DOD288: Childfree By Choice, with Cecil Cicirello

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad, that's my thing I know now what I can offer you that no one else can Complete and under-dependent I'm a man, I'm sensitive I need to feel loved, I need part of being a father that I enjoy

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that doesn't need Eli anyway. I'm Tom Curry, and I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith, and as once -ly, twice -ly by Cecil.

0:00:39 Thomas: Oh, yeah, he was the host.

0:00:40 Cecil: I was on a bonus episode as well. I, I was Drew Carey for your bonus episode one time. I was. Points didn't matter.

0:00:43 Tom: You were Drew Carey for our bonus episode with the wives, yeah.

0:00:47 Thomas: Don't say that. Nobody's ever Drew Carey, but Drew Care. Don't don't still put yourself down. I thought he sucked. Didn't didn't somebody say he sucked the other day? I don't know. Didn't this come up? Yeah.

0:00:51 Tom: Is Drew Care a problem? I don't know. I don' want him to suck though.

0:00:58 Cecil: So many people are problems.

0:01:00 Tom: Yeah, I guess you just have to assume, right?

0:01:03 Cecil: Everybody's just a problem. Yeah.

0:01:03 Tom: Does he have a podcast? Does he has a podcast, because I think...

0:01:04 Thomas: Oh, wow. That's a great question because everybody does so.

0:01:09 Tom: Right, yeah, everybody...

0:01:10 Thomas: Remember when the thing we did that we counted on, I guess, Cecil and I for our living. Remember when like not every single person did it imagine if you sold any product like you were like a vacuum salesman and then one day you look up and literally everyone is selling each other vacuums like all day like that day you're at lunch and everyone has their vacuum oh by the way this is my vacuum do you want it and you're like no I

0:01:18 Cecil: Nobody did it.

0:01:38 Tom: And like 80 % of those vacuums oppress brown people. I don't know how that works either, but it's weird.

0:01:41 Cecil: Yeah, and they all came with Cutco knives.

0:01:44 Thomas: There's one racist who has like a billion billion dollars and 7,000 vacuums that's just sitting there like, oh, you can just take them. You just take, everybody take all these vacuums. You're like, fuck, man.

0:01:54 Cecil: The user manual's in Russian. I don't even understand it.

0:01:57 Tom: I think that vacuum might be a rapist. That's crazy.

0:02:03 Cecil: Amazing. Yeah.

0:02:01 Thomas: Well, I thought, Cecil, I though while you're here, we could plan our buddy vacation since Eli's not here. We could be like, hey, where are we going to go?

0:02:10 Cecil: Let's figure something out. Yeah.

0:02:12 Tom: We should all go somewhere.

0:02:12 Cecil: Tahiti? How's Tahiti sound, guys? Tahiti sounds amazing, right? Get me underwater soon, so we got to do it soon.

0:02:14 Thomas: That sounds great.

0:02:18 Tom: Wait, we got to look up like a vegan paradise. This is what we've got to do.

0:02:22 Cecil: Oh, that's so mean.

0:02:22 Tom: We've got we've Got to look like where is like vegan, like the greatest vegan vacation. We should go on it without Eli and just send him pictures of it. Glad you weren't here.

0:02:25 Thomas: That's too mean. Do you think Tom learned to be more evil from his mom? I'm just wondering, Cecil, do you have more insight? Because that's the most evil thing I've ever heard in my life.

0:02:40 Cecil: It's so, it really is something else. Yeah.

0:02:45 Thomas: Good times. Well, I thought it would be really cool because you are a cool and willing participant. And we frequently on the show, well, I do anyway, people will be like, oh, I was going to listen to it, but I don't have kids. And I, every time I say like, Hey, this is actually, it's a show about if you have kids or if you ever were a kid, which I think covers most people. Yeah.

0:03:03 Tom: It covers a lot of people yeah or covers them

0:03:04 Cecil: That's a lot of people, it turns out. Yeah.

0:03:06 Thomas: And, and I thought, Oh, Eli couldn't make it today. So we're thinking like, it'd be really cool to talk to someone who's child free by choice and kind of switch it up on the show and talk about like that end of the kind of decision tree or whatever. Ever. And ask all the most annoying questions that I'm sure you get asked by your family or maybe not. I don't know. That's what I want to know.

0:03:27 Cecil: And also, a lot people think child -free people are big kids, so this makes a lot lot of sense for your show yeah thanks for having

0:03:34 Thomas: Yeah, it's going to be really fun. I really appreciate you coming on. So it's gonna be really cool. And the only thing worse than Eli Bosnick is the audio. I'm not as bad. How does Eli do it? I don' know something. Something. Yeah. Can I be as brave as I am? No. Can I say something brave? This, we need to do the break and the audio ads suck. The audio ads sucked. And if you want to hear Cecil's other appearance on the show, his historically amazing other appearance, one of the first bonus things, I think way back. Wow. Is that right? Yeah.

0:03:43 Cecil: Me jesus uh he's got a magic touch magic

0:03:46 Tom: Yeah we don't have his he's got a can we just vamp him in is there a way to like get him to call in just for this

0:04:10 Thomas: It was like way back when, right? We did the dating game. Is that what it's called? The dating game? Yes. And Cecil was an amazing host. And you can find that and no auto -ads on patreon .com slash dear dad. Oh, I make fun of him so much. No, I made fun of them so much for getting it wrong that I double -clutched it. I was like, wait a minute.

0:04:11 Cecil: Touch yeah

0:04:14 Tom: Portion we did the dating game yeah it was a million years ago do you not know what it is do you know what it did you just panic Panic?

0:04:30 Cecil: Uh they

0:04:30 Thomas: Yes, I literally did just panic. I was, like, Eli always fucks this up. I'm going to do it. So great. Patreon .com. No, that's not it. It dear patreon .com slash dear old dads

0:04:40 Tom: Dads, you know, fucking Google it. Dads just Google it, I don't know.

0:04:54 Ad: [Ad break 1 — ad music]

0:04:54 Tom: Hey, real quick, I want to tell a super quick story about panicking, it just reminded me, I had to go to an event for my work, I had go to the yearly golf event for my work. So I was there last week for a couple of days. And there was a moment, I'm out with the guys and I'm like pretending to be a guy's guy, right? Which is a horrible five hour fucking

0:05:11 Cecil: Brought up the world cup

0:05:11 Tom: Just tightrope walk, it's horrible. Terrible, yep, and

0:05:12 Thomas: The world exactly work I gotta stay healthy that's the coaching

0:05:16 Tom: I'm trying to tell everybody that I think it's the defense, and they're like, this is golf, that doesn't make sense, idiot, but

0:05:16 Cecil: It's all about the coaching yeah

0:05:23 Tom: Like, I'm doing good, I've known these guys now for like almost 15 years, I like, they know I don't care about golf, they knows that like, I'm just gonna be there and goof around and have a good time, so everybody like enjoys riding in the car with me, so I'm doin' fine, I'M DOIN' FINE, right, but there's a new guy, and the new guy and I don' know each other, and Im gettin' to know the new guy cuz he's like a new sales rep or whatever. And he turns out to be a pretty good guy. So we're having a pretty good conversation. But then he does my most hated thing in the world. At the same time that I was picking something up, he casually tosses a golf ball my way.

0:05:56 Tom: And I fucking hate that shit because my body does not do what every other person's body does, which is to just instinctively somehow, I don't know how you people do it, just like catch a thing that got gently thrown in your general direction. Instead, what I did is I was picking up one of those golf marker things, you know, off the ground, like off the, so my body, instead of just like using my hand to grab the golf ball through the golf marker in the air with my other hand and sort of swatted at the ball in a sort of panic thing. And I just looked at him like I fucking panicked. I don't, don't throw things my way.

0:06:34 Tom: I I know why my body is like this. Yeah.

0:06:33 Cecil: Amazing

0:06:33 Thomas: That's good so wait is this the new level of man thing we gotta help you because you can't be like it's the team to stay healthy you know you can'T like that doesn't

0:06:43 Cecil: Tom is very coordinated he just gets panicked right so like Like, Tom, I've been shooting with Tom before. Tom is an excellent shot. So Tom can shoot clay pigeons out of the air, no problem. Do doubles. He can shoot sporting clays. He's a great target shot. He doesn't panic when it comes to that. He just panics when it come to this sort of tossing of a ball because it's not something that he did a lot as a child. So he doesn't have any memory of it, and it freaks him out. And so, like, he just, his body goes, wah! And he just goes, ah! And he's just, somehow he becomes undressed during the process.

0:07:07 Tom: I fucking hate it.

0:07:13 Cecil: Like, he'll, like freak out, and his shirt will fly off. He's like, ah, I'm just like, yeah, it's insane. You know, shoe flies somewhere. It's crazy.

0:07:13 Thomas: Work yeah

0:07:13 Tom: It's just, you're not wrong fucking pants are around my ankles I carry coffee yeah

0:07:20 Thomas: Yeah I remember your barber started I was playing catch outside and then after that I was like your new plan is be carrying something yeah carry a wedding cake there something just whatever you gotta do the same thing the ball the golf ball yeah your wedding

0:07:28 Cecil: I don't always have a trick in your head. Amazing.

0:07:33 Tom: Nobody throws something to you if you're carrying a drink so I literally stop every time I get a haircut and I carry a drink in case they're playing catch outside the barbershop because it prevents I have to like run fucking clumsy interference against myself is what I have do

0:07:35 Cecil: Oh, it'S perfect. Oh, so good.

0:07:37 Thomas: Cake that's so funny jesus I think what's so fun is all I want in my life is for someone to throw something at me like I just want like to play catch at any time playing catch is one of the few things that I will always enjoy enjoy every time forever for the rest of my life.

0:07:47 Cecil: That's amazing.

0:08:01 Thomas: Walkies? What?

0:07:58 Tom: You also like walkies like you're a dog right like playing catch like go for a walk like that's all right it's early it's early out there in california or the joke's not good one

0:08:04 Cecil: Just, yeah. I

0:08:04 Thomas: Oh, sorry. I'm not a dog person. No, I'm not a dog person. And when, yeah.

0:08:10 Cecil: Got it. I got it.

0:08:10 Tom: Or the other yeah you literally have a dog though pawn

0:08:12 Thomas: No, I don't. Lydia does. Lydia slash Lydia's dad has a dog. When we can pawn the dog off on him, it's great. I, every single time I'm like, hey, do you want to take your dog to go take it? Sorry. Cecil and I are JD Vance's nightmare. Childless cat lady no I'm a child full cat lady cecil childless cat man I think he starts steaming if he ever were to see you he'd just be like yeah uh he's

0:08:20 Tom: The dog off so

0:08:33 Cecil: Yeah. Childless. Yeah, absolutely. Childless cat person. That's his nightmare. He wakes up screaming. Yeah.

0:08:44 Tom: See so we've talked on cog dis a few times about you not having kids by choice and I know that like sarah's family was unimpressed by that choice but what I'm curious about because this is a dad show what i'M CURIOUS ABOUT IS LIKE ONE I WANT TO KNOW YOU SPECIFICALLY like did you get grief for choosing not to be a father and if you did or didn't like how do you think that experience might be different for men who make the choice to be child free versus women

0:09:12 Cecil: I think naturally it's probably easier because you don't bear the burden of the child. But I did get grief from my parents. So and not my parents so much as my dad. So when I told him that we weren't going to have children, the two things that my dad said broke his heart were one, I wasn't religious, which he wasn't even all that religious either, which is crazy to me. But he he was he was like, it's like, I hope I I hopeI made something better than you.

0:09:32 Tom: Oh that's interesting someone's gotta go

0:09:33 Thomas: Like yeah but I was hoping you would be yeah I didn't want to do it

0:09:38 Tom: I don't want to see in the goddamn afterlife and hell I was hoping you'd go somewhere else we're gonna share the same address yeah

0:09:40 Cecil: You know, I don't understand it.

0:09:43 Thomas: Can you be one of those religions where like you can get me in if If you, you know,

0:09:47 Cecil: Oh, God. Yeah, exactly. Like I was going to be his in because he never went to church, but he he was like quasi religious. Yeah.

0:09:47 Tom: Right are there anchor weaker babies in heaven. How does that work?

0:09:54 Thomas: Wow,

0:09:57 Cecil: Yeah. All the anchor babies in heaven are named Jesus. Is that it? I don't know. Anyway, but He was quasi religious and so he was, like, yeah, you know, I just think it's important for you to have religion. When I came out as an atheist to him, he was very unimpressed and it said it broke his heart. But what also broke his mind was that I wasn't going to have a child. We had talked about it before then. And when we broke my news to my parents, he he was, I mean, not like visibly upset, but he was definitely disappointed that I wasn't having children. I actually found that Sarah's parents were a little more forgiving towards me. Now, I never heard any of the private conversations that they had with Sarah, but like around me, they never brought that up or never said anything openly. She said that her grandmother was much more pressuring of her to have children and called her selfish when she said she wasn't going to have kids. So, you know, like there's been there is definitely a pressure to on Sarah's side to have children. And we we decided not to.

0:10:43 Thomas: That's a hell of a thing. It is selfish that you don't do something that I want you to do. That's like a life changing thing. It's so funny.

0:10:54 Cecil: Exactly. Yeah, it's a crazy thing to think. But that's how that was their their thought process was selfish. So but we definitely decided not to have kids. And that was a problem. At least it was a small problem in both of our family that we decided Not to do it.

0:11:08 Thomas: Well, can we step back and ask what went into that decision to begin with?

0:11:11 Cecil: Yeah. Sure. We initially I think growing up, both of us thought we would have children and even when we were first married and we had conversations about having children, like when in our life would we want to do that? What type of life would do we want them to have? Where would we want to live? All the things that I think I would hope people think about before they have children. And so we thought about those types of things. And we had, I think we just sort of naturally felt like it was going to be a step in our relationship that when we got married, eventually we would have kids. And in fact, we moved from Chicago to a rural where Sarah grew up, rurally, a place around Chicago, like 60 miles miles southwest of Chicago, where Sarah grew up. We moved there specifically because we felt if we were to have children, her family were nearby and they would be some kind of reliable child care on occasion. We could leave the children with other people on occasion if we needed to. So we had planned on doing that. And that was one of the major reasons we moved rurally for a couple of years after we got married. So it was a thought process that went into it. But I think as time went on and Sarah and I both, you know, we grew up, Sarah was taking care of her infant sister at eight. I was babysitting infants when I was like 10 years old. So like I was around infants. I had to watch my niece when I Was growing up like and she was an infant for many years in high school. So I knew like the sort of process and the difficulty of having a child and what kind of care goes into just taking care of a newborn for a couple hours even. So

0:12:41 Cecil: We understood the work and we knew that we needed to be in a place that we would be able to do that sort of thing reliably. And it never got to that place. And then it eventually led to conversations about possibilities of maybe having something wrong genetically. Sarah might have something wrong with her genetically that could feasibly lead to a child that might not be healthy. And that was something that really made us think twice about it. And then one day, I think one of us just asked the other, what if we never had kids? And I think both of us were like, that sounds kind of cool. And dann we just decided not to do it. But it was a long process. It wasn't an instant conversation. It was, I think, a lot of thought process went into possibly having Having children and then eventually realizing it wasn't something that was required of us.

0:13:24 Tom: That's interesting to me because I mean, I fucking have kids, but like my kids were surprises, let's say.

0:13:30 Thomas: You put way more thought into it than Tom did. That's for sure. Tom's having second thoughts. Oh, maybe I shouldn't.

0:13:32 Tom: So yeah, no, you did. And like, I'm actually like, like I'm sitting over here and I'm like, maybe I shouldn't. Is it, was it too late to not to

0:13:40 Cecil: It's never too late. It's not. It's always never too late. As long as you don't mind prison, it's never too late."

0:13:41 Thomas: Google, how late can you do abortions? Is it?

0:13:41 Tom: Is it right yeah well like I'm sitting here I'm like I wonder if you were just like like because I know you very very well after 30 years like and you've always been a very responsible thoughtful person like you never make a rash I've never seen you make anything that even approaches a rash decision or a decision that like isn't really well thought out and I I wonder, like, almost to some degree, it's like, well, I'm just too responsible to have kids. Like, at no point, like – because, like having kids, the math never really makes sense, right?

0:14:17 Cecil: No, no, no.

0:14:17 Tom: It's either something that, like happens by happenstance or happens because at some point you decide you want this thing more than the, like logic lines up.

0:14:26 Cecil: Exactly. I think so, too. Yeah. One of the things, too, is that I've heard from other people. I know we have a very good friend, you and I, Tom, who had children later in life, right? He had a child later in life with him and his wife. And that was a very thoughtful decision by them. And it took them a while to actually have the child. It was, you know, because they're both later on in life and that often leads to, you know, medical intervention, et cetera, et cetera. So they had a child later on in life that they thought about a lot. And their thought process was not about, you know, weighing benefits and pros and cons. It was all about how they would want to feel and how they felt around children and how they felt when they were children. So they had to a lot of feelings that went into it. It was a very emotional decision for them. But But it was also a thoughtful decision because you don't just do that without thinking about it ahead of time. But I think a lot of people, you don'T get into it because it's like a good idea.

0:15:18 Cecil: You do it because you think that it's a good feeling. It's something that will make you feel good. It's not something that you're like, well, this is going to really make it so that my net worth is higher or something. Nobody thinks about it like that. Yeah, nobody thinks about It like that, like people think about It and I think just the way we thought about It.

0:15:27 Tom: Yeah, right. Yeah. This will help my bank account. Yeah.

0:15:33 Tom: You know, I am getting too much sleep.

0:15:35 Cecil: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, you lose a lot of things. Sleep is one of them, but money's another and time and et cetera, et cetera. So people think about it, I think, in different ways. And I think that when we thought about it when Sarah and I thought about we knew that there would be costs, but we never felt like at the point where we were because we were so far away from work and the way our jobs played out, Sarah was mostly the breadwinner. I was mostly the insurance carrier. So the way or our monetary was working out at the time, It just wasn't feasible for us to have children. And that stopped us from doing it. If it was different for us and one of us had a job that had both of those things, it might have been a different decision and an easier decision. It's just the way our economics played out. It just weren't feasible to have it at the time.

0:16:19 Cecil: And so we might have had children if our economics were different. And that's a very good possibility.

0:16:24 Thomas: That's a good fucking point that nobody ever brings up to these assholes who are like the birth rate for one. They just want, you know, they care about white births, but let's pretend they cared about the birthrate. It's like, well, maybe, you Know, people would have kids if it wasn't the fucking worst economically. It's funny that you said she was the breadwinner. I was the insurance carrier. I was like, what are our generation ish thing?

0:16:31 Cecil: Yeah, of course. Yeah.

0:16:43 Thomas: I don't roughly speaking like, yeah, like it's like you never, never, ever did you hear like our parents or grandparents speaking in those terms?

0:16:44 Tom: What an American thing to say.

0:16:46 Cecil: Yeah, for sure.

0:16:52 Thomas: Well, he had the insurance and I had, you know, it's like, that's a entirely how we've fucking ruined our ability to get by in this country somehow. It's just, I just, uh, never thought about that before, but that's because we had the same thing where it was like Lydia stayed at her job for quite a while. Because it was like all really good insurance and all that you know it's kind of funny

0:17:11 Tom: Yeah, like, in order to survive in America, you're on the side of a river, and you've got, like... an insurance plan, and a kid, and an income, and you can only get the insurance in the boat at the same time as the income, and you're like, you can't get the kid...

0:17:18 Cecil: It's a bag of grain. And

0:17:24 Tom: It's fucking ridiculous! Right! It's... It's fuckin' absurd!

0:17:24 Cecil: The fox keeps eating the kid. It's a whole thing. Yeah. Make them paddle.

0:17:26 Thomas: And then the kid just comes when you weren't planning fuck ah all right if I put the kid in my mouth then the insurance plan can't eat it I don't

0:17:30 Tom: Ah, goddammit. Fuckin '... It's gonna eat all of everything. It's funny, cause, like… I guess I always... thought... erroneously, which is crazy because like we've talked about this before but I have a bad memory I guess I always thought that like you were always like yeah just not interested like a lot of people that are child free by choice kind of their whole lives they were like yeah it's just never I just never really had that drive that sort of like biological imperative or social imperative whatever it is some combination of the two probably to have kids but it's I actually even though I've known you for 30 fucking years I'm like I didn't actually know how close you may have come to having kids I guess I always thought that you guys were both like yeah not really yeah

0:18:16 Cecil: Don't want to play it up to seem like one of us was hanging from a cliff or something like that. And there was a really close. I definitely think that there was conversations that we had that led up to our decision. And those conversations, some of those early conversations definitely included what happens when we have kids. And it wasn't like what happens if. If it was like, what happens when, because there was a lot of expectation of how your life turns out when you're younger. Like it just like, especially when you were first married, like everybody thinks you're going to have children. And I think that, that our thoughts were when we have kids and it never really was a question of if, you know, and I did like kids when I was growing up. I still do like kids. I'm not a child hater. I like kids are great. But I, when I was a kid, I took care of kids and liked kids. My, I loved my niece. I used to play with my my niece all the time. He's like, I literally took care of her for three years in high school for like three hours a day. Essentially, I would take care of her after school. And I loved her. I thought she was great. And I thought, you know, it was really cool to watch the child develop and all that. And I thought it was neat. And, and I understand when people tell me stories about, you know, like watching their child walk or watching their child, like learn how to speak or, you know, all the types of things that, that children, you know, as they grow, they learn. That's a cool thing to see. I got a chance to see it with my niece. I think that's neat. And I thought would be cool. You know, when I was younger, I was like, oh, they'd be cool to see in your own children, too. But it was never we were never close to it. It was never like we're going to have

0:18:35 Thomas: Know

0:18:55 Tom: When right yeah

0:19:37 Cecil: Kids next year or something like that. It was always in the distance. It was always really far away.

0:19:42 Tom: I wonder I'm gonna ask that kind of an awkward question for everybody but like I am curious about this like do you think that everybody this is just bullshitting but like do You think that everybody who wants kids should have them I worry about this sometimes I think about this sometimes like I wonder if it is ever morally neutral or immoral

0:19:59 Thomas: Tom is soft launching his eugenics platform again tom we've told this

0:20:02 Tom: Let me say it out loud Like, I don't think I should have had kids with my ex, right? So, like, I think looking back that that was a foolish, foolish decision, right, like my ex has some serious mental health issues and it was not a smart decision to have kids together, right. That was a bad and foolish decision on my part. I should've been more careful and not because I don' love my kids, very much the opposite. I love my kid very, very, much, but like she has some very serious mental issues which which is expose them to situations which were not cash money and to like potentially having issues themselves. And so I look back at that and I'm like, yeah, I mean, like I'm not sure that was the most moral thing I've ever done. And I worry about like, did I make a bad moral choice? You know what I mean? And I'm curious, like if you ever think about the decision to have kids or not kids in those kind of moral terms, because I do. And it's something I fret about, like as something that maybe I fucked up and wasn't as thoughtful as I should have been right

0:20:10 Thomas: Is the some of my best friends are me part. No, wait.

0:21:06 Cecil: I Was Raised By My Father Was An Alcoholic And He Was Somebody Who Was In And Out Of Jobs For All My Life. So I Was Raised In A Sort Of Instable Place With An Instable Parent. And So I Recognized That Probably probably my dad shouldn't have had kids. Like, I feel like my dad probably did a bad job, didn't have kids, didn't care for us the way someone else could have, I think probably cared for us better. I love my dad. I thought he was, I thought it was a good dad in the sense that that's the only dad I ever knew. When I look back on it objectively, I thinking, well, he probably wasn't great, like all around great. He certainly wasn't a good influence when it came to things like addiction and other things. So there was definitely negatives. So yeah, I mean, you just know that this is true, that there's ways to immorally have children because people have children to like save relationships. And that's completely immoral because you're doing it. That's a selfish reason to have children. And That's just one. I'm sure there's plenty other examples of selfish reasons to have Children. So I think the exact opposite of what Sarah's grandma, his grandma thought, which is

0:21:56 Tom: That's true too yeah

0:22:10 Cecil: Sometimes it's selfish. So yeah. Yeah.

0:22:10 Thomas: I think it's always selfish. You know, Tom, we had a discussion about this a while back. And it's funny because, you know, I said the only reason to have kids is because you want kids. But you look at it in terms of like, oh, no, you should. There's all these other factors. But ultimately, it's still only because you wants to. I remember listening back to that episode because it was an interesting discussion. And I remember I was like, Oh, oh, I'm going to use Cecil as an example next time. If we ever talk about this, which we never did, but it's like, there's no amount of other factors that Cecil could have like takeaway. And I know that there's nuance to your situation Cecil that you described, but if you're at the point, let's say if anyone is at the point where they're like, we just don't want kids, we don't Want to have kids. There's no other factors. That you could bring up. That would be a good reason to have kits. You know what I mean? Like, well, but you're comfortable. You factor on earth. But if they say, and they feel, well, we don't want to have kids. That's the only reason that matters. Like literally the only reason that matter is everything else is a consideration. Everything else is like, well is it an obstacle or not? We want to kids, but we have absolutely no money or we have no ability to raise them. We have no time. You know, those are all obstacles. They're not like reasons to have a kid or not. You don't know what I mean? And I think that's, that's something that I've been thinking about ever since we had that discussion, because truly if somebody and you know we all have many friends that are child free by choice lydia and I we ended up with like all of our friends are child three by choice it's kind of a weird hand of luck in terms of who we were friends with that we were dealt that we're the only couple out of like who I don't five couples or something like truly and there's no reason you can I think give people who are child -free by choice that would be a good reason short of like like oh well the earth is down to you guys it's just you two

0:24:01 Thomas: Maybe but even then it's like oh we'll just die okay who cares yeah oh

0:24:05 Cecil: Yeah exactly. Like, well, maybe the next thing's better than us, whatever it is.

0:24:09 Tom: I remember that same conversation Thomas which is why I actually was thinking about it when I was thinking about having this conversation with Cecil like I said it's something that like I look back at my life and I try to learn lessons from the things that I've done and I tried to think about reflect on my life like I looked at that and I'm like for me I think like, I think in terms of like the default position should be no until there's a reason to say yes to something when the consequences are as enormous as having kids, the consequences to other people. And so I look back and I'm like, well, what were the conditions that I was working with when my kids were born? And they were suboptimal in pretty important ways. And so I looked at that and I think I, and again, like, because Finn listens to this, like I love my kids deeply deeply deeply so it has nothing to do with that but it's like just stripped of that reality when you look at like okay the decision point it's okay as a decision point I'm not sure that I made a morally well calculated choice I wonder like even if like the desire is strong if the sort of like other factors don't line up is it possible to be in a moral place where you're like yeah it's actually like it's a bad call like let's say yeah yeah

0:25:16 Thomas: Oh yeah I think so but it's also it's such a fine line and such a

0:25:20 Tom: Yeah

0:25:20 Thomas: I think I think it's it's so close to a kind of eugenics argument that I think people should just be really really careful about saying who should and shouldn't have kids It's like it's such a I don't think it's always wrong to be like, hey, that was probably the wrong decision. Like if you you know, if you're bringing a child into a horrible, horrible environment or something knowingly or, you know. Like definitely. But I think it'S one of those things where it's like you just want to be careful saying anything like, well, these people shouldn't have kids over here. You know, even if you are kind of including yourself in that. Yeah.

0:25:49 Cecil: Yeah that's That's an interesting point.

0:25:51 Tom: What

0:25:51 Thomas: I just think itS something to tread carefully on.

0:25:54 Tom: I was thinking about the other day when I was thinking about this was like I wonder if the truth is like they are a moral decisions but they can never be applied outside of your own circumstance right like it is a

0:26:03 Thomas: It would be more immoral for someone else to tell you not to do it. Maybe in a certain way you know maybe yeah yeah right

0:26:04 Tom: Moral yeah that's what I'm trying to say right like like I can't stand in judgment of of you necessarily right but like I should stand in punishment of my own choices because they do do have moral implications I guess it's kind of so

0:26:16 Thomas: Right right yeah no that makes sense well I'm curious so taking us through that whole thought process and that journey but if someone asks you now like why didn't you have kids and you're giving the shorter answer I'm wondering what do you end up saying what's your what's you're like one sentence answer to people I'm just curious

0:26:34 Cecil: If somebody were to ask me why don't I have kids I'd say well it just didn't fit my lifestyle. I mean it just didn't what I what I wanted to be and who I wanted To be and I'm and one of the things I've said many many times is I'm not done with me like I'm Not ready to help anything else because I'm not done With who I am yet I want to fix and be the best person I can be and I'm not sure I can can do that with trying to help someone else. And so I'm constantly learning. I'm constantly trying to change who I am to try to be better. And so I always say, like, I'm not done with who I am yet.

0:27:09 Ad: [Ad break 2 — ad music]

0:27:11 Tom: For some people one of the joys of like being a parent is being in a sort of like uh well a parent or mentorship role right like you feel like okay like I want to help guide somebody through something I wonder how maybe universal or not universal that urge is like do you feel the urge to be a mentor to other people like is this is it an itch you feel like you've got a scratch or is it are you like yeah no like I'm gonna mentor were

0:27:37 Cecil: I've found avenues to do that throughout my life in different ways, through hobbies. For a while, I was a professor at a university. So I found ways to teach other people and sort of be in that role. But I think one of the things that I always think about when I think about children is that there's no guarantees tease with any child about anything.

0:27:54 Cecil: So your thoughts about what parenthood is going to be, I think changes minute by minute by your relationship with that person. And that a lot of people get into it thinking there's going to being this thing and this is going be what it's like. And then it sometimes changes and that might change in flavor how they think about this particular thing in this relationship. And I think like thinking about it and shoehorning like that that might not be positive.

0:28:06 Tom: Myself

0:28:20 Cecil: That might not be a good thing. Maybe you're not going to be the mentor you think you're going to be, or maybe they're not gonna, you and I've talked many times about, maybe your kids might not even like you, Tom. You and I have said that many times, like, maybe you're kids might like you. And Tom, specifically, but it was,

0:28:30 Thomas: Specifically you tom we're just like god oh we've been planning on

0:28:32 Tom: Yeah well who would blame him I mean I mean

0:28:37 Cecil: But, yeah, I mean, I think that's a difficult thing to think is going to happen. I think a lot of people get into the parental role because they think they have something to offer and something to give. And I'm not saying I don't, but I also not sure I do either. You know, like there's a lot of things I'm like, yeah, I'm kind of a selfish person and I don't know that I have great, amazing wisdom to hand down and I'm not as thoughtful with my life as Tom is. So like, I feel like Tom's probably way better. Tom's way better thinking about what he did right and wrong than I am. I never sit and think about it the way he does. Tom is a modern philosopher. Yeah.

0:29:03 Tom: I don't know about that man you may say the guy who very carefully considered his life's trajectory and built it you know with whereas I was just like I don't know maybe this is what's next yeah Yeah.

0:29:20 Cecil: In a different way but yeah I guess my answer to that is I've found other ways to do it but I've also realized that's not a

0:29:32 Thomas: It yeah part of this conversation that's so interesting for me as a parent is just thinking about like what it makes me think of in terms of my life and I'm realizing I'm probably internally having a much different experience than a lot of parents but maybe not because I am I'm so unable to have the feeling of like well I have this great wisdom or characteristics that I'm going to pass down to my kid I'm realizing like what if you're one of those parents who just mindlessly is it's the kind of parent that would little thomas jr you're gonna be exactly me because I'm so fucking great you know like I it's those kind of parents you know where you see them and they're clearly like they had kids because they wanted more them like they're just here whatever and it's just

0:30:02 Cecil: Guarantee it's that old cartoon with the with the car it's a little cartoon with a car where the kid wanted to be the fast car and he becomes the taxi cab of his dad later on I don't know if I'm reminding anybody of this cartoon that I saw a bunch when I was a kid but it was a little kid who had a fox tail on an antenna thing and the dice and then he gets into a wreck and then his dad saves him or his dad gets into a wreck or something and he eventually becomes a taxi like his dad.

0:30:20 Thomas: Interesting oh man I'm not sure I don't know what that

0:30:35 Cecil: That's a whole moralistic thing that happened with cartoons back in the day.

0:30:39 Thomas: Is my whole thing is I'm doing my best at treading water to get my kids to the point where they realize they're smarter than me you know like I want you ah if I can just get them over that finish line where they realize like oh this guy doesn't really know what he's talking about so I'm gonna figure my own shit out which may be about a year from now for phoebe you know she's uh put

0:30:55 Cecil: And everybody gets to that point with their parents. Yeah, everybody gets that point. How old are your kids now?

0:31:05 Thomas: Me on the spot again It's patreon .com slash dear old dads. Phoebe is turning nine.

0:31:07 Cecil: Yeah, you gotta know the ages of your children.

0:31:14 Tom: OK, let's start with their names. Let's get their names first.

0:31:18 Thomas: Phoebe's nine in a month. Arlo is seven and Remy is three, but he is still a baby. His age is irrelevant so far. If he passes into the next phase of being, that'll be great, but he's still a Baby. No, so Phoebe still eight.

0:31:18 Cecil: Nine. Nine wow wow okay

0:31:35 Thomas: Eight, that's what always gets me because the years for a kid, the years for us are just fucking, oh, there goes another one. I just, another year happened, but for kids, the start of a year, like when Phoebe started as eight and where she is now still eight, but about to turn nine, it's like four different people. So it's, so it's one of the reasons I get thrown off because I'll think about their age and I'll be like, well, no, she was eight, like forever. She definitely can't still be eight. You know what I mean?

0:31:35 Cecil: Yeah she's like 24 now yeah wow

0:32:05 Tom: So I'm curious about something. I was talking to Haley about this the other day. So I have a terrible personal memory. So what I mean by that, and actually there's like, we were just reading a story in the paper the other day that like many people, like a shocking number of people have few or no memories of their own childhood. Of their own child hood. Yeah.

0:32:23 Thomas: At all. No. Oh, wait. What? What?

0:32:27 Tom: A shocking number if people have a few or no memories.

0:32:30 Thomas: Any amount would be shocking to me.

0:32:32 Tom: And I think back and like personally, my childhood memories don't have any emotional salience to them, right? Right. There are sort of like facts I know about myself, but they don't connect to me in a way that like I feel I know, I know. I know I know but

0:32:46 Thomas: I need Eli here for this. Sorry. You need to wait till Eli's back. Do you say very roastable things like that? I need.

0:32:51 Tom: I've discovered that this isn't actually terribly unusual and like Haley has deep memories of what it felt like to be a kid.

0:32:58 Thomas: Yeah, me too.

0:32:59 Tom: I don't really have a lot of those memories of What the feelings were of being a kid so I wanted to bring that up on this call cuz I'm curious how you both intersect with that and your memories of childhood.

0:33:02 Thomas: That's so interesting.

0:33:09 Cecil: The opposite of you like exactly like I have all kinds of memories of being a child what it felt like to be a child at the time so it's all very emotional based and I have a lot of memories of being a child like a a

0:33:21 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, me, too. And that's why parenting is truly so emotional for me all the time. It's finally maybe getting out of that phase a little little bit, but I could just couldn't even be a parent day to day without crying just because so many of my memories are like really there. It's hard to explain. I can't even really describe it. It's not like, oh, I have a bunch of specifically sad memory. It's not even that. It's like they're really important to me in a way. And I also think that for me, I think that it's been an asset as a parent that I really remember what it's like to be a kid. Cause there've been times where I'm like, oh, we need to do this because think about like from their perspective, you know, et cetera, et cetera. I can't think of an example off the top of my head, but I've had that conversation with Lydia where I've been like, yeah, I remember what that's like, you know, so I there's little things. So there's something I do. And this may be completely meaningless, completely meaningless. But every night when we put them to bed for some reason, and this started as early as possible, I mean, I guess it would be this house specifically because this house has this feature which is their room if you open the door it's out to like a bigger uh we have a stupid design to our house but I don't know who thought of it but it's like an open part of it where it's a two-story house but there's a part of it where its fully open so it's like a fucking mini like cathedral it's all echoey and boomy you know I don't yeah and I don t like it because it's from you know me with sound it's just like too echoey and you can't hear anything, but their door opens out to that. And at night, whenever we'd be putting to bed, I had this feeling of like, oh, well, you have to turn the light off there. Like you have the big giant light off there. And it wasn't because like, Oh, it's too bright and they'll not be able to. So it wasn't that because we closed the door, but I had very important to me feeling that may be completely meaningless and irrelevant to every other human in this house and on the planet. But I had this feeling of, well, I don't want to be closing the door to them and putting them to bed and have them have the feeling that there's still too much happening outside. Like there's still, like life happening and people talking or think, like, I don't want them to feel like they're missing out on a whole bunch when they're going to bed. And for some reason, it's always been incredibly important to me that I turn off that big light so that it doesn't feel like, like I'm shutting them out from something, you

0:34:43 Tom: Yeah all great roomie. Yeah

0:35:41 Thomas: Know, like I'm like, Hey, all right, you got you stop now you don't get to be a part of whatever's happening and it's that's one of those things yeah

0:35:42 Cecil: Ton

0:35:46 Tom: Sucks to suck we're having a lot of fun down here yeah

0:35:49 Cecil: Yeah yeah for

0:35:49 Thomas: Yeah it's for some reason and it's something every single night that's one thing where I'm like I don't want to do that it just feels bad and I think it's from some sort of feeling of when I was a kid but I can't directly think of what it would be you know what I mean but that's just an example I guess

0:36:04 Tom: What about you see so you had you have strong emotional memories of what it was like to be a kid do you think those impacted your desire in any way to have kids or not have kids I'm just I'm curious because like like I said for me there's there's not a lot emotional salience to the memories I have so I can tell a very what to me is a very funny story about something that maybe isn't funny because like it doesn't feel like anything it feels like a fact from a book I read about tom but I am curious if maybe that impacted your feeling about like like maybe it wasn't awesome all the time to be a kid maybe did that impact whether or not you wanted to have one

0:36:41 Cecil: It wasn't something that I thought a ton about I knew that my situation as an adult was different than my parents situation as an adult and so like I never was anything that I thought deeply about I know I wasn't going to be not having a job like my parents were etc so it was it was a different type of feeling but I never really thought about it in that sense I had a lot lot of great times as a child, a lot of bad times, just like everybody else, right? Good and bad things that happen to you as you grow up. And so I have a lot of great memories of being a child and that never, it was never anything that made me think about it. But when I think about, there is a close friend of ours who had a child. And one of the reasons why he told me he was planning on having a child was because of the great memories he had with his mom and dad and the ways in which they related to each other. And he said, you know, know, like how important some of the photos, even he looks back and sees these photos and realizes what it felt like to be a kid. And he's hoping he can have those moments of being the father to his daughter in those pictures as well.

0:37:47 Cecil: So it's sort of like relive in a lot of ways, but from a different perspective, the moments of being a child and his child's living those moments now. So that I know that that's something people think about, but it wasn't anything that came into my mind at all.

0:38:00 Tom: Right yeah it's just a thought I I was just thinking because I you know my becoming a parent it's funny because I've got four fucking kids and it all happened kind of just by happenstance I didn't ever really have have a strong desire to, like, it never occurred to me that I would be a dad when I was growing up, probably because I didn't really enjoy being a kid. So I wasn't like, well, I can't wait to do this to somebody else. You know, like I was just kind of a bummer time for me when I was a kid and I wasn't like, oh, man, I can't wait to give somebody else a bummer time. You know? So I was just curious, like if maybe there was a connection there. It's funny to me that this article, like I said that and it was like in the Times or the Post or something it's like a big you know news source that indicated how many people don't have like any substantial book of memories of being like a child and I think like I wonder if that's why people can't seem to like figure out how to empathize with

0:38:52 Tom: Kids and their frustrations you know what I mean like there's a lot of times where people are like really frustrated with kids in ways that like if you just are like yeah but when you were a kid that was a big fucking deal you know and like like Haley is really really good at that and I follow her lead and she makes me a better person I do wonder sometimes because I can look at a kid and be like I don't know fucking stop thinking stupid shit and being worried about stuff that doesn't matter and that's so unfair because I know objectively that everybody when you're a kid it's like your thing Thomas it's why you know everybody's downstairs eating popcorn and watching TV and I gotta you know go to bed and I have all these big feelings about that and we kind of forget how to empathize with the experience of children if we don't have those like emotionally laden memories you know

0:39:40 Thomas: Interesting I wouldn't have necessarily connected those things but that makes sense when you when you think about I still I'm sorry I'm I'm still reeling from the idea that a lot of people don't have childhood memory. I don't know what that means. Like, I still can't imagine that being true. I can't imagine that being true.

0:39:51 Cecil: Where do your memories start, Tom?

0:39:57 Tom: This is so funny because I this was a big source of conflict the last time I saw my mom as a matter of fact like I don't really know because I don'T really have a good most of my memories don'T REALLY anchor themselves very well in time for me and on a timeline line so it's very hard for me yeah right but is it a monkey or no monkey memory so

0:40:09 Thomas: Right. Pre-Gilligan or post-Gilligan is the main... Yeah. That would be my first thing, I would think. Wow.

0:40:20 Tom: Like I have a hard time figuring out where things occurred in the sort of timeline of my life as we go before like I don't know second or third grade anything before that is just like I'm like I know what happened but I don'T know if I was six or eight or four I DON'T necessarily even know like where I I was living you know like as I don't have I also struggle with visual memory I don't form visual images very well so like my memories are more narrative

0:40:42 Thomas: Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. Isn't that crazy how different all our freaking brains are all the time?

0:40:51 Cecil: That's insane.

0:40:51 Thomas: But we're somehow still all the same thing. We're all still the same, like, animal somehow. It doesn't make any sense. Yeah. Cause I, I have a very, like, I always know where I am in my memories, like physically time before school is tough, but like once I started school, then I've got a year and a teacher that everything kind of more or less can fit into if it's a school memory, obviously, you know, some, some loose memories here and there, but like before that, it's a little rough. And it's not even like my childhood was necessarily, well, I guess when you're in childhood, it is a lot different than when you reflect back on it, I think. I think if you've had a really bad childhood, then maybe, yeah, maybe you're like you're eight and you're Like, geez, this fucking sucks. But for the most part, that's what's so heartbreakingly amazing about kids is they always will find that joy or that thing they're like, it is always normal to them. And it is also always exciting to them in a way.

0:40:49 Tom: Yeah yeah right

0:41:46 Ad: [Ad break 3 — ad music]

0:41:47 Thomas: You know, what I wanted to make sure we got to was I wanted to ask you, we talked a little bit about it, Cecil, but the kind of the response from family and do people still ever like ask annoying questions short of a podcast where you've been invited to, you know, specifically talk about it. But do people ever like still kind of bug you about it in ways that are frustrating or, you Know, like how, how is that gone? How did it go early on when you made the decision? And how has that changed over time?

0:42:13 Cecil: Remember at my workplace, I worked at a university and when I worked at the university, I would get asked that on occasion because that's the sort of like the question you ask when you don't need to ask what a person does because you're working them or you're in the same place. So there's the next bit of small talk is, do you have kids? And I remember saying, no, I don't have any kids. We're child -free. And I remember the response from some people would be, well, not yet. And they'd be like, no it's never going to happen now. It's actually impossible for it to happen. So you'd have to sort of have that conversation where you'd be, like, I'm not complete anymore. There's a piece of me that's missing.

0:42:50 Cecil: There is is a piece of tubing that is necessary for this. Yeah.

0:42:55 Thomas: And I love how people do that where they're like, they know better than you. Oh, you know, not

0:42:59 Cecil: Y 'all change your mind.

0:43:00 Thomas: Yet. Like, okay. Yeah.

0:43:04 Cecil: Nope, nope, nope. So yeah, I had to deal with that for many years when I worked because it's sort of like the way in which people communicated at work. But it was the family thing, never. And on occasion, you would meet people, like if you meet people that are your age range, they ask. But then I think that it actually became more and more common for people not to have children that I've never really dealt with any of the issues around it. I know that people one generation older than me, it was a much bigger deal. It's certainly not as big a deal for me as it was for them.

0:43:00 Tom: You you'll fail no no yeah getting back to your the way your dad responded and like the way like you know sarah's parents responded there was some disappointment or pressure or whatever do you you think it was because they wanted you guys to produce a grandchild for them or because it was like a values issue around like everybody should do

0:43:54 Cecil: I couldn't tell you. I never interrogated it, Tom. I ever asked the second question. I've ever bothered to find out what they meant or what they felt because it wasn't their life and they don't get to make this decision. So for me, I literally don't care what you think like why how your thoughts process around this is you dealing with you that's not dealing with me at all so it never occurred to me to ask yes

0:44:00 Tom: This yeah no that's a good answer yeah right I know some people are like really aggressive about getting a grand child right like or becoming a grandparent and it's like that's always struck me as fucking patently insane to be like change Change your life to provide for me something. And it's just like, what is that? That is such a fucking crazy behavior.

0:44:29 Cecil: Yes it is weird man it's fucking weird bro yeah that's fucking Weird yeah absolutely I think either way it's crazy so So yeah.

0:44:37 Tom: You know, it'd be like, like to me, I'm like, get a second job and give me all of the money from it. Like, what?

0:44:43 Thomas: Yeah it's more work than a second job.

0:44:43 Tom: Fuck you. That's crazy.

0:44:46 Cecil: Yeah. Yeah, no, I never asked.

0:44:46 Tom: Fucking nuts. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I was just because I know some religious people also see it as like a value. Like it's like the meaning to be alive. Like there's no meaning outside of being a parent.

0:44:49 Thomas: What

0:44:54 Cecil: Sure. Sure, sure. Yeah yeah. To be honest and you know Sarah was religious when we first met. Sarah is no longer religious but she was when we first met and for several years of our marriage or beginning years of our marriage she was still religious and going to church but one of the things that turned her off of church was when she told her priest that she was not going to have children and he said you should annul your marriage then. So he he specifically said, you should not have a marriage. And she was just like, well, I'm done with this then.

0:45:18 Tom: So I remember that. Yeah yeah

0:45:24 Cecil: And so she stopped being religious pretty quickly after that. Yeah.

0:45:18 Thomas: An asshole yeah cool bro cool story dude yeah and all this

0:45:27 Tom: I'll not have a church

0:45:29 Cecil: And being an atheist at that point wasn't really part of my identity. It was just what I was.

0:45:31 Tom: I'll definitely be leaving something yeah right it's not my husband right

0:45:37 Cecil: It wasn't a thing I thought about. So it wasn't something that I was like, I'm like this crazy out atheist. Yeah, I was just an atheist. It just didn't occur to me. But at that point in our lives, she left specifically. It was like, no, this is, this is not good. So it specifically left because of it. So there was expectations from religious, like you suggest Tom, there was expectations from religious organizations.

0:45:37 Thomas: Church oh

0:46:00 Clip: DEAR OLD DAD

0:46:06 Thomas: Wait yeah did anyone prepare a dad joke shit shit okay

0:46:12 Tom: Got it I've Got one I used to be addicted to the hokey pokey but I've turned myself around

0:46:21 Cecil: That's a brilliant joke. I love it. That's good shit.

0:46:24 Thomas: Good oh poor eli you come with fucking oh oh yeah maybe I'll fill this role and then you just fucking nail it so much harder ah oh man that's such a good right when you said it I was already like that's already the best joke I

0:46:25 Tom: Boom if anyone needs it it's out of the fucking park bitches that's gonna be good that's gonna be bad I'll have you know I cribbed that from a sign I drove past a few days ago and made a mental note of

0:46:33 Cecil: Oh gosh. Damn. Outstanding.

0:46:49 Thomas: Love that one so stupid

0:46:50 Cecil: Genius. Absolutely genius.

0:46:51 Tom: Yeah here's

0:47:39 Thomas: Trying to think if there's any joke to end it with but that's you know eli you know yeah patreon

0:47:43 Tom: The fucking joke Eli didn't show up and now we have nothing fun or funny to say that's the goddamn joke you know what's a joke you don't know what the goddamn joke this show Joe is a goddamn joke. Eli, no show Bosnick. I think he's missed ones of shows. Ones of them. Outrageous.

0:47:53 Cecil: Wait, I'll ruin the show, Eli, you fucker.

0:48:06 Thomas: .com slash dear dad all I want in my life is for someone to throw something at me

0:48:16 Tom: Are there anchor babies in heaven? How does that work?