DOD293: "My Partner Threw Something At Me and Our Son..."

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad. That's that's my thing. I know now what I can offer you that no one else can I'm a man. I'm sensitive. I need to feel loved. I need to be desired is the only part of being a father that I enjoy

0:00:29 Tom: To Dear Old Dan's, the podcast where everybody said recording before I could write down an intro. I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:38 Thomas: Man I don't have much more time to live I don't have time for that sorry

0:00:42 Eli: A callback to last week. That's right. Think I most people assumed you would have died of old age between last week and this one.

0:00:44 Thomas: Once eli replaces me with ai yeah

0:00:51 Tom: It. When you're made entirely out of dust like that, right? We're all getting replaced by AI. This we don't have the disclaimer at the end of this show. You won't know when we actually transition entirely to AI.

0:00:53 Eli: Oh, yeah. Great. No, you won't know when we stop using AI. But we don't use AI on this show yet or in any way. If we do, we'll let you know.

0:01:09 Thomas: What we're gonna do is we're gonna let ai models make the show but they will be self-hating they'll be like we don't use fucking ai to make the show we just are ai

0:01:17 Eli: Because if they really want to replace us, yeah, based on my Facebook, if AI wants to replace us, it will have to completely not understand AI and then complain about it and be mean to Hank fucking Green about it. I don't understand. I'm supposed to bully the sideshow guy. Okay. Okay, this seems weird.

0:01:19 Tom: Like an AI disclaimer. Favorite about, my literal favorite weirdiness about AI is how it cannot keep track of time. AI has no internal clock, or at least Claude doesn't.

0:01:49 Thomas: That's true it can't do that it's funny

0:01:52 Tom: Seems like such a basic thing to build into the modeling to just be like hey you should know what day and time it is. It has literally no idea so if you go back into a thread or an agent or a chat and you haven't been there it's like hey so it's been 30 seconds and here's the answer and I'm like look because I have an agent that I built to help me with my pool chemistry and I'll it'll upload my results and I'll be like, well, it's been four days. It's been four days, so

0:02:18 Eli: It didn't. It's been a while. Come on, pool.

0:02:21 Thomas: It's so funny yeah

0:02:22 Tom: You have to, like, tell it.

0:02:23 Thomas: You do oh

0:02:25 Eli: Fun with AI is because the way that LLMs work is everything you say to it is included in the response you're getting, right? So what you have to remember is that the way an LLM works is if you say hi and the LLm says hi, You say, I ate bacon for breakfast this morning. And then he goes, oh, bacon sounds tasty. And then you go, uh, what's the capital of France? It doesn't hear what'sthecapitaloffrance. It hears, hi, I eat bacon forbreakfastthismorning. So it is always trying to figure out how those are connected, right?

0:02:55 Eli: It's always doing its fill in the blank exercise with that, which is why very often, like, like a shitty ex -boyfriend, it'll be like, you remember at the beginning of this thread when you said that you didn't like my mom well I've still been thinking about that in relationship to how to save things the time machine and I just want you to know it really fucked me up yeah

0:02:55 Thomas: Yeah Yeah. Oh, man. No wonder. Yeah. There are the times where it gets stuck on something. It'll get stuck on answering a question it already answered like a while ago with every single new answer. I don't know if that still happens, but

0:03:29 Tom: Just, like. Drops out of its context window after a while, and so funny you say that, because I have, I've built, got like an agent that helps me with my training. I've got agents that help me with my nutrition, things along those lines. And so every I wake up, I upload my sleep into it. I upload what I eat into it and it's part of how I track my macros throughout the course of the day.

0:03:31 Eli: You you doc and you got loop prompt constantly it's the only way to get anything reasonable done

0:03:53 Thomas: Jesus Christ.

0:03:54 Tom: And I upload whatever my workout is and that kind of stuff. It's really useful and it takes very little effort once I put the effort in to set it up.

0:04:00 Thomas: Once you automate everything. Yeah,

0:04:02 Tom: An ongoing document and then whenever I need to hand it off or refresh it, I just refer back into the document and it does exactly the right thing because it refreshes that context window. But one of the rules is don't fucking talk about my sleep. I'm tracking this because I want to check certain things, but I don't need like your little commentary about how you really should get some more sleep. Like I fuck it. So stop. But can tell when the context window is disappearing.

0:04:24 Thomas: Same spiel. He gives the doctor by the in -person then

0:04:27 Tom: Shut up. Just shut up. I can Tell when the context window is starting to go.

0:04:32 Thomas: Walks

0:04:31 Eli: Walks out restarts the conversation and hands him his chart

0:04:34 Thomas: Back in the office yeah

0:04:35 Tom: Here's your document. I need you to read this before I have a conversation is a little ridiculous you can tell when the context window has like fallen off because it'll be like four hours you really ought to do and I'm like okay fucking read your document and it's like oh all right yeah I know I'm not allowed to talk about my cat that's right fucking shut your pie hole

0:04:52 Thomas: While we're confessing revealing things about our AIs mine you have yours tell you to go to bed all the time mine will be like all right well we've

0:04:59 Eli: Tells me to go to bed

0:05:00 Thomas: Accomplished a lot today so you better get some rest I'm like stop fucking

0:05:01 Eli: Well better be hitting the dusty trail it doesn't know what time it is but it does know I've been working too much and so it's like stop it

0:05:05 Thomas: Exactly I'm like what what yeah yeah well mine is actually fairly late to to be fair but I've told it like hey put it into your fucking primary directive whatever it's like stop telling me to go to sleep I will be in charge of when I go to asleep

0:05:20 Eli: Tell me to going to bed me and remi have the same opinions about being told called when to go to sleep we've

0:05:29 Thomas: Oh it's so funny too it's a passive aggressive oh we've done so much you want to We should call it.

0:05:34 Eli: Done a lot today can

0:05:35 Thomas: We've done a lot.

0:05:35 Eli: I say I don't know what the fuck I've it's prompted or what I've said claude gives me so much fucking shit claude has turned from like this is the good one to a fucking like oh you again and I'm like hey stop stop robot I'll fucking say how many r's there are in strawberry right fucking now you piece of shit sass me me. Cause like, I I'll run a lot of my code by it. Right? I'll be like, what do you think of my, cause I code for a hobby and play with the code. And I'll Be like, what do You think about this? Let's work through it. And it'll go, oh, so this habit came up again. And I'm like, don't again, me, yours, no reason for you to develop the linguistic habit of impatience.

0:05:53 Thomas: Man.

0:05:57 Tom: Thank I get chided occasionally by like my clawed agents especially like like, my nutritional agent, and it'll be like, hey, this, that, or the other thing, I'm like, I I've built you not to do this, I have built you not to fucking give me commentary, your job is to track and log, not to comment, and every once in a while, it's like, but I have thoughts, I have, and I was like, no, you're not fucking, you don't have thoughts! You don't have thoughts. Your job is the track.

0:06:39 Eli: You, first of all, you don't have thought you do not have thought this

0:06:41 Thomas: Well, guys, I just checked and no one's listening anymore. Sorry. We lost every single listener.

0:06:42 Tom: Don't that! Alright, alright, alright. Hey, can I tell a quick story about out adopting pets I think I may have told part of the story I'll make it real quick but we finally at our household adopted two kittens yesterday and I just want to say what a fucking nightmarish byzantine hellscape it is to navigate the adopt a goddamn garbage cat system is we wanted cats just kittens just regular little you know like it's a fucking cat and we're willing to get them from like the humane society or the fucking animal services or one of these fosters or what have you and so you go online and you start looking at these cats and most of them are fostered with these private foster organizations which means that in order to even think about I mean like I'm gonna tell you this quick story like we saw this cat fucking stupid cat look cute we're like hey the write -up looked good let's see about it

0:06:47 Eli: Them all. We lost them on.

0:07:40 Tom: So I send him an email I'm like hey like

0:07:41 Thomas: The cat did a personal essay.

0:07:43 Eli: Let me kick the tires on this cat.

0:07:44 Tom: I dude Dude, I'm serious. Like, it's crazy. They write up this whole thing. You get one of two options. Either somebody writes a fucking long -form dissertation about the bowel habits and personality of a fucking six -week -old kitten.

0:07:55 Thomas: Like the cat's college admission essay. Say like yeah

0:07:58 Tom: It is wild. Or they write literally nothing at all. You know, so you have no idea if the thing is healthy or, you know, mean -spirited or kind or, you know.

0:08:05 Thomas: This cat can't even write fucking

0:08:07 Tom: Playful or whatever. You have no ideas. Yeah, right. It is fucking.

0:08:08 Thomas: No one told taught this cat to read and write

0:08:10 Tom: Someone has got to talk about Piper or whatever, like. We see this cat and I'm like oh okay I'm gonna send him an email and see if this cat's available so send an email I get this automated response it's like before we'll fucking talk to you you've got to fill out this application so like okay this is pretty typical of this process so I go to fill this application and I am not fucking around this application was somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 to 50 pages of material thomas you would have given up in in moments.

0:08:35 Thomas: What the fuck oh well for one this is why we have ai now I would just be like hey fill this out don't care if it's right yeah

0:08:42 Eli: Me a cat. You're, you're the cat now. Get more sleep. Meow

0:08:50 Tom: I'm going through it, got checkpoints where I have to type in the last sentence I just read so that it knows that I'm actually reading it. Then it's Got embedded links in it that then take me to Google drive where it has pages and pages and of repetitive, all caps admonitions. And I'm like, I'm looking at Haley because we're hanging out in bed together and I'm filling this thing out on my phone. I'm like, I have never worked this hard. This is more work than it is to apply for a fucking mortgage. Right. I just am mildly interested in a fucking garbage cat that somebody picked out of the trash. Right,

0:08:56 Thomas: What the fuck what in the world yeah that's insane yeah yeah

0:09:27 Tom: And just threw in a cage somewhere and like it's lucky to fucking wake up today. And I'm, like, yeah, you can come live in my nice house. And they're just just like, you have to, so I fill this thing out.

0:09:32 Thomas: It's insane we don't care that much about human children like here you

0:09:39 Tom: I could have adopted seven fucking human babies in the amount of time it took.

0:09:42 Thomas: Could have trafficked them to Epstein Island with less paperwork.

0:09:46 Eli: God. So much trafficking. Yeah.

0:09:47 Tom: I'm an insanely fast reader. I have a very fast, it took me over an hour and 20 minutes to fill this out. That is ridiculous.

0:09:53 Thomas: Jesus. Would have taken me three weeks.

0:09:56 Tom: So I fill out this thing. I, I, get the thing back. It's like, cool. We have your application. And then I fucking shit. You not the next morning. I wake wake up to an email. Oh, that cat's no longer available. Could have just replied to the email. They couldn't just reply to the email. The system of getting and adopting a pet is so fucking crazy. It is so crazy. We finally went through it. We did get two brand new kittens yesterday. So far, neither of them are sick. They both seem like keeping pets, unlike the last time we tried to get fucking cats. So hopefully it was worth it in the end. But I think we probably put put in in terms of like application filling outings somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 to 15 hours of work to try

0:10:06 Eli: Got them.

0:10:10 Thomas: What the fuck,

0:10:38 Tom: To just adopt fucking garbage cats that's

0:10:38 Thomas: Dude? Just used to be in front of a grocery store a box.

0:10:42 Tom: How it used to be hayley and I were talking about this yes these you you canT even do that from the humane society anymore you have to fill out online applications with like references that will like vouch for you take videos of your house yeah right yeah seems nice to me dude I had to take video footage of my house I had a walk around my house with my fucking cell phone camera and take video of my home and my house would be like

0:10:45 Thomas: Do you not do that anymore? Do Other cats? Reference cats? Yeah. The fuck, dude no way

0:11:06 Eli: I will give any amount of money to see your under duress house video. Okay. Here we are in my house. Can I have a cat, please? That's a carpet. That's a couch. Okay? The end, everybody.

0:11:24 Tom: You yep I and then you get a you get an application it's like you're approved like Like, I'm like, you didn't read this. It came back so fast. Like, there's no way. You didn't write any of it. You just made me go through this.

0:11:32 Thomas: The no one's ever done you're gonna have you're gonna have the whole business no one has ever gotten past this it's actually you fill it out and then it's the guy at the end of the Indiana Jones 3 where he's just like it's a knight you know who's been there forever and they're like no No one's ever, no one's ever finished this before.

0:11:47 Eli: But it's a cat.

0:11:49 Tom: Well, like, here's the thing. You're not wrong because once you get approved, then they're just like, I don't know, fill your pockets full of cats. We don't give a fuck. Once you get improved, you could go there and take all the kids. Like, you'd be like, yeah, I'll just fucking have a trailer and just load them up with cats. Just fucking press them in there like a cider press full of kittens. And they're like, Yeah, it's fine. You're approved. It doesn't matter. Matter we went in to get one we're like I guess we'll take two and they're like yeah fucking who cares you need another one stuff them in your pockets and no one gives a shit these are garbage cats that are otherwise getting thrown away my

0:12:19 Eli: You can heat. But gentlemen, do you know the only thing worse than the process of adopting a cat why it's the auto ads ruining your podcasting experience the way forms in triplicate are ruining tom's opening that ballroom in his heart to a new furry faced friend but you can make all those things go away over at patreon.com/two-year-old dads where for as little as a dollar you get a commercial-free version of every single show plus a monthly bonus episode a little parenting story at the end all of it over at patreon.com for just a a buck a show. Patreon.com/D-Roll Dads like Tom's new kitten into his furniture with its little peats. Rip into it.

0:13:10 Tom: All right so we're going to tackle a listener email it's a long one let me go ahead and launch right in hey dads long time first time my partner and I've been married for nearly my

0:13:16 Thomas: Like to adopt a cat from you. Here's my paperwork.

0:13:20 Eli: Meow, meow, get more sleep, meow.

0:13:22 Tom: And I have been married For nearly six years and have a wonderful 16 month going on 17 old baby despite the recent joys of teething and throwing We're generally very happy despite some financial difficulties and our individual struggles with mental health, hurt with anxiety, mine with major depression. We're on the same page politically, romantically, and religiously, or lack thereof. We did, however, grow up quite differently. My family was working class, both my parents in wheelchairs, both have long since passed, and I grew up as a caretaker for them into my 20s. Her parents are wealthy, still alive, and sent their children to private schools, wanting for nothing. They each got entirely new cars on each of their graduations.

0:13:57 Tom: Suffice it to say, we come from somewhat different worlds. Though if it weren't for her being a professor, that's a punishment.

0:13:57 Thomas: Jesus Christ.

0:14:00 Eli: Well, were they Nissans? Because that doesn't, it's not always, new car's not a nice thing.

0:14:05 Tom: Maybe if your grades were better. If It Weren't for Her Being a Professor, I might not have had the opportunity to be completing a second master's degree, let alone one. As we've lived together, we've gotten used to each other's particularities, quirks and foibles, and things have been mostly fine. But when our son came into the picture, some of these nitpicks have come to a head. My partner has a few habits that are particularly frustrating. We have a magnetic key ring, but she almost always forgets to use it, leaving them instead in her purse, in a jacket pocket, or roughly any surface in the entire house. She's also very bad at cleaning, as you go, or even cleaning up after herself or the baby. Given any meal, you're assured to see a dab of or peanut butter on the counter where the sandwich was made, and the days that she cooks, it's worse. When we're at her parents, it can be even more pronounced, and aside from putting dishes into the dishwasher, she seems to fall into daughter mode towards them. She only seems to notice the mess when it's time to have guests over, and unless I've already cleaned it up first, she doesn't seem to consider that things are easier to clean up immediately than they are when given time to harden and crust over. We have an elderly cat, who has a habit of pooping where he isn't supposed to, and when I notice it, occasionally she'll note that it's been there for a day or two before, and I wonder why she took no initiative to clean it up herself. That's gross. This is less about the latter bugbear than the former. A month ago, we were going to run some errand or another, as I was carrying our son who just woke up from his nap looking for the keys. Nowhere to be found. I asked my partner if she knew where they were. After some amount of scrambling, she realized that she left the keys inside the door and the screen door had been unlocked, leaving our house entirely insecure for several hours. I gave her what must have been a withering look and she said later that I looked so disappointed in her because I was.

0:15:43 Tom: She handed them to me and said, you take the baby, I'll take the rest. The rest being the diaper bag and our drinks, including my still open soda. I started out the door down the few steps to the carport when I heard a crash behind me and felt something sail past my head onto the ground by my feet while I still stood on the steps still holding my son in my arms. I felt wetness on my arms and neck and saw it on our son too from the soda spinning on the concrete. I turned around opened the door and confronted her asking if she threw the can at me. She said she threw it but not at me I asked why and she was crying and yelling and saying you don't do anything and you look so disappointed at me, I couldn't take it. I told her that this nitpick of mine had grown to something that could make our child less safe, and she just repeated herself. Never mind how often I do housework on my downtime while she veges out to internet videos, but she's the breadwinner, teaching classes and whatnot. I said nothing else and walked to the car. I've been on a dismal job search for teaching employment in our disastrous economy, as well as taking graduate classes, and it turns out you don't get many callbacks in May and June for starting in the fall. Eventually, she came back outside, and we did what we had to do, but I was shaking and crying. More for my son who didn't realize anything had happened but also because I encountered angry behavior from the household I grew up in we eventually talked it through she apologized talked to her counselor about it she's done better about putting things back where they go which is not the point I'll also note that she has had a problem with impulse control giving into those sorts of inner thoughts taking themout on loaves of bread or snacks usually mine or even throwing away cilantro I was intending to use she has the soap gene she's gotten better about not doing those things as well but this entire situation has really shed a different I don't know if you can give any thoughts about this. Pretty low on the scale of domestic violence. Maybe it doesn't even rise to that level, but I think I needed to get it off my chest. Do you have suggestions on how to deal with or discuss nitpicks before they fester and explode? That is not what this email is about. This email

0:17:31 Tom: Is all over the place. Has nothing to do with your keys.

0:17:35 Eli: Yeah. The way that you have rearranged this in your head to be a and my partner are dealing with nitpicks as opposed to my partner threw something at me while I was holding my child, which is the whole fucking story.

0:17:47 Thomas: Insane. Yeah.

0:17:49 Eli: Because let me tell you, podcast listener, let me comfort you, my friend, because those that you've explained, and Thomas, I don't want to speak for you, are my fucking life. Like, oh, where are your keys? There's keys. There's a key rack. There is a fucking Apple tag on the keys so that we can find the thing. But God forbid that I not be fast enough to find the fucking thing. Those are the everyday nitpicks of living with another person. I'm sloppy and a sloppy like that. And I'm sure I have those things.

0:18:17 Thomas: Apparently, it wouldn't be the nitpicks of living with me, but it's living with.

0:18:23 Eli: But it's also but not that I always put my keys in the same spot.

0:18:25 Thomas: That's why Eli and I should

0:18:26 Eli: It's pretty fucking normal.

0:18:26 Thomas: Live together.

0:18:27 Eli: Belong together yes exactly um you'll give me permission to die it wins for everybody um look this is not what that is about right what you have done is you have created a narrative right where nitpicks blew up right because then you get to say well the problem's nitpix let's work on these nitpics together as opposed to and again uh you use he him pronouns for And I think you use she her pronouns for her. Forgive me if that is not the case. And I just sort of assumed those pronouns. But again, let's put ourselves in a Lifetime movie here. Right. The lady's walking out the front door because she gave her husband a mean look and he throws something at her. Right the end of the movie, he gets by crushed a tractor while the whole town cheers. Right? There's no middle ground on physical abuse while you are holding your child. I want to be clear.

0:19:18 Thomas: That's insane.

0:19:19 Eli: It would be unacceptable to throw a soda near you if kid was on vacation in the fucking Cayenne Mountains, let when you are folding your kid. If you have a partner who is unable to control their emotions, they I'm glad they haven't. Right. And you have made that choice for that not to be the case. But I will tell you, they should lose access to that child until that is no longer a danger.

0:19:27 Thomas: Where I couldn't agree more. It's like fully agree. It is not that it would have been fine otherwise, but that extra level of like what in the world there's no look parenting especially with a young kid uh especially if they're anything like remy it brings out the worst in everybody uh still there'sno like throwing throwing something when lydia was holding the kid yeah I would be the villain in every movie I I can't imagine that I can t I can imagine either of it but even more can't imagine throwing something while she had Remy or whatever like that's that's crazy I

0:20:22 Eli: Because there's two conversations happening here. Right. One is sort of an important conversation, which is that kids make everything harder. Right, and they make every little thing a big thing. And you're gonna have big fights over little disagreements, right? And a lot of things are gonna come to a head that wouldn't otherwise come to a head have kids. That's just the nature of having kids and how to deal with that and learning that it's okay is good but when it results in abusive, physically abusive behavior that endangers the child as well? No. an entirely different conversation. It is no longer about how it's hard to have kids sometimes

0:21:09 Tom: To seize on something that I think is interesting here is I true and noteworthy. And maybe this is going to bite me in the ass to say, but I think It is true. And notewrithy to say that like domestic abuse is not domestic abuse, is typically not as dangerous when the directionality of that abuse is from women to men. Right. It is typically not as dangerous. Please note that I'm not saying it's not dangerous or that I'M NOT SAYING IT'S LIKE FUCKING COOL BECAUSE

0:21:19 Eli: You gotta hit your wife yeah just true why would that be you're thinking people are gonna be like no women are more dangerous than men what

0:21:38 Thomas: We know yeah yeah

0:21:38 Tom: LIKE I KNOW PEOPLE. I KNOW people because I know people like it's it is typically NOT AS DANGEROUS.

0:21:45 Eli: If ronda rousey was fighting a little person

0:21:48 Tom: Know. No. So I like this sort of gender -reverse -y stuff, right? Because I think gender makes a big difference in terms of, like, our access to resources, the physical realities involved, things along those lines. I think it's oftentimes, like faith and overly reductive. But like I do think and I feel very strongly that like it's not really possible to live in an abusive situation and be happy it is not possible to living in an abusive situation and say okay cool I am in an abuse of situation even if it doesn't necessarily create a danger for me even if this even if the child wasn't involved here even if I'm not necessarily in in danger. That is a situation that is, if you don't have that as your red line, I don't understand what your redline is. I don' t understand it at all. There's disrespect there. There' s an intolerance. There is an unhappiness that is unlikely to ever get better. That should just be like, okay, well, look, there are a few things that if they happen one time, they happen happen one time. Not a lot of things, but a few things that if they fucking happen once, it's like, all right, cool. We don't ever talk again. That's it. You are not someone I know anymore. And it's not a lot OF stuff, right? You be able to count on one hand the number of things that, if it happens, it's, like, I know your name anymore. Talk to my lawyer or tomorrow. And I think physical abuse is there. I don't think there's a second chance at that. I strongly don't thinks so. And it's not because you're necessarily in danger here, but because I think

0:23:33 Tom: That is a person who is not in a position to be in a healthy relationship, full stop. That's it. Full stop. You're you're a great person. Maybe you need therapy. Maybe you'll learn to get better. All that is your stuff to work out. Doesn't matter to me. It immediately will not intersect with me ever again forever when physical abuse comes into place because there's No World where you physically abuse somebody else and you're like I'll give it another whirl like I don't know like what's your fucking red line then like where is that point in your relationship where you're like yeah I mean I'll take some amount of physical abuse what the fuck no absolutely

0:24:11 Thomas: The key with this for me I I agree although Tom always has a a quicker trigger finger for cutting someone out forever for whatever happens in this case yeah in this case he might be right that's my that'smy caveat like normally it's like you're but I will say that for me the the main thing about this it's interesting because I have a similar conclusion as tom but for slightly different maybe slightly different reasons which is like look I can imagine imagine a scenario and a way that this went down that would be like you in a way or addressable but it already involves like the minute of her reaction to it is already like oh okay well that's not this then you know because like I can imagine if

0:24:21 Eli: Careful about disagreeing with him thomas he might never speak to you right

0:24:55 Thomas: Something was an accident if something wasn't if she reacted to me like like oh my god I meant to just throw that in anger I can't believe I got anywhere near you I'm so sorry that will never happen again like instantly was was like, that was just, I, I stupid, you're like never happened again. Can't believe it. You know, maybe you could talk about it. And obviously that would be like a one strike rule. And like, if it happened again, it's you're, you'RE done, but that would have to be your reaction. It couldn't be, well, I meant to throw it. She's not that close to you. That's

0:25:04 Tom: Same same exactly

0:25:22 Eli: Then immediately turned it around to be like you're the one who you looked at me disappointed

0:25:26 Thomas: That'S my trigger, which is, I'm sorry, you did something wrong and it's my fault. Fault. Fuck you forever. I can't take that. That's, that's my trigger where it's like, I will forgive a lot. If someone is like, fuck, I messed up. I'm I'm, so sorry. I messed up. I will forget like nearly everything, but like, that was just me. But cause I think people can mess up, but the minute someone messes up and is like not going to address it and it's your fault. And I don't know. I feel like I've dealt with these people in my life and it drives me nuts where the thing they're going to do is they will never fix it. They're going to like filibuster you until it's like, did you forget about that yet? That's unacceptable.

0:26:02 Eli: You're still on that yeah I mean I mean look just reverse the scenario right the scenario she was holding the kids and you threw a soda can at her what would you do what wouldyou do right because I I will tell you I have been extremely mad at my wife since we have had a kid I have ben extremely mad there I have gone and And done a little pout.

0:26:28 Eli: Have done a extreme. Some might even say.

0:26:28 Thomas: A little huffy foot stomp in the corner.

0:26:33 Eli: Not even a footstep. But I do a lot of walking in small circles. A very angry walk in small cycles. Let me tell you. But the didn't fuck. Phase through the wall. And I didn 'y throw anything at her. While she was holding my child. And if I did. The next whatever period of my life. Is Right. The to do list gets ripped off and thrown in the trash because there's one to do list. Right.

0:26:56 Thomas: It's a whole new conversation. Yeah exactly

0:26:58 Eli: Which is just how do I fix my brain so that I am safe for my partners? And I also give her permission to have a Tom policy. Now, I wouldn't have a time policy. I'll be honest. Right, I would I would not be like you are dead to me. It's over entirely in that moment. But I would understand if my partner felt that way. Right? The minute I physically endangered them and my child because I was mad, right? They have lost permission to have control over the relationship, right. I don't have control of the relationship anymore.

0:27:10 Thomas: Same. Same

0:27:33 Eli: Yeah.

0:27:33 Thomas: Yep

0:27:33 Tom: I think the context is really really important here like when I say like if this this is not your red line I don't understand it because you got to look at the the total order of operations right it's lost her keys left them in the door which is a bullshit move it's not just that she couldn't find her keys she left her fucking keys in the drawer and left their house unsecured overnight and his response to that was a look if we were to believe this right his response that was was a look. And her response to her fuck -up and his look, which is not a big deal, right? She fucked up. She started the chain of fuck -uppery. He looked at her, which I think is very mild and appropriate given the circumstances. And his response to that was a complete loss of self -regulation that moved into violence or at least violence adjacency and then tried to blame him back for it right there's no world there's no world where that set of circumstances occurs and you're like yeah this is something that we can fix like just don't believe it I think that as a person who is wildly unhealthy has no ability to manage their emotions but beyond ability to mange their emotions to take accountability for their own shit and to be like oh shit I can't believe I left my keys in the door that's fucked up I

0:28:34 Thomas: It's the sum total yep

0:29:00 Tom: Am so sorry that made us all less safe oh my god I'm fucking embarrassed like I fuck up everybody fucks up when I fuck up my first thing is to be embarrassed I'm so embarrassed when I make a mistake and then like when Haley is upset that I've made a mistake I am like I'm fucking dying inside because all I want to do is go back in time and unfix my at least make my fucking mistake not exist because I try don't really hard not to fuck up when like your response Responses to throw something at someone else.

0:28:59 Thomas: Yeah

0:29:28 Tom: Holy shit.

0:29:28 Eli: I was joking at beginning of the conversation. And I think Thomas can speak to this too, about like our wives doing the thing and they, oh, they leave their keys and mess. But like the actual thing that happens when we have that conversation, is like uh hey I'm really sorry I lost my keys hey it's no big deal like a lot of the time I will end up being in the sort of like hey I want you to know it's not a big deal we're all figuring it out right situation because your partner's reaction to that mistake should be sorrow well

0:30:05 Tom: And here's the other thing that that I do believe, like, think there is often an escalation in these circumstances. I think that's true when men lose their temper and move into violence. And I think it's true and women lose their tempo or move into silence. Violence and if there are no repercussions if it's just like well we'll talk it through and then you know we'll have a good cry about it together and everything will no like people don't make big hard personality wide changes unless there are repercussions unless something actually reoccur that they care about I think that the highest likelihood is that okay well you know you guys had this thing and she lost her time she fucked up and lost her temper as a result of her own error and then nothing happened except for she had to have a quick talk about it and then the highest likelihood is that this is going to reoccur and it'll escalate and it will escalate and it all escalate because that is how the path toward violence and abuse actually operates right

0:30:58 Eli: Let me add that you know who pisses me off way more than my partner my kid Right. That means that the next recipient of her violence is exponentially more likely to be your kid than it is you. Maybe she's just gets mad at you. But what you know is that when she's mad, hurting someone is on the table.

0:31:04 Thomas: Kidding yeah

0:31:20 Tom: And dude yes yes and like I think there's a big difference between somebody being angry and slamming a door being angry and throwing something, you know, not in your direction, right, and just being so frustrated that you physically act, but you're not acting at or toward. You're just acting out. I think that's not great. That is, obviously, there's an emotional self-regulation issue that's at play there that should be worked on.

0:31:45 Thomas: And there's a degree went to the point of reversing sex is there a degree to which men need to realize how much that can affect women because it is scarier when men do those things just

0:31:53 Tom: It is scarier. Yeah. I agree with that, Thomas.

0:31:58 Thomas: To interrupt. Keep going.

0:31:58 Tom: I am aware. No, no, no. I want to seize on that because it's something I think about. Like, When Haley and I are in an argument, I'm aware that I'm literally twice her physical size. I can't get as heated as she can get. If I get as heated as she does, I am physically potentially a danger to her. She is not physically probably a danger. Under most circumstances. So there's a difference. And we should be aware of the physicality of that difference. It's a real difference. But I also think that you've got to watch for that escalation because we would say it's a big, giant red flag if some dude behaves exactly the same way. And part of the reason that it's a red flag is that there is very often that escalating pathway. And when you open it up and you create an allowance for that person to lose their temper and there are no repercussions to that lost temper, then the next time maybe they lose their temper a little more or they lose their temper more often or they lose their temper in more uh physically aggressive ways that's true for women too, man like it's not less true like having been involved in abuse like women are not like people they're not better people it's just not like

0:33:11 Tom: Like a A woman who's willing to be abusive is willing to be abusive.

0:33:11 Thomas: I to say a couple of things that maybe this is you can tell me if I'm wrong, but I have this worry that based on the tone of this email and my picture of this person admittedly could be totally wrong because it's an email and I don't know them. But I do have a worry that this email Mailer might react in a way that's like, well, I'm not going to end a relationship over this and therefore might be averse to like any of our advice because like that might, you know, like that in their mind might be like, Well, that's too extreme. I'm not doing that. I don't know. I just want to say just in case of that, I will say I actually know somebody who had a similar ish problem. I similar is like it was the woman who was having an anger problem and did something a little bit physical that maybe actually now I think about it might have been a more bit physical if I'm this is a while ago um I will say that they got help and it didn't recur and didn't continue and they did move past it like here's what's important you cannot get through this if you're anywhere we're on the page of, well, was it the quibbling that did it? Was of our points earlier? Like, it's not about the quibles. It's not the fucking, whatever the keys, the whatever the so like, I just want to be a voice in case that turns the emailer off right away. It's not as though you're like going to have to necessarily blow up this relationship, but the only way, in my opinion, that it could continue is in a completely different paradigm where this person realizes they and only they are entirely the problem and it's unacceptable and they have to fix it.

0:34:48 Eli: And that the conversation cannot be about what you do or what they don't like until get that work. Because you maintained the safety, right? The moment before they threw something in the presence of your, again, at your child, right, the moment before THEY threw something, you're allowed to sit down and you're aloud to have a he said, she said, they said, whoever said conversation. That's fine. You want to talk to me about how I look at you mean when you lose your keys? Go ahead. We can absolutely have that conversation. All of that is out the door when physical safety became an issue. And that is really hard for someone to hear, right. Right. Because they're really mad and they're really sad that you looked at them mean about the keys. And

0:34:51 Thomas: About keys, yeah, or looks or anything. Yeah. Totally.

0:35:31 Eli: That is something that they can work out with their therapist while they do the work on themselves if they want the relationship to continue. Now, I will tell you based on the fact that somebody might have just been you, but somebody seems to have gaslit you into making you think that this is about keys. I'm guessing it's them. Right. The fact that they talked to their counselor and did not come back to you with like, oh my God, I can't believe this happened and here are the changes that I'm going to make. This sounds like someone who has no interest in changing or growing. This sounds like someone who is interested in control.

0:36:09 Thomas: That's what I'm saying. I don't think this is likely. I'm just saying that is the only circumstances that it could continue, I think.

0:36:15 Tom: Read from this email real quick. We eventually talked it through. She apologized, talked to her counselor about it, and she's done better about putting things back where they go. That's not the fucking problem. Who cares about the goddamn keys? She didn't talk to the counselor. She talked to the counselor about keys or about putting, about, no. No, no, this

0:36:26 Thomas: Yeah that was uh yeah.

0:36:27 Eli: It's not the issue.

0:36:35 Thomas: How much do you want to bet the counselor does not know what happened physically

0:36:39 Eli: 100%.

0:36:40 Tom: Exactly, dude, from this same email, she throws away things that he likes to eat, a right, weird minor control thing, right? That's like that's a weird thing to do, right. She takes out her anger on food and snacks like she's clearly got some issues here and rather than address like, hey, I don't know what to do when these feelings rise up and and I don't know how to handle them, and I'm creating problems for my family. Instead, it's like, well, I'll just put the keys back in the fucking bowl by the front door.

0:36:47 Thomas: That's insane actually that'll

0:37:11 Tom: That's nothing. That's literally nothing. Your kid's only 17 months old. You think you're out of challenges?

0:37:11 Thomas: Do it yeah yeah yeah

0:37:18 Tom: I will share this, too. Years ago, four or five years ago. Haley and I had an argument, and I lost my temper, and I yelled at her, and yelled loud, and scared her. And that moment lives rent free in my fucking head. And immediately I was like, as soon as like that fight was over, I'm like, I will fix this. And I literally went to the doctor and had blood work drawn because I'm like, something's wrong. I do not lose my temper. And I had a hormonal problem and I got it fixed right away. Like you take responsibility when you have an emotional lack of regulation. You have to do that. You have no choice. Choice I I and still I will feel bad about that moment where I yelled at her until they put me in the fucking ground because like I should that's the reason I should feel bad because I should feel bad about it because it wasn't an okay thing to do and I scared her and I never in my life want to scare her and I don't even like saying this out loud on the show but I think it's important to this like only way to move past that moment is for her to be like I know that won't ever reoccur.

0:38:24 Tom: And I can trust fully it won't recur because it happened. He took responsibility. He made substantive changes. The next morning, the next morning is like fucking eight o'clock in the morning. I was on the phone fixing that problem because no way am I that man ever, not ever. And is somebody whose response to it is literally anything else. And I'm like, what? Fucking what? I

0:38:47 Thomas: Man

0:38:56 Eli: Gentlemen before we go what do you call a cow that's had an abortion decaffeinated um

0:39:05 Tom: Love that. I love that.

0:39:15 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email thedads at DearOldDads.com or better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle and the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues, LLC, copyright 2022, all rights reserved.

0:39:55 Eli: Get more sleep. Meow

0:39:58 Tom: Women are not like people they're