DOD281: When Your Couple Friends Divorce

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad, that's my thing I know now what I can offer you that no one else can Complete and under-dependent I'm a man, I'm sensitive I need to feel loved, I need part of being a father that I enjoy

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's getting some paperwork served. I'm Tom Curry, joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:38 Eli: Did you serve your divorce papers like you're suing bricks and figs?

0:00:45 Tom: Depending on where you live, divorce papers sometimes do have to be served by a process server. That's not the case here in Illinois. Well, you don't serve them. You physically don't serve them? Oh, you would hide from the process server?

0:00:45 Thomas: Hello. Yeah.

0:00:51 Eli: Nope. I would stay married. There's nobody I would... I would stay married to an active wood chipper.

0:00:53 Thomas: I would stay married. Yeah, you hire a process server.

0:01:01 Tom: Oh fuck yeah, dude. If Haley tries to to divorce me I'm just gonna be like give that a whirl you'll never find me ha ha let me fucking hide you

0:01:03 Eli: I'd run in a circle. Get on your little lad bike. I've traded for this for years. Bring, bring. That flip flip flip is the playing cards in his books.

0:01:14 Tom: Can't oh absolutely

0:01:14 Thomas: Tom definitely rides the one where the front wheel is all big and the back wheel is small, right?

0:01:25 Eli: Ooh, that's a different but equally good bit.

0:01:25 Tom: What is that that's called some I forgot what that's called those things are crazy like

0:01:29 Thomas: Penny something? Is it a?

0:01:31 Eli: Penny Farthing.

0:01:32 Thomas: Yeah, that's definitely what Tom rides.

0:01:31 Tom: A penny farthing yes yes a velocipede that's what they were also called at the time they were called velocipedes yeah uh -huh yeah

0:01:38 Thomas: What? Really? Oh, I've never heard of that. That? Velocipede. Now I have to look at it. You're right. Hey, Tom, you're right, that thing you said was correct, I just wanted, you don't know it, it was right.

0:01:45 Tom: Oh thank you for yeah the

0:01:54 Eli: Those are the things that chase the people around in fucking Jurassic Park right the philosophies

0:01:58 Tom: Velocipedes oh yeah they're terrible yeah they got a lot of legs on those things yeah like 30 sets of legs and

0:02:02 Eli: I saw a tweet the other day that I greatly enjoyed which someone wrote based on the size of the gates I think they were always planning for the dinosaurs to escape Jurassic Park and that makes me laugh it makes me laugh a lot I've thought about that twice a day since I read that tweet and really really enjoyed it gentlemen do you know the only thing worse than the park planning of Jurassic Park. It's divorce, the subject of this week's episode, but a close second is the auto ads ruining your podcast experience, but you can make all that go away over at patreon .com forward slash dear old dads, where you'll receive a commercial free version of every single show, a little parenting story at the end and monthly bonus episodes. We got a brand spanking new AMA. What is that? That thing's like a couple of weeks old at this point. So we're talking about modern politics.

0:02:51 Eli: We're up to date on the technology when we're answering questions on that one you can get in on the goodness over at patreon .com forward slash dear old dads like divorce into the psyche of most men irrevocably rip into it yeah

0:03:03 Tom: Velocipedes all

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0:03:12 Tom: Right so thomas you had this topic for this week what's happening

0:03:14 Thomas: Boy. So, oh, no, I have a

0:03:15 Eli: You have a friend who's bad at love tell us about

0:03:18 Thomas: Friend who's bad, first off, I don't have a a friend. Secondly, bad at life. So I've got, roughly speaking, kind of an old friend, approximately, you could say. For one, I don't have, you know, I just don't have time to talk to anybody. But this is somebody who, even if I had time to talk to, I do not think I can talk to anymore. Have you ever had a couple's friend or whatever, like a friend, couple's, what am I trying to say? Couple's friends? Couple's friend?

0:03:18 Tom: Bud

0:03:42 Thomas: Your couple friends. Yeah. Like, have you you ever had that where okay so my yeah that's what

0:03:42 Tom: Couple friends couple friends couple two tree friends you know hey

0:03:50 Thomas: Eli has over there and he's walking here and that kind of thing yeah oh wait how's the fire I can't ask that but is the fire resolved god I forgot okay

0:03:50 Eli: Jersey yeah the fire was yeah no a mere nine days later my town put out the fire and then elected a boy mayor we elected a 24 year old mayor who according to the rumors on facebook had his car repossessed the day he was elected so it's going great here in central new jersey

0:04:03 Thomas: Like a child like a wow yeah

0:04:16 Tom: What the first order of business is all cars are free

0:04:20 Eli: Give me back my car no

0:04:22 Thomas: Yeah. So, okay. My friend, a long, long time back, we did some theater together in college and then he was out of college. He was like married, you know, well, I guess it wasn't that young cause he's older than me, but like kind of young. And then eventually like a few years later, he divorced and married a much younger girl. And I can't for the, oh man, I, I, this is so embarrassing. I don't have any idea.

0:04:45 Tom: Like how much younger you gotta help you gotta paint I need you to paint a picture here alright paint a rough

0:04:52 Thomas: She was way younger. So I would say when it happened, he was probably 35 and she was probably 23 or four or five, something. Yeah, it was a little weird. Now, she's an old soul. Sorry.

0:05:03 Eli: No that's worse oh no

0:05:11 Tom: Estimate no no no nope Nope.

0:05:14 Thomas: It was a little, it was a little weird. I might be off on the years. Nah, man, I think that's pretty close. But anyway, it was a little weird at first, but she she's great.

0:05:12 Eli: Sure wasn't unless you're off Off by 10, King.

0:05:25 Thomas: Yeah, she's great. And we like her. And eventually everybody just kind of moves on and was like, yeah, that's whatever. That's that couple. And it's been over 10 years since then. It eventually you just don't think about it anymore. But she started talking to us the other day about, you know, some problems. And I don't want to get too much into it, but it got to the point where eventually it was like, she's got to divorce this guy. I don't even think I can ever talk to him again. Do you ever hear, question is for the crowd, do you ever hear too much about someone else's relationship or your friend's relationship and you lose all respect for, let's be real, probably the guy, but not always. Sometimes you can lose respect for the girl as well.

0:06:04 Tom: What if you lose respect for both of them? What if like genuinely because that's the situation I've had where the more I learned about like a couple like I actually was friends with her for years. And then like as time went on, I'm like, well, he's a real problem. But like, actually, you're not a real charmer either.

0:06:06 Thomas: Usually. Yeah.

0:06:22 Tom: You know, maybe the both of you guys have to go. It turns out like there's a probably a lot of troubles over here. So, yeah. Hello.

0:06:22 Thomas: Yeah, I've definitely had the one where I start talking to someone and the way they present it, it's like, oh man, yeah, he's the worst. And then like, as time goes on, it's like, maybe both. Yeah. I don't know. You know, like you hear more and it's like, uh, people really tell their own stories wrong sometimes, but this was like, oh man. This is such a mind blowing experience. Cause for one, just the feeling of like, I just don't, I, this was someone I'd go back quite a ways with, but we want her in the divorce, You know, like in terms of who gets custody of us, friends wise, because that, you know, that happens. Right. Like you have to have to divvy up friends. I'm like, we're going with her. I don't want to. That's done and done. Like, I'm not even for one. He hasn't. We haven't talked in a while, but like his whole thing is no one will talk to him, but he also doesn't talk to anyone else. Like, I have no friends because I don't talk to anyone, but I don't complain like, why doesn't that person talk to me? You know, I' m just like, yeah, I know I have friends, whatever, I don'' t have time. But it' s a weird entitlement or something that like other people should be doing all the work. And the other thing I wanted to talk about, as somebody, and Eli, this is more toward you because Tom is a saint, a gentleman, and a scholar, and no one' s ever said a bad word about Tom. But if you' re somebody who maybe has had to grow out of some things, and I know, Eli, you've talked about, you have several exes that are allowed to murder you in like 17 states or something. Everything she was saying, I could recognize like, you know, 20, 25 % of myself in certain ways. And maybe I'm being, I entirely could just be like being fearful or overly like worried, but it's a lot of things that she described as like, oh, that's something I feel like I would have done when I was like 20 or something. Now this guy is in his forties now, no excuse. But like, do you ever have somebody talking and especially as a man and the girls talking about, you know, pretty typical stuff that men do that's not great oftentimes, like not listening and kind of not.

0:08:23 Eli: I need you to be more specific depending on how hard I yes and this, right? Because if you're like, if she's like, he keeps raping me, I need to say no, but if it's like, he doesn't pick up his socks because he's fucking busy, I'm ready to take his side. I need some specifics here, T -Dog.

0:08:30 Thomas: No, no. No. Not that. You're ready to take his side. Man, I'm trying again. I did get permission to mention this, but I'm still a little like hesitant to say specifics, but I might be real for a second. Apologies for the jokey thing that you were doing. For example, for me, speaking as myself, he's hyper, hyper, super critical. Honestly, it's also a thing my dad did. It is a bit of a narcissist behavior. I'm not calling this person a narcissist, but it's a narcissistic behavior of your partner becomes your only person you talk to. And this happened with my dad. Everything in the conversation is a way to like isolate in a way. Cause it's like talking about how everyone else sucks. They're the worst. This is what they do being hypercritical, but then, you know, you're fine and everything. And it's a way of like, kind of, you Know what I mean? It's like that isolating behavior of like trying to get like an us against the world feeling, you Now that kind of thing sort of, yeah, but just, and she was saying, and She was saying that she,

0:09:34 Eli: Yeah yeah I hate your friends I hate your family

0:09:39 Tom: Barely know my friends and family that's kind of rude Eli

0:09:43 Eli: I like most of your friends I like cecil

0:09:44 Thomas: She realized the other day that she felt really stupid as a person because she made a comment like, oh, I'm so stupid. And someone asked her like, do you feel stupid? And she realized like, yeah, I do feel stupid. And she thought about it and reflected is because of how this guy talks about everybody and then would say that like, Oh no, but you're different. But she's like, everything he was describing is probably just normal stuff that she also does. You know what I mean? Like, so it got to the point where I was like, man, I can remember my dad doing a lot of of that and I can remember being a little bit like that kind of person when I was in like 20 or whatever in college and you know until I figured out not to be an asshole and it's just stuff like that where you're like god there but for the grace of something go I you know do you ever worry like I just see like flashes of oh I could have been that asshole you know yeah okay it's a little different

0:10:31 Eli: Yeah no I still am that is the problem I haven't grown beyond that thomas is this problem there wait you're not supposed to talk about how shitty everyone in your life is to your wife because then what do you do you kill them is that what you do because that's I have two choices thomas I either buy a gun and go on a national road trip shooting the people in my life or I'm like Like, you know what fucking happened today? I had two choices.

0:10:58 Tom: I think like just grousing is a little bit different you know what I mean like I do I do think that like grousing isn't necessarily the same thing that you're talking about like I and I get that can I ask like I'm curious did she feel stupid like he's made me feel stupid or does she feel stupid like I can't believe I didn't see this this early or stupid. Yeah.

0:11:05 Thomas: No no not at all yes oh no sorry yeah he's made her feel stupid by by his constant critical behaviors. And she said that he would not do it toward her. Like he's not he's Not like outwardly a monster. And that's another thing that was almost a horror film about it to me is he's NOT outwardly A monster, you wouldn't really notice unless you spent a lot of time with him that and and it's all like, again, I have some sympathy because it's All from his parent, I'm trying to be just as non specific as I can. But he has a parent who's hypercritical and has probably ruined his fucking mental stuff. You know, like I've seen it and it's like it just makes me really sad in a lot of ways. And I also had this feeling after she talked about it at length of like, are some people just not can you just not have a relationship? Like, can you Just not get married? Because it just feels like there's sometimes stuff where it's so core and fundamental that you're like, shit, how is this person ever going to treat someone? Well, you know, Like it just at this point, I just got this really sad feeling of like Like, and what is someone supposed to do? Especially with your guys' policy of no conversations after a breakup or whatever. Like someone needs to have an intervention as to what happened here, but no one will. And then this person will continue and try to function and have a relationship. And then in 10 years, it'll be another of this or something. You know what I mean?

0:12:30 Eli: Mm -hmm.

0:12:31 Tom: Yeah, you've got a lot of questions in there. I think like I've I've thought a lot about a lot of this stuff. And I think to your question, like, are there some people that just are going to always like some people just should never be in relationships? Yes. Hard yes to that. Like there are people that are going to be bad at it all the time forever and will never get better at it because there's an enormous number of people who refuse to introspect. They just don't do it. And when they do introspect, They don't do it honestly, and they don't ever bother to bring in an honest third party that can help them see what they don't see. And I think because most people don't do that work, most people will repeat patterns. And they're just going to be like, well, this is how I behave in relationships, and you can take it or leave it. This is who I am.

0:13:16 Tom: You know, like me or hate me, you know, that kind of bullshit, right? Right. Like I think introspective people who are interested in actively doing the work of being a better version of themselves all the time will become different people in different relationships as they move through their lives, as they mature, as relationships mature, as they moved from bad relationships to good ones or good ones to bad ones around that, like there actually won't be a this is who I am in a relationship. Relationship because that is, in and of itself, a problem because that says that rather than adapting to the relationship and the person that you're with and the needs and the way that people want to be loved and the ways that you want to express love with them, rather than adapting to that stuff, you're just this sort of fixed value. You're just like, well, I'm a fixed value, here I am, and those people always suck.

0:14:07 Tom: Those people just straight up, they just always suck fuck and they should not be in relationships because they're unlikely to like find the right lego piece man like the idea of like that guy accidentally finding the perfect lego piece is like essentially zero yeah

0:14:20 Thomas: Well, and if they do, that means it's someone who is not going to be healthy. It's someone who will be like codependent and can't you know what I mean like it won't be a good there's no such thing as like the right person for that kind of behavior it's just like a person who will put up with it or like won't defend themselves or what it's a weird combination of being hypercritical and I think he is introspective in a way like maybe intensely introspectative but in the wrong ways and just his reality machine is a little broken to your point it's like not having someone do that honestly or not being able to accept it you wouldn't say he's like not introspective but it like doesn't

0:14:56 Tom: Right yeah like there's a bunch of people I know that will like they can like actually identify I've met people like this they're not people in my circle anymore because I wouldn't keep them but like they're the kind of people that would identify within themselves like oh you know like this is the kind OF guy I am I like that and you're like well that's a problem there's well that that's who I am and you just like oh okay well you're you're introspective enough to know you're a problem

0:15:18 Thomas: Work

0:15:19 Eli: Yeah, the way Tom feels about his dad. I'm just not the kind of boyfriend who goes to read your book.

0:15:20 Tom: But not change it I also think that like one thing that that is interesting there too that I've also very much noticed is like most manipulations and abuses and things along those lines they are very subtle and they're often unintentional. So I think that there's this idea, and it's wrongheaded, that if somebody didn't mean it, it wasn't a problem. Or that everybody who does engage in a behavior is actively, explicitly aware of their manipulative behaviors. And both things are untrue more often than they're true. I'm not saying it's never true one direction. I'm saying it is never true the other direction. Of course, there are instances where it is. But I think a lot of behaviors are learned behaviors and people engage in them just thoughtlessly and they engage in them reactively and they engage in them with repetition so that they become sort of ingrained. And then you end up with this dynamic that is manipulative or is abusive. It just happens slowly over time. And I asked you that question about like, like, does she feel stupid? Because like, I'll raise my hand and it's not her answer. But like, when I look back at like my failed marriage, I was like, I feel intensely stupid that I stayed in that relationship. Like I look back at it and I'm like, I don't even know the person that I was when I was in that relationship.

0:16:13 Thomas: Sorry Eli are we supposed to be like oh no you you weren't

0:16:51 Tom: No, no, no. I know it was dumb as shit. Right. That's why I'm like, I've spent a lot of time breaking that down and trying to figure out like, okay, like obviously all of that was unacceptable. But how did I not know it at the time? That's the question that matters is why didn't I know it at the time, and then I have to move away from like, why did I not know it at the time to, okay, how do I always know it in the future, and identify things, you know, moving forward. And that takes, it kind of takes a lot of work. And you probably have to partner with somebody to do that work, you Know, effectively, I think like when people in your friend group get divorced it should for people act as a sort of like wake -up call where people should be like oh shit that happens within my circle that should be an opportunity for me to introspect because like maybe there's some things about me that rhyme with that

0:16:51 Eli: Look,

0:16:54 Thomas: Dumb yeah yeah yeah

0:17:43 Tom: Guy because maybe that's why we're friends and maybe these are things I should be worried about

0:17:47 Thomas: Well to your point that's what's so scary so I think that's an excellent point I don't think this guy can help it I think there's ways that and then you get into the fucking like all right Daniel Dennett free will whatever but like like there's ways that you're like someone should know better and he definitely should. But there's also stuff that like I got kind of sad realizing that like, man, some of this stuff is just core fundamental stuff that I don't think he'll ever change. And on one hand, I was like, wow, I'm glad that for whatever reason at a certain age, I was desperate to change everything about myself, must get out of this as hard as I can. And then I had a feeling of, to your point, I don'T think he's meaning to be and he'S He's not meaning to be like some abuser or whatever, the kind of thing that people, I think, often assume everything's intentional and someone's knowingly abusing someone. And like you said, maybe sometimes it's true. It probably is. But sometimes these folks just can't do otherwise, you know. And it worried me because, yeah, I definitely see like bits of myself in being too, because you guys know my obviously inability to like, like when something doesn't make sense, my inability to be chill about it. And I was just like, fuck, what if I'm, you know, making Lydia feel dumb when I do that? And like, I'm sure I probably am sometimes. And just this feeling of like, if it's something that's such a fast twitch muscle that I've always been worried about, I've talked about for a long time on the show. My fast twitch reaction is usually not great. It's usually like, can you fucking believe this? Not terribly patient of something that I think is dumb. And then I was like, well, what if that's just like too harmful? What if it's like no matter how much I try to make up for it or try to learn better, what if it is just like fundamentally always going to suck and be hurtful? You know, like what the fuck do people do? I just like got all depressed. I was Like, what is people supposed to do if they don't have the ability to change?

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0:19:49 Eli: I can certainly speak to my own experience because I've talked about the fact that I was. Now, I need to be clear because I think a lot of the time people project when I try to own past behavior. I was never, in my opinion, and I think in my ex's opinion too, physically, emotionally, anything that would be considered abusive, but I just wasn't a very good boyfriend and I really didn't deal well with monogamy in a variety of ways. I was told a lot during breakups that I was not capable of change and that I would be that way forever. And look, a lot of that is just someone who is hurting, saying the thing they can think of as most hurtful. What I can speak of for me is when Anna and I got together, it was very different. And I think one of the things that's important to recognize is that it is different with the right person. At least it was for me. The difference between the right relationship for me and my past relationships were vastly different emotional experiences, right? Like, I do not feel about Anna the way I felt about any of my high school girlfriends. It's not just that relationship plus one. And so I think the fact that it was a much deeper connection, that it wasn't a relationship, a much realer connection, allowed me to grow and change. The other thing was something that Anna did, because I messed up relatively early in me and Anna's dating. And we don't need to get into the details, but I just fucking fucked up. And Anna was like, all right, well, we need a break while you fucking figure out that shit, my man. And so I was like all right. Like what do I do because this is so good I don't want this to end because of my mess up. And so that motivated me to make the change. Whereas I will say I had certainly been broken up with before when I had messed up or when I had done bad things or when I had behaved badly but it was not so first of all almost always what happened is someone broke up with me and then said all the meanest shit they could think of which and again this is going to sound like a weird side note when I can tell someone is doing mean on purpose obviously I don't do it out loud but my brain goes oh I'm meaner than you are we we just thinking of mean things to say to each

0:22:11 Eli: Other now I will I will say I have 99 .99 of the time in those situations resisted just falling into that but I fall out of the conversation right because

0:22:21 Thomas: Then you have to do battle with yourself and

0:22:21 Eli: I can tell right I have to do battle with myself but also I can just tell that someone's trying to sing a song at pavarotti right and I'm like oh okay cool you've got to do what you got to follow your heart right do whatever you gotta do

0:22:37 Thomas: Job on that f that you're able to get up to I'll be over here singing a high

0:22:41 Eli: Right yeah no that's fucking cool. I'll be over here eating the whole plate of spaghetti. So there was that, but it was also, I had never been in the position before where someone was like, Hey, I still love you. We still have this very intense relationship. I very much want this to work, but I can't because of your behaviors.

0:22:58 Eli: And so that was like oh, this is not beyond saving, right? And so I was able to make the changes that I was to make. I also got very lucky in terms of a great therapist and a a great medication schedule at the same time so like I fucked up and then I started talking to a therapist who absolutely called me on my shit it was not just a like you've never done anything wrong therapist and then I was on good meds which made a lot of the like impulse control dealing with depression stuff a lot easier on my brain to deal with and so all things considered I got very lucky with that but like that was sort of the path for change for me and I think that's And I'm not projecting this onto Thomas's friend or to anybody. I think that's a big moment for someone who fucks up is like, do you have someone who challenges you to change or do they wag their finger in your face and then expect you to sort of bootstrap yourself into a different kind of personhood? Because something that I see in my friends, right, when they date pieces of shit, right? And I certainly label my past self as a piece of shit in a lot of my relationships is they never really call out their partner. Partner they just like bitch about them to friends or they

0:22:56 Thomas: C hmm right hmm yeah

0:24:18 Eli: Fucking or they they do this same like breakup makeup cycle which is something that me and my exes would do all the time right is that we would just stay fucking toxic and then like take turns being like well you choose your friends over me should we fight about that this weekend yeah that seems like a good fight and then you want to maybe you could start texting somebody that isn't me oh yeah no that sounds great we'll do that next weekend and then oh well no you know what we're visiting my parents so So let's not fight then let's fight about my parents. Right. So it just sort of became that. And so I think a big part of it too, is not just like whether or not one person is capable of change, but like who they are with and what the standard that person sets for them. And look, I want to say right here at the outset that like, I got the happy ending and I like to think that I am a good partner now. Massages are great. Right. But I could also just be self -justifying. Right. Because, you know, look, a lot of my exes said a lot of really, really mean stuff that they wanted to ring in my ears forever. And I think about that sometimes. I still think about a lot of the things that they said, especially my last ex before meeting Anna, because we were in a really long term relationship. We thought we were going to be together forever. We got really, really close to getting married. And then during the breakup, you You know, she said what she felt she needed to say to get through to someone who she was really, really upset at. But because she knew me so well and because we were so close, that still rings in my ears a bit. And certainly during darker times, I go like, oh, I wonder if that's right. And that's why I feel so sad so much of the time. Right.

0:25:59 Eli: And so that's another thing to consider as well.

0:25:59 Tom: In your circumstance, like what you're describing is and I know you offer details, but and I think this is actually less often the case where there's like, OK, there is a lapse or an error in judgment. And then now we have to try to get past whatever whatever that lapse in judgment or that error in judgment was. And I think very often one of the real problems that shows up in long -term relationships is as soon as everybody stops dating and gets very comfortable, that what comes out is this toxic lack of appreciation and respect. And that is not a, how do we get over this thing that you did or this behavior that occurred on Tuesday at three o 'clock on May the 4th? It's like, okay, fundamentally, you don't actually she respect and appreciate me or this relationship? And that's evidenced by your desire to control me, for example, right? Or your desire To always be right in every circumstance, rather than like, you know, Haley has a saying, and I actually didn't like it at first, but I've come to really appreciate it. And when we first started dating,

0:27:04 Thomas: It's you're wrong all the time. And I'm. Yeah.

0:27:06 Eli: Fuck you, Tom, you fat piece of shit.

0:27:09 Tom: Because she'll do it. She'll do it too. And it's in the saying is like, do you want to be right? Or do you Want to be happy? When you're sort of like, yeah, I know, right. Like, I think a lot I think a lot of us want to be right.

0:27:16 Eli: I would be right. That's so crazy. That feels like a thing wrong people say.

0:27:24 Tom: But honestly, what's more important in a relationship? Does it matter that I load the dishwasher in a way that she doesn't like? No, it really doesn't. So she's not going to say anything about it because I did the dishes and she's happy to chore off her plate. She can choose to be happy in that circumstance or she can choose to create conflict, right? I'm using a stupid example, but there's like a lot of stuff like that. But I think ultimately, like a Lot of the problems that people have is that fundamentally, they don't really respect the other person that they're with, not really. And they don'T truly appreciate the other person. And as soon as somebody feels that lack of appreciation and a lack of respect, then like the resentment train starts. And that's it. Now that whole fucking well is poisoned because I don't, I think people can get through a lot of shit I don't think you can get through a lack of respect and resentment I think like a fucking single drop of that shit and the whole fucking well is poisoned and it's over and I don'T believe that there's a coming back from that so like that's where people have to be real fucking careful I think when they're like speaking in anger or they're you know behaving in ways that are repetitive like your example thomas most of the behaviors that like poison a relationship are not like oh there's a big sledgehammer moment it's like

0:28:12 Thomas: A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:28:39 Tom: Probably not it's probably like a like a thousand examples of moments where I didn't feel appreciated and respected and I didn'T show you appreciation and respect and as a result this massive distance between us began to grow well

0:28:53 Thomas: And I want to say real quick that like that is another part of what made me feel slightly better about just like life was she gave him so many. Fucking chances it wasn't like uh because there are those people who don't say anything and then all of a sudden for one reason or another maybe they're right maybe they wrong decide they've been wrong this whole time and then just like without ever having to work on the relationship they kind of bail out you know and I think that can be not great on the other side of it but she gave him so many chances he had every opportunity to still be in this marriage if he wanted to and he just like didn't want to I guess like he just didn't I don't I don't even know I don'T even understand it's the weirdest thing

0:29:35 Tom: I think too like there's also because I I left my shitty marriage and I know that it was an absolute shocker it was was an absolute shock to my ex. If you had asked her 15 minutes before I talked to her, how's the relationship? She would have said like, everything's going great. And then I was like, Hey, I'm leaving and not coming back. And I had a 10 minute conversation. I walked out the door and I already had a bag in the car and that was it. 10, maybe 15 minute conversation. And then, and I was gone and never had another conversation of substance after that. And I think like there can also be catalyzing moments where people don't realize the situation that they're in and then they're like oh oh shit yeah no this isn't no this is not going to happen and people fucking figure shit out and I think that's a lot of times like why people end up like cheating on other people that other person that affair partner becomes a catalyst a moment of catalyzation I certainly in my previous relationship I didn't have an affair affair, but I had an emotional confidant that was inappropriate. And I realized I

0:30:42 Eli: Was me, everybody.

0:30:42 Tom: Was like, I would, I was, like, I would rather actually talk to this person just about my life in general. And I felt better when, like she would call me on the phone than going home and sitting on the couch next to my wife. And the moment I realized that out loud to myself, I Was like, well, I'm leaving tomorrow. I will never wake up here again. Cause this is just not a life I'm going going to continue to live. So I do think that most people give people a thousand chances, but it's also important that we do some check -ins. Check -ins with ourselves. Am I being a good partner? Check - ins with our wife or our husband? Like, hey, did you feel loved today? That's not a stupid question. I ask Haley that all the time. I'll just ask her, I'll give her a kiss goodnight and I'll be like, hey did you love today? Or I'll ask her like, is there anything I can do to love you better today? And I feel like if you do that, you're not going to get blindsided. And these these people that get blindsided it's because they've never done any work of making sure that they're like actually doing a good job being a partner to somebody and actually like making sure like hey am I meeting your needs or are we connected are we noticing each other in the ways that people have to notice each other like all that stuff people just take that shit for granted like they take that for granted and like in social circles I'm curious if this will happen Thomas, because I watched it happen in my social circle. The first person in your social circle that gets divorced very often lends a kind of de facto permission to other couples to realize, hey, I can also get divorced. And there's often, not always, but there's always a chain reaction of a couple other people in that sort of larger social group who within a couple of years will follow.

0:30:43 Thomas: What Tom is saying is is Lydia gonna pull the trigger is it gonna

0:32:23 Tom: No, no, no. I'm not saying that at all, but I'm just saying because I think a lot of of people don't especially when we're young we don't necessarily see it as an option not really in the back of our heads we know that's a thing people do but we don'T really necessarily see it as AN OPTION FOR US but then once one of our peers does it I've noticed this just anecdotally like other people are like whoa that is something look at that person they seem happier oh that That person's like, they're not saddled with that chuckle fuck anymore. That feels good. Yeah.

0:32:24 Thomas: Happen no I'm just kidding yeah mm -hmm

0:32:57 Eli: That's the big thing that I have noticed in my friends is that, you know, there's the famous Louis C .K. joke about how there's no such thing as a bad divorce. And like, I think a lot of people live in their heads being like, no, it would be so terrible. Oh, my gosh, my life would be over starting from the ground up. And they see how much more free and happy that divorced couple is.

0:33:21 Eli: And then they're like, oh, how do I get out? Wait, wait, I didn't realize there was a possibility for me to get free here.

0:33:21 Thomas: Shit what if Lydia is like I just don't want to have to podcast so much anymore she's like I'm doing a divorce just to get out of the podcast shit

0:33:36 Eli: God, who could blame her?

0:33:34 Tom: You got to tell like you can quit your job, but that's not the marriage.

0:33:39 Thomas: Yeah specifically

0:33:47 Ad: [Ad break 3 — ad music]

0:33:48 Tom: It's funny. I wonder, Thomas, like this clearly has hit you and has made you wonder like, are there parts like here that rhyme in a way that is difficult? Did that inspire a conversation between you and Lydia to check in and be like, hey, am I doing that too much?

0:34:02 Thomas: On the like the way that she described that that my friend described like feeling dumb I specifically like that night I was like hey I'm just realizing like there may be times I'm still like falling into my old like habits and like the first thing I said was like for one that's entirely me being dumb and I hope if I've ever made you feel dumb please Please realize that's me being an idiot. Like there's no reflection on you. And secondly, it's something I'm always working on. But it's never going to be anything real or major. It's just that I can't always control what my face does when I see something that makes no sense to me. That's really all it is. It's not any deeper because like I have in my heart nothing but all the respect in the world for Lydia and how smart she is. And so that could be another key too because I do think there are a lot of men who just think their wives are dumb. And so like, that might be another part of it where it's like, if I'm ever making Lydia feel dumb, it's not because I think she's dumb. It's because I am not doing something right. You know what I mean? And like, I think that probably I hope counts for a lot. Whereas I think a lot of men, again, just genuinely think their wives are stupid. Some men are just outwardly like that's always the joke they're making is that their wife is dumb. You know what I mean?

0:34:41 Tom: Right. Yeah.

0:35:23 Thomas: Like some men, it's like they're just openly, proudly declaring that their life is dumb in front of them. And it's definitely not ever going to be that.

0:35:31 Tom: Well, I think, too, like there's a huge amount of people and this is not explicitly gendered, but I think men are worse about this than women are in general by probably two to one. But like, I Think there's A ton of people who put people in their lives because those people serve a purpose for them rather than put people In their lives, because they genuinely enjoy the company of that person as a full human being. So there's a huge number of people who like, they'll put someone in their life, whether it's a spouse, whether it'S a friend, whether it' s anybody else throughout any other type of relationship, and they' ll build that relationship around the function somebody performs for them. I like the way they make me feel. I like they way they take care of my kids. I like thE way they, and they can list a whole bunch of functions that somebody serves, rather than, that person's my favorite person to spend time with.

0:36:23 Tom: And if it's not the first one first, then like all that other stuff are actually points of potential conflict. That's what that stuff is, because there's no guarantee that that stuff may not change. Right. People might get a new job or have different demands on their time or fall ill or, you know, who knows, get a sick parent that they have to care for.

0:36:33 Eli: Who they need to be as a parent changes.

0:36:47 Tom: Right there's a thousand things that can change somebody's ability to function in ways and most people that I meet most not some most people see the other humans in their lives in how does this person serve me rather than I just want to find the person that I find the most appealing to spend my time with all I want in the world is just to wake up and spend time with that person for who who they are and if they never do any what they never fucking lift a finger for me ever my life is infinitely better for having seen them smile today if you find that one awesome if you're looking for who serves a function for me then like you're building a spreadsheet robot that's really what you're doing

0:37:31 Eli: Let me hit you with an alternate hot take on that, right? Because I think that's a really good first layer, but I think you do need a functional partner. And so I think a lot of people find that person they love spending time with, they love fucking, they love hanging out with. We have so much fun. And then the reality of life comes around and they're like, ah, shit, they don't do laundry ever or whatever the case might be.

0:37:57 Eli: Right. Like, I, I think you also need someone who can meet you in that partnership.

0:37:57 Tom: Well yes right yeah a hundred percent I agree entirely because it goes back to that idea of respect and appreciation and there's really no way to build something that's wildly lopsided where everybody respects and appreciates the other person right like I could never wake up and know that hayley was working harder than I was and still imagine yeah well that yes

0:38:17 Thomas: End of sentence. Yeah, I got a question for you, Tom. I'm curious. I had this thought and forgive me, but do you ever feel like you had any obligation to have conversations with your ex first about it? And to like, you know, what it reminds me of is every time we talk about polyamory, it's very important to you that like everybody knows up front everything everything that they want, you know, because it's like your values and it's a thing that could be incompatible. But is this different where it's, like, you don't have a responsibility to have conversations with your partner about something that clearly is fundamental to the relationship and whether or not you're going to be able to be together? Is there anything there or no?

0:38:36 Tom: No not once I think two things are true for me at the same time I think the way that I left my ex was mean and I'm very comfortable with that I'm extremely comfortable with that I want to acknowledge it though I think it was mean it was me because I didn't offer for an opportunity to have a lengthy conversation. I didn't have an opportunity to say, Hey, these are the problems and let's work on them, et cetera. And I'm very comfortable with that because I had been together almost 20 years at that point. And, and I knew what was possible and what wasn't possible.

0:39:12 Thomas: Fair enough.

0:39:38 Tom: And I knew what changes were.

0:39:38 Thomas: 20 years. How fucking old are you? Sorry, I thought it was.

0:39:43 Tom: I'm 48. So like she and I got together when I was 17. Then I left when I was, I think, I don't know, like 35 or so, you know?

0:39:49 Thomas: That's fair. So let me give you a hypothetical. Just I know it's going to be hypothetical because it's never happened. But could you imagine being in a marriage with someone where you're going to break up with them or divorce them? But it wouldn't be that like they're like someone is having you're having issues, but it's not like obviously the level of animosity and like not thinking anyone could possibly change where it wouldn'T have gone like that.

0:39:54 Tom: That's okay. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. I think that if somebody is, so like, I, I would not say that like the way that I behaved was prescriptive for other people. It was necessary for me, but it wasn't prescriptative for other People. I Think that like, if you have a relationship where you're like, Hey, fundamentally, I'm not waking up next to you ever again, but I don't think you're a bad person. And I think That maybe I can offer some perspective that might help you down the road. And you would actually act on it. If you believe those things, then a conversation is if it feels good to you to do it, then a conversation is fine. I don't think anyone's obligated to do that because, you know, like my opinion has always been like the conversation is about fixing things. And if you're leaving, the fixing is over. The fixing is done. So like I'm not.

0:40:52 Thomas: The fix is in. No, the fix is...

0:40:58 Tom: Yeah. So, like, I'm not trying to help you be a better person anymore. We're not family anymore. That's literally what we're about to do is become not family anymore. All those those opportunities should have taken place in the past right at the point where you're actually like hey I'm bouncing I feel like you've probably already done that work or you know if that work was possible so like doing it one last try I don't think I'm just like fucking whatever whatever if hayley woke up tomorrow and was like I'm out I'm gone I would spend an inordinate amount of of time thinking about what I might have done to have caused that and try to understand that better. And I feel like if somebody is not the type of person who will just do that by virtue of having lost something that they valued, if instead they're just going to react, blame the other person entirely, et cetera. So if they're, if they'RE just going be like, then they weren't going to learn anything anyway. They weren't really interested in changing. They're interested mostly in justification, right? And, and writing a narrative about themselves that they can look back at and say with fullness, I always was right.

0:41:59 Eli: Partnership yeah

0:42:08 Tom: Does that make sense?

0:42:08 Eli: Yeah no no it totally I mean that's my dad's theory was always no big long talks that's My advice to everybody who's about to go through a breakup because I have a lot of young people in my life who sort of start to use breakup language around me and every time it's funny because every time I say no big Long talks every single time they do not listen to me they describe an afterlife punishment of a night where they're up until four in the morning having a big long, pointless talk. Everyone's so exhausted that they decide not to break up and to adopt a dog together. And then six months later, they break up when she shoots him in the head with a super

0:42:50 Thomas: Happens to you a lot, huh?

0:42:50 Eli: Soaker filled with acid. Yeah.

0:42:51 Thomas: Yeah, I don't know. I still don't Know about that rule. I think it really depends. I don' t know.

0:42:57 Tom: I mean, I, like I said, I think if somebody is like, really, if you're like, Hey, that guy's a good guy, right? Girl's a good girl. We're just not a good fit. Then like, there's really not a lot to talk about, right. Hey, we don't really fit. What's there to talk about? I dated a girl for, you know, six weeks. We just weren't a perfect fit. We broke up. She wanted to have like one of those long talks. I let her talk and I'm like, okay, cool. But nobody's behaved badly. Nobody had any hard feelings. We just weren't compatible. We were, we just weren't compatible.

0:43:19 Eli: There's a ghost in here. I hear a voice.

0:43:23 Tom: And then like, we stopped talking. I hung up the phone and that was it.

0:43:26 Thomas: He had to get Whoopi Goldberg to have the conversation.

0:43:28 Eli: Yeah, exactly. Patrick Swayze was doing pottery with his hands.

0:43:32 Tom: But like, I've not had anybody where it's like, oh, there's going to be this big, the one relationship I had where there was like, after breakup talks ended up in exactly what Eli described. It was like, I broke up, get back together. You know, this like tethered shit that was like bad for everybody. And I'm, I look back at that and I'm like, that was a dumb fucking mistake I should have made as a teenager or not as a 30 something, you know? And it was embarrassing to make that mistake as a grown ass man. So like, yeah, like that's, that's where this comes from for me. I'm Like, yeah. Every I'll make any mistake, but I'll only do it once. And if I make If you make that same mistake twice, then fuck me. That's on me. That's hard on me,

0:44:11 Eli: Yeah yeah. And there's also just the nature of, And we get some of these emails, and I think we might address them in a couple of episodes. There is always a moment where an otherwise intelligent, mature, fully realized adult says a thing that a 15 -year -old would say about their relationship, where you want to be like, come on.

0:44:35 Eli: Come on. You know the answer. Come one. Where it's like, oh, but they're in so many, when it's good, it's good.

0:44:40 Thomas: Wait, what kind of thing? Maybe I don't. Oh, yeah

0:44:45 Eli: And when it's bad, it's bad. That's just bad. That's just bad. You're describing a non -eternal experience. You mean there's variety in your lived experience? Yeah, sometimes it's not bad. THAT'S hell. You'RE describing the Christian hell. Unless you're dating the devil, that shouldn't be your relationship.

0:45:04 Tom: I was also going to say, I do think, at least for me, but I've seen it other places, so I don't want to say this is 100 % true of everybody, but I have seen it enough to say that it may be a truism, if not a truth, is that for a lot of people, if you do certain things at a very young age, It often will cause a kind of like arrested development in your growth in that area. Right. And I do believe that about getting into very serious relationships at a very young age that then last a really, really long time. So like I look back at myself and again, I've seen this with other people. I got into my first and only relationship really when I was 17 years old and I did not go through a lot of the growth phases and experiences that everybody else did as a teenager because like I just didn't have those same experiences and opportunities. And so my development, my emotional relational development was stunted by that mistake. And I think that's actually more common than a lot of people realize. You start building patterns as a teenager and you're building on teenage patterns. Patterns. So while many other things in your life grow and change and mature, and I'm not saying the relationship doesn't, but it doesn't in the same way that people who've had a multiplicity of experience as well. And so I discovered in my thirties that I was very relationally immature and I didn't know shit about fuck. And I had a lot of catching up to do really fast. And I think that that's also really common for people that get into serious relationships when when they're really, really young, that lasts a really long time, is they've not had enough experience under their belt to be like, hmm, yes, no, I can adapt to that. That feels good. That feels bad. This is acceptable. That's unacceptable. They just don't have a rubric that they've built within themselves to do that. So I think that also contributes a lot of times to that thing you were just describing, Eli, where people are like a grown -ass man and they're saying something about their relationship like they're 15 it's because they're in stasis at 15

0:47:03 Tom: Or 16 or 17 you kind of can get stuck you know what I mean if you start something at too early of an age

0:47:11 Clip: DEAR OLD DADS

0:47:17 Eli: Alright, gentlemen. I'm actually going through a little bit of relationship trouble myself last night in bed. Anna was mumbling about being born in 1892 and riding the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings, and I couldn't help but think to myself, she's talking in her sleep again.

0:47:39 Tom: Couple two tree friends you know

0:48:26 Eli: But also I can just tell that someone's trying to sing a song at Pavarotti.

0:48:31 Tom: They're not saddled with that chuckle fuck anymore