SIO501: What Pluribus Gets Right about Neuroscience

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:11 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Serious Inquiries Only. This is episode 501. I'm your host, Thomas Smith, and got another fun science one for you. Have you been watching Severance? Oh, we have. Enjoyed it. Pretty good, pretty good. Well, so has Dr. Jenessa Seymour, and she wanted to talk about some interesting science that actually has some relevance to Severance. What might a hive mind actually be like? What would happen if our brains were maybe connected in some way? As much as that sounds like just pure sci-fi, turns out we can actually know something about that because of strange things that have happened to people's brains. And then scientists studied those people. It's another brainisode. We get to learn about experiments with ants as well, because they're kind of hive mindy things, sort of. So much fun stuff. And don't worry, no spoilers for Severance beyond like the first few minutes of the show. The basic concept. All right. Well, thanks so much for listening. As always, thanks so much for supporting. You can do so at patreon.com/seriouspod. You can avoid the ads and get a warm, fuzzy feeling in our hive mind that we all share. All right. After this, I'll be on with Jenessa. Jenessa, how's it going today?

0:01:27 Jenessa: Good. I got some bread rising for dinner later today. I've got a new video game I'm excited about. Life is going good and I'm pretending bad things aren't happening.

0:01:31 Thomas: Well, that's fun. Well, what are we doing here then? We're going to talk about Severance.

0:01:36 Jenessa: Yeah, you know, you're taking me away from it just so you can feel bad.

0:01:42 Thomas: Finale just aired. Obviously, I don't like spoilers. We don't need to spoil, but pretty good show. I liked it. It had a lot of the Vince Gilligan, nothing happens stuff, but it wasn't like for my money, it didn't quite as much earn it as say a Breaking Bad or a Better Call Saul, but was still enjoyable. I watched it, but we don't needs to get too into spoilers or anything. Thing, like I said, we can focus on just the central concept and do a bit of an old like philosophers in space type thing, I think. But there's a science tie-in that you wanted to discuss. You get your classic hive mind scenario, everybody. Yeah. I feel like ants are more of a

0:01:53 Jenessa: Yeah, so there's a theme that is not a spoiler because you will figure this out from, like, episode one. We have essentially a hive mind scenario yeah I mean it comes up quite a bit in sci-fi this idea of multiple minds connected so what looks like lots of independent beings is actually one and you know that term hive coming from this idea that like oh bees you know like is it a bunch of individual bees or is it a colony of bees is really more better thought of as one organism and you know it all depends on the level you're thinking of it at I guess uh yeah bees definitely

0:03:01 Thomas: Hive mind than bees, but I don't know. Are bees also a hive mind? Right. Yeah, which bees are

0:03:07 Jenessa: Have same as ants any one bee any one ant does not engage in a ton of terribly complex behavior but when you put them all together they do some things that are extremely impressive and they they coordinate. They're social insects. People tend to think of social as like something that would be very difficult and that requires a lot of intelligence. So like that's not fitting our concept of an insect very well. And yet we see them engage in very social behavior. Bees and ants. Bees take good care of each other and everything. Correct. Very real things they do.

0:03:40 Thomas: Ants? Oh, really? Yeah, I guess my question was going to be, and I don' t know if this distinction matters because well we're not dealing with sci-fi when we're talking about bees and ants we're dealing with stuff that exists how much of it is is a hive mind a useful comparison or it's

0:03:54 Jenessa: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. Yeah. No, no. I hear what you're saying. And yeah, like so on an individual level, they do engage in behaviors that are more complex than you would probably think. Like there's a really famous study where they were trying to figure out how do ants like they go to a thing and then they come back and they know how to get back to a location. And some of them do a chemical trail. Sure. Oh, yeah!

0:03:59 Thomas: Like well they are have evolved to do their jobs they've evolved to to do jobs and it coordinates together versus I know obviously there's not a literal like hive brain connection unless you're going to tell me there is but versus some amount of like active coordination that is interactive interactive rather than like, oh, now my ant instincts tell me to do this because this particular stimulus. And maybe there's not as big a distinction there as I'm making. It's kind of hard to parse that, I guess. But what do you think? They leave their smell. They leave this ant smell that only I can smell and also a percentage of us can smell. Can you tell us about that one? That was a famous comedy shoeshine where I talked about the smell of ants. And then I don't know know the percentages, but half the people are like, including Lydia is like, what the fuck are you talking about? And I'm like, yeah, man, the ant smell. What are you talking About it? It could not be more powerful to me. Like it's the most pungent thing. And apparently it's like a thing

0:05:12 Jenessa: Yeah, so I actually did a ton of research into this at the time because it was driving me nuts when I heard it. I can't smell it, I thought. So somebody did a study on it, trying to figure it out. And basically what it is, is they landed on a couple of chemicals that it probably is. And it's not the formic acid. That's what the big black ants make. And the little brown sugar ants do not make that chemical because that was the first thing everybody went to.

0:05:14 Thomas: That not everyone can smell. Ah, nice. Ooh. Hmm. Oh, you mean like everyone else in my entire life,

0:05:43 Jenessa: There's a certain alarm pheromone they release and when it comes to smells other than people who are truly anosmic like something has been damaged in their nose and they can't smell period or barely at all do you know, this is actually kind of a thing that has been observed with neurodivergent people as we seem to be sensitive to a lot of smells that other general sensory sensitivities yeah oh sure it's not universal but like I will be like something stinks in that fridge

0:05:58 Thomas: Apparently, but me. Yeah. It doesn't make any fucking sense to me that's one thing where I'm I'm like, I don't know what's happening with other people. But it's also like plenty of other neurodivergent people who don't know what the fuck I'm talking about, too. So it's not like a one to one. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:06:24 Jenessa: And people are like, what are you talking about? And I'm like, well, every time you open the door, I want to gag. And there's like a bad onion in a Ziploc in the back of a drawer. But like, I knew it was there. Yeah. So what it is, is everyone can smell it if it's concentrated

0:06:34 Thomas: And you and I are right and everyone else is wrong. Sorry, I broke no dissent on this. Sure.

0:06:45 Jenessa: Enough. It's just some people are more sensitive than others. And of course, ants were harmed in the making of this experiment. A man just like crushed them under people's nose and they were be like, oh yeah, there it is. I have never noticed it, but that could be because I don't know. Maybe I just think it's a kitchen smell. That's entirely possible. Yeah. Maybe you've

0:06:48 Thomas: Oh, I'm going to like barf. God, it's so powerful. You don't live amongst the ants like I live.

0:07:07 Thomas: I mean, I grew up in the country and there's more ant to human interaction than maybe your average thing. But I don't know.

0:07:15 Jenessa: Just noticed it and I didn't. You know what I thought is possible? The chemical is in like the

0:07:15 Thomas: We get plenty of times we get ants like in our suburb house now. Yeah, it's not really vinegar smell.

0:07:23 Jenessa: Acidic kind of family. And the one time we got ants real bad, my mom mopped the whole floor with white vinegar to try to get rid of them. So for all I know, I was like, Oh yeah, that smell from from the cleaner, from the getting rid of the ants. And for all I know, that was the smell of the ants like I never got up to him and like took a huff, you know? No, it's it's off of that. Oh,

0:07:43 Thomas: Yeah, I'm trying. I can't even describe it. It's like indescribable. I would say it's closer to like a... Okay, anything I say is going to seem wrong because there's nothing exactly what it is, but it's almost like a spray painty smell in a way. Like it's got a little bit of that. Oh, really? Oh, okay.

0:07:52 Jenessa: I can tell you terpenes. Terpene is the chemical family. And yeah, that falls into that. Yep.

0:08:03 Jenessa: No, no, no. They asked people who can smell it, tell us what it smells like. And then they grabbed

0:08:04 Thomas: Okay. So, okay. I was worried that I would say something that made no sense, but that's the closest I could kind of think of. That's funny. Oh, wow. Who thought to do that? Was spray paint

0:08:15 Jenessa: A bunch of things they thought it might be. And they like crush the ant and smell it. And and then they brought them other chemicals that it could be one of the things they did is um some people say rotten coconut so they just buried a bag of coconut in the backyard for a little while and brought that over yeah I think terpenes are in that like aerosol aerosols have it I'm dragging

0:08:35 Thomas: Any of it? Because I don't know anything about this. That was just something I was offering from my memory. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, that makes me feel better. I'm going to have to go smell a rotten coconut real quick. And they're not just borrowing their homework of the other

0:08:45 Jenessa: This out of my memory from a couple of years ago yeah so some ants make a chemical trail but some Some ants don't, and yet they can get to and from objects. So how the hell are they doing it?

0:09:02 Thomas: Ant that already did it yeah oh wow they've got like a little ant I watch that they're you know

0:09:03 Jenessa: Well, so there is the thing of how ants and bees tell each other how to go find something, which is super interesting. But this is separately. If I'm going to tell you how to get there, I must know how to getting there. So how do I know how to get there? And somebody said, I think they count their steps. In what universe?

0:09:23 Thomas: Apple watch that their like who is this insane fucking person no way this is incredible I love

0:09:24 Jenessa: That, yeah, like, what are you talking about? So what he did is he glued stilts to it so that it would be wrong counting its steps and it it overshot the hive he was right he was a hundred percent correct and it changed science yeah for real right exactly if you think the human subject psych

0:09:40 Thomas: This I love how often in science it's like some fucking nutcase is just like I think ants if they they had stilts, they wouldn't be able to get to their thing. And you're like, Jesus Christ, we need to put this person away in a mental institution. And then they're like I did the experiment. I was right. Holy fucking shit. You're a genius. I love it. That's why we need people who think differently, you know, because that is so funny. I wouldn't have thought of that in a million billion years. That'S incredible. Oh, my God. The bug perverts. Yeah. They put

0:10:14 Jenessa: Psych people get up to some weird shit. We have nothing on the bug people. The bug people are out of control. You know, that part I don't know. In that experiment, it was just a straight

0:10:23 Thomas: Put little stilts on it. That is the funniest thing. Okay, they get steps. How do they get directionality? Do they just save that somehow? Like five steps this way, 10 steps that way, you know? Get gluing. Get back to gluing, that weird guy.

0:10:36 Jenessa: Line. They must communicate it somehow. But yeah, I mean, those ants would walk to the thing and

0:10:39 Thomas: But still, how would they know which straight line to go at, you know? They have to have direction. Wow, that's so funny.

0:10:48 Jenessa: Then he would put little stilts on them and they would overshoot their hive and go, where the fuck is my house? I'm lost. They would like stop at the point that would be the right number of steps, but is now the wrong distance and give you the ant version of looking real confused about why they're not home. Yeah. Like, isn't it? It's such a good study. So anyway, yeah. Cognitively,

0:10:56 Thomas: Holy shit. Yeah, like what the fuck? I don't even recognize this McDonald's. What the hell? That's incredible. I did not know this and I love it. Yeah ant stilts yeah yeah yeah pretty badass yeah I think they're just doing that for fun that part's

0:11:17 Jenessa: I know that sounds so simple, but actually that cognitively quite complex that this animal is going one two three four like okay cool and that's an individual all by itself where you get this hive mind idea I think what really happened is if I say it a certain way it gives you that like pothead whoa like any one ant isn't intelligent but all the ants together are is like and I think that our understanding of the word intelligence is far too vague like that word is not useful because it's really as a group they engage in some extremely complex behaviors they build bridges out of their bodies to get over water and they the bees do a little dance and tell each other where to get honey and uh nectar it is of all the ways yeah I mean it is a very of all

0:12:10 Thomas: Silly they're like you know whistle while you work like hey why don't we just do a little dance here we're fucking bees we got nothing else going on it's the silliest sure sure right so but that's

0:12:20 Jenessa: All the things they could have chosen as a method or evolved to do. It is the silliest. It's very silly looking. Yeah, when you describe it that way, I mean, yeah, I mean, that's true of us too, right? Like my dad can do some impressive architecture, but I have to stand there and hold stuff for him and hand him tools while he does it. He needs help. I think that's like how sci-fi kind of got this idea of like, whoa, like all together, they're more intelligent than the individual. And it's like yeah but that's you know it's kind of to be expected yeah yeah yeah they seem to

0:12:52 Thomas: A distinct thing because this isn't a literal hive mind with the with the plur— ibus to make sure we give the concept enough for anyone who's not watching it. It's an alien virus. And like you said, this happens all within the first episode, but it's a mild spoilers for that episode. If you, you know, want to watch it. Pretty fun show. I recommend it. For me, it was like a B plus, but like a, you know B plus still pretty good. But anyway, point is a virus one way or the other gets to earth and the virus kind of all connects the humans together. And now what's not clear to me, and I don't think this is important for our purposes today, but is not clear clear to me how that then also tunes into the alien consciousness because it's like for a while I wasn't sure if they were saying like oh no they're just a hive mind and this is their personality based on the sum total of all human consciousness but it also seems like they know a bunch at least somewhat about like the alien planet they're from so like it also somehow contained alien consciousness that part I'm not sure if that quite works or if I'm maybe I'm missing something but But anyway, yeah, they can't connect, but they know where it is.

0:13:56 Jenessa: Allude frequently to the fact that they are not able to connect across that distance of like many light years it came with a couple of basics right in a way they are a whole they are

0:14:05 Thomas: And like, they know about it in a way that like, seems like there had to have been some information somehow. Maybe it's like the BIOS, you know, they've got like the, yeah. It has a couple of megabytes of information about who they are and whatever. For that one, it's not really like ants. It's like any one person now contains all of the consciousness and all of the knowledge of them. It's not like, oh, each has their little role to play. The hive mind thing is like oh no each one of them can essentially represent the knowledge of the entire whole yeah and they they do say we all the time which I like I love it I I do appreciate

0:14:40 Jenessa: Are not individuals anymore. Like using an I pronoun is strange and unnatural. Yeah. Like there's no need to talk because if I know a thing, you know, a thing. Yes. Right. Right?

0:14:55 Thomas: That because it's Vince Gilligan he did largely button up those things that bother me so much like when the when the robots that are all part of the same computer go and talk to each other and bad guy speak because they're the bad guys of the movie or whatever you're just like they They wouldn't even do that.

0:15:08 Jenessa: There would be no reason. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like Mass Effect did this really well

0:15:09 Thomas: You're just doing that because you want me to follow it. But that's stupid. Like, I like that. They don't they don't bother with that. It was really good in that respect. And I did appreciate that. No, I didn't.

0:15:22 Jenessa: Also with like, did you play that game? Oh, there's a very good thing with some hive mindy robots. And I don't know if I don t want to spoil this 20-year-old game. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's

0:15:30 Thomas: No, don't don't. Don't actually, because I might play it someday. But but anyway, it's good. Like it.

0:15:39 Jenessa: A cool thing with hive-minded robots, and they managed to make that very emotional, which is cool. So essentially, setting that up. Okay, the part where, despite the fact that they are not physically connected, their brains can talk to each other. Yeah. I mean, that's just sci-fi, right like that's not a thing obviously um we don't have telepathic communication we don'T have any even remotely hypothetical mechanism by which that could you know I mean I have a way for my neurons to influence your neurons we're doing it right now you know indirectly but that's NOT what anybody means when they ask that question for like directly my neuron thinks a thing and and that makes your neuron think a thing. Yeah, we don't have that. The question that I think was so interesting is like, okay, so essentially, they hand wave a little bit about it. I think actually they're less hand waving now and more getting at like, it might become interesting to ask how this is possible. But if that were possible in the real world, would we be able to have individuality and also I could directly connect my brain to yours. And I think what's interesting is that seems like, well, we can't do that. So we'd just be in philosophy land hypothesizing. But I think we actually have a really good neuroscience answer right now of, no, you couldn't be an individual and have our brains directly talk.

0:17:11 Jenessa: I know that sounds strange, but I wouldn't say certainty,

0:17:11 Thomas: I like it. Yeah. How do you how do you know that? Let's explore that. I want to know how you know with certainty. Oh, okay. Sure. Sure, love it. I had mine flattened because it looks better,

0:17:20 Jenessa: But I feel pretty confident about this. So come with me on a journey. We got some setup here. You have two hemispheres in your brain and there's this giant structure in the middle called the corpus callosum that connects the two. It's like a giant highway, big white matter tract. It's not the only place where information is transferred but it's basically where 99% of information is transferred and very specifically where a lot of the conscious stuff goes on so like your cortex the part you think of when you picture a brain the wrinkly parts that is the cortex of the brain that is the human-y kind of parts. It's the very wrinkly parts. Yeah, yeah. On other animals, it's smooth, and the smoother it gets, the less complex their behaviors are, and the more we think they're maybe not engaging in a lot of sentient behavior over there. There's deeper down stuff where things are connected, but that is where a lot lot of unconscious things go on. So for example, if these connections, if the corpus callosum is damaged or cut, you can still transfer information lower down. We'll see you engage in behaviors that

0:18:19 Thomas: But yeah, I get what you're saying. Sounds like me. Wait, but that's interesting. So you're

0:18:55 Jenessa: Show brainstem structures are correctly communicating, but you won't consciously report it. So the important part of that being the information leakage that'll still happen elsewhere between the hemispheres, it's not enough to get like good conscious awareness of what's going on. It's not so much they can still communicate, it'S that other brain structures.

0:19:16 Thomas: Saying that the corpus callosum, whatever, corpus callosum thing is the way that the hemispheres communicate, but when something happens they can still communicate,but just not enough? Hmm. Okay, that is

0:19:32 Jenessa: For example, there's a part near the front of the brain called the anterior commissure. That is where information crosses. You know how your right hand goes to your left left brain. Your left hand goes your right brain. That is true. Yes. So the sensation of your right

0:19:47 Thomas: True. I wasn't sure if that was one of those fake things. Okay. That's a real one. Okay Okay. Why the hell is that? Sorry to distract, but just the way the wiring happened. All right.

0:19:54 Jenessa: Hand being touched will be perceived in the left somatosensory cortex, and the movement of your right hand will come from the left motor cortex. So right to left and left to right. Um, you know, I don't know. Yeah, focus. It's a very interesting question. I feel like I looked it up once and and couldn't get a satisfying answer. Your eyes are not like that. It's not right eye to left hemisphere, left eye to right hemisphere. It is actually split by visual field instead,

0:20:13 Thomas: Okay. I won't distract you. Stay where you were. I don't know why that made me laugh, but that'd be fun. It seems like it's like I'd be cross-eyed. I know just for some reason, I had the image of like that being really dumb. What the fuck? Oh, wow. Sorry. If it's my left,

0:20:36 Jenessa: Which might seem like it makes more sense. The left side of the world goes to the right hemisphere, and the right side of world goes the left hemisphere. So if you think about a photon bouncing coming from the left hits the right side of both eyes if it comes from very far on the left it would only hit the left eye because like your nose will get in the way or something no you gotta you gotta draw it if you to try to picture it so like if it came from straight ahead it would go straight in your eye yeah your left you're still drawing a straight line in though so like think

0:21:00 Thomas: It's going to hit the left side of both my eyes, right? Sure. Of course. Yeah. If if it's from my left, are we doing a stage left thing? If it's coming from my left, it's hitting the left side of my eyes. What am I missing? Oh, because you're talking about the back of your eye. Oh, yeah, duh.

0:21:21 Jenessa: Think of it like if it came from the left going on like a 45 degree angle at your face, it would hit the right side of the back of your eye. Oh, yeah, yeah.

0:21:34 Thomas: I forgot the whole back of your eye thing. That makes more sense.

0:21:37 Jenessa: Yeah, it's going to go through your pupil, strike the back of your eyes, and that's the place where the photon hits a receptor and becomes an electrical signal.

0:21:44 Thomas: Gotcha. Right. Gotta remember, you're talking to an idiot. I thought the front of the eye was the part that I forgot that that doesn't do anything. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of like, yeah. Focusing the, the, yeah, exactly. Yeah, gotcha. So here's

0:21:53 Jenessa: It's not neurologically relevant. Relevant it is very relevant for the focusing and yeah all of that but it's going to because of the trajectory it's gonna hit the back of your eye opposite and also top bottom but that part won't matter for our purposes ah ah okay so no it is about the part of the back

0:22:16 Thomas: My question on this left, right thing. Let's say I look to my left and I don't know if this will matter. It might, if I look to my left without moving my head and now those photons are kind of straight on, does that change where it's going? Versus if I turn my head to where now they're straight on kind of in the same way, does that change where it's going or like, how does that, Is it just about the, because you said it's not the area of your eye. It's about the left of the world and the right of the world or. Okay.

0:22:46 Jenessa: Of your eyes it's about the retina yeah yeah yeah so if you turn your eyes

0:22:47 Thomas: Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. That makes sense.

0:22:51 Jenessa: It will turn the thing. So what it really is, is it's a tract where you've got those receptors in the back of your retina and the axons coming off of those. If they are representing the left side of your eye, which is picking up the right side of the world, they will go over to the left hemisphere, which means if it's the left eye, left side of that eye, it'll just go straight back to stay on the left hemisphere. The right side of the left eye picks up the left side of your visual field. And now it has to cross over to go to the right hemisphere because the right hemisphere is going to process the left visual field, so half of your eye has to across hemispheres rather than one eye goes to one hemisphere and the other eye goes to the other hemisphere.

0:23:41 Thomas: Interesting. Okay.

0:23:50 Jenessa: Essentially, what it means is if I tell you look straight ahead and I flash something in your peripheral visual field, I can control that I made sure it went to the opposite hemisphere, the visual presentation. If it was right in front of you, it kind of hits both visual fields, both eyes, left and and right, center, and it goes to both visual hemispheres. So that wouldn't work so much. But if I have you fixate in the center, I can present it on the right. It'll hit the left side of both eyes and it'll go to the left hemisphere representing this thing that happened in your right visual field to the right of your body. So eyes are weird. That crossing where we had basic sensory information is going to get sent it has not yet gotten processed in the cortex and become conscious information it's just information getting zapped in basic ones and zeros it's all ones and zeroes but like basic on off light hit me oh my god that crosses at the optic chiasm a different place in the brain. If I were to damage that, stuff from your left eye could never make it to the right hemisphere, and stuff from you your right eye could not make it to the left hemisphere. We'd never get there in the first place. If we cut the corpus callosum, stuff that did now get processed in your left hemisphere, if you wanted to make a decision about it and send that to the right hemisphere, it wouldn't get over there. So it's a different thing. The corpus callosum is after we've done some information processing of basic stuff, we want the two hemispheres to talk to each other. Other areas that cross lower in the brain are usually sending different really basic stuff that hasn't even been processed yet. Does that make sense? Sure. Okay. So it actually works out that those are the things you kind of

0:26:01 Thomas: Kind of. Yeah. I think so. Well enough to go for it. I think. Okay.

0:26:11 Jenessa: Need to have set up here, right? My right hand is controlled by my left hemisphere. My left hand is controlled by me right hemisphere. Things that I see in my right peripheral vision will be processed in my left visual cortex. Things that appear in my visual field, left peripheral vision, will get processed in my right visual cortex. If it was dead center, it would hit both. Normally, something appears in my left peripheral vision. It goes to my right visual cortex. I think about it. I figure out what it was. And then I want to tell you about it in the vast majority of people. Your language centers are on the left side of your brain.

0:26:56 Jenessa: So if I want to tell you about it, I have to send the information from my right hemisphere, where I processed what it was, over to my left hemisphere, where my language centers are. And then I can say, hey, Thomas, I think I just saw whatever go flying by. Take a look. What do you think? Did you see it too? You know, whatever.

0:27:17 Thomas: That's exactly how you talk.

0:27:19 Jenessa: I love when I can't even act well enough to play myself. What the?

0:27:26 Thomas: Yeah interesting yeah so it's pretty fast but detectable yeah okay interesting

0:27:26 Jenessa: God. Okay, if it was in my right visual field, it would have gotten processed in my left visual cortex, and it would not have to cross the corpus callosum. If I wanted to tell you what I saw, it was just within one hemisphere. It could go straight from the visual area to the language area, and I could talk about it. Normally, like, this doesn't really matter. You can do reaction time tests to show I'm a little quicker on a language versus a not language test where I have to linguistically identify what this object was, I will be ever so slightly quicker to tell you what it was if it was in the right peripheral vision than the left because I didn't have to cross hemispheres. It's just like physically, literally less distance to send the signal. We're still talking about electricity. Like we're practically, yeah, yeah going down the axon is electricity it's like the speed of light or whatever but you hit synapses and you have to send a little chemical across the synapse and that takes time and blah blah the difference is not meaningful for your day-to-day life but it's technically measurable yes interestingly detectable it's very detectable if your corpus callosum is damaged so in split brain experiments well they're not experiments they're experiments that happen yeah oh god

0:28:55 Thomas: Yeah so we split a guy's brain after we put stilts on him and he didn't know what the fuck was happening it was fun listen to opening arguments eventually or some point when that's out for um how ethical it is to just uh test humans like that do whatever you want to them don't ask

0:29:13 Jenessa: Oh god no oh yeah he'd be like go for it why not just do it in a foreign country where they

0:29:15 Thomas: Rfk jr just uh you know yeah ethics geez yeah yeah yeah not great oh god I remember hearing

0:29:23 Jenessa: Can't complain we have a long history in psych of for good or for ill I suppose when people have intractable epilepsy so like we are trying everything we cannot get these seizures under control. That can be dangerous depending on the severity. In an absolute worst case scenario, you can identify the part of the brain that is causing the seizures and take it out. And it does work. The problem is you don't actually only use 10% of your brain. You use the whole thing. So it turns out when you take any little piece of it out, you lose something, thing, especially if you're a grown adult. So if you'RE lucky, it's just like some little spot that hopefully you won't miss it too much. Famously, H.M. is a case study of a man where they were like, oh, it'S coming from the hippocampus on both sides. We'LL just take that out. It turns out that's like one of the most important memory structures. And he just had no formation of new long-term memory for the rest of his life he's 50 First Dates guy he just every two minutes or so he's like hey how are you introduce myself yeah yeah yeah so that's that's a no probably most

0:30:36 Thomas: About again, we kind of touched on it in another episode where it's like philosophy class like there's so much of this in philosophy class it's really interesting but that is a bummer that one's That one's a bummer. Yeah.

0:30:50 Jenessa: People don't want to sign up for that as like a life worth going for I mean let's find other ways to deal with the seizure you know so let's say you're having grand mal seizures your whole brain brain gets involved and we can identify that it starts in one hemisphere and then crosses the corpus callosum and goes to the other. One hemisphere is the problem. Yeah. Yeah, usually for most people with epilepsy, there's like a spot in the brain that's the problem, there is some group of neurons that are engaging in this weird like, this is getting a little outside my area of expertise, but like neurons aren't supposed to fire in this like synchronized,

0:30:57 Thomas: Wait, seizures do that? They like cross a hemisphere? Oh, wow. Hmm. Sure. Mm-hmm.

0:31:32 Jenessa: Repetitive pattern, not for very long. You know, if I flash a light at you at a certain frequency, your visual cortex will flash at that frequency. Steady state, visual evoked potentials. Yeah, exactly. Because in some people, the fact that your neurons are flashing at that frequency could start a seizure. In theory, you know, your brain is supposed to like, cool it. And that's why you have like random firing as your baseline.

0:31:36 Thomas: That's why they got to warn you on the rides and the movies and the, yep. Yeah. So interesting.

0:32:01 Jenessa: Line yeah so like if you have a part of your brain that's malfunctioning and just this little spot starts to fire in synchrony and because it's firing non-randomly the other areas go oh information interesting and so they start doing it too and next thing you know everybody's doing it

0:32:19 Thomas: Next thing you know, they're all saying six, seven, six, seven in unison and then your brain is rotten. Literal brain rot. Wow.

0:32:22 Jenessa: And your whole brain is firing at once, and that's a seizure. Jesus. Yeah, pretty much.

0:32:34 Jenessa: Yeah, basically. Grand mal seizure is when your whole brain does it, and it's not good for you. I mean, really, the main risk with a seizure is falling and hitting your head, is my understanding. Like, if you just have, like, a seizure once, and you happen to have been laying down, it's really more the question is, why did you have a seizure but it's like it's not good for your brain to be doing that there must

0:32:54 Thomas: Yeah. Again, maybe outside the area, but like, does it necessarily damage your brain to go through that? Or you're saying maybe not necessarily. Yeah. Yeah, just at all times in any situation and never drive or do anything

0:33:05 Jenessa: Be a thing where if it just keeps happening that that's not Good because they seem to engage in some pretty extreme intervention to stop that whereas in my head I'd be like I don't know just keep a pillow right isn't that fine and it must not be fine uh yeah yeah it is really rough

0:33:21 Thomas: Important. Yeah no, it's so even if it was just that, that's rough. But I'm just curious medically if it like, if it's like somehow zapping your brain or it's breaking connections or doing anything like that. Yeah all right, well interesting topic for another show. Yeah oh yeah, I'll probably

0:33:26 Jenessa: I mean it must on some level not be good yeah somebody who has expertise in this will know far better than me what the like actual problem is I'm sure we will loss of consciousness is

0:33:44 Thomas: I love it. Please write in. Dang. Okay. Cool. Wow. Yeah. Huh. Like if you tell them draw anything. Huh? Wow. What the hell? But in order to draw something, you don't have to process it in a conscious way. That's also weird. Oh, so. Oh gotcha.

0:33:48 Jenessa: Really not good but I would bet it's also not great for you you probably would get excitotoxicity after a while which is exactly what it sounds like excitatory too much excitation toxicity if your neurons just firing like crazy you could literally kill a neuron so probably that is my bet. So the reason I say it must be pretty bad is because we engage in some pretty extreme interventions even to this day. My understanding is we would avoid this at all costs, last resort. I mean, all brain surgery is the last resort, right? In the past, it may have been more common before we knew what this was doing. If the seizure is originating in one hemisphere and when it crosses to the other it makes your whole brain seize which is a grand mal seizure which is not good we could at least restrict it to one hemisphere if we just cut that corpus callosum so the signal can't get from one hemisphere to the another hemisphere because that's the highway right um and it works it isolates the seizure so that's great and the thing is for the most part then the person just kind of seems to go about their day like nothing changed, which seems impossible because that's a giant structure in your brain. It can't not matter until we get them in the lab, and then you can really tell. So what happens is, think back to our examples with the visuals, right? Anterior commissure is still present. It's a separate structure. So visual information from the different eyes can still get to both hemispheres, and that means we can still have something presented in my right peripheral vision goes to my left visual cortex, left peripheral vision goes to my right visual cortex and I start processing it. My language centers are most likely on the left side of my brain. If something was in my right visual field, so I have the participant look straight ahead and I flash up a bunch of grapes, a picture. And I say, what'd you see? They say a bunch of grapes. Fine. Flash something up in the left visual field. It goes to their right visual cortex. You say to them, what did you see they say? Nothing. Don't know what you're talking about. You put a pen or something in their left hand and say, just draw, just draw something. They'll draw it. Usually you say close your eyes because if they're looking at it, they're going to mess with themselves. Just close your your eyes and just draw what you feel. They'll draw it. So it was in the left visual field. It went to the right visual cortex. The information has been processed. It can't cross the corpus callosum. So the talky parts of the brain don't know. So when you say, what was it? I don't know is the correct answer as far as that part of the brain is concerned. The left hand is controlled by the right hemisphere and the right hemisphere knows. It can't talk, but it can draw with the left hand, so you draw it." So this is the thing. I would argue, who says it's not conscious just because you can't say it? The left side does the talkies, but the right side can be conscious without talking, right? Why not?

0:37:29 Thomas: But now I want to know if talking necessarily, wait, how could you be conscious of something that you can't possibly say? Well, then you'd argue what's the consciousness? I guess like, so then two consciousnesses is.

0:37:41 Jenessa: What if, perhaps, there's just two people in that head now and one of them controls the mouth? It's almost like you already are a hive mind. You just are enough neurons got together that

0:37:54 Thomas: Yeah. Say instead of one brain, we make it a little more graspable and we've got two guys. One guy can see the thing and can't talk, but can just control your hand and the other guy can't see it. And so it was like, there's nothing there. I don't know what you're talking about. Even though the hand is being controlled to draw the thing because the guy's like, he can't actually say it, but he can draw it. I still would argue that the guy is not conscious of it. Like the other guys and conscious of

0:38:01 Jenessa: A consciousness popped up. Yeah, exactly. The left hemisphere that talks, it's not that it's

0:38:30 Thomas: So to your point, I think I'm agreeing. It's like two guys now. Yeah, right. Right. But I think crucially, that does mean the person who can talk, whatever is the entity that can talk isn't conscious of it. And I think it's I know a lot of stuff happens. I don't know if it's the right language, but kind of beneath our consciousness, like we obviously we process tons of stuff, but we can't really articulate.

0:38:38 Jenessa: Unconsciously aware. It correctly told you it does not know because it doesn't have the information. The right hemisphere, in your example, where it's a different person controlling your hand, they have the information and they are a human who's consciously aware. They just happen happen to be a person who doesn't talk anymore right sure absolutely well that would almost

0:39:13 Thomas: I'm just wondering if necessarily speaking, it kind of goes back to another thing we talked about with the like, if you hallucinate a voice, then necessarily you can't, you know, you're kind of losing it kind of thing. Like if you truly, whatever is your language center doesn't have access to information, I would argue you don't have access to that information consciously. Well, that's getting into like the philosophy of it, of the you.

0:39:33 Jenessa: Argue that now you used to be both hemispheres and now kind of what you're saying is you are the left hemisphere and the right hemisphere is a stranger the whoever it is who's not, they are

0:39:44 Thomas: I don't know about the you, but like, I suppose without making a firm claim as to which one it is or something, the whoever it is who's doing the the talking is not conscious of it is what I'm saying. That's what I mean. They aren't conscious of whatever the information is. So they don't know. It's the same. I'm the same thing. Yeah.

0:39:56 Jenessa: Consciously correctly aware that they don't know they're also not unconsciously they have no access access to it, period. So they're not consciously aware. They're not unconsciously. They got nothing. Yeah. I think the reason I make the distinction is because the temptation a lot of

0:40:08 Thomas: Yeah. No, I know. Yeah, I agree. I think we're agreeing. I mean, I'm just putting it in maybe different terms that are not quite maybe right or something. I don't know. So I think

0:40:22 Jenessa: People will have is like, ah, so you're not aware. You're not consciously aware of it, but unconsciously still have it. And it's like, no, the left hemisphere does not have it, they have no access to It whatsoever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Yeah so just

0:40:35 Thomas: We actually are saying the same because I said they are not conscious of it. I didn't say they have it in their subconscious. I said, they're not conscious of it as in like, as I'm not conscious of something over where you are right now. Like I'm, I I'm just not conscious of it. So I think, I think we were agreeing. Okay. All on the same page.

0:40:50 Jenessa: Making sure to make that distinction because what I often see people jump straight to is we kind of have a built-in assumption that like language is consciousness and that can often come with some really icky things of like, oh, so people who don't talk aren't conscious. That's not great. But I often See students when we do this sort of jump to like, Oh, so now just I'm in the left hemisphere. And I'm like, using that word I now. Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, I didn't take you

0:41:13 Thomas: Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. That part is, is I'm agnostic on that. That's a philosophy question, I think, but I, I don't mean to say that if you can't talk, you're not conscious. I don't mean that. I mean, and I specifically said like, whatever your, yeah.

0:41:25 Jenessa: You to mean that. The part of you that talks, which is the, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, no. Nobody

0:41:26 Thomas: Whatever your communication is, whatever your. Whatever it is. And that, that, yeah in some way, whatever it might be, if it's sign language, if its writing, if it's not, whatever. Whatever. I think if whatever that is, if there's something that it can't communicate. So like you can't, you literally can't say it. It would be hard for me to believe that you were somehow still consciously aware of it in some way is what I'm saying. And I think that's agreeing with what you're saying. Can't say yeah, that's all I'm trying to say. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, wow.

0:41:50 Jenessa: Would assert, it would be completely misunderstanding the neuroscience to assert that somehow the left hemisphere does have access to the information and just can't talk about it. Yeah, that's not what's happening. Correct. What is happening is that the information is in the right hemisphere and cannot get to the left. So it is completely correct to say out loud I don't know. Whereas other we can imagine there are, in fact, other disorders where you would say, I don't know, and there's something going on that is either you're not consciously aware, but then we can demonstrate unconscious awareness.

0:42:16 Thomas: Wow. Right. Yeah. Crazy. That's so cool. Yeah, yeah.

0:42:31 Jenessa: You know, the behavior shows that you have the information or language disorders where people struggle to communicate what they do, in effect, know. That's not what's happening here. It is completely correct to say, I don't know, there's nothing in there. So their left hand, controlled by the right hemisphere, will draw the object, and then you say, open your eyes, and they look at it, and you say what'd you draw? A car. Why'd you draw that? I don't know. I have no idea what just happened or why. So why does this pop into my mind? I was watching the show with my partner, and we were talking about it, so if you could somehow connect all our brains and let us directly, you know, have my neuron talk to your neuron just because their brains can talk. Why are they suddenly not individuals? Why are we jumping to that assumption? And then I looked at, do we have any neuroscience information that would help me? And I looked at this and went, oh, yeah, if you cut my corpus callosum, there's arguably two people in my head. There's just these two things that are able to act independently. It's still an unbelievable amount of neurons, even in just one hemisphere. You know, there are people who have had hemispherectomies as children, a whole hemisphere of the brain missing, and you practically wouldn't even know. They're going about their lives and they're living full lives. They're walking and talking, doing the whole thing. And so there's enough neurons in just 1 hemisphere to have a conscious human being moving about the world. Even once you've split the two of them and they can't talk to each other essentially operating independently there's enough to generate thinking of consciousness as an emergent property it's kind of like there's two people in there and if you connect them back up it's not like there're two people shaking hands and chitter-chattering I think of myself as one person if you don't think

0:44:24 Thomas: Yeah, it'd be one person. Yeah so essentially you're kind of saying that science maybe backs

0:44:27 Jenessa: Of yourself as one-person talk to your doctor like things might not be going well you know know? So the thought that came to my mind was, yeah, I kind of think if I could directly connect my brain to yours, I don't think it would be me and you, you know, neurologically handshaking. There would just be us. There would be we. There would be one bigger brain. Because that's kind of all we are to begin with, is just a pile of neurons all talking to each other. Yeah. Yeah,

0:45:01 Thomas: That part of the plot and the way they portray that. Interesting. Right yeah yeah yeah exactly

0:45:05 Jenessa: Yeah, I really think, like, I can't imagine, I already think this is very silly, but this idea that, like somehow we're going to upload our consciousness, I don't know what the hell that would mean, but if somehow you could digitally have a brain and those digital things could all talk to each other, they wouldn't be independent. I think they'd just be a giant brain. Like, yeah, how would one draw boundaries? So I think it does actually totally line up that if somehow somehow every person's brain on earth could directly talk to one another there just would be one person and it'd be really really smart or have a seizure I don't know yeah probably

0:45:46 Thomas: That kind of depends on the limits of communication in terms of whatever the medium is that's a whole kind of different part of it, which would be interesting. Yeah, that would be really interesting. I wonder if there's a way, like there's probably limits on like how well you could connect enough parts of it. But setting all that aside, I do think it fully fits with the premise of the show. And what's interesting and so tragic about it is like, well, that's not a person anymore. Like you've lost individuality. That's one of the things I find interesting about the show, and I know there's, there's also a lot of also neurodivergent kind of overlap in some of of the concepts and some of the way stuff is portrayed that's interesting, but I do find it to be like a supreme bummer, an interesting thing that it's like, I think it makes the show and the concept very interesting because I do agree with kind of your conclusion there ultimately that it becomes a different person and that person, whoever they were, that individual is lost in a way, even though you could access their memories, that's not enough to be like that person anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:45:53 Jenessa: Had diminishing returns after a while yeah hmm yeah hmm yes yes yes it's it's very eerie and And off-putting, unsettling, yeah, I mean, like, without spoiling things, you know, seeing people get merged into it, it's, it feels like loss. It's very much a loss watching that happen to someone. It's disturbing. And the reaction of, like. No, it is. It's great. And it's like, okay, pod people. Stepford Wife.

0:47:12 Thomas: Yeah, it's really interesting because the tone of the show could have really been different.

0:47:13 Jenessa: Sure it is sure it's great like. No.

0:47:21 Thomas: Like there is an element of the horror to it, but also it's not really that in a way. And it's kind of I like it. It's unique. It'S cool.

0:47:27 Jenessa: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah. Right. Right? The first episode, I think, is depending on your tolerance

0:47:29 Thomas: It's it's but take your point. And I agree that like you could go a very different way, which is an extreme horror to that, like an extreme aversion to that. And it'S kind of interesting to see it be like not quite that in the show. But that'll be spoilers for how it goes, I guess. Mm hmm.

0:47:49 Jenessa: Level, the first episode's scary. And I had to tell my mom, I was like, Mom, I need you to tough it out. I need to watch this. You're gonna hate it. Youre gonna be like, this is gross and scary. Get through it. And now all the time, she like calls me and she's like, Oh, my God, did you watch it? Oh, my God like she loves it. Because you're totally right. The tone shift where the second episode

0:48:05 Thomas: That's cool yeah wow well holy shit the time flew by I didn't realize we were already at time but

0:48:10 Jenessa: So like we are in bright, sunshiny New Mexico and the sun is shining literally and metaphorically on many things. So like it's the vibe is not horror. It is in my heart. Yeah. Yeah.

0:48:24 Thomas: It's so fun to learn about brain stuff like that really interesting stuff and uh yeah check out the show people I I I'll be honest I you know maybe I'm a harsh critic I don't really think it's an a plus I think there's a little bit missing from it but it's well it's a solid b b plus and it's that's an enjoyable show and I love uh uh what's her name I'm blanking on her name but

0:48:38 Jenessa: Oh, I think she doesn't say.

0:48:41 Thomas: I love the lead actress of course rhea rhea seahorn no is that her name rhea oh like just

0:48:46 Jenessa: I always want to say Raya, but I think it's like somehow it's one syllable or something like Ray, Ray, something like that.

0:48:52 Thomas: Just re or something. Oh, okay. Ray, maybe. I've never heard it. Honestly, I've never heard anyone say it. I just was remembering the words. Anyway, love her. She's great. And it's a good show. Yeah, for sure.

0:49:01 Jenessa: I'm like an easily pleased kind of person. Like once I like it and especially once I'm interested in a character I will overlook all flaws and faults and just be like I'm in me and my partner enjoy talking about it and that makes it enjoyable so I'm like a plus I love it I also say that about a lot of stuff people hate so I know entirely possible very weird object oh god yeah uh oh we gotta talk someday about

0:49:19 Thomas: It's definitely enjoyable. Yeah. Well, either way, thanks so much. That was a lot of fun. And thanks listeners. Make sure to check it out. Let us know what you think about the science and the philosophy there. But really interesting to learn more about the brain. That's always fun for me. It's the craziest thing. I really think there's a chance it's the most interesting object in the entire universe. There really is a chance. It is so crazy. And if it's not, I want to find that alien brain that it, you know, like the alien brain that's like, you a billion years more evolved or something. Like, I do want to take a look at that thing. Yeah. Yeah, OK. I like that. I love that kind of talk. Awesome. All right. Well,

0:49:56 Jenessa: My wild speculation that alien brains will probably be just like ours. I'm gonna tease that on you and do it someday. Yeah, good talking to you. The bug people are out of control.

0:50:07 Thomas: Well, Dr. Jenessa Seymour, thanks so much as always. And thanks for being on the various shows all the time. Always fun to learn from you.