DOD284: It Must Be Hot Divorcée Summer Or Something

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad, that's my thing I know now what I can offer you that no one else can Complete and under-dependent I'm a man, I'm sensitive I need to feel loved, I need part of being a father that I enjoy

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's giving you permission for what you want to do anyway. I'm Tom Curry. I am joined, as always, by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:39 Eli: Hello.

0:00:39 Thomas: Hello. Awesome. I have permission, huh?

0:00:41 Tom: Hey, anyone drowning in your pools this week? Because my pool so far is dead body free, which is good.

0:00:44 Eli: Nobody drowns in my pool. Mm -hmm.

0:00:46 Thomas: I don't have a pool for that very reason. Too many souls.

0:00:50 Tom: I'll drain mine tomorrow instead of inviting random kids over to it.

0:00:54 Eli: That'll do it.

0:00:55 Thomas: Eli, you have any pre -show talk? I feel like I blew my load last time.

0:00:57 Eli: Skibbity -doobity -bow. Squibb -bibbety -bow! Sorry, give me two seconds, guy. Those are words. I appreciate them.

0:01:01 Tom: I guess that's well if we don't have any pre-show talk we can launch right into we're going to try to do something unprecedented on this show which is to talk about three different listener emails in one show

0:01:02 Thomas: That's not... Those aren't words. So far, no words. Yeah.

0:01:16 Tom: Normally we barely get through one topic on one show much less three topics on three shows.

0:01:18 Thomas: Yeah, I don t know why you're recording this. I'm just going to have to edit it out later when we didn't do it. But yeah, okay. Just for fun.

0:01:25 Tom: Let's see how badly we failed.

0:01:27 Thomas: It turns out, you know, when Babe Ruth called his shot, like, pointed famously, it turns out he did that every single at bat and then it was

0:01:35 Tom: The one time it works.

0:01:35 Thomas: Only yeah they're like oh my god he did it the son of a bitch actually did

0:01:35 Eli: And he always missed and they were like, fuck, he's doing it again. And then they all, they all went back to one. Yeah. For once.

0:01:44 Tom: That's fucking amazing. Amazing.

0:01:46 Eli: But gentlemen, do you know the only thing worse than Ty Cobb's racism? Why?

0:01:51 Thomas: It it was really bad

0:01:52 Eli: It's the auto ads. Ty Cobb, too much of a racist for, I believe, the 1800s. Popping into your podcast experience. Ty Cobb, our new guest host on Dear Old Dads. Ty, tell them all about what they can get on Patreon. All right. Well, if you're not Italian, here's what you can get. You head on over to patreon.com/dearolddads. You give them as little as a dollar. Make sure it's not one that's been touched by an Irish and you'll get a commercial free version of every single show. Plus, a bonus episode once a month. Now, these Smiths, they post their bonus episodes on the timeliness of which a Jew pays his bills. But don't you worry, you'll get them eventually. Over at patreon.com/dearolddads. Like miscegenation into my psyche, rip into it. Thank you so much, Ty.

0:01:58 Thomas: Yeah like late

0:02:40 Tom: Hey,

0:02:40 Eli: Thanks for coming. Hey, are we, um, we're still doing the threesome later? Devil's threedom, you got it. Alright, excellent. Great, I'll talk to you later, man. Do you mind if I do the rest of the episode holy shit guys

0:02:49 Thomas: Yeah what's this we have 200 000 listeners now holy shit that's incredible all you have to do is a little bit of racism and it's just like peter teal like comes and funds you or something you know you just got wow a little bit racism yeah yeah it's only no I mean they expect more you You know, they start, you can start light, but they do expect you to get to full racism eventually.

0:03:01 Eli: And I'm on steroids now it's a it's good for him no

0:03:03 Tom: Off, off to the side. Let's talk about that business model a little, you know, just, it's just a little bit, right? It's just the tip racism is where we're going just to see see how it feels just a little bit

0:03:18 Thomas: Yeah, no, yeah, you don't want that.

0:03:26 Ad: [Ad break 1 — ad music]

0:03:27 Tom: All right so let's launch right into this first email hi dads I've been married to my husband for 16 years we've raised four children together kind of a brady bunch situation my two and his two about eight years ago received a letter in the mail from someone identifying themselves as his co -worker and in this letter the person said that from what they had learned about me through their work with my husband I sounded too nice to be left in the dark about something going on apparently my husband was having an affair with a different co -workers and he and the affair partner weren't doing a very good job of keeping it under wraps I had to leave work after reading the letter, as I'm a therapist and didn't feel I could hold space for my clients and offer them the best care in the face of that discovery. Upon returning home, I took a picture of the letter and sent it to my husband with a, we need to talk ASAP message. He came home almost immediately, and I confronted him. I asked how long it had been going on, six months, who it was,

0:04:02 Thomas: Not fucking kidding. Oof.

0:04:15 Tom: What they were doing, etc. I didn't really want to know the answer to that last one, but I was in a fit of hurt and rage and pretty much went ballistic. And his only response was that after we had been on our last family vacation, he got upset that I had turned him down for sex. He woke me up and I'm not really a wake and shake kind of person. Yeah. He felt rejected and had entered into the relationship with the affair partner in retaliation.

0:04:28 Thomas: Oh, sure. Well, you didn't tell me that. Yeah.

0:04:37 Thomas: Oh, naturally, yeah. So it's her fault. I think what I'm getting is it's his fault. It's her. Yeah, okay.

0:04:40 Tom: It's her fault. Right. Yeah.

0:04:40 Eli: Yeah so the first thing this person said upon being confronted with their affair was you fucked me that one time I wanted

0:04:46 Thomas: You did it. Yeah.

0:04:47 Tom: Yeah. Have you considered how this is really your fault that I did this? Yeah. Yeah.

0:04:51 Eli: Apology accepted did you just walk in the door apology accepted

0:04:54 Thomas: Yeah. I don't even know. Why is this person emailing? It seems like they've got it. It's their fault.

0:04:58 Eli: No no no trust me trust me wait until the end

0:04:58 Tom: Right. Yeah. Although I didn't even know it was going on. We had a long discussion slash fight. I don't understand how this is a fight. And in the end, I let him stay under a few certain conditions. He had to leave that workplace immediately and find another job. He did. And we start couples counseling. We did not. He has always refused any type of therapy, and this was no different. I know I should have held my boundary on that, but in my head, it kind of made sense due to avoiding therapy in the past for some really heinous things that he had experienced. He was extremely, all caps, remorseful, whether about being caught or the idea that I would would kick him out or because he was sorry yeah

0:05:33 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, he was extremely remorseful that she caused this is what it sounds like. Yeah. I'm so sorry that you did this to me.

0:05:36 Tom: Yeah right yeah you really shouldn't have done this to me and he promised he would never do anything like that again that he had never had any intention of leaving me which I think he thought would give me some relief but it really just made me feel like he

0:05:39 Eli: I forgive you huh I was gonna continue to betray your trust for like a whole lives. Like, think of every major event where I would be there with a sticky dick just wet with another woman's fluids.

0:05:51 Tom: Hoped oh god oh jesus fucking shit oh

0:06:02 Eli: Right by your side. I'll be there. Let me get this fucking karaoke machine. Karaoke machine won't start. Give me one second. I'll be there for you. While I'm fucking someone else in our relationship. Be there.

0:06:25 Tom: God but really it just made me feel like he hoped he wouldn't get caught and could maintain a double life felt like the recognized his failure would understand if I kicked him out immediately and I I decided not to, but I left the option open. For the next several weeks, I felt that we were experiencing trauma bonding. As the intimacy increased, talking became more frequent. He began bringing me receipts from his new workplace. He's a delivery driver, and each receipt is time, date, and driver number stamped.

0:06:49 Tom: And really doing anything he could to show me that he was no longer behaving like that. I am not actively having affairs right now.

0:06:56 Eli: Here's my not having an affair receipt god fuck no

0:06:59 Tom: I'm glad we've rebuilt our trust. Since then, we've returned to a great relationship, have made many life decisions together, taken many trips and we've supported our kids through many ups and downs including welcoming a grandchild my issue is this I still haven't let it go completely I remember the date I received the letter four days after my birthday and each year when it comes around I'm reminded of the pain that I suffered it also comes up six months prior to that each year around the time I assume their relationship started our intimacy has all but disappeared he and I are both on psychiatric psychiatric medication, so I know our libidos are shot, but for me, it seems like the spark and infatuation are just gone. Don't get me wrong. I love him. I have no intention of leaving. He is my best friend, and I'm proud that we came through that time. I just don't know how to get this stupid thing out of my head. I've done my own therapy, and the event has even come up in conversation a few times over the years as a couple of our kids got through similar things. He still maintains a level of remorse that, to me, feels genuine. I'm just still stuck in a a weird place. And I feel like I'll never have again with him what I did. I'd love your thoughts on this. I don't really know what I'm asking. Maybe how do I rekindle the spark with someone who cheated eight years ago when I have the memory of that day seared in my mind?

0:07:06 Eli: No you have

0:08:11 Thomas: Eight years ago holy shit also clarifying I've done my own therapy and the event has even come up in conversation a few times over the years as a couple of our kids got through similar things yeah wow

0:08:22 Eli: Not yeah no their kids wife cheated on them and they were like okay well did you apologize the first thing to do is to apologize for never turning them down for sex so there's a couple reasons why I wanted to talk about this first and foremost it's because there's an excuse for not having You have never met a therapist who is not actively forgiving their abuser at all fucking times. Every mental health professional I know will be sitting there with a client being like, you need to set boundaries. This is about you and your peace. And then they'll turn around and be like, my husband hit me with a car again. But, you know, his boundary is the driveway and I was on it. So it's a good reminder that when you are trained in non -judgment, sometimes that training is a little too far. It's like they you know how veterans come home and they're killing machines they can't stop themselves and that's why nick cage is on the plane that's what psychiatrists are like with the shitty people in their lives so look if you had written us this email eight years ago I would have said I don't know what you're talking about we don't have a parenting show I don'T even think we're parents right

0:09:29 Thomas: Wow yeah we're debating people who are pretending to have been liberals before what are you what are you doing

0:09:35 Eli: Yeah exactly and we would have told you at the time that you needed significantly significantly more separation from the relationship that you took. Because what you did is you slapped plaster over the injury. You're still injured, but your partner doesn't see it, right? What you did is you said, Hey, don't worry. I'm going to repaint this wall. You hit with a sledgehammer. And even though they're all the fucking wood and all the slats and shit are broken inside the wall, don't you mind? I'm gonna put a fresh coat of paint on it. And you're almost never going to to have to think about the fact that you hit it with a sledgehammer all those times and then when you check in you know that that structure is still broken and the truth of the matter is that unless you are doing very affirmative transformative therapy together and on yourself right if you're just doing straight up talk to a lady named alice therapy you are never going to fix that damage that damage is done through deep introspection deep work and a change of mindset about how that that made you feel and who you are as a person, right? You can't just occasionally bring it up to Alice and be like, Dr. Alice, I've been meaning to say it's that time of the month. I'm still sad that guy betrayed my trust at the most basic level and I just haven't dealt with it for eight years.

0:10:50 Eli: There's no amount of talking to a lady that will get you over that.

0:10:53 Tom: I would add a couple of things like and I this is going to sound like an asshole thing to say, but it is.

0:10:58 Eli: It's your fault.

0:10:58 Tom: And it is, but like, I would honestly ask like, why fix it? What does fix it mean in this scenario? Like best case scenario, do you think that you're going to be able to get that same sense of like infatuation and desire back? Cause like, if that's the thing that you are trying to get back and find a way back to, like that seems literally impossible to me. That does not seem, I don't think there's any amount of therapy where that piece is going to to come back. Because I think that piece is kind of delicate, right? I think that piece where you're like really hot for each other and infatuated and you just have this sort of like rose -colored glasses on about the other person, that piece is delicate. And like when somebody cheats, that is a betrayal. It's a series of lies. It is not one lie. It isn't one act or action. A six -month -long affair? That is somebody who has said, hey, I don't really respect you. And I I don't respect you so much that I'm going to do this thing, even if you find out and it hurts you, or I so don't expect you, I don' think you're smart enough to catch me. But no matter what, I want to do the thing and I'm willing to lie to you many, many, many times over and I am willing to betray this thing that we have together. Even if the sex isn't even important, it's the lies. It's the betrayal. It's hey, I'm wiling to hurt you and that doesn't really matter that much to me as long as I get something I want from it. How the fuck are you supposed to ever be like, well, forgive and forget. I think this is hot. It's not hot. There's nothing hot about that. Maybe you're not mad, actively mad anymore. But like what you're describing makes all the sense in the world to me because you're never going to forget it. You clearly, twice a year, this comes up in your heart and you feel hurt. You have a right to feel hurt like he had a bullshit reason. He cheated on you for six fucking months. It was like there's a whole identity this was a whole thing this is a series of beaches this isn't one betrayal like this is an entire series of lies and misconceptions that he fed to you and you know shit he was willing to hide like think about like what that means about how little he respects you that's the only way that that happens

0:13:12 Eli: Eight years ago.

0:13:12 Tom: You can't hey yeah eight years ago literally at At what point are you ever going to be like, yeah, it didn't really matter anymore?

0:13:12 Thomas: Yeah yeah

0:13:20 Eli: Yeah.

0:13:20 Tom: I don't know. Like, I don't think that that's a thing. I just don't think that's a thing.

0:13:24 Eli: Here's the problem, though, that complicates it, right. That conversation, the one that Tom is having, that's a really important conversation to have eight years ago, the really hard conversation you have to have now is, well, it's eight years later and I'd like to have the harder version of that conversation. Hey, I'm still lingering with these feelings. I'm really feeling it. I'm feeling really sad. I feel really hurt. It's totally fine for you to feel those feelings, but you have understand that from your partner's perspective, that's two presidential administrations ago. We do not get infinite leeway to just be like, hey, do you remember when you said, oh, it's just like your mother two decades ago? Do you remember that? I'd like to have that argument fresh right now. So part of what you have to own as a part of this, look, the affair, not your fault. The partner cheating, not Your fault. And the betrayal, not your fall.

0:14:13 Thomas: I guess you didn't hear the part where he said she rejected him when he woke her up and was like have sex now and she was like what

0:14:18 Tom: One time on vacation. Yeah.

0:14:22 Eli: I actually think you owned too much of the affair. I don't think you need to own any of the fair. Even in your email, it sounds like you're owning a bunch of the affair. You're owning, a bunch him not going to therapy because he had a bad life. Lots of people my bad lives go watch some national first of all anytime anyone tells you I know this is a side note and I promise I'll get back to my point anytime someone's like I can't do the good thing because I had a hard life just fucking google like african sex slave survivor blank and it'll be some lady who was in nambia and was a sex slave from the age of 3 to 18 and now she's built a school schoolhouse out of fucking willpower and clouds and she teaches kids to read trauma does not necessarily equal to shitting and being shitty to the people around you it's not an excuse it doesn't work it's non -causal so fucking doesn't matter so fuck off with all that to him not you you are a nice and understanding person who's been overly trained in non -judgment but to him fuck off so all that shit you've owned too much of that what you need to own now is that you stored Bored a bunch of it up for too long, and you want resolution, and now the resolution you have to do, unfortunately, doesn't get to be rip the band -aid off resolution. It has to be the slow work of rebuilding trust and having that conversation in a way that acknowledges there have been eight years since that initial betrayal. Because what will feel good, and this is the not fun part, what's going to feel good is to have that conversation like it happened yesterday. Day is to just be mad one day and he comes home and he's like, Hey, what's going on? And you're like, listen, motherfucker, I have a decade old bone to pick with you. Nope. That bone has rotted away. The conversation that needs to have is, Hey I have been dealing with this a lot. I still think about this. We have built a partnership. We are in a partnership we're in a good place together. I believe you. I don't know how, but I believe we're going to be able to do this. We're in good place together, but we need to do some work on that.

0:16:20 Thomas: Are they though

0:16:22 Tom: I would push on that, too. Because, like, what she's describing, the thing that she wants back is she wants to want him again. She wants to feel like that sense of infatuation and that libido and that intimacy, like sexually with him. And she doesn't and like I don't know that that's retrievable I guess is my my like I'm not sure that like you can want to want somebody that has hurt you like that I wouldn't I can imagine being like yeah we're gonna let's keep raising the kids I can image like we can still go to dinner that all is sure but like am I gonna open yeah am I going to like open my heart and my bed and be vulnerable and pretend that like your sexually exciting to me again like I think I think also Also, and like I also do, I honestly

0:16:55 Thomas: They have a grandchild now. Yeah, I would like it if you did that, Tom. But, you know.

0:17:09 Eli: He asks you on a regular basis if you

0:17:12 Tom: And firmly believe that once respect is lost, it's irretrievable. I don't think you can respect somebody the same way again. I think you Can Come Some of the Way Back, but I don' t think you get all the way back. I really don' , I think there' s some shit. It' s like, okay, well, you showed me who you are, and you showed me what I mean to you, and now that' s just it.

0:17:32 Thomas: Now, I will say Tom has a tendency for some very all or nothing binary stuff. I'm not saying it's invalid, but I will Say that, like, maybe that's not everybody's feeling. But I do think I pretty much largely agree. I had a thought. I wonder if you guys would agree with. I thought that if it were me at this point, I'm Not even sure any conversation would involve the cheating. I think it would just be like hey I'm just not really into you anymore you know what I mean like why I don't even know that the cheating part from eight years ago fucking what is that but to eli's point like it's too old now because it's kind of you know but also like it's kinda neither here nor there you know like it's been eight years you're just not into him you just don't have a good relationship you know

0:18:14 Tom: That's what I mean by like I don't know that fixing it is the right like honestly I'd be like cool we raised our kids we've got grandkids now you are a nice person now you weren't a nice person eight years ago that did some damage I still have some life left to live so I'm gonna go find somebody else to live that part of my life with where I can be sexual and free and vulnerable in ways I need to be and like you can be somebody nice that I know and that's

0:18:39 Thomas: Yeah totally agree yeah I would I mean I know you're trying to do a stupid thing you didn't hear it because I edited it out but tom was like oh we're gonna to do a bunch of emails in the intro. But I would be curious for Tom's take on this, because I found myself wondering, like, you know, I pretty much was anticipating and I don't mean that in a bad way, but I was anticipating the Tom response, which I think is pretty reasonable in this case, because like six months, you Know, like these are bad facts.

0:18:50 Eli: Would

0:18:57 Tom: It yeah it's Crazy. Yeah.

0:19:05 Thomas: This is not this is not a not a good. Yeah. But I was wondering, Tom, like do you think there's incidents of cheating or maybe different facts where it's recoverable? And if so, like how how do you Think that's possible? I'm just curious.

0:19:17 Tom: To me, a lot of it would depend on how much lying there was. Yeah, like I think it would be really tough for some. I think for for some people would be impossible to get over. Right. And that's that's fine. That gets to be their prerogative. I do think that there may be some people who could be OK with it. But I think if there's, like, a lot of lying and hiding and obfuscation and duplicity, that's the poison of cheating, right?

0:19:19 Thomas: Like how it happened and stuff. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Mm hmm.

0:19:41 Tom: Like, it's all bad. But the deep poison of treating is being like, well, I fucking can't trust you and you don't respect me.

0:19:41 Thomas: Mm hmm, and the blaming her is like a no. I mean, if that's someone's like first response and then later they're like, oh, fuck, that was shitty. Maybe.

0:19:56 Eli: Right that was the question that popped up for me is like how much has he owned this since then

0:19:58 Thomas: Yeah, like, yeah. Yeah, because that response was fucking stupid. That's that's trash.

0:20:02 Tom: Well, he won't even go to therapy. Like, he's like, okay, well I'll keep you around if we do couples counseling. And he's just like, nah.

0:20:09 Eli: Right that that was someone saying when you set a boundary and he said no and again this was eight years ago I'm sorry that was your opportunity to go where he said hey let's end the relationship right if I tell tom we're only doing this podcast if you put your shirt back on and he doesn't put put his shirt back on podcast has to end.

0:20:10 Tom: What?

0:20:10 Thomas: Well, it's so dumb.

0:20:21 Tom: Exactly. Never.

0:20:28 Thomas: Well, but I told him we're only doing it if he takes it off is the problem. So he's wearing half a shirt. Yeah, he wears like an Aladdin vest. Yes.

0:20:31 Eli: That's true. And so now he wears a tank top. He wears a crop top.

0:20:32 Tom: I'm going to wear a crop top. Yeah, it gets only crop tops. Is there a crop bottom? I'm going to wear a crop bottom. That's just, it's just a belly band. Yeah.

0:20:41 Thomas: Yeah, no, I forget that detail as well. Yeah. This is just a no go. I get out. Just get out of it.

0:20:46 Eli: Ooh, I don't think he can get out of it. I think it's been too long. I think, I think that it is unfair. And again, I am Mr. Drop the marriage.

0:20:52 Thomas: No, just get out of it for any reason.

0:20:54 Tom: Just leave.

0:20:54 Thomas: Like, like she also just people, we, you could just break up with someone normal.

0:20:55 Tom: Just be like, I'm not into you anymore. It's not hot. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

0:20:55 Eli: You're allowed to just do normal breakups. That's through.

0:21:01 Tom: You just be like look, I don't find like this relationship is not attractive to me in the ways I, I think like you deserve to feel attracted to somebody. You deserve to have like a sex life with somebody. You deserve, you deserve to feel like safe and vulnerable wanting and being wanted. Cause like the trouble this writer is in right now is like, she has to to decide, is this something I just am never going to have again in my life?

0:21:24 Eli: Right.

0:21:25 Tom: Because the likelihood of you fully getting over this, if it's been eight years and you haven't gotten over it and you've gone to therapy, you've done all the work. There's no more work for you to do and you're not over it. And that's okay. The next question is like, do I want to live a sexless life? Do I want to without fire and passion and vulnerability and those things that connect you to somebody? Buddy, because that's part of why you don't feel attracted to this person is you don'T feel like you trust and can be vulnerable and respect each other.

0:21:54 Eli: Or do the forgiveness work now, right? Like I don'T, I DON'T want to say that it's, it's either divorce or, or a sexless life. I think you can do that reparative work now. Now, if he is willing to do it, right?

0:22:07 Thomas: Nope.

0:22:07 Eli: The big thing is you have to be like, hey, I need to do this really hard, really deep work now. Or we need to break up.

0:22:20 Ad: [Ad break 2 — ad music]

0:22:22 Tom: Another email. Dear Dads, Hello gents. Long time listener here in need of your wisdom. I find myself in a unique situation. I don't know how to proceed. Recently, I reconnected with a married pair of friends that I've only had passing contact with over the last 20 or so years. At some point, I realized they were poly. I asked a few questions, but I don'T think I've really taken the time to truly wrap my head around their lifestyle. Well, the wife recently started flirting pretty hard. We've had had some limited physical contact. And as it turns out, things with a non -legally bound husband appear to be souring. When I asked if I was being groomed to be his replacement, her response was possibly. Now I'm no, I'm certainly not innocent. I've had my share of fun considering I'm in a sexless marriage. However, I have no interest in leaving my wife because I'd never see my kids again.

0:22:55 Thomas: Not poly. Well, that's a good healthy. Yeah this

0:23:07 Tom: Having some meaningless sex is one thing, but being the secondary husband in this relationship seems like a hell of a leap. Now, Tom, I can already hear you telling me to pretend they're dead. So feel free to take a CrossFit break if you would like. That sounds delightful. Could Thomas and Eli explain how your prototypical poly relationships work? I feel like I need to see an org chart. Yeah, no, this is not, this isn't, yeah, yeah.

0:23:23 Eli: This is not what we have described. Look, I can understand. I know I talk bad, but I know Thomas has not described poly like this.

0:23:23 Thomas: Is, this is not that that though that's not yeah yeah yeah

0:23:35 Eli: So that you can carry away that this is what Thomas thinks.

0:23:38 Thomas: This is someone getting out of a relationship and trying to find a new person that's that poly

0:23:45 Tom: Yeah. Like I know you asked me to take a crossfit break, but like I was in briefly. I was briefly, when I was single, I was briefly in a physical relationship with a woman who was open to that possibility even though she was married because she was in a bad marriage and she would come over and we would fool around and she would talk to me about how her husband sucked and that's the reason that she was open and her marriage was open. And like she caught feelings for sure. And it was like a whole thing because like originally that was not a possibility. She was very insistent on that. And then it turned out that that was not the case right

0:23:47 Thomas: No this is more you than us this is look I don't have any time for poly dating but if I did and when I did the minute someone starts complaining if if they're in a marriage or relationship if they start complaining about it in a way that seems more more than just like, ah, fucker didn't flush the toilet or whatever. The minute that happens, it's a boundary of like, no, this isn't that. That means they're not. Can everybody just stop doing the poly phase before breaking up? Just break up.

0:24:40 Tom: If somebody yeah that's

0:24:48 Eli: Yeah, just break up.

0:24:48 Thomas: Just stop doing the phase where you open up the marriage. Just get out of it. Me?

0:24:48 Tom: Exactly it like and here's the thing dude like you're in a marriage that you don't seem to like and you're afraid to leave no no I know this is the writer op

0:24:55 Thomas: No, I love my man. Oh, you're talking to Lydia. No, I'm just kidding.

0:24:58 Tom: Op like yeah yes no okay op op

0:25:02 Thomas: We know you're editing all the time.

0:25:01 Eli: Lydia, You complain to us about Thomas all the time.

0:25:06 Tom: It's a lot of emails it's a lot he has access to those emails lady it's you sign your name and you put a picture at the bottom

0:25:13 Eli: You're saying if you want to have a poly affair with us before they end their marriage, they can write to us at thedads at dearolddads.com.

0:25:21 Tom: But like this dude also, there's something I wanted to grab.

0:25:23 Eli: You don't get to choose which dad.

0:25:25 Thomas: Oh, roulette.

0:25:28 Eli: It's always Tom.

0:25:28 Tom: Not it. There's something in here I wanted to grab a hold of.

0:25:28 Thomas: That felt cruel. Hold on. What are we doing here?

0:25:32 Eli: Yeah, why are we hurting? Why are we reaching out? Tell me what you're feeling

0:25:33 Thomas: Yeah, that was such a delightful bit. And then all of a sudden,

0:25:38 Tom: Here,

0:25:38 Eli: Tom that makes you lash out like that oh

0:25:41 Tom: I did want to grab hold of this. I thought this was the interesting part for me. So he says, you know, I'm in a sexless marriage. I have no interest in leaving my wife because I would never see my kids again.

0:25:50 Thomas: So you don't want to leave your kids. It sounds like,

0:25:50 Eli: Put that inside your valentine's day card this year fuck

0:25:53 Thomas: I mean,

0:25:54 Tom: Wow. Thomas, that's exactly it. And I just want want to seize on that real quick. It's like, hey, you can leave your spouse without leaving your kids. Everybody should just know that. Those two things are not the same thing.

0:26:08 Thomas: Unless he's doing a, like, Oh, the family's court system is biased against dad's bit or something. Is that what he's going?

0:26:14 Tom: Yeah. I don't know what that is, but just so that people need to hear it, because I think people do stay together for the kids a lot, or they'll stay together out of fear of not seeing their kids. You don't have to really worry about that. You really don't. The courts do not, in almost any circumstances, like they really are they will favor creating situations and working with you to create situations where the kids have access to both parents it's not like it's the 70s and 80s it's not yeah yeah for real it's 2026 things are different don't listen to the mra stuff none of that's real that's all trash it's just objectively not true you can look it up but but you can leave a marriage you're unhappy with and still see your kids a lot.

0:26:41 Eli: Yeah they want you to see your kids yeah this isn't kramer versus kramer no not only is the the mra stuff not true but whenever you mention that there'll be a guy who will be like hey um I heard you say that thing but I want to tell you that I actually had a terrible experience with uh divorce court see I set my kid on fire and just because of that a hundred percent of

0:27:16 Tom: Yes, every time it's like that. Yes, yes.

0:27:20 Eli: They cannot not all you have to do is leave out the information about what a piece of shit you are they can never not do it they're always like and because I drove one fire truck into one 9 -11 memorial they

0:27:32 Thomas: Oh, because one of my kids drowned in Tom's pool. One time they

0:27:33 Tom: Dude, 100%. When my ex and I split up, I saw my kids five days a week. I didn't have primary custody, but I still saw my children five days. I saw them after school.

0:27:43 Eli: Were in flip books but he saw

0:27:46 Thomas: Were being held by invisible man arms.

0:27:49 Eli: Them unless

0:27:50 Tom: I just need to emphasize that. There's a lot of bad stuff out there for guys, for men that is going to tell you a story that's not true it's not true

0:27:58 Eli: Unless podcast podcast listener, open your heart because I'm going to say something brave. Do you maybe suck? Because here's what I've heard. Here's what I've heard, you really want to cheat on your wife because she doesn't fuck you. Not a great sign.

0:28:08 Tom: Yeah

0:28:16 Eli: You don't want to leave because you don't think you'll ever see your kids again. Is that maybe because you suck? Because you might not see your kids again if you suck, right?

0:28:15 Tom: Yeah you only have to worry about that if you suck yeah yeah

0:28:26 Eli: And I know you're thinking, hey, no, that's not me. My wife sucks. I can't speak for two -thirds of the podcast, but I can speak for one -third. Having a sucky wife, They can't keep you from your kids. I think we've experienced maximum wife suckage on this podcast during a divorce situation. And yet Tom still sees his kids. So, you know, yeah, see them too often. Honestly. Yeah.

0:28:45 Tom: Yep see that kids all the time yeah you can see your kids all the time it's it's really like like I will acknowledge though there are some ways that like systems do do make like certain de facto assumptions that are culturally true about who's the primary caregiver. But when it comes to actually writing out the legal documents and securing your rights in court, some really horrible people have huge amounts of access to their kids. I work with so many like single moms who have some of the most deadbeat ass motherfucker dads involved in the picture that still inexplicably have access to those kids. So like, that's just not a thing. It's a terrible myth, and everybody should hear that it's not true.

0:29:30 Tom: All right, so our next email. It's hard to write this to people I listen to a lot but don't actually know. Tom's bit about his ex and also the line about just because you don't like the way I loaded the dishwasher really hit me today. I know you're busy people, but I sort of need to explain this to someone who isn't family or friends because I'm not sure I want to go to all of them with it yet. I don't know if you respond to this kind of email or not, but it's a difficult story. Basically, this is so hard to right, but she has hit our child on a number of occasions. She has a family with a history of mental health difficulties. She's also smashed furniture. It isn't just at home. She hates all of her workmates, argues fiercely, doesn't speak to most of her family for months. I try everything every day, more work, more housework, take another chore offer and another and another and another to the point where I'm physically and mentally exhausted. I've reached a point where I think if she won't accept some sort of help for anger issues, then for the sake of the child, I have to make a big call and divorce. And I've just had the kids saying, please don't divorce because he heard all of our last argument. Yeah, you gotta divorce. Yeah.

0:30:24 Thomas: Oof uh pass I don't know this one's this one'S too hard it's too hard I don'T can't well can we get like any if we pass can we get an easier one and then do we get because lydia hits the kids no the kids hit lydia there's

0:30:27 Eli: Pass. Interesting. Because Lydia hits the kids. Is that why it's too hard? Yeah.

0:30:40 Thomas: No couldn't be less of a yeah lydia needs to hit the kids more like that would actually a therapist would come in and observe and be like you should probably hit them or something like you're getting your ass kicked by

0:30:42 Eli: Can confirm. Yes. We need to do a car wash fight between Lydia and your kid. Okay

0:30:55 Thomas: Them and they don't seem to fear you in any

0:30:57 Eli: We remake enough right but it's just lydia and remy and at the end she kicks him off a glass balcony through a table uh yeah you gotta get a divorce gotta get divorced here podcast listener let me make this really easy for you yeah you ready I hit your kid oh look at that I'm dead right you see how dead I am I'm not saying you have to murder them you don't have to murder your partner, right?

0:31:03 Thomas: Way you

0:31:22 Eli: But the reason I'm dead is because it's the quickest and funnest way to remove your child from danger. Now, luckily for you, you can just divorce this person. You don't have to murder them, but you should divorce them because the damage they're doing to your kids is significantly greater than the temporary unhappiness divorce calls. I will also point out that this is not spoken a lot, that while divorce is certainly unpleasant and while nobody Nobody, like, fucking loves the process of figuring out how to share kids and deal with kids. A tremendous amount of adults whose parents had divorced in childhood report that they were actually much happier after

0:31:16 Thomas: Don't have to

0:31:23 Tom: Well, you can.

0:32:02 Thomas: Yeah

0:32:02 Eli: Their parents got out of their unhappy marriage.

0:32:04 Thomas: Because they're not for example overhearing entire arguments like this

0:32:08 Tom: You got to take those kids. You got a boogie, right? You should leave with the kids. That's the thing you can do. You gotto do that, though. Like, there's an order of operations that I want to, like, talk about. The first thing you need to do is get an attorney who can give you advice. Like, real advice. That's what you need. That's real advice is the first thing you need to do. At the same time that you're doing that, you need to begin a rigorous process of documentation. You need to document dates, times, events that occurred. You needs to get other people to corroborate that if this person is shitty with other people. Yeah. You need to have as much documentation as you can possibly have because the likelihood of somebody with anger issues taking this and being fucking chill about it is zero. So you need to walk in with receipts and all of that work needs to be done before this person finds out you're doing any of this work.

0:32:14 Eli: Video, audio. Yeah.

0:32:59 Tom: Then you needto take those kids. Right now, you as a parent can take the kids anywhere you want. You can take your kids and go live with your dad. That's fine. It's not kidnapping it's totally fine to do something like that but like as soon as like there's a custody arrangement even a temporary one even if there's like a temporary custody arrangement if you have the kids during time that is not yours you're legally in a lot of trouble so you need to get out get safe get the kids out get them safe have an attorney begin a rigorous process of documentation you can't stay together for the kids this is somebody who like you're describing is a fucking miserable angry person that hurts your kids that's it that's if you don't have a red line there I don't know what your red line is

0:33:11 Eli: It's just napping kids. Fuck you. Fuck you!

0:33:14 Thomas: Oh but if I take them no I'm just kidding

0:33:38 Eli: They're kids! Your kids! That's it!

0:33:47 Tom: And like even if this person really what they need is psychiatric counseling that's awesome they should get that but that's got nothing to do with you and your kids anymore that's just some work they have to do

0:33:57 Thomas: Well and I and I would say even if you still were wanting to salvage the relationship somehow you still need to first separate them from the kids and have them fix themselves.

0:34:08 Tom: Yeah you can get back together if you want but like you can't live there anymore yeah

0:34:08 Eli: Yeah. I mean, don't, but you can.

0:34:13 Thomas: Yeah. Hypothetically, you could.

0:34:13 Tom: Right yeah it's fucking bonkers in Thomas's world. Yeah. Yep.

0:34:13 Eli: You can do a lot of things. Take up CrossFit, too. There's lots of bad ideas you can do. Tom spoke to something really important just now, which is the sort of like, this person needs to do work on themselves. Who am I to leave them mentality? And let me say this. I have been a bad partner. Bad partner, piece of shit, mean to my partners, unkind, bad, unsupportive partner. I don't think I've been abusive. But I know I was a bad partner. And a lot of people stayed with me because I needed to do the work on myself. Them staying with me never made me do the work on myself, it enabled me to not do the work on myself. And it was the people who stopped taking my shit that made me turn around and do the work. So losing access to their kids might be the thing that helps this person make better choices, right? Because they're not going to make changes if they don't have to. People will only change when they are forced to no one ever goes we me and tom were talking about this the other day because he was like oh you should say and I was like nope no one ever changes because you ask nicely ever he's

0:34:52 Thomas: Interesting.

0:35:23 Tom: Yep, yep. I also think maybe you leaving with the kids will be the thing, right? But it can't be your responsibility. It's not because you have no control over it. So you cannot be responsible for things you can't control. That's not how responsibility works. It just not. You have control over your kids' well -being, your own own well -being as well. There's no way you're happy in a situation where somebody has anger management problems to the degree that you've expressed. Somebody who has no friends, somebody who's constantly angry, somebody who's consistently bitching. Look, I know people like this. They take a huge toll on everybody around you.

0:35:59 Eli: On a podcast with me yeah

0:36:02 Tom: They took a massive toll on everyone around you, around them rather. It's not good. It is not good for you. Everybody is going to suffer if you don't take action you just have to leave you just like have to be like oh you know what if there's nothing else the one thing that is sacrosanct is like we don't hit each other or we don't hit the kids like this is like physical violence if you can't draw the line of physical violence I wonder where the line would be is there no meaningful line this other this person could just literally do whatever they want to do and it's fucking cool if they're sick fuck that fuck that no way all right we're going to do something unprecedented. It's a fourth email.

0:36:45 Ad: [Ad break 3 — ad music]

0:36:47 Thomas: Holy shit. Tom, sometimes I have to eat my words, but I have super eat my word because not only do we get through three, we're going to do another other one

0:36:56 Tom: We'll do another one. Here we go. Hey dads, long time listener of both the show and your independent shows. Grateful for the work that you do. I recognize that this isn't traditional parenting advice, but I'm hoping for some parental perspectives on this since I don't have great dad figures in my life to go to for advice. There's a huge amount of backstory, but it's mostly boring, filled with red flags. And as Thomas might jokingly say, y'all probably don't care. Well, I would like to preface this by saying Thomas cares more than we do.

0:36:57 Eli: Shit

0:37:17 Thomas: What yeah yeah what or maybe they're saying like I would say that maybe are they saying like I would say that about something I was saying you know what I mean like I would downplay you know like if I were maybe that's what it is because otherwise this is a bit I'm trying to figure out if I'm under attack too you know I'm try I don't know what's happening

0:37:17 Eli: That's crazy because thomas cares so much that's like not even a little his catchment as thomas always says I love to hit women.

0:37:35 Eli: Maybe that's it. You guys don't fucking care. Yeah.

0:37:43 Tom: Yeah, I don't either.

0:37:43 Eli: You uncaring piece of shit.

0:37:47 Tom: I would like to preface this by saying I recognize I'm some sort of perfect amalgamation of all the problematic things y'all have talked about on this show. And feel free to make fun of all the dumb decisions I made while my frontal lobe was still developing. The short version is

0:37:54 Thomas: Here oh doesn't sound

0:38:01 Eli: Permission granted. Thank you, listener. Second only to the can I buy a sex doll listener. We are in. Yeah.

0:38:06 Thomas: Good oh my god let's do that one again

0:38:09 Tom: Let's just only do that one the short version is I got into a relationship when I was 22 with a 41 year old man 19 year age gap thanks for doing that math for me moved across the country to be with him did kink and poly poorly for five-ish years and have basically been in the roommate stage the last two years I tried to break it off last year but he basically begged me to stay with him and I agreed on the condition that we both go to individual counseling to work on our codependency issues hoping that would lead to healing our intimacy issues as well we recently had a talk where he told me he hadn't seen any changes in me in the last year. He's given up trying, and if he's feeling sexual, he just doesn't see me as an option. Yet after this big talk, we've continued on as if it never happened, going on dates, planning an annual kink event together, etc. My therapist, close friends, and family all agree that he's manipulating and gaslighting me into staying with him, and I've finally decided I'm just done. So here's my issue. I'm 27 with a failing business as an independent hairstylist and working retail on the side. And I live in expensive Washington state with a very small local social network and no family locally that can support slash assist me long-term. I have an associates in business that I was planning to turn into a bachelor's, but I got spooked when my relationship almost ended last year and I've lost all motivation to finish. If I'm honest, I can continue to work in salons for a couple more years, but I'm incredibly burned out and I have never made enough to support myself even when I wasn't working independently. I've weighed lots of career options, finished business school, radiology tech program, find a different bachelor's that sounds appealing. But no matter how I square it, I'm about two to three years of schooling away from having a steady career where I can realistically live independently without working two to Three jobs. My best friend in St. Louis has offered to let me live with her almost rent for a year or two until I can get back on my feet. I also have a situation ship, please remember I'm poly, lol, in the Bay Area that is offered the same thing. I could move back home to my parents in DC for ayear or two, but they're about to retire to Oregon in the next couple of years. And quite frankly, I hate the idea of burdening them with a kid moving back in right when they're About to enjoy retirement. Currently, the best sounding plan is to move to St. Louis and work my ass off at a few different jobs to save and start radiology tech school next year. That will get me on my feet in three -ish years and I can move almost anywhere with that career and support myself. Do y 'all have any advice on starting over in early adulthood? I know I'm in a really decent spot, no kids, no real responsibilities other than taking care of myself and young enough to work long hours and study hard to get where I need to be. Much like Tom was able to articulate on an episode a while back, I'm one of those people that doesn't really have a passion in life. I just want a career that pays the bills, makes life comfortable without feeling too overworked. I'm also feeling the pressure of reaching my 30s and not having to plan for my life or really that much that I'm proud of I know this is an incredibly long email I fully understand if it never makes the show but any advice you have would be incredible thanks for reading confused in her 30s confused in their 20s rather she

0:38:18 Eli: Get

0:38:44 Thomas: That's weird wow wait so was this the uplifting one what what happened uh okay

0:39:47 Eli: Away for a fucking paragraph, you ADHD bitch. See? It was a sentence away. Fuck. Yeah, I was going to say. Holy shit she aged three years at the time it's a yeah so here's the thing podcast listener because I have been a person in their 20s who has had to start over if you've been listening to shows for a while you know that I had toy store job I was all set U.S. Representative company sabotaged

0:41:09 Thomas: Okay yeah yeah it was a long email unless

0:41:09 Tom: Hates a lot it's a long email it's a fucking long

0:41:25 Eli: By the guy who runs the fucking e -commerce version of alibaba and then my entire job evaporates and the thing I do sometimes with some work acquaintances is my job now I know how scary that is, and I know what a point of failure it feels like, but what I hope my co -hosts agree with me in saying is that it is not a point -of -failure. It's a brand -new beginning. It is a really exciting opportunity for you to turn... What you have done is you have taken a bad story, you have taking a bad situation, and you have turned it around, and your going to turn it into a great situation, right? Whether it is St. Louis, or the situation ship, or even your parents, who by the way fucking love you all they think about all the time is how much they miss you because you're their best friend and then you grew up and moved away so keep that in mind they're not going to be like ah fuck now we can't fuck in the sewing room anymore they're also happy that's true you might have shitty parents yeah I always forget that shitty parents

0:42:12 Thomas: You have tom's dad that's the only you know that'd be the

0:42:18 Eli: Exist the point is you have not failed in any way lots of people make way worse hey there are people who are shitty to other people all throughout their 20s and then have to restart and build themselves anew. I'm not going to name names, which hosts they're on the podcast, but it's me. You got to own the fact that you are making great decisions. And I know when you are 27 and it's a significant percentage of your life to say, oh, I've got to start over and it is going to take three years to rebuild. But as someone who is now almost 40, three years is no time.

0:42:15 Tom: Email yeah

0:42:19 Thomas: Only

0:42:54 Tom: That's exactly right

0:42:54 Eli: Not only is it no time but it's also going to feel so fast right and you're going to meet so many cool people and you're gonna do so many cool things the refresh and the restart is going to be such a hopeful wonderful thing for your life that you will just remember it as the time you like made a bet on yourself oh

0:43:12 Tom: Yeah I would add like it's funny because I read this email and I was like but you have already figured this out you've already figured it out like you already know like hey I have all these options and I'm in a really good place to do this thing. There's like a window in your life where you can hit the big reset button without causing catastrophic financial and social damage, right? And sometimes it's worth it. Sometimes you need to hit that big reset button. The other emails we just talked about are places where you should hit the reset button regardless of what the consequences are. But you're young enough and you have enough flexibility in your wife that you're looking at this and saying, ah, but it'll it'll take me two to three years. That's nothing. Time goes faster the older you get too. Like next year will seem, every year seems faster. Two years is fucking nothing. And you can hit the reset button right now, socially, financially, educationally, and you pay no price for it. That window, that opportunity to reinvent the self, it's closing all the time, all the time. So this is your chance to be a new version of you. And you kind of already have more options than so many other people. You just got to pick which version of like the reset you want.

0:44:24 Tom: I think this sounds terrific. Good for you.

0:44:26 Eli: Yeah absolutely and when I say that yes I mean in a glorious way I don't mean it in a like you're ungrateful way I mean fuck yes use that fantasticness

0:44:37 Thomas: That turned out great guys you're

0:44:40 Eli: Get it in there all right I guess thomas actually didn't give a fuck good prediction listener all right gentlemen before we go and get off air so we can yell at thomas for his uncaring unfeeling ways as per usual the thomas smith special did you know you have two wolves inside you but mozart had seven or eight wolves inside him. That's why we called him Wolfgang.

0:44:49 Clip: DEAR OLD DADS

0:45:14 Thomas: Right not as

0:45:16 Tom: Oh, that was exceptionally bad, actually.

0:45:19 Thomas: Bad as my delivery for the joke I did wrong I was trying to go for like hey you guys won't believe this it turned out great like you wouldn't you're never gonna believe like like I was giving you news but now I did I just that was bad acting it just was bad didn't work out

0:45:29 Eli: See you later now. Think of every major event where I would be there with a sticky dick just wet with another woman's fluids.

0:46:27 Thomas: Oh because one of my kids drowned in Tom's pool one time.

0:46:32 Eli: Wait for a fucking paragraph, you ADHD bitch!