DOD279: When Should You Tell Your Kid They're Neurodivergent?

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad, that's my thing I know now what I can offer you that no one else can Complete and under-dependent I'm a man, I'm sensitive I need to feel loved, I need part of being a father that I enjoy

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's not telling you what it knows. I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen. Ominous indeed. Ominous indeed.

0:00:37 Thomas: Ominous. Ominous. That's very interesting. I can't wait to find out what that's about.

0:00:46 Tom: So I want to tell you guys, Haley made a delicious and delightful error for Father's Day, and I got to tell your guys about it. So for the last several years, Hale has bought me a a muffaletta sandwich from New Orleans. If you guys don't know, that is a ridiculously...

0:01:04 Thomas: Sorry, I'm racking my brain. Did Father's Day happen? And I, oh, okay. Because you know what I realized would be really funny is if Father's day happened and Lydia just, because she knows I would never call her out on it because I wouldn't know that it happened.

0:01:07 Tom: No, it's June 22nd. So this is the mistake, right?

0:01:17 Thomas: Like if she just didn't do it and then waited for me to say something, that would

0:01:22 Tom: So it's June 21st or 22nd, I forgot which one, it's Father's Day, it comes out on the 22nd of June. It's coming up in a few weeks, I don't even remember. But whichever one is the Sunday, I can't remember. I don' t have a calendar in front of me, but it's around there. But anyway, Haley, for several years, has gone like gold belly and she's had a muffletta sandwich or mufflet. But I don't know how it's pronounced, from New Orleans, shipped to me. And it's this huge, you get two of them, they're these huge two -pound, nine -inch wagon wheels of, like, just fucking delight and wonder. It's meats and cheeses and olive oil and olives, and it's just, and nobody likes it except for me, and I fucking love it.

0:01:22 Thomas: Be funny. Okay. Just making sure idiot don't even know yeah it's like you and Homer Simpson

0:02:03 Tom: Oh, it's fucking sacrilicious. It is outstanding. Well, she made a mistake, and, like. . . and it arrived last week Thursday and so like I just get this box and I open it up and it's a happy Father's Day message and in it is four pounds two of these two pound sandwiches and like I finished the set I finished it yesterday and I looked over and I'm like well now I'm on a sandwich and there's a long time between now and actual Father's day right

0:02:14 Thomas: Yeah holy oh yeah I think she technically owes you also a father's day one yeah

0:02:37 Tom: Yeah that's what I'm saying like I'm not saying like there needs to be more muffalettas in my life but I'm just saying you know, ship it in. Here we go. And then I actually, I wanted a new sports watch, like a new smart watch to track like my exercise and stuff. I know. And like I found the one that I wanted and I sent it to her as like, hey, this is if you're looking for a gift idea, this is the one I'd like. And I was like, but it's on sale. And if I buy it on my Amazon account, it has a longer extended warranty. I'll just buy it for myself. So I got all my Father's Day stuff already taken care of so hayley is off the hook and I've been father's date up like three weeks ahead of time so yeah

0:02:50 Thomas: Exactly devil shock

0:03:10 Eli: Hell yeah

0:03:17 Thomas: You wow well I've got big news that I was going to tell you which is that a moment ago maybe 10 10 minutes ago, I bit the shit out of my cheek, like just so hard. And I just had this thought, like, I don't know what I could have done differently. You know? I was like, I don'T know what, like what, I just have this thought like that happens. It's like, I guess that happened. I don' t, you know, like, do I need to practice more or something? Like I bit shit out it. Like, I was just like, what, what causes that? What you can't, what like, again, do any technique? Does someone need to check my like chewing technique or is it just just a random bullshit that happens is you just got to live with. Yeah. Yeah, no, I'm practicing plenty. I'm practising plenty. You know, like I don't, why, why now? Yeah, yeah, exactly. God, it's so frustrating I'll

0:03:25 Eli: Oh it's the worst feeling gotta practice on your cheeks more yeah probably

0:03:42 Tom: That hurts so bad too I fucking hate that I don't know why every once in a while our body is just like you chew like a thousand you chew ten thousand times a month and every once in a While your body's like I'm gonna bite part of me and you're like fucking stop it you think like Malcolm Gladwell rules like ten thousand hours you'd be we'd all be masters at this, and we wouldn't be doing this. Jesus Christ, it sucks so bad.

0:04:18 Thomas: Be gargling blood while we record just so so if anyone hears it you know yeah oh

0:04:25 Tom: What's new?

0:04:21 Eli: As usual but you know the only thing gentlemen do you know only thing worse than biting the shit out of your cheek and then being an adult so you're not allowed to cry about it why it's auto ads ruining your podcast experience like no No other possible phenomenon, including, but not limited to, the death of your loved ones. But if you want to make sure that your loved one's don't die, head on over to patreon.com forward slash dear old dads. Little unknown secret about our patrons. Your loved ones cannot die while you're a patron to our shows.

0:04:59 Eli: We have a 100 % success rate. Prove me wrong over at patreon.com forward slash dear old dads like time and face. Into your children rip into it

0:04:59 Thomas: Sick

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0:05:19 Tom: All right, so we've got an email from Bill in Indianapolis. I'm sorry you're in Indianapolis, Bill. You should leave. Recently, I completed an eight -hour appointment with the developmental medicine team, wound up with diagnoses of anxiety unspecified and autism level two for my six -year -old daughter. If you don't know, level two

0:05:36 Thomas: That's just sick you have to level two that's

0:05:41 Tom: Means that she will probably need some support and accommodations most days of her life to be her best self, but living an otherwise normal life is very likely. In other words, it probably won't affect what she can do in life, but will affect how she lives her life. I was the one who wanted to pursue this evaluation. I've had my suspicions for almost three years now, and yet now I find myself at a bit of a loss us as to how to proceed. My primary motivation for pursuing this evaluation was to prevent suffering for her. I was diagnosed with ADHD at 41. I realized then that a very large percentage of my childhood challenges were caused by not knowing that my brain worked differently than most. Also, a family friend was diagnosed on the autism spectrum at 38 and had a similar feeling. I want my child to grow knowing that her brain might be different, but there's nothing wrong with being different. I want her to be able to confidently ask for what she needs from others to succeed and to not feel like she has to pretend to be like other people. So that brings me to my main question for discussion. When and how do you tell your child they are neurodivergent? I want her to know from her family, but I don't want to tell her too soon. Do you think this might be a conversation that we have to have multiple times at different developmental levels as she grows up? I've been an elementary teacher in an inclusion room for nearly 20 years, and I've had dozens of versions of these conversations with parents and students, but this is a whole different matter, or at least

0:05:54 Thomas: Awesome braggy

0:07:00 Tom: It feels like it is. So I think this is a very interesting and pertinent question. And I think the writer of the email kind of hit the nail on the head in their own question. Like, do you think they're going to have to have some version of this conversation multiple times? I 100 % guarantee that you will need to have different versions of this conversation as your child grows through developmental stages of their life. I don't want to pretend a familiarity with autism level two. I don't really know with any specificity what that means in practice. Is he at level two? Is that? Okay.

0:07:32 Eli: Maybe if you hung out with max sometimes just give him a call occasionally yeah two or three I never remember which one he is

0:07:38 Thomas: Yeah I truly didn't know there were levels I wasn't sure if that was a joke no

0:07:42 Eli: Yeah there are there you it's like uh it's Like an rpg

0:07:42 Thomas: I'm just kidding yeah how do I level

0:07:46 Tom: All four of the kids in my household are neurodivergent. And I think there's like not one static answer for this question at all. Like, I don' t think there' s that. Well, this is how you tell them they' re neurod divergent. It' s at this point, at this time. I think a lot of it depends on what neurodiffergencies they have, have how those neurodivergencies impact their lives their accommodations what they need what you have to like deliver for them how they're going to interact specifically in the school environment in ways that you know if they don't know about maybe otherizing and there's of course going to be multiple conversations because the kids are going to understand things differently as they age and there'S going to BE different requirements sort of for those conversations and how you want to frame them as they grow up but that's our show Yep.

0:08:30 Thomas: Up yeah fucking

0:08:30 Eli: And that's so here's the one of the things that I will say and this is why I was interested in talking about this so first of all agree with everything that tom just said we already talked to max about it and we've talked to him about it since he was very very, very young. Right now, because of his level of maturity, we talk to him about his magic brain because his brain will be really good at some things and not so good at others. And so when we contextualize things that he is struggling with or that we suspect will be hard for him, we often talk about it in terms of his magic. And he's like, I don't know, I'm not sure I'm magic brain. And So that's sort of all he needs to understand right now is that some things are easy for him and some things Are hard for Him. What we will probably do at some point in his his life is move that idea of the magic brain over to talking about that. It is a diagnosis that it is a medical condition, but we'll do that when it is right for him. The reason why I wanted to talk about this topic is a lot of the books for kids. Cause of course I looked into books the minute we got Max diagnosed, I read books for parents.

0:09:33 Eli: And then as he got older, I was like, let's get a book for Max. And what's really important for me to emphasize, and this is my journey, it might not be yours, all the books I read that were meant for kids fell into one of two categories. Either they were an adult talking about their lived experience in a very different time and in a Very Different Way Than My Son Will Have That Experience, which I thought was inappropriate. Appropriate. There are a lot of adults who feel like, I'm trying to think of what a proper way to put this is. You know how there are people out there who think that being cynical or pessimistic somehow makes them more honest, more real,

0:09:33 Thomas: Nerd

0:10:18 Eli: But that when that comes to kids, it's actually, it can be really toxic. I often think about this in terms of like climate change. You'll hear adults, especially in the parenting space, who are like, I'm not going to beat around the bush. I'm going to tell my kids they'll be fighting for water in five years. And I'm like, well, you're both wrong and wildly abusive when you say that because you're wrong and you don't care that you're wrong, but you're also doing a thing that hurts your child with your wrongness, right? Similarly, a lot of the autism books that I read talked about lived experiences that I'm sure that person experienced. I'm not saying they're making it up, but they will not be my son's experience. And to generally project them onto the autistic experience was not helpful. The second one, and this I found is really prevalent in like children's book category, right? Which is like things that are made for kids to read about themselves as opposed to like my teen book of autism, right? The things that Are like really, really young facing tend to be the Tumblrized version of autism. And look, don't get me wrong. Again, I love the mainstreaming of the autistic experience. I think it is so wonderful. I think It's so incredible. But when my son is learning about his medical condition and I am reading things that like are not necessarily scientifically grounded about the autistic experience, that makes me very uncomfortable, right? I need someone who is going to talk to my son about his autism the way I would want about his diabetes and so that to me was really important so I would say there is a lot of really well -intentioned empathy facing work out there aimed to teach kids about the experience of autism but be careful because that is often an adult that that not often that can sometimes be an adult who is stuck in their own narrative and that is not very useful

0:12:21 Thomas: So we've kind of touched on arlo's brain being different and when certain things come up I've said that before and I think it's been okay the challenge I'm having lately is that I think think phoebe's brain is different but hers manifests in her being just an asshole and so it's like it's hard it's when arlo does something when it'slike you know something that's a little more like uh I don't know the routine thing or the something that'S like oh okay well phoebes wondering why he'S doing something it'S like well you know arlo's that'S arlo'S brain I know this guy's you know a certain type of brain it'S hard when phoebee'S just being an asshole to be like Like, well, that's, I don't know what that is. I think it might be something, but it's been really hard because she gets so angry so quickly at stuff for not being right to the point where we are finally, we're going to like try to pursue and see if there's something going on there. But that takes forever, of course. So that's been a weird one because like, I can't remember exactly what happened, but one time it was essentially, well you know, Arlo's brain, like they have these little little fights and I'm trying to explain like Arlo has a certain way he has to get through fights, you know, like he can't, I think I've explained it before on here, but he can'T get over stuff right now. He has to inflict his pound of flesh or whatever it is to get his pound of flesh. Like if he feels wrong, he canít get over that. And which sucks. Cause I mean, you canít really live that way. Canít really always like, okay, you get a free, like punch at somebody. If youíve been wronged, it doesnít really work as you grow older. And so, you you know, that's been, yeah, yeah. It kind of probably should probably should, you know what Arlo's right. Actually, maybe, maybe Arlo is right. But with Phoebe, it's like, she's been yelling. She gets so aggressive. I found myself lately when I'm talking to Arlo about it. Cause he's having problems with it. And I'm trying to be like, yeah you know that's that's Phoebe's that's we're working on it, you Know, and I don't know, I don' know what to say. Cause it's so much more like harm causing like hers causes more harm to other people, whatever she's going through than Arlo does and so it feels almost unfair you know in a way to

0:14:03 Tom: Which is bullshit, by the way. I just want to say like absolute bullshit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

0:14:37 Thomas: Be like explaining it away I don't know it's really tricky

0:14:40 Tom: I'm going to seize on the last thing you said, like the explaining it away part. You know, that's something that like with the four that we've got.

0:14:46 Thomas: That was bad phrasing but yeah go ahead

0:14:48 Tom: No, no, no. But I think it's important, though, because I do think it's a it's it's worry that we have always had. And I think this is one of those things, too, that I want to be careful about my phrasing here, here, because while all four of the kids in our house are definitely diagnosed and neurodivergent and been to all the neuropsych specialists and all that stuff. But they're all to different levels, but they're able to function in the world with relatively minimal accommodations. So what I'm about to say may not work for everybody. I don't want this to be necessarily prescriptive, no matter what your neurod divergence is. And if I don'T say that, That's somebody who's going to beat me up about it. But we're very cautious here to make sure that the kids understand that while, yes, they have these issues or these medical conditions, that the world and everything else, they're functioning at a place where they're going to go out into the world. They're going be expected to be there on time. They're expected to kind and polite. None of the expectations of the world are going to change for them. And this is not an excuse. What this is is a reality that they're gonna face. Some things are going to be harder for them as a result of these realities. And what tools can we put into place to help you as you get older and move into different parts of your life? What tools can we help you build for yourself that you can rely on when you move into a world that will not care that you are neurodivergent? Now, again, this is for people who, you know, they will all be able to live independently. There's different levels

0:16:18 Tom: Of all of this. I want to be very clear about that.

0:16:21 Thomas: They're stuck on level one get

0:16:21 Tom: Otherwise, I'll get yelled at. But like yeah right yeah but you know for us we never offer it as a well yeah I mean yeah but you've got you know this or that or the like we never off for that back it's always like all right well you know if we're struggling what tools do we need like I'll give you an example aislan likes to do her homework not in her bedroom she does not want to do your homework in her her bedroom and donovan to some degree too they like to do their homework in this sort of not bedroom space the bedroom is too full of their comfort items their distractions etc aism was trying to do her homework in the kitchen but the kitchen is right by where amon's room is and again that had different you had all kinds of distractions people can come and go from the kitchen so we set up a separate homework space in our upstairs loft we bought a desk we bought out a separate space. We created a space and created a zone that she could have where she could have some quiet that was not in her room. So it's sort of like building out some accommodations that are reasonable, but it was never like, well, let's talk about your ADHD. For us, we've not found that to be a useful first framing.

0:16:24 Thomas: Good yeah yeah interesting

0:17:35 Tom: The first framing has always been, okay, well if you're distracted, that's fine. Let's work on dealing with the distraction. Let'S work on finding that solution let's work on coming to something that like fills your needs and meets where you're at and like oh yeah every couple of weeks or whatever you're going to have an appointment or every couple of months rather you're gonna have an apartment to get your medication filled and that's just kind of an aside and everything else is tool building everything else's tool building for all of the kids yeah

0:18:03 Eli: Think that's a very healthy way to think about accommodation because accommodation is a very adult conversation to have. And so if what you do is create accommodations, right, in a natural setting to help someone develop tools, then what they learn is the self-confidence to know that their needs need to be met. As an adult, they go, hey, because of my needs, I need someone I need someone to set up spaces for me. I know I need separate spaces. I need, I know I need to do those things. When you frame them as tools when they're young, later, when you have to have the conversation about making those accommodations for yourself as an adult, they think of them as tool to help themselves rather than things that they need to be presented with.

0:18:51 Thomas: I was I was wondering what he was gonna say say on that because that that almost felt like avoidant to me like it sort of felt like are you like I guess what are you worried about is the worry that they're going to use it as a crutch or

0:19:02 Tom: A hundred percent I give you a practical example so you know amen's mom and I don't agree on this topic and amen came to me a year ago

0:19:04 Thomas: Something thomas smith no I'm just kidding okay well you can't use the worst person in the world to poison the well holy

0:19:14 Tom: No no yeah Yeah, Amon came to us full time a year ago and his it's been a year. It's been it's bene. Yeah.

0:19:20 Thomas: Fucking shit it's been a year since that jesus christ that's right Right. Oh, man.

0:19:24 Tom: May to May, May to may. Yeah, yeah. May of last year was a great year for Tom Curry. I broke my neck. The kids came in. It was like it was all like the kids were trying to graduate high school is fucking crazy. So it was nuts. It's like 30 days of just wildness. But like Eamon had an attitude where like, oh, well, I can't do that because I have X or I can'T, you know,

0:19:31 Thomas: Yeah. I remember it because it was like, oh, yeah, that's right. Oh man. Oh

0:19:49 Tom: That's going to be too hard for me because I HAVE this or yeah.

0:19:51 Thomas: Yeah. No, you don't want that.

0:19:53 Tom: And that sort of thing was reinforced all the time. Right. Like, oh. You know, hey, buddy, like because you've got, you KNOW, this thing going on, this is going to BE a struggle for you. So this became a definition that he held for himself.

0:20:07 Thomas: Yeah, no. Okay. Yeah yeah.

0:20:07 Tom: And as a result, he wasn't pushing himself. He wasn't trying as hard. He is afraid to try things that, like, over the course of the last year, he's moved that needle substantially on.

0:20:18 Thomas: Could there be a concern the other way potentially if it's always framed, for example, that of like, Oh, I'm going to be distracted. I need such and such. And it might depend on age too, but if they're younger, especially then do we have a risk that like, if they are in a different setting and they tell someone that someone's gonna be like oh well I don't give a shit man you're gonna be distracted just don't get distracted like fucking that's easy just don's you know what I mean like is there a line there

0:20:44 Tom: Yeah, I hear what you're saying for sure. Like, because this is also, this also goes hand in hand, or should, with making sure that you have a formal diagnosis that you can take to the school and have accommodations in place. So the kids are very aware that they have, no, right, but at the same time, it's not amplifying it. It's not making it an excuse for why you can't do something or why. Yeah.

0:20:57 Thomas: Yeah so it's not like you're pretending they don't have stuff or anything yeah yeah yeah that makes sense that makes sense

0:21:09 Eli: Right. Jew.

0:21:09 Tom: And so we always frame everything first in terms of like, all right, well, how do we get you to, and I'm going to use a term, I'm sorry. How do we gets you to normal first? Like a normal behavior or normal?

0:21:18 Thomas: Yeah I was just waiting for you like I was

0:21:20 Eli: Look,

0:21:21 Tom: No, oh God. And I know that's not the right term. So forgive me, but I think you guys understand what I'm trying to drive at. How did we get to something normative first?

0:21:29 Eli: You want accommodation to be invisible, right?

0:21:31 Tom: Yes.

0:21:31 Eli: Whenever possible for everybody involved, you won't accommodation to being visible, right. The answer for glasses is not before you put glasses on a kid's face to go, Hey, just so you know, you'll never see the board. I'm sorry, Jimmy, you will never see that board. There are lots of souls in this world. Lots of bright shining candles that God wants to see the board and you ain't one of them. I'm so stuck.

0:21:53 Eli: No, you go, Hey man, if you want to see The Board, you got to put these on your fucking face. All right. You put these On Your Face. And then if you forget to wear them, you're not going to be able to see THE BOARD. And whose fault is that? Yours. Put your fucking glasses on your face, right? People wear glasses. We want to make them unobtrusive, right? And you don't, when you take your glasses out, go, I am putting on my glasses so I can see THE Board, right exactly.

0:22:10 Thomas: Yeah this is what I had to do with Lydia when she realized she needed glasses because she never had needed glasses before so we'd go to stuff and she'd be like oh I can't see like oh man if only you had things that were designed to go on your face that definitely help you see yeah

0:22:15 Eli: Yeah. Yeah, you got to fucking put your glasses on your fucking face.

0:22:27 Eli: Yeah, there's a really good and it's in the Ruby workbook, which I adore, even though it's like a very clinical tool. One of the ways that they talk about it is like we are shifting the mindset from people in wheelchairs should get up and walk to people in wheelchair's need to understand that wheelchaires are how they travel from one place to another. Other.

0:22:50 Eli: So it is not, let's figure out how you can walk, right? Because some of our kids will not walk, if you have a kid who's a wheelchair user because of a permanent disability, they're never going to walk. They will, however, get from one place to another. And it's really important we acknowledge that they can get from 1 place to 1 other as well, if not better than their peers, if they use their wheelchair. And so it's about finding that way. And again, I know normalcy is sort of a taboo term for a lot of reasons, but it's about finding the way in which you traverse the space.

0:23:25 Tom: Yeah. Thank you. Because I don't like that word normal. I just couldn't think of a better word off the cuff. So I don t mean that to be, you know, but yeah, I think also like, especially in this case, like for the reader, I also think like, especially when kids are six, six is so young. Six is such a young age for the writer of the email here. Six as a little guy. Personally, I would avoid regularly relying on medicalized language because I don't think that like medicalized language is particularly a useful framework for somebody in first grade or kindergarten. I think again, it's like, like all right well hey bud like you might need a little more help staying focused so here's what we're going to do to help you stay focused we're gonna give you some things to fidget with and you know I've talked to your teacher and your teacher's gonna let you walk out in the hallway and pace a little bit back and forth you know and come back into the classroom sometimes you don't even have to use the words accommodation and like you know diagnosis and I think kids are too little at

0:23:36 Thomas: I had it out he said not Arsler like several times I was just like Like, dude, yeah.

0:24:31 Tom: That age but then as they get older I think you can begin to have that conversation in ways that like like, hey, you know, there's a reason why you've got a little bit of extra class time to take your test. And that's because you've Got ADHD. And all that means is that we're going to need to put some different tools in your toolbox and work on those tools together to make sure that you're successful. Oh, great. Awesome. I'm very passionate about how these things are framed in terms of like, and again, this assumes a certain level where I know that not everybody is going to have that kind of there are there are different people at different places. But with my kids in my house, This has been a successful way to get them to sort of frame things. And we're trying to actively reframe Amon's experience so that he feels more empowered rather than less, because he's felt way less empowered over the course of time because he has been told a narrative about himself that is based on the can't narrative. The can't and too hard narrative has been really a crutch that he gets to rely on in order to not try. And since we've been sort of gently, gently, gentle working against that, he's improved dramatically in a lot of really important ways.

0:25:47 Thomas: I think coming from that context, I see kind of why you were framing it the way you were. To me, it sounded a little weird, just like apropos of nothing, that it felt like you were worried about something. But no, I get that. I do think some people do this, but especially with kids, like you never want to preempt anything they're doing by stopping them and being like, maybe you can't do this because of how you, you know, like always give them a crack at it. They're kids, let them try whatever. Whatever. And I think that's really, really unhealthy.

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0:26:21 Thomas: I meant to send this to you guys because it was so sweet. Speaking of kind of the challenges that the kids have, but Arlo's teacher is just the fucking best. I can't remember if I've mentioned it, but when we went in for the parent -teacher conference thing, I guess earlier in the year, she was just like in love with him. She was like, oh, he's the beast. I love him so much. I think possibly it could be, you know, like neurodivergence, recognizing neurod divergence a little bit. Like it seems like Like maybe there's some commonality there. Like she just seems to really identify with him. But the other day he was supposed to bring money as in, you know, we were supposed to give him money, which we actually did for a field trip thing. But we got this text. She said, hi, Arlo could not find his money in his backpack and he shut down. He put his hoodie over his face and was pulling his eyelids down, trying not to cry. I asked him to get his backpack. And I would help him look, but he wouldn't. I know with Arlo that continuing to push doesn't help things. I gave him a little side hug and told him it was okay. He can bring it on Monday. He is so hard on himself when he makes a mistake or things aren't what he expects. And then Lydia responded. I think the problem is that he got it in his mind that if one kid forgot money, then the party wouldn't happen. Like, you know, like every which

0:27:32 Thomas: Makes like it was logical thought. It's like everyone has to bring X dollars. And he probably thought, well, then that means it probably costs X times the number of kids. And if anyone forgets, that means you probably can't do it. I imagine is what he was thinking. Turns out like the money was in there. He just couldn't find it. I don't know. Somebody tell me, Eli, somebody who knows more about this. Is there something about neurodivergence that makes your kid the worst at finding things ever?

0:27:32 Tom: Oh no poor

0:27:58 Eli: Yep.

0:27:58 Thomas: Arlo cannot fucking find anything. It's the weirdest thing. And it's even stuff he cares about. Like sometimes it's like, oh, he's, you know, he doesn't care. He's not putting in effort. Sometimes it's like his video games. And I know he wants to find his switch or whatever. And It'll be like right in in front of his face and I'm just like dude go look

0:28:15 Eli: The phenomenon is called certainty of mind. So when a non -neurodivergent person is looking for something, they go, I don't know where that is. Right? And so they look in the kitchen and they look around and they go I don' t see it in the k itchen, so I don don't think it's here but I could be wrong and then they go on to the next place so if they missed the keys they were looking for they might come back later and look for those keys again but a neurodivergent person because they are focusing their emotional intention on something they have rooted an emotion to the fact that they looked in the kitchen if you have ever asked a neurod divergent person to look in a place that you have already looked you will notice that they don't go, oh, no, I already looked there. They go, I looked there, right?

0:28:56 Eli: Is because they have made an emotional decision about what they did. So the reason why finding things and looking for things is so much harder for people who are neurodivergent is because they've sort of ticked an emotional box, yeah? One of the big things that comes up is one of the fascinating things about people with neurod divergence is how hard did you try? Are you aware of this or any of the research on this?

0:28:56 Thomas: Huh

0:28:56 Tom: Guy yeah

0:29:22 Eli: If you ask people on the ADD, ADHD, or autism spectrum how hard they tried on a thing, no matter how hard the demonstrably tried, they will tell you they tried the maximum amount of hard.

0:29:18 Thomas: I'm not sure

0:29:36 Eli: They put their whole heart into it. They gave it 110%. Oh my gosh, I tried. I worked for 10 hours. They even overestimate the amount of time they spend on something.

0:29:36 Thomas: Oh really what what what kinds of things because I with adhd I'm always like fuck I didn't I'll be honest I didn's try that that's usually my thing huh

0:29:50 Tom: Let

0:29:51 Eli: That's probably a learned behavior, but the natural inclination is to say, no, I tried really hard or I did my best. They will very often make up an excuse to tell you why a thing didn't happen. But in terms of their effort, it is incredibly rare for a neurodivergent person to go, I did not try very hard on this thing, right?

0:29:59 Thomas: That

0:30:13 Eli: They will say, know what happened was X, right. And so that's part of the reason why finding things is so hard is that they have made these very, very emotional emotional connections to their actions.

0:30:24 Thomas: Is so weird so wait why why is that why do you think they report that?

0:30:27 Eli: So it's about emotional attention, right? So the core of autism and ADHD, and obviously there's a lot going on. So, and give your baby a whole bottle of Tylenol. I'm not a pediatrician or a doctor and all that stuff. So the core of this, and I know I talk about this all the time, is emotional attention. It's the balance of emotional attention. And so most people have relatively little emotions associated with where their attention is at any given moment. And ADD, ADHD, and autistic people tend to develop unhealthy connections between how they feel emotionally about where their attention is.

0:30:37 Thomas: Done and done. Hmm.

0:31:06 Eli: So the classic example of this is ADD people will be 20 minutes late because up until the moment they are late, the thing that they are doing is important. It has their emotional focus. And then when they are are late, the amount of sorry they are for being late is far and above what a neurotypical person will feel. Similarly, how someone feels when they are looking for something that they have lost, right? How much attention they put on the thing that they are Looking for when they are lost is very different than how they will feel once they believe it to be lost. Because in their head, a good metaphor for it is like, I think a neurodivergent person probably probably feels after looking for 10 minutes for something the way that a neurotypical person might feel after looking For an hour.

0:31:56 Thomas: Oh God. Arlo can't look for more than 3 .5 seconds for something. So yeah.

0:32:02 Eli: Oh, all right. Yeah. Mm hmm.

0:32:02 Thomas: He can't look at all.

0:32:04 Tom: Me jump in real quick because I'm curious about something one thing that like just to kind of maybe yes and or tangent off of that a little bit like a lot of the folks in my house have adhd like it's just a fucking adhd factory over here it's it's it's a lot and I've done just like a huge amount of reading to try to understand the people in my my home that I love so much better based on that. Like I've read like a lot, a lot of stuff. And like one thing that I've noticed is like people who have had ADHD and they're adults now, your example, I'm going to seize on that, like they've been late and their whole lives being late, they have been beat up constantly over and over and Over and Over again for being late. They've gotten clocked over the head a thousand times for how rude it is and disrespectful of of other people's time and they're late and late and you're late again and at some point for at least some subset of people it seems not insignificant like there seems to be kind of like two paths that this seems to travel one is this sort of like overly aggressive self -flagellation that you're kind of describing and then the other one is just like well fuck it I'm just late

0:33:12 Tom: And that's just it but I feel like a lot of that comes from the way that they've been treated their whole lives for being late like it's not only it's necessarily inborn or innate to the fact of being adhd I think a lot of that is a social response to being late because like I've noticed that for sure with hayley is that like hayley has and she's not really late anymore because like we've worked out tools together to where her lateness is pretty much a non -factor But for a lot of her life, it was a factor. And like, you know, she's described to me like how some people really like weaponize that against her for like a long time.

0:33:53 Tom: And, like, if you don't weaponize it against people, then their ability to self -forgive goes way up. Like if I'm late I don't really feel too bad about it because I'm probably not late very often so it's like oh okay well I just had you know I ran late like it's fine people run late I don't beat myself up about it porque I don' t have 25 years of people beating me up about it so I think it's a complex issue I guess is what I'm saying

0:34:19 Thomas: Only beat myself up about it because of Eli. Eli is the only person I know who cares deeply. So I'm never... I do my best to not be too late for Eli.

0:34:23 Eli: Hey, wow, you're doing a bad job.

0:34:31 Thomas: Yeah. I'm doing an incredible job.

0:34:33 Tom: So I got him out because like I'm and I'm not trying I'm anything I guess I'm just like adding like my own our own home experience here like yeah

0:34:41 Eli: No, no, I know. I think you're I think you're spot on. And I think that's a big part of it as well. Right? Like so much of I think how we think of ADD people or neurodivergent people responding to things, right, is response to being treated badly. Again, like one of the things that I have noticed about my son, because he lives in a much, much kinder, better world, is that a lot of the thing that a neurodivegent kid like Max is supposed to have, he does not because most of those things are responses to to having a tough time, right? Like a big thing they talk about is like socialization and how tricky socialization is, how tough it is. And like Max naturally struggles with socialization. He is not a very good socializer. He tends to, you know, yell the game he is playing at his cohort. But because he lives in a much kinder world, he has tons of friends, right.

0:35:38 Eli: We just had his birthday party. And tons of his friends showed up. A lot of them are my friends who are parent friends of our family. A Lot of them Are kids from school who have learned that if you want a kinder, gentler world, you show up to people's birthday party when you want. But like the notion that just generally speaking, autistic kids won't have friends, which is something that a lot of those books tell you to lay at the feet of your neurodivergent child.

0:36:02 Thomas: I was fucking worried, dude. I was really worried.

0:36:05 Eli: Yeah, absolutely. But again, they tell you To talk to your kid and be like, Hey, just so you know, people aren't going gonna fucking like you because you fucking suck right like there's a there is an implication that you need to tell kids that these are their fate as opposed to hey you're gonna have a tendency for x and so this is how we adjust around those things

0:36:24 Tom: For me I also think that it's important rather than to think like hey you will have a tendency to do this and I'm not I'm being a little nitpicky I don't mean to be but like I also thing it's to wait for that tendency to appear rather than take the diagnosis and I have seen so much of this online, where people will take the diagnosis, decide what that diagnosis means, and then they will inform somebody about who they will become as a result of that. You will have a tendency to be like this. No. If that tendency appears, that's okay. We will simply find tools to help move through that tendency, right? Because almost nobody exhibits every symptom of everything that they might have. These are fairly clumsy labels. Right. And these are fairly newish labels. And they're labels that describe a constellation of behaviors and symptoms, et cetera. And like there is a I think a very unfortunate tendency to say, OK, I've got the diagnosis. I've got the label. Label means X. I'm going to tell you what you will become. And it's not meant that way, but I think for young people who are hearing a message from the most important and influential voice in their whole life

0:37:41 Tom: That they trust more than anyone ever that literally keeps them alive every day, when we deliver messages like that to kids, it is prescriptive. Even though we might mean for it to be descriptive or we might mean for to be you know supportive it can be read as prescriptive and that's something that that I am very conscious and concerned and worried about just based on my own experiences with my kids and so I do think that that's an important thing I wanted to grab a hold of I

0:38:14 Thomas: It makes sense in theory. I haven't come across that. I guess it just depends on if you know what your experience is, but I think that it's hard to keep up with these kids. I can't imagine being like here. I'm going to tell you the your future like it's hard to even keep up with what's going on with them, but I wanted to say that I can't remember how much I've talked about with Phoebe uh because honestly some of it was too heartbreaking but um earlier in the year she was having real problems with friends uh and it was tough because so some friends said a friend said she didn't want to be her friend anymore because Phoebe's too mean um that was really hard yeah I don't remember if I talked about on the show or not because it was just like really sad um and then it's been kind of off and on Phoebe was really sad she didn't she didn't know why and it was hard because I kind of man now I'm forgetting if this was just a us conversation of the show but basically it was when two parents were oh yeah I did talk about that that the parental intervention that kind of happened and uh you know I kind of had to tell lydia that like we maybe should listen to them because it was the day that phoebe had just like like hit lydia like been really shitty and I was like maybe we should believe that it's possible phoebes being a dick to her friends like after she just like beat you to death earlier like maybe it's possible um but what turned out to what was interesting is so it's been a struggle she's been on and off again with these friends and there's a friend she really likes and cares about who and it's always funny in these groups how there will be like the different personalities you know like phoebe's obviously going to be one of the really strong personalities and then which is always what I was told too because it's like I get it uh so when you're a kid it's like it's hard to control some of those impulses when you want to like you know do us kind of do what you want and be in charge I get it um but then she has a little friend who's like the person who's always kind of the in -between you know and those kids are always so sweet and she would kind of swing back and forth and there was this other friend that would kind of influence that middle friend you know either way and so there'd be this constant drama of like well they're both mad at Phoebe today and blah blah blah and then what was so funny was like we were so worried about Phoebe and what you know is she gonna she was so sad and like what's gonna happen and then one day we got a message from her teacher being like you know what you shouldn't worry so much because actually that other friend is just toxic and we're like oh thank god thank god because it did seem like the other friend yeah I mean she was like don't tell she was literally like don's tell anyone I said this but that girl is actually toxic and it was a relief because I know Phoebe has her issues, but it just felt like the other girl was kind of not being fair. You know, like it felt like it was always a thing. Like there was always drama around that girl too, like independent of Phoebe. I was like, man, I guess it's just bad luck. And so that was really nice. But I also wanted to mention like kind of that's the backdrop for something the other day that Phoebe said that was so, man. I found it so heartbreaking and it relates to what you said, you know, when you're talking about Haley and how people feel about being late and all that. Like, I just, I really think there's a thing with ADHD, I don't know about autism, can't really speak to it, but where it's like, you know, you are, I think a lot of people with ADHD are used to, you know, not being great friends and therefore having people be pissed at them because it's hard to be, it's harder to be a good friend when you have ADHD. It's just like really hard to do. It's harder.

0:38:48 Tom: Remember this yeah imagine being labeled toxic at like nine or whatever. Yeah. Right. Yeah,

0:41:37 Thomas: So when that friend, Phoebe mentioned that she was doing stuff with that one friend who like disowned her. This is actually a different friend than the other two. It doesn't matter, but whatever. And I was like, oh, you're, are you playing with her again? And for a while she would kind of mention her. I'd be like, Oh, is she, is he your friend again? And V would be like well, no, she still says she's not my friend. I was, like, God damn it.

0:41:57 Thomas: It's kind of like she was still, but I guess it's almost like a, like a rebound, like an on again, off again relationship where it's like, ah, saw my ex again, but you know, we're not getting back together. Like it felt kind of, like that sort of thing, you know? And then the other day she's like, yeah, we are friends again. I, was like that's so amazing. That's awesome. And, I can't remember if it was me or lydia one of us asked her like so do you um like are you okay with the fact that she kind of just like stopped being your friend are you upset you know I was wondering is there residual hurt feelings kind of thing was what I I think we're getting getting at and it was so it was so heartbreaking and sweet in a way because she's like oh no I was like really so you know you aren't like upset that she Kind of didn't want to be your friend and I was really just trying to ask in like the most neutral term she's Like no and then she was like I don't think anyone should ever stop being anyone's friend. And I was like, I was like, it was, I can't even explain like the, the sort of the feeling behind it too. I could just, I could see in her little face that like she was speaking from the experience of like a real heartbreak, you know? And it was like so sad and just that, that like, she just kind of naturally concluded like I just, people shouldn't stop being everyone's friend and she didn't want to stop being anyone's friend. And and the best thing about Phoebe that I meant to say about all this was during the whole thing, no matter what happened, she only ever had nice things to say about her friends, like even the friend that's the toxic one. She only has nice things to say, like really nice thing, not in a fake way either. She'd be like, oh, she's really cool. She's smart and she's whatever. And it just breaks my heart even more because clearly, like I think because of whatever's going on with Phoebe, she is accidentally making people upset, you know, truly accidentally. She is not trying to she doesn't have a mean bone in her body but she accidentally hurts people and then they don't want to be her friend and it just was so heartbreaking because this was exactly a result of that which was her saying like hey every everybody should be everybody's friend everybody should be forgiving everybody you know because like she she needs that and it was just like it was so uh it was so tugged at the heartstrings but I really think like it's just complicated dealing with little kids especially girls because

0:44:10 Thomas: I feel like there's just more that goes on there like ah man it's a challenge

0:44:19 Ad: [Ad break 3 — ad music]

0:44:21 Tom: The last thing that I would offer to whatever neurodivergency like you have with your kids, like the the most important thing I think genuinely is to become like as much as is possible, like become kind of an expert, not just on the neurodivergency like go out read resources get information but then like take that information and decide you're going to become an expert on that kid specifically and the way that those two things interact with each other the books and the magazines and the resources and the online all that stuff is great as a framework but like I think the important directionality is don't try to fit the kid into the framework but try to use the framework as a way to understand the specific individual that is your kid a lot of this was with hayley but like when hayley and I moved in together I didn't know anything really about adhd I knew a bunch of stuff from like culture and all of it was wrong like all that stuff is bad and wrong and like it all had to get thrown out and I had to learn a whole bunch of staff in order for me not to maybe like take take something personally that wasn't meant personally or to understand how she uses time and views time. There's so many things that by understanding this stuff, what I was able to do is say, oh, okay, well, I understand this person I love so much better.

0:45:44 Tom: And I think that directionality is sometimes missed. And I think it's the most important directionality.

0:45:48 Eli: And also just again one more reminder that the best way to get attention on the internet is to say the most extreme thing and the best way to be listened to is to go people who you think will be empathetic right and so like to use the example of like sleep training right when you google sleep training there are really well -intentioned people online who have done a bad job doing their research and have dedicated a tremendous amount of their time and effort to saying that sleep training is abuse. Now they're just wrong, right? They're just incorrect. They did the math wrong. They thought Google made them smart enough to make an informed decision where experts were quote unquote wrong, and so when you have a neurodivergent kid, there will be lots of people who will tell you there are things that you must do, and that if you don't do those things, you're abusing your kid, you're being cruel to your kid. They do not know how to raise your kid They do not know what your kid needs. Assuming that you are a good parent and you are because you're you want to do the right thing and you're and you listen to the show,

0:46:58 Thomas: You're listening to the show yeah

0:47:01 Eli: Which is the number one rate. You will know as well, if not better than the Internet, what your kids needs and what your children's limitations are. All right, gentlemen, before we go, I want to recommend that you buy shares in TNT companies as soon as possible because their stocks are booming.

0:47:11 Clip: DEAR OLD DAD

0:47:30 Thomas: Not your best work because it makes you so upset that's You take the good with the bad the last like five I've been like that's my favorite joke ever that fucking ruled All feedback you don't like any I think you just don't Like me.

0:47:31 Eli: I'll never understand that part of the show. It does. It does all I do is write good jokes and once a week twice a week. It's like nah that one wasn't good that you wrote. I don't like that. I hate that one too. I hate all I hate it when you like it and I hate it when I hate you. When you don't. Like it. Yeah.

0:48:01 Thomas: I think that's really what's happening here I don't know what I could have done differently

0:49:02 Tom: That's our show