DOD272: "Am I the Asshole?" Asks World's Biggest Asshole

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad, that's my thing I know now what I can offer you that no one else can Complete and under-dependent I'm a man, I'm sensitive I need to feel loved, I need part of being a father that I enjoy

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's pretty sure you've wasted your life. I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:37 Thomas: Wait, but you already did the intro for this one last time. Are we still one in the future?

0:00:42 Tom: No, I just wanted everybody to know that I'm pretty sure they've wasted their lives. Yeah, that was actually really personal.

0:00:42 Eli: Ooh. Yeah. And when a podcaster is pretty sure you wasted your life, you know, you are in dire straits.

0:00:48 Thomas: Yeah, that's well,

0:00:51 Tom: Hey, can I abuse our audience, our goodwill, my position of some authority? I want to give a quick shout out to one of my favorite people in the world, Matt MacGyver. He and his lovely wife today are having their second baby. Like she is in labor today, right now. I got a text message from him this morning. So he's a listener to the show and he is a very, very, good friend of mine and a great guy. She's in labor right now, as I understand it. So pretty exciting. So big love, Matt. Just wanted to shout that out. This is

0:00:58 Thomas: What else is authority for?

0:01:01 Eli: Go

0:01:10 Thomas: Oh Nice. Congrats.

0:01:24 Eli: Matt. Matt, it gets so much easier. Don't even count the first three months. You just cannot count it to like what you feel like as a human being. You've just got to make it through the way she's currently pushing a baby out her front hole. You have to push your life out of your brain.

0:01:41 Thomas: Wait, did you say second baby? Did I hear second?

0:01:43 Tom: The second one this is the second one

0:01:43 Thomas: Yeah, so I was like Eli What the fuck are you talking about? You don't know anything about having more than one kid

0:01:43 Eli: Yeah, you just got it. So, you you know.

0:01:49 Eli: No, yeah. A second kid is great because you get to turn to everybody in your life and be like, it's so much harder, and nobody told me!

0:01:54 Tom: Yeah except for literally everybody

0:01:58 Eli: Except for everybody.

0:01:58 Tom: Like I'll tell you what I love them but matt if you're like hey man you didn't say I fucking told you guys I called you on the phone matt

0:02:05 Thomas: Well here's the thing though if you want to make having two kids easier the way to do it is to have three because then you're like okay I was completely wrong yeah yeah then you just fucking yeah oh

0:02:14 Eli: That's right. And then you're like, oh, I miss having two. Mm -hmm.

0:02:18 Tom: Yeah see I'll say this if you've got four you don't even have to get their names right most of the time like I don't know I'm just like I know just like some of them will feed the it's fine.

0:02:27 Thomas: Wait wait is he having a remy never mind this is easy you can do whatever if you're not having a remy it's not even parenting I don't

0:02:33 Tom: It's the easiest thing, easiest thing in the world.

0:02:34 Eli: Just do whatever you want.

0:02:34 Thomas: Even know what are you complaining about oh

0:02:38 Eli: Do you know what no one in the history of the world has ever said? I think I was a better parent to my second kid.

0:02:43 Thomas: Man but what if your second kid is just the best human ever created and then everybody else is

0:02:45 Eli: That's really where I hit my stride. That's where I did a great job. You mean middle child syndrome, the most something so stereotypical they made a whole TV show that both you and Tom enjoy about it?

0:03:01 Thomas: Impossible yeah well except that also arlo's like he gets all the good treatment because he's the best you know like normally it's like the middle kid's the the best and then you ignore them is that the normal

0:03:14 Eli: No, they're the best because they get ignored and then everyone turns out to laugh. You've seen the television show.

0:03:20 Tom: Malcolm in the Middle is sort of based on that, on that idea, although only sort of loosely. Yeah, yeah, right,

0:03:23 Thomas: Thing yeah that's what I said so yeah so it's uh it's I'd say it's the opposite with arlo because he gets all the

0:03:29 Tom: Right One of these days, we should do the nonsense of birth order theory for this show. I remember when I was a, I was a young guy. I was maybe 13 or 14. And I was just digging through my grandparents' books for something to read on a visit. And there was a book that they had. I don't even know why. It was a birth order theory. And so I was like, well, I'll read literally anything because that's just the place I was at. I would read literally everything that was a work at the time.

0:03:36 Thomas: Attention yeah

0:03:56 Tom: So I was sure I'll write this book on birth order theories. And then I'm 13 or 14. So I don t know the difference between good ideas and bad ideas. I know that things that are are in books have been taught to me to be true right because like the teachers give you books and books are probably true and there's a whole library full of true things and I read it and I remember being like I'm not sure this is true at like 13 as a dumbass I remember being like this is clearly nonsense

0:03:56 Thomas: Wow

0:04:07 Eli: Are true. Yeah, of course.

0:04:08 Thomas: Yeah yeah right

0:04:19 Eli: Yeah. Yeah. No.

0:04:27 Tom: This is just nonsense there's

0:04:27 Thomas: And tom was actively into eugenics at the time so it'S

0:04:31 Eli: Yeah. He was he

0:04:32 Tom: No reason for the at the time disclaimer that's hey phrenology is

0:04:32 Thomas: WEIRD

0:04:34 Eli: Was measuring skull nodules on the playground. He was really into it. But gentlemen do you know the only thing worse than phrenology why it's the auto ads the skull bumps of your podcasting experience but you make those go away over at patreon.com/dearolddads where you'll get a commercial free version of every single show little extended bonus parenting story at the end bonus episodes once a month whatever the smiths damn well feel And you can get all over it over at patreon.com/dearolddads. Exactly.

0:05:06 Thomas: That. Okay, I get Lydia back on so you stop insulting us. Doesn't have the guts to do it to her face.

0:05:13 Eli: It's not fun. It's no fun. Her feelings just get hurt. And I'm like, ah, that sucked. I think I tried it once on one game ever. And I was like, the vibes were so awful. I just instantly was texting Noah, like cut this from the podcast and burn all records of this roast. Patreon .com for such dear old dads rip into it.

0:05:32 Tom: Legit all

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0:05:41 Tom: Right so I grabbed this little ditty from uh reddit the cesspool of the internet but I thought this was great there's like fucking like 30 things in here that are all wrong so it'd be great to pick this apart. So let me go ahead and read this to you guys. Yesterday evening, my wife invited her friend to dinner. We hadn't seen her in a long time. It was great to catch up. But when we started to discuss what was going on at work, things seemed to really run off the rails. My wife's friend is a high school English teacher, and she really seems to have a bee in her bonnet about the rampant use of AI in writing assignments. She also laments the lack of reading and general comprehension of course material.

0:05:51 Thomas: It's the best. Okay.

0:06:16 Tom: She says there are still a few students who generally try, but but most of them are quite lazy. As I was listening to her explanation, I couldn't help but wonder what the problem was. I was told to read some truly painful books in English classes growing up, and I very rarely actually read them. In fact, very few of my classmates read them either. We just read Sparknotes, and it was generally enough to pass if you were a good enough writer, which I was. I honestly just see AI as a more developed version of SparknotES. It has all the information about whatever book you're reading and gives you inspiration for how to structure papers.

0:06:48 Thomas: Like SparkNotes, it writes the entire thing for you instantaneously.

0:06:52 Eli: Yep. You fall in love with it and it tells you to kill yourself because it's Daenerys Targaryen. Yeah.

0:06:54 Tom: And it tells you to kill yourself, right? Yeah.

0:06:57 Thomas: Well, SparkNotes did tell me to kill myself. That's the difference. It was a weird hallucination.

0:06:59 Tom: As long as you don't copy from AI word for word, I really don't see the problem with using it.

0:07:05 Thomas: Oh, okay. Well, they're doing that, so.

0:07:07 Tom: I told her all of this and asked her if she thought it was going away anytime soon. I also told her that many of the books I had to read in school are likely even less relevant today than they were then. This made my wife's friend really quite annoyed. She told me that many parents shared my perspective. As someone who has a very good job yet never reads any books, especially fiction, I told her that her views were outdated and perhaps she would be more at home working as a librarian or in a bookstore she uh

0:07:38 Thomas: Well, we'll see.

0:07:35 Eli: And she was offended by this, you say. She took offense to your mild riposte to her statement?

0:07:42 Thomas: Yeah. At her saying, quit your job because I know more about it than you do. That's weird.

0:07:49 Tom: War eventually we decided to just drop it because she was being so unreasonable and obtuse

0:07:54 Eli: I have decided we are no longer speaking about this because of you. How's your chicken piccata? I was considering getting that. And then I went with the salad and I think it's worse.

0:08:07 Tom: But but this is when I really got yelled at after she left my wife said that I made a complete ass of myself

0:08:14 Thomas: So the wife's an idiot too, huh?

0:08:14 Tom: I assumed she was I

0:08:16 Eli: God, don't you hate it when you're surrounded by everyone you meet's an asshole?

0:08:21 Tom: Assumed

0:08:21 Thomas: Yeah question why is everybody wrong

0:08:26 Tom: She was joking by mimicking her friend's demeanor and I laughed out loud but this only seemed to make her angrier

0:08:27 Thomas: That's my favorite thing oh god oh

0:08:34 Eli: Tom's

0:08:34 Thomas: I'm so sorry that is such a good I'm still sorry can you read that again I want to hear those two sentences again my apologies start with after because it's so that is gold that's my favorite I don't want to have ruined it with my

0:08:46 Eli: Been deleting the sentences as he reads them.

0:08:47 Tom: No it's hard it's it's hard to read off of these like screenshots like

0:08:48 Thomas: Interjection sorry I'll do it after she left my wife said that I had made a complete ass of myself I assumed she was joking by mimicking her friend's demeanor and laughed out loud but this only seemed to make her angrier that's so good

0:09:01 Tom: Do women

0:09:04 Eli: Jolly good bit of play there, my wife, whom I am married to.

0:09:09 Tom: Not like to to be laughed at? She said that her friend would likely never come over again since I insulted her job. I never insulted her job, only her outdated method of doing it. But even after telling my wife this, she wouldn't hang out with me and watch TV.

0:09:19 Thomas: Only her yeah

0:09:26 Tom: My wife's about to come home from work and I hope she isn't in a mood, but I don't know what I'm supposed to do. Was I supposed to lie? And pretend to be disappointed by a pretentious english teacher finding out that kids don't care about her class how didn't she already know that is beyond me I need to know if you think I was insulting or embarrassing with my behavior because I just don't see it am I the

0:09:26 Thomas: Oh My God, yeah

0:09:32 Eli: Kill yourself. Yes, yes.

0:09:43 Thomas: Yes I do oh my God you know how many many of this story must have to already exist for this to happen you know

0:09:53 Eli: Think about it this way. This is the first time this guy has been like I might be wrong on this one imagine I wish we could gather everyone in his life together and just be like hey everyone it's time to tell that story you have about dave and just every they're throwing elbows on the weight of the

0:10:16 Tom: Asshole

0:10:04 Thomas: Yeah yeah I think that's right I think think that's right oh god they'll be like literally there's not enough time left in the heat death of the universe to go through all of it there's no

0:10:24 Eli: Mic can you make us immortal so that we can we're kind of thinking it's like a brief stay in hell situation where each of us will take what amounts to an infinite amount of time to talk.

0:10:37 Tom: Asshole real

0:10:38 Thomas: Way oh my God, it's so good

0:10:38 Tom: Quick, I have a thought that just occurred to me with these AITAs is this what passes do you think for introspection with some of these fucking assholes like is this like actually the closest some of these people come to real introspection when they're like you You know, I wonder. Yeah.

0:10:57 Thomas: Well so that's the thing is that I think what I hope I have learned in my daily life and it might be different podcasts are different trying to be entertaining blah blah you You know, folks don't know me in my daily life, in my daily life. I think I have gotten way better at being not this asshole because there's nothing wrong with the thought. There's nothing right. There's something wrong with it, with the idea. If you're in a conversation being like, well, that's interesting. So do you think it's different than like when I had spark notes and I would, you know, like do all that. And then the teacher who's, you knows, does the job and like, is there every day and knows way more about this than you can answer. And you could like have the, there's not wrong with the thought. Have the thought ask the question it's amazing I've learned in life how many more things become not an asshole thing to say if you just ask them rather than decide you're right and talk as though you're you're casting wisdom down from heaven you know like it's Amazing how much different it's perceived if you're like is that different than spark notes like how much do you think like how much more are they getting from spark because I would I'll be honest I just took spark notes and And I wrote my whole essay based on that, you know, like you could just express it as a question and then people feel like, oh, it's an invitation to talk. You're trying to get my opinion, you know, and genuinely you're probably going to learn something because when you phrase something as a question, you're actually open to learning and hearing someone's opinion about it more than just dictating to them.

0:12:21 Tom: Well, this guy starts off basically being like, look, I obviously don't value literally anything about what you do and what you've dedicated your life to and the education of children in your field. So that's the that's right. That's the baseline assumption he goes into this conversation with is like, hey, you know, that thing where you probably have an advanced degree in this and, you Know, you've a relatively thankless job overall and like you probably got into it because you have a real passion and and love for

0:12:33 Thomas: Yeah. Or women or any other person. Mm-hmm.

0:12:55 Tom: The subject look I think all of that obviously that's nonsense I don't read especially fiction, right that's for freaking idiots that's four giant losers that you and there's clearly no reason we teach it yet somehow it's important enough that it's the it's literally out here at least, English and gym are the only two classes you have to take four years of. You don't have to think four years of math. You don't have to take four years of science. You have to pick four years history. You got to take for years of English and you got to think for years gym. Those are the Only four year requirements for a high school diploma. But obviously, you know, we should devalue that from the jump because you can read something through spark notes and get the fucking gist of it. Maybe I'm oversensitive to it as a guy with a fucking English degree who went to school to teach English. But, like, there is something to be said for not liking. Like, there's a legit, like—sometimes you get assigned a book you don't like. Okay, yeah. There's probably a reason for it, though, you know? There's Probably a Reason for it. You could ask. You could try to figure it out. You could wonder about it. You could even decide you were right, you now? But, to just throw away the entire field of study, it's like, you kids don't need to learn to read and write.

0:14:10 Tom: That's that's reading and writing they'll never use that I'm a computer coder and I don't need to learn to read and write like get the fuck out of here

0:14:15 Thomas: Definitely and I also think that like uh I can't remember where this came up but the other thing about those classes and you know I sucked at them but I still recognize the need for them is I bet you and if I were able to go back and do it again I would have way more fun of a time because I bet she those teachers would still love a conversation even if it was deeply critical of the book like I bet the from their kids from their kids.

0:14:42 Thomas: Oh yeah. They'd just be, they'd love to be like, well, so why didn't you like it? Or what, what about it do you think wasn't a whatever? And I bet they would love that. So even if the book's like, I don't know, you don't think they're good or something. It's still the experience of reading, critiquing something, discussing the ideas, you know, that's still very valuable. And that's exactly what you can't do very well from spark notes with personal experience. Let me tell you, I did a lot of spark notes. Yeah.

0:14:40 Tom: Yes they'd be thrilled yeah Like, I want to talk about this guy real quick, but like I do want to get on my soapbox real quick about one thing and I think that that is like because reading is something that you can do both for pleasure and as a field of study as opposed to many other things right we don't do science for pleasure the same way we read for pleasure, right? We're taught a lot of times as kids to read and then like, oh, how did you like this book? Did you enjoy reading that? And so we confuse the idea a lot OF times, I think very naturally, but we don't do any work to stop this. And I think it gets in everybody's way. We confuse the idea between whether we like something or whether there's value in it. And we do it mostly just for English. We don't do that for history. We don't doing that for science. We don't that as much for math. We don't to that for most other subjects because we haven't we've never like conflated entertainment with education for those subjects.

0:16:00 Thomas: Because everyone just hates math so no one thinks there's any like fun version of it yeah

0:16:04 Tom: But like, you don't say, 'Hey, how did you like that math book?'. Right.

0:16:08 Thomas: How'd you like seven times five was that pretty

0:16:11 Tom: So there is a really dumb thing that we do where we don't dispel the idea that like okay well there's sometimes you're going to read and you're gonna read for pleasure And then there's sometimes you're going to read because reading is something you can get other intellectual gain from. Instead, we confuse it as like, well, I didn't like it, so it was a bad time. Or I didn's like it so it's a bad book. When like, that's not the point of every book. And it would be dumb for us to think that that was the point of every time that we pick up a book and read that it's the same just joy like like playful kind of entertainment based moment that's not what it's not What every book is for. But we never dispel that idea. We never even address the idea that hey, you know, this isn't really about liking it in the same exact way that like learning about the reconstruction after the Civil War is not necessarily about liking something it's about actually there's a lot to be gained and cultural understanding and getting a better understanding of how people work and the psychology of groups and there's so much you can learn from literature but instead we focus on whether we liked it or not and when we do that I think we do this like enormous disservice to kids and to young people because we're just constantly focused on this question of literature as entertainment it's a weird space that like like nothing else occupies.

0:17:33 Tom: I know that has nothing to do with the rest of this, but like it makes me fucking crazy and it gets in the way of like people seeing literature as a field of study that is legitimate for entirely different reasons than whether you liked it or not, you know?

0:17:33 Thomas: Good hmm that's interesting I've never thought about that that's kind of a good point there's not any other subjects where that really happens

0:17:53 Tom: Yeah, and I'll tell you what, like when you major in English, you know what nobody cares about?

0:17:58 Thomas: Huh how good the yeah yeah

0:17:58 Tom: Whether you liked or not. Nobody ever asks you whether you like it or no. not that like if you were to be like didn't like it you people would look at you like you were made out of fucking moon rocks it's like the least relevant thing you could walk in the door with I

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0:18:20 Tom: I have a question too, like to start this off from the jump of the conversation but like when you get together with friends do you guys talk about work you don't have friends

0:18:27 Thomas: Oh man, I can't answer that because I just sit there and wait until the interaction's over because nothing's interesting to me anymore. Cause my brain's ruined. Yeah.

0:18:36 Eli: He's just sighing loudly.

0:18:39 Thomas: I hope that Lydia is around so I can just space out and not have to talk

0:18:45 Tom: Yeah eli what about you like do you guys get together and like talk work do you I fucking hate work talk Okay.

0:18:49 Eli: All the time. Yeah, with my friends. Yeah, so most of my friends are magicians, so

0:18:53 Thomas: Well, do you have friends that do stuff that's interesting at all? 'Cause yeah, I guess. Yeah. Okay. I guess that makes sense.

0:19:00 Eli: We talk a lot about their work, which is pretty exciting they're interested in my teaching and occasionally my podcasting podcasting's weird because they're so disconnected from it as a community like they're aware that's a thing I do but they're like still How's that? Is that okay? You okay, right? They're more more interested in my relationship to it than they are like how it's going right because it seems to be going fine I still have a job my shows aren't gone so they're just like how you doing and I'm like eh fine and then I talk about teaching and then we talk about their jobs and stuff but yeah we talk we talk work all the time and especially when it comes to like bitching oh my gosh I mean maybe it's just because me and my friends are a bunch of jews but like the first and I mean that literally the first two hours of every get together is just everyone go in a circle and say the complaints that if you said them to other people in your life they would try to fix these problems instead of empathizing

0:19:18 Thomas: Yeah. Still doing that. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Ah, hmm.

0:20:01 Eli: Right because if you go to your husband or your wife or your boss and you're like hey this bad thing is happening they go well how do I fix it how to make you feel better how does this reflect on the life that I have provided to you or the life that we share and if you get together with friends and you bitch they know 99 of the time unless it's a very specific problem that you just want them to be like that's right that guy is a fucking fucking asshole.

0:20:27 Eli: That's really what I need out of most of those conversations. Or just like in this English, I

0:20:31 Thomas: Were you saying, is that a Jewish thing or is that, uh, a friend that I wasn't sure if you were, isthat? Oh, okay.

0:20:35 Eli: I think it's a friend thing. I think the sheer magnitude of complaints is a Jewish thing.

0:20:40 Thomas: Oh, okay. That'd be kind of cool, though. If that was a cultural thing where everyone understands, like, no one fixes anything, we're just here to complain.

0:20:42 Tom: We're just grousing.

0:20:47 Thomas: I would like that. Yeah, I would Like that.

0:20:48 Eli: You cannot torture a genuine complaint out of a goy. I'll tell you right now. Goys, goys either do 'keep it on, keep it on', which is insane, right? You'll be like, oh my God, I heard you got hit by a car.

0:20:54 Tom: Shut

0:20:58 Thomas: Oh, my God. Wait, am I secretly Jewish? I think I need to look something up.

0:21:03 Eli: Better, you know, some ups, some downs. And you're just like, okay, okay, fucking thanks, Tolstoy character. It's fucking good. Man must have a place to go. All right. It's not what that book's about. Or, or, and this is the thing, goys break at the end and just deliver you the fucking most dark monologues but without feeling. So you'd be like, how you been, man? And I'm like, oh, not so good. Betty's leaving. She's taking the kids. And the only reason she's taking the kids is when she told them she was leaving, they begged her, begged her to take her. They said, 'We hate daddy'. We hate him so much. Anyways, I think I'm going to get the chicken piccata. I was considering the salad, but now. First of all, Jews tell a fucking story, right? You ever ask a goy to tell you a drama?

0:21:07 Tom: Up.

0:21:13 Thomas: What are you, Tom? Yeah. Yeah. Hmm.

0:21:53 Eli: Like, oh, what's going on? You and Jezebel don't talk anymore? Oh, yes, this whole thing. It's honestly pretty upsetting. Oh, my God. Jews are like, let me tell you what that bastard did to me. 1987, I'm born—I'm drinking milk I'm doing a great job. They give you the whole fucking thing it's the best yeah

0:22:12 Thomas: Nice, yeah that's way more

0:22:14 Tom: God, I find myself and you guys I've complained about my day job to you guys before but like I try to keep it short because I'm convinced nobody really cares about it like not really because it's like you don't know any of the characters you don't know any of the players like I'm just like, yeah I got to do this thing and it's a big chunk of work I don't want to do it I'm grouchy about it and that's like all I really want to say about it because everything else is just like hey so anyway there's this person you don' t know and let me describe him and I'm like I'm already bored like that. I think that for me, I'm just like, I don't want to do that. Like I'm already uninterested in trying to like, just, just know I'm grouchy. That's what I want you to know. I want to know I'm grouchy. And this is the reason why. So, all right. So this guy's wife's friend comes over and I guess like ,I also want to ask you this. Like if my wife's friend comes over, what I do is everything in my power to make sure my wife'S friend is having a

0:22:23 Thomas: Fun yeah so Good, yeah

0:23:12 Tom: Nice time. Right? Because that's my wife's friend. So like I will make food for them or I will bring them drinks or I'll make sure that they're comfortable. Like I will kind of play host, right? 'Cause I want my wife to do the work of visiting with her friend. And then I feel like my job is to like, make sure that I'm the grease. Yeah.

0:23:33 Eli: Get the fuck out of the room is your

0:23:35 Thomas: Yeah I was gonna say you're a way better person than me I just I'm just out I'm just like fucking a I get to go somewhere else

0:23:41 Tom: Well, sometimes I will, sometimes we'll hang out. Yeah, it depends. So it kind of depends on the vibe and the dynamics. So sometimes I'll just be like Yeah, you guys have a great time you know but like a lot of times yeah like I'll kind of just play host and just make sure that everybody is comfortable because then my wife doesn't have to host either right she doesn't have to do any of that labor she can just enjoy her time visiting with her friend but like I can't imagine doing anything even if my friend had like a job that But I was like, that is a useless job. You have a dumb, bad job.

0:23:57 Eli: Job right

0:24:08 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, you can't imagine insulting your wife's friend's entire existence

0:24:10 Eli: I operate NFT mines based on the people who were killed in Auschwitz but it's a celebratory version of it I want to be clear we're pro Auschwitz in our NFT mine I'd be like fucking great so who wants ice cream am I right ladies I'll be at the furthest grocery store from my house if you need me

0:24:15 Tom: Yes, dude. Yeah. Now, I will say 100 % as soon as her friend left, I'd be like, okay, the NFT mine thing. That is some crazy ass bullshit, right? We can agree. Like, I would gossip like crazy, right. Like, that's what my wife and I would do. It'd be, like, all right. So her job is fucking nuts, right, like that job is fuckin' nuts.

0:24:47 Eli: I wish my wife doesn't hate her friends she loves her friends and she's such a narc the moment her friend her friend will be like and that's when I decided to pierce my eyeball in the name of the vegetarian uniting community and I'm like, I'm so excited and she can see I'm revving up and she's like, I actually think it's really laudable of her. And I'm, like, goddammit, you fucking narc. You're a narc. Look, I don't want a polyamorous relationship or a kitchen table polyamory except I'd like one other bitch in the house besides me who I can just pull

0:24:53 Tom: Well, my wife doesn't hate her friends either. Yeah, no.

0:25:31 Eli: Aside and be like, did you see the fucking eyeball tattoo she got? That's fucking crazy. Because the problem is when you want to turn to someone and shit on the person who just left, especially if they're having a horrible time, right? Like they've caused themselves tremendous pain and now you want to laugh about it. And if you come in high with like, and now she's in the hospital, they get real nasty about it, they can be a real, a real grump.

0:25:59 Tom: I remember when I was a kid my dad had this like group of friends and they would get together once every however and they Would Play Trivial Pursuit So They Would Get Together At Whoever's House And They Would Have

0:26:09 Thomas: Cannot get a read on your dad. I don't understand him every story is contrary how many dads did you have was it just the one because he's working three jobs as a janitor and never home and and like you're tying on the floor but then he's playing trivial pursuit with his butt I don' know it's just it doesn't make any sense

0:26:12 Tom: I Just Just The One Yeah, about once a month or so he would get together with a kind of a rotating group of friends and they would play. They would have trivial pursuit night maybe once a month is too often I don't know how often they played but they played and it would be you know this time it's going to be at our house next time it's going to be a fucking jim's house or you know whatever it was I remember we would go if it was at somebody else's house we would go. We were kids my dad didn't always have a babysitter so we would go and you know sometimes they the other family would have kids we'd hang out with those kids sometimes they didn't we'd hang out in the basement watch tv or whatever it was, but we'd get back in the car and the first thing dad and lynn did was they would start like kind of gossiping about their friends a little bit right and I remember being like I called him out a little bit I was a littler kid you know at the time I was maybe nine or ten I'm like, 'Do you not like jim and janeel like what like what is happening and my dad and Lynn—like, they both looked so appalled. I remember this still—like, they both look so appalled and they're like no we love them I've later come to realize like no that's just what people do like they get all this information And then they're like, all right, now they're doing some weird shit.

0:26:59 Eli: Oh, it's the best. Yeah. Yeah.

0:27:25 Tom: Can we talk about the weird shit Jim and Janelle are doing?

0:27:27 Eli: They were worried they were raising a narc, Tom.

0:27:29 Tom: You know, right.

0:27:29 Eli: Tom, imagine your own child, a narc.

0:27:33 Thomas: Because I've gone so much the other way with my family I think I'm trying to inoculate against that because that's famously my dad just talked too much shit it was jolly because 'cause he didn't actually have friends. So all he did was talk shit about everybody. And then that—that's not good. So, uh, I just don't do it at all. Like it's, it's interesting. It's kind of, it's kind of satisfying in a way, like with my kids.

0:27:55 Thomas: I mean, I never like talk shit about really anyone at all, except maybe the mildest of things, you know, that's because I just don't want my kids to be in that negative shit talking mindset. It's just not healthy.

0:28:07 Tom: I want to be clear, too. Like, it's not always like it's not so much shit talking as it is like, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I like I also have people I know that listen to this show like we don't like it's not really shit talking, but it's like talking about the people that you just hung out with. No.

0:28:10 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, no, I was saying my version, my dad's version was, yeah, yeah.

0:28:20 Thomas: Tom's friends—Tom has shit-talked to every one of you so bad especially you bob I don't know, I'm just see if I can guess a name oh

0:28:22 Tom: No, but I'm sure that let's

0:28:29 Eli: Imagine Tom trying to shit talk. First of all, that implies that Tom has a negative emotion that he doesn't say out loud as it's happening.

0:28:36 Thomas: Tom's, oh Tom got it. I don't know what you're talking about on this tom's got

0:28:39 Eli: I don't like how this conversation's going. You failed. You have failed it. Just so you know. C minus.

0:28:48 Tom: Keep going with this email.. So like, let's set aside the AI stuff and how he's wrong about literally every substantive criticism that he makes. Like, cause it's all just the worst. Like everything this guy is saying is the worst and I want to throw him up against the wall and beat the shit out of him.

0:28:56 Thomas: It that's so good god it's so

0:29:03 Eli: As Tom was beating the shit out of me. I, the thing that I love the most about the beginning of this is that while another person's talking, his mind turns inward to have a conversation with his favorite person himself. Like, she's like, oh, I'll tell you, it's been so hard lately. You know what, me? I bet this is a lot like Sparknotes. Good observation, me. I wish she'd stop talking so I can tell her that thing I thought of with us together.

0:29:15 Thomas: Good oh

0:29:33 Tom: Okay so the so the friend he completely right in front of the friend for no reason no gain right they're like what is what does he hope to gain from this I was wondering about that when I was reading

0:29:44 Thomas: You don't understand his wife's friend is an idiot and wrong and he needs to like spread his knowledge to help her. That's what he hopes to gain.

0:29:51 Tom: It so he's just well actually in her

0:29:52 Thomas: Oh yeah. Yeah. Well, he's, he's a saint cause he's helping this idiot, you know, know that she's bad at her job. Obviously. I don't know. When did you understand about that time?

0:29:59 Tom: Right yeah all right so the wife's friend leaves and is obviously very annoyed right and then he's patting himself on the back for his inability or lack of desire to read fiction which is a weird flex very very very weird flex and then the wife's like hey you made an ass out of yourself and he fucking laughs at her, and then he's like I thought she would love to be laughed at don't

0:30:22 Thomas: That's the best one. Oh, it's the vest. It's the vast. God, that's the Vest detail.

0:30:29 Eli: Think

0:30:29 Tom: Women love it when you laugh at them when they're angry

0:30:31 Thomas: I thought she was doing a bit where she was acting like the other idiot that I was talking to. That was so good—God, it's so good yeah

0:30:39 Eli: About how little you would have to know your wife. I can tell when I've used the wrong, like, connector word in a sentence. I can feel it from miles away when I pissed off my wife. I'm Obi-Wan Kenobi being like, it was like 10,000 pissed-off wives all shouted out together because I left my shoes in the middle of the living room or plates on top of the dishwasher instead of in the sink. I think the notion that my wife would ever be upset at my behavior and I would think she was doing a character, a character of full on fucking persona.

0:31:13 Thomas: She's doing a bit yeah yeah how much you want to bet his wife never does humor in that register too like it's just totally completely like out of character oh that That'd be so good.

0:31:24 Eli: Of course not. My darling, I noticed today you've assumed a sort of role play and I want to say I'm enjoying it greatly.

0:31:35 Tom: I was expecting you to get a Jeff Dunham style, like ventriloquist dummy out of your friend here just at any moment. But I guess when I

0:31:42 Eli: You know, Jeff Dunham is my favorite comedian. I wish we had studied Jeff Dunham in school instead of classic literature.

0:31:44 Thomas: Yeah. Got something useful.

0:31:50 Eli: Literature he is so much better than the scarlet

0:31:45 Tom: The odyssey, that'll never pop up again.

0:31:57 Eli: Letter scarlet ahmed the dead terrorist am I right Oh, Jeff Dunham, you are so witty many of your puppets are just blackface yeah

0:32:09 Tom: God, I know so then this part of it I want to I want to focus on this part she said her friend would likely never come over again since I insulted her job I never insulted her job and then he says other words that don't matter I love the idea that this guy is this obtuse right and he's like well I mean I'll relay this story to you where I very clearly insulted her job and then in the same story I'm writing down and relaying this is less than

0:32:12 Ad: [Ad break 3 — ad music]

0:32:38 Tom: 500 words I will just be like, 'I will then gaslight you about the thing you could just go back and reread what the

0:32:45 Thomas: Maybe if you were better with English, you'd be able to lie about his stupid stories better. He's like, 'I can't go back and read the beginning of what I wrote.

0:32:45 Eli: Yeah maybe if you'd done some reading you'd have this sort of contextual ability to oh why

0:32:54 Thomas: SparkNotes—it's like somebody for me. Said I was right, yeah.

0:32:55 Tom: Fuck? Is there SparkNotes? I ran this through ChatGPT and ChatGPT said I was fine. I didn't do anything anything wrong but

0:33:00 Eli: Claude told me to kill myself, but I know that's just a thing it there's the one time claude is like look I know this is just a fun thing that I do, but I mean it for you

0:33:08 Thomas: Yeah. A fun thing that I do. Yeah. Everybody agreed we won't even get sued if I tell you to kill yourself.

0:33:10 Eli: This—I ran this by Sam Altman and he said

0:33:21 Tom: Then Like, I think the part that I want to focus on the most is this part because I think this is a very guy thing right this is a real

0:33:27 Thomas: Yeah, the whole thing. There's almost no female version of this thing.

0:33:30 Tom: Problem, no, no, no—but this part especially

0:33:31 Eli: If a woman told from this kind of perspective this would be like the beginning of her sad one woman novel right this is a psychotic episode the men live their whole lives like this. People tell this story about them at their funeral as a funny thing and women—if they do this it is their rock bottom they're like that's when I knew I needed to be

0:33:49 Tom: This yeah like what would be the like stereotypical like reversal it'd be like if somebody like came over and was like yeah I had a bad day doing this thing with the construction equipment is like oh your tonka trucks you just had a bad day with your Tonka trucks I'm devaluing you just drive around anyone can drive I mean everybody's got a driver's license that's basically nothing what do you mean I'm insulting to you like what the fuck what the f**k but this part this sentence here my wife is about to come home from work and I hope she isn't in a mood man there is so much where like dudes will just be like yeah she's just in a mood she doesn't have a legitimate complaint about my shitty, shitty, shitty behavior. It's just women and their moods which arise out of nowhere and attack us without our knowledge. That's what women's moods are.

0:34:23 Thomas: Exactly. Oh, boy. In a mood. Wow.

0:34:46 Tom: Am I right, guys? Women's mood.

0:34:46 Eli: Hospitalized yep they just appear like like a storm from a calm sea so many of the stereotypes about women are actually just true things about men right it's like she'll just start crying out of nowhere and it's he actually won't notice unless you start crying so So I'm

0:35:07 Tom: Well, and the only thing he cares about, too, he doesn't care that she's upset. He doesn't care that like maybe her relationship with her friend has been damaged he doesn't care that like maybe he's wrong he doesn'T like none of this matters all he cares about too the whole focus of this is like well now she's not gonna do things with me and for me because that's what she's for right right yeah oh she's gonna serve me a cold dinner

0:35:25 Thomas: Yeah. I bet dinner will be suboptimal tonight.

0:35:32 Eli: Just going to make a disgusting breakfast. Because as someone who is, I think, very similar to this man in a lot of ways, right? Because he's very convinced. He's very smart. And when other people talking, he's talking to himself about the conversation he's having with his favorite person, him, right. And he sort of is like, I have a bone mo in my head. But the difference is, I live in constant terror that the lovely people my wife has entered into her life will not want to be in her life because she married the personality golem that is me, right? It's not like I love to serve cheese and run out for Ben and Jerry's. It's because I livein' constant terror someone's gonna be like, Eli, what do you think? And I'm going to be like, and they're going to be like whoa, hey I asked your husband for a casual opinion and he vomited the worst meanest thing anyone's ever said to me and I am divorced. And she'd be like oh yeah sorry about him.

0:36:33 Eli: Like my whole life is just going don't say the things you think. Don't say the thing you think, say the think you think they want you to say. What do they want you to say? This seems like a nice thing to say, is this it? Uh -oh, they're looking, they look nervous.

0:36:48 Thomas: That must be hell.

0:36:48 Eli: Say it normal. Say it more normal.

0:36:50 Tom: I don't No

0:36:52 Thomas: That must really suck. No, I know. I think I was a little bit like that. And then I realized it sucks. So I tried to change how I think.

0:36:52 Eli: You guys don't do that constantly? God, I wish. If only one could change how one thinks. That's insane. What a world that would be.

0:37:01 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, you can. Yeah.

0:37:06 Eli: Where one could make changes about their inner thoughts

0:37:09 Thomas: It takes a lot of work.

0:37:09 Eli: And personhood. Just make a change on the outside.

0:37:13 Thomas: Yeah well, you know.

0:37:13 Eli: I think that's all that matters. That's what my therapist has always told me, is that as long as people like the mask you're wearing, thank you. That's what they called it.

0:37:14 Tom: So that's all that matters Yeah, just the facade It's the facade and that's it There's nothing thing.

0:37:18 Thomas: Hey, it's the next best thing. It's the next best thing yeah it is it's effort it's more effort than my dad would have done he's just you know everyone else's my dad is this guy almost except my dad wouldn't have even cared enough to post it somewhere he wouldn't tell anybody he'd just be like yeah yeah probably yeah yeah I gotta check on this

0:37:35 Tom: Here's

0:37:35 Eli: He just puts it in the diaries, and then you burned those, so...

0:37:45 Ad: [Ad break 4 — ad music]

0:37:47 Tom: The other question I have for you guys. So like, there's no way this guy leads a chill and cool life where he's a decent human being. And then there was just this one moment where he is acting all out of character. Right.

0:37:59 Thomas: Yeah no no chance yeah

0:37:59 Tom: And we're just like, what the fuck? Right. There's no chance of that. Right from you could tell from literally everything he said, the way he says it and every single piece of what he is focused on. Right? And I mean this genuinely because I don't understand it how the fuck do these guys find women are they lying during the entire and I this is an honest question are they laying during the courting process to seem like something else who is falling in love with these people because I don't understand it

0:38:15 Thomas: I think there's a thing that women do. And I think it's by necessity because men suck so bad. I think that often women are making a version of the man in their head. I think that's often happening. Like They're making a lot of excuses. They're thinking they can fix him. You know, like they're thinking things will get better. I mean, I think men often are, you know, better behaved obviously to some degree, but I do think like, I've known this, maybe I don't want to universalize, but I've known this is true about a lot of my friends and I think Lydia does this sometimes too where it's like you're making a better version in your head and sometimes it's like a nice thing to do you know to give people benefit of the doubt for a while I think there's a totally like healthy version of it like don't judge someone instantly about their whole being but I think there's some women who I'm pretty sure at least I've you know again I have friends who've been like this where they've kind of made their most idealized form of the relationship in their head. And they kind of think either that's what it is or that's what they can get to. And then often they don't, they're very slow to realize like, oh no, actually that guy just sucks. And I think it's because so many men suck. Like I think they just kind of have to do that. I don't know.

0:39:37 Eli: Yeah, 100%. I also think that a tremendous amount of men are better than a woman's father or mother. Because we got to remember how many... Well, you don't have to remember it, because you had a bad childhood. But, like, most people have a childhood so much worse than a bad marriage that when they get to a bad marriage, they're like that golf playing asshole all day, every day. Are you kidding? My dad sexually abused me. This fucking rules. Like, I think we're missing just how many people are living true lives of anguish.

0:40:11 Eli: And so like a husband who's an act because we I have lady friends in my life whose husbands are just unrepentant, miserable assholes. And she just sort of rolls her eyes like that. She lives a life in disgust of him. Right. And it's just like, oh, there he goes again.

0:40:27 Tom: Yeah so that's the part like I want to jump on because I like there's so much trope of that right that is such a trope where it's like the wife is sort of like rolling her eyes like oh he's off like you know like your joke he's always off playing golf again or always you know he's just looking at other women or he's doing all these things that like I find objectionable but that's just how guys are and I wonder like does the sort of cultural media soup lower the bar enough that that somebody like this is sort of endearing by relative terms?

0:41:00 Eli: I don't think it's a cultural thing. I think culture reflects the truth that most people are in marriages of miserable convenience. And I think children destroy most of those marriages. I mean, look, we all have kids, right? Kids are the hardest thing you ever fucking do. I don't care how good your relationship is. My relationship fucking rocks. There's been nothing harder. We could have climbed Kilimanjaro twice butt naked with the amount of bullshit we have gone through as kids. And can you imagine being stupid and mean and jealous and awful trying to do that together? It's a nightmare. I have the best partner in the universe and it's still we end every day on our backs Breathing like we've run a mile just going. Okay, fuck fuck. He's down. God. Damn it. Fuck. That was so hard I pulled all the muscles in my body. God damn it And we have one we have one and financial support and family We're doing it as easy as a kid can be raised a hundred years from now Now we're going to be interviewed like Olympians who managed inhuman feats of strength because everyone's going to have an AI robot taking care of their babies 23 hours a day. And then you'll come in and like, give it a little salute and walk back out of the room again. But I think, I think something like 70 % of people get into a relationship because you're the one there of that majority, whatever sort of fondness they had for each other is completely destroyed by. Age and monogamy and children right

0:42:40 Tom: Monogamy.

0:42:40 Eli: Somebody cheats and they don't it's like do you want to try and go get a credit card no all right well I'll just hate you for the next 50 years sounds good and then they just fucking do that shit I think and I know you disagree tom and I think you make a really great argument for why I am wrong about this I think we're about two generations into married people loving each other I

0:43:00 Tom: Wait, like you think that three generations back, married people didn't generally love each other?

0:43:04 Eli: Think most married people three generations back did not love each other in any of the ways we would define it. That we would not accept how our grandparents felt about each other as love.

0:43:17 Tom: Huh. Yeah, I would say certainly there was a time period where there was a lot more, but a lot of this is class-based. It's like if you were in a higher class situation, like obviously you were marrying in a way that was much more transactional or contractual. But I think like from what I've read and like honestly, like literature and poetry teaches me something a little different. Like I look back at like the wide body of like literature and poetry that's written about love and it's relatable and I think like but it was famous because it resonates right like if that didn't connect with people then we wouldn't yeah

0:43:50 Eli: I think it was like three people a generation.

0:44:00 Eli: No, I think they were faking it. You know, let me explain. You know how people pretend Andy Weir's books aren't boring? That's what I think people did with love poems. I think there were like, oh yeah, I fucking love the part about space. That's my favorite part where they, the jet fuel and the potatoes. That's fucking cool. No, that's my favorite part of every book. I just wish more books had potatoes and jet fuel measurements, math problems in them. And then in 1844, it was like, in verily, oh, this poem is exactly how I feel about you, Gertrude, because you don't bathe. And I think about how fucking sweet that puss is on the reg.

0:44:16 Tom: And math problems yeah a lot more math

0:44:23 Thomas: Uh well we've lost every all our

0:44:45 Tom: Problems like I do think like and I speak from experience having had like a bad marriage and like now having a very good marriage like I really bought into the idea for a long time like I would get together with my friends I would be like yeah I'm gonna go hang out with the guys like I'm not gonna hang out with my wife like I like my wife isn't really for hanging out with like I bought into a lot of that stuff like a lot of that sort of like cultural you know like your wife and you are necessarily gonna kind of roll your eyes at each other and you know you're you're not really buddies the same way, you know, it's like, all right, well, that's my wife and these are my people that I like, you know, and like it's different. So I look at this and I read this and I'm like, alright, well how is this guy endearing to anyone? But then I look back at my own history and I'm, like, well I mean I think a lot of people just end up with somebody because that was the rat that was in their cage and it was the right time to end up with somebody.

0:45:08 Thomas: Audience yeah yeah can I say the fact that this guy is posting is maybe the most on the only and most hopeful part of this entire thing maybe there's a chance, yeah like maybe there's a chance he's like fuck am I the bad guy you know like literally am I

0:45:51 Tom: Yeah, so I was wondering about the introspection question.

0:45:58 Thomas: The asshole is the is where it's posted right I think there's I think There's a tiny chance or he's such an asshole that he's Like all right I need to get a bunch of other people's reassurance before I go insult my wife's friend more it's probably that actually

0:46:12 Tom: So here's the thing like it's probably somebody looking to get confirmation right I'm certainly like I think almost everybody when somebody's like am I the asshole it's like I'm obviously expecting everyone to say no you know right it's like you're fishing but on the off chance that this represents any level of actual introspection or like because I'll tell Say what? The comments? I didn't see any comment where anybody was like, that seems chill.

0:46:40 Eli: You got it, man.

0:46:40 Tom: Like, you seem like a fun, chill guy. Right.

0:46:40 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Why would there be? Yeah, exactly.

0:46:45 Eli: Sorry your lady's being such a rag about this.

0:46:49 Tom: Right, but I think that's interesting too, right? Because like, there's so much stereotypical shit in here, and then when you put that stereotypical shit on display, and you ask people to opine upon it, I think it's maybe good news that the opinions that come out are like, yeah, dude, you suck. Because I think that's it like because there's nothing in here that isn't pretty stereotypical right there's a lot of like if this same thing was written 30 years ago to your point before like 30 years ago or 40 years ago it'd be like yeah like whatever like if your wife's friend comes over and you can treat her pretty much however you want all

0:47:21 Eli: Why does this gentleman wonder if his wife has an inner life? This is not true. The scientists have tested, and the wolverine and the female human have the same sentience. Ban him from writing in this publication again.

0:47:36 Tom: If that was too long there's a spark notes version of this podcast now that's going to be available

0:47:39 Eli: It's exclusively for finding out if you have been metamorphized into an asshole. Like metamorphosis. The book. Which is boring and nobody likes there's probably nothing in there to learn or glean who likes the metaphor that way oh god I want to teach an english class just so I can be like so did you guys love this one how'd you like it no no no metaphor assembly nah like who just had had fun who like who couldn't put this bad boy down am I right it was like how is he gonna turn back from a bug like it's a fun kooky fantasy adventure I really loved it

0:47:58 Tom: But tell me first if you like it.

0:48:35 Clip: DEAR OLD DADS

0:48:41 Eli: All right gentlemen before we go I just started working at the bicycle factory this week they

0:48:53 Thomas: Man your jokes been really

0:48:55 Eli: Already made me spokesperson thanks I stole it from the

0:48:55 Thomas: Good been really good lately yeah well you're stealing better jokes yeah I know you're not making them up how

0:49:00 Eli: Internet thanks I operate NFT mines based on the people who were killed in Auschwitz but it's a celebratory version of

0:49:58 Thomas: How many dads did you have was it just the one

0:50:01 Tom: Your Tonka trucks? You just had a bad day with your Tonka trucks?

0:50:05 Eli: It don't say the things you think don't say the things you think