DOD257: Help, I'm Dating a Conspiracy Nut

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad, that's my thing I know now what I can offer you that no one else can Complete and under-dependent I'm a man, I'm sensitive I need to feel loved, I need part of being a father that I enjoy

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that does melt steel beams. I'm Tom Curry. I am joined, as always, by Thomas Smith and

0:00:36 Thomas: Steel beams of your heart.

0:00:36 Tom: Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen. Yes, indeed. Speaking of hearts, Valentine's Day is coming up. Thomas Smith, I know you're very excited. You've probably got plans on plans on waffles, yeah?

0:00:49 Thomas: Thank you for telling me. Thank you for informing me.

0:00:54 Tom: I know, I do. Oh, a me impersonation? Oh, wait. It's hard to do with three.

0:01:04 Eli: I do Thomas, and then Thomas does you, and you do me,

0:01:07 Thomas: I think what you're saying is you just make fun of everybody. It's fine. Just do that.

0:01:07 Eli: And we can just light the audience. The

0:01:12 Tom: Let's call it Dear Old Dads It'll be a show we do every week

0:01:15 Eli: Business as usual, yeah.

0:01:17 Thomas: You don't have to. And the Titanic.

0:01:20 Eli: Do you remember the necklace from the end of Titanic? I got it for her. It's not even that deep.

0:01:26 Tom: It's not very good actually

0:01:27 Thomas: It's right here. Yeah it's not even not even that deep

0:01:29 Eli: And the Titanic. I got the little smokestack, and Leonardo DiCaprio's body was down there. I brought that up as well, in case you wanted that. Cut to Thomas and June what's a valentine who's Lydia do you mean Remy yeah

0:01:36 Tom: I don't know why Oh my god I know I only brought it up because I know we're not all do you you celebrate it though eli you guys do stuff right yeah yeah yeah

0:02:07 Eli: Yeah no I can I say I fucking knocked out of the park with presents this year

0:02:10 Thomas: Did it already happen shit all right Well, I missed it anyway. The moment's passed.

0:02:11 Tom: Did you it's on the 14th yeah

0:02:11 Eli: I knocked out Thomas there's still time no no because this thing on Amazon says it could be here between 3 and 7 p .m. no no that's only if If you meet the $35 minimum and I'm not, I'm not going to meet that.

0:02:22 Tom: Nah probably

0:02:21 Thomas: I think Lydia finally... Lydia's taking it into her own hands and we have a trip planned to see James Acaster's show in San Francisco. Women can do Valentine's Day too.

0:02:42 Eli: But they shouldn't have we come out with that hot take yet about the like egalitarian Valentine's day is the saddest result of feminism and it wasn't worth it where some fucking man boy with a poopy pants is like actually equality means now that you do it and also you put a big soft worm in your mouth whenever I want yum Like it's fucking, it's so much worse to be a partner to a man than it is to be a partner, to a woman. The notion that like the flowers day is on us is too much. It's such a crazy, insane.

0:03:17 Thomas: Yes

0:03:18 Tom: Not well wait a minute because like hayley and I each get each other's stuff it's pretty uh reciprocal I know that I'll get some kind of a gift or gifts for valentine's and a nice card

0:03:28 Thomas: See eli so so that means

0:03:30 Eli: I didn't say not reciprocal, but if this year she said, you'd still get her stuff. Yeah.

0:03:33 Tom: Okay oh yeah 100 yeah there's no world where I'd be like well I'll just skip it

0:03:38 Eli: And you wouldn't be like, I'm not sure Haley loves me anymore. You'd be like I don't know. She doesn't want to do it this year. Fuck it.

0:03:45 Tom: Too yeah right it's not a birthday it's not a birth yeah it is it is different

0:03:48 Eli: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And even then, you only kind of get a birthday. Like, if Haley was like, Tom, we're not doing your birthday this year, you'd be like, all right, it's a busy year. We can't always do it. Who the fuck cares about 44? I don't know. We'll figure it out. We'll make it big on 45. But gentlemen, do you know the only thing worse than being a woman whose husband expects her to equally share the burden of Valentine's Day? Why? It's the auto ads. Yes, the auto -ads, the post -third -wave feminism of your podcasting experience. But you can make post -thirds -wave feminism go away by reading a single book on feminism or its intentions, and you can making our auto -ad go away over at patreon .com forward slash dear old dads. You get a commercial -free version of every single show. Are those like six minutes long, is my question? Is the podcast seven minutes long without ads? Either way you get it and a monthly bonus episode all sorts of behind the scenes extras pictures of thomas's wide open butthole all available at patreon .com forward slash dear old dads like lydia into a box of drugstore chocolate that thomas picked up on the way home rip into it the

0:04:07 Tom: Yeah oh my

0:05:06 Eli: Fuck's a Lindor

0:05:07 Thomas: That oh yeah, Lindors I'm gonna get some uh grab her some, grab her some Lindors oh let's all name names of other things we know I don't know another thing jesus

0:05:11 Tom: God uh some Lindors guys the leftover russell stover candies god is there anything bleaker by the way than fucking russell stover chocolates

0:05:25 Eli: One once again

0:05:26 Tom: Thomas every shitty box of chocolates were like every third chocolate is the worst flavor you've ever had and the chocolate tastes like wax covered in sugar that's what I'm talking about the russell this is

0:05:36 Thomas: I just know See's Candies. I don't know anything else.

0:05:39 Eli: And tom let me speak my truth let me speak my honest truth for a second because I was blasphemed this year so every year for thanksgiving I bring my family the mega 125 box of russell stovers is it terrible yes but it's the size of a garage door and it's fun so this year my mom's like like, what are you bringing?

0:06:03 Eli: I'm like, I'm bringing the garage door of fucking shitty chocolate. And she goes, no, nobody likes those. Bring nice chocolate. So I go out and I get a nice shot, go to fucking Fifth Avenue to a real chocolate shop.

0:05:54 Tom: Shit yes god

0:06:11 Thomas: YEAH well when you buy See's Candies—that's like, any more than I remember that was harder than buying my first house the first time around christmas when you start having a job but you don't make anyone you're like oh, See's Candies—maybe I'll get everybody See's Candies you're like well you can get the one that's just the wrappers and that's 49 .99 and then the ones that are uh have one chocolate is 79 .99 and then if you if you upgrade to the three chocolate box that one's 140 this is in 2008 I was like yeah I got a job I'll buy stuff now buy presents the See's Candies I need to take out a loan they're so expensive so I I guess I understand why you're trying to buy chocolate that is whatever the hell you're talking

0:06:56 Eli: Well, here's the thing, right? So I go to Fifth Avenue, to this fucking real chocolate shop, which by the way, kill me with a knife in the throat. Well sir, we have seven different dark variations. I'll kill myself in front of you, you, Lisbeth, just fucking put the chocolates in a box in a nice pattern. Please, thank you.

0:07:11 Tom: Love a chocolate shop god I love a chocolaterie man I'm like not there with you at all like I fucking love that shit we've got a handful out here it's like three dollars of chocolate and you're like that can't be worth it and it's like I'd pay ten dollars after you eat one of those things god

0:07:28 Eli: I got addicted to chocolate when I worked at Max Brenner's. Legitimately addicted to chocolate. The week after I got fired, not important why, the week after I got fired from Max Brenners, I was on my, like, Friday shift. I was getting itchy and I was like, what's wrong with me? And it was because I was not eating an entire pound of solid dark chocolate in between steps to the counter. So I go to the real chocolate shop, right? I get four $9 ,000 boxes of chocolate and bring it to my family. Do you know what every single member of my family said? Oh, you didn't get the big box this year. We love the big box.

0:07:56 Thomas: Jesus yeah uh yeah yeah geez

0:08:08 Eli: They wanted the big box. Woo!

0:08:05 Tom: Damn fuck yeah all

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0:08:16 Tom: Right so let's launch into an email and stop thinking about eli's big box this comes from margaret I'm a college student probably one of your rarer gen z listeners I've been listening to well very rare very rare

0:08:27 Eli: Relevance. Thank you, Margaret.

0:08:27 Thomas: Holy how did you find us did your grandfather show you

0:08:31 Tom: Well you'll find out in the next

0:08:33 Eli: Margaret, if you could, if you could tell your friends and family about the show, we would really appreciate it. The format's not going well, Margaret. Margaret, it's not going well.

0:08:40 Thomas: Yeah and she's named margaret are they pranking us with the old person names

0:08:49 Eli: Oh, Mr. Beast, Margaret, just tell me what to do. Just tell me. Do you want me to be a racist? Because I'll be a racist, Margaret if that's what you kids need. Thomas and Tom aren't on board with it, but I'm just, I want to make it.

0:08:56 Tom: Sentence jesus christ

0:08:57 Thomas: Okay you go to that really quick I don't know why he keeps suggesting it I I don't, it seems weird that it just keeps, it's his go -to.

0:09:03 Eli: That's why we don't get a Gen Z. Every time I meet a Gen

0:09:04 Tom: It's not the solution to everything it can't be the

0:09:06 Eli: Z listener, I lean

0:09:08 Thomas: Like, hi, I'm a racist.

0:09:08 Eli: In with my breath heavy with the scent of ketchup and I'm like, like, do you want me to be racist? No.

0:09:15 Thomas: Yeah, that would have worked a year ago, but now they know better. Now they've seen a year of Trump that no one could have predicted. They know better,

0:09:22 Tom: Solution yeah I've been listening to Dear Old Dads since I was 20 and three years later I'm still an avid fan my parents have actually followed your various shows for over 15 years and they raised me with a strong, skeptic, humanist worldview, which is part of why I ended up studying journalism. I recently started my first real relationship. They are a lovely, kind, and funny person who I care for very deeply. We hit it off instantly, and it's the first time in a long time I felt like I can really be myself around someone, unmasked, if you will. Everything has been new and exciting, and I've been really happy. The one area that's been tricky is that my partner tends to lean into conspiracy-style thinking. Things like 9/11 conspiracy claims, for example, the jet fuel can't melt steel beams argument, and some wild conspiratorial ideas about Israel. Ugh. In the past, I mostly let it slide or gently disagreed, but recently I pushed back more strongly during a conversation, and it didn't go so great. They got defensive, and I ended up having to comfort and reassure them that I don't think they're a dumbass. They said they were confused because they thought we were in agreement on this. The conversation kind of fizzled out without really resolving anything. Part of what makes this hard is that we've bonded very deeply, very quickly. We've shared things with each other that we haven't told anyone else, and we've both expressed really strong feelings. I don't want to ruin something that feels genuinely special by turning this into conflict when everything else between us is so good. I worry that if they were to say these things publicly, like at a party, I'd honestly feel embarrassed, which makes me wonder whether just letting it slide is

0:10:28 Thomas: Oh wow, boy, that's a bad sign, boy.

0:10:56 Tom: Even sustainable? So I guess my question is how do you guys think I can have a productive and empathetic conversation with my partner about their beliefs without making them feel attacked while still staying true to my own commitment to evidence-based thinking and how do I know whether it's something we can grow through together or something that might become a bigger issue later

0:11:16 Thomas: Oh man. Man. First off, hire Eli to make fun of them publicly all the time. Outsource it, and then you can be like, no, hey, it's not that fucking stupid what you're saying.

0:11:20 Eli: Yeah, until they stop believing. Oh, I hate that guy. Yeah. So, Margaret, I'm so glad you asked this question.

0:11:32 Thomas: Yeah, what a great email.

0:11:32 Eli: And also, please tell your friends how skibbity Ohio we are.

0:11:37 Thomas: That's already an old reference, I feel like. Planking?

0:11:38 Eli: What up, fam? Bad Bunny. I'm planking, in case you're wondering. On my end of the podcast, I am planking. So here's the thing, Margaret. You actually have a unique opportunity in me because I was, as some of our listeners know, a 9/11 conspiracy theorist. And here's the thing that I think is important to understand about people who are wrong about facts about the universe. All of them have an emotional reason for being wrong. So I've told this story other places. I'll try not to tell the wham wham version. The reason I ended up a 911 conspiracy theorist is that I got busted for pot possession and like the cop was very rough with me and very scary. I had a very scary, bad thing happen.

0:12:22 Tom: Bad

0:12:22 Eli: I had a bad arrest experience.

0:12:22 Tom: Arrest experience experience one star would not recommend that'll

0:12:26 Eli: Yes, exactly. And when I turned to the people in my life for empathy, they were like, you're a piece of shit. Now, in their defense, I was a piece of shit, but they did not recognize that I needed empathy and that I was scared and saddened by state violence. And everyone was too busy doing their political bit to be like, oh, you are a human being who requires empathy. They were We're like, you should try being a hound and wow. And I was like, oh no, I'm a real person and you're not tweeting. You're just looking at me and through me, right? And so I sought that empathy other places. And you know who was willing to tell me that the government is stacked against you? 9 -11 truthers and anti -government loons. And those anti - government loons, one, always met me with empathy first. Yes, you are right. Yes, something should have been done. No, you didn't deserve to be treated that way. And more importantly they provided an answer as to why the system was broken when everyone else just wanted to shame me for feeling bad yeah

0:12:36 Tom: Do it yeah so wait a minute even though it had nothing I just want to understand like even though your need for connection and understanding had nothing to do with conspiracy shit or whatever this was just a space where everybody was like yeah we're not thinking too hard about anything come on in huh

0:13:43 Eli: So the way that it went is basically I tried to file a complaint against the officer who arrested me and so I did a bunch of research online about like basically I just Googled a bunch of times how to have consequence for mean police officer right right you exactly you could file a complaint and got to keep in mind that part of what made this hard is every time I would talk to someone in my life who was quote on my side they would tell me how stupid I was and how selfish I was for trying to get this justice right I'll never forget this I talked to a teacher because I I was filing a claim with this board there was like a citizen's complaint board and I had a teacher who I really loved a political science teacher who I really loved and I told them like hey I'm in the middle of this thing there might be a lawsuit do you have any recommendations like I would really love I know it's pretty cool he let me fuck his wife but he was really mean in this moment so stay tuned so

0:13:58 Tom: 404 file not

0:14:33 Thomas: And your sci teacher was poly? That's fucking sick. Oh

0:14:40 Tom: Found

0:14:41 Eli: I was like do you have any advice and he said I would advise you to stop wasting people's time now look I want to be clear I think he was kind of right when I look at that scenario and when I think about myself as an adult I do think that was a waste of time I think me trying to make that into a full legal claim the way I thought should have been a legal claim. Doesn't really hold water. I've thought about it and researched it a bunch since then.

0:14:41 Tom: It's all part of

0:15:05 Thomas: And they're like oh actually state violence is fine and you they can actually

0:15:09 Eli: Yeah, it's not necessarily fine, but every time I ever imbibe a substance around a lawyer, 9 -11 truther Eli comes out and he's like, hey, let me ask you a question, okay? Because I'm pretty sure I deserved a Nobel Peace Prize and I never got one, so please affirm this for me. And pretty much every legal expert I've ever spoken to, certainly the lawyers have been like, like, yeah, that's sad. It certainly doesn't cross the line into like police brutality. I'm really sorry that happened to you. Or at the time it was, it doesn't crossed the line until police brutality, fuck you for desiring any kind of empathy, right? And so I was filing this thing with the board and it was in that information where I was looking into like how to make things. So one of them was like freedom of information requests. And if you're not aware, conspiracy theorists abuse use freedom of information requests all the time the other thing that intersects a ton with freedom of information quests and police brutality and all the all those sort of like anti -government claims are the sovereign citizens because one if you want real legal advice you have to talk to a lawyer which costs money

0:16:14 Eli: But you know who will give you advice for free sovereign citizens

0:16:17 Tom: Lunatics yeah so

0:16:17 Thomas: The dumbest fucking moron you've ever talked to in your

0:16:17 Eli: They'll be like yes exactly lunatics and morons will always be like here's my free youtube course and so I sort of had this idea about how I could do the thing. And that just sort of sent me down into a spiral of, because especially when I was researching the NYPD corruption, NYPD corruption, you Google that enough times, you get like three links in before they're like, and of course they helped with 9 -11. I tell all of you this, Margaret, not so that you can be empathetic to me, though I appreciate the several emails you've sent to tell me how sad it is and what a hero I am and that I do deserve a Nobel Peace Prize. No, it's because your partner probably is going through a similar thing.

0:16:57 Eli: This is a guess, but they live in a world, I mean, assuming they live right now and they're not a time traveler, they live in a world where systems are broken. You're a young person. They're probably a young person. And so they have looked at the world around them, seen tremendous injustice, seen tremendous unfairness and thought to themselves, there must be an explanation for this. And the explanation the unempathetic explanation that they get from the mainstream media is well if you kids were just wicked and your bootstraps and right they either get from the mainstream well if you guys weren't always killing avocado toast or whatever the fuck it is that we're supposed to be mad at gen z about this week or the like you kids are so woke with your fucking I would have voted for obama but instead I voted for time travel hitler because someone had a safe space nine years ago, right? Like all of these mainstream outlets where they might have found refuge or explanation for the way the world is have been corrupted by these billionaire oligarchs. But you know what feels very empathetic and very immediate? Conspiracy theory. Conspirancy theory is a very clean answer to why the world has broken. Because the real answer to the why the world is broken is incredibly messy and long and difficult and complicated

0:16:57 Thomas: Life

0:18:17 Tom: What is she supposed to do about it

0:18:19 Thomas: Skip to the part where it's how did you get out of it I guess

0:18:21 Tom: Though yeah yeah I mean should she just hire noah to yell at her

0:18:23 Thomas: A nice officer beat the shit out of me noah

0:18:25 Eli: Exactly so I always tell the story and obviously it's a little more complicated than that but like I talked to Noah about it—we were both skeptics I thought the word skeptic meant 9 -11 truther

0:18:34 Thomas: Beat the shit out of you for possession of conspiracy theories possession of irrationality he just totally beat the absolute shit out of you

0:18:36 Eli: Noah word beat the shit out of me but but more importantly he beat the shit out next to me and I got to pretend that it wasn't me and so the thing that happened is he talked about ideas with scorn as someone who I admired and liked in my workplace and I could yes and those ideas without feeling unsafe. The reason why this person's gonna have a hard time separating from those ideas through direct conversation is because they are emotionally attached to their ideas.

0:19:14 Tom: But you think they might be emotionally attached for reasons that have nothing to do with the ideas themselves potentially?

0:19:18 Eli: Yes, I think very few conspiracy theorists care about their ideas despite evidence, right.

0:19:23 Thomas: Well they really care about him but in a different emotional way that doesn't yeah

0:19:28 Eli: I think that they're very unattached to the ideas themselves because they're always self-conflicting. The Jews did 9 -11 and so did George W. Bush, right? He's either secretly Jewish or something happened, right. So I think the ideas themselves are not what they cling to. It's the sense of being in control of the world, right, and so what you want to do is you want to find a way, right exactly, for the Jews, you want to find a way for them to explore their ideas safely so I would for instance recommend the no rogan experience or cognitive dissonance right recommending podcasts where it is known that those things aren't true but is not an outright debunking of those things right if you send them our gam episode on zeitgeist this is hey you're wrong here's a podcast proving you wrong that's not going to work unless your partner is incredibly open -minded which would be awesome right but 99 of the time we're not everyone's not, unless your partner's incredibly open -minded, a direct piece of evidence about why they're wrong is not going to help. If anything, it's going to make them go, okay, well, I'll go do my own research and double down on their own beliefs. But if they can find a way to attach themselves to something positive, I cannot tell you how I'll just use No Rogan Experience as the example. I can't tell youhow many Joe Rogan listeners in my life I have converted with the no Rogin experience. Cause I'm like, oh my gosh, do you know the no Rogue experience? And they're like, like, yeah, I don't listen to Joe Rogan that often. I'm like, you should listen to these guys. They break down all the episodes. So you don't have to listen to the whole like five, six hour

0:19:49 Thomas: Like the jews are yeah yeah

0:21:01 Eli: Thing. Right. That's always my pitch for it. And someone goes, oh, great. I want to know what so and so said. And because of the way that each no Rogan episode is approached, right. It does almost approach every episode of no Rogin cult. There's never a time to talk about this asshole again in the intro and because of that I can't tell you how many I'm not kidding seven or eight people in my life who were like I don't agree with everything joe rogan says but have you heard his this every single one of them have been like dude he had some crazy people on right there's always three stages to introducing people to no rogan the first is dude he has crazy people on did you hear what this guy said and I'm like yeah no that's fucking crazy and then the second stage is I think joe rogan might be like a little bit crazy sometimes and then he's like man joe broke it's a piece of shit

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0:21:59 Tom: So there's a few things that like jump out at me from this email that I think like make me worried, like would make me very worried for Margaret.

0:22:03 Thomas: Me too mmhmm let me guess run say it on counter three ready I thought we were on the same page is Yeah. That's a big red flag.

0:22:11 Tom: Yes, I have that written down. Like you thought you were on the same page. You have this phrase like let it slide. And then like I think a big one is like if I go to a party, I'm going to be embarrassed. I wrote all those things down when I was reading this email because I thought to myself, like, if this doesn't get fixed, one, you have a mismatch in values and you have a brand new relationship that's in the middle of its honeymoon phase. I'm guessing here, but I don't think I'm just guessing because it's we've bonded very deeply, very quickly. Right.

0:22:41 Tom: That's right in the email. So it makes it sound like this was like a quick, deep, intense thing. But like you guys don't know each other all that well or you don't feel very comfortable being who you fully are and saying what you fully mean and expressing your worldview and as a result this other person your partner in this situation has sort of assumed a default position with and for you and that default position makes you feel kind of fucking embarrassed because like at the end of the day you don't respect it and that if it doesn't get resolved if you can't be fully deeply proud of who your partner is and I don't mean like accepting I mean proud of them if you're not like excited to put them on your arm and show them off to the world then you are going to resent the shit out of this person it's a fucking cancer for this so you've got to fix it like I will just put that out there there's no letting it slide here there's not like well maybe we can agree to to disagree fundamentally on our worldview and how we see the world and decide what's true and not true. I want to throw that out there that as far as your relationship goes, I genuinely think this is existential. Yeah.

0:23:49 Thomas: Totally agree. I picked out the same stuff. I think there's going to be a lot of sort of depends on how this is meant and it depends on the extent of it. When you said that they said, I thought we're on the same page about this. That really worried me because that might mean they're just not listening to you. You know what I mean? Like that could be bad. That worries me. That wears on me a lot. It could just be an innocent assumption, maybe, but I would worry that that means they haven't actually been listening to you this whole time. I think this listener rules and included that because they, I think they know, Tom, I Think they know that they have to figure this out because I think the writing's on the wall in terms of being embarrassed. You know, I, I thank you. Can't do that. I totally agree with you there. And so I guess like my worry is I think that there are people like Eli, and then I think there are who just have a natural inclination to this. And maybe that just means it's more more fundamental than a police officer beat the shit out of them it's more like their parents beat the shit you know it's who knows or it's just that was the way that reasoning was done when there were kids because there are people I've known like I know my brother had a friend that he had to just stop talking to because he just wouldn't he can't not think the most conspiratorial thing about everything and it wasn't just like yeah it was the conspiracy theories sure like like the ones you know but also it's just like everything like you'd be playing video games and he'd be like oh there's they're probably cheating or they have a thing where they're doing like they always has a theory about how someone's fucking screwing them over all the time like there's always some

0:25:20 Thomas: Sort of theory about and it's also just poorly reasoned because you'd like that doesn't make sense they couldn't do such and such thing that doesn't even make sense you know what I mean it's like we had to kind of stop talking to he wasn't he was my brother's friend but I also was playing with him and I was like yeah I can't because you know us It's like we can't just sit there and not say like, that's kind of fucking dumb.

0:25:20 Tom: Here's

0:25:40 Thomas: But I think it will really depend on how they are, what their theories are. I could also see like the way they describe this. Does it sound to you like this is pretty fundamental? Because I was going to say, I think there are people now, especially with how bad misinformation is on the Internet. I could see there being people who are actually genuinely taken in by a conspiracy theory. And they're not like a conspiracy-theory-minded person per se. I could see that happening once or so, or maybe twice, but do you take it to mean, I feel like this person's got conspiracy theories pretty much all across the board.

0:26:15 Tom: My thought on that, Thomas. This is somebody who is presumably also Gen Z. They are actually not even in the generational conspiracy space that they should be living in. This person, from what was described, is the conspiracy theories they're interested in are the Jews did it, whatever it is, like weird shit about the Jews, and 9 -11.

0:26:35 Thomas: Oh, okay. I heard Israel and 9/11. I didn't link those. I thought those were two different things.

0:26:41 Tom: Well, I think they are, but I'm just saying, if those are the things that as a Gen Z person, 9 -1 -1 was 25 years ago. If you're Gen Z, that's before you were born. Your focus is there. I think you're pretty deep in, I guess, is what I'm suggesting, if that's the space that you're in as a Generation Z person because you've actually gone into the Wayback Machine in order to build a worldview on prior facts.

0:26:52 Thomas: We saw those beams melt. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. That's fair. It's one thing to be like Epstein stuff or something.

0:27:09 Tom: Yeah, stuff that's like, right.

0:27:10 Thomas: It's another to be before you were born. Yeah. Okay. OK, no, I hear what you're saying. Yeah, for sure. Hmm.

0:27:15 Eli: And I'll also throw out there that the term I thought we were on the same page about this stuff could be the fact that a lot of the time 9/11 trutherism or conspiracies around israel start out with a social justice lens you can start with police brutality is bad and end at because they helped out with 9/11 and what your partner might mean when they say I thought we were on the same page is police brutality stuff I did not separate in my mind my beliefs about police brutality and 9/11 trutherism they were part of the same problem

0:27:30 Thomas: That's interesting. That'S interesting. I could see that specifically about the Israel one where it's like that could have been meant as a political thing more. Every single side of every argument has people who fucking suck who say the worst things. And that's true on every single side. Some of those sides are just always wrong. But there's there's other ones that are right about some things. And I could see them taking any pushback on the Israel thing as being like, oh, what are you fucking in favor of the genocide going on? Like I could. So I would say that's best case scenario. That's a good point, Eli. Like best case scenario, maybe that's how they meant it. Worst case scenario, they are truly not listening to this person, to their partner here. And it's just like, I would worry about that if they projected all of their opinions onto them without them actually saying them. Them.

0:28:36 Tom: I guess I've got a couple other things that I read in this that give me a lot of pause, too. There is a sense of distrust in systems and the world that is built into the conspiratorial worldview, right? Right. If you have a conspiratorial worldview, you are operating and living and looking at a world, walking around with a daily sense of distrust in what you see and what people tell you and how the systems and institutions operate fundamentally. That's a fucking big deal. I think that's a big deal if you don't share that sense of mistrust, distrust. I'm not sure what the fuck to do with or about that because I can't get to these conspiracies without a sense of like yeah they're fucking lying to us the big they the big sort of capital t they are trying to screw us over trying to lie to us you're like okay well specifically name the who is doing it like by their names and it's a problem so they're walking around with a worldview of distrust but I think also like just relationally two things one when When I read this, it's like, hey, I tried to talk to him about it and they got defensive and I ended up having to comfort them.

0:29:44 Tom: That is a glaring fucking screaming red flag to me.

0:29:50 Tom: It is for me. I think that there is a massive, massive red flag that if you are trying to have a real talk conversation with somebody and it devolves into all of a sudden you're comforting the other person rather than being able to work through the issue itself. Maybe this is just personal experience talking because I've had personal experience with this so like I grant that it colors it but like that is very often a sort of manipulation to deflect and like that shit is a fucking cancer and that'll yeah right

0:30:16 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. No, that's 100%. Yeah. Hold on. Hold on, Tom. Wait, that reminds me? Okay. First things first, it's going to be really funny if this person didn't say the partner's age because the partner is 40. If that's true, fuck that and leave. Yeah, that there's no chance. If this person is as young as you, I would note that there were many people on this podcast who might have sucked when they were 23 or whatever.

0:30:29 Eli: That would rule yeah a

0:30:41 Thomas: So I would say agreed that that's a red flag. Totally. A hundred percent agree with picking that out. Like if they do that all the time, I guess would be something to look out for a listener. Like, if that's anytime you have an argument and you know, if you're in the honeymoon phase, maybe you're not having many, but like, if anytime you're an argument, they find a way to emotionally manipulate it so that you're comforting them when you were the one who presented like, Hey, I have a problem with this or something that's a bad bad sign I will say that you can get better they can that's something that people can grow beyond, but I will also say that they might not grow for a while and it might be another partner down the line you know like it might be like who knows yeah

0:30:40 Eli: Hundred percent

0:31:20 Tom: And that's what I'm gonna jump in so the other thing I was gonna say is like hey you're 20 you're20 it shouldn't be this hard what's

0:31:27 Thomas: 23 or they've been listening since they were 20 and they're three years later they're still a fan

0:31:33 Tom: That okay you're 23 it's same thing

0:31:35 Thomas: You're practically dead you're so old no I'm just

0:31:37 Tom: Yeah honestly like you're like a year out of college if you went straight through like a relationship should not be this hard at 23 you're not married and have kids you know what I mean like you've not built a life together that you're okay well now we stumbled into this issue let's do some real heads down work and figure you're 23 years old relationships shouldn't be this hard you should not have like hey how are we gonna resolve this fundamental difference in world just go get a different relationship you're 33 years old but I think that's important like Like, this is part of what you're supposed to do at this age is to try people out, find out where you fit with people. Say, hey, you know what? You can fit with People in eight out of 10 categories. That feels pretty good until you get to those two out of ten. And then those two of 10, you're like, you know what, it's not enough because like at the end of the day, you're too young to settle. You're too Young to work this hard for a relationship where you're like, I'm not really proud to actually be with that person. What? What? I'm, not sure how I'm going to feel if they start talking at a party. Oh Oh my God.

0:32:34 Tom: My God. God why fix that you're so young you're not rooted together you don't have a you know you don't have fucking kids in real estate this isn't something that is really worth the juice isn't worth the squeeze here to fix at 23 years old that's kind of not what I think dating is even for at 23 years old I just don't think that's the purpose of dating at such a young age the purpose is to be like hey let's go find somebody not settle have a good time and like find somebody who like checks as many boxes as you can get somebody to check it's not to like fix people and solve big problems and the fuck no no no to all of that at that young of an age

0:33:14 Eli: I may be biased because this person sounds a lot like me so there's probably a lot of me that's biased because because I'm like, don't give up on young me. Young me was so sad. You can't give up on young me. So take what I have to say with a grain of salt. I think, in my experience, I have had lots of very good partners. Really, really, really good partners who are very, very, very bad at handling disagreement.

0:33:42 Eli: Ah, I see. Time for another Intelligence Squared debate. Well, allow me to prepare my notes and we shall exchange ideas as equals. I have lots of people, lots of people in my life, right? Not just romantic partners. Lots of people in my life who I cannot go, oh, you are wrong about that. I have to be like, oh, it might be different than that. So, like, I want to say that, yes, it could be manipulation. Could be someone being a bad partner. They could also just not be very good at handling disagreement.

0:34:13 Eli: And they might need you to marshmallow them.

0:34:15 Thomas: Those were all conditional statements I think those are all just things that I think we're worried about but there could be an explanation for that's not like terrible I agree with that I wouldn't I'm not saying like yeah yeah for sure

0:34:23 Eli: Especially

0:34:24 Tom: I agree too yeah I'm just saying like my personal view on young relationships is at a young age you should not be doing a lot of emotional work to help other people improve this is a time when when you're supposed to be working to help yourself improve. Like, it's not your job to play Mr. Fix-It, and also you're not qualified at 23 to do it. You don't know how to do It. You're trying to figure you out. The biggest project that you are going to undertake in your life in your 20s is you. And if you distract yourself in your early 20s with trying to take on the project of playing this old house with somebody else's emotional and psychological well-being, you're now focusing on the right part of your life. That's not for now. I think that's not for the now times when you're 23.

0:35:11 Thomas: I don't think you're wrong tom but I I think we had this discussion when we're talking about like oh when our kids have a you know high school sweetheart or whatever it's like I just don't think people listen to or use that advice. Like it's not wrong, but I just, I don't think that people make those decisions that way.

0:35:28 Tom: I don't think so either. Yeah.

0:35:28 Thomas: And maybe they do, but like I would offer that. I think this is also going to be something where it really depends on your history. You know, like there are people who might feel like, oh yeah, plenty of fish in the sea. I'll just, you know, I can date somebody else. There are people that feel like oh no, this is a good enough thing and and I am too worried about having to start over and find another thing. And it's like, it's not that easy to find people that you like or that you want to date, you know, like, especially. Yeah, well, you could be you could find an old person to be, you know. Sugar Daddy or something, if you listen to our decrepit show, you know.

0:35:53 Eli: When you listen to our podcast. You're a rare treasure. You want to date one of the

0:36:06 Tom: I actually agree with you. I think nobody listens to that. But I think part of the reason nobody listens to that is not enough people say it out loud. I think there is a tendency to treat young relationships the same as, you know, more established relationships and be like, oh, there's a problem. Let's problem solve it. And I think sometimes it's like, oh, there's a problem that's not worth the time right now like just go be with you

0:36:13 Thomas: Yeah, fair. I think if that's going to be the answer, there's no harm in trying to roast them out of being an idiot, you, you know, like if you're that point where you're like, all right, guess it's not worth it. You might as well give it a try of being like, oh, what? Fucking moron says what about the steel beam? Oh, hey, everybody at this party. My idiot partner thinks the steel guys come listen, gather in my dumb ass partner thinks the steel seam thing. Hold on. I'll say it again. Hold on, hold on. Start over. Start over again. It's so fucking stupid. Yeah, you know, but you can at least, uh, the, um, the real

0:36:35 Eli: Hosts yeah No, no. Say it in front of all these people. Say it, say it louder. God, I fucking hate you.

0:37:01 Thomas: Version of that is it's at least you might as Well, try like there. I don't think there's no reason to not give it a try.

0:37:12 Ad: [Ad break 3 — ad music]

0:37:14 Tom: All Right, so let's assume you're gonna try yeah so I think if you're going to try like I would be the worst. I just want to like raise my hand I would be the because like yeah yes yes

0:37:21 Eli: Tom, can I say something from my heart that is vulnerable? You just would start believing whatever crazy thing your partner believed. Thomas, I want you to picture yourself in front of a stone circle right now.

0:37:29 Tom: I would not. I could tell you that from experience I would not no

0:37:35 Eli: I want you to picture yourself walking around said stone circle and I think if you look into your heart and you know what is true you would just be like I mean it might have been the Jews, Eli's pretty shifty I'll ask him next time I see

0:37:47 Tom: I could tell you I could the way that I would approach this and nobody would like it and it'll break you guys up but whatever the way that I could approach it I mean, whatever, like, I don't value this relationship, but, like, the way I would ask the person genuine and honest questions about their beliefs and they won't stand up to scrutiny because nonsense cannot stand up to it and I wouldn't be obnoxious and socratic and annoying about it but like I would ask with genuineness and try to do it in good faith but like if somebody is going to talk to you about like some bullshit 9 -11 conspiracy stuff just be like hey where did you read that at I want to make sure and then if they're going to tell you where they, oh no, that's a YouTube video, like, did you actually, like, is there like something I can read on it somewhere that's like got some meat on its bones you know like and I would do that kind of stuff until it kind of comes to a

0:38:05 Eli: Him that's fair

0:38:31 Thomas: Alternative tell your partner to debate me and Eli on Serious Inquiries Only

0:38:50 Eli: Yes, now that means one: guaranteed they'll lose. Two: they will end up a right-wing famous person. So you do know that you roll that dice that they will eventually be retweeted by the president Yeah,

0:38:51 Tom: Head yeah

0:38:57 Thomas: Live uh I think some people we oh god I think think some people we argued with just kind of disappeared and that that probably means they realized they were wrong and never apologized you know you never know could be one of

0:39:10 Eli: No, sure. That's true. I like to imagine that they died in like really painful accidents, got trapped under buses or something.

0:39:13 Thomas: Those that could, yeah, could be that could be, dude. I've talked to. Speaking, just talking about that for fun because you're talking about James Lindsey, right?

0:39:21 Eli: I'm talking about all of them, but sure.

0:39:22 Thomas: Well that That actually got retweeted by the president I'll go. Do you want better? Did you you didn't interact with andy no did you. Yeah. He—I talked to him. He was at MythCon. He interviewed me at the Sargon thing.

0:39:35 Eli: I remember.

0:39:35 Thomas: That guy's like—that guy, I might as well be fucking the President. Like the amount yeah yep and he was at the antifa round table I don't think James Lindsey was at that. No, he wasn't. I think he's too weird, yeah. He had but it's just the the just I know it's an off topic but like the number of fucking people that eli and I have talked to who have met the President now because of their fucking right-wing bullshit is more than two.

0:39:37 Eli: Yeah he testified in front of Congress about the time someone threw a milkshake at him. He had a belt test that day for his sword caught us

0:39:52 Tom: It'd spit around with an axe or or whatever.

0:40:02 Eli: Met the president and also Epstein the convergence of the when I say that the Venn diagram of Epstein friends and fucking people who are in the president's circle the Venn diagram smushes gently against me and Thomas' cheeks without us actually making it into either

0:40:20 Thomas: God god It's so weird, fucking weird. Anyway, sorry about that. It's just—fucking, when you said, I was like, oh yeah, that's fucking weird. That we—how did that fucking happen? Anyway, it's hard because it's like how much spare time does this listener have because if you have the spare time and you like getting into it I could see taking the approach of like actually just hey I don't want to be wrong tell me about this so I can make sure I'm not wrong about this thing. There's so many people who are really, really good at debunking these things. And it's, it's not just that I found, I haven't looked at the 9 -11 stuff and God, it's probably been 15 years. But what amazed me about that is there's so much people who are so patient online who like, for some reason are able to genuinely entertain these stupid ideas and be like, oh yeah, well, if you look at that and just like calmly explain why they're wrong, and it'll be like an engineer, you know, somebody who's like actually works in this stuff, Which I can't imagine having that patience or calm, you know, especially if it was like expertise that I had, I'd just be like, you fucking idiot. It's obviously, but there's a lot of people online who like, yeah, you can just match YouTube video for YouTube video. I think then you'll discover whether or not this is solvable because at first they're obviously going to have an answer for everything. They'll have an answer, but if you get to the point where they

0:41:31 Tom: It's not solvable.

0:41:35 Eli: Circle just start believing in 9 -11 stuff I'm telling you Yeah.

0:41:40 Thomas: Just refuse to engage or they won't even take in the arguments or you'll have them dead to rights on an argument and they'll just do a yeah, but still essentially, then you're kind of fucked. They just don't want to ever change their beliefs. And if they ever do, It'll be slowly and internally over time. And it'll be in a way that they could like admit to themselves that they're, you know, because it's scary to be that wrong about something that fiercely, you know, like most people are not going to come back from that within the same relationship.

0:42:08 Tom: Look, here's why it's not going to work. And I'm sorry. It'S just not going work. I'm sOrry. It' s not. And it's nOt gOing to work because of this line from your email, Margaret. They got defensive and I ended up having to comfort and reassure them that I don't think they're a dumbass. That's the last part of it, that I DON'T think they are a dumb ass is the reason it's NOT going to wOrk. This is a person who has expressed to you in that sentence that when they feel challenged on these beliefs, they are not siloing and compartmentalizing these beliefs as these are some things that I think about the world. What they're doing is they're saying, when you talk to me about these things, I feel less than and I feel stupid and I have an emotional reaction about my self -worth. You're not fixing that. I'm sorry, Margaret. You're not fixing it. I hope they're really good in bed, though.

0:42:53 Thomas: You make a good point. Because you could also imagine a world in which the The partner said, you're an idiot, which I don't know which is better or worse. But the fact that the partner wasn't like, are you kidding me? You trust the official story, you fucking dummy. The fact that The Partner went to like putting them on the defensive that they yeah, yeah, exactly. That is worrisome. I don'T know.

0:43:10 Tom: That self-pitiful shit. Yeah, yeah. Again, like I don't want to—I'm going to do it. When that person takes a disagreement about a subject, internalizes it, turns it into a statement about their self -worth, and then now you've got to comfort them about how you don't think badly about them. That's garbage. That that's absolute trash. Like that's trash.

0:43:28 Thomas: But to but to go with Eli, there are people in my life who every single disagreement turns into a personal indictment at first in their minds. And then you have to wait, waiting for a cool down period. Period and then you gotta be like, okay, now can we talk about that in a way that wasn't an indictment on your person? Yeah.

0:43:45 Tom: And I think if it's like, hey, we got into a fight and this is how we fight. I think that's actually solvable. I think that's solvable. If it's like, hey, this is what I think about how the world works and how we decide true things, how the fuck are you gonna get past that?

0:44:00 Thomas: Also again because the relationship is probably not gonna work you can at least try stuff and I'm saying next time be like yeah no I think you're pretty dumb that's fucking I do think you'RE stupid and just see if you can shock them. I will also say this: one of the many reasons like all roads were converging on me not being a right-wing piece of shit over time. But when I still had some conservative views, and you really do—and maybe I'm universalizing, but whenever you make a transition in beliefs, especially when it's right to left, I do think you have to go through the phases of like, well, what if both sides are dumb? You know, like, it's just kind of inevitable. Like, people don't switch overnight, usually. And if they do, that means they're not attached to the ideas anyway. But like, it takes a while to go Through, you might have to, you may have to transition to them like, Like, okay, what about if only one of the Jews did 9 -11 and not all of them or something like that? One thing that really along the way did help me in that transition, and this was around Obama times when I was talking with Lydia at first, and it was really funny because I'd have like the asshole right -wing talking point still in my head sometimes about stuff like obviously the Obamacare debate and like all that, you know? And I'd be like, yeah, what do you, you Know, we'd be kind of talking about it and I'd be like yeah I don't know what do you I think maybe because I'd have like the small government kind of bullshit conservative view and then Lydia would be like I donno I kind of think that like maybe people should just be healthy and have health care and I was like man you're really nice and pretty and that's probably a good that makes sense why don't you just yeah yeah and

0:45:28 Eli: That's the other thing too—is you can fix a bunch of your partner, you can fix your partner by being a better person than them.

0:45:35 Thomas: It was also, yeah, just like calmly stating good person stuff. I don't know if that works on everyone. It worked on me where I was like, oh yeah, Lydia is not—because also, Lydia wasn't really like overtly political. She was just giving me like, this is what an average good person would say. I don't think there is such a thing, but like, this is what just a good person would say, not encumbered by all these bullshit arguments that people invent that are artificial. She's like, yeah, I think, you know, probably, like, people should be healthy. I was like, yeah, that's good. That's a good point. People should be healthy.

0:46:08 Thomas: That's very simple. I think that's probably okay. Okay, I'm going to wait a little while and then I will eventually incorporate my entire worldview into that.

0:46:16 Clip: DEAR OLD DAD

0:46:23 Eli: All right, gentlemen, before we go, if I want to be frank, I'm going to have to change my name.

0:46:30 Tom: I kind of love that one. Oh my God.

0:46:34 Thomas: Reminds me of like Naked Gun or something. Have you guys watched the Naked Gun recently? Because the new one came out. Yeah, the new One came out, I haven't watched it yet, but I was like, oh, I want to watch the old one before. That first movie is so fucking funny. I can't believe, it's not like every joke holds up, but I Was actually amazed at how good it was. And uh just remind me of that and then I'll check it out if people want to let's say does that hold oh good okay because that was the one that I liked from him because his movies suck actually I as a kid

0:46:39 Tom: No

0:46:40 Eli: The Old Ones.

0:46:56 Tom: My kids recently watched space balls and are like very happy with themselves mel

0:47:08 Thomas: Yeah as a kid you watch you want yes you watch robin hood men in tights right now watch it right now

0:47:08 Eli: What?

0:47:08 Tom: Brooks wait a minute wait a min are you shitting on mel brookes I would happily

0:47:16 Eli: It's fantastic.

0:47:15 Thomas: That is the worst move oh my no when it was last year we watched as kids and I fucking loved loved.

0:47:21 Tom: Young frankenstein amazing Amazing.

0:47:21 Thomas: It was my favorite thing in the world. Yeah.

0:47:23 Eli: So good.

0:47:23 Thomas: That no different era, different era. Young Frankenstein is great. Sorry. I should have said like the more, the newer ones, I guess I should have specified that it was when it, yeah, no, it's if you watch them as an adult, it is like the ratio of jokes that actually hit is so low. And then there is like three that are good. Blazing Saddles is okay.

0:47:31 Tom: Blazing Saddle, so good.

0:47:27 Eli: History of the world. Blazing saddles do you just dislike one movie when they

0:47:48 Thomas: Wait, which one is that?

0:47:49 Eli: Slam the dead pig on the table and he goes trafe come on in robin hood man of

0:47:49 Thomas: I might not have seen that. Oh man.

0:47:52 Eli: Tights so good so good

0:47:52 Thomas: Man, it's really bad. Okay, watch it now and you tell me. You tell me, it' so bad.

0:47:59 Tom: I would happily watch that right now.

0:48:00 Thomas: Did you say Abe Lincoln? It's so stupid.

0:48:01 Eli: Yeah so good and also you put a big soft worm in your mouth whenever I want yum yum

0:48:59 Thomas: My dumb ass partner thinks the steel beam thing. Hold on, say it again. Hold on. Start over.

0:49:04 Tom: Nobody would like it, and it'll break you guys up, but whatever.

0:49:07 Thomas: I think what you're saying is you just make fun of everybody. It's fine.