DOD258: Should We Expect Our Kids to Take Care of Us?

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's not taking care of any of you. I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:39 Eli: Cool!

0:00:40 Thomas: You're not gonna, you're not going to take care of me, Tom. Okay.

0:00:42 Tom: You know what, Thomas? I'll take care of you, I will take care.

0:00:44 Thomas: It's not like you have anything else to do.

0:00:46 Tom: Yeah, what else? I got nothing. Have you guys ever done any elder care personally?

0:00:51 Thomas: Oof. Only a little bit.

0:00:52 Eli: Yeah, that was my first job.

0:00:53 Tom: That was your first job. Wait a minute.

0:00:54 Thomas: Oh, really? They let you take care of people?

0:00:57 Tom: You can have a job that's not a car wash as your...

0:00:59 Eli: Yeah, I know. I had the car wash fights.

0:00:59 Thomas: Yeah.

0:01:01 Tom: How much fighting of the elderly did you do? Yeah.

0:01:01 Thomas: You fought the elderly? Yeah, yeah.

0:01:03 Eli: Yeah. It was actually surprisingly easy. They're fragile, fragile people. No, it was one of my first jobs was working in an old age home.

0:01:09 Thomas: Wow. Yeah.

0:01:09 Tom: Oh, really? What did you you do

0:01:10 Eli: I developed a deep fear of getting old, is what I did. I don't know actually what the official term was, but I was called a candy striper?

0:01:14 Thomas: Oh wow.

0:01:14 Tom: Yeah. Right. I think that's a porn thing.

0:01:21 Thomas: I've always heard that term and never known what it was. I thought it was women who did something during the war times. I don't know. I got nothing.

0:01:23 Eli: Yeah.

0:01:30 Tom: Yeah, yeah.

0:01:30 Eli: Yeah, I honestly couldn't tell you that I know know a hundred percent what it means.

0:01:35 Thomas: I gotta look that up now. Yeah, I don't know. Candy striper.

0:01:37 Eli: Yeah, I did it. I did it. And then I brought people medicine. There were always nurses who gave them said medicine. I would hang out if there were activities.

0:01:40 Thomas: Huh. Okay. Okay, I'm not so wrong. My connotation was that it was women who did a health thing in war times and that's pretty much what it was.

0:01:49 Tom: Yeah. When?

0:01:54 Eli: Okay, great.

0:01:55 Thomas: And that's what Eli did as his job, I guess.

0:01:59 Tom: I was like, uh, 17 or 18, in that range, like my senior year. And around that time my best friend, his grandfather had a stroke, and like, his stroke completely, was an older guy, obviously, and like a stroke completely changed his personality. He wasn't capable to be on his own, he couldn't walk, that kind of thing. My buddy's mom was a nurse, that was her career before she stopped being a nurse to be a full -time stay -at -home parent. So they took Grandpa into the house and she was going to nurse him at the house, and they had a separate room on the first floor and he had a hospital bed and all the, you know, accoutrement around that sort of stuff.

And like, they were nursing him until he passed. Like, it was a couple years or so. And so I would babysit for my buddy, like when he was out with his girlfriend, friend, and like, they needed a babysitter because he had three younger siblings. Then eventually I would babysit and elder care, do, I don't know what that's called, I don't want to call it babysitting. And it was like everything from feeding him to like changing his, because he, he soiled himself

0:02:38 Eli: Yep.

0:02:51 Thomas: Wow. Oh, Jesus Christ.

0:02:58 Tom: Frequently. So like changing him and that kind of thing, changing out his bed stuff. And like, it was a formatively unpleasant experience, like he was such a nice guy.

0:03:06 Thomas: Well, we make up for it by not paying those people anything though, at least.

0:03:09 Eli: Yeah. No, there's the pay was low enough that it was all worth it.

0:03:09 Tom: Yeah. Yeah, what are you talking about? Like, I, it was the 90s, I got like 10, maybe 20 for like a whole day of taking care of three kids and an old guy.

0:03:13 Thomas: Yeah.

0:03:21 Eli: Changing an old man's diaper. Yeah yeah.

0:03:22 Thomas: Isn't it the same thing as daycare where somehow Somehow it costs billions of dollars, but somehow the people, the very amazing people who do the actual work get none of that money somehow. Like, I don't I don'T fucking get it. Yeah.

0:03:32 Eli: Yeah.

0:03:32 Tom: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly how it is. Yeah. And if you like think, like, okay, well then it must be a cash cow, and you look into it, somehow also that's not

0:03:41 Eli: No one is making, we're not, not sure who's making money off of it. Yeah.

0:03:43 Thomas: Insurance companies? It must be insurance companies.

0:03:43 Tom: True. How is it so expensive but nobody's making any money? Yeah.

0:03:47 Thomas: Yeah, that's the only thing I can think of.

0:03:48 Tom: Yeah, it's just like the malpractice insurance on places like that or whatever, the liability insurance is like 86 trillion dollars.

0:03:50 Thomas: Yeah. Because you do get some of the worst people ever who abuse old people. And I don't know why. How do those people exist in the same society that we do? I'll never understand it.

0:04:02 Tom: Okay, well, I don't, I don't want to answer that question, like, I'll get it, but, but I will say, no, no, hang on, I know.

0:04:07 Eli: Yeah, okay.

0:04:06 Thomas: No, these are these are some of the worst monsters in society. Yeah.

0:04:09 Eli: Let him cook. He's about to give us why he thinks sometimes you need to abuse an old person. Oh.

0:04:14 Tom: Nope, nope, that is not where I'm headed. That's not where I'm headed, I promise. But I will say, my buddy's grandfather before the stroke was a really wonderful person.

0:04:19 Thomas: But he was a real dick. Oh.

0:04:22 Tom: Really wonderful person. After the stroke he was not the same human being and he was mean, like he was an unhappy, and I don't blame him for it, I didn't even then, but like, he was a really mean guy, like he would throw shit at me when I'd come in the room, he would, would yell, he would like make messes on purpose in order to get me to like clean him up and stuff. It was easy to be upset as a young person, it was very easy for me to be mad at him, and I knew better than to take it out on him, but there, I can't tell you, like, there were a lot of times where he'd be abusive or break stuff or knock shit over and I would just be like, yeah, I'm gonna leave the room and not deal with that for a

0:04:22 Eli: Yeah. Oh. Yeah.

0:04:25 Thomas: Oh yeah, yeah.

0:04:35 Thomas: Jesus.

0:04:58 Thomas: Oh, let me be clear, I think elder care, people who do elder care should be allowed to euthanize the odd old person. That's fine, they should be able to. I think they should be allowed to do that. It's the ones who actually abuse them, that's, they're the worst kinds of humanity ever. There's people who just are the worst. I don't think it's born out of a frustration, which I could very much understand. You should get one free euthanasia.

0:05:05 Tom: While. Okay, all right, we've

0:05:05 Eli: Yes, oh my god, yes, as

0:05:17 Tom: Yeah, yeah, I, yeah. Yeah.

0:05:24 Eli: Someone who's been in this environment, and Tom, you could speak to this as well, because I dealt with a lot of old people who were in an assisted living facility. Here's my hot take: most people change for the extreme worse when they reach that level of age because they are scared and confused all the time.

0:05:36 Thomas: I bet. Yeah.

0:05:43 Eli: Thomas, you know how you feel when the alarm goes off to do our record? They feel that way all the Time. They are vaguely aware that their families are dead. Yeah, they're vaguely aware that everyone they love is dead, but they're also very present in those moments. So like, imagine if just now you realized Lydia's been dead for 10 years and the person who you realized it to was like, "Yeah, man, we get it," and then just sort of like rolled you into the main room to watch TV you didn't want to watch, but you were incapable of moving your head away from the TV you didn't

0:05:45 Thomas: Oh. Wow. I punched Lydia this morning. Yeah. Oh.

0:05:55 Tom: And your alarm went off.

0:06:07 Thomas: Yeah, punch this morning. Oh.

0:06:20 Thomas: Jesus Christ.

0:06:20 Eli: Want to wash. Like, a lot of them are, are just. Oh.

0:06:22 Thomas: Hey, we need some of our listeners to not kill themselves. If you just kill

0:06:27 Eli: Okay, well then you're gonna hate my second point, which is my second point. The thing I truly learned is there's a trap. The first time you get old, sick, the first time you get old, sick, your first heart attack, your first stroke, whatever, the doctor goes, "Well, we're going to send you into rehab and you know, it's been a couple of, you might spend," no, it is vital that you die. It is a V whatever it is you can

0:06:50 Tom: Okay.

0:06:49 Thomas: Yourself. Yeah. It's vital that you die.

0:06:52 Eli: Do to die in that moment. You should do, you should have a Happening-esque sense of urgency to die. Like when you have a knee replacement or a something, the and first time you have a surgery and you go, "How long is recovery?" And they go, "Well, you know, you'll never be the same," you should say, "Uh-uh," and then just run into their thing of scalpels with your eyes. Yes. It's, and Tom, Tom, it's going to be too late.

0:07:12 Tom: Hey, I'm on the show. I'm right here.

0:07:10 Thomas: Yeah. Tom should have done that years ago.

0:07:17 Tom: It's already happened.

0:07:17 Eli: Because when you're on neck operation number 11 and Haley's wheeling you to the front of a baseball game to be like, Tammy loves baseball. It's too late, you're too weak to kill yourself.

0:07:27 Thomas: Yeah, Tom

0:07:27 Tom: Happened. I already am. Never gonna be the same. God damn it. Yeah. Jesus Christ.

0:07:32 Thomas: Is long past that date. And the only thing worse than Tom not getting it all

0:07:32 Eli: This is what I'm saying. Yes. The only thing worse than the hell, the physical hell of weakness and helplessness that Tom has cast himself into are the auto -ets. But you can make those auto ads go away over at patreon .com forward slash droll dance.

0:07:39 Tom: Hello.

0:07:48 Tom: Okay.

0:07:52 Thomas: Just Like Tom can make all that all

0:07:54 Tom: Jeez.

0:07:54 Eli: You can make all the pain go away if he wasn't such a chicken about it.

0:07:59 Tom: Man, god damn.

0:08:00 Eli: Gives as little as a dollar commercial episodes. All sorts of cool stuff.

0:08:00 Thomas: Go, uh,

0:08:02 Tom: Hey, the kids, I'm not killing myself. Just want to let my kids know it's

0:08:07 Eli: Hey, hey, kids, let your dad go. Let him go. I want each of you to walk up to him this week and look him in the eyes and say, hey. I'm ready. It's okay. Let go. It's Okay.

0:08:12 Tom: Fine. Nope. It's okay, you can go, Dad. Oh my

0:08:22 Eli: We're going to take care of everyone. It's time for you to be a piece. Hey, actually, can I just be real? Don't actually tell Tom he's allowed to be at peace.

0:08:22 Thomas: Boo. Yeah.

0:08:31 Thomas: Yeah, no, good point.

0:08:31 Eli: Because he might, it's been a rough couple of years. He could, he might be a taker. All right. Patreon .com forward slash dear old dads. Rip into it.

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0:08:46 Tom: God. All Right, so I wanted to get, uh, your take on this. We've talked around this topic before, but I have a new angle maybe to get, get your opinions on this. Actually stems from, uh, some conversation that I saw from an Atlantic article. So I'll read you kind of the byline of the Atlatic article and then, uh, some of the comments underneath it that I thought were worth a jumping-off point. An underused child care arrangement could save parents money, recognize the labor of elder caregivers, and strengthen family ties.

So it's about using your parents, grandparents of your kids as elder or as a childcare and maybe paying them for the thing. So there was some conversation that I saw that was interesting back and forth. My wife had actually commented saying, Hey, our intention is not to be caregivers for our grandkids. Like that's like, well, you know, babysit them from time to time, but we're not going to be like the Monday through Friday help. Nope, that's not our intention. And we've always told our kids that.

One of the comments that came back, and I thought this was interesting enough to read and then to kind of get your opinion on. This person said, what your comment makes clear is that you've opted out of the intergenerational model of care. The same model that has sustained families and societies for thousands of years. Helping across generations was never about erasing dreams. It is about shared responsibility, reciprocity, and continuity.

If someone's position is my life, my time, my retirement, that's a valid choice, But it comes with tradeoffs. One of those tradeoffs is that you don't get to later assume, and this is why I was curious about you guys, you don'T get to LATER assume your children will step in for you when you're old, frail, or in need of care. You cannot reject interdependence on the way up and expect it on the Way down.

And so that got me to thinking, because Haley and I were both like, well, fucking, I've never expected, and I don't want my kids to ever care for me when I get old. And I think about, like, conversations I've had with my dad. My dad's health has been tenuous a few times, and I remember telling my dad, like, hey, you know, we

0:10:01 Thomas: Okay.

0:10:42 Eli: Kill yourself. Do it.

0:10:42 Tom: Can figure it out. I'm told, I told my dad we can figured out, you can live here. And his response was essentially, Tom, if I ever can't be independent, I'll end my life. I'm never going to live with you. I would rather not be alive.

0:10:53 Eli: Way to go, Tom's dad. Tom's Dad gets it.

0:10:55 Tom: Yeah, he does. He does. And I respect that. But I also know that there are some people that have cited, I've seen them and I've met them, that have stated one of the reasons to have kids is to have somebody to care for you when you're older. And it's

0:11:06 Thomas: Yeah. Now that's hilarious. I love that.

0:11:08 Eli: Yeah,

0:11:08 Tom: That intergenerational model of care, right? Where everybody kind of expects that they will get a turn and take a turn. And I don't know if that's, like, a cultural thing that just doesn't connect to me, or if you guys know people that feel that way. What your thoughts on that are, specifically, like, your thoughts on, like, your kids having a responsibility to care for you and your health and your well-being down the road. We've talked about caring for our aging parents, but I'm curious how you feel in the reverse.

0:11:37 Thomas: Wouldn't have even occurred to

0:11:39 Eli: No, I stand firmly in the Tom's dad side of things, which is like, like, not only do I not expect Max to take care of me, I would be mortified at the idea that I would transform into such a burden at the end of my life. That's what happened to my family, right? My mom took care of her dad and then my mom took car of her mom, both of whom moved. One didn't move in near enough to us, but we went to him all the time. And then my mom's mom came to us and we sort of witnessed her transformation into dementia and meanness towards the end of her life, and it ruined their relationship, it ruined our relationship, it just, it was the worst possible thing we could have done to our legacy. I would rather be in, like, the most cruel, horrible public home and have an unpleasant last however many months of my life than just to completely transform our relationship into what that dependence means.

0:11:43 Thomas: Me. Yeah.

0:11:54 Thomas: Yeah. Oh.

0:12:39 Tom: I feel very similarly and I've got a bunch of notes on this but like I'm, curious if your mom needed help would you take her in?

0:12:46 Eli: Oh, and a second, of course.

0:12:48 Tom: So I feel the same way, right? Like, my very first thought when, I when my dad's health had issues, I was like, well, I'll find a way to take care of them. And it's weird to me that I feel 100% comfortable as the child being like, yeah, dad, of course I'll take care if you need help. I love you and your family. And then on the reverse, I'm like, I would rather die than ask my kids. I'm comfortable flipping the directionality as the kid, and I'm entirely unwilling to concede of the possibility of of changing that directionality for my own kids. There's, like, a tension there that I can't square, but it's still true.

0:13:25 Eli: It's the life we want our loved ones to have versus the life we want for ourselves. So, like, I have talked before in the past and not to get us a bunch of one -star reviews, right? But, like I don't necessarily want Max to have to have a job. One of the goals that I have as a parent is that he should not need to labor, labor in order to survive. I like that. That's important to me about it. Is one of my goals for me to not have a job? No, of course not, right? I'm happy to work for the rest of my life, especially because my job is enjoyable and easy and in all the ways that I enjoy things to be. But like the same as I would do that for my mom, I have different expectations for what my life will be like than I do for my loved ones.

0:14:09 Tom: Yeah, I don't disagree with that. I feel like this is kind of maybe tangential to that toxic independence though, that maybe we've been raised with that I think maybe gets worse generation after generation after generation, right? And maybe I'm totally wrong about this, but if you go back a handful of generations, there were a lot more intergenerational homes.

0:14:28 Thomas: Yeah.

0:14:28 Tom: There was a less of a sort of, everybody has their own place. Everybody gets out at a certain age. Everybody has to sort of prove their own way in the world. And now that that feels weird. Right.

0:14:39 Thomas: Yeah, that's been ruined though. Yeah.

0:14:41 Tom: Yeah. Like that feels weird. And honestly, we haven't constructed homes that account for that. Yeah, yeah.

0:14:44 Thomas: Yeah, no, we just, we, capitalism gutted that. I don't think that's even really possible.

0:14:50 Tom: Like I look at my house and it's a brand new house and I'm like, I don't even have a functional bedroom on the first floor or like a bathroom. Like taking care of somebody who's got mobility issues here would would be impossible. I wonder how much of that is true about who we are and how much of that it's just like, yeah, I've bought into this toxic independent capitalist culture and these systems that tell me that independence is the only way to have personal value.

0:15:17 Thomas: Oh, is that a capitalism thing? I thought it was just my raccoon family. And that was just mine. Yeah.

0:15:20 Eli: Oh.

0:15:21 Tom: You know what I mean, though? Like, why have we moved away from the idea of the intergenerational home? I certainly have. I admit fully that I don't want to switch the directionality of care. I would rather not exist anymore than to switch the directionality of care with my kids.

0:15:26 Thomas: Yeah.

0:15:36 Eli: I love the idea of a generational home. I just don't, I'm not in it. Yeah, exactly. I think on a regular basis about like, and then Max can have that, right? Because I'll do stuff to my house all the time. And the construction guys will be like, why are you doing this is fine. And I'm like, yeah, but like in 50 years, and they're like, Oh, yeah. No, in 50 50 years. That'll fucking matter. Right. And so I constantly think about like, if Max wants this to be a home, this will be a really wonderful home for him to have. But no, I don't want any. There's no amount of suffering I could undergo that wouldn't be worth it to not be that kind of burden. I could freeze in the street outside and it would be fine. I would crawl into the

0:15:40 Thomas: Yeah, exactly. Who's gonna start it?

0:15:42 Tom: It's where you go on Thanksgiving.

0:16:24 Tom: Right.

0:16:24 Eli: Appropriately colored trash bag rather than burden my loved ones. And this is why I say you got to do the first heart attack, Tom, because the problem is people goes into rehab. Right. They're like, oh, just a couple of weeks of rehab. And then people is all good to it. And he doesn't the happening himself. Right? He goes, oh. Oh, okay, I do love to fish, right? And you're like, okay people. And then, oh, rehab's taking a little bit longer. You know what people, why don't you just move somewhere where you got a nurse and then all of a sudden, four years later, you just got a permanently open mouth and everybody's wheeling you into the room to get pea smelling hugs.

0:16:30 Thomas: Yeah, because everyone says says this, and yet it doesn't happen.

0:17:03 Thomas: My fucking dad, my fucking dad who didn't care about a day in his life, who didn'T live a day in his Life, like just didn'T even never, never wanted to be here.

0:17:08 Eli: Is dead right now.

0:17:13 Thomas: Even toward the end, fucking, I don'T know the details. I don't care. I'm not talking to my family, but I think there's some resentments from someone, my sister, I DON'T know, somebody over him spending a lot of the money that they had on The last bit of care. And I don't know anything about that, but I do know that, like, toward the end he had said, like, all right, let's do whatever we can. He had basically switched to the like let's-do-everything-we-can mode when he had been in the go-ahead-and-kill-me mode from his, like, 40s, you know? Like, he had been in the, like, actively trying to die mode, I've said this before.

Had he just gone to the doctor regularly, he'd be here today. There's nothing wrong with him that was a big deal. It was all neglect. It was, it was all like forming diabetes type, whichever one you can form, type two, I guess, and not taking care of it, losing, you know, some toes all because of not taking care of it. Yeah. And all he had to do, if he had had the attitude of wanting to stay alive when he was fucking alive, when he Was like 55 or something, he'd still be here. But even he, this fucking depressive atheistic type guy, even he toward the end was like, Like, well, I guess there's Jesus and I want to live.

0:17:15 Tom: Oh my God.

0:17:26 Eli: Oh, absolutely. Mm -hmm, mm -hmm. Mm -hm,

0:18:06 Tom: They're always in the last place you

0:18:27 Eli: Mmh -hm. Sure.

0:18:28 Thomas: And I don't think he really believed in Jesus, but I think it was part of the, like, the only people still talking to him were the Jesus part of The Family. Maybe that was partof it. Or maybe he just lost his mind. Could be that. But, like... That's the danger.

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0:18:46 Eli: You got to remember a couple of things about why people do that at the last minute. People do that At The Last Minute. And again, I witnessed this a ton. People do that At Last Minute for a lot of reasons. One, they have reduced capacity. They're super fucking high. They run painkillers most of the time. They also get a ton of like anti -anxiety medications, antidepressants, right? They just fill these people up.

0:18:56 Thomas: Mm -hmm.

0:19:07 Thomas: Oh, they're actually getting treated for their mental illness for the first time in their lives? Yeah.

0:19:10 Eli: Yes. At the same time. Yes, so they're pumping you with like all these drugs. You're just sort of like I guess so like you're really really fucking confused all of the time the other thing is they are always selling you those services so it is always proposed to you as I mean look if you want we can kick you out into the street but I'm not gonna make you get this care and they're sort of like they're angry at you vibe about like you leaving or you not taking that care and so you're like no no whatever's easy like you'RE TRYING TO GO ALONG TO GET ALONG YOU'RE NOT LIKE NO I MUST stay.

And they're like, you sure you don't want to die? No, they're like, look, we can't make two, right? Is that they're, like, you're never in a situation where they're like, hey, let's pause for a second. Do you want to Die? It's like, no, we're going to do this life -saving care to you unless you explicitly make trouble to do it. I used to wear a DNR. I've told you about the DNR bracelet, right. I used wear a DNA bracelet, Right. Just because, like there's no reason why resuscitation would be a good thing for me and my life choices.

And so I had a DN R resuscitaiton all through college. And then And I actually went to the hospital and they were like, is that a DNR bracelet? And I was like, yeah. And they were, like, you should know everyone's going to ignore that. And I, was like what? And he, was, like yeah. They're, going to think you're, like in a shitty band or something.

0:19:48 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:20:29 Eli: Like there's, no one is going to respect your medical wishes.

0:20:31 Tom: Look, we are do not resuscitate.

0:20:31 Thomas: That would be a good band name. Yeah, DNR.

0:20:33 Eli: Right.

0:20:33 Tom: Yeah, Jesus.

0:20:34 Thomas: Is there... I'm going to check if that's taken.

0:20:35 Eli: No one's, going, to take the legal risk that a 20 something year old has a DNAR. Like just fucking don't bother. And I ,was, like but you know fucking breaks your ribs. And he ,was ,like yeah no it does. I don't know what to tell you. I would ignore that right now if you couldn't speak.

0:20:37 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:20:48 Tom: Christ.

0:20:48 Eli: And I .was ,like ah no no. I've got Max.

0:20:49 Thomas: That makes sense.

0:20:50 Tom: You don't have the DNR bracelet anymore, I assume, now. Now that you've got Max. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That would be crazy. One thing that's interesting to me is the idea of the sort of like, hey, I don't want to rely on my kids. I don'T ever want to like go back a step and like change that directionality and be a part of like the burden. And again, right, like I was a burden once in my life. Right. When you own, I was A kid and I DON'T want to sort of, like, repeat that as an adult.

0:21:16 Eli: Well, you're missing a bunch of shows in March. I don't know. Actually, you should consider killing yourself. It's then.

0:21:18 Tom: I am going to be a burden then, too. I did. But it's, it's like, it's funny to me to feel that way personally, and also to know that it is actually antithetical to what we know about what drives happiness. Like, one of the things that we know, like, scientifically know drives happiness is social connections, relying on other people, having other people rely on you. And instead, we sort of, like, double down into these, like, deeply independent and often really isolated lives as we get older. And again, I'm thinking of my dad, who lives alone by choice, who would never rely on anybody else. He would, like, he would genuinely and very expressly rather not be anymore. And I totally agree with him. And it's like, you

0:21:25 Thomas: We'll See, that's what my dad probably would have said. No, then again, then again, my dad was dependent every goddamn day of his life.

0:22:10 Eli: It's what they all say.

0:22:14 Tom: Know, my dad's never depended on anyone In his life. Yeah, so I feel like he's, yeah, that's, that's locked in.

0:22:16 Thomas: Really? Yeah, yeah, that's fair.

0:22:23 Tom: No. Oh.

0:22:23 Eli: So now I'm on the ground. Now I'm under the ground, I'm actually in hell. It's funny because it turns out that there's fire at the bottom of the pyramid, but it's okay. It's okay because I'm the only one touching it and everyone else is like, it's getting a little warm as I get lower and I'm like, don't worry about it. I'm going to put an air conditioner on my back as well. So you'll be nice and cool.

0:22:35 Thomas: Tom

0:22:47 Tom: Shit. What I wonder about whether or not this is, like, what helps resolve the tension, at least at this point in my life, is one, I'm approaching, unlike you guys, I'm approach the finish line with some of my kids, right? Like, I I'm not there yet, but I can see it. So I've got two kids in college, I got, and another one is in high school. So the idea of the empty nest for me is approaching. It's something to begin planning for.

And it's like, I'm kind of looking forward to that. Not even kind of. I'm looking forward. I'm not looking forward to the empty next. It sounds nice, right? Like, that sounds nice. And I think that it's OK to sort of be excited about that phase in your life if that's the next thing that you're looking forward to. And I wonder, too, is that, like, like, because there's this sort of, like, phases in your life where you expect and want and desire different things.

If there's not a sort of circling back as you sort of reach true old age, and not sort of the late middle age. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, as you get to, like, true old edge, it's like, OK, I had my empty nest time. That was cool. That was fun. Now I'm old, genuinely old. And am I going to want to, like, build and rebuild and reconnect and live with and do those things and circle back to that option? I guess.

It's the only thing I can think that helps to reconcile knowing that like, hey, we know what drives happiness and it's not living alone in a condo by yourself all day and watching reruns of Cops. That is not what drives happiness. And we know it. And yet there's so many people are like, yeah, I'd rather do that than ever ask for help.

0:23:16 Thomas: I can see your erection through the Zencaster. Um, man.

0:24:20 Thomas: Yeah, I think that I, I feel entirely the same way. It's not about requiring maybe some level of assistance. It's more about, like, what you're able to do in your life life. And I certainly think, like, okay, maybe, maybe if I required some level of assistance, but I'm still able to, like, do stuff, I'm still, you know, I don't know, some level of activity that feels like I'm still living, like, I'm still, but, like, once you get to the truly near vegetative state, or just totally, like, the disoriented kind of, what's the word, you know that? Not, what's the word when you can't remember anything?

0:24:55 Tom: Thomas Smith.

0:24:57 Thomas: Okay, I guess it's I'm ready to die.

0:25:00 Eli: ADD, your mom tried her best.

0:25:00 Tom: Thomasing, smithing, Thomas Smithing.

0:25:01 Thomas: I'm ready to dye. No, what is that when they can't...

0:25:04 Tom: Dementia?

0:25:04 Thomas: Yeah, thank you. I wasn't doing a bit.

0:25:08 Tom: Early onset?

0:25:09 Thomas: Dementia. Yeah.

0:25:08 Eli: Hey, I know you, I know we usually cut it when we have just like a moment of anomia, but could you leave that one? Cause it's really appropriate.

0:25:13 Thomas: Yeah, I will. I will... I think it's a sign that I'm almost done here. No.

0:25:19 Eli: Good for you.

0:25:20 Thomas: But, like, when you get to that point where it's like...

0:25:20 Tom: Not with the record either. Yeah.

0:25:22 Eli: Remy, I always hated you.

0:25:26 Thomas: When you get to that part, that point, where it is like you're truly just barely there, and yet you're the biggest pain in the ass, like, that's where the amount of care you require is so costly, and it's like, that's where somehow someone just needs to take you out, like somehow because you've lost the ability, you're just sitting there, like, not knowing what's going on, really. You know what I mean? Yeah.

0:25:45 Eli: We talk about this all the time in my family. My mom has been like back of the head. My dad has been like back. I cannot remember a time where my family did not joke about, out but not joke about being like, if I ever get that old, you have to shoot me until I am dead. You

0:26:01 Thomas: But you, you can't do that though.

0:26:02 Tom: Which let me just let me just pause here and say, yeah, right. I was going to say, like, it kind of sucks that we don't have a euthanasia option in this country that like we can well, like. So I'm curious if you guys. Guys.

0:26:08 Thomas: They don't let you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

0:26:10 Eli: Can you, can do it. You can't do it with a gun, but you can. Guys, you could do It, Chris, I know you're listening, you can. It's me, God.

0:26:31 Tom: But I'm curious if you guys feel this way, too. So there's like there's something for

0:26:36 Thomas: Yeah, Eli's committing a murder on, on air.

0:26:45 Ad: [Ad break 3 — ad music]

0:26:47 Tom: Me, there's something like I've referred to it before as the directionality of care that like with my kids, I never want to reverse that. Right. Like, I don't care how old I am. I don'T care what the situation is. I always want to make sure that the direction of care flows from me to them. I DON'T want to reverse that. I feel like reversing that directionality of care, I would be ashamed of it. Even if my kids would be entirely happy and loving and comfortable with it, I would be ashamed of it. And I think there's no good reason for me to think that.

0:27:19 Thomas: Here, yeah.

0:27:19 Tom: And I Think if I sort of interrogate that, I can add some more neuroticism to it that I'm curious if you guys share.

0:27:25 Thomas: Oh, it's toxic masculinity, we found it. Sorry, Tom.

0:27:28 Tom: You know, it is. But I'm Curious, like if you Guys share this, this additional neurotic ism. So I have a sleep disorder called REM behavior disorder. I got diagnosed with it actually shortly after we started this show,

0:27:36 Thomas: That's what Remy has. I have a kid with Remy behavior disorder.

0:27:41 Tom: Remy Behavior Disorder. Long story short, what that means is that it is a prodromal symptom for Parkinson's disease. About 70 percent, between 70 and 90 percent of people that have this will eventually get Parkinson's.

Disease. As soon as I found that out, I was like, oh shit, okay, well, I'm gonna make some changes, including like not drinking anymore, etc. And my thinking was immediately like, if I ever have to ask Hayley to help me, if I'm ever deteriorated and I have to go to her and say, I need help, I want to feel like I've earned it by doing everything I could to not need it. And I think back to that, I'm like, yeah, but I don't ask for the reverse from her, right? I would never, like, she, she just needs help.

It's like, I don't care if you even need the help. Like, it doesn't matter. Whatever you need, you got because I love you. But I don't feel comfortable being like, yeah, I am okay asking for big help, like capital H help. I'm only okay asking if there's literally no way I could have avoided it. So I'll make a whole bunch of changes to my life to make sure that I never need to ask for it or I can ask for with a clear conscience.

And it feels related here to the directionality of care, not wanting to reverse that and feeling uncomfortable being like, yeah, somebody should care for me. And like, I don't want anyone to do that.

0:27:41 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:28:56 Thomas: I don't have, I don' have that. I don't, like

0:28:58 Eli: No.

0:28:58 Tom: No, it might just be a Tom thing. And it's totally fine if it's a Tom.

0:29:01 Thomas: I have similar feelings, but for different reasons, like, I just don't really want anyone to have to waste the time and money to, like, take care of an old shitting me You know, like, that's, that's a waste of, like, human resources. Hmm.

0:29:10 Tom: Yeah, it's not efficient. It's just not efficient to me. I did a spreadsheet, but it was just before I fell apart and it's non -efficient. What about you, Eli? I mean, does any of that resonate with you at all? Like, does that connect with you as well?

0:29:18 Eli: Exactly. Sure. I completely understand wanting to give care. I completely reject, reject taking the same said care. It's just about, like, for me, I think it's about values. I think there are people, to give them credit, I think there are people who value being alive and their own life separate as a thing about others. I think there are people who are like, I am an artist, or I am a singer, or I just love my fan, I love being around, right, and reading books, right. I think there are lots of people who, their existence with a capital E, really is self-satisfying.

And I don't think that's a bad thing. I think loving life and loving being a part of life, even into old age, even when you need help, is a perfectly acceptable way to live your life. It's not where my values lie. My value is about the way in which I can best be. Well, that's the thing, right? It's like Like, I'm Keats for other people. I'm giving you all the gift of my genius. I'm not keeping it for myself. They're for you to help you grow and be better and not be 9 -11 truthers anymore. Yeah, listen to all the episodes to get that one, but trust me, it's a good one. But like, for me, everything that I do is a means towards teaching

0:29:45 Thomas: I've heard of that. Oh, sure, Keats. Oh, it's for us, guys. Those painful roasts that make us cry are for us. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:30:47 Eli: Or the various things that I do. It is all other-centric. I occasionally give myself breaks, and those are nice, but, like, if you took away my service of others, I don't particularly find much enjoyment in just hanging around, like People always ask, like, what are you gonna do when you retire, right? Tom, you were talking about this just now, like, when it comes to getting older, I'm never gonna retire, not because I won't have the money, I might have the money to be capable of retirement. I'm never gonna retire because the activities that are associated with retirement, and obviously there There are many, many retirees who live incredibly rich lives of service to other people after they retire. So, you know, take that with a grain of salt. But, like, the idea of going fishing for the rest of my life because that's an activity I enjoy, I have no interest in it.

0:31:01 Thomas: Right.

0:31:33 Thomas: Man, me neither, but, but maybe we need to, maybe we should change. Do you think that's something we should try to change? I don't know.

0:31:39 Eli: I don't think so.

0:31:40 Tom: I love I, wow, it's a moment on the show. We're having a moment. Yeah.

0:31:46 Eli: I think there's plenty of takers. I don'T think we need any more takers, mm

0:31:47 Thomas: Yeah, that's not, I don'T think you're a taker. I don' t think, I DON'T think you'd necessarily have to be a takER.

0:31:52 Tom: I don't know that that's the, I don's think that's the binary, man.

0:31:55 Eli: -hmm.

0:31:55 Thomas: Yeah, what's the, what'S the guy if he's sitting out there fishing? What's he taking, a couple of fish? No one was, no one was using those. No one needed those fish.

0:31:55 Tom: Yeah.

0:32:00 Eli: Sure. Yeah, and again, I think you can be a taker and not be harmful, right? I think it's totally fine to...

0:32:05 Thomas: No, I think it's not being a taker. It's just doing something. It's jutHT sitting in enjoyment of something. And I know it's hard for people like you and I, but at least I've got, like, you know, know the Sharks or something. I can watch the, watch the Sharks, the NHL team, everybody just, yeah. Hmm.

0:32:19 Eli: I have temporary distractions, which I don't mind. Sometimes I'll be working and then I need to play a couple rounds of Candy Crusher or something just to sort of get my brain out of the workspace. But I would never want to play Candy Crush all day, every day.

0:32:35 Thomas: Yeah.

0:32:35 Tom: Yeah, like, I, I agree with that, I guess, in a sense, but

0:32:38 Thomas: Like, writing, you wouldn't want to, like, do some writing or something, something that's... Yeah, I guess, but, but I guess I'm talking about a kind of writing that's not necessarily, like, you're not necessarily going to be making money for it or anything. It's just kind of a pursuit. Not to put this the wrong way, but you wouldn't be a taker, but you wouldn't be really, like, contributing anything

0:32:42 Eli: Well, again, that would be service to an audience, right? I would be trying to help other... Right.

0:32:44 Tom: Like, okay, so, yeah, as long as you can define it

0:32:57 Thomas: Your writing is not feeding anyone. Yeah.

0:32:58 Eli: Yeah, exactly. I'm just using AI to write. I'm not just having ChatGPT write novels, but I think of the ideas for them.

0:33:03 Tom: I'm

0:33:03 Thomas: So you wouldn't. Yeah, because I could see, I could see retiring to a life of trying to write music and just, I don't know, writing music for different stuff or giving that a try, and, you know, maybe a musical, maybe a something, maybe, who knows. Like, I could say retiring to doing creative pursuits that don't need to make money, I guess. And now I say that out loud, maybe it's sad that that's what has to happen to do that. I have to be like, done with life, okay, now I can do something creative that's not going to make any

0:33:32 Tom: Gonna circle back real quick to the, I had a question and one more question related to the original topic. Is it okay for those people who, who grew up differently than, I think, the three of us, is it okay to expect for your kids to care for you in your old age? Is that a reasonable, decent expectation? Cause that's a, I did some looking on this and like culturally speaking, there are a lot of cultures where that is like genuinely both an expectation and a reason to have kids.

0:33:46 Thomas: Money, I don't know a reason to have kids.

0:34:01 Tom: It sort of secures your, it is like people will cite that as a reason. To have kids is one of the top five. Yeah.

0:34:07 Thomas: Hey, if you want to, instead of doing that, put some money into an interest-bearing account starting when you don't have kids and don't spend any of the money you would spend if you had kids, you'll be able to afford to buy an entire retirement home with just you. You could have all the workers just target you. I just think it's, it's funny. It's not a reason to have kids. That'd be silly.

0:34:24 Tom: You Know what, I did some reading. It is a top five cited reason to have kids, to have somebody to care for you in your old age. So like, while the three of us are like, no I never want that. I'd rather die. It's not at all uncommon, and I'm curious, for me it feels like a fucked up thing to do, in the same way that I think, like, expecting somebody to take care of you and care for your kids for you, like, hey, like, you're a grandfather, you've got to care for my kids while I'm at work and you're retired. Like, no, no, I don't.

0:34:33 Thomas: Wow. Jesus.

0:34:57 Thomas: Well, I think, and I think this matters because like financially you probably need to make decisions a couple different ways. If you're counting on, someone's going to take care of you. I think you're going to live your life financially a little different than, well, I better have enough money in case something happens and I am old and got to fucking put myself into it. Old folks home or something. Yeah.

0:35:10 Tom: Yeah, right. Yeah. My strong feeling, but again, I wasn't raised in this type of household where there is sort of intergenerational reliability, is like, it's not reasonable to put expectations like that on your kids. And I don' think it's reasonable for your kids to put expectation on you as a grandparent and be like, yeah, you should be doing this kind of work for me. But I think that's unusual.

0:35:36 Eli: Yeah

0:35:38 Thomas: The thing you should be thinking is, I hope I am a parent such that my kids would want to help out if I need It, like, first off, right?

0:35:44 Eli: Right

0:35:45 Tom: Usual, yeah, yeah, absolutely, instead of, you know, lock you out.

0:35:48 Thomas: Because the alternative is like, there's a, but like, you try to guilt and shame them into doing it. That is, I've seen that too, like the guilting. Yeah, yeah.

0:35:53 Eli: I've witnessed that and it's awful. It works sometimes but it's it's still really terrible

0:35:58 Thomas: I can't imagine being that selfish.

0:36:00 Tom: So if you grew up in that, do you think it's okay to perpetuate it? So you would consider that a generational. I would too. I'm just curious, like, you would considered that, like, a generational harm?

0:36:03 Eli: No, I think you break all the bad generational Yeah Yeah, absolutely.

0:36:12 Tom: Like a Yeah, yeah what about you thomas you

0:36:14 Thomas: In terms of like setting the expectation that your kids will take care of you or something, I just, I think I'm in the same place, but just for different reasons. Like, I just approach it like, I can't imagine that interaction, as a person, like that self-contained interaction action. I can't imagine looking at a kid I have and be like, well, you got an obligation, buddy. As soon as you're older, you

0:36:17 Tom: Yeah, expecting your kids to take care of you when you're older. Yeah.

0:36:37 Eli: Yeah.

0:36:37 Thomas: Got obligations to me to do whatever.

0:36:38 Eli: I want to say that there are probably healthy ways to have that mindset. If you and your adult children decide together that you're being alive is something that you value, awesome, right? Like, I'm not going to tell you that you can't. I mean, I don't agree. I don't agree.

0:36:42 Thomas: Right, right.

0:36:46 Tom: Oh

0:36:51 Thomas: I love the alternative. You go to your kids, yeah, Do you guys think me being alive is valuable? Oh, Dad. Okay. Uh, I'm glad, I'm glad you brought it up. I'm glad you brought it up.

0:36:54 Eli: I think you're wrong. Intelligence squared.

0:36:55 Tom: Yeah, you're right Yeah, I kind of Didn't want you to want to say it out loud. It's weird to talk about it out loud. Dad, oh God.

0:37:02 Eli: I thought we were on the same page about this. All right, gentlemen. Before we go, the problem with eating pizza is that when I've had one, I want another, and then another. It's the Domino's effect.

0:37:07 Clip: DEAR OLD DAD

0:37:25 Tom: I thought this was gonna be about pizza. It's confusing. It's fucking

0:37:27 Eli: I thought he'd like that one, or you could tell that one to Donovan.

0:37:31 Thomas: Yeah.

0:37:31 Tom: Confusing. Shit's disgusting.

0:38:19 Eli: Well, then you're going to hate my second point. It is vital that you die.

0:38:25 Thomas: Tom, I can see your erection through the Zencaster. Um, what's the word when you can't remember anything? Oh, okay. I guess it's, I'm ready to

0:38:32 Tom: Thomas Smith, Thomasing.

0:38:37 Eli: ADD, your mom tried her best.

0:38:37 Thomas: Die. I'm ready to die. Bye.

0:38:37 Tom: Smithing. Thomas mithing.