DOD282: A Talent Show with No Talent

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's tap dancing its way into your hearts. I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:38 Eli: Wow, you would throw tap dancing in my face like this, Tom. Knowing my history, knowing what I've been through, knowing when I've lost, tap dancing? Really?

0:00:46 Tom: Can you imagine me tap dancing? Can you image it? Oh my God. Did you guys ever do a talent show?

0:00:49 Eli: Oh, I was just thinking over here about my intact first marriage, Tom, is what I was thinking about over here. Yeah, of course.

0:01:02 Thomas: Uh, yeah,

0:01:02 Tom: You were in a talent show? I don't even remember my school having a talent talent show. That doesn't mean that we didn't have one, let me be very clear. My school may have had the biggest talent show in the fucking tri-county region and I would have been like oblivious to it. So I want to make that

0:01:04 Eli: Yeah!

0:01:04 Thomas: I don't think we had them. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Well,

0:01:17 Tom: Extremely clear. Eli, you

0:01:22 Eli: Well, I did, um,

0:01:24 Tom: Were a talent show kid. What did you do? What's your talent? It was hula hooping. I feel like it was whooping, hula hoop.

0:01:24 Eli: I'm sure I did every talent show that ever, any school I ever was allowed to attend, I sang or acted or did something, and I fucking...

0:01:31 Thomas: Eventually that was when, was that when you came out as a roaster? Was that one that was at camp or something? Was it a talent show or something I've seen? It's been a while since you...

0:01:37 Eli: It was. It was a talent show. It was an end of camp talent show was that moment. And then in college at NYU, I did the talent show, which I lost. I did magic and I lost spectacularly.

0:01:41 Thomas: Right. Yeah. Yeah I just want to go back to Eli becoming a roaster. I want to, I want, to see the like, you know, Neo and the Matrix.

0:01:54 Tom: The origin story.

0:01:55 Eli: Yes. Yes.

0:01:55 Thomas: Yeah when like, when he starts to see how everybody's sensitivities and yeah, he's like, he is really self -conscious about this and she's just like, it all makes sense to him.

0:01:59 Eli: Everyone turns into green letters just running in front of my eyes. Yes! Bidibidibidi. Yeah, mind reading powers. Exactly. It all came together and got better from there. But yeah, no, I was a total talent show kid. And then I lost one in college because I was among actual Talent people. And I was like, ah, fuck shit. I guess podcaster then. Huh? No.

0:02:08 Tom: Yeah.

0:02:20 Thomas: Did you actually tap dance or is that a joke?

0:02:23 Eli: The, so do you not know that tap dancing with the fucking losing.

0:02:25 Thomas: Oh crap. I don't, it's not coming to mind.

0:02:26 Tom: No, I don't think so.

0:02:27 Eli: The Book of Mormon. I've told this story a million times. I can't believe you guys haven't heard this about me auditioning for The Book of Mormon.

0:02:31 Thomas: Maybe I just need a slight prompt.

0:02:32 Tom: I mean, I don't listen to a lot of the things that you say.

0:02:34 Thomas: Well, Well, the Book of Mormon. Yeah. Was that a tap dancing thing? What?

0:02:36 Eli: Yeah, yeah, because I had tap dancing on my resume, and they were like, "Here you are at the final auditions for Book of Mormon. It's time to do tap dancing," and I, I was like, "Oh, I, I lied about that on my resume," and they were like, "Cool, go home."

0:02:39 Thomas: Oh, oh, wow.

0:02:52 Tom: So that's fucking great.

0:02:53 Thomas: I don't remember you telling me the actual reason for that.

0:02:55 Tom: I don't remember that either. Yeah.

0:02:56 Eli: Oh God.

0:02:56 Thomas: Yeah, I thought you were just it was so raw. I don't think you were able to talk about it. Wow.

0:03:00 Tom: I would

0:02:59 Eli: Oh. My God, yeah, I, that's my, that's my favorite story. I tell that story just constantly to my students. Whenever my students have an interview and I need to convince them not to lie on their resume, that is the story.

0:03:11 Tom: Say this though: in the rest of your life, rely on your resume. No one checks it. No one calls your references, and no one checks your resume. None of that's real.

0:03:21 Thomas: I have a talent show memory. I just realized I need to say so quickly. I think you're going to want to hear this. In my high school, we had some sort of talent show once a year and or maybe they started doing one way or the other. I remember two two of them. I remember junior and senior junior year. I did a tenacious D with my friend and actually people loved it. Yeah, I did. I Did the, uh, the medley, like the Sasquatch one from the actual, like it has some of the songs from the album, but from the TV show, they do like a different version of the song and people actually really loved it, but we didn't win. Cause what one was, and this is what I want to tell you, I'm realizing in real time, in retrospect, something something quite problematic which was a bunch of girls now they were seniors at least I guess I could say they did I want to say moulin rouge I haven't seen moulins rouge but they did something where they were all in lingerie performing what's

0:03:25 Eli: Yeah.

0:03:40 Tom: Oh hell yeah.

0:04:13 Tom: Cool, cool.

0:04:13 Thomas: The song yeah what's one eli uh he had it coming hey you know I remember this from literally oh chicago okay that's the wrong I had this one I haven't thought about this since then and just to show you how my mind works I remember the song like I haven'T heard it any other time it's like yeah coming all along I didn't know what it was but anyway that's what they were singing and they did it in like

0:04:19 Eli: That's Chicago. Lydia is screaming right now.

0:04:38 Eli: Yeah, Chicago, that's from

0:04:39 Tom: Neat. Very

0:04:37 Thomas: Lingerie or something, and I okay well I loved it as a kid as someone their age or actually one year younger than them I was thrilled but in retrospect I realized like they won it hands down now was it for for good reasons?

0:04:54 Tom: Chill.

0:04:55 Thomas: Or was it because they were high school girls who got in lingerie for a thing?

0:04:59 Tom: I want to know who the judges were. Were the judges student judges? Because that matters now. That's a fucking problem, right? When a bunch of children, like, let's, let's say what it is out loud, when a lot of children are on stage in their underwear and the grown-ups in the room are like, "That's the winning talent right there," that's fucking, that is the chill. Costuming, costuming matters. Like, nope.

0:05:03 Thomas: I think they were teachers. They were, they were teachers. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, they were good. They're good. So at least there's some plausible deniability there. But yeah, no, that's, yeah that's a weird, I don't remember anyone, I mean I don' t know that I would have heard it. I don t remember anyone commenting on it or making any observation about it. It's weird how normal it was. And then I think about it. I'm like, maybe it is normal. It just is uncomfortable. Like I'm uncomfortable thinking about it now. Back then, like the teachers seeing that or the male teachers judging it.

0:05:42 Tom: No, that's weird. That's fuckin' weird. I also think like I I will Talent shame here. Like if Aislinn was like, hey, I want to perform in sexy underwear on stage and I'm a child, I'd be like, oh, cool. Well, you're not doing that because that's fucking insane. So of course I'm not going to let a child stand in front of a group of people and perform in Sexy Underwear.

0:06:03 Thomas: To be fair, that's how they all dress now just every day. So back in the early aughts though.

0:06:07 Tom: Fuck that. I'd be like, no, I'm sorry. You're not going to wear Sexy underwear onstage and perform.

0:06:13 Thomas: Yeah. But then senior year, I won the talent show with my band. So, you know, small school, but I feel proud of it.

0:06:21 Tom: Man, I wish I'd had a Talent I should have had a Talent That's...

0:06:21 Thomas: Pretty cool. We were in lingerie, that's why we're like, I see how this works, and

0:06:26 Eli: Chicago and gentlemen, do you know the only thing worse than the fact that you didn't get to see Thomas Smith in high heels and stockings, or how Lydia felt when Thomas didn't know the "He Had It Coming" number from Chicago? Why, it's the auto ants ruining your podcast experience. But you can make that all go away, podcast listener. You can make the silence overtake you, the silence of being a patron over at patreon.com forward slash Dear Old Dads, where for as little as a dollar you get a commercial-free version of every show, a little parenting story of the end. I have set myself up for pain and suffering as a Talent, and I told you all about it on last week's show. How does it result? We'll find out.

0:07:08 Eli: Not this week, but next week, maybe. We'll Find Out.

0:07:10 Thomas: Also, I'm excited to find out that, apropos of the last episode, Lydia will divorce me, but because of this musical thing. Like, she'll be like, no, yeah, there's, there's all these problems, but yeah, like you didn't know Chicago versus whatever the other one

0:07:16 Tom: This is it? Yeah, that's, that's the last straw. Yeah.

0:07:16 Eli: That's right. It's the divorce, musical divorce thing. Yes. I'm sure she chimed in. Her actual audio chimed in just to say the word Chicago while we were talking, and who could blame her? So yeah, Yeah, check it out over at patreon .com forward slash dear old dads. Rip into it.

0:07:23 Tom: Yeah. I

0:07:25 Thomas: Yeah, so

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0:07:43 Thomas: Dudes, I wanted to tell you about something that I am, we are so proud of. This is like one of the biggest parenting wins ever, and I don't even know if I can call it a parenting win. It's just something that happened with our kids that I'm really, really, really happy about. So, you know, longtime listeners will know that Phoebe, I think, has some anxiety problems. She just put it lightly. I think she really does have a lot of anxiety problems and we would do sports.

We would do hockey. And there were things she loved doing hockey with me. It wasn't that I was making her do something she didn't like. She actually kept telling me like, oh, I want to just do it with us, you now. But when I take her to just just the skate. And it was like just a practice where it was like a million kids, you know, it's not a focus on her or anything, but she could not do it.

And the way that she could not do, it was almost traumatizing to see her go through what clearly was the most anxiety in the world. She'd lose her mind just at the thought of going to this skating class. I don't know why exactly, because I didn't have that exact kind of anxiety, but something close. I had performance anxiety for matches. I've talked about it for games. But I think hers was so bad, just that whole environment, she couldn't even do it.

Well, as listeners might also know, we got her on medication and I can't know for sure if that's what did it. But, I will say, the other day, about two weeks ago, Phoebe kept asking me when I was doing something, but she's like, hey dad, can you hear my poem? And I was like, yeah, of course. And she had to do, it wasn't hers that she wrote, but he had to recite a poem. And she was like like, yeah, help me do it.

I was like, oh, this is awesome. I'm so excited to do this. She gives me the little sheet. And she's so proud. It's this shell Silverstein thing. It'S a hot dog with everything.

0:09:24 Tom: Fucking love Shel Silverstein.

0:09:24 Thomas: It's a little silly. Yeah, it's little silly kid thing. Like, you know, the hot dog basically came with all this stuff, you know, like a bike and a blah, blah, blah. And so that's the last time I'll order a hotdog with everything or whatever. And so she was trying to get it. She was super proud. And then she tells me, like, she messed up a few times and she was still working on it. But she's like, Yeah, what they do is if I, if I take my little paper to teachers and I recite it successfully in front of them, they give me like a, you know, a mark or a stamp or whatever. And then if I get enough of those, there's a raffle drawing thing. And the winners get to say their poem in front of the whole school. And I was like, first off, I was like, I'm not saying anything. Cause I don't want to, I don't want to. Yeah.

0:10:02 Tom: The winner gets to have most people's nightmare. That's what the winner

0:10:05 Thomas: I was like ,I DON'T WANT TO FUCK THIS UP. I, cause I know my first thing I want to say is be like, Oh, so you're going to die though. Like if you do that, right? Like you're you're going to die. And just in my mind for her, like I would probably have tried to do it as a kid because I liked that kind of thing. But then I like literally would have had a heart attack while I did it. That was my relationship to that stuff. But I very much don't want to put a thumb on the scale, but I asked her, I was like, oh, wow, you want to do that? And she not only wanted to do It, she was like dead set on it. She's like, I have to win.

0:10:35 Thomas: I have to get my name called. I just really want to do it. So like some time goes by and I follow up and I was like, hey, what, what happened with that? Did you get drawn? Like, is your name drawn? And at first she seemed to say like, oh no, like she thought maybe she didn't get it or something. But then it turns out maybe they just hadn't done it. Cause the other day she's like, guess what? She's like, check your email. And she told both of us, check your email. I'm like, okay, check my email. There's nothing there. She's like, well, I think you're supposed to have an email that for everybody who's gonna do the poetry reading thing, their parents should get an email.

0:10:34 Tom: Hell

0:11:03 Eli: I have a listener who's responding to an argument I made in 2018. They think it's about something that happened this week, and they're in a casual conversation with me about it mid -flow. Is that it? Is that what I'm supposed to do? Bunch of people here who say, want to kill all the snakes.

0:11:10 Thomas: Yeah. Is that the email? Was that the mail? Yeah, so we didn't get an email, which sucks, but, uh But she was like, well, I'm doing the reading. I got drawn. I'm doing the, the reading in front of the school, and it's basically, I think it was the whole school. So like kindergarten through, or maybe even TK through, like sixth, I think it is. I don't know. It's a classic. Tell me the name of the school and I'll go pick them up. Uh, but anyway, I was like, wow. So now it's going to happen. And I'm still thinking, I'm worried because Phoebe always used to have the thing where she gets excited about something. And then obviously when she gets to it, she has a heart attack and can't do it.

0:11:32 Eli: No

0:11:59 Tom: Yeah, yeah.

0:11:59 Thomas: And I was, I Was a little worried, but she was so happy about it. She so wanted to do it I asked Like, can we go? And Lydia was like, I don't, I don't think any parents are going. Turns out later parents did go, which fucking sucks. I didn't know you could go. I would have gone. Yeah. I think maybe we were supposed to.

0:12:11 Tom: Oh no. Oh, that sucks so bad. Did this school not send you an email about

0:12:13 Eli: She looked out and you weren't there Oh hero, oh

0:12:17 Thomas: No, I haven't found out. I think maybe that's what happened. Cause she said we were exposed to have one and neither of us did. It wasn't like we didn't check it. I know I'm, I'm upset, but anyway, she's going to do the poetry reading. And again, I'M NOT, IM NOT EVER SAYING LIKE YOU'RE GOING TO BE NERVOUS. I'M JUST LIKE, like, Oh, I'm really excited. And I, she practiced in front of us and I was like, Hey, yeah, just, I try to give her little tips, just like try to speak very clearly. Cause then people will hear the words and it will be really, I think you'll be, you'll stand out.

0:12:24 Eli: Hero, yeah, hero, I wanted to stay cool. So I was like don't fuck up I'm

0:12:47 Thomas: No, I was giving her tips. She was wanting, she was wanting to practice. I was Like, yeah. Make sure to say, you know, I'm Phoebe Smith. And you know she was planning like what she was going to say. And then I thought that was super cute. I Was Like, Yeah. And this, yeah well I'm doing the, uh, the whiplash thing. Yeah. I I was doing the whiplash thing, not my

0:13:04 Tom: This

0:12:56 Eli: Picturing Thomas in like a director's chair wearing Stop acting Yeah, not quite my shells ever seen.

0:13:04 Thomas: Shell silver. I don't know. Not my stanza. No. I don't know. Yeah. Not my iambic pentameter. But I'm worried. Like, I'm really worried that this is going to be a horrific experience for her. Like, I'm actually like pretty worried about it. Because imagine my sweet child who has these problems, wanting to do this thing, looking forward to it so much in the world, winning the drawing, whatever, and then getting up there and having a heart attack. I was torn.

Part of me is almost like, should we have told her to not do it just in case she dies? But no, didn't want to do that. But I am nervous.

Service, and then she gets home that day. It's obviously the first thing I asked her about, and it was a success. She managed to do it. She she was like, well, it was scary, but I did it. And this was an interesting experience. She said, yeah, um, this one girl, she couldn't do it. She froze up and she couldn't do it. And I was like, this is incredible, that's the first time that hasn't been my kid. That's literally the first time in my entire life of parenting that it wasn't my kid who couldn't do the thing. Like, that's like, it's always my kid and I'm like, like I just, I've said this before.

It's always my kid that can't do whatever the performance is. They can't, and I'm not, you know, I'm like mad at them. It's just like, it gets a little sad after like time

0:13:43 Tom: Hell yeah, that's awesome.

0:14:16 Tom: You feel bad for him.

0:14:16 Thomas: After time to go to the, yeah, to go to The Thing and have your kid be the one that has the meltdown and like, oh man, it's too bad. And you want them to just do this thing. And they also want to do The Thing. I'mnotlikeadancemom trying to get them to, it was like, they also wants to do whatever The Thing is.

0:14:16 Eli: Oh, of course 100 % Yeah Yeah. Can't do the birthday party activity or whatever the fuck it is. See, that's where our bad spark is. My kid's fucking rocking out to his own tune.

0:14:35 Tom: Yeah.

0:14:35 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. And Phoebe will be practicing and wanting to do it. And then it's been, you know, she hasn't been able to do It. But not only did she do It, she wasn't the kid that couldn't do It and there was another kid.

0:14:45 Tom: Hell yeah.

0:14:45 Thomas: And yeah, I was just like, this is amazing. She was so happy. You guys can roast me though. Cause she did say, well, I don't know. I didn't, I think I spoke clearly enough. And I was like, don't worry about it. I was like minor tip. I'm sure you were great. I bet she was incredible. No, she said like parents could come and she understood. Cause we didn't get the email And we were mad. We're like, they could. And we're so upset. So she wasn't mad at us. It was a thing that like, you know, it happened to us. That wasn't us. And I think she understood that.

0:14:55 Tom: You're a failure. You're a fucking failure.

0:15:00 Eli: It's okay. Me and your mom weren't there anyways. We couldn't be bothered. So, you know.

0:15:16 Eli: I think it was your fault. Yeah.

0:15:16 Thomas: But basically, this could be a really, really big medication success story. It's possible it's not, but I think the odds are low. And I do want to say that because there is still so much resistance to medication. And obviously, it's not just like whatever's wrong with your kid, give him a pill. But there are very real things that are very wrong that medication very helps with. And like my brother's doctor, when he asked, like, are you worried about her being on these pills this young and this long, he said, I'm worried about her brain from the anxiety this long. And he was like, oh yeah, that's a good point. You know, like, living with anxiety can warp your brain a bit, you know, it's not good for you. And if indeed this medication is helping, I just want to put that out there that, like, this is a massive success story. I I can't believe, like, I'm speechless that she did this. Again, she couldn't even get in the car to go to a practice. She was so anxious before.

0:16:12 Tom: I know this has nothing to do with kids real quick, and I'm not going to hijack it, but did I ever tell you about the time I went bungee jumping and the first guy who volunteered to go bungee jump he couldn't do the bungee jump. So this is just real fast. So like, I went bungee jumping with a good friend of mine, um, in California. So we hike up to the middle of nowhere and there's this bridge and you jump off the bridge. Southern California, in the Redlands area. So so it's called the Bridge to Nowhere. So it's like a bridge that was constructed and then the rest of the road was not constructed, so now people just like hike up there and then bungee jump off of it. So like me and my buddy and his girlfriend at the time, now wife, we are all gonna go bungee jumped. So we hiked up there, we go and And, like, his wife is, she was like, I'll go first. So, like for, you know, for the women, like she goes up and she just jumps right off. No problem. Has a great time.

0:16:12 Eli: It's awesome.

0:16:21 Thomas: Died. Oh. Yeah.

0:16:31 Thomas: In California, where were you? Nice.

0:16:58 Thomas: Didn't even tie the bungee cord onto her. Yeah, they were just like, oh, whoops.

0:17:01 Tom: They're like, who wants to go, you know, for the guys or whatever. And, kind of, there's nobody volunteering. And, somebody kind of tentatively raises their hand. And, this guy gets up there. And, he, like everyone counts down, you'll 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. And, his dude just makes the mistake of looking down. And, gets the one. He looks straight down. His knees buckle. And, just falls off of the level platform.

0:17:05 Thomas: Huh. Oh, my God.

0:17:20 Eli: It's good for him.

0:17:20 Tom: So, he did bungee jump. But he, like, bungee fell instead of bungee. So, yeah, you know, it could be where I'm just saying, like, no.

0:17:22 Thomas: Wow.

0:17:22 Eli: Yeah. Bungie fall. Bungies sad. Good.

0:17:26 Thomas: But wait, did he try to say, like he didn't want to go or did he?

0:17:30 Tom: He just, you could just see that, like, he looked down and he literally his knees went weak from fear and he just fell. He just literally Like, you could see his just knees go out from under him and he just tumbled off the side of it. Yeah, yeah.

0:17:31 Thomas: Oh, okay. Wow. Yeah.

0:17:37 Eli: Good. Side note, Because I do want to get back to Thomas's glorious moment. And I also really think that it's important to note how successful medication is. The younger, the better. Like that's another thing that doesn't get talked about enough. It's like people are like, oh, they're so young. It seems too young to start them on meds. But like the younger you start them on meds, the more it can be a part of their development as opposed to trying to start a teen who feels weird when they take their medication and then lies to you. But yeah, yeah, it's not good to have bad shit going on in your brain and all that. But let me ask you something more important, something that I really want to know. Do you think we should be sad when people who die bungee jumping die?

0:18:04 Thomas: It's not good to develop with anxiety. Anxiety.

0:18:04 Tom: Yeah. Oh.

0:18:14 Thomas: Something brave.

0:18:23 Eli: Because I feel like if you bungee jump or parachute or squirrel suit or drive a car and then you die, I feel like you, you did the almost die activity.

0:18:20 Tom: Yeah, or

0:18:21 Thomas: Oh,

0:18:32 Tom: Drive a car?

0:18:33 Thomas: Drive a car.

0:18:39 Tom: Yeah, I mean, it's a very dangerous thing to do, so like if something goes wrong, like, I think it'd be sad that that person's not around, but I think it's like, oh yeah, they went fucking bungee jumping. Like, I did three, I did three jumps and I loved it. I thought it was great. Yeah, I, I mean, if something goes wrong and, like, yeah, it's dangerous. Yeah, it's not, it's, it's like, well, you did a dangerous thing.

0:18:48 Eli: Yeah, okay, thank you. And even if you're at their funeral, you're like allowed to say that. That can be your eulogy. Yes. So It's okay, it's cool, and she shouldn't be mad at me. Thank you. Now

0:19:06 Thomas: Yeah,

0:19:05 Tom: Yeah. I don't even, I don' disagree with that. Like, it's like, all right, yeah, I'll tell you what I'm not doing anymore, fucking bungee jumping. I'm not doing that ever. It was fun, but I would do it again.

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0:19:22 Eli: Well Congratulations to Pheebs. That's awesome, man. I'm so happy that she did the amazing thing.

0:19:28 Thomas: It's it's insane.

0:19:28 Tom: Yeah, I'm, I'm glad for her, yeah.

0:19:30 Eli: That's really cool.

0:19:30 Tom: I'm happy for her. I will say, like, and I don't want to go too far down this road, but like, I do feel cautious

0:19:35 Thomas: Like medicine's a hoax and you shouldn't do. Yeah.

0:19:36 Tom: No, I, no, it's not like medicine's a hoax. I will say this: for many medicines there have not been, I don t think, enough studies done on young brains and developing brains. A lot of times that research is being done clinically through usage rather than actually having been done and the safety and efficacy of those medicines being proven out before those scripts are written. So it's something that I think we should be cautious about. I'm not saying don't do it. I're not giving you guys medical advice, but I am saying that a lot of the stuff that I've looked into, there really are not large cohort studies, there are not long-term studies, there are not safety and efficacy studies.

0:20:15 Eli: The medicines Tom's talking about are vaccines. He's strongly against vaccines.

0:20:18 Thomas: Yeah yeah.

0:20:18 Tom: No, I'm not. I'm talking about psychiatric medicines. They have not oftentimes been studied in young people for a long period of time.

0:20:24 Eli: Never been a double-blind study of the polio vaccine. That's Tom's catchphrase.

0:20:29 Tom: It's not. At all, my catch, I don't think that that's something people shouldn't know. I think that is worth knowing. I'm not shitting on your choice to medicate your kid. I'm actively not doing

0:20:30 Thomas: Yeah I don't know what to do with that. The doctor does tell you that. They tell you, like, hey, well, it's, there's not like a ton of data on kids having Talent this forever or whatever. But what are you supposed to do? With that? I don't know.

0:20:51 Eli: Can I say your doctor sounds like a real quitter, Thomas? I don't fucking know, man this, look, we could try.

0:20:55 Thomas: A quitter? What? No, I can't remember. It's me not remembering.

0:21:00 Tom: That, but Hang on a second, again, I don'T want to go forever down this, but, but I'm glad that your doctor did that. I can say with certainty, many doctors don't. Many doctors do not discuss, they're just like, okay, we can try them on this. And I say that with a certainty of truth, because I've been on appointments with psychiatrists that have been said, well, we Can Try This. And they don't say, but the studies long -term haven't been done, or we don't know what the safety and efficacy profile will be long -terms on a younger cohort. They don't always say that. So I think in the spirit of informed consent, that's worth knowing. And as a Talent, that'S worth looking into. That's all. And I don't think that that's a crazy anti -medical stance.

0:21:44 Thomas: No, I think my question to you is what do you do with that information? Because if the doctor's recommending it, they are keeping that in mind. Like they know that.

0:21:52 Tom: I don'T believe that, though. Here's a true fact. If you take the same kid to three different psychiatrists, you will likely get three different treatment protocol offerings. That's very, very common. Again, my lived experience has shown me that this happens. If you take a kid to Dr. A, Dr. B, and Dr. C, they are not always going to say, here it is, and this is the right medicine. They very often are going to say, well, let's try this, because they have some clinical experience with it.

They have a preference towards something. The science is a lot more wishy -washy than people necessarily may be comfortable with. And so what do you do about that? You make an informed choice, knowing that, like, okay, maybe a second opinion would be worthwhile. Maybe I should look into this independently, independently because there's not universal agreement on exactly which medicines are best for which psychiatric conditions or presentations. And that's just part of informed consent as a parent. And it's true of non -psychiatric stuff too.

When I hurt my back, I went to three different doctors and had three entirely different surgical options depending on who I went to. So it's not just psychiatric. When you have something that's serious, you have a responsibility not to just go to the first guy, I think, and say, well, the first guy said X. I think of Eli sometimes. Eli went to a psychiatrist and said, let's just pull you off all your medicine.

0:23:12 Thomas: Yeah.

0:23:12 Eli: That's right.

0:23:13 Tom: And it had a disastrous effect.

0:23:14 Thomas: Yeah, that doesn't seem good.

0:23:15 Tom: Just listening to every doctor and doing what every doctor happens to say is not necessarily going to yield the right result. So there's a level of informed consent and independent research that I think you do have an obligation to do, regardless of whether it's psychiatric psychiatric or non -psychiatric, then

0:23:32 Thomas: Yeah I just don't what I'm curious like what would I do with that though?

0:23:37 Eli: Do your own research, research Thomas,

0:23:37 Thomas: Like what would I so I I look it up and it says there hasn't been enough enough studies. What do I do then?

0:23:42 Tom: You have to decide as a Talent whether you're comfortable or not comfortable with that. Does that strike you as not important information that these things have not been studied, that they're just being offered without being studied? Yeah.

0:23:47 Eli: Make up your own medicine at home.

0:23:53 Thomas: I mean, I guess maybe it just depends on if you trust your doctor or not. I mean that's really what it comes down to. If we're gonna chance that your doctor is full of shit, then yeah, I don't know what you're supposed to do. But if the doctor knows that and is recommending it, it still comes back to like, I dunno what additional information that provides that I would use. I dunno. Whatever. We can, we can move on, but I'm not, I'm really not sure how, what to do with that. I donno.

0:24:18 Tom: I mean, it might cause you to get a second opinion, for example. So that would be one thing that it might cause somebody to do is to get second opinion. Right.

0:24:25 Thomas: Well, the opinion is just, this could work because this seems like Like, this is what's going on. What's the other opinion?

0:24:29 Tom: A different doctor may have an entirely different medical suggestion. That is not uncommon in any field.

0:24:36 Thomas: But that's not connected to the issue, though. That's not related to the, like, there hasn't been a long enough study, is it?

0:24:42 Tom: Most of these psychiatric medications, There are no long -term studies in children on how safe or efficacious they are. That, to me, strikes me as worth knowing as a parent. If you just trust what every doctor says, then you should trust the guy that Eli went to that said, come off all your medicine. Right? I trusted that guy. It was the wrong decision. He ends up in the psychiatric hospital. He shouldn't have trusted that guys. That guy made a bad call. Sometimes people make bad calls. This is not as, like, litmus test. I dipped the thing in the stick and I'm pregnant. It's not this black and white as people like to think that it is. So like, I think as a patient, again, like I went with my back problem. I had three different surgical protocols to pick from because I went to three different surgeons. It's just not that black and White. So like I don't really fall into the like, just trust the first guy you talk to. I just think that a lot of times that can have as Eli experienced, like that can have catastrophic results. Yeah.

0:25:41 Thomas: Sure. What's that? What's, like... What's with the talent show thingy that we wanted to talk about?

0:25:44 Eli: We got a listener right in here. Now someone is about to have the opposite experience of Thomas. So I'm very excited to hear this.

0:25:51 Thomas: Oh.

0:25:53 Tom: My Kids, 6 and 10, have signed up for their school's talent show. It's a small elementary school, one class per grade, so everyone kind of knows everyone else regardless of grade. My daughter, 6, signed up to sing a song from a movie we heard her sing a thousand times already, and she loves to sing all the time, so this is a good fit for her. My son, 10, signed up to dance to a hip-hop style Pokemon song.

0:26:13 Thomas: Heh.

0:26:13 Tom: I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen him dance. I've asked him if he's practiced his dance yet, and his plan is to go with the flow. Yeah.

0:26:21 Eli: Fuck yes.

0:26:21 Thomas: Gonna wing it? Yes.

0:26:23 Tom: I tried to explain to him that a three minute song is a lot longer than he thinks when he's dancing in front of a crowd, and that going with the floor doesn't really happen. We don't know how to do a thing in the first place. He's diagnosed with autism. He's a really social kid. He has lots of friends of all different neurotypes at a really inclusive school, but I can't help being being worried he's going to be the real-life version of Napoleon Dynamite minus the standing ovation.

0:26:29 Thomas: Yeah.

0:26:47 Thomas: Oh, I was gonna say, that turns out great.

0:26:49 Tom: His moments of embarrassment happen at the most unexpected times, so the odds might be in his favor to come out of this socially unscathed, but I can't help but feel like I should swoop in and save him from some vague threat I can't describe to him without telling him, you don't know how to dance, this is a bad idea. So, do I let him spread his wings in front of the whole school and find out he can't actually fly while on stage, or talk him out of it based on my own insecurities? Thanks, guys. Cassidy.

0:27:00 Thomas: Oh, man.

0:27:13 Thomas: Oh, men. That's a tough one.

0:27:17 Tom: Is it, though?

0:27:17 Eli: Let him fly.

0:27:20 Tom: Talk him out of it.

0:27:20 Eli: Let. Him. Fly.

0:27:22 Thomas: Yeah.

0:27:22 Tom: Oh, God, Oh, God, no.

0:27:22 Eli: No. Let them fly, baby. Oh, let him fly - So here, look, here's the thing. Here's what I'll say, all right? If you had a neurodivergent kid that didn't have have a lot of friends and was dealing with some bullying. And this was their attempt to like break out of that pattern, which I've seen a lot OF kids do right there. Like the talent show is going to be my shot. I'd be like, you need to interfere. You need to keep your kids safe. You needs to keep your kid. Well, it seems like you have a relatively well -balanced kid who is about to make the first true. So here's the first thing, first and foremost, they could get the standing. Oh, because kids are nice and the world is gentler.

0:28:00 Thomas: Yeah.

0:28:00 Eli: So the chance that a kid goes up and dances, and everyone goes crazy for them, pretty high, right? The world's just kind of a kind place at this point in our existence, right? But what you have a golden opportunity to do, podcast listener, is film your child's mortification. They will be 40 years old, in bed, about to go to sleep, and their brain will go, "Hey, do you remember the time you stood up and tried to dance for everybody to a three and and a half minute Pokemon song and ran out of dance moves 18 seconds in? So then you tried to make fart noises with your armpit, but you squeezed too hard and broke your thumb so

0:28:42 Thomas: This is a great, great argument.

0:28:44 Eli: You screamed and shat yourself, and the principal tried to drag you off stage by your legs, and you begged God to kill you while the whole school watched." You can have that on cell phone video, podcast listener, and

0:28:58 Thomas: He makes a good argument.

0:28:59 Eli: And again, look,

0:28:59 Tom: He makes the best argument. Yeah, no, that's it.

0:28:59 Eli: If your kid was going through a hard time or already had a hard time socially, I would say, don't do this, save them, explain to them social dynamics that they don't otherwise understand. But this is a good old fashioned mortification. Everyone's got them and they think about them. And you, every time you want for the rest, he'll be 35 years old and he'll be like, I don't know. We're really thinking of moving over to Jefferson. We think that's a much nicer neighborhood. And you'd be like, "You know what else you thought was a good idea?" And then you whip out your fucking iPad 97 and you're like, "Oh, let's watch the video," and it's just him: "Hard times I'm going through, boo," and the girl he likes stands up on stage and makes a vow before God to never have sex with him. Come on, consider the bit.

0:29:44 Tom: Three

0:29:37 Thomas: His pants fall down. Yeah. Oh, boy. The three minutes thing is killer.

0:29:47 Tom: Minutes is an extraordinary long time. That's such a long time to stand on a stage with no plan, with no plan at all. And also, like, you've not tested your, like, fitness to actually move at speed, dancing for three minutes straight. I'll tell you what, like, three minutes of dancing, like, could be, we could wear you out, like, that could be really tiring. I can see the kid, like, running out of gas. And also he's 10, he's moving into the worst part of his life, middle school. Middle school is a hell. It is every single Single one of Dante's circles combined together into a two year span.

0:30:02 Thomas: Yeah.

0:30:13 Thomas: I was going to say that. Yeah.

0:30:24 Eli: Yes, three, sometimes three

0:30:25 Tom: And the moment he's walking into middle school, he'll be remembered as the fucking dance kid at the talent show. Oh, my God.

0:30:30 Eli: It's the Pokemon kid. The Pokemon kid. Pokeboy, they'll call him. Come on.

0:30:35 Tom: I 100 % would stop my kid from doing this.

0:30:37 Thomas: Yeah. The fact like it's like the girl is six. That's that's one thing. 10 is getting into, can you, I'll say this. Could you try to get them to do it for you? Be like, okay, I think this is longer than you're thinking. Why don't you do a practice one for us? Could you get them? Could you do that?

0:30:42 Tom: Yeah.

0:30:43 Eli: Yeah, no, no one fucking...

0:30:55 Eli: No, because then you miss out on their home, and that's no fun. You're missing out on a major opportunity for your child's psychology.

0:31:01 Tom: This is so good.

0:31:05 Eli: Their whole life will change.

0:31:01 Thomas: Yeah,

0:31:08 Tom: God fucking awful idea.

0:31:08 Thomas: Well, that's true.

0:31:09 Eli: This is a transformative experience.

0:31:11 Thomas: Or it won't affect them at all. That's the other good thing about autism is sometimes they're like, yeah, whatever.

0:31:15 Eli: Oh, yeah, no. That's true, too. If you gotta... And it sounds like they're fairly balanced once because they have friends and stuff. If you have a non-sensitivism kid, they go up and do something that we would think about for the rest of their life, and they're just like, no, no, I wanted to do the Pokemon dance, so I did the Pokemon dancing. Fucking nailed it. Got it in one.

0:31:27 Tom: That's true. Yeah, that's very true. It's like, I love the immunity to embarrassment that some people just get to walk around in their life with, like, for whatever reason. It's fucking great. Well, they're just like, yeah, I did that thing and it's... Like, yeah, fucking, I would never stop crying about that. Like, oh, it's great. I had a good time. It was awesome.

0:31:37 Thomas: Yeah.

0:31:49 Eli: Yeah, no, my son has that, which is really fucking cool, because he's not super social and he doesn't like socialize with other kids super well, and so a lot of people will see that and they'll be like, oh, oh, does he ever get lonely? And I'm like, I don't even think those other kids are real. Like, I think he thinks, he's like, you guys keep bringing these cardboard cutouts into my classroom and they keep touching my blocks and that fucking sucks for them. Sometimes I have to slap them to keep them away from my blocks. And then these teachers yell at me for it, but I don't understand. Haven't they understood I'm the only real person?

0:32:06 Tom: Yeah.

0:32:21 Eli: They gotta read this fucking, this existentialist treatise I've written in crayon here on my paper. Neighbor. Yeah. Listener fucking go for it and really film it. Really. Don't, don't chicken out fucking three camera crew, like different angles, close up wide shot, different angle.

0:32:21 Tom: Yeah, that's fucking great.

0:32:41 Eli: You look, they're not going to be young forever and they're Not going to make these. They're going to be like 10 is the, I mean, you are just on the cusp. They're going to stop doing anything that could possibly be considered a risk. Any second you try and get a 15-year-old to do something that might possibly in any universe embarrass them, no, I can't possibly walk out the door, because what if I walk out of the door and it doesn't close all the way when I get up. They're boring until they're 50, until after their second marriage. They're just, everyone spends the rest of their lives being like, no, I wouldn't want to make a fuss. This is the last opportunity you're gonna have, unless you, you have a psycho like me who will just do this shit constantly, in which case, God bless you. But if you, if you have an normal child who lives their life not making big choices like this on a constant basis, like yours truly, this is your shot to capture family history.

0:32:42 Tom: Oh, it's God.

0:33:40 Thomas: Seems

0:33:40 Eli: This is what they're gonna open every therapy session with for the rest of their, I had the dream about the Pokemon mon dance again. Don't you want to help them? You know what would help their therapist? That the future sessions they'll have a lot of watching the video, because if your therapist can open a session by going, fuck, man, yeah, wow, yeah.

0:33:56 Thomas: Like a circular argument, and your dad just filmed that, huh? I think I know why you're in therapy. Hey.

0:34:05 Eli: I mean, the Smiths didn't show up because they pretended not to get an email, but It's almost as bad, this

0:34:12 Tom: I would 100 not let my kids do this. I would not.

0:34:17 Thomas: I don't know about not letting, though.

0:34:17 Tom: But for all the, literally all the reasons, because like, I don't want people, like, I also don't want my kids to take away the life lesson that, like, you can show up, do a bad job, wing something. You don't have to prepare for things. Don't take things seriously. This kid's 10. He's in fifth grade. It's time to start figuring that out.

0:34:26 Thomas: Hmm, oh, that's Well, wait, Tom, but what better way to learn that lesson than to try doing that and to fail

0:34:37 Eli: Is the best way to learn that lesson, Tom. You're so, so close to victory.

0:34:38 Tom: Well, sure. Look, I know you and I are right there, because I agree with everything you said, except for that's why I'd stop him. I would be like, "No, man, we're not doing that. Show some respect for the organization, or for the other people that are there that did try you know, like, I think by just showing up and being like, yeah, I'm just gonna fucking wing it, like, no, bro, that's not how we do, like, we either do it right or we don't do it at all. I would not let him do it. I'd be like, no, you're not signing up for the fucking talent thing. That's crazy, bro. What would you do, Thomas?

0:34:50 Thomas: For the art form? Yeah. God,

0:34:52 Eli: Let Let it begin.

0:35:11 Thomas: I don't, I, I don't know. I think I would really try to get them to do a practice in front of me first. Cause I think if the kid tries to do three minutes, they'll understand. Or could you just make a cut of it? That's like 30 seconds. You know what I mean? Like, just like sub that in. So it doesn't go on for so long.

0:35:29 Tom: Oh, I know what, I'll just take a page out of my dad's book, I'll make him write an essay. Yeah, well, for that, for sure, but like, I'll take a look at it and I'll be like, "Oh, see how you don't have one?" So obviously you can't be in the show because this

0:35:34 Thomas: Don't go, yeah, oh God, oh no, that's I suppose that's another way to do it.

0:35:46 Tom: Isn't what talent is. You don't have a Talent That's not a thing. You don't want to have one because

0:35:53 Eli: But also, listen, here's another thing, podcast listener. What if your kid fucking rocks it? Right? Because here's the, well, not just Napoleon Dynamite, because Napoleon Dynamite is the pity, the neurodivergent kid thing, which I have.

0:35:57 Thomas: Yeah, it's true, you could actually, Napoleon Dynamite No, his dance rules, dude. I I love that the dance is so great. That's the whole point of the movie, is that he actually does amazing.

0:36:07 Tom: Dance is so good.

0:36:10 Eli: Is that the point of the movie? I thought the point of the movie was that everyone's sort of ironically liking his dance.

0:36:16 Thomas: Dance, no.

0:36:17 Tom: No, I think they genuinely appreciate it. Yeah.

0:36:17 Thomas: It's actually, I think it's supposed to be pretty good. Yeah, I'm pretty sure sure.

0:36:20 Eli: Good. No, I love that. Hey, yes. I love that. I want that to be the case. I've always had a problem with the Napoleon Dynamite movie. I don't know. I especially as a Talent of an autistic kid, I see a lot of pet autistics in media and fiction. Right. When I like reflect on those and then I think about how I want people to think about and treat my son is like because I see it sometimes where people are like, oh, he's so cute. And I'm like, you don't mean that. Like people, I know, I see you, I see you and your fucking Love on the Spectrum-watching ass. I know what you mean. This is the fight, this is a fight I'll fight. People fucking love that show so much, and it's crazy, because you know who fucking loves that show and is moved by that show and, like, deeply comforted by that show? My wife. My wife fucking loves that show and thinks it, like, is genuinely one of the most, like, empowering portrayals. And I feel like fucking Mugatu, because she, like, she's fucking

0:36:33 Thomas: Damn. Cause I love that movie, but you're probably right. Yeah.

0:36:46 Thomas: Oh, ouch. Oh, don't start this again. Let's have every Tom argument in one episode.

0:36:47 Tom: Oh, man. I like that show. God damn it. It's a good show.

0:37:22 Thomas: Uh, yeah.

0:37:22 Eli: Smart, she, see, and so she'll be like, look at this fucking thing, it's so great, and, like, this is people seeing our son in a way he needs to be seen. And I'm like, I know, it's a z, you, it's exactly, it's a fucking zoo, you fucking, it's fucking zoo. Look

0:37:31 Thomas: And a zoo. I don't like it. I Don't like It. It's a people's zoo. It's a people zoo.

0:37:34 Tom: I don't feel like it's that at all. They, I, I didn't feel like that at all.

0:37:44 Ad: [Ad break 3 — ad music]

0:37:46 Tom: There's a really good episode, I think, of The Daily, like a long-form interview about the making of that, and, like, interviews with the producer of it, and that guy's heart is in the right place. It's very difficult to come away from that and think that this is exploitative. It's really hard. Like, you would have to believe a lot of, like, really weird underground shit about a man and how he spent literally his entire life We watch people do that all the time.

0:38:13 Thomas: Yeah It's, but isn't it just by nature exploit, like, not exploitive, but like the idea that we're watching people who have difficulty with a thing doing that thing, not in that way, do we? Maybe I'm wrong.

0:38:29 Tom: I don't know. I don't think that, like, understanding somebody else's experience in a way that, like, really comes at it with a genuinely empathetic feel and not a fun house laugh at feel, I don't think that is, and these people are incredibly, incredibly cared for in the filming process. And they have an enormous amount of power. Like I said, like if you listen to the way that this was filmed and the way that, like, the lengths that they go to, to make sure that the people that are in it are being treated fairly and being cared for and the filming both before and after. And then you watch it. And like, to me, it doesn't feel exploitive at all. And I was really worried that it would, I was like, and it just feels like, I don't know. It feels like understanding someone's experience, to me, I, I like, I'm not trying to sell

0:38:41 Thomas: Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, that's true.

0:39:19 Eli: No, no, you're fucking, you and Anna Bosnick are on the fucking Love on the Spectrum train, man.

0:39:19 Thomas: Yeah.

0:39:19 Tom: It to anybody, but it's, that's what it felt like to me.

0:39:25 Tom: I've never watched a season and not been moved to tears.

0:39:28 Eli: Yeah, she fucking loves that shit. Yeah.

0:39:28 Tom: I have never watched the season of it and not being moved to tears. Yeah. Like I'm just like, Oh my God. Like, and, and there's actually, I watched that too. And I'm like, man, more people should just behave like this in relationships. Like they've figured some shit out actually.

0:39:40 Eli: Can I say something from the other direction, though? It could also just be the fact that Like, okay, here's the thing. If I made that show, it would be from a place of evil and victimization. I can't fathom you

0:39:42 Tom: Yeah, yeah, of course.

0:39:47 Thomas: What?

0:39:59 Tom: There you go. That's the problem, Eli.

0:40:00 Thomas: Yeah, we found it.

0:40:00 Eli: I know what I'm saying. Like if I, I were doing it, one, I would lie and be like, this is about their lived experience, and I would, inside my head, I'd be like, look at this fucking zoo I built. So many people are coming to my zoo. So it might also be the fact that I am deeply evil and there are other people in the world who are not. Guys, I wish we'd stop concluding at the end of episodes, it's really bums me.

0:40:22 Thomas: It could be, yeah. I think autistic people, it's a disadvantage, because all other reality TV, the people can be full of fucking shit and lying and making stuff up, but these folks, are they're earnest, they can't do that. So it's like it almost feels unfair. Like it's like we're getting the one kind of people where you're actually seeing them and you're actually seeing their lives. It just feels like a disadvantage, you know? That doesn't happen to anyone else who we subject to reality TV.

0:40:49 Tom: Yeah Yeah, right. Yeah. Like I can't curate my own responses for the camera right in the same in the same way. Yeah, all right. So what is what does Cassidy do with her 10-year-old? I say keep them out of the talent show.

0:40:55 Thomas: Yeah

0:40:55 Eli: Out Yes, Cassidy, yes. Begin the mortification cast. Yes.

0:41:03 Thomas: We are three bears in it. We're exactly three bears in it, I think.

0:41:05 Tom: Your kid doesn't have any Talent Yeah yeah no don't do it.

0:41:08 Eli: Cassidy

0:41:07 Thomas: Because Tom's a no. Eli's a yes and film it, and I'm gonna get him to do a practice to recognize that it's not a good idea. That's perfect. Three

0:41:14 Eli: Cassidy, send us the video, we'll all watch it on the live stream. Oh

0:41:19 Tom: I hope if he does it, I hope he fucking rules.

0:41:21 Thomas: Bears. Yeah, me too. I'm rooting for

0:41:21 Tom: I hope that, like, I hope he fuckin' rules. Those chances are zero, by the way. He, like... She says in the email, like he doesn't dance at all. Like, it's not like he dances around the house.

0:41:22 Eli: I hope he rules too. That's a great, that's it. I mean, look, the evil person that I am wants it to go bad. No, it's not zero. It's a kinder world, Tom.

0:41:32 Thomas: Him. Yeah, that could be.

0:41:32 Eli: I know, but sometimes people do a fucking shitty... Can I tell you? Okay, I remember once when I was in a talent show as a really little kid, there was a girl who did three cartwheels, and every time she did a cartwheel, she farted.

0:41:40 Thomas: Tough.

0:41:53 Thomas: Wow, this is a... this is an episode for Eli. No.

0:41:54 Tom: Ha ha ha ha!

0:41:54 Eli: And we all laughed so hard. No, it was not, but I promise you, she thinks about it every day for the rest of her life. Far-

0:41:57 Thomas: That's the greatest thing, think, I've ever heard. Now, was that intentional as part of the act? Because then it's fantastic. Fart wheels, they're fart- wheels. You have to... what... has to have been intentional. That's the greatest performer of a generation.

0:42:07 Tom: Fartwheels! Oh my god. If that was not her nickname, if her nickname wasn't Fartwheels all the way through high school, there's no reason to wake up in the morning. That's it. Like, that's it, 100%.

0:42:13 Eli: Wheels. Oh.

0:42:22 Thomas: Man, even Napoleon Dynamite was practicing that dance the whole movie, you know?

0:42:26 Eli: He was. It's true.

0:42:26 Tom: The whole time? The whole time?

0:42:28 Clip: Dear Old Dads

0:42:36 Eli: All right, gentlemen, before we go: what kind of pants does a ghost hunter wear? Just a paranormal

0:42:43 Thomas: Yeah. That's awesome, I like that one. So yeah, that is a unique one. Oh, sorry, no, no feedback allowed. Eli, you should have to mute your headphones after every, yeah.

0:42:44 Tom: Oh my God. Ha ha ha ha!

0:42:50 Eli: Jeans. Reverent silence only.

0:43:41 Eli: Oh, heroin, consider.

0:43:45 Thomas: No, I can't remember. It's me not remembering.

0:43:49 Eli: The bit, you, it's exactly it's a fucking zoo, you fucking kid, it's fucking zoo, you

0:43:58 Thomas: Wow. This is an episode for Eli.