DOD255: Talk About Body Talk

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's chic as heroin. I'm Tom Curry, I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:37 Thomas: Hmm. What? Huh?

0:00:46 Tom: That's a tier that we didn't advertise necessarily on our Patreon, but you know.

0:00:53 Eli: That's between you and that Monopoly money guy who I picture representing capitalism. No.

0:00:59 Tom: You guys are quite a bit younger than I am, so like the heroin chic tread was not really a part of your lives, right? Like, yeah. Yeah.

0:01:05 Thomas: I did not understand what you were talking about in the intro, so...

0:01:08 Eli: To be fair, there's no reason Thomas would ever be in touch with culture at any point.

0:01:13 Tom: Okay, but Eli, if I was aware of a cultural touchstone, like that's like, it rises to a pretty significant level. Right.

0:01:13 Thomas: Yeah, that's true.

0:01:16 Eli: That's true. No, but it was a bad thing, so it probably happened to you. I imagine at some point in third grade, someone came in and they were like, Hey, kid, start doing heroin. It's heroin chic.

0:01:22 Tom: Yeah.

0:01:24 Thomas: Also, there's a thing where if you were... If Tom was young enough, you kind of had to participate in culture until you can become a conscientious objector later in life. I feel like as a kid, I

0:01:29 Eli: And you were like how come you didn't give this to anyone else?

0:01:40 Tom: That is very true. Yeah.

0:01:40 Thomas: Knew about culture stuff that I didn't necessarily know about later.

0:01:43 Tom: Right. And later you could just kind of drop out of life. And it's great. Like the more I drop out, the happier I am actually.

0:01:49 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, just doing no heroin by myself over here. Don't know anything about it being chic or whatever. Yeah.

0:01:52 Tom: So chic as fuck though, you know, like I'm accidentally chic as fuck.

0:01:58 Eli: Everyone eventually does heroin by themselves. You guys never did a lot of cocaine, but there's a real moment the first time you do cocaine by yourself, and you're just like, because it's me and cocaine time. Now, two things happen at that point. Either you die, right? You are several months away from an overdose, or you go, oh, man, no more cocaine for me. Oh, time to put away cocaine -ish things, as the Bible says. No.

0:02:00 Thomas: Oh. Wow. It's

0:02:27 Tom: Cocaine-ish things. Did I ever tell you the cocaine story about my buddy and the Chicago Bulls player? Okay.

0:02:34 Eli: No! Ooh!

0:02:37 Thomas: Gonna be like Len Bias and like, well, not exactly Chicago Bulls, oh

0:02:40 Tom: So So I'm, I'm hanging out with my buddy and I've got a very good friend, he lives in the city, very nice home. He and I met at our first title company, second for mine, but like young guys at the title company, and uh, he was young and broke, I was young and broke, we're both like pretty smart, very hard work and we're working like, like 12, 13 hour days together. He gets a small inheritance and turns it into many millions of dollars and is now quite rich. Yeah.

0:03:05 Thomas: Wow. What the fuck are you

0:03:06 Tom: I mean, he's a brilliant guy. I didn't get the inheritance. Yeah. Right.

0:03:09 Eli: He got the lucky half of the amulet and Tom, Tom did not.

0:03:11 Thomas: Doing? Yeah, oh yeah, that's

0:03:11 Tom: Yeah, he also got the inheritance that he was able to parlay. But like, yeah, that helps, you know. So now he's he's very I should have, man, I should've worked.

0:03:18 Thomas: Oh, you should have worked harder for inheritance. I don't know. Yeah.

0:03:20 Eli: You should have inherited something. You should've been nicer to that snapping turtle.

0:03:24 Tom: He and I have been friends now for almost 20 years, so we should check quite often. And I was hanging out with him, I guess it's six, seven years ago, something along those lines, maybe longer, I can't remember. I'm hanging out and I'm like, with him and we're drinking and having a good time and catching up. We only see each other every few years. I guess, it has to be nine, 10 years ago now, actually.

And he's like, hey, I'm going to call my guy and I am going to get some Coke. And I'm, like, yeah, dude, it's fucking your house. You can do whatever you want. And so he calls his guy and, like some dude, like rolls up and that's his Coke dealer. And this guy walks in the house and he's fucking enormous. Like, he's, like 150 feet tall and My buddy is grinning like ear to ear, like he's like showing me something, right? And I'm just like, that is a tall man, you know? But Like, I don't know this guy. So this guy comes in and my body buys a pretty significant amount of cocaine from him. Like, it's not a small amount, it's a thousand dollars or something worth of cocaine. Like it

0:04:01 Eli: Mmm.

0:04:19 Eli: That is a lot of cocaine.

0:04:19 Tom: Was a lot of cocaine. Yeah, that's who he is, right? And

0:04:21 Thomas: That is Like three gallons or something, I don't know.

0:04:23 Tom: So like, we're all, the three of us are now all kind of hanging out and bullshitting like a little bit, and then the guy's like, I gotta go out to my car. He's like, I'm double parked. And at first I'm like, I feel like if you're selling drugs, double parking calls some, like unnecessary attention to just your presence, and it's a bad call.

0:04:40 Eli: Yeah. Mm -hmm.

0:04:38 Thomas: You guys, emergency flashers on and

0:04:42 Tom: Right, yeah, right, like a road flares to, you know, go around. I just thought that was like a crazy aside. But so he leaves and my buddy turns to me and he's grinning, he's like, did you recognize him? And I'm like No, I didn't recognize that guy. And he starts laughing, he's like, that's so-and-so. I'm like, cool, I don't know. Like I was like, I was

0:04:53 Thomas: No, I'm Tom. Who's so-and-so, fucker? Are you gonna not tell us who it is?

0:05:03 Tom: Like, did we work with him? Like, I didn't know at all. I'm like, I was like, is this a co-worker we had that I don't remember from years ago? He's like, that's from the Chicago Bulls. He's like, my guy is a former Bulls player. And I was like, oh, well, all right. No, I would have known Dennis Rodman, that's the problem. Is like five Bulls players that I probably would have known. No, he was not white. No, no, no, but yeah, it cracked me up. So we're, we're hanging out. I don't know who that is.

0:05:15 Thomas: Please tell me you're talking about Dennis Rodman. Please tell me it was Dennis Rodman. Ah, wait, was he white? Ah, okay, that would have narrowed it down. Tony Kukoc, it's the one white player from the

0:05:34 Eli: Hey, Thomas, the sports people in our audience, fucking loved that one. Okay, buddy? Just because you didn't get any love on this podcast. Yeah.

0:05:38 Thomas: 90s. Hey, you should watch The Last Dance. You guys didn't watch The Last Dance? You should watch it just to get like all the memes from it. It was good. That was, that was a good thing. It came out during COVID. It's about the Michael Jordan, you know, championships. Everybody but you watched it. No? Okay, never mind.

0:05:55 Eli: Literally everybody except the two people on this. I was like, hey man, I'm sorry no one got your joke, and you were like, you guys should watch sport. You know what we should do? We should watch sports. Yeah.

0:06:03 Thomas: You know the meme that's Michael Jordan saying and I took that personally. That's it, and it's like it's a funny it's good. It makes a lot more sense when you've seen the documentary. You guys watch it, tell me what part you got. I'll watch it too. And

0:06:11 Eli: What's that, I'm gonna have, I'm going to pause the episode, you guys go watch the thing. Oh, but gentlemen, do you know the only thing worse than having your cocaine delivered by a top 10 basketball sensation? Why, it's the auto ads. The auto adds, the not having cocaine of your podcast podcasting experience. You wish you had a little cocaine right now, right? Wouldn't your day be a little more fun with some cocaine? But you can't have cocaine because you're an adult, or you're too young, or you don't know any people who are scary and dangerous, and that's just how your life has turned out. But you know what you can have? You know, it's like cocaine: parasocial relationships with podcasters over at patreon.com forward slash Dear Old Dads. We will someday deliver, deliver our top patron, a bag of cocaine. We won't say how, we won't say when, but

0:06:22 Thomas: The only thing worse than doing coke with Tony

0:06:54 Tom: Fentanyl? No, wait.

0:07:07 Eli: It's coming, buddy. It's coming.

0:07:10 Tom: And we'll double park.

0:07:10 Thomas: Cuco, oh nay, triple park, all three of us will be parked like, like, yeah, yeah.

0:07:14 Tom: All three of us. Well, if any time Eli parks, it's double parked at least. Yeah, right. So run over a fucking baby carriage with a fucking car full of cocaine in it.

0:07:17 Eli: Yeah, exactly.

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0:07:29 Thomas: So, uh, the other day, guys, my mom comes over for the semi-decadal visit and semi-annual, semi... oh, you know, it's kind of on me too, I don't know, I don't really try that hard to see her, but she comes in and it was just one of those moments where, you know, I felt kind of good. So, you know, there's some moments, speaking as someone who, I think, as a lot of people are like, like Tom, maybe trying to improve and get away from some of the things of what we grew up with, you know, some of the qualities.

Sometimes there's like, oh, damn, I haven't made as much growth as I thought. You know, sometimes there's those sad moments where you're like, ah, damn it. Right back where, you know, where I thought I wasn't kind of thing. Thought I was better than that.

And then sometimes there's the other moment, which was really nice, which is my mom comes in and within 14, 14 seconds I realized that she's done something that, like, oh, I don't do that with the kids, it's a good thing that I don't, and I was like, that's fantastic. So my kids were in and they're kind of still in a Stranger Things mode, did I talk about that on here, where it's the all we watch Stranger Things together, which is great, we finished the whole show, and of course kids being kids, they're like, let's watch it again, and so they just watch

0:07:38 Eli: She did the best she could. She did it the best. She could.

0:08:01 Tom: What's there to improve on? I don't understand. Everything was great.

0:08:46 Tom: Oh, God, no.

0:08:46 Thomas: It on repeat, which is like, there's worse things. I can't sit there with them and watch it because I've already seen it now too, too much, but there's worse things, at least I'm like, oh okay, yeah, go ahead and do that anyway. So they're watching Stranger Things and my mom comes in and within 14 seconds she's commented on, like, every single actor's body and she's like, oh, that, that guy has that bone thing with his shoulder, and I'm just like, all this stuff about the actors, and I was like, oh yeah, okay, all right, Mom, you know, because, like, we don't do that in this house and I think it's good, it's like something I've consciously made an effort to not do, which is like constantly commenting and critiquing, like, the physical appearance of fucking everybody, you know?

And it's like, I just realized in that moment, like, oh yeah, we, we don't do that. My kids are like, Oh, okay. Weird. You know? Yeah. They're like, yeah, they, yeah. First off, they're barely listening. Cause they're watching TV. So that was good. That was for the best. Yeah. Pretty much. But I just was, I was kind of proud of it. Cause it was like, that's a, that'S a thing that we just don't really do here.

0:08:50 Tom: Right.

0:09:34 Tom: They're not even going to understand it. They're just like, why are you? It's weird. You're being weird. Right. Yeah. We don't know that old lady. Why is that old Lady in our house? Yeah.

0:09:48 Tom: Yeah, I put this article in our Slack and I was, I've been thinking about this and Haley and I had a conversation about this because I think we've kind of come around and we've, we've decided culturally in a very right-headed way that, like, maybe we shouldn't have something to fucking say about everybody's body. And that's, that is just universally, like, that's a good thing. That is absolutely a good time. And then I also think that it maybe hinders us from having some conversations that I worry that we need to have because we're concerned about making sure we don't do it wrong or we feel like we don't have a right to do it or whatever it is.

0:10:04 Thomas: Yeah.

0:10:24 Thomas: For example, about how weird RFK Jr. looks. Did we lose Eli? Is Eli still... oh, okay. Sometimes he just disappears.

0:10:30 Tom: Yes, it does.

0:10:31 Eli: Oh, I'm here. I'm Here.

0:10:34 Thomas: It's interesting, the guy who swears he doesn't have ADHD, just sometimes just

0:10:38 Tom: Just just is gone.

0:10:40 Eli: Sometimes I, I'm biding my time. I was actually, I was, 'cause the beat that I had planned was a quiet beat where I was like, might as well tell a singer not to sing any songs or a painter. Sometimes we just don't need to paint like that. Sucks. I Yeah, you're right, but think about how good I am at making fun of people's bodies. I'm the Mike... oh, let me do it so that everyone gets it. I'm the Michael Jordan of making funofotherpeople'sbodies. And

0:10:48 Tom: He just yeah right

0:10:57 Thomas: Yeah, that's fair. Yeah.

0:11:03 Tom: And everybody everybody's like we're over basketball dude nobody

0:11:06 Eli: So, yes.

0:11:07 Thomas: And Eli took that personally.

0:11:07 Tom: Cares yeah right right no

0:11:07 Eli: And society was just like, "Basketball's a little mean." Uh-oh, no bad, because then other people who are basketball might feel basketball. I'm not talking about them, basketball. I'll talk about you, this basketball over here. Oh, I'm sorry. Is my calling taboo? Hey, Keats, I know you're like line 9 ,995. We're not really doing poetry anymore because not everyone can rhyme.

0:11:32 Thomas: Oh god

0:11:43 Eli: Anyways, Tom, you were making a good point about not being shitty to people and the tremendous amount of damage it probably causes to come on our people's body.

0:11:50 Tom: Well, no, I like my worry as we sort of navigate a household where, you know, Aislinn has ARFID, and there's a worry about her weight and eating disorders and that sort of thing. You don't want to veer into a territory, especially as things like skinny talk take hold, as celebrity culture grows thinner and thinner and thinner. I worry that we're veering into a directory that is well -intentioned but wrongly applied, where we decide we're just not going to notice these things. We're not going to notice as if they have no impact the cultural world that our kids are living in because we don't want to, like, oh, we don't want to comment on everybody's bodies. And it's like, well, kids are still absorbing messages culturally, socially, through media, through TikTok, through algorithms, through movies and all this stuff. They're absorbing all of that and like not commenting on it or not addressing it or pretending that it's not there, I don't think is a good answer. When you look at the comment section, so this is inspired by an article that I read from The Cut called The Era of Emaciation, Celebrities and Influencers.

0:12:59 Thomas: Oh Tom, I read things. I'm able to read words on a

0:13:02 Eli: Tom had me break through the fucking paywall for that for him, and then he immediately gave me homework with it. I'm never doing that for you again. He was like, can you get through the paywall? And I was like hackety hack hack. And he was like great read this fucking thing. I was Like fuck you Pirate me that book now read it all

0:13:16 Tom: 500 words, tops. The subline is celebrities and influencers have become worryingly thin. It's impossible not to notice. And I think when you look at the comment sections for things like this, there's a huge amount of people like, hey, can we stop talking about people's bodies?

0:13:36 Thomas: Page. Hmm.

0:13:36 Tom: Can we just not comment on people's Bodies? And I would say, no, we have to be careful about how we comment on People's BODies. But it would be wrong, I think, as parents to pretend that our kids are not living in a culture that has begun, especially with things like skinny talk and some of the messages there, that has began to refetishize skinniness, especially for girls, in ways that are unhealthy and damaging to their bodies and to their self -image. Yeah.

0:13:38 Thomas: Well,

0:14:04 Eli: The women are listening are like refetish eyes, baby We've been fat shamed for the last not since Ruben have we been allowed to eat a sandwich? I don't know what you heard Tom

0:14:12 Tom: I'm just saying it's gotten worse. Like there was in the 90s, like if you watch, it was crazy.

0:14:16 Thomas: It was really bad in the 90s and then it got like better and then worse again, right? Right. That's my kind of impression of it. Yeah.

0:14:21 Tom: Yes, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, right. And I totally recognize that like body issues have never gone away. You know, Even though, like, the thick thing is problematic, right? Like, these messages about bodies are not generally good, but I think we as parents have to be able to address them, and I think we run into a barrier where people are like, oh, you can't talk about people's bodies, and it's like, well, my kids are seeing it anyway and I think it's how, not if, you

0:14:44 Eli: Right,

0:14:27 Thomas: Right. Yeah. Also you want to be way hesitant, especially regarding women, you know, like extra so because of this, obviously. And that's why I think everyone was super duper relieved when that one fuck face also got Trump Mar -a -Lago face. You know who's that? You know, the representative who probably in the Epstein files, or if not, he fucked a kid. You now who I'm talking about. He resigned. Sorry, you're right. I've narrowed it it down to every one of them. Um, the guy, Florida, Matt Gates.

0:15:05 Eli: You got to be so much more specific. You're talking about thousands of people

0:15:06 Tom: Gotta be so much more specific. Yeah, like, what, are you narrow it down at all, like

0:15:12 Eli: Marshes in the Epstein files my man. I need you to limit this down do

0:15:18 Thomas: Matt Gates, how many Matt Gates's are there? No, remember, everybody was relieved when Matt Gates got a mar -a -lago face, so he'd be like, oh, thank God, we can talk about it. We can't talk about the fact that everybody over there, mainly the women obviously, plus Matt Gates and a few other men, are just butchering their faces in a disturbing, disturbing way, like a very, very disturbing way.

0:15:19 Eli: More Do more. Florida? Mm -hmm. Yeah.

0:15:40 Thomas: And it's like, you want to be able to say like, please don't do that. But also it's usually like women's faces and bodies. And you're like, I don't, someone else say, don't doing that. I don' t know.

0:15:51 Eli: Yeah, I mean, I think that what happens is that conversation just gets painted with too broad a brush, right? Because I think the "let's not comment on other people's bodies" conversation comes from walking through the grocery store every year since the day I was born and seeing, like, Rachel, what's her name? Rachel from Friends. Fuck it. Jennifer Aniston packs on the pounds at the beach. If every time I went to the beach, someone took constant photos until one of them was bad, and then they put it in front of a newspaper, in every grocery store in the United States, with like, little chubby, I would kill absolutely everyone involved. The grocery stores, the newspaper, the checkout clerks, everybody involved. Like, to acknowledge how insane we have been about fat shaming is to be part of that conversation. Conversation, but I think sometimes, especially for parents who, like, want to be good, we're like, great, don't talk about people's bodies. And then our kids are like, why is that person fat? And you're like, dude, no

0:16:06 Thomas: Yep. Oh yeah. Jesus. Jesus.

0:16:34 Thomas: Yeah,

0:16:34 Tom: Like, well,

0:16:51 Thomas: Yeah, there is that too.

0:16:51 Eli: Don't. Haven't you heard of Twiggy? No, that's like a 40-year-old reference. Okay, well, I need you to understand a lot of things. Yeah, I, I think it's also like what the context is, and that's part of the conversation that we need to have with our kids, right, when we talk about how people treat their bodies, right? Like, so I talk about the fact that I am fat with Max all the time and I don't use it as a negative thing, right.

I'll talk about my big belly or I'll talk about how my body is bigger and I have a bigger body because Max has my genes. He will probably have a better body. And we also talk about medicine that I take a medicine for my body, right, that makes my body because he's noticed that I'm getting a little smaller and I'm like, I take medicine for body that makes me a little bit smaller. It's important that we have those conversations.

And then on top of that, we defer to them and say like, Hey, and by the way, we don't talk about the fucking vice principal. If she also is a GLP one baddie, we don'T talk to her about how she's keeping her protein levels up. This is just inside the house.

0:17:52 Thomas: Yeah.

0:17:53 Tom: Like in this article, one of the things I thought gave me great pause was this woman is going through a story where her kids who already have some body issues that they're concerned about, they go to see the Wicked movie, the newest Wicked moving. And I guess the actresses from this movie are quite thin And she says, what did you think about the actress's or whatever? And this kid who's like 11 or 12 says something like, oh, body goals as a result, right? And if you watch, like, some of this stuff that's like popping off on

0:18:07 Thomas: Mm, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

0:18:21 Thomas: Dear God. You mean being green, right? Do you mean being green?

0:18:29 Eli: Please mean being green.

0:18:29 Tom: This, if you watch like some of the stuff that, like, popping off on, like, skinny talk, Haley and I were watching, like, a breakdown video of some of the this stuff, you know, some of these big skinny talk influencers, and these are huge huge huge accounts that have just an enormous following, so they're not like niche things, you know. They're talking about like, hey, when you're working out, don't do squats and don't doing this, don't that, because you'll get too thick of legs, do walking and running on a treadmill. Yeah, so like, the thing is, like

0:18:52 Thomas: Oh, shut up. God damn it. Oh no, you'll be too hot if you do this, so don't do it. Fuck you.

0:18:58 Tom: Yeah, there's a selling now to kids of a specific kind of skinny culture that has nothing to do with health at all, right? It has nothing to do with being healthy, being strong, being fit, it doesn't relate to that. It relates specifically to being skinny, and it is very much a throwback to when I was young in the 90s. Skinny was important, fit was not something people were talking about, it was being skinny, was being thin. It was like you didn't want to have an ass, you didn't want to have a chest, you didn't want to, I mean, like, it was fucking emaciated, and that's what the skinny talk is glorifying again. And then that, I think worryingly for, for me, sort of like rubs up against this very well-intentioned, we don't talk about other people's bodies.

And then who's left to talk to our kids about bodies, these influencers and they're influencers because they're influential and kids are living in a culture where they're absorbing that messaging.

And I worry that we're sort of well-intentioned and trying to avoid fat bat shaming, but then we're not able to then have real talk conversations about like the problematic world that these kids are growing up in and the sort of like goals, hashtag body goals, you know, that they're being sort of, like, railroaded into by

0:20:15 Eli: Absolutely. I also think that there's for so many of us, because social media and the rules of social media have blended into this like alternate Facebook life that so many people have. It's like, okay, I know that on social media, right? So let's use Ariana Grande as an example, right. So Ariana Grande looked to me unhealthily thin. I don't know. I'm not her fucking doctor. I've not in her inner circle. I am a fucking weirdo from upstate New York who thought 9-11 was done by the Me's at one point. So not a lot of great decision making, but when I saw her in that movie, I was like, too thin. I thought that was done by the Me's, and, like, I was going to eventually be it. I was gonna be at a temple service at one point, and they were gonna be like, and by the way, we got them. And I'm gonna be, I knew it, I knew him

0:20:48 Thomas: You thought they were done by the use, but they just weren't telling you about it? Man. You like weren't involved.

0:20:49 Tom: The me's.

0:21:03 Thomas: I love the idea that you weren't invited to the cabal, though, like you're not.

0:21:06 Eli: Have I not told you guys the story about me, like, kind of asking my dad if he'd ever heard any scuttlebutt about us doing 9 11?

0:21:12 Thomas: Oh, my God. No way.

0:21:13 Tom: Oh, my Lord.

0:21:13 Thomas: No way, no way. Oh, yeah, this is important.

0:21:14 Eli: So I was high all I promise I'll get back to our very serious topic about very serious things so I was high all the time at this point I had watched a bunch of zeitgeist I was also just doing a bunch like it's you

0:21:26 Thomas: Cocaine with the Chicago Bulls, you know.

0:21:27 Eli: Know I wish that would have been really cool so there's this thing called depressive psychosis which is that you get so depressed that your thoughts become distorted to the point of psychosis and part of that was the spiral that I had over the government thing and I've talked about this other places I won't bore you with it but like it was that I was like the result of a government conspiracy essentially oh yeah it

0:21:28 Tom: Right, right. Yeah.

0:21:48 Thomas: Dude, I don't think I know anything about this. What the fuck?

0:21:50 Tom: This is amazing. This is new lore.

0:21:50 Eli: Was it was not fun so I I call my dad who I can talk to about everything and um I don't know if you've ever had a psychotic person

0:21:57 Thomas: Dad, have you ever done any 9 -11s?

0:22:01 Eli: Almost word for word, Thomas. I don't know if you've had a person in psychosis try to have a heart-to-heart with you, but it's like when a real person does, right? They're like, "Hey man, I just got to tell you the ducks, the ducts mentioned that you beat your wife," and I, I, I want you to stop. I want you to stop that's not an okay way, and you would just have to take a second because they're doing the real tone to go. And so I got on the phone with my dad and I was like, has anyone ever mentioned, like, a secret society? And he was like, no, what kind of secret society? And I was like, so there's, I mean, I don't know if you know about this, but there's a there's there's a lot of evidence that, yeah, cause fucking there was Zeitgeist and then some YouTube videos and then some forum posts.

0:22:36 Thomas: I hate to be the one to have to break it to you.

0:22:38 Tom: Oh my God. There's a lot of evidence.

0:22:47 Eli: That's all the evidence I require. Yeah.

0:22:47 Thomas: Yeah, Alex Jones.

0:22:49 Tom: That's it. Yeah.

0:22:50 Eli: Dr. Reverend Alex Jones. I had all, yeah. So I definitely tried to like get with my dad and figure that out.

0:22:54 Tom: Jesus Christ.

0:22:55 Thomas: Yeah, that's so funny. So what do you say, do you say

0:23:00 Eli: Much as I love my dad, he handled that in exactly the way you're not supposed to, which he was like, you're full of shit. You need to get your head out of your ass. Look, I didn't think my dad was in on it, but I was like that poor Rube. That poor, feckless Rube Right, yeah, exactly

0:23:14 Tom: Go lift some weights some more, Dad. Jeez. What do you know?

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0:23:26 Eli: Don't take my word on anything, but I watched that movie because I like that musical and I was like, that lady too skinny That's probably not good And I also, because I know GLP -1 drugs are a thing Do I know if she's on them? Absolutely not But I was, like, she's probably on those And she probably takes them so that she can be too skinny Right?

I had all these thoughts in my head that I don't know, and there's two conversations that are both completely acceptable to have. The first is where I go into my online life and I'm like, "Oh, should I make a post about shitting on Ariana Grande's body and, like, calling her anorexic and making a bunch of assumptions about her medical health and her identity as a person?" No, shouldn't do that. It's bad. It's not nice. And then there's over here in my life where I have to talk to my kids about what a healthy body does and does not look like, and there I should talk about what healthy bodies do and do not look like.

And again, this is where the Charlie Kirk liars come out of the woodwork and they're like, actually, you're never supposed to say anything about bodies. And they're lying. We know they're lying and they know they'RE lying, but the Facebook part of their life has bled over into the real part of Their life. So they can't pretend. They're not always the person they are on Facebook. Yeah. And that's what I think the problem is here. Right.

Which is that like there There is a public persona version that we have all learned to have, and not talking about other people's bodies is a really, really good idea. And it kind of dribbles over into real life, because you should be careful how you talk about other People's Bodies, right? You should make...

0:23:32 Thomas: Like, yeah.

0:24:58 Thomas: Hey, I just want to remind you, there are some people, maybe just me, but there are some below just are the same everywhere, and it's kind of, I just, what I did is I decided to change my behavior as a person because it's not good to talk about people's bodies so much and And so I just don't do that. And it's not a virtue signaling thing online. I just wonder, I just, the possibility

0:25:03 Eli: There are some people who are the same everywhere we go.

0:25:11 Eli: Right, exactly. But for most people, they've just created a weird persona on the internet.

0:25:17 Thomas: That some people actually genuinely believe the things they say. I'm not saying it's everybody, but you know, it's definitely,

0:25:17 Tom: No.

0:25:18 Eli: Yeah. Not a fucking one.

0:25:23 Tom: No.

0:25:23 Eli: I hate to disagree with you, T -Dog, but I'd like you to visit the old Book of Face. You'll find you are alone. Alone.

0:25:23 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. No, you could find the many examples of people who don't, but I don't think it's like everybody. I think a lot of people genuinely are like, this is progress we should make as a society.

0:25:39 Eli: No, no. I don't think that guy thinks we really want to kill all the snakes either. I'd say that's just fucking lying. Nope. No. You know why? Because he drives a car and he goes to work and he has a nice day and he eats a sandwich. You can't function in. I know people who are in that level of psychosis all the time. They have these cool socks with grippies on the bottom and And they are being dealt with in a medical scenario. The idea that you go about your day, you watch two episodes of Stranger Things, then you log on and go, actually, I think you do want to kill all this. No, it doesn't happen.

0:25:42 Tom: I

0:25:45 Thomas: Oh, I think that guy does think that. I very much think that guys does think like that.

0:26:16 Tom: Got to bring it back a little bit because I think there's a tension that I want to acknowledge that I think is really important. And that's like, if we have conversations with our kids that focus entirely on, like, what healthy bodies do and what healthy bodies look like and all that stuff, I think that's great. And I think two-thirds of the conversation has to be dealing with the fact that people want to look a certain way. People like an a certain body aesthetic. We have to acknowledge that people deeply want to look a certainly way, and we have just say like, hey, you're gonna want to a certain way. Tell me about how you want to like, well how important is it to you?

And it's going to be different for different people, and they're going to have different fucking body goals, and they have going to have different people that they find influential or that they're going to like sort of like aesthetically look up to. And you can't tell kids, teenagers especially, young people who are just coming into their, you know, social, sexual prime, that they shouldn't or can't or what. Like, that's not a starter, that's just a total non-starter, right? Like, oh, that's Not What Health Looks Like. Like, if you're a kid, you're like, would you rather be attractive or healthy? I mean, I'll let me take that back for most people, right? I don't want to say kids, like, for many

0:26:45 Eli: Doesn't happen, yeah.

0:26:59 Thomas: Hmm.

0:27:31 Thomas: To be like attractive, yeah, right.

0:27:36 Eli: Luckily, some of us are both, Tom,

0:27:36 Tom: Many, many, many people. So I do think it's really important that we acknowledge that people want to look a certain way and that that will often be more important to them than being healthy, and unless you acknowledge that as a parent, like, you don't have a starting place where you can be on the same page, and that's fucking awkward, right? Because like the message we want to send is that our health Health is the most important thing. But, like, if that's the message that I'm getting, I'm going to be like, that's not that important to me. Like, I want to be attractive first, and then I'll worry about health later. And that's just true.

0:27:39 Eli: Blessed, yeah,

0:27:39 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:28:11 Eli: You have to add on to that the fact that if you are getting your what beauty is information from social media, that's fake

0:28:19 Thomas: Yeah, I don't know how many of the Ariana Grande photos are are actually just bullshit, like, I actually don't. No, some some amount of that was once there's a trend, then people make the exaggerated one, um, or, I say, I mean, people, it's evil ghouls, but it's it's also like the clickbaity, um, you know, pages or whatever. They'll make the, like, photoshopped version that's even emphasizes even more, like, how skinny she is. And I don't, I actually don't know because I haven't, like, taken the time to look. I don'T know how much of that is bullshit, like, some amount of the skinny crap you saw with her I think is bullshit, but I I don't know how much.

0:28:19 Tom: Yeah. Right.

0:28:27 Eli: Sure Yeah, a tremendous amount around it is bullshit. Do you remember when they, that headline was going around that they were in a non-loving something something fancy schmancy, right? They just put a bunch of relationship words together, and there was a headline going around that was like, this is what she and the green one are in, right? And that turned out to just be a hundred percent fake, right? That was fake news. So yeah, there's a tremendous about, but even when it comes to like beauty influencers, hashtag body goals, those photos are all photoshopped, right? You're never going to look like those beauty influencers, you like, because those have all been extensively put through filters and photoshopbed and, like, genetics aside, it's physically impossible, right, you know, I remember growing up and not understanding that, like, the ripped superhero bodies I saw were on roids, because roids to me was just professional weightlifters

0:29:08 Thomas: Hmm. Yeah. Hmm.

0:29:12 Tom: No. Yeah.

0:29:31 Tom: Yep. Yeah.

0:29:47 Eli: And I remember the first time someone mentioned, like, Hugh, what's his name? Wolverine.

0:29:51 Tom: Hugh Jackman.

0:29:51 Eli: Hugh Jackman being on roids every time he has to. And he hates being Wolverine because he's got to get back on steroids. And I was like, Hugh Jackmen's not on steroids. He's just a normal hot guy. And they're like, no man, he gets on a bunch of steroids and then he eats nothing and drinks no water. And they take six pictures and then they still use computer imaging on those fucking pictures.

0:29:51 Thomas: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

0:30:12 Tom: Right.

0:30:12 Eli: Right. And that's a really important conversation to have. Cause if you set your beauty standards at these things you see, especially things that mask themselves as reality. Speaking of everyone being a liar, but Thomas on the internet, right? You will always, always have a bad idea of what you can actually look like.

0:30:29 Tom: Yeah. Like, when I was a kid, when I was a young person, like the big controversy was photoshopping women on these magazine covers. And everybody was appalled. Like every, like, media critic and, like, fashion critic and body critic, yeah, but like, now it's basically the

0:30:41 Thomas: They should actually ban that. Yeah, true. Yeah. Yeah.

0:30:45 Tom: Same thing built into your phone as a filter, right? It used to be at least that, like, an editor had to do it and you had to buy the magazine, right? It was like, and now

0:30:53 Eli: You used to be a job creator.

0:30:55 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say. They used to look a man in the eye when you killed him. Now it's just a button you push.

0:31:00 Tom: It is though, like, a little bit, like, the ubiquity of these things has accelerated these trends in ways that are impossible to control, right? So it used to be like, yeah, that's a fucking magazine.

But it's like, I don't know, man, like if kids are spending the majority or a huge amount of their social time engaged on their phone, online, on screens, and the things that they see on there are impossible standards that are not actually real to start with, and that begins from a very young age, they're set so far back.

They're swimming uphill against a series of messaging that's impossible, and I just think that as parents, I don't know what the answer is. I don't even know how the conversation should go. I know that they're really important, and I know the answer to it can't be this sort of like, well, we can't comment on people's bodies, because like, we can't do it in a shitty, judgy way, a hundred percent. We can't decide, like, what bodies are good, what bodies are bad. I don't even think you can say what bodies are healthy and what bodies are unhealthy, because I don't think you can determine somebody's health from a glance at their body. That's not a real thing either.

But like, we have to have conversations with our kids about bodies in general, theirs and the ones that they see, and like, what their, like, aesthetic goals are and whether or not their genetics even make those realistic. Yeah, I think of, like, Finn on the boy's side, like, Fin's got my genetics, right? If Finn was like, "Dad, I really want to be slender so I can wear, like," yeah, like, I'm never going to be a slender guy. I am never ever ever going to to be a slender guy. For the past several years with Hayley, like, being sick many, many days, I eat one meal a day, she eats one meal every day, I eat with her, I might have a couple of snacks here and there, but I eat one meal per day and I don't lose any fucking weight. Like, it's

0:32:27 Eli: Lucky.

0:32:47 Tom: Just not, like, no.

0:32:47 Thomas: Until you get on the GLP -1.

0:32:47 Eli: Tom, the difference there is if you just don't stop eating, it does technically count as one meal,

0:32:53 Thomas: Yeah.

0:32:53 Tom: Yeah, one meal. I mean, it's a very calorie dense meal, but it's like, I'm just saying, like, for Finn and I, we are

0:32:53 Eli: But you need to, it's the, it's an entire bag of dog food. The big ones that you're supposed to put Putting the trash cans, the bugs don't get in them.

0:32:57 Thomas: It is pure motor oil rocket fuel.

0:33:09 Eli: I do one of those a day.

0:33:09 Tom: But For certain genetic types, it's going to be really hard to gain weight or really hard to lose weight or, like, you know, really hard to have a certain aesthetic. So I just, I'm just like very aware that these are really tough conversations that we need to have. And we have to be aware of, like, hey, what are you watching? Like, what aren't your fucking hashtag body goals? Because I got to tell you, like, I feel like we have an obligation to know that, like, to ask our kids that question and to see, like, how important on that continuum are these things to you? Because I know some people were like, looking good is way more important than being healthy. That's

0:33:33 Eli: Yeah, 100%.

0:33:43 Eli: And here's the thing. A buddy has said this to me a few years ago, and I think about it all the time. He said, any conversation you don't have with your kids, someone else will.

0:33:52 Tom: Exactly it. Yeah. Yep.

0:33:52 Thomas: Hmm.

0:33:53 Eli: So if you don'T want to talk about bodies, right? If you're one of the people that Thomas Pretends is real that just has a moratorium on body talk, someone else WILL have a conversation about bodies with your kid.

0:34:05 Tom: Yeah, yeah, man, that's exactly true.

0:34:06 Eli: And it'll be, it'll be the most money-making thing, which is the worst version of it. Always the worst version.

0:34:12 Thomas: So I got to talk to my kids about the Jewish cabal that did 9 -11, I guess. Fuck.

0:34:14 Eli: You do gotta talk about your kids about all that bullshit. Absolutely did. 9-11.

0:34:19 Thomas: Okay. So Eli's dad, um, kids, uh, I have

0:34:24 Eli: So do you know George Bush Jr.? He, it turns out he was the third worst president. I know, I know, I did not, I didn't think I would suck him out of a giant's dick to have him back, is what I'm telling you, kids. I would work that stump with all my might to have him back as president. He He wore a little cowboy hat. It was great. Why are you crying? I'm talking about, I'm going to talk about bodies eventually. No, not the giant I'm jerking former President George Bush Jr. out of.

0:34:25 Thomas: It on good authority.

0:34:53 Tom: Jesus Christ.

0:34:53 Eli: God, let a man build a moment, kids these days. Am I right?

0:34:53 Thomas: I

0:35:05 Ad: [Ad break 3 — ad music]

0:35:07 Thomas: Don't know what just happened. Did I interrupt you? What were you saying? Yeah. The conversations you got to have with your kids because someone else will.

0:35:08 Tom: I have no, I have have no idea what was going, I

0:35:13 Thomas: No, No, that's totally true. And mind you, I don't want people to mistake me for advocating the never saying anything.

0:35:13 Tom: Yeah, that is true.

0:35:18 Thomas: I think Tom's making a good point. Yeah, it's tricky. It's like, well, I think, Tom, didn't you talk about one time one of your kids just, or maybe that's the story you were starting to talk about. I can't remember where. It was like all of a sudden they had this idea of how skinny they should be. And it's like oh, where's that coming from? What am I remembering? Did that happen?

0:35:19 Eli: No, of course not. Yeah, yeah.

0:35:19 Tom: No, no, yeah.

0:35:38 Tom: All of my kids have ideas about what they bought their bodies to look like. I'm at least peripherally aware of several of them, right? So, like, amen, I don't think has any idea right now at 11

0:35:50 Eli: I've been texting him, but he won't, he,

0:35:50 Tom: Or at least he's, yeah, but Everybody else, you know, everybody else has expressed some desire to have a certain aesthetic and like, well, of course they, they have, you know, of course they have. They have a desire to have an aesthetic because everybody had a desire for a certain aesthetic. I have at 47 years old, part of why I work out is to stay healthy. And part of the way that I workout is to build a certain body aesthetic that I happen to like for myself, because there's a lot of different ways to work out and they're going to build different body types. So it'd be absurd and hypocritical.

0:35:53 Thomas: I Work out the door ripping off the hinges type, for example, says Tom. Yeah, yeah.

0:36:25 Eli: I love it when I can break things that I just try to touch gentle.

0:36:30 Tom: But like, it would be hypocritical to be like, yeah, like, aesthetics don't matter, all that matters is health, right? Like, that's an insane thing to say when we do and live our lives in ways that don't match that. And like, I also think it's really important to emphasize to our kids, and I know I touched on this, but I think it's really important, they have no idea if somebody's healthy based on looking at their body type, that you cannot know, you know, like somebody who's thin might be thin because they're sick, or they might not be, and somebody who's heavy might be able to run a marathon. You have no fucking

0:36:39 Thomas: My favorite

0:36:52 Eli: 100%. Mm -hmm. No.

0:37:03 Thomas: Example of this, just to do more sports that you guys don't care about, is Phil Kessel. Any chance you've heard of Phil Kesel? He's a hockey player who, no, he's a hockey player who looks like, well, now I don't want to, like, say anything bad about bodies, but he doesn't look like he would be an athlete of any kind. He's, yeah.

0:37:09 Tom: Idea. No, is he from Modern Family? I think he's from Modern

0:37:20 Eli: He sure doesn't. I've gone ahead and Googled him. Tom, this is what I imagine your brother looks like based on the descriptions. This is, I

0:37:26 Thomas: Yeah, Google Phil Kessel. This dude. Dude, fucking, not only was he a great hockey player, he's not playing anymore, although he probably could for some team. But I think he finally like nobody signed him. Not only is he a good hockey player. He has the Ironman record for most games played in a row without like missing a game. He couldn't be more like an amazing athlete. And he's overweight, you know, like round looking to your point of like you don't know what's actually healthy for people. Or like people have an idea of what an athletic body is. And that's even wrong oftentimes.

0:37:26 Tom: Family. Yeah.

0:37:57 Tom: Right.

0:37:57 Thomas: Times, because this guy, this guy's incredible. It's not actually athletic. And I also used to love, um, mixed martial arts for this reason, back before, you know, all the fascists took over UFC, or they were all there all along, but, you know, fucking Dana White. And dude

0:38:09 Eli: Put a picture of Phil into our Slack chat, Tom, just so you can see.

0:38:10 Tom: Yeah.

0:38:12 Thomas: This guy. Look at this guy. He was incredible. Yeah.

0:38:14 Tom: Okay, hang

0:38:13 Eli: He looks like one of your wife's friend's husbands who she tries to get you to hang out with. And you're like, no, I'm good. I'm going to

0:38:19 Thomas: Wouldn't it be like, imagine being like that guy fucking ruled as a hockey player. He did, he was good.

0:38:26 Eli: Imagine trying to fight. Hockey players can kind of fight, right? Imagine because I would absolutely pick a fight with this guy. I'd be like, come on, Gramps. And then he'd be like, I'm the Phil the Thrill Kessel. And I'd be, like, what do you mean, Phil the Thrill Kessel? You're a used car salesman.

0:38:29 Thomas: Yeah, he wasn't a fighter, but yeah, probably. Oh no, he'd kill you.

0:38:43 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, so good. Yeah, guy fucking ruled. So I was saying UFC as well, um, like I used to like that because there's, there's great memes where it's like, imagine try to explain to somebody in the 90s that the guy on the left could beat the shit out of the guy in the right, and the guy on the right will just be some skinny guy, and the gather I'll be a bodybuilder or whatever

0:38:43 Eli: And not a great one. You're an okay used car businessman.

0:38:43 Tom: On

0:39:00 Thomas: Because it's actually fighting body is not bodybuild or body really bodybuild her body is actually not useful for anything. Like, there's pretty much nothing unless you need to lift, I don't know, a very specific thing in a very scientific way.

0:39:00 Eli: Mm -hmm.

0:39:14 Eli: On the Ocho.

0:39:14 Thomas: It's actually not. Yeah.

0:39:14 Tom: It's not even great for lifting necessarily. Yeah.

0:39:17 Eli: Yeah.

0:39:17 Thomas: Tom would know better. Yeah, I don't, I don' know that much.

0:39:19 Tom: No, bodybuilding is specifically about, about creating an aesthetic. It's not necessarily about any kind of functional. I mean, you're going to be strong for Sure, don't get me wrong, but it is not the same as, like, power lifting, CrossFit, any of these sort of like other sports where there's a functional element to this. Like, body building is specifically to build an aesthetic. And it's actually kind of interesting when you, as a bodybuilder, if you were to go on competition day, that is the day you are absolutely the weakest.

0:39:28 Thomas: But sure Yeah, right.

0:39:48 Tom: So the day you aesthetically look the best, yeah, you're starved. You're dehydrated as fuck.

0:39:54 Eli: You're oily.

0:39:54 Tom: Like you are. Yeah. Yeah, I will

0:39:49 Thomas: You've starved yourself and

0:39:57 Eli: You look like an artificially hard dick, right?

0:40:00 Thomas: Stuff. Yeah.

0:40:00 Eli: Not a regular hard dick. Not like it's a good time. It's like a porn star took a nine Viagra and told his agent this is the last time, he swears. Liars level dick.

0:40:07 Thomas: Yeah, I

0:40:14 Tom: Say like I would never do bodybuilding.

0:40:17 Eli: Me neither, Tom.

0:40:17 Tom: I actually don't think that there is a lot of ways. I don't think there's a lot of ways to do bodybuilding that actually reflect a healthy self-image because of how toxic that culture that is around it is for the most part. Yeah.

0:40:28 Thomas: Think a lot of the women skinny stuff, or a lot of the stuff women do to look better, is the equivalent of bodybuilding. I don't think women are huge into bodybuilders, maybe some, but I don't really think they are. But I think the dudes think they aren't. I think other dudes are like, man, I bet women love that giant guy, and the, the same thing. Yeah, and the same thing with the super duper skinny stuff. That's the weird thing, is like, no one really wants this stuff, but everybody wants it. I don't get

0:40:35 Tom: Yeah.

0:40:42 Eli: Oh, it's the, yeah. It's the Batman Spider -Man thing.

0:40:54 Tom: What We're doing is like, we're all working toward social goals rather than goals that, like, on an individual level, everybody is like, hey, do we actually want this? And everyone's like, yeah, for themost part, no. And then it's like, yeah, but, you know, because we take everything to a crazy extreme, like, data does show that, like, Like, people tend to, like, in male bodies, tend to like a more muscular V -shaped body.

0:40:54 Thomas: It, it's weird.

0:41:21 Thomas: Right, but that's a slight, yeah, yeah, exactly.

0:41:21 Tom: But then we take it to an extreme that is, like. Insane. Right. And the same thing with, like thinness. Right. Like, it is not unclear that in the last, you know, hundred years or so, maybe a little less. Thinness in women has been socially, sexually desirable. But, like there's a level of, like craziness that people take it too. That it's not healthy.

0:41:38 Thomas: I don't defend men often, but I do want to say that if women could see in the average straight dude's heart how body positive they actually are in terms of their sexual tastes, I think it would be encouraging I think you'd be encouraging. No

0:41:49 Eli: Oh

0:41:50 Tom: Maybe the people you know.

0:41:50 Eli: Thomas. I wish I wish buddy, but unfortunate. So this actually brings me back to the Facebook liars because I think Thomas is right.

0:41:58 Thomas: I don't know. No, you are interpreting me as saying that. But I think like being super overweight or something is attractive to men. I'm not saying that.

0:42:05 Eli: No, no.

0:42:05 Thomas: I'm saying that like men actually really like, you know, hips and a butt and legs and stuff. The idea on social media and on these magazines in the 90s and shit is that men would like or anybody would like this, you know, four pound completely bone thin. And that's just not true. Like men actually aren't really like that.

0:42:23 Eli: So again, I think it's sort of comes from the Facebook liars, right? The opposite end of the Facebook liars. So the Facebook liars on the right have just repeated the lie that men find skinny more attractive so often, and the men insist on that so often, even though I agree with you that it's not true, that it's created this idea that that's what men are attracted to

0:42:48 Thomas: Oh, I didn't. OK. Yeah, I don't think it was anything to do with that, but I'll take your word for it. I was just talking about, like, you and I just don't even talk about whatever that is. Like, I mean, no

0:42:52 Eli: Oh, yeah. Well, you, because you don't talk about bodies with me. I wish I was someone nobody will. I text Tom pictures of strangers in public all the time, and I'm like, four out of seven. And he's like, stop, stop. Why would it be a scale of seven? I need the midpoint not to be even between the two. I don't know what to do with an even midpoint. It's a silly idea.

0:43:00 Thomas: No, I'm inviting the opportunity, like, our tastes, I think

0:43:08 Tom: I just think your odd seven scale is weird. That's the thing that throws me off. Yeah, are we doing decimals or not? I don't know if we're doing

0:43:21 Thomas: I think that most straight dudes, uh, I won't say most, I know many straight married dudes have the thing where their wife is complaining about their body and you're trying to say like, what the fuck are you talking about? Like, first off, let's have sex right now. I don't know what you're talking about, I'm into this body. Secondly, can you stop thinking these negative things about yourself? And yet it doesn't matter, doesn't work, and that society, do you guys not have this problem? I guess maybe it's Just me. Society tells women that they need to be a certain way, or something tells women they need to be certain way, and meanwhile often the dude in the relationship is like, what, stop, I don't not want that, like, just be normal, you're great.

0:43:46 Tom: Decimals? No, no.

0:43:57 Tom: Yep, but I think that there's, there's an interesting tension there that is, I don't know if I'll be able to properly articulate, but like, I think there is a distance and a difference, difference between wanting to be attractive sexually to your partner, which is generally a lower bar and easier to achieve, right? I think that's what you're putting your finger on, right? Yeah, right. And by that I mean, like, it doesn't conform to this very rigid, narrow social standard, and then there is the larger, but I also have to go out into the world and the entire world is telling me that if I look this other way, I will reap other social advantages. And so I need to look this another way, regardless of what my husband thinks or my wife thinks. If I look this other in the world, I'll reap other advantages. We do know for sure that people who are thought of as attractive are thought as being friendlier, as being smarter. There's a lot of like pretty privilege, a lot of attractiveness privilege that's documented and real. Yeah.

0:44:17 Thomas: First off, how dare you. Secondly, yes.

0:44:57 Thomas: I feel like I'm not, maybe I'm that, yeah. I'm saying that doesn't exist? That's not at all what I'm saying. Yes, this is, God, it's weird if this is just me. Have you not had, like, you know, your partner be like, oh, I need to be way skinnier here and here, and you're like, nope, don't care, not at all, don't need to do that?

0:45:12 Tom: But, but that's the thing, is I, I do understand what you're saying. What I'm saying is that they want to feel skinnier there, here, here, and here, not to be attractive to you. They already know they're attractive to you. They want to be attractive to the rest of the world because broadly that really is the message the world is sending them.

0:45:21 Thomas: Yeah, I know. Well, they might not, but yeah.

0:45:31 Thomas: Okay, I guess I was just, I didn't understand the attractive. I wasn't denying that attractiveness is a benefit in society. It sounded like you were saying I was because you were like, oh yeah, okay.

0:45:38 Tom: Right, no, I'm just saying like, that's why it's so important, is because it reaps so many benefits. And if society is sending us a message that attractiveness is narrow, it doesn't really matter so much if you're like, yeah, but honey, I think you're beautiful. It's like, yeah, but like, I got to go out in the world. I will be better socially accepted if I match this narrow prescription.

0:45:56 Thomas: Like, yeah, so I guess the mismatch that I'm trying to say is, like, why does this happen is, I don't actually think in the world it's true either. It's like a social media slash magazine back in the day thing. I donno, Hollywood pop culture version of what's attractive that I actually don't even think is what, quote unquote, the real world even necessarily thinks is attractive. That's what I think the the sickness is, and I don' know what that comes from.

0:46:21 Eli: Oh, a hundred percent.

0:46:22 Tom: I do too. I do though. Yeah. I think if you are a person who matches the social beauty standard that music videos and movies and television and social media all tells you is attractive, that you are going to reap more rewards than any other body type, more social rewards.

0:46:44 Thomas: Yeah, what I guess I'm saying, what, like, what creates that, I, I don't know what creates that fucking incentive for it to be this extreme plastic surgery, skinny type of person that actually in reality, I don't think most people think is that attractive.

0:46:57 Eli: So I think social media is so much more persuasive of our quote unquote self -image, right? Than our real interactions are, right.

0:47:04 Thomas: Yeah. No, no, I get that. I'm saying like, what, where does the version that that thinks is attractive come from? That's what I'm trying to say.

0:47:09 Tom: That I don't know.

0:47:10 Thomas: That's the thing I'm try to say,

0:47:10 Tom: Like, I will agree with that. Like I've never understood the origin. Yeah.

0:47:12 Eli: Oh. Where does like like thinness is a trend come in?

0:47:14 Thomas: Yeah, thinness and like, and a lot of the plastic surgery stuff they do,

0:47:16 Eli: Oh, we sell it. We sell it, yeah.

0:47:17 Tom: Oh, exclusivity.

0:47:19 Thomas: But why that you're still not answering. This is like, I'm tryna say, but who created God? And you're like, uh, the Bible or something. I'm like, no. No. Why is that the version and not something else? Like, I don't get what creates that. Like, you know what I mean?

0:47:22 Tom: Oh yeah.

0:47:31 Tom: My theory is that in part it's exclusivity, right? Because this, these body types are so difficult to achieve and they're so rare.

0:47:34 Thomas: Oh, that's interesting. That might make sense. Yeah.

0:47:39 Tom: I think it's easier to commodify things that are rare, right.

0:47:43 Thomas: That's a really good point.

0:47:43 Tom: And that's just true of all things, yeah, right.

0:47:44 Eli: And being thin is also expensive.

0:47:46 Thomas: Cause you, yeah, you couldn't really sell like, Hey, look pretty much like the average person.

0:47:51 Tom: Yeah.

0:47:51 Eli: Right, you can't sell. Think about the things that you get to add, diet pills and GLP -1s

0:47:51 Thomas: That'S a good point! I've never thought about it from that angle. Yeah, that'S a great point.

0:47:56 Tom: Yeah.

0:47:56 Eli: And fucking surgery. You can't cell normal body image.

0:47:59 Thomas: Huh. Well, I feel like that maybe should be a comforting thought to people. And I think, think that applies to men too, it's like, I think that's kind of fake, like, I actually think for the most part that's not what society in general, even for men and women, is going to think is really that attractive, like, if you meet a random person on the street, it's not going to be the same standard. And I think it's because that's a really good point, it's probably because of the exclusivity. Look

0:48:00 Tom: Right.

0:48:19 Eli: Have we not done an episode? Because we should do an episode called Women Don't Care About Looks At All, Yes, I'm Serious. Because it's one million percent true.

0:48:29 Thomas: At Phil Kessel, chick magnet.

0:48:30 Tom: I don't believe that.

0:48:31 Eli: One million. Women are aware that some men are more attractive than others. My wife isn't like, "Eli's the handsomest man in the world." They also don't fucking care even a little. They're like, "Yeah,

0:48:38 Thomas: I say that, by the way, I think you're the handsomest man." "No, they don't."

0:48:45 Tom: Uh, that's not

0:48:45 Eli: "No, that guy's hotter than you, but you remembered my favorite flowers, so come on over to Pram." They could

0:48:51 Thomas: Well, I disagree that last with that last part, but yes. I think this is so true.

0:48:51 Tom: True. Yeah.

0:48:51 Eli: Not give less of a shit about how hot you are.

0:48:57 Tom: I don' believe this at all. Yeah.

0:48:57 Thomas: I think, I think maybe not to the extreme Eli's saying, but I think the gulf between what men think women think and what women actually express on this attractiveness thing, it's so fucking huge. Like, women are so much more about demeanor and confidence and, and how men

0:49:13 Tom: But the idea that attractiveness doesn't matter at all, like, I know, I don''t know if you're kidding or, but like, if you''re saying that, like, as a real, and it does does not matter at all. I think that's patently insane.

0:49:24 Eli: I think when it comes to the real the real decision-making, they do, right? I'm not talking about which Instagram they hand around to their friends, right? I'm talking about when it comes to, like, making life decisions about who they marry and who they bone and who they have kids with, all the stuff, like push-comes-to-shove decisions, all one need do is visit the married philosophy professors of any philosophy department in this nation to see looks don't matter. Just a bridge stroke. This is Asmeranda! She used to work for Victoria's Secret, and now she cleans the gunk out from my wrinkles. And she's like, what can I say?

0:50:00 Thomas: Act, what the fuck?

0:50:03 Tom: Yeah.

0:50:03 Eli: Consent imperative of beauty, am I right? He taught me that, and then he remembered my favorite flower, so here I am. Have you not seen the, oh, dude, this is a fun game. This is an amazing game to play, which is called Philosophy Professor at Any Given University. Name a university, then go to their philosophy department, then Go to the Staff page, and you will see not just the smartest, loveliest people you will ever meet, you will also see the human randomizer hit on absolute zero 100 % of the time. Everybody looks,

0:50:06 Thomas: This is a weird direction our philosophy professors pulling, really heavy, uh, no, I don't know what this, okay.

0:50:34 Thomas: Okay, no, but you're saying they also have attractive, like, wives or something? Oh.

0:50:39 Eli: Spouses, every single time. Go to any department meeting in a philosophy department, everyone is married to an absolute Adonis descended from heaven, and they all look like they just emerged because a god jerked off onto dirt. 100 %of them.

0:50:53 Tom: I do not agree that it has no bearing at all, I think it has a way lesser bearing than a lot of people think that it does, I think there's a way less of a bearing than people, especially men, are selling other men, for sure, right? Like, men are selling to other men that is the only thing that matters, I think that's nonsense.

0:51:12 Eli: I'm just hitting all fucking homerooms. I literally googled philosophy professor and wife and it is just a series of smoke shows and the god damn Mouseketeer puppet they married. I am crushing this.

0:51:18 Thomas: Okay, Phil Kessel. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. I've never thought about, only you would notice to something like

0:51:28 Eli: I am squagooshing this so hard. I'm just scrolling through. I might as well have googled "Eli, you're right, and you've never been wrong about anything."

0:51:38 Clip: DEAR OLD DADS

0:51:38 Tom: Oh,

0:51:44 Eli: Gentlemen, before we go, what do you get when you cross a motorcycle with a joke? A Yamaha ha ha ha.

0:51:53 Tom: My God.

0:51:55 Thomas: That that's Stupid.

0:52:40 Eli: Oh man, no more cocaine for me.

0:52:45 Thomas: You know the representative who probably in the Epstein files, or if not he fucked a kid, you know who I'm talking about, he resigned.

0:52:50 Tom: You got to be so much more specific.

0:52:50 Eli: So much more specific, you're talking about thousands of people. Eli's the handsomest man in the world. Oh.

0:52:58 Tom: Yeah, that is a tall man.

0:53:02 Eli: I'm sorry, is my calling taboo?