DOD280: How Much Can We Control What We Find Attractive?

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that doesn't care where you get your appetite as long as you eat at home. I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:33 Thomas: Ha ha ha ha. That's funny.

0:00:40 Tom: That's my dad saying. Like, I hate it so much, but that's my Dad saying. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

0:00:42 Thomas: Oh, really? That's your dad's saying? Oh my God. What am I going to learn about your fucking dad this time?

0:00:49 Eli: Tom, we listened to the Tom's dad is terrible and Tom doesn't know it episode.

0:00:50 Tom: It's not terrible.

0:00:54 Eli: How do you feel? Have you listened to that bad boy?

0:00:57 Tom: No, uh -uh. No. I don't - I've stopped listening to any of my podcasts. I just - I don't listen to them.

0:00:58 Eli: No, you didn't give that one a good ol' lissaroo.

0:01:02 Thomas: Not a fan, huh?

0:01:02 Eli: It was interesting because a lot of the time when an episode comes out I'll be like, oh I wonder and Anna obviously listens to our show and I was like Let me know what cuz I saw the title. I was oh, okay. This is the Tom. His dad is evil and Tom Doesn't know episode. What do you think about this episode? And she was like, why does Tom's dad hate him?

0:01:05 Tom: Yeah, he's not evil.

0:01:21 Thomas: Yeah.

0:01:21 Eli: And I was like okay!

0:01:21 Tom: He doesn't hate anyone. He doesn't hate us at

0:01:23 Eli: Because that whole episode is just you being like that's something, my father would never give me a kiss. He would never he would never kiss me and say I love you son. But that's just who he is. That's just what he is, that's who he's a guy.

0:01:28 Tom: All, no, no, no. My dad will, like, I've said before, my dad will give me a hug anytime. Like, he's happy to do it. He says I love you. Like, he's not

0:01:41 Thomas: Yeah, they're practically fucking dating relative to me and my dad.

0:01:44 Tom: Cold. Yeah, he's not cold, like we talked about on the show. I'm not sure why he

0:01:48 Thomas: Keeping it professional. Just keeping it professional Yeah,

0:01:50 Tom: I'm not sure exactly why he keeps his distance, but, you know, there's a certain amount of distance that he has, but, you know, it's not, it's fine.

0:01:56 Thomas: Just doesn't like you that much. But more importantly, for now, I want to know why he has that saying. Why does he say that? When does it come up?

0:02:03 Tom: Oh, like it's just like, uh, it's a joke that he makes, looking at, like, an attractive person or, like, an attractive woman or whatever, and he's like, you know, like, it doesn't matter where you get your appetite as long as you eat at home. Like, it says, that's his joke.

0:02:15 Thomas: Eli, are you as blown away by this as I am? Tom's dad just has a saying about like getting strange, you know?

0:02:22 Tom: No, no. Just like looking at an attractive Woman, like he would, but the joke is he would never do anything with anyone else. Like, that's what the joke says.

0:02:22 Eli: I

0:02:24 Thomas: Okay. Yeah, that's fair. No, I get it. It was just funny. Like, I can never predict your dad. I will never, ever be able to predict. No. Yeah.

0:02:34 Tom: No, because he's not a type. No, yeah, my dad is interesting in so many ways because he is not of a type where you're like, "Oh, I've met somebody like that before." Like, no, you haven't.

0:02:43 Eli: Feel like he's super of a type, that's crazy to me.

0:02:46 Thomas: Do you ever feel like you can predict anything that he's going to do or say? Because I don't.

0:02:51 Tom: Yeah, I know him. I've known him for 48 years. I know him very, very well.

0:02:55 Eli: I think we should expose your dad to the horribleness that is me. Because think about the walls that would be shattered in that moment. And look, I know it wouldn't be pleasant for you. And I know it wouldn't be pleasant for your dad. Right? We're not going to pretend that meeting me would be a good experience for anybody involved. But we'd get so many answers.

0:03:16 Tom: Yeah.

0:03:17 Thomas: Yeah?

0:03:17 Eli: We just place a recorder in the...

0:03:17 Tom: Ah, I don't think so. Yeah.

0:03:19 Thomas: I vote yes on this.

0:03:20 Eli: He's an older guy. He's probably stronger than me. But he's not used to fighting someone he's just met. So I feel like I could get so much. Come on. I have so many questions about your mom that we could get answered. Think about it. Oh, he would absolutely try to. There would have to be, and Tom, open your heart.

0:03:27 Tom: Yeah.

0:03:32 Thomas: Oh wow, I think he would nope out of the room. So

0:03:40 Eli: There would have to be a restraint situation. Thank you, Thomas.

0:03:41 Thomas: Fast restraints of some kind. All

0:03:46 Tom: My My dad at 78 with a bad back, like, you just, like, tip him over

0:03:50 Eli: This is what I'm saying.

0:03:50 Tom: With a feather. He's very, yeah.

0:03:50 Thomas: All of a sudden he's all better. He's like, you know what, I'm fine. Gets up. Walks, hasn't walked in 10 years. Yeah, uh, wow.

0:03:54 Tom: Right, yeah, just, I'm healed. Right, yeah, right, yes. Oh, my

0:03:54 Eli: It just does a cartwheel out the window. Two more wishes. But gentlemen, do you know the only thing worse than Tom's dad's experience of being in a room with me. Why? It's the auto ads. They're ruining your podcast experience. You're sitting there, you're trying to enjoy a podcast, and then, blam! Every 25 seconds, your podcast is ruined by outsiders, interlopers, immigrants, even. Ha, ha, Ha. I don't know why, but on an iWord, that's what came to me. But you can make those auto ads go away over at patreon.com forward slash dear old dads.

We're for as little as a dollar. You'll get a commercial-free version of every single episode. You get a monthly bonus episode. And of course you get a parenting story at the end of every single show. You can also contribute to our AMAs. We got a hot, fresh Oh, what's that? Oh, watch your hands. Watch your hands because it's a hot piping Fresh new AMA that we started working on for this month's bonus episode, and you can get all of that over at patreon.com forward slash dear old dads. RIP into it. That My notes there just said long and creepy.

0:04:23 Tom: God, Jesus Christ.

0:05:04 Thomas: Oh, wow, what happened, Eli, you okay?

0:05:09 Tom: Oh my Gosh, well, you nailed

0:05:10 Eli: Nice.

0:05:10 Thomas: Yeah, oh

0:05:16 Ad: [Ad break 1 — ad music]

0:05:18 Tom: It, Thomas, you found a video that got served up to you by the algorithm.

0:05:21 Thomas: God, this got served up to me, and maybe topic for another show, but I think why this happened is Lydia and I were going through it a little bit, we were realizing this,

0:05:23 Eli: Fuck yeah. We're gonna get A divorce. Mm.

0:05:32 Tom: Them. Oh shit.

0:05:32 Thomas: We are divorcing, no, we're kind of having some, like, conflict. And long story short, like, I think we've kind of gotten into, Eli's talked about it a lot, gotten into that, like when we have so much work stress and kids stress, we had gotten a little bit into the like roommate thing a little bit, or just like coworker thing where it's like, there's not, I think we kind of, maybe we're taking each other for granted a little bit, you know, and, and we were going, we were going through some stuff. I think it's a lot better now, but it was so creepy because instantly the algorithm knew that we were like in a fight. It just started serving me up all this marriage stuff. Like I swear to fucking God, the creepy AI overlords, they're listening or they're what? Like, am I, do I sound like a crazy person? Does this happen to you?

0:05:48 Tom: This

0:05:56 Eli: -hmm.

0:06:16 Tom: Shit happens constantly. Like with this stuff, they're constantly being like, we're not listening, and then it's like, well then Fucking why am I getting an ad that directly corresponds to a moment in my life that literally didn't happen until right now? They're fucking listening.

0:06:17 Thomas: Yeah, seriously. Yeah. And what's so funny is I got served something. Now it could have been, you never know. Maybe I Googled like how to not be a piece of shit or something. I don't know. Who knows? I Googled like, I am clearly failing. Yeah.

0:06:37 Eli: Bad Husband

0:06:39 Tom: File not found. That's weird. Yeah, what, bad gateway, I can't. Let's not. Hmm.

0:06:42 Thomas: Or maybe she did. Yeah, why husbands suck bad or something. Maybe it was that.

0:06:47 Eli: Why

0:06:49 Tom: Lydia's gonna start writing into the show for advice.

0:06:52 Thomas: Yeah, what was so funny is I got served a video and I swear to God this wasn't the only one. I got a bunch of marriage stuff instantly, of course, but this one I think it guessed wrong on this one and I Started, I think it maybe guessed wrong and I just couldn't even believe it. So I'm just going to play it. Let me know when we've had enough.

0:06:54 Tom: Oh, you think so? Yeah.

0:07:08 Eli: Oh, I'm ready.

0:07:09 Clip: It's normal for me to be attracted to other women, right? Well, let me guess, that's what you heard in your men's accountability group. Yeah, like there's beautiful women everywhere, and noticing them is like noticing a beautiful sunset, as long as I don't look for too long. So when you say you're looking at her beauty, are you saying you're looking at your butt or her boobs? Both. So this has nothing to do with beauty, as I assumed. And this has everything to do with what you've wired in to believe is attractive. Hence why attraction is something that can be wired out. Ever think about why you and every other man in your accountability group find different women to be beautiful or attractive?

Because you've all been exposed to different content growing up, chosen to be exposed, not chosen to who you find to be attractive. So you're suggesting that my early childhood experiences play a role in my Yeah, and all the current raunchy content you choose to look at on social media. There is that. Normalizing attraction and calling it noticing beauty is actually just a cop out from taking responsibility for what you've chosen to look at, objectify, and feast on when you can actually choose to rewire all that and be solely attracted to your spouse? Objectifying other women will never satisfy your soul. Whether

0:07:36 Thomas: It's a little role play, obviously.

0:08:34 Thomas: Oh, now they're out of the scene.

0:08:38 Clip: You call it attraction, being tempted, it does not matter because it wasn't what you were designed for. I know it's a countercultural thought, but track with us. Attraction means you desire a level of intimacy with the thing you're attracted to. I only long to have that with my wife. So looking for another partner, then it's time to close the loop. Take a look at all of the content you viewed, all of your unwanted sexual experiences, and begin to heal so that you aren't scanning the horizon for somebody who is not your wife and calling it something else than what it is, which is objectifying somebody. We're not here to shame anybody. We are here to empower you that if you want to direct all of yourself.

0:08:49 Thomas: This is good stuff here. This good stuff. Oh, heel.

0:09:14 Thomas: All right. That's all I can take of that. That was the weirdest thing. And I only watched it with the subtitles. With the voices, it's even more disturbing. So anyway, Tom, why did you make

0:09:21 Eli: Yeah. Yeah.

0:09:23 Tom: Well, look, all right. First of all, I

0:09:24 Eli: Tom, how does it feel to have the same thoughts as that video?

0:09:25 Thomas: That no

0:09:29 Tom: Do not have the same thoughts as that video. I do think there's obviously there's a lot of nonsense in there, right? I do think there's a huge amount of nonsense there and they're obviously selling something.

0:09:37 Thomas: No

0:09:37 Eli: But there's a lot of great points as

0:09:40 Tom: Well I think there are a couple of things that are worth talking about in there.

0:09:43 Thomas: There's zero. Okay, we're talking about there are no good points in that video. I'm sorry yeah sure

0:09:45 Tom: I think they're alluding to a truth that attraction is at least partially socially constructed and it absolutely is partially socially constructed. I think they allude to that. I think that that's true.

0:09:54 Thomas: You know what else is socially constructed? Monogamy? I love The idea that she's like, "That's just what you were wired with as a kid, and you can change that." I'm just thinking, yeah, you could change not being fucking pissed about nothing. You could also change that. What's harder to change? What's fundamentally attractive to you? Like, how far away is this from gay conversion camps? Like you, "Oh, you can change." No. Oh, are you kidding me?

0:09:58 Tom: Well, sure.

0:10:15 Tom: A light years away. It's light years away. Yeah, yeah.

0:10:19 Thomas: You can change what's attractive to you. That's just from what you're wiring when you were a kid, but you could choose that. Oh yeah. What if you could just change being so fucking obsessed with monogamy? Why don't you just change that? Why is that not the thing you change?

0:10:31 Tom: Those things I don't think have, they don't even correlate, I don't think. No, I don't think they correlate at all.

0:10:36 Eli: Well, Oh, No, guys.

0:10:34 Thomas: They don't correlate, so The idea that— Come on, Tom, you're being silly.

0:10:39 Eli: We can't fight. We can fight. We have to be nice to

0:10:39 Tom: No I'm not. Look, no. All right. So I, look, I think that behaving as if attraction is completely out of our control or exists absent inputs from our lives.

0:10:50 Thomas: I didn't say that.

0:10:50 Tom: I think that is like, well, I mean, yeah, you're saying it's fundamentally part of who we are, right? Like that's one of the first things that you said.

0:10:56 Thomas: Yeah, but that's still the inputs of your life could have made you who you

0:11:01 Tom: Sure. But you continue to build inputs. You continue to add inputs, right? It's not like a static thing.

0:11:05 Thomas: Are maybe, but she's maybe, but she's also talking about, like, your childhood and your, you know, whatever, like, you can't change your childhood.

0:11:10 Tom: Talking about childhood and then also additional input that they continue to, she's not exclusively talking about it as only childhood. That's actually both things are mentioned like, and also continued content that is consumed. But like if attraction was something that was static and that was outside of our control. And let's say we were attracted to people in their 20s because we're in our 20s. And we're not attracted to People in their 40s because We're in our 20s and then we aged and we're 50 and then We're going to look at our wife and be like well shit like now you're 50 in there not attractive because I'm still stuck in this mode where I'm attracted only to 20 somethings attraction changes if it doesn't change with you over time, then you're fucked, right?

0:11:50 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. It for sure changes.

0:11:57 Tom: Your relationship is totally fucked. Yeah. Well, and I don't think it changes outside of our control either. I think attraction is a really complicated thing that we sometimes oversimplify as being something that we don't have any personal input into. And I think if you think along those lines, that's when you end up with somebody like Leonardo DiCaprio, that's always only dating 25-year-olds, right?

Because his ability to be attracted to people who are appropriate to his age and his cohort has not matured as he's matured. People also stop being attracted to their spouses and their spouses gain weight, right, because that wasn't what they were initially attracted to, and I can't help what I'm attracted to. It's just this static thing about me that I have no input or control over. That is nonsense, sense. And I think they are hinting and talking about that.

And I think that if you accept the idea that attraction is just this fundamentally rooted thing in you that you don'T have any like direct explicit work and control over and influence on then like, yeah, what happens if something happens with your spouse, like in your spouse, I don't know, ages, or their body changes. If you don'T have any control over that, then you'RE You're stuck. Right.

0:13:10 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, but I don't even think that's really the main point of the thing, because it could be that, let's say this dingus is super attracted to exactly his wife, but then he's like looking at other women who look just like his wife or that type. She would still be like, "That's fucking You can't do that at all. You should pluck out thine own eye rather than look at another woman." Yeah.

0:13:30 Tom: Well, I think that's rude to do. Yeah, I do think that is A rude thing to do. No, I think it is incredibly rude to do, but I was saying, like, if you said, like, do they, are they making any good points?

0:13:33 Eli: Pluck out your

0:13:41 Thomas: Zero good points.

0:13:41 Tom: I think they made two good points. No, I think, I think, I think they're hinting at the idea that attraction is something that you have some control over. I think that's true, and I think it's something that we don't talk about. I think there's a lot of people who talk about and use the idea of attraction as a static principle of their personality as a way to justify why they're no longer attracted to their spouse after their spouse has kids and gains weight, or they're no longer attractive to their spouse when their spouse gets older, because that's not, I'm just, you know, you can't control what you're attracted to. My wife or my husband has changed and I'm no longer attracted to them. And I think like that is a really troublesome lie that we tell ourselves.

0:14:20 Thomas: And that's why you gotta head on over to Tom's gay conversion therapy camp. You can finally, uh, I think I mostly disagree with it. I don't really think... Okay, so describe this method of changing what you're attracted to. I agree that what you're attracted to can

0:14:24 Tom: No, do you disagree agree with that Wow.

0:14:36 Tom: Would you agree that it has to change?

0:14:36 Thomas: Change, and it's definitely changed for me. That it has to change, uh,

0:14:40 Tom: That it must change in order for a relationship to last 30 years and be successful.

0:14:44 Thomas: Well, um, I don't know if that's a meaningful question. I mean, you could also be attracted to, like, older women when you're younger, and then it wouldn't have to change. Speak

0:14:52 Tom: But let's say you weren't, but let's say, okay, but socially most of us are not, right, when we're, let's, let's start off at a place of reality, let's

0:14:58 Thomas: For yourself, man, I've always been into MILFs.

0:15:01 Eli: Eyes.

0:15:01 Tom: Socially, we're generally not, right, but

0:15:02 Thomas: I was like 10 and I was into my friend's mom. I was, goddamn, yeah.

0:15:06 Tom: Like we are generally attracted to young people when we're young, we're generally attracted to fit or thinner people in general as a social cohort, right? But over time, bodies change and bodies age. If our attractions don't change, right, if our attractions don't, then we cannot have a successful functioning relationship over time. Would you disagree with that?

0:15:22 Eli: Not mine, king.

0:15:23 Thomas: Uh, I just depend. I don't. Again, it depends on where you started, I guess.

0:15:37 Tom: But I'm using, again, like go to what is socially normal. Most people typically, and yeah, no,

0:15:42 Thomas: Oh, wait, Tom, I think I get where the disconnect is here. I think you're in the, yeah,

0:15:47 Eli: You're so wrong about everything.

0:15:50 Tom: What? What? Tell me where I'm wrong.

0:15:50 Thomas: You're Wrong. No, the disconnect, well, I don't know if you're wrong, it's just that you're using you and I'm using me. Like, I, I feel like I'm using you, I'm, I think the backing assumption that is getting us on cross purposes or whatever is, I think you are on the backing assumption that you have to only be attracted to your wife's type or your wife for a successful relationship. And, yeah. And so I'm saying you don't necessarily have to have changed because I don't know where you started.

0:16:07 Tom: No, I'm saying you have to be attracted to your wife for a successful relationship. Right. Okay.

0:16:15 Thomas: Like you might've started being into a broad, you know, like many different kinds of women.

0:16:18 Tom: But, but do you think that it's very frustrating?

0:16:21 Thomas: What? I honestly was, I thought I was finding common ground. Like, honestly, I meant, um,

0:16:24 Tom: I guess maybe let's, let's try to find common ground because maybe I'm right. I'm not. I don't know. We just can't find a common space. It is my, it is my assertion that most people that are young people are mostly attracted to young people.

0:16:29 Eli: It's that one time in case you're wondering. I know I'm not participating.

0:16:40 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. I think so. But I don'T think that means they're unattracted to older people. And I genuinely, I don' t know about that. Is that like, I'm genuine and Tom, honest to God, I, I though I was finding the common ground, I wasn't trying to be frustrating. Yeah. You, you weren't into older ladies at all when you of attractive?

0:16:42 Tom: Okay, as long as those old people look young. Yeah.

0:16:54 Tom: So I don'T think we agree that I think fundamentally, we just disagree. So So I think that that's it.

0:17:00 Tom: You know, the older ladies that I found attractive, they were attractive because they didn't necessarily look their age. They were an outlier who looked young for their age, I think, that that is more typical, but maybe it's not. I think socially that's the way the entire world behaves, so that's why I feel like that's more typical. Like, when we think about markers of general attractiveness, socially speaking, we are talking about young people. We are not talking about, oh, just throw the dart at the dartboard and nobody can figure out what we're talking about. That's not true. Right.

0:17:06 Thomas: Oh, okay.

0:17:33 Thomas: No, no, no. That's not what I'm saying. Yeah, I know. But I think the two disconnects might be that, what I just said, and then also the idea that in order to be in a successful relationship, you'd have to be with someone who's exactly the most attractive thing to you. That I also don't think is true.

0:17:48 Tom: I'm not saying they have to be the most attractive to you. Yeah, no, I'm just thinking

0:17:50 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, so that's what I am saying. It's like you can be in relationship with someone that you're attracted to, but it's not like they're literally the hottest person in the world to you, you know what I mean? So I think there's all kinds of flexibility in there that doesn't necessarily mean you have to have, like, changed and adapted along the way, is all I'm saying.

0:18:09 Tom: We are fundamentally starting off at such a completely different, disconnected point. The assumption I'm going off of is that all of the world has socially sent a message that describes beauty and attractiveness generally as being synonymous with youth and a certain body type. And those body types change over time, but generally speaking, that is what we have said. This is attractive, right? Right.

0:18:31 Thomas: Totally agree. Completely agree. Yeah.

0:18:38 Tom: And people tend, tend as a rule to find somebody attractive at the time that they do their initial, like, fucking mate selection or whatever. Right. When they're dating and they're, you know, first, like, finding somebody and then they want to live a life with somebody over the course of years. And over the course of those years, that person in their life's body will age and change in ways that they almost certainly would not have found attractive when they were 22 years old. I don't think that that is a crazy statement. I think that is very self -evidently true in all of the ways that our society has structured itself, in all the ways we describe and proscribe beauty and beauty standards. I don't know very many people at 22, for example, who would say, yes, I find a 65 year old woman attractive who's put on 40 pounds.

0:19:37 Thomas: I mean, that's taken a little further than I would say, but I do, I do know plenty of, I would say when I was like 20, I would say I pretty much would agree with you until I was about like 20, maybe 25 or so. Like, things started just adjusting a little bit and it's like a broader swath of women I found attractive and, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah.

0:19:40 Tom: But OK, but like but like think outside of yourself and think about what like socially speaking, because, again, like everybody's individual mileage may vary. That's fine. But like we do know certain demographic things are true. Right. Broadly speaking.

0:20:09 Thomas: Right, I know, but you just asked me if you have to change your taste and I was just saying that not necessarily, because some people have a broad taste already, that's all.

0:20:15 Tom: Okay, so not every single person has to change. Let me rephrase it to be ridiculous. Not every single person has to change because there might be some small number of outliers who have, at a very young age, a way wider perception of beauty than is socially typical. So let's exclude those people for the point of the conversation. And let's say we're talking about the general population, then yes, your ideas about what is attractive should mature and change as time goes on.

Because if it doesn't, and you are stuck thinking that what is beautiful is what your head told you is beautiful and what society told you was beautiful in your 20s, that is not going to serve your relationship after three kids, because that is very likely to be different.

Does that feel entirely bonkers to you guys? You don't know the social trope of, like, a million dudes who are upset that their wives' bodies changed over time, and now they're like, like, this is just an entirely foreign thing that, like, you've never heard of online or elsewhere that isn't, like, a part of the manosphere content, etc., etc. This is just totally left field. Yeah.

0:21:30 Eli: Let me tell you the problem that I'm having getting to where you are, which is that, and look, maybe it could just be a nature of me not quite following along with you, which is that I think this particular video seems to be about controlling attraction entirely. That attraction is a completely arbitrary, non-organic, external societal construct that a certain amount... I mean, they don't say Jesus, but we know they mean Jesus. And I want to be clear, Tom, I'm not saying that this is your point.

0:22:01 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:22:06 Tom: Yeah.

0:22:06 Eli: I think, you know, that a certain amount of Jesus would just allow you to drop this. You know, you could go to hypnotherapy and stop smoking. Right.

0:22:13 Thomas: Yeah, when they say, like, oh, it's not what you're made for, whatever, that's with the tell that they're saying Jesus.

0:22:17 Tom: All of that is nonsense, but I am saying, like, there are some nuggets in here that are buried that are worth a conversation. Yeah.

0:22:19 Eli: Right. So what I think is interesting is I actually think that they are using an interesting and complex conversation about attraction, which is the one that I think you're getting at or wanting to have to have a completely uninteresting conversation, which is that Jesus can make you only attracted to your wife. Right? Yeah, because they're selling their camp to stop jerking off to people that aren't your wife. What I think is interesting is the core underlying idea about how much control we have over attraction.

You are like three steps ahead of me right now in terms of that. Because I'm all the way back at, like, how much control do we have over attraction, and how much of an obligation do we have to rest control over that if it's something that we can gain control over? Right, like, so for instance, if we have, like, violent tendencies, I think we are all in agreement that it's pretty important that if you're a naturally violent person that you get those under control and make better, gentler choices, no matter what your natural instinct is. And I think that's because we all understand you can control your anchor. I don't know if one can control their natural attraction or if it is because I think your point about as people grow and get older and get fatter, uh, with the exception of me, of course, because I've aged like a fine wine, I think the point that you're making about that is really interesting, because my question in that scenario is not, does attraction change? It is, do other factors matter more than

0:22:41 Tom: 100%, because they're selling something. Yeah.

0:23:59 Thomas: Yeah.

0:23:59 Eli: Attraction? Do other things come into the math equation where we go, yeah, my husband, you know, Eli, he doesn't look like he was when he was 19, but he's a great dad and we've had these experiences together. And that That average has brought the attraction up. Like, I wonder if attraction itself is an average of factors. And like, while my handsome score has gone down, my being the father of my wife's son score has gone way up. And that's the thing. Does that make sense?

0:24:09 Thomas: Yeah.

0:24:25 Thomas: Way up.

0:24:26 Tom: Right, right. Yeah, and I would agree with that, I guess. It all, for me, that all just lives all in the same attraction bucket. Like, I think for me the idea of separating attraction from how we feel about somebody is nonsense personally, because exactly what you're describing, and because I've had a million experiences with people where they've said some variation of, you know, "I wasn't so attracted to this person, but the more I got to know them, the more attractive they were," or, you know, "this person is really attractive until they opened their fucking mouth, and now I can't imagine the ick any harder." The idea that attraction is separate, because, like, attraction isn't this, like, simple bodily one-to-one, it is far more complex than that, and I think, like, recognizing that complexity is tied in with social construct, personal behavior, how close or not close, how trusted or not trusted somebody is, all of that stuff is built in to that idea of attraction.

And it is complicated. And I think that to the extent that it is possible to shift our ideas away from attraction being only this sort of, like, body is good, I like that body. Like, that's not actually how most attraction works. I don't think, genuinely, in the real world.

0:25:13 Eli: I'm right here and actually pretty hurtful to me, Tom. I'm living my best life.

0:26:07 Ad: [Ad break 2 — ad music]

0:26:10 Thomas: Now it might be my turn to say, like, okay, but don't you see how, like, society works? Because I think what you're describing there, Tom, I agree with, but I actually don't think that's how society operates. I don't think broadly society operates as though attraction is much more than just the physical body. Don't you think if we're appealing to, like, what broadly society thinks?

0:26:28 Tom: And I, yeah. And I think that is a massive problem that needs to be resolved in order for people to have functioning relationships. There's a huge amount of, like, and it very much is, like, an enormous amount of this pressure falls on women, and the manosphere preaches this exact content that, like, women are being pressured to maintain an unrealistic youthful beauty standard for the entirety of their lives in order for their man to stay attracted to them rather than than understanding that attraction really is this complicated interplay between maturity and intimacy and a relationship and trust.

And if we have the other conversation about how attraction is only physicality, one, that's not really true. In good and healthy relationships, what you hear from everybody is like, yeah, my wife put on a little weight and I don't fucking care. I think she looks beautiful, right? That's what you really hear in a good and health relationship. Relationship or like, yeah, my husband's got love handles. And like, I would, I'd never want him to get rid of that belly.

Like they don't, I don't need that six pack. And you know, maybe I had one or they had one, you know? And it's not there anymore. And nobody cares because like Eli said, like he's a great father and he's loving husband. And those things are all in that attraction bucket. That's how healthy relationships work.

But like, if we don't say it out loud, if If we instead treat attraction as if it's only the physicality portion of things, then we create and sort of enhance that sort of like, well, you know, when she gets older, I'll trade her in for a younger model mentality. And that is a cancer. Yeah, that's a cancer, right? Isn't that a cancer? Yeah, no, no. No, no!

So, obviously, these guys are fucking Christian grifters, right, but like, I do think that they are hinting badly, and I would never take their class. They don't have anything good to say. I don't want someone to be clear about that. But they are hinting at what I think is an important reality about the complexity of attraction and the way that we need to exert some control over that rather than just being like, well, it's out of my control. It's just something that happens to me, not something that I evolve into and with.

0:28:05 Eli: Which Tom is saying is bad. Now I'm, now I'm confused, Tom, you've lost me. Sorry, I was joking. That was a joke. That was just me joking. Right.

0:28:44 Eli: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because Thomas brought up the gay conversion therapy thing, and like one of the tricks of gay conversion therapy is they do use the ephemeral nature of sexuality and the fact that sexuality is a spectrum to, like, push their "stop being gay because Jesus wants you to" agenda.

Similarly, I think that these people have hit, it's so funny because I thought we wouldn't have an interesting, I thought we would just dunk on these fucking weirdos and we've actually found something so much more interesting, because I think there are two unhealthy extremes here, right? The unhealthy extreme that they are coming from is, like, attraction is a math problem. And if you just twist the other knobs, you never have to acknowledge anything about what your body wants or what people look like.

Physical attraction is just this like one factor inside the math equation. And ifyou acknowledge it, it's because you don't love Christ enough. And then on the other side is the good concept that I think they're kind of twisting, which is that your sense of attraction does need to change and that a big part of toxic masculinity is this idea that, like, what my dick point at is

0:29:36 Tom: Right.

0:29:50 Thomas: Yeah.

0:29:50 Eli: The only thing you ever owe allegiance to when it comes to attraction.

0:29:53 Tom: Yeah, yeah. And I think, yeah, that just doesn't serve anybody. I don't think it serves men, and I don't know. Yeah.

0:29:54 Thomas: Yeah.

0:29:58 Eli: Serves my dick.

0:30:01 Thomas: So a couple of things for one, I think that is also all a side conversation to what they're actually talking about, which is strictly enforced monogamy, because You could, like, like I said earlier, I could be attracted to only exactly my wife's type. But then this person is saying, if I'm even looking at someone else who looks exactly like my wife, then I'm being horrible and I need, like, that was mainly the thing that I was reacting to, was the extremism of, like, you can't. What is the thing in the stupid scene that the dude has done wrong? It was like looking at a girl, I think. Right.

0:30:09 Eli: Oh, for sure.

0:30:38 Eli: Right, yeah, so that's...

0:30:38 Thomas: So that that's the part. So, Tom, it would be two separate issues, too, to be like it's one thing to say, are you attracted to a certain type of person? Can that change over time? Yes. No. Another to be Like and also if there's like another person who looks pretty much exactly the type you're attracted to, you also can't be attracted to them. And the other thing is, I actually I think my tastes have changed for one. I do think I imagine we may get some write ins about this because I do think that, like, I wasn't trying to to be weird. I do think there are a lot more people maybe than you are thinking of, Tom, that have, have tastes that are the way you're describing. I think, I think people have been into, you know, older.

0:31:13 Eli: If you're an old person pervert, let us know at The

0:31:16 Thomas: It's not even that I was just talking about like MILF types. I'm not even talking about, I'm Not, you Know, like

0:31:17 Tom: Yeah.

0:31:17 Eli: Dads at Dear Old... No, no, no. No, that's not what I asked for, Thomas. Don't interrupt me. Please never interrupt me if you want someone fragile enough not to fight back. Please write a sentence.

0:31:21 Thomas: I just, yeah. Oh, okay. You will, you want to hear from them. Yeah.

0:31:30 Tom: I agree with that.

0:31:31 Thomas: And so just the last, the last comment real quick, and then I'll throw it over to you. I agree that my, my tastes have definitely changed, but I also don't have any accounting for why that is. So I would agree with you that I think the ideal, and I totally agree that like, oh, the best couples, they would be how you're describing, completely agree. And I feel that way about Lydia. I've been attracted all along. There's never been a time, you know, it's kind of funny when, when her body has gone through changes, it's been weird to look at pictures and be like, oh, you look so different now.

Like, I didn't notice, you know, 'cause I didn't really care until, like, you notice after the fact, it's like, oh yeah, oh wow, your body is totally different. It's weird to see now, like, how different it is, but I know I didn't notice or care at the time. I've been along for the ride, but I also don't, I don't have any accounting for that, so that wasn't an effort I made, you know, that wasn't anything I can consciously account for, so it would be good if that was, like, a controllable thing. I actually don't know because I have no story of why that, that

0:31:54 Tom: Yeah. Right. Right.

0:32:15 Eli: I hate it.

0:32:36 Tom: Here's the thing, like, I would agree that, like, more often than not in a good relationship where everything is just kind of working the way that, you know, fingers crossed, it should, right? Right? Should is doing a lot of work there. Much of this processing, like a lot of our processing around what we find attractive, just kind of happens in the background, right? That math or that computer program is running in the background. It's running sort of absent our direct explicit input output. But like, I also don't necessarily think that's the only way it has to run. I don't have any direct experience of that, but I don't think that I really really like, maybe I just don't like the idea, but I don't like the that there are things about who I am that need to change in order for me to be happy over time and that I have no control over. And so maybe they won't change and I won't be happy. I don't really like that.

0:33:33 Tom: I DON'T believe in that. I DONT. I Don't believe that's how an intentional self has to work. I have never had to think about whether or not I was was attracted to Haley, that's never been anything I've had to self-interrogate, right, but like, I 100% believe that it is possible and even preferable to do that if necessary, rather than to just sort of fall into the trap the other direction that that, again, I think people use as an excuse to throw people away as they age, to cheat and, like, behave badly with people whose whose bodies have changed or matured.

And that's a real thing that happens a lot, a lot. And I don't think that like we should give ourselves an out as if there's this static truth about who we are, because for most people, it's not a static truth. It's something that's going to like, you know, I'm aging too, you Know, and like I want Haley to always be attracted to me. And I Don't look the same way that I did when we met 10 years ago.

And I'm not going to look that way in 20 years. And like, I would hope that would be something that naturally changes for her, but that if it doesn't, she's not like, well, fucking I'm Not Into It. And I'M NOT GOING TO DO ANY WORK TO GET INTO IT.

That is cancer to me, and I think that that's a really powerful manosphere, right-wing kind of message that floats out there that, like, rests on the idea that there's immutable characteristics of the self rather than constructed characteristics of the self, and I don't necessarily believe that attraction is immutable, I think it's constructed, and I believe that if it's constructed, we have some amount of control over it. That's the only thing about, like, everything else you said, like, about their message, I think is fucking awful. I will say, like, personally, I think it's rude to look at other people

0:33:33 Thomas: Happened to look at other people. Yeah, sure.

0:35:35 Eli: You know, he's done. That's it. That's the whole end of this app.

0:35:36 Tom: I, yeah, man, like, if, if Hayley and I are sitting outside and, like, some guy walks by and she just decides to track him with her head and eyes in front, like, I think that would be incredibly disrespectful, incredibly disrespectful.

0:35:48 Thomas: But that's a construct of monogamy. So that's not something that needs to exist. That's that's your preference.

0:35:50 Eli: Oh, that'S crazy. I want to dwell on how crazy the thing that Tom just said is.

0:35:53 Tom: Yeah. Yeah, look, if that's, that's not something you find rude.

0:35:55 Thomas: Yeah. Yes. It is not something I find.

0:36:00 Tom: I'm not saying it is capital R rude. Right. So let me be very clear. If you don't find it rude, I don't give a shit. Eat with your elbows on the table. You know what I mean? Like, that's your shit. That's fine. I would find that entirely unacceptable.

0:36:13 Eli: And again, I'm a pervert, so big, big caveat. Obviously, I don't know what people are. You don't have fun with your wife when, like, a hot chick walks by, being like, look, look, look, want, no?

0:36:23 Tom: No, no, no.

0:36:27 Thomas: Yeah I don't.

0:36:27 Eli: Oh my god, no.

0:36:27 Tom: No. No, never. No, I don't. No.

0:36:29 Eli: You got neither of you

0:36:30 Thomas: I'm with you. I'M WITH YOU ELI. I'm with you Eli.

0:36:32 Tom: No?

0:36:33 Eli: Okay, good. I was worried. I was really hoping Thomas would join me in the pervert parade there if Thomas had said no

0:36:34 Tom: No.

0:36:35 Thomas: No I. Of course. Yeah of course.

0:36:38 Tom: I know that's a very common thing. And I'm not prescribing that for anybody.

0:36:47 Ad: [Ad break 3 — ad music]

0:36:49 Thomas: It was weird the way he reacted to the monogamy thing. That was my main takeaway takeaway wasn't, I think a lot of what you were saying initially, it was the idea that she's going to make this whole video and who knows who's responsible for what, but like The way she was lecturing him in this really fucking just disgusting, like condescending way in this scene. And then the whole time I'm just thinking like, oh, well, you know, you could also just not be fucking offended if your husband looks at somebody. Like, we're going to talk about, like, what's in your control. I think that's just as much in your control as who you're attracted. I think that's literally identically in your control as who you're attracted to. It either is like, oh, well, I can't control it. I'm just jealous. Okay. Why is that something you can't control? But fundamentally, who you're attracted to, which I think is pretty as much more fundamental, in my opinion, that's something you can control. It seems weird to me.

0:37:00 Tom: Right. Yeah.

0:37:39 Tom: I mean, I think that if you're somebody who wants to be in a relationship where you, and I get that this is common. It's fine that it's common. Again, not prescriptive at all. If you want to be in a relationship where you sit having a cup of coffee and mutually look at other people, like, that's fine, you know, but what you should not do is partner up with somebody who finds that distasteful, because what you've done is you've partnered up with the wrong person. That's it.

0:38:05 Thomas: Right. So I think it's interesting, the things that you make that switch on, because if it's a second ago and I said, oh I'm partnered with a person that I'm not attracted to anymore. It sounds like you're saying, no, I have the responsibility to change that and make sure I'm attracted to them.

0:38:20 Tom: Because you've already chosen to partner with them.

0:38:21 Thomas: Right. But if I choose to partner with somebody and we end up with different preferences about looking at someone, then it's only the responsibility of somebody.

0:38:30 Tom: Well, one thing you would find out fairly swiftly. And another thing is an inevitability of aging. You would find out very swiftly that relatively quickly in the dating process, right? You would know that you'd find out that this is a value you either hold or don't hold together. And if you don't hold that value together, then you probably shouldn't continue to date. But the fact that bodies will age and change is an inevitability of all relationships in aging.

And so in order to have a functioning relationship over a course of time, either you are somebody who has found bodies of all ages, sizes, and shapes attractive, which is fine. If that's you, awesome. I think you're an outlier. Personally, I don't think that's typical. Or you are somebody who understands that that attraction is not necessarily just a physicality to physicality issue, that it is a larger, more nuanced, more complicated issue and that you're going to turn 70 someday.

And like, I still want my wife to think I'm an attractive 70 year old, and like, I don't want her to only be attracted to 25 year old lifeguards or firefighters. You know, that's like her fucking thing.

0:39:32 Eli: Tom. It really hurt my feelings just now when you said I might be 70

0:39:35 Tom: Then like, and that's why I think where for me, they're fundamentally different. One is an inevitable truth. If you're going to have a long -term relationship, your body will change. You will age. Things will grow attraction. Therefore must evolve and change. The other one is like, well, are we compatible? Well, we're, if we're not compatible, we shouldn't date. Does that make sense? Does that distinction make sense?

0:39:54 Thomas: Uh, yeah, I, I think it's, I honestly, it comes across to me as kind of special pleading. I think, uh, yeah. Cause, because if you don't have, like, if you don't have the backing devotion to monogamy that you have, this comes across as just bizarrely making distinctions for arbitrary reasons. There's nothing that's more changeable about who you're attracted to than the idea that you might be okay with your partner, like, looking at someone or not. The second thing is so much, in my opinion, more changeable than the first. Like, I can't think of any a priori reason why you would think opposite, other than, like, it's just kind of if it's your values. And I think that monogamy is a huge value to you, so I think it feels that way, but it doesn't. It just comes across totally the opposite to me. Yeah.

0:39:59 Tom: Doesn't really what's in what, why tell me why I guess I'm missing it. I'd be, and I'm not, and I'm not trying to, if you value monogamy, you should be with somebody else that values monogamy. Like, and you should select for that early, right? Right. Because selecting for it late is going to cause problems. Yeah.

0:40:48 Thomas: So Let me hold on, let me ask you this though, just to just to get us on the right page. This video is about literally looking at someone, so you could quote unquote value monogamy and still have way different versions of what that is.

0:40:55 Tom: OK. Right. Yeah. But I think you should try to get on the same page with that. Right. Like, yeah. Otherwise, you're because you have to define what cheating means and all that stuff early. Yeah.

0:41:07 Thomas: Right. Yeah, what if and what if you're a little bit off on that, do you think that you just abandon the relationship the second you're little bit, or do you maybe you move a little this way or I move a little that way in terms of what we're comfortable with, in terms of behavior? Yeah.

0:41:22 Tom: Oh, yeah, then it's a conversation about how much it bothers somebody. Right. Like everything else. If on a scale from one to ten, it bothers somebody a one, then who gives a shit? But if it's something like hurts somebody's feelings, then you're like, well, I want to do this thing, even if it hurts your feelings, is not an acceptable answer to me, right? Like, I think if I want to do something, even though it hurts your feelings, no matter what that thing is, now I know we're not compatible.

0:41:46 Eli: Someday. Okay, but um, what if what if the thing that you want to do is that your wife insists on putting the dishes in the sink, even though it means she leaves them in the sink for days at a time, and then she pours she uses the sink and it gets water over them, and you try to explain to her that when they go on the counter it does make the counter dirty, but then she has to put them inside the dishwasher before she goes to bed, and she disagrees with you, and you lose the fight on purpose because you're smart, but what if that's really important to you, do you? I need you to tell me whether or not to end my marriage right now, Tom, and I want you to know whatever you say I will do it so

0:42:19 Thomas: Yeah.

0:42:15 Tom: No, I guess I'm genuinely flabbergasted. I am confused why we're, like, would you suggest that people who don't share the same values around how they want their attention directed corrected, should still partner up? No, no, I always like you.

0:42:37 Eli: Here's What I would say and I know I use this all the time Tom so forgive me because I know you don't like me when no you don't like WHEN I use THIS MAN I KNOW YOU FUCKING HATE ME WHEN I USE THIS MAN so For me it's about like the Mike Pence rule is the really good example right which is like if it was very important to someone that I not be in a room or go to dinner with another woman it's not just a difference of opinion they are factually incorrect about the way in which culture and society should be constructed and they need to make those changes similarly for me

0:42:43 Tom: Yeah. What? Yeah,

0:42:44 Thomas: Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes.

0:43:06 Tom: Sure. And is that somebody you would choose to be partners with? Somebody who's factually incorrect about that?

0:43:16 Thomas: But why are you going to that first rather than somebody should change? Because with attraction, somebody should change. Okay.

0:43:19 Eli: Yeah

0:43:22 Tom: Oh, well, because I don't think that people should try to change other people in order to make a relationship work. I think that's a bad call.

0:43:22 Eli: Right

0:43:29 Thomas: But if you're on the other side of that, you would say you should try to change so that you don't like the Mike Pence rule, right? Right. Like if you were the other party in that.

0:43:36 Tom: No, maybe I'm not understanding your question. Right.

0:43:39 Thomas: So you shouldn't try to get someone to change to be right. OK, so I'm saying, OK, then what if you in this scenario are the other person? What if you're the Tom Pence, the Tom Pence? What if you're the Mike Pence person? Yeah. Should you try to change that view about yourself then in order to be with this other person.

0:43:42 Tom: Probably

0:43:51 Eli: And in many ways you are the tompkins even

0:43:59 Tom: Not. No.

0:43:59 Thomas: Why not?

0:44:00 Tom: Because if it's a value that you hold, I don't think that we should compromise our values to be with somebody. Well, you don't know you're, there's no ability to know you're wrong and still hold that idea at the same time.

0:44:05 Eli: If you're wrong

0:44:07 Thomas: I'm not sure how you would differentiate that between I need to change fundamentally who I'm attracted to. Like, I'm not sure how you're making that distinction because I would suggest, I think it's easy to bite that bullet. Even in a Tom world, if you have the Mike Pence rule, if that's your value out there, like if you're like, I can't even stand when my partner, I don't care about gender, whatever. My partner looks at someone else, goes to dinner with someone else. I can't stand it. I would say you should change that about yourself. Like you should work on, because that's not healthy. Okay. Yeah. That's, that's what I'm saying. That's what it's saying. Yeah. Okay. Sure.

0:44:35 Tom: Oh, yeah, I would too, because that's unhealthy. Yeah, but I, I, yeah. A hundred percent. I would suggest, but I would, I would go further. I would say you should change that about yourself, and until you do, you're not in a position to be in a relationship with somebody.

0:44:48 Eli: Oh, I think I would agree with that as well hey look at us coming

0:44:48 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's all I was saying. That's why I didn't, I felt weird. Yeah. Okay.

0:44:50 Tom: Yeah. Okay. Yeah! Right! Yeah. You're, you're NOT healthy enough to be in a relationship with somebody, right? Like, you're just going to be a bad partner.

0:44:57 Thomas: Yes. There we go.

0:44:58 Eli: Together it's what Tom texts me every morning All right, gentlemen, before we go—it was really dark in my house, so I thought of an

0:45:01 Clip: DEAR OLD DADS

0:45:15 Tom: Yeah, oh my God oh god that took me a second though that took me a sec

0:45:20 Thomas: Good times. No, Eli wants no feedback on his jokes. Zero feedback of any kind. I am neutral. Yes. You don't know if it's reverent. It might also be, I totally hate it. I'm not telling you. I would never tell you. I'll never say.

0:45:25 Eli: Idea: just sit in reverent silence after each of my jokes, might be shocked, might

0:45:37 Thomas: He'll never tell.

0:46:21 Eli: Be thoughtful, guys. We can't fight. We can't fight. We have to be nice. Yeah, so I think that's no good, uh, I, I, I think that, no, never interrupt me again. No, you, you sexy little minx. But only because you're physically attractive.

0:46:27 Thomas: Well, yeah. Oh. Oh. Not

0:46:40 Eli: What my dick point at?

0:46:34 Thomas: Good Why

0:46:46 Eli: You lose the fight on purpose because you are smart.

0:46:43 Thomas: Husbands suck bad