DOD275: Does Banning Phones at School Work?

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad, that's my thing I know now what I can offer you that no one else can Complete and under-dependent I'm a man, I'm sensitive I need to feel loved, I need part of being a father that I enjoy

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that banned cell phones from the studio. I'm Tom Curry.

0:00:33 Thomas: Uh, oh, from the... Yeah.

0:00:33 Tom: I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:36 Eli: Thomas wishes

0:00:38 Thomas: I thought you were gonna joke like we're banning the cell phones from the listeners, like that's how they listen, Tom. They can't... Everyone has to download the show on their computer now. Put it into their record player.

0:00:43 Eli: Onto

0:00:44 Tom: No, you guys get your cell phones. We just don't. We can't have them in the studio

0:00:48 Eli: Their computer and listen, carry your laptop around your house. Like an old person reminds me of a story of my mom. I love my mom so much. She really wants to support the shows, but a lot of the time she'll get to a part of the show where I'll be like, and then I fucked a goose and she doesn't like it anymore. Yeah, I get it. I'm her baby.

0:01:06 Thomas: Weird, I wonder why.

0:01:07 Eli: Like she, she held me and like sang me to sleep and now I'm like fucking bitch. And she's like, okay, that's enough of that. I did something I'm wrong and I'd like to not dwell on it so when she finds an episode where I don't swear at least a little bit longer into the show she'll listen to it a bunch of times and so yeah so

0:01:26 Tom: That's so sweet. That's so sweet and adorable.

0:01:29 Thomas: Yeah, it is.

0:01:30 Eli: My mom has her podcast player set up I don'T KNOW HOW I DON'T KNOW WHAT SETTING SHE ACTIVATED TO DO THIS BUT SHE HAS IT SET UP SO IT STARTS THE EPISODE FROM THE BEGINNING EVERY TIME SO SHE HAS LISTENED TO DOLLY PARTON'S CHRISTMAS ON THE SQUARE OUR EPISODE OF GAM ABOUT THAT LIKE 20 TIMES NOT THE the full episode she's listened to the first like 36 minutes while she does her morning walk she never just pauses it and continues she just starts it fresh and enjoys the content and that's what we want you to do podcast listener but hey you know a great way to listen to this podcast why it's over at patreon.com forward slash dear old dads where your repeated listening will not be interrupted by auto ads for just a dollar a show you get a commercial free version of every Every single episode, you get a little parenting story at the end. I made a 6 -7 joke at a very inappropriate time, and you can find out when and where that was over at patreon.com forward slash dear old dads. Like Lee Bennett Hopkins Award winner Liz Rosenberg ripping into the hot, fresh, two -and -a -half -year -old episode of GAM that she enjoys so much. Rip into it.

0:02:35 Tom: Hey

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0:02:50 Tom: You know I actually have queued up in my kindle a liz rosenberg book to read

0:02:56 Eli: Oh, which one?

0:02:57 Thomas: You should just read the first

0:02:58 Tom: Uh I don't know I have to yeah it's it's I think two or three down from where I'm at now so I have to go back through my list and double check but I I thought of it the other day and I was like I'm gonna add one of this is maybe a couple of months ago but I'm like I'm going to add one whatever books to the list. I add it to the list, and it's coming up in the queue, so I'll be reading some Liz Rosenberg. Which one should I read?

0:02:59 Thomas: Paragraph over and over.

0:03:00 Eli: Yeah. I'll teach her. Laws of Gravity. So here's the thing about Laws of Gravity. Laws Of Gravity is so good, it will actually make you permanently mad that my mom isn't famous. Because LawsOfGravity, my mom's written some brilliant stuff, and Heartbreak Diet is fun, it's a nice family sort of story about recovery and divorce, it's lovely. Oliver writing his lovely Moonrise Palace is this very interesting examination. Yeah, Moonrise palace is a very interesting examination of culture and violence and antiquity my mom's a brilliant writer no matter what laws of gravity is just an arrow in the heart that never comes out and then you remember that my mom isn't like a nobel prize winning number one best -selling new york times author and you're like well that's not right I can't just be the one reading that everyone has to read this book when I get famous that's what I'm making mandatory is that everyone Has to read

0:03:44 Tom: That's the one I downloaded, yeah. Oh,

0:04:16 Eli: Laws of grab because to the person everyone I have I've ever recommended that book to goes like, I think that might be like the best book I've ever read in my life. And I'm like, I know, right? She's so good. And they're like, that's crazy. Why isn't she famous? And I'M like, it's a fucking cold, uncaring universe, right that or people will read mom's poems and realize that she's like, she's not just a good poet. She's an incredible poet. And then they're like, ah, fuck because

0:04:41 Tom: Eli, this is terrible. I can't read it on Kindle. No, it's not on Kindles. It's not. It's terrible. No.

0:04:44 Eli: I don't want

0:04:47 Thomas: What? How is it not on Kindle?

0:04:47 Eli: Laws of gravity. Oh, that one was, I thinkthat one was published by Amazon.

0:04:50 Tom: Hardcover and paperback only right now.

0:04:54 Thomas: What?

0:04:54 Tom: I'm looking right now, I was literally going to add it on my list, but I will say that this is an old man thing to say, but I have gotten to where I struggle to read paper books. Because I read almost all Kindle now. So unless the lighting in the room is perfect, I can't really read a paper book.

0:05:05 Thomas: That's an old man thing. Oh, yeah.

0:05:06 Eli: Unless blue light is forcing Tom awake like an Abu Ghraib patient.

0:05:10 Tom: Yeah. I can see well enough to read apaper book unless the lightning is really good.

0:05:14 Thomas: How do you, Tom, I know we've already talked about this recently, but how do not fall asleep instantly when trying to read something? Like with your life?

0:05:17 Tom: I find reading really engaging for the most part. I find it more engaging than a lot of television. I like TV, don't get me wrong, or a movie, but I can get kind of lulled into sleep a little easier sometimes with TV or a movie because it's like I'm just sort of staring fixedly. My eyes aren't sort of tracking back and forth it feels less active so it's actually kind of like more mesmerizing and easier for me to fall asleep watching tv than reading a book when

0:05:26 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Me too. Yeah, man. It's so so funny because I I am the night person and I don't have the hard time sleeping you know watching anything doing but when I read stuff for the kids sometimes it just fucking oh my god there's times where I feel like the kids probably think I have a disorder because I'm just yawning through it like I'll just be like and then and the bear went down to the like because it's I don't know why my brain is like trying to put me to sleep so hard oh

0:06:16 Tom: I used to read to finn I would fall asleep while I was reading to him all the time oh and then he would just very quietly get up and go walk into another room and go play and like let me sleep

0:06:20 Eli: 100%. Yeah. Yeah.

0:06:20 Thomas: Uh oh it's so cute oh really I wouldn't just sleep with you

0:06:28 Tom: Yeah yep Yep. You did it all the time.

0:06:30 Eli: I think it's an emotional release slash relaxation thing because like it's been 3000 years that parents have been reading to their kids. Right. Like I don't quite have my finger on the pulse of when we first put pen to paper. But pretty quickly afterwards, someone sat down next to their child and read to them as a means of comfort and love. And so it's so deep in your veins that this is what you do, that whenever you have that moment, your body's like, I will die now. And so just fucking, I try to read to Mags on, we do, we read, his bedtime story is 10 pages a night. And it is not because we don't want to read this kid more. It is because anna and I turn into you ever see that video of those parents who've od'd in the car and their kids are in the back and the cops rescue them that's us trying to read 11 pages of a dog man coming you haven't watched that video of those dead parents and their children and their parents kids are trapped in the bank and they're almost gonna die but the cops get them I've

0:07:21 Thomas: Don't watch the most disturbing shit in the world for no reason

0:07:23 Tom: Yeah, that's fucked up. Yeah, no, you need to not have a telephone at all.

0:07:29 Thomas: What is wrong with you

0:07:29 Tom: You should not have the internet. What is happening?

0:07:31 Eli: Seen that video a couple of times you should check it

0:07:33 Tom: I will tell you too, though, like part of the thing, like especially kids at a certain age, they'll like, they're find a book, they love that book. And then you're reading that book for like six months every night. Eamon did that like crazy. There was this car book that he wanted to be read. And like, Like, if you were like, okay, I'll read you another book, you'd be like, well, just fucking read this one again. What the fuck is wrong with you? Oh, God. Dude, my brain just shuts the fuck off with that stuff, though.

0:07:53 Thomas: I know I do you still have books memorized from that I totally do oh there was a book well I know the kids never made me read them a book twice in a row but I did have to read the same book every night for a while. Phoebe loved that. So for her second birthday, and I can't believe that this isn't yesterday. For her second -birthday party, she got a book from somebody that was like a Sesame Street thing that was specifically for like her second birth. And it was a birthday party book, you know, and it's just like this thing. And it's like, let's have a party with a great big cake. It's time for fun. Make no mistake. It's been six years,

0:07:59 Eli: Out yep

0:08:30 Thomas: Six years. Although to be fair I think she forgot about it and then found it for her third birthday and then I read it or sometime around then I remember thinking like oh yeah this was from a year ago so I I had to read it like for a at least a month I don't I have no concept of the time every night

0:08:44 Eli: Oh fucking years the going to bed book by sandra boynton gun to my wake me from a coma and gun to My Forehead I'll give you every syllable of the going -to -bed book by Sandra Boynton no fucking problem

0:08:49 Thomas: God's the best oh it's so good oh the best thing too is like I still remember like her her little voice saying the, the words kind of wrong. Ah, it's the best.

0:09:07 Tom: Do you remember your favorite childhood book?

0:09:09 Eli: My parents hit it this is a famous story in my family is I made them read fat santa and the prince has a boo -boo so often that one day my mom just hid them and we and was like we lost those books they're gone they died chicka

0:09:25 Thomas: Oh man. Yeah. I loved, uh, it was funny cause it's the same one. Some of the same ones are still good. You know, like chicka, chicka boom, boom. I remember my mom reading that. Yeah, and I thought it was so fucking good. That's one of my most visceral, like mom reading to me memories. And then also, um, Tiki Tiki Tembo.

0:09:34 Eli: Chicka boom zoom's a fucking classic

0:09:44 Thomas: Is that one one's still cool or is it like racist now or something I don't know but I love that book

0:09:44 Eli: Yep I think it's still good I'm not sure it feels

0:09:48 Tom: Think it feels racist to me. I feel like you're canceled for saying that. Yeah, that doesn't...

0:09:50 Thomas: Probably yeah

0:09:50 Eli: It feels like it might be on the yeah hopefully that feels like one we could revisit and we'd be like ah yeah no yeah it's a tough one I feel like have I told you my thing about parenthood bits

0:09:55 Thomas: I love that one because the art is really nice too it's really nice I like that book

0:09:55 Tom: I don't approve of whatever Thomas just did, by the way. No.

0:10:04 Thomas: I don't know

0:10:05 Eli: Okay so I feel like everything everyone tells you about what kind of parent they are it's bullshit right oh this guy we really emphasize all you need to do is watch a parents read their kid a story and you see who they are as a parent straight up and down nobody can hide it me I'm doing 27 voices three bits mr bear squash you all flat is trump and 99 of it is improvised right if someone does a straight up -and -down reading of a story for their kid they fucking hate their kid if you just read the words on the page that's a failed abortion in that parent's mind that's all As

0:10:34 Tom: Jesus Christ Okay what if they fall asleep Halfway through the story And the kid walks away Okay Alright yeah

0:10:47 Eli: Long as there were bits before the unconsciousness took you, I know you love your children. Other one?

0:10:52 Thomas: You know what's so funny is I donT I don 'T really do that it's the weirdest thing

0:10:56 Eli: You don't do bits? You love bits. You do bits with me.

0:10:58 Tom: I don't do bits either Yeah

0:10:59 Thomas: No so the kids have these toys that we got them at Disneyland that are Star Wars the new Star Wars is it a porg or something what's the new puffin okay they have one of those and then one of another thing and they're like puppets so you can do their mouths and I do that they love that I do bits

0:11:07 Eli: Yeah, porg. Yeah. Porg's hard. It's a bit.

0:11:16 Thomas: I do dude I do some of my best fucking improv with those kids and those it's pearls before swine those fucking assholes that first off they can't go with the amazing storyline I've already constructed on the fly with them like this is going to be great it will involve all of you it'll be a way no remy has to try to eat the fucking puppet and and I

0:11:21 Eli: Oh, 100%. Oh, they can't yes and at all. Yeah, it sucks. Mm -hmm.

0:11:35 Thomas: I literally have gotten to the point where as the puppet I'll be like why are you you doing that Remy stop hitting me like it's like that bad because if nothing's happening to him for four seconds he starts attacking the puppet like take I was I was like I'm not gonna do this then like you have to or

0:11:49 Eli: Mm -hm. The only bit that he wants to do is I punch the puppet and the puppet doesn't like it.

0:11:55 Thomas: Just he wants the attention so like

0:11:56 Tom: Well it just needs to be about him Yeah right You

0:11:57 Thomas: So like he he his way of like getting that as he attacks the puppet and so I had to start doing a thing where I'm like all right I'll just not do the puppet show if you do that and it's it's kind of worked but I do all all kinds of, I had these great storylines, hilarious fucking improv. And then Phoebe will just have to be like, no, what if we do? No. What if it's this? No, what is this? And then Arlo will start doing it too. And they're like trying to, I'm like, you're four storylines away from the thing that I already was doing. And nevermind. It's fine. Yeah, I

0:12:23 Tom: Gotta do three different puppet shows man You gotta one for Phoebe

0:12:25 Eli: You gotta get it rotating schedule a pope but shows everyone comes in and they can sin

0:12:28 Tom: You know Now,

0:12:28 Thomas: Know. I really do. If they're by themselves, it's great. They love it. That's really fun. But I don't do with books. I don'T know why it just doesn't feel like natural to me

0:12:36 Eli: If aliens came down and they were like prove your wife is a good mom I would have her read chick chat so here's the thing you need to understand about the book chick chat which I recommend if you got a funny wife get in there chick chat 99 of that book is the word peep because it's about this little chick that won't shut the fuck up and then it uncovers an egg and it meets a turtle and and the turtle's real quiet, and so the chick just gets to yammer all day at the fucking poor -ass turtle while the turtle tries to live his life. It rules. But here's the thing. 99 % of your duds out there in the world would just be like, um, I don't understand. Why does it say peep, peep. Peep over and over. This isn't educational.

0:13:15 Eli: How am I going to give my kid a mantra story block while I'm na -na -na? My wife's delivery of Chick Chat is so fucking good. It's comedy. You can track what the chick is saying each beat it's fucking flawless it's a flawless performance that's what I'm saying what were we talking about cell phones in schools dear old dads patreon .com rip into it

0:13:15 Thomas: Nice

0:13:18 Tom: Yeah, you said

0:13:31 Thomas: Wait what was the topic yeah does anyone remember oh no we already did that we're past

0:13:40 Eli: I said that I already said that yeah

0:13:41 Tom: That already. Yeah, we did that already, so we really wanted to talk about this article from the New York Times. Did cell phone bans work? New study finds mixed results, and I think we ought to talk about it because I don't care what the study says.

0:13:54 Thomas: That well so yeah it's a New York Times article what is it specifically saying though we gotta

0:13:54 Eli: I mean

0:14:00 Tom: Let me, because I actually, I have the article called up, and so, Eli, I know you want to focus on the parts of the study where it failed. So I think importantly, it failed. This is important. Yeah. It failed to change test scores

0:14:10 Eli: That's my general approach to everything but that is true for that

0:14:15 Thomas: Okay wait

0:14:15 Tom: And it failed to do anything about bullying. However, teachers are thrilled with the change. They report fewer distractions from personal cell phone use and students in schools with strict bans reported a greater sense of personal well -being.

0:14:31 Thomas: Angela Duckworth is on this huh she's one of the listed

0:14:33 Tom: What I don't know who that is I have no idea

0:14:37 Eli: Who's angela duckworth

0:14:36 Thomas: That's interesting oh okay sorry isn't she the grit person that am I getting the wrong name nope if you guys don't know I'm probably wrong sorry I'll

0:14:42 Eli: Who

0:14:42 Tom: I don'T have any idea what you're talking about

0:14:45 Thomas: Silently disregard me no no tammy duckworth no

0:14:46 Eli: Is she the lady who got her leg shot off in the war and republicans are always like she doesn't know shit

0:14:51 Thomas: Angela yeah I'm right angela duckworth is the one who did that like grit stuff you know like she had a ted talk and was yeah it was a how do you not you guys know

0:14:59 Tom: It's a sandpaper reference I

0:15:01 Eli: You keep saying the word grit seems like a smart thing

0:15:01 Thomas: Everything usually about this

0:15:01 Tom: Think no I have I have books about grit at the house actually yeah I'm just fucking with you okay

0:15:04 Eli: Tom only knows moral panics and I only know celebrity deaths yeah

0:15:04 Thomas: Yeah she kind of start well they just did they just did a um if books could kill on grit the book like her book and it's kind of interesting apparently she started the whole grit thing but then was like actually it's bullshit after but people are still doing it like but she's she's a name on the on the study which is interesting I didn't

0:15:20 Eli: I love when people do that

0:15:25 Thomas: Notice it until just now sorry yeah

0:15:26 Eli: I'm always impressed when someone's like hey fuck me that's always awesome because look I it's easy for me to be like hey I didn't see a yik yak but it's way harder when you have a new york times best -selling book to be like so there weren't a million little pieces right it's

0:15:42 Tom: That is interesting I fucking forgot about that

0:15:42 Eli: Fucking that guy just got caught he didn't actually turn around but you know what I'm saying like they're gladwell was big on the fucking blinky part or whatever that

0:15:50 Thomas: That that shit was stupid

0:15:50 Eli: That stupid your eyes can tell things right away thing yeah he's been pretty harsh on that and he wrote a part two where he was like ah here's the thing about not being a scientist

0:16:00 Thomas: Yeah all his books are dumb, though.

0:16:00 Eli: Here's a thing we need just a scientist who can write a single sentence solves that problem but nope they're all fucking nose down into an andy weir book so we We don't, we gotta, that's true.

0:16:14 Tom: But then what would jonah lair make up for a living me yeah

0:16:14 Eli: Yeah, we need professional liars to make us feel like science is understandable. So good, so good.

0:16:17 Tom: I loved jonah lair so much but it fucking hurts me yeah all right so I think like what's important is that the really most like easily measured items like did it change test scores no did it adjust bullying no it didn't if that's what we're looking for if that was the goal of getting cell phones out of schools total failure like total failure it had no appreciable impact on that at all. I will say though, that like, if students have a better sense of wellbeing and the teachers are like, yeah, they're less distracted. I'm like, that's enough.

0:16:50 Tom: Like that's enough. Cause like for me, when I look at this and I'm really curious for you to take, like the cost benefit here is there's no cost to this. There's no, there's no downside at all, but people have not had cell phones for most of schooling and human history. Like it's okay.

0:17:01 Eli: You find out your dad died 20 minutes later.

0:17:08 Eli: Yeah, and your dad was just as dead that 20 minutes earlier.

0:17:10 Tom: You know, nobody's life was that impacted we think of it as this like necessary thing like water but it's like we know it's not true right like we no it's fine it's

0:17:13 Eli: Yeah. What, are you gonna fucking tweet at the school shooter? You're fine.

0:17:22 Thomas: I would say, OK, here's what blows my mind, because when we were first talking about this, I was like, yeah, I don't even care what the data says. You shouldn't have a cell phone going in class like I just don't think that. Yeah I didn't think that was going to like improve everybody's life. Well, but here's the thing. If you read the article, it sounds like if I'm understanding this correctly, the study is 110 pages, so I'm not going through that. But the article says that the control group was schools that also limited cell phone use so they didn't compare it to like everybody

0:17:35 Tom: Ubiquitous in school ubiquitous and classes you know yeah just to open usage

0:17:51 Thomas: Has cell phones out but it says okay so from the article those control groups typically also limited cell phone used but less strictly they sometimes allowed students to use phones between classes or to keep them as long as they stayed hidden from view cell phone uses climbed at those schools too but not by nearly as much as the ones that used yonder and apparently yonder is like this fucking this is like product research bullshit yeah so this could be bullshit yeah

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0:18:26 Tom: So yeah I just I guess I feel like just fucking don't have yours when a lot of the classrooms they walk in and the teachers like great put your phone in this like they've you've got basically like one of those shoe things that you.

0:18:37 Eli: You got a shoe thing.

0:18:38 Thomas: I do think they should have that yeah

0:18:38 Tom: Yeah, and then it's great. Yeah So you just you can't you you have your phone in the classroom, but you can use it at all Yeah as a teacher, how do you feel about it?

0:18:43 Eli: I might have to do a shoe. Yeah, I mean, I tell you, I love my students. I've always been pretty open about out use your cell phone when you need your cell phone I taught one class that required quiet concentration this year because it wasn't like a activity class and the amount of times I had to like do the the nice guy lip purse you ever seen that you know I'm talking about someone's on a cell phone and you do half now listen very closely this is important you do have a kiss in their direction not a full

0:19:14 Thomas: What

0:19:15 Tom: All right, so Eli kisses his students. That's what he said You heard it here.

0:19:16 Thomas: Yeah yeah what's happening right now

0:19:16 Eli: Kiss you just move your lips forward enough. And that language is, I see you have a cell phone. We both know you shouldn't have a cel phone. Please put that away. And I had to do it a bunch.

0:19:30 Tom: I also think it's really important practice for young people to Have to exist in a space where 50 minutes goes by where they have to concentrate on something thing entirely because that's a really hard thing for me to, I'm 48 and I have a cell phone addiction like everybody else, especially because of my work. I am glued to my cell phone. I carry it with me room to room. I care it with me without even thinking about it. Like I'll carry it with me to just like, if I go get water in another room, I grab my phone and walk. Like it's just, it's crazy. That's crazy person behavior. It's pathological. So I think it's really a good thing just as its own thing just to be like hey you know what you can exist for 50 whole minutes without a distraction box like you can actually be bored a little and that's a good thing too like there's a value to being bored pass a note to another kid you know like

0:20:22 Thomas: Yeah do drugs fucking make out

0:20:25 Eli: To a hate crime. Oh, have you tried being homophobic? That was a big thing for me in high school. It was really fun.

0:20:30 Thomas: Drive drunk come on live a little

0:20:32 Eli: Get in there. So this makes me happy for a lot of reasons. And I want to be very clear that the science on cell phones being bad is unquestioned. There is so much fucking evidence that cell phones are bad. Social media is bad for you.

0:20:48 Tom: And all the studies start off with fucking duh and then they go into it right

0:20:51 Thomas: Wait for for who for

0:20:53 Eli: Yeah, everyone, every, name a thing, name it, plants. They erode the cover of your books. Yeah, they're all, cell phones Are bad for everyone and everything. Thing but since most of us are addicted to cell phones the only people who are willing to ban them are crazy people who have to tell a crazy lie in order to ban the cell phone right they can't just say I think cell phones are pretty bad for you and there's a lot of evidence that they're bad for you no they bought a bunch of mantrasori blocks and they're pretty sure that if their kids not on roblox they would be inventing the next time machine so they go well if we were to ban cellular phones in school classrooms yeah I am certain that little Jimeneth my son who's never made eye contact with anybody

0:20:56 Thomas: What plants oh but I just bought the new plant phone the next time machine I'm sick of this current time machine yeah I just need it they need to iterate on that whole time machine

0:21:34 Tom: Yeah because these 1 .0 time machines are bullshit yeah

0:21:45 Thomas: Thing yeah

0:21:45 Eli: I'm sure he would be socially robust if he were allowed to just play with a wooden duck at school and his test scores will magnify and so the reason we have these bullshit metrics and this is what makes me so happy about this study is it's just fact checking a bunch of lies that the The scientists never asked us to make up about cell phone bans, right? The scientists were never like, if we stop people from having cell phones for five hours a day, there will be no more bullies. The scientists Never said that. Some mom on a mom group was like, I'm pretty sure that crack million would have a real social safety net. If only cell phones were banned from 9 a .m. to 3 p .m.? And because people are so fucking stupid, they can't even read the study. Again, the studies back up their bullshit. You can just be like, cell phones are bad for, and then say a noun, and you're right. But people have to make up a crazy lie. It's like the fucking White House correspondent's thinner shooter guy. There's so much bad about that situation, and then they have to be like... It was a false flag by a famous alcoholic incompetent Cash Patel to get Trump a ballroom bill. By the way, hey, folks, I'm not on social media anymore, but my wife tells me when there's an especially juicy social media. And if you would like to watch our dear,

0:22:25 Thomas: Crack million yeah

0:23:13 Eli: Sweet friend Thomas Smith drowning, physically drowning in his attempt to help other people know true things about the universe.

0:23:17 Thomas: They probably already have you can't you can't start this conversation I'm just gonna start fucking yelling

0:23:27 Eli: I can. I can and I will.

0:23:30 Thomas: I can't fucking can we all grow the fuck up you know what the number one response to me is from all these assholes you're trying to say false flag didn't really happen the number one response is like you're being really mean about that not being you know like it's nobody can even argue they're just like I can't believe that you would say that it was dumb to believe those conspiracy theories that's it like that's the number One thing because nobody can actually argue them and they don't want to even admit that they're that but they just keep being like I mean you can understand like people People don't believe stuff because the administration, it's like, I don't fucking care. Like, this is wrong. It's easily debunked. Like, why are we having a conversation?

0:23:45 Eli: So you're saying George Bush was a good president and that's why 9 -11 happened because George Bush was an amazing president?

0:24:22 Thomas: I keep almost making this post, but it might as well be like they're claiming Donald Trump did a triple backflip. And I'm like ,I don't think he did. For one, those never happen. Like, nobody does it. Maybe, maybe there's been one triple back flip ever. Maybe. I don'T think Trump can do it. And then they're like, oh, yeah, well, he said he didn't do it. And I'm like, yeah. So so we did like, no, you can't just say because he said he didn'T do a triple backflip. That means I bet he did a triple backflop because he always lies. That's not how it works. I can't always lie my way into being superhuman. Oh, I went to space.

0:24:47 Eli: He did it. He's not like a sci -fi character where everything he says becomes a lie.

0:25:03 Thomas: Yeah, magically.

0:25:01 Tom: Right yeah I like I don't want to like live too far down this road but like I was talking about this with cecil the other day and I I really have come to the conclusion that conspiracy theories have moved away from what people believe by and large to what they find useful rhetorically and politically to say out loud and I think it's more the second one than it is the first one and I Think it's a problem to fight the first fight because it's like well the right has been using conspiracy theory to great effect for a long time

0:25:34 Thomas: Oh, see, I had this conversation, too. Do. I don't think they're using it. Yeah. No, sorry to interrupt. No I see your point. I think it's a valid point to think about.

0:25:36 Tom: And I THINK that there's some rhetorical yeah go on no I so I think like if we debunk like the truth of it but people aren't actually that concerned with what's true so much as they are concerned with creating an effect then we're we're talking past each

0:25:53 Thomas: Yeah so here's the cool thing about this is that we've all three of us have existed in exclusively the circle of people who's been the this for conspiracy theories for everything else. So we're like hey you shouldn't believe those and also you know there's reasons these people believe this stuff that you know it doesn't have to do with actual fact beliefs it's an emotional thing it's a psychological thing and then it's as though that's our podcast that's all of every this movement for pretty much everything and then all of a sudden half of us were just like okay but this conspiracy theory and then I'm like no factually that's not true and then they're like wait a minute you have to speak nice to me because we decide and I'm like no you know you know all this you're already in that conversation it's not you know what I mean I'm not going to a different group of people it's this we're in the room right now like you were here for all the other ones and they literally will tell me yeah no but these that's different Like it's not different.

0:26:39 Eli: We did this. Yeah.

0:26:41 Tom: Other yeah yeah

0:26:55 Eli: It's like how richard dawkins is wrong about literally everything except whether or not there's a god do you guys see that he thinks claude is is sentient it fucking rules and yeah claudia as he calls her and what's really funny about that is like it makes me go like am I wrong about whether or Not there's A god because I thought

0:26:59 Thomas: Yeah. The Claudia. Yeah, you mean Claudia? Yeah.

0:27:03 Tom: No oh my god oh my lord no

0:27:17 Thomas: Yeah yeah.

0:27:17 Eli: This guy there's no way he He accidentally landed on good arguments on just one possible topic. Like, you can't just be right about one thing. It's about the process by which you arrive at stuff. And then you realize that it's really just about, again, what you said. It's just about like, what are we invested in? And to be fair, look, nobody empathizes more with the notion of truth.

0:27:45 Eli: Nobody feels that more deeply than Jaboi. Boy but there is this notion of like it's a little rude of you to point out that I'm lying when other people have been lying for so much I'm just trying out lying and you're this is like my fourth lie ever and you're being SO FUCKING MEAN ABOUT IT LIKE JUST LET ME LET ME TELL HERE'S WHAT I SHOULD SAY HERE'S What They Should Say They Should Be Like Thomas Let Me Tell One Or Two Lies to see if I like it yeah

0:28:00 Thomas: God it's so fucking stupid. I can't. I'm sorry. All right.

0:28:14 Thomas: I, there are people who have said that like they're like, literally there are people who are like, Hey, and, and that's why, like, I, I think it's not a crazy thought necessarily. I think there's a valid like point to make that like, hey, they've been doing it and now, you know, turnabout or fight fire with fire. And I just think that reverses the causation. I D I think that people, they're pointing to like, well, now people are believing conspiracy theories about Trump and that will spread it. It's good. And it's like, they are not listening to us in either case. It is because they also are starting to hate trump the conspiracy theories come first for them they're not listening to us about it so we ought to keep our fucking circle in the world we ought to keep ourselves in the facts otherwise we're not we're going to lose it you can't just decide well we'll do a little bit of non -reality based thinking here and then we'll just see how that goes it doesn't that's not how it works it's not

0:29:02 Tom: Feel like we can just do a just the tip conspiracy. I don't know. I feel, come on, let me in there just for a minute, just to see how it feels. Come on.

0:29:02 Thomas: How fucking works yeah that is totally what they're trying to do god

0:29:05 Eli: Tom's been on board come on just to see how it

0:29:11 Thomas: And I also have gotten to the point guys you can you can stage an intervention I've gotten to the part where I I don't fucking care. If people are like, you got to be nice, they're going to be mad that you're calling. I don'T. You stop listening to me. I'm not going to do. I didn't spend 10 years or more of my life criticizing the other people who do the conspiracy theories to then be like, well, that's okay. When we do it, it's okay, it'S fine that they're. Fuck you.

0:29:35 Thomas: It's always dumb. It's always dumb. I don't care. And if you think, oh, you ought to be nicer, leave. I don't care. Everybody does tone policing because they can't actually argue it. So they just criticize me about like yes everything you said is right but like there's they just want to still be right for some they want to still like have their dumb beliefs and I don't care anymore fuck it

0:29:35 Eli: Feels you're like trotsky right who sort of realized that stalin was just using communism and you're like guys guys I think this stalin fella is not trying to redistribute the like put the hands of the people on the means of production and everybody's like oh yeah no we know we're going to be the kings now and you're like guys guys guys remember carl wrote a book and we all read it's like 11 pages we all ran it and we always said why are you carrying me somewhere oh poor thomas hey podcast listener I want you to know that whatever you decide is true I'm right there with you he already has to deal with me the thing that's so wonderful about the truth being malleable to me is that if we

0:30:33 Thomas: Yep yeah I already have to deal with eli I don t

0:30:43 Eli: Just logged on collectively and you and noah and maybe three other smart people like maybe marsh right no question if marsh was on board I'd be like fuck it's all fucking faking absolutely like that's the notion that I would see a post by marsh and be like well let me see for myself like can you fucking imagine marsh could post literally Literally anything you want. And here's the thing, and I don't want to give him an idea for a prank because it's a pretty good one. You know how you can post things that are like block for everybody except this group of friends? Marsh should make a post every three days that's just for me because I don' t fucking check who his audience is. That's just like lizards attack again. And I'd be like, fuck, that's a real problem, I guess.

0:30:54 Thomas: Oh yeah like if we decided to do the conspiracy theories yeah yeah yeah I agree with that yeah right god well you know what's funny is that is actually bringing back to the richard dawkins thing that is actually a lot of what happened to those fuckers I remember them specifically having these conversations where and it was a long time ago where they actually it might have been in the the original fucking like atheists for horsemen video where they're like well I trust you know I trust that you will have checked your source on something and I remember thinking like oh yeah okay that's pretty reasonable and then you think of where they got to and they all did that to each other where they are just well he would have checked that this fucking trans thing is bullshit or he would check you know and then they just talked each other into believing all this dumb numbshit. Yep. Yep, sure is. Sure is. He respects the pronouns of a computer.

0:32:01 Eli: I would check that. And now they think Claudia is alive. It's weird that he gives more credit to the claim of femininity to a computer than he does actual trans women, huh? That's a real bummer. That's a real bummer. Heath could have scissor -kicked him in the chest and he didn't. Think about that. Next time you're about to respect Heath Enright, podcast listener, know that he could have been on top of Richard for two and a half minutes solid before the cops would have gotten there. Could have done any of a series of imaginative things and he didn't because he doesn't really care but I do back

0:32:49 Ad: [Ad break 3 — ad music]

0:32:51 Tom: All right so back to the cell phone thing eli all

0:32:53 Eli: To the cell phone thing so I think this is really funny because this is so again the cellphone companies obviously wanted this to fail and I to me this new york times article reeks of fucking like our buddy jeff bezos asked us to make an article called cell phones why not why not cell phones

0:33:13 Thomas: Well, no, but that's no, no. But actually, this is why it's confusing. The study is partially funded by Jeff Bezos. And so they're trying to what's actually weird is they would want the study effect to be like wow this is amazing because they want the stupid nutsack that you put your that the amazon nutsack that you put your phone In that they're making they would want that to be super effective the New York Times is saying it wasn't as effective so I guess you know what I mean like the biases in the study if anything would be in the study not in the New York times article along those lines but that doesn't mean yeah it could be could be yeah

0:33:45 Eli: Or both could be both yeah but what's exciting to me about this is like this is such an easy conversation right like there are very few we might as well be having the should kids smoke cigarettes argument right now as a society right it is just so clear what the answer to this is and again just speaking to what we were talking about the good guys don't care what is true so because they made up a bunch of crazy lies about why test scores would be higher why would test scores be higher because your cell phone's not in

0:34:20 Thomas: Maybe like you're paying attention in class a little more I don't know it could could be something

0:34:22 Eli: School maybe but they made up a crazy stupid lie and now the lie's not true and so now a bunch o' people are gonna it's so for those of you who missed it in 2014 and 2015 a buncha anti-feminists made up a bunch a lies and me and thomas destroyed our psyches debunking those lies over and over again it feels like you ever have an anti-feminist tell you like the rule of thumb thing isn't real yeah that's the one

0:34:46 Thomas: Like because from that movie that

0:34:47 Eli: That christina hoff summers lied about it and then you read the whole quote and it's like and by the way you fucking punch her right in the mouth or whatever it is right like that thing it's this for cell phones right it's just like someone making up a lie about a disambiguation of an untruth I just think it's fucking I think it'S GREAT

0:34:55 Thomas: Sort of

0:35:04 Tom: It feels like we studied the wrong things and came up with the wrong result anyway uh how do you guys feel well everybody just inherently knows we shouldn't have these fucking things in the classroom awesome awesome it's not going to change anything like if you like poll parents you could walk up to every parent in america and be like hey should the kids have a cell phone I mean there's a study that says their test scores didn't go up I feel like every sane parent would be like well no if I can get these phones out of the goddamn classroom of course not I don't care about their test scores

0:35:15 Thomas: Remember that's what I'm saying yeah they shouldn't be in the fucking classroom yeah I don't care if their test scores went down they should yeah

0:35:40 Eli: Can't ask ChatGPT what the answer to six plus seven is anymore and it told me to kill myself solid point

0:35:48 Tom: There's a little bit of a pushback that I think is interesting and warranted you guys have heard about what australia has done right when they banned social media for kids under

0:35:58 Eli: They gave them guns instead

0:35:58 Tom: 16 so there's just a complete ban in Australia on social media for kids under 16 and social media companies were like we can't figure out how to do it and australia was like well then you'll get fined fucking enormous amounts of money and they were like yeah exactly oh

0:36:13 Eli: Yeah hey we figured out how to do it it's actually crazy easy it's super

0:36:15 Thomas: Every time that's how I currently feel about all there's a lot of pushback on the age verification like ah there's no you know and privacy it's like there's got to be a way you know I don't think the uk is doing it right but there's got to be a way fucking figure it

0:36:28 Eli: See I don't like it because then how will you know that she's 18 wait what kind of age verification were you talking about sorry no no you're talking about a different thing No, just forget it. You do a new thing.

0:36:32 Thomas: Out sorry what I think

0:36:33 Tom: Right oh my

0:36:41 Eli: Never mind. Crazy. Stupid.

0:36:41 Tom: God so you're this is this is interesting because I would have thought you'd be on a different side Not your pro-age verification like Thomas.

0:36:46 Eli: No, no. I think that shit's awful.

0:36:51 Thomas: They should do it by the device so I think in principle if we can have age you know ages for drinking ages for smoking age for we have ages for a bunch of things but then if this thing they're like well but it's a phone so you can't, it's like, I don't know. There's gotta be a way, figure it out. I don't care.

0:37:08 Tom: I feel the same way. It feels crazy to me to say we can figure out all of these other technological solutions. I mean, hell, like to some degree, there are people saying, well, we'll just figure out a technological solution of climate change. I mean it will all work itself out, right? It will figure out a technological solution to everything, but figuring out how old a user of a cell phone is?

0:37:27 Tom: Oh, that is just beyond us and we'll never be able to know.

0:37:27 Thomas: Yeah, exactly. And you know, all the companies already know not only our age, but the age of our pets and the age of the next pet we might get. Yeah, they know everything. They already know it. They actually already know it. It's just a fucking bullshit thing. They want more business. So they're going to be putting, that's the thing I never know. And this isn't like a conspiracy thing. I haven't looked into it. I never knew like, okay, which of these studies that people are referencing about whatever

0:37:38 Eli: And where your eyeballs are, but the age of those eyeballs?

0:37:56 Thomas: Anonymity whatever like which of those is going to be funded by whomst and like what is going to be good info out there. I haven't looked into it. I haven't checked but like I don't know.

0:38:04 Eli: I hate age verification for a lot of reasons, and some of them are good, but those are boring. Let me hit you with a great reason why I hate age verification, and I think really take this into your heart. Tom, is your heart open? Okay. Asked and answered.

0:38:16 Tom: No. Why would you think it was? That's crazy. What? No. No. Yeah.

0:38:21 Eli: All right. Right. Here's why I think age verification is bad, because if your kids do not see hardcore Internet pornography, the people who will teach them about sex are sex educators. And if you have ever met or heard a sex ed, when I say I would rather spin the wheel on the dark web and have my son watch 12 hours of it a day, Than I would rather one of these fucking undercut sporting sex educators come in with their charts and their condoms to give the most milquetoast fucking formalist version of sex possibly imagined by an overfunded nonprofit. Yes, exactly. By an overfunded non-profit I would rather my child die in a school shooting than be visited by a properly trained sex educator and not a lot of parents are brave enough to admit that but we're all thinking it alright

0:39:02 Thomas: Are you into gorm shit. I'm into heavy gorm heavy gorn porn.

0:39:06 Tom: Yeah. Wouldn't want anything gormless without gorm. To say that yeah there's not a lot yeah right yeah nope

0:39:22 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. We're all thinking. We sure aren't

0:39:31 Clip: DEAR OLD DAD

0:39:38 Eli: Gentlemen before we go the prosecution moved their case using a cigarette found stuck at the end of a semi -automatic they called it a smoking gun Tom only knows moral panics and I only know celebrity deaths

0:40:39 Thomas: Drugs fucking make out

0:40:42 Tom: I feel like we can just do a just the tip conspiracy no

0:40:46 Eli: The thing that's so wonderful about the truth being malleable to me Tom is your card open?