DOD277: This Husband's In the Doghouse

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad, that's my thing I know now what I can offer you that no one else can Complete and under-dependent I'm a man, I'm sensitive I need to feel loved, I need part of being a father that I enjoy

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's barking up the wrong tree. I'm Tom Curry. I am joined, as always, by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:38 Eli: Hello!

0:00:39 Thomas: Hey, just asking, is Mother's Day coming up again, or, okay. Yeah, that's what I thought last week. Uh, yeah, that what they say.

0:00:43 Tom: No, uh, yes, in a year. And so, here's the thing that maybe, maybe you need to understand. Yeah. I just need to be really sure that you know, this is a yearly thing. This will, every year... Yeah. A yearly anniversary. Outrageous. How

0:01:18 Thomas: Well that's the same date every year though yeah

0:01:20 Tom: Could I know such a thing? It's not like I have the entire Internet in my pocket.

0:01:23 Thomas: Yeah, no, no. In my mind, every, this is not really a joke. Every single holiday that isn't nailed down is whenever. Like if it's not, if it was not Christmas, I don't even know about Thanksgiving actually. Now I say it out loud. I'm not sure when that is. It's the later November. It's usually in the twenties I think. And if it's not a new year, new year's, I can get New Year's that's one, but I don't have to get anybody anything for that oh

0:01:24 Eli: I love the idea that it's the lunar calendar that throws Thomas off. Faggin.

0:01:53 Eli: Ooh, that might be a fun one is which holidays does Thomas think are real? As we just go through a list of common American.

0:01:57 Thomas: My god yeah that and which I I it's just it does not enter my brain Lydia Hill say stuff like well and of course that's like around Labor Day I'm like that doesn't tell me anything no information that tells me not December maybe not January I think right no

0:02:16 Eli: Oh, Labor Day is just surprise your kids are home for me. That's what it is.

0:02:20 Thomas: Yeah that's okay that's every holiday for

0:02:23 Eli: Yeah. Is I'm just sitting there. I've got a plan for the day. And then my son turns to me and he's like, hey, just so you know, it's me and fucking you today. And I'm like, what? And he's like, don't you support unions? And I am like, not like this. This is the one way. I can't describe how many CEOs I am willing to hit with my car before I am willing for you to not be here. Go to school.

0:02:44 Thomas: Me I'm realizing I think what happened is early on I learned that easter that was the main one where I was like well it's it's never no fucking idea when it is right it's like the fifth sunday after the equinox is some bullshit or something and I learned as a kid was like oh so nothing matters so like no holiday so no holiday is any day

0:03:02 Tom: Yeah I love that you didn't put easter in a bucket called that's some bullshit because I get that I did that with easter yeah

0:03:05 Thomas: Yeah no it was like that's all of them my My brain was like, so all of them are kind of random, right? And then I never thought about it again. Fourth of July, I can get that one. Within a day or two. Within a Day or Two. Is it going to go to my house? Yeah. As long as I have a dictionary with me. Yeah. Oh, boy.

0:03:12 Tom: Yeah right

0:03:13 Eli: So you just do whatever you fucking want. Fourth of July. Right there in the Cinco de Mayo. Ready to go. Got to do a little translation for that one. But it's pretty close. It gets in there. But gentlemen do you know the only thing worse than the ever spiraling ever changing yearly calendar by which we mean it's pretty much the same and has been for a

0:03:20 Tom: Yeah yeah it's right in there yeah cinco de mayo is an easy one yeah right yeah

0:03:36 Eli: While, except for fucking daylight savings time that's its own topic I'm not going to interrupt myself but I will say I was promised Marco Rubio had shot that in the back of the head and it's still it's still fucking around I don't know what I did but it's still around it's still in my life anyways point being it's worse than the auto ads the auto adds they're ruining your podcast experience hey we're your bros you want to kick back and chill with your dad bros and then in the middle of it what's that kirk hey you should sign up for a verizon phone you already have a phone why do they keep advertising phone companies it feels like that would be a tiny percentage of the population asking for a very specific change of service but apparently it's all the podcast ads and you can make them go away over at patreon .com forward slash dear old dads where for a dollar an episode you get a commercial free version of every show plus a little bonus parenting story at the end. Did a little update on Firewatch last week

0:03:36 Thomas: That's what you say. Yeah. No, I couldn't do it. Yeah. You need to hear it.

0:04:37 Eli: To find out just how long my son is going to be kept out of the New Jersey school system spoiler alert it's forever

0:04:45 Thomas: And is it because the fire spread and the whole town is aflame? Now you have to find out. It's one mattress.

0:04:49 Eli: Nope nope it's the one abandoned mattress factory yeah patreon .com forward slash dear old dads like a fire into the infrastructure of my tiny central new jersey town rip into it

0:05:09 Ad: [Ad break 1 — ad music]

0:05:10 Eli: All right, gentlemen, I got a mini one for you here because I've got a little manifesting and I know not everyone in our so -called skeptic community believes in manifesting but I'm about to read you something that is magical and beautiful and I need you all as you you as I regale you with the tale to imagine it happening to Tom, because that's what made me happy. All right. This is Legal Advice UK from Renit. My son pleasured himself in front of Gemini Live with the camera. My entire family have had our Google accounts banned.

0:05:29 Tom: No why me god damn it oh jesus

0:05:47 Thomas: That's so good.

0:05:54 Eli: He's 14 and stupidly decided to try and role play with Gemini using its live camera mode. The AI correctly identified he was underage and Google banned all my accounts. He did it on the family tablet. It has parental controls to stop him watching inappropriate stuff, but we didn't realize Gemini wasn't covered by these. All of our entire family's Google accounts were linked to that tablet. Google banned them all. Everything gone. 15 years of business. Completely inaccessible. All my emails, all my documents saved in Google Drive, even my website was linked to my Google account,

0:05:53 Tom: God no no no oh my god

0:06:37 Eli: And that's been locked down too. We've written to Google and begged for it to be reinstated, but they've said that all the accounts have been shut down for child protective reasons I don't know how I'm gonna pay my mortgage in three months time I've literally lost all my records for my accountant my company year ends in may my whole life is completely fucked is there any legal mechanism I can use to get all my google accounts back oh because

0:06:46 Tom: Oh my God holy shit holy shit yeah this is a fill your pockets with rocks and walk into the ocean moment that's the only thing you can do that's it

0:07:15 Eli: Here's imagine thinking thinking you are going to role play with the Gemini AI, right? You finally got it to agree to be Daenerys Targaryen. You're just getting to the good part. And not only does it get you in trouble, right. Cause it would be bad enough. It was just like, Hey, it tells your dad you've destroyed your dad's printmaking business. Your dad, your dad has built his website design business from the ground up. When he met your mom, they use the money that they were going to spend on their wedding they got married they eloped in a small country church so that he could build his first website and it's all it's al dashed so you could jerk off in front of an autocomplete like that's fucking awesome because here's the other crazy thing this kid's life is crazy affected right this is like the defining experience of his decade because he's not doing anytime he leaves the room from now on his dad's gonna be like hey real quick um I just want to go check you're not about to go jerk off somehow using our phone number into a police box right I just wanted to double

0:08:23 Eli: Check because apparently we needed to clarify whether or not we do those things

0:08:22 Thomas: Yeah does he just come home one day the sun comes home and his room is just filled with porn like here's all the porn in the world that you could possibly ever need several prostitutes they're they're there several sex workers yeah anything else my leash

0:08:32 Eli: Here's all porn jerk off onto it just go ahead they're underneath it somewhere you got to work your way through the porn first

0:08:32 Tom: What the fuck did this kid want gemini to see him for as well he turned the camera on right so that That like Gemini could get a good look at him while

0:08:49 Thomas: Yeah I don't get that maybe it was yeah maybe maybe there's more for gemini he's like I don't even enjoy this this

0:08:56 Eli: And him honking

0:08:56 Tom: He was whacking it. What is right? Like, I don't want to be. Look, I appreciate you don't wanna be a selfish lover while you're masturbating to this thing, you know? But I think this is one of those instances, my guy, where the reciprocation's not necessary.

0:09:10 Eli: It oh I can't wait for tom to share that website and right like actually it turns out gemini asked him to oh that's fucking great but think about this right so it's this defining experience of this decade he's going to be talking to his wife in like 20 years and like another stiff thanksgiving he stands up and you know oh we got to get back I know know they're in the uk doesn't matter he's like exactly he's like oh we gotta get headed back and they're like oh darling it's only thursday and he'slike I I gotta go and then on the ride home his wife mother of his two children who are asleep in the back is like why aren't you and your dad close and he he

0:09:32 Tom: Stiff Thanksgiving is what got him into this trouble.

0:09:47 Eli: He cannot tell her that it is because he destroyed he destroyed his father's livelihood and lost the family home because he wanted to show gem and I

0:09:59 Tom: You remember I told you about the two years we all slept in a chrysler lebaron well I got a story for you jesus christ I guess what's the moral of the story like get your kids their own fucking gemini account holy shit google's got a nuclear option

0:10:06 Eli: When god so fucking funny

0:10:14 Thomas: Genuinely was having a panic attack like god I need to not be dependent on any google or dropbox or anything who

0:10:15 Eli: Oh yeah no 100 dude I just switched everything away when I really invested in piracy I switched everything way from anything that can shut my shit down the truth is that I am attached to one ecosystem still and I'm not going to name names I'm going to say it's because of one of my co no I like that ecosystem but well that's true technically they control our our entire life hoods, but I am attached to the Facebook ecosystem because one of my coworkers, not going to name names, insists on all our communications being through, through Facebook messenger.

0:10:26 Thomas: Knows yeah don't want to risk it napple

0:10:37 Tom: Apple apple schnapple

0:10:54 Eli: And so I am still firmly planted one foot into the Facebook space, but yeah,

0:10:59 Tom: I love that I've made that more difficult for you by my refusal now to use meta products so like now when we do a citation needed a poor eli's gotta send messages to like me and everybody else yeah right it's so fucking great

0:11:10 Eli: Three different chains on four different mediums. Like, excuse me, master. I believe it's time. I've rung the bell.

0:11:18 Tom: You've got two inflexible old men like fucking dictating your entire workflow and I love that for you I just I love dat for

0:11:21 Eli: Mm hmm. Yep and I'm just sitting on a zen caster call going I hope they got the text message and pigeon I sent I hope everybody got it all right I know that's not a full episode I just want to remind you all out there that you're you're one jork sesh away from losing everything losing everything you've ever had everything you've never been

0:11:30 Tom: You oh my god god that's so fucking funny not even your jerk sesh either somebody some 14 can you imagine being at the fucking whims of a horny 14 year old boy that's the that's a thing that determines whether or not you eat today

0:11:53 Thomas: Jesus well I mean yeah we kind of were when elon was you know fucking our government or whatever

0:11:58 Tom: That's true yeah we still are

0:11:59 Eli: Yeah that's fair it's funny because we're switching a bunch of stuff over to proton mail now because proton mail is the one for crazy people But here's the thing. When you go to a truly free service, it is explicitly and first and foremost for child pornographers. So everything you read in the copy is like, and we'll never check what you send. We wouldn't tell the cops shit no matter what. And you're like, oh yeah, these guys are, these guys are dedicated to freedom. Just, just normal, normal, chill, freedom,

0:12:15 Tom: Yeah jesus christ oh my god that's that's good it's good maybe we should pay for things you know maybe there's some times you should be like ah you know this is worth paying for is it important

0:12:34 Eli: Normal chill, cool freedom. Maybe could I pay? Is there just a middle company that's kind of forgiving and cool, but not that cool.

0:12:47 Thomas: Yeah meta

0:12:49 Tom: Isn't there like a weird thing we've all done where where we've decided that, like, we really, like some shit is essential, but we also refuse to pay for it for some reason. You're like, this is really vitally important. Where can I get one that's free? And you're like that's unlikely to actually be the best idea. You know, it's never a good. Yeah, it'S terrible. It's a bad idea. We should get rid of that idea. Right.

0:13:04 Thomas: Yeah I don't know where we all got that idea especially when And sometimes the amount of money you're talking about is like, I will not pay $9 .99 a month for that. No way.

0:13:15 Tom: That's nothing. It's nothing I pay like twelve ninety nine for an Apple TV subscription because I watched one show once like a year ago you know and that's

0:13:16 Thomas: You're like, what the fuck are you talking about?

0:13:23 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. I will say I'm finally just the other day. I finally, I think I'm maybe going to be, I don't have the time, but I would be if I had the time radicalized on the fucking streaming services. And it took a while to get to me. But when Amazon, which I've paid for and had the prime video, whatever, forever, just the the other day was like hey you want no ads I was like yeah that's what I've had forever why would I whatever you're saying I already have no no you have ads now we just we just get you know what happened you caught a viral case of ads it's they're in the air we can cure we got the cure though it's $4 .99 a month for the ultra have you seen this this is real I'm not making the ultra I was like what the fuck nonsense and of course I bought it immediately but it was like I can't yeah

0:13:53 Eli: You got to answer.

0:14:01 Tom: It oh god no

0:14:01 Eli: Yeah, of course. No, 100%. Of course. Yeah, no, instantly. Like a sloppy mob enforcer.

0:14:09 Tom: Because watching ads feels fucking insane as an adult there's no

0:14:11 Thomas: I know and it's just like I thought we already did that it's pretty amazing that this is like I love that this is going to be our version of upton sinclair's the jungle or whatever where they're like yeah you paid to take away the ads and then they got more ads and they asked you to pay them again it's not like your friend fell into the fucking

0:14:23 Eli: They put the ads back in. Yeah.

0:14:32 Thomas: Meat fryer or whatever it's it's not that it'S like the ads were double charged but it is the same principles the same principle is that they could sell you on, hey, no ads. And then one day they're like, oh man, whoopsie, there's ads. We don't know how it happened, but the

0:14:32 Tom: Way it's a great analogy yeah yeah

0:14:37 Eli: It's the same. It feels the same to me. Yep. Everybody's done it.

0:14:47 Thomas: Ads crept into our system. But also billing crept in there too. And if you pay money, we can undo the ads that somehow happened to us again. Yeah, it's a shakedown, literally

0:14:56 Eli: Yeah, it's just being shaken down. It's nice because you feel like an old shoemaker in 1920s New York when a big Italian guy would come by and gently stroke

0:14:59 Tom: 100 yeah

0:15:00 Thomas: A shakedown. Yeah, sure would be a shame if you had to see a preview for a stupid fucking show you're never gonna watch oh yeah

0:15:07 Eli: The top of your counter and be like...

0:15:10 Tom: Well plus like all the ads are the same like fucking trem fire ad or like whatever fucking medical like you know pill for a disease you don't have that you like it's the same fucking ad over and over

0:15:18 Thomas: Well here's how they did it here's How They Did It you know you got you can't boil a frog all at once first what they started doing I'm gonna sound like a crazy old grandpa this didn't used to happen back in my day when something was no ads there just weren't ads and then what they did is they started sneaking in well we can show you like a preview for our other shows that we have because that's not yeah yeah it's not an ad it's It's not, no, that's just us. It's just our other hobbies. Yeah, it's just our other hobbies that we want to show you.

0:15:34 Eli: Yep none this is brought to you by jack reacher's we're just saying it's brought to you by Jack Reacher we're making small talk before you watch

0:15:42 Tom: It's not really an ad it's it's an affiliate sponsorship it's not an ad we renamed

0:15:53 Thomas: Yeah. And that's how they fucking normalized it. They normalized it by thinking like, oh, yeah, I guess there are some previews or some bullshit I have to sit through. That's still whatever. And then all of a sudden it was like, wait a minute, that wasn't even, I don't even think that was your thing. I think it was a different network, you fucker.

0:16:08 Thomas: And then now it's like, well, it was just ads. Sorry. Fuckers.

0:16:08 Eli: Minions just dance also I don't know if you've seen I I was without ads for a really long time and then because we watch a lot of our movies because they're only carried on to be over on cam to be doesn't have a no ads option to be is like we're mostly smuggling this money through Ukraine.

0:16:27 Thomas: Yeah, that is fucking diabolical. Yeah.

0:16:27 Eli: Yeah, we don't. You just gotta watch it. So, if you haven't seen an ad in a while, they have gone to hell the way we have. Yeah.

0:16:27 Tom: It oh they're so bad bad.

0:16:36 Thomas: You know what I do when you make me do GAM, which I love when you make me what I meant is when you makes me watch a stupid thing for GAM if it's to be I will buy it on Amazon. I can't do it. I will I refuse because how dastardly is it to have a product where like we won't even let you get out of the ads. You're seeing the fucking and we're sending you that eyeball thing from that one movie. You have to watch these fucking we're clockwork orging you or I You know how many weird, dumb shits I've purchased for GAM? I don't regret it either.

0:16:38 Eli: What? Yup. You have to watch it, and you have to watch the ads.

0:17:05 Eli: Oh, yeah, my Amazon purchase is just their suggested products for me are like schizophrenia medication? Syndication? I don't know, man. All the seasons of Friends and the Eyeball Monsters, that doesn't match up.

0:17:19 Thomas: Wait,

0:17:22 Tom: So we got to launch into this email we got from a listener and we got to do it right away because the email is 300 pages long. Yeah. This is a listener.

0:17:27 Thomas: This is a list. Oh, my God. This is so weird. I was thinking it was Reddit just in the back of my mind.

0:17:32 Tom: Nope. This is from a listen.

0:17:32 Eli: Wait, wait, wait. Tom, you're telling me that if our listeners need advice straight from the heart, straight off the dome, they can email us?

0:17:41 Tom: They can. Eli. Now, what if they just want to email us for some personal advice.

0:17:46 Eli: Well, then they should send it to Tom. Wait. Wait, let me find your real email and... You can't do that.

0:17:49 Tom: No, no, you will not find my, you can not do that. But if you want to send us, if you wanna send us an email to actually address on the show, it's the dads at dear old dads .com and the dads. Yeah.

0:18:03 Eli: That's thedads at drodads .com. Also, we're going to make fun of it if that's not clear. Or we're gonna ignore it. It's gonna be one of those things. Sometimes, yeah, we'RE gonna... It's not a... You've heard the show, right? It's a comedy show. Yeah, no, do it.

0:18:13 Thomas: Yeah. It's pretty much there's no middle there. Yeah.

0:18:13 Tom: Yeah, those are your options. They're not good options. You don't have have good options here yeah but I do it anyway you know just uh yeah all

0:18:21 Thomas: But we actually give our heartfelt advice yeah

0:18:22 Eli: Hey, the sad ones, we don't talk about it, but we think about them. I think about some of the sad ones we get sent all the time.

0:18:27 Thomas: Oh they're haunting us yeah for for the rest of our lives we'll take the

0:18:28 Eli: I'm like, ah, bummed me the fuck out. Yeah, we're deeply, deeply scarred.

0:18:31 Thomas: Memories with us deeply oh boy

0:18:28 Tom: The time yeah all right hey dads I want to share a current marriage drama my best friend is in and I think I could use some advice about what I can tell her and how much I get involved and all that maybe it is interesting for other listeners as well I know I don't know I'll change the names of the people involved apart from me so I'm maggie my best front is nelly her husband is jason I'm really good friends with him to. Quick background. This is not a quick background, by the way. We've known each other since 2012. We were in ninth grade. We're in our late 20s now, if you don't want to do the math, and all three of us were and still are part of the same friend group. We went to boarding school together, so the bonds you form there are significantly different from normal high school times. It's a lot tighter.

0:18:42 Thomas: None yeah

0:19:11 Eli: Nellie, thank you for acknowledging that I wouldn't be able to do that math quick enough. And so you told me how old everyone is. I deeply appreciate it. I feel seen.

0:19:17 Tom: A lot tighter in a lot of cases, not the healthiest, because a lot of us came from not great social backgrounds, then spending our formative years in an environment with only those people so the friend group has had a lot of drama over the years we have matured a lot as well and the relationships are much more stable and deep now and there's always been genuine love for each

0:19:36 Eli: Okay, Tom, before we move on, it's very important. Do you know, do either of you, Tom or Thomas, know boarding school kids? Because this is important context.

0:19:44 Tom: Other I just know two I know two people who went to boarding

0:19:46 Eli: Okay, so if you have not gone to boarding school, Let me just give you the quick cult members are like about what morning school kids go through. All right. They leave these children alone on a Hogwarts campus from the age of there's like one old British guy in an office seven buildings away. And he teaches you history 10 minutes before graduation. But otherwise, it's just kids wandering around lording the flies that fuck out of each other. So when someone says, like, it was intense, you're probably picturing, like our high school drama, which is like, and then Chad dated Karen right after she and Billy broke up. No, these people like stole cars and ran each other. It's why all the murder shows take place at a boarding school, because there's just a murder a month at every boarding school.

0:19:47 Thomas: Idea wow wow

0:20:36 Eli: There's one rich child murdering another rich child because their parents didn't love them enough to keep them at home. There's a reason, of

0:20:43 Thomas: Wow it's actually the what keeps these in business is the podcast true crime industrial industrial complex they just want the more boarding schools for the murders

0:20:49 Tom: School yeah right

0:20:51 Eli: Course. How could they not?

0:20:51 Thomas: Like we need more murders that you know what that's gonna be my version of the illuminati for me eventually it'll be like you know I think there's a group of like podcast documentary film moguls they're like we need more fucked up shit to make a documentary on so that we can put our ads around it make thomas pay another 7 .99 a month for the fucking ads for it and he will do

0:21:12 Eli: What

0:21:14 Tom: And of course we all have other friends now did not go to boarding school with us, so that helps as well, I think. Now, Nellie and Jason became a couple in our last year in boarding school, and we and some other friends moved to the same city for university together, and We've been there for roughly 12 years now. He discovered that he is bisexual in the meantime, while she is very much a demi -gray ace, which led to a lot of tension, and they decided to open their relationship so he can have the experiences he wants to have with men that NellIE as a woman cannot give him. But that has not been smooth sailing for either of them. There's There's been a lot of drama and hurt feelings because the communication did not happen or went wrong. Jason also got more and more into the kink puppy play community, which is not something Nellie enjoys. But she gave it a try and also got to know a lot OF the people in the kinc group, which is not only sexual, but also is just friendship based.

0:22:03 Tom: But she's really not into that. So she does not engage there anymore. Now, fast forwarding to last year. What's that?

0:22:03 Thomas: That hmm sure

0:22:08 Eli: We're not gonna talk about those sentences you just said you want to fast forward there are no follow -up you got no commentary on the puppy play I have

0:22:09 Thomas: Sure we are

0:22:15 Tom: Not yet. Not yet? Yeah, we're going to get through the whole email here if we can. Now, then fast forwarding, last year they got married. It was already in this open relationship phase. And honestly, looking back, I think the proposal was one of these big gestures to mend hurt feelings.

0:22:21 Thomas: Oh okay do

0:22:31 Eli: Oh you mean every proposal ever yeah

0:22:34 Thomas: All puppy play people have to do the lady and the tramp like spaghetti thing yeah I feel like that's got to be part of it yeah

0:22:38 Tom: The spaghetti kiss? If that's such a missed opportunity, if not, it's such an open relationship. It's such fucking lost opportunity.

0:22:41 Eli: Did they make a reference to the puppy Play at the wedding because like we had had the table numbers, had pictures of pugs on them. And I feel like

0:22:52 Tom: Was Madge in your wedding?

0:22:52 Eli: If someone was into, of course she was the ring bear. Yeah.

0:22:55 Tom: I knew it. I fucking knew it, yeah.

0:22:57 Eli: We dressed her in a bear costume and she was, she brought the ring up.

0:23:00 Tom: A bear costume? Oh, my God. I'm embarrassed I didn't catch it. I'm embarrassing I didn'T catch it I know I am. I am! I agree with you. Alright, so coming to the issue of now. She spent the weekend with me because she wanted to flee the house because he fucked up so bad.

0:23:01 Eli: Cause she's the ring bare. Yeah.

0:23:03 Thomas: That's what it's called yeah oh my god

0:23:18 Tom: And he really did. I would call it cheating. I think she would too if she allowed herself to think about it like that. So, every roughly two months, there's a big puppy event in a neighboring city. That's a lot more puppy events then every 60 days there's a big puppy event that's like a lot what

0:23:30 Eli: Too frequent. That's, you gotta have a full moon more often than you have a puppy event.

0:23:39 Thomas: Oh yeah you know there's puppies there chicago puppy capital of the world that was several different cities but you know yeah

0:23:40 Tom: Big city like I live near chicago I mean I'm not looking for puppy events

0:23:44 Eli: Oh God. A puppy event in Chicago. Cal, I'll told you for the last time. If you don't walk me straight down this fucking pathway, we're gonna roll around in the garage

0:23:55 Tom: Maybe I don't know where that was it was not chicago all right neighboring city gets excited he goes there for the whole weekend and that is usually the time that is emotionally the hardest for nelly because she hates this and now a third third person enters the drama eric eric is part of the kink thing but lives far away he and jason have become extremely close and they have sex when he's in our city which then also causes problems in the

0:24:22 Thomas: I just have to ask tom at what point if this was your friends would you have noped out of the conversation it just been like and not and and not because it's weird for me this just is like oh this is more trouble than it's worth whatever this is just get rid of

0:24:27 Tom: Marriage what are you fucking kidding me 100 years ago what I would thomas smith I would go back in time and not make friends with that person that's how much I would not do this I'd I'd be like, no, like,

0:24:35 Eli: Let me know when it's Mother's Day I

0:24:35 Thomas: It let me know when this is over I'd be after that like and so what should I do i'dbe like I don't remember if you were the fucking puppy or not I don' remember who's what whoever is that stop it and quit this and then with headphones on it's just no don't do that that's gonna you got it now then they start coming right all over

0:24:48 Tom: Yeah, like no, no. I like 100 % somebody starts telling me this story and I'm just like, go lay down, go lay down. Oh, God damn it.

0:24:51 Eli: Wondered why you started editing without headphones on while I was talking

0:25:05 Tom: You're into it. Shit. Jesus Christ. So fucking funny. He and Jason become extremely close. They have sex when he's in our city, which then always causes problems in the marriage. Nellie says she's not jealous because she knows that Eric is a guy. The sex with him is not something she can provide. But she gets jealous for the emotional part of it because she suspects jason to at least have a crush on eric and vice versa and that is something she can't deal with the part that jason fucked up shortly over the weekend they have a I will tell you when I plan on having sex with someone else and you can ask as many questions as you need to be comfortable with that

0:25:27 Thomas: You that's the issue going on here oh for fuck's sake oh

0:25:40 Tom: Policy and as you can imagine because I'm writing this now she asked when he met with eric one evening what they were were planning on doing not in a controlling way she was already aware there would be sex involved and he told her drinking cocktails with some other people from the kink group and then he packed condoms without telling her and would not have told her had she not noticed it and the way she reacted when she asked about that was a very clear that he knew he fucked up he asked her if he should come home but she does not want to be the bad girlfriend so he stayed there and she stayed with me and we talked about all that

0:25:40 Eli: Fucking cool Cool interrogation. Can I lend an interesting context clue here? Because I'm going to forget when we make it through the whole email. She noticed after he left that he packed condoms, which means she went and counted the condoms. Just so everybody knows, just if you're doing some deep reading of this email,

0:26:23 Thomas: Oh wow okay that's so the I can't wait for the problem in this situation to not be the puppy play person yeah

0:26:32 Eli: Which train is facing the thing. All right, so go ahead.

0:26:37 Tom: What really breaks my heart is seeing how obviously obviously unhappy she is with the whole arrangement but she insists on it being free and the relationship being great apart from the bad moments and to be fair the nice moments do exist and from what she tells me in those moments they really do love each other a lot but I'm afraid she just lets him get away with literally everything because she's scared to break up she even told me she's not even angry at him just really sad because she knows that she will never break up with him because she loves him too much for that and after the weekend it we'll all just go back to the way that it was and there'll be happy moments and sad moments

0:27:10 Thomas: Well I sympathize a lot with this I mean daisy messes up so much shit but we're like god we're just we gotta keep her it's the you know she'll choose up at the kids toys and we'relike fuck I wish I could get rid of her but I can't I gotta stay in this

0:27:26 Tom: And it sounds like she's settling for him so much right now a sentence that fell over the weekend was quote when will he notice that really he's gay and stop lying to me and my and himself after our first child after the second what the fuck do I do

0:27:34 Thomas: Relationship oh wait sorry do they have kids no she's imagining having kids with this fucking thing Oh, okay.

0:27:40 Tom: Then uh no no yeah they're married puppies at least, and that she just wants the old Jason back, but that Pandora's box is opened and cannot be closed anymore. The whole situation just feels so sad.

0:27:56 Thomas: Not really.

0:27:56 Tom: Also, I think that having been married for less than a year plays a huge role in why breaking up feels impossible for her because she would feel stupid and embarrassed about it. She's back in her apartment with Jason now and told me everything's fine. No, you're not. I don't know why she says girlfriend earlier,

0:28:06 Thomas: Wait, they said girlfriend earlier. Am I losing my mind? It was like, oh, okay, they are married. Okay.

0:28:12 Tom: But they are married. Yeah, they are married. Because remember the proposal was a

0:28:17 Thomas: That's right. Yep. Yep. Gotcha.

0:28:17 Tom: Proposal to fix problems. Super chill. But I don't know if her definition of fine matches my own right now. So this has been a really long text. If you've read it until now, thank you. Some concrete questions. Do you think this relationship is savable? They're both looking into couples therapy right now, as well as obedience training. And as well as Nellie looking for a personal therapist. What do I tell her without hurting her more how much do I get involved with this drama and also keep in mind that I really only know nelly's point of view that doesn't matter just want to say there's literally no point of you on the opposite side that uh makes any difference at all

0:28:31 Thomas: No. What are we going to do with the rest of the show, guys? Yeah.

0:28:55 Thomas: I don't know. You know, that's the weird thing is I actually think she's more of the problem in this situation now that I hear it. But it still doesn't matter. Same answer. Just stop. Everybody, everybody just stop,

0:29:03 Tom: I feel like the bottom line like the part that I want to like grab a hold of is you've been married for less than a year and already you're like looking at your marriage or your relationship and be like yeah I mean there's a lot of happy and sad mo if you can't be happy in that first year if you you can't figure out that you're like, man, this fucking first year has been fucking just a joy start to finish. Remember, there's no external factors here, right? It's not like, you know, oh my God, like we got married and then, you Know, somebody got sick or somebody got hit by a car, you know? Like a meteor, like, so no external Factors. It's just right. Like, yeah, they took our favorite fire hydrant out down the street.

0:29:15 Thomas: Yeah, for a year, yeah 100%, yeah, they're chasing the mailman, yeah, yeah that's

0:29:41 Tom: Now there's nowhere to pee outside. Like there's no externality here, none. And you're in the first year of your marriage. You're like a lot of ups and downs. No. You just have a bad relationship. Yeah. You just have terrible relationship and you're not happy with all the weird compromises you've had to make because at the end of the day, they're never the things you wanted. You're just so afraid of losing this person. You said yes to shit. You didn't really want to say yes to. That's it. So just don't say yes to things you don't actually want. Just never do that in in your relationship.

0:29:48 Thomas: Bad, yeah it's not normal, or I mean it might be normal, it's not good yeah

0:30:22 Ad: [Ad break 2 — ad music]

0:30:24 Eli: Okay so I want to clarify a couple of things first of all we'll get to the puppy play in a second because I bet you gentlemen have a lot of questions and I'm here to answer them I've been around a bunch of puppy play events and can I tell you they can be anything from super gross to a delight but we'll talk about that in a second the thing that you need to understand the context for this and I lent a little at the beginning is the boarding school connection because you raise each other when you were at boarding school, right? You see your parents at Harry Potter Christmas and that's pretty much it because you have so little parenting done to separate from the dynamics that are established in boarding school would be like breaking up with your dad.

0:30:31 Tom: I Googled this.

0:31:13 Thomas: I've done that

0:31:13 Eli: So unlike a lot of high school relationships where it's just like, Oh, oh, just break up. Like, it's obviously not working out. Like you can't, because that person was there for your like first period and they taught you what a tampon was. Right. So they're just, you can'T separate those relationships. Everyone, exactly. Poppy bed, right? Pea pad training. You just can'T seperate those relationships, which is why our writer, not Nelly, is so invested is because like, you're just, these are the people, the way that like, Like, when your aunt goes through a divorce, you're also just in it. You're in it forever, is how it works.

0:31:30 Tom: Believe it was puppy pads in this instance, but still. Yeah.

0:31:52 Tom: Look, I think what you've just described though, what you just described is like, and I agree that that's probably part of the dynamic here. What's obviously described in the email is a massive codependency problem.

0:31:52 Thomas: Decline no yeah

0:32:04 Tom: There's just an enormous psychologically damaging codependency problem where she says, like, I know that I'll never leave him because, you know, I love him too much, even though all of these things that I've said yes to that make me miserable make me vulnerable. This person is wildly codependent and not interested in any of this stuff. None of this is her lifestyle. Noneof this is like, yeah, this matches my values. Instead, it's a series of compromises begrudgingly accepted out of a fear of losing somebody else. And then that other person takes advantage of her insecurity and codependency to do whatever the fuck he wants knowing that ultimately there are no consequences for him so he can go he can he can say whatever he wants do whatever she wants she'll get upset it won't really matter because she's too afraid to go anywhere because she is massively insecure and codependent they shouldn't do couples counseling honestly she should just do personal

0:32:03 Thomas: Yeah hmm

0:33:00 Tom: Counseling she should get her shit tight because as soon as she does, she's going to be like, oh, I'm being massively taken advantage of here. Massively.

0:33:11 Thomas: Yeah yes I also don't I don't know I think the last area of whether where I just don't understand is whatever because wasn't she the asexual something I don' t okay

0:33:22 Tom: She's Demi Gray Ace. So I looked that up too. So I didn't know what that was. That is somebody who has a fairly low, but maybe not non -existent sex drive or desire for sex. Yeah.

0:33:37 Eli: It's interesting because the author of this email says that he's bi, and so he explores outside the marriage for things he can't get from her, but she's demi -gray ace, ace which implies that there is an amount of sex that they're having that they are happy with and then he's exploring yeah or he's not getting any for that that is unclear all of this is Poly done wrong so let's talk about the ways in which

0:33:54 Thomas: Well yeah or or he can't get anything from her kind Yeah.

0:34:04 Thomas: I don't even think Poly enters into it.

0:34:04 Eli: Poly is done wrong so we've yeah we've talked about this a bunch of times and so first and foremost the thing to understand is that when one of the partners discovers that they ace you can absolutely love each other but the solution of and I know we did a listener email about this the solution of well we will just be poly so that you can go get sex when you need sex and then you come back and we pretend that that doesn't affect our relationship unless the person who is gray ace is also non-monogamous which is not necessarily

0:34:07 Thomas: I mean, it's not even what this is. Yeah.

0:34:39 Eli: Assumed that doesn't work right because ace people still feel romantic jealousy and that's what's happening here or sexual jealousy, which is often what happens in those situations. Like the solution that someone can just go off and have sex and then come back and it'll all be fine because you get your needs met and then we get to be, quote unquote, the same. Like, that's a terrible solution, and it's a solution that people put into place so that they don't have to have hard conversations about what are fair and unfair things to ask for in a relationship. Like, what actual needs are. That's the first mistake that they made. What's obvious is that... Mm -hmm.

0:35:18 Tom: Let me expand on that real quick too. Just a yes and that piece too. I think if you are in a poly relationship and you're just like, God, I just hate the way this makes me feel every 60 days when you actually do the poly part of it, you're not in a poly relationship. You're not, you know, doing something that you're happy and comfortable with that like matches your values, right? And is something that, you would choose apropos of nothing. This has nothing to do with your personal choices and preferences. You are just begrudgingly accepting something out of a fear of losing somebody else this lady's not like yeah I'm poly instead she's like yeah I'm afraid those are wildly different positions to take so like I actually don't even think she's in a poly relationship I think she's just accepting a horrible horrible amount of like honestly like what is tantamount to abuse Yeah this guy knows this guy 100 knows that's why it's come up many times like from the email this is not like the first or second time that he's like not communicated well with her not like made her feel comfortable these lies to her expressly in order to just do the things that he wants to do like I mean who does that how is that not and he knows like you know your your spouse he's like yeah she's not gonna fucking go anywhere so why would I tell her something it's just gonna make her uncomfortable and I'm gonna have to like reassure her and do all of this extra extra emotional labor. I'd rather just lie to her. It's literally in the email. Like it's like more than once he's done this, there's communication problems. The whole proposal was just to like mend fences. He's like this Eric guy comes into town. It makes this lady jealous. And instead of having a conversation like, Hey, I'm gonna go fuck Eric. And we're all cool with that. Right. And said, he knows she's not actually cool with it.

0:36:12 Thomas: Abuse? Yeah, I'll be honest. I may just not understand. I'm trying to like reread that part of it. I don't get it because it was like oh they have a policy that he'll tell and she said she knows they're having sex and then he said we're drinking cocktails with some other people from the kink group I didn't take that as not having sex but it seems like that's supposed to mean not having sex because yeah I don'T I DON'T GET IT WHAT ELI CAN YOU TRANSLATE THIS AM I WHAT AM I MISSING

0:37:23 Tom: Yeah, I mean, just going from that right yeah

0:37:24 Eli: Right. Yeah, no, I don't get it because I don't know their rules, and I also don't know what he is... being honest or dishonest about all of the communication here is terrible it's all bad right it's all crazy and yeah and she's counted the condoms and the drawer and that's and also like when someone says we're gonna talk before that's permission for sex every single time and I and look there's a lot of people and there's A lot of books that say hey you're not supposed to judge other people's poly people are allowed to have whatever kind of poly relationship they want but I think if someone has control over your sex life that's not healthy I don't think that's a healthy consensual thing where someone else and you get to ask as many questions as you want like what do you fucking mean yes what hole is it going to go in when a boy and a girl love each other very much there's just a lot of that about that that is control language that has been snuck into to boundary language now don't be wrong I agree with tom I think this dude is doing shitty stuff as well right like I think everybody in this scenario is behaving terribly because they don't want to have the this relationship doesn't work anymore

0:37:38 Thomas: YEAH THE PART WHERE SHE'S LIKE TRACKING IF HE TOOK CONDOMS OR NOT IS LIKE THAT'S ALREADY SO LIKE THIS ISN'T ANYTHING YEAH I AGREE WITH THAT

0:38:42 Eli: Conversation but I think it's just everybody involved is behaving really badly and it's gonna it'll just blow up because of an incident. Right. So I'll tell you right now. Hey, podcast listener, if you'd like to feel psychic, let me let me give you a little psychic intuition. Jason is going to leave your friend for Eric. That jealousy that your friend feels about Eric is 100 percent accurate. And Jason is gonna leave him. Them for eric and then when he does she is going to decide that it was cheating the whole time to villainize him he's gonna decide that she was an abuser and use pseudotherapy language to describe all the previous behaviors right as abuse and they're just they're gonna divide the friends up like a deck of playing cards like pokemon cards

0:39:23 Thomas: To control everything that he did. And probably she won't have many of them.

0:39:33 Eli: At a trading event so pick a friend you like the best. Yeah. Oh, a hundred percent. A hundred percent, yeah. Here's the other thing we have to talk about, right? If sex is involved, sex is not always involved in puppy play. If sex has involved and you are not being a hundred % clear with your partner, also, you know what I'm not hearing? About people on PrEP. And I know, I know we cured AIDS and that's pretty fucking dope, but if you are out having sex with any gender, by the way, I'm talking about just just for queer community for anybody if you are having any kind of kinky open partner based play based sex and you are not on prep you are just endangering everybody not only within that community but everybody in your life who you are Having sex with right we have a AIDS preventative and if you Are not on it at all times you are saying I hear this pill gives you a little bit bit of diarrhea and so I I'm willing to take the chance that I give my partner aids yeah

0:39:36 Tom: Yeah I 100 do think he's being abusive though I genuinely believe that yeah yeah in addition to like any number of other STIs as well I know you specifically don't you know believe in the idea of like sexual boundaries you know and all that but like but like like this is a guy who's willing to lie but genuinely like this is a guy who's willing to lie to his wife about his activities, his sexual activities. And so, like, I do think, like if you're willing to lie about something like I just think it just makes especially around this thing that, you know, she's obviously insecure about. I guess it doesn't even matter. I take sex out of it. If there was anything at all that I knew made Haley feel insecure about herself, my number one mission in life would be to make her feel at least not ever insecure because I was doing something.

0:40:40 Eli: Condoms they feel weird yeah

0:41:24 Tom: Right. Like maybe I can't solve that insecurity, but I'm never going to add to that problem. Right. Right.

0:41:27 Eli: Or you end the relationship right you go hey this is really important to me I gotta get led around on a leash or I gotta lead people around on the leash it's really important let's bounce out right because here's the other thing too and I'll say this

0:41:35 Thomas: That's what Tom says.

0:41:36 Tom: Yeah, like, yes. Yeah. Not holding somebody hostage because, you know, you know that they're too insecure to leave you. That's fucked up.

0:41:47 Eli: I'll say this and it's gonna sound a little kink shaming so forgive me if you are into a kink and your partner tries a kink and doesn't like it and then just sort of like has to scoot their way out of the community so much non-communication took place in that area maybe someone was feeling open to it and I can't speak to ace gray people because their approach to sex and sexuality is different than mine I'm very aware I've never walked into a sexual situation and been like no idea how I'm gonna feel about this I am an open book right I think most people know especially in a kink situation which should be so highly controlled and so filled with conversation and is often not right if someone is blindsided by having an unpleasant sexual experience if that's your partner I mean like I'll say this I wouldn't keep anna at a dinner party she wasn't enjoying if we're all sitting at dinner and she's like not vibing I would stand up I would whip the tablecloth off all at once because I'm a magician and then I'd be like hey everybody we're gonna go because this tablecloth is on fire and then

0:42:55 Eli: I'd weld right next to that tablecloth and walk on out the door so then like the thing that is most abusive to me about this guy is not this weird condom thing right because this is a trap right this is weird trap from their bad poly rules. It's bad and he's abusive and that sucks. But it is the result of her being like, you may answer three riddles before you fuck Eric. Yes, I think his behavior is right.

0:43:17 Tom: What you think is behavior is the result of that.

0:43:20 Thomas: I think this both of these people have developed this dynamic over time because of their separate issues honestly I think that she has the controlly insecure thing going on and he has his nonsense going on and it evolves to the point where he's trying to like in his mind trying to spare her not cause her pain but it ends up causing more pain because of

0:43:46 Ad: [Ad break 3 — ad music]

0:43:49 Eli: Yeah, I Think all of it. I think all of it stems from this lack of communication where I think this dude's core mistake is and the reason I point this out, right? Because it would be easy to just be like, yeah, that guy fucking sucks because he does everything that he's described about his behavior in this situation sucks. But here's the thing he did that seems like it doesn't suck that sucked the most, which is that someone set up unhealthy boundaries around Poly, around a Poly relationship. And instead of having the hard conversation about whether the relationship could continue, he got sneaky.

0:44:24 Eli: And I'll tell you, I do not know a lot of guys who are shitty. I know a ton of guys, especially poly guys, who started to get very fucking loophole contract law about their poly relationship when it wasn't working out in the way they wanted it to.

0:44:23 Thomas: That hmm yeah yep yeah

0:44:40 Tom: I don't disagree with that, but I feel like it would be very evident for this guy. There's no way, I mean, unless she's like a fucking like Academy Award winning actress, for him not to realize like, hey, this hurts you. My activity hurts you, and like, if I'm doing something that hurts my partner, and I'm going to just keep doing it, no matter what, right? The activity is more important than her hurt. Her hurt does not matter as much as I need to do this activity. It doesn't matter what it is. Fucking if pickleball is my fucking life's passion is to go play pickleball five nights a week. And my wife was like, hey, you're never home and I fucking miss you. And I'm like, I've got to play pickleball from 5 p.m. to 11 every fucking day. And that's this who I am. I'm the pickleball grand champion. I'll always I'll die the pickleball grand champion, then you got to say, like, look, we're not it. We are not it

0:45:31 Eli: I can't believe you would attack Keith like this, by the way. This is so inappropriate. He told you he was the pickleball grand champion in the privacy.

0:45:34 Thomas: Sorry

0:45:38 Tom: You can take sex entirely out of it is my point it doesn't matter what it is if you're doing a thing and it hurts your partner and you know it and then on reflection you're like the thing is more important than my partner it is your obligation to leave you've got to leave you don't have a second choice that's it because you've already decided the other thing I would add to that, too, is like if you're doing anything in secret, you know you're doing the wrong thing. That's why you keep it secret.

0:45:56 Eli: Mm-hmm. You got to get out. Yep. Yeah.

0:46:09 Tom: There's never a time that you're keeping something a secret and you're like, I still think I'm doing the right thing, because at the very least, the thing you're not doing is having the balls to pull out of the relationship.

0:46:21 Eli: Yeah. I'll tell you 100% true story, and I hope I'm not telling stories out of turn. I hope Hannah's okay with me telling this story. You might hear a big beep here podcast listener if it's not okay relatively early in our marriage we had not like explored the poly thing yet um but we'd had the conversation we'd been like poly shit right and she was like oh yeah poly shit but it was just not a thing and someone sent me a text that was flirty and like I just you're welcome thomas I just tilted you know what I'm saying I didn't fucking delete it from my phone I didn 'y do anything but like Anna was walking by and I sort of went like yeah I don't want her to see this one and I felt it I felt it in that moment I was like oh it's the beginning of the sad movie it's the beginning of the 4am and so I freaked because I'm me and there's only zero and a hundred I freaked out and I was like hey I just hid this text from you and I don' know why I had a feeling that I needed to hide this from you I just want to be clear this is what this person said and it seems kind of flirty right or maybe I'm just misreading it because I do need to return those library books and you know I did ask her to tell me if I kept it for more than six months again and she she's it's her 90th birthday pretty soon and so I know I really want to make it but like if you do not feel that impulse right and you don't have to be poly to do it if you do that impulse of deception and go oh how do I lean into this in the other direction you are are counting down the days until the worst day of your partner's year is you and the thing you did

0:47:56 Tom: Yeah, I don't disagree with any of that. I don't disagree with any of that. I look at this person as being emotionally codependent, insecure, and immature on her side, and that's all some shit she's got to work out. Honestly, is it savable? No. She should not get in any relationship. Relationship like I think I think what is evident here is that this is somebody who's got to do some real work on themselves and just back out of this whole thing because like you're miserable and if in the first year of your relationship or your marriage you're like yeah we only got married as like a really like a salve to a wound anyway and then like the last like less than one year has been a little rocky and like I'm you know like who he is as a person fundamentally at a sexual and relationship level hurts me in my soul but I think we can do this I think we got another 50 years of this what no you don't neither of you have no just leave this whole thing you hate it anyway you literally hate it just be out of it and then go see a therapist and figure out who you are

0:49:01 Thomas: There are other puppies in the play in the pound. There are other Puppies in the Pound.

0:49:03 Tom: Right hit the dog park you know who

0:49:07 Clip: DEAR OLD DAD

0:49:14 Eli: Gentlemen before we go captain kirk has three ears his right ear his left ear and of course his final frontier just

0:49:24 Tom: Knows oh I kind of loved that though I'm not gonna lie

0:49:25 Thomas: Stupid. There's a lot of work for not much.

0:50:16 Thomas: Every single holiday that isn't nailed down is whenever.

0:50:21 Eli: Make it small talk before you watch minions

0:50:25 Tom: That's who I am I'm the pickleball grand champion I'll always I'll die the Pickleball Grand Champion.