DOD248: WTF is the Nude Lingerie Test

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad, that's my thing I know now what I can offer you that no one else can Complete and under-dependent I'm a man, I'm sensitive I need to feel loved, I need part of being a father that I enjoy

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's neither boxers nor briefs. I'm Tom Curry. I am joined, as always, by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:39 Thomas: Man. Okay. Have we had the Boxer Briefs discussion? Have we had that discussion?

0:00:45 Tom: I don't think that we have had that discussion.

0:00:46 Thomas: Oh, wow. Because that is one of the places where I have had the biggest change of mind. Wait, no. I feel like we did, no? Because this is nowhere, like literally me going from conservative to progressive was not as big a change as this change. I grew up and my whole, into my 30s probably, or like right around 30, lower 30s, where I couldn't have imagined there's any other answer besides boxer briefs ever. And then one day, yeah, except not. No.

0:01:14 Eli: That is the only answer. What's happening?

0:01:14 Tom: That is the only answer. That's the only an - What is happening right now that you're going to posit?

0:01:18 Eli: Wait, here's the only thing you're allowed to advocate for, which is I keep a dildo up my ass all the time and boxer briefs make that less comfortable. If you're about to advocate for literally any other kind of underwear, this is the episode that turns. Okay.

0:01:26 Tom: It's boxer briefs! What is - What's about to happen?

0:01:33 Thomas: Telling you, dude, it's briefs. It's brief. Yeah, it is.

0:01:35 Eli: Oh God, no, not brief.

0:01:35 Tom: What is happening? What? I can't unknow this. I cannot unknow this.

0:01:39 Eli: I was praying to the sweet Lord Jesus above that it was

0:01:40 Thomas: It is. It's the best.

0:01:43 Eli: At least boxers.

0:01:44 Thomas: No, boxers are stupid.

0:01:45 Tom: What?

0:01:46 Thomas: Boxers are like this super loose, crazy Fabric the stuff that's now boxers suck.

0:01:50 Tom: Boxers I don't understand at all. Why are you wearing underwear?

0:01:53 Eli: Just put your cock in a cage. Don't bring your underwear into it.

0:01:57 Thomas: Here's the key when we grew up in the 90s shorts They were huge you could fit a car in your shorts now the stylish shorts are really small They're really fucking small, and I don't know maybe the problem Is that you know you guys aren't packing because I can't fit everything I need to fit in these tiny fucking shorts that everybody wears now and so one day.

0:01:58 Tom: What fucking shorts are you wearing? Fucking hoochie daddies?

0:02:20 Thomas: They're tiny now Now,

0:02:22 Eli: Don't wear the shorts, you fucking beachside twink.

0:02:22 Thomas: Normal shorts are tiny now.

0:02:24 Tom: What is the inseam on your shorts or like what is the dong you're carrying that you can't like what is happening that you're poking out the bottom of your shorts in boxer briefs? Boxer briefs have some support the

0:02:33 Eli: Shorts aren't for us, Thomas.

0:02:34 Thomas: You're not poking out the bottom. They're just bunched up and fucking annoying. You need the freedom. You need to freedom.

0:02:40 Tom: Freedom of briefs briefs don't offer any

0:02:42 Thomas: And here's the thing. Boxer briefs, the little cutlets at the bottom of the briefs. They're all they've done is added a modesty bit of fabric because straight dudes are afraid of being gay. That's all the boxer brief is. They added a bit of modesty fabric so that you won't feel like you're going to get made of fun of for being gay, that's all that is.

0:03:00 Eli: So I won't feel like a fucking deep sea creature has my gonk in its mouth all day long. So that every time I drop my trousers, it's not a chemical attack on the Syrian people.

0:03:05 Tom: Freedom what

0:03:13 Thomas: The boxer brief is the same part, except they just added the cutlets on the bottom. That's all.

0:03:18 Eli: The cutlets is everything. The cutelets gives the air that you so desperately need.

0:03:23 Tom: All right I am fully converted not just to boxer briefs but to the boxer briefς that have like a separation that like separate your junk from your legs so that you're not walking around chafing all the time that's the the only way to go

0:03:37 Eli: I am takeless I am take I was like we're gonna spend four seconds on this because I'm gonna say yeah this is the whole

0:03:43 Tom: This is the whole show this is the entire show now it's all I care

0:03:45 Eli: Show whatever else we had to talk about is gone we were gonna spend 4 seconds I was gonna say anybody who's into briefs they just haven't experienced boxer briefs the idea I mean look I know the tragedy that Thomas went through which is he saw some fucking power bottom on Venice Beach with shorts just under his fucking in labia majora and Thomas was like well I guess that's what all the kids are wearing today let me slip into these extra smalls huh that's not working for me why don't I put my dick in a fucking arm lock for the rest of its life I'll put my Dick in an arm bar forever so that I can wear the shirts zoomers are

0:04:16 Tom: About how do you have three kids and you're wearing briefs too like that's shocking as

0:04:23 Eli: Wearing this is why Remy cries so much you squeezed him for so much of his fucking leg. Yeah, exactly.

0:04:25 Thomas: They're not really this.

0:04:26 Tom: Well right he got the fucking he got the hotted up sperms man he got those fucking toasted up

0:04:32 Eli: You spend this negative seven years of your life smushed against the next one.

0:04:32 Thomas: And I live where it's actually hot, too.

0:04:38 Thomas: Here's what you're not realizing. The boxer breeze are extra fucking clothing. So if there's the warmth of I get it, you're thinking like, oh, there's not enough airflow. Sure. That's also like you're wearing a sweater on your foot. It's long sleeves for short sleeves You know what's cooler short sleeves a tank top the briefs are a tanktop The boxer briefs our long sleeve shirt, which is better in the California

0:04:53 Tom: sperMs

0:04:55 Eli: I have literally never in my life been like, oh man, this little bit of leg.

0:05:01 Tom: Briefs are the wife beaters of underwear though like you look classless I take my clothes off and I'm already like fuck really that's me you know if I put myself in briefs I'd be like oh there's no way I'd I'd like yeah I wouldn't fuck me either it's fine like I'll just go live outside it's

0:05:04 Thomas: No, they make nice ones now. Oh, I very much wouldn't fuck me. No, that's not I fully agree with you there Now that I think about it, it is horrifying when I take my clothes off. That's a good point.

0:05:28 Tom: Okay so eli you're on team separation like I've tried

0:05:28 Eli: The notion that you'd be like, Ooh, I'm so much more comfy without this inch and a half of short around my thigh.

0:05:39 Thomas: It looks like three inches

0:05:39 Eli: I'm sure. I sure am glad that I've I've packed my junk into an Auschwitz train car so that I can fuck it.

0:05:44 Thomas: It's the same the part where your penis and balls are is the same for briefs as it is for boxer briefs Yes, boxer brief's are just briefs that you add the little fucking cutlets to the bottom I could get some paper newspaper. I could cut it. I can put that on Man

0:05:49 Eli: It's not the same. I don't know what to fuck your job. I'm about to drop my trousers and get on FaceTime to show you.

0:05:57 Eli: I'm sending a picture of my underwear to the group chat and you can't cancel me. You can't because this is important for the law.

0:06:09 Tom: Out oh my god that's fucking perfect

0:06:10 Thomas: That's funny that's so funny oh that's so funny made the change never look back it's so much more

0:06:13 Eli: What are you guys going to podcast about now? I think I'm going to start. You ever get convinced to wear a thong?

0:06:15 Tom: That's it no that's it I don't care about anything else ever again ever again nobody wants to see me in a thong what do you mean convinced to wear a thog

0:06:28 Eli: I had a girlfriend who was really into me wearing thongs.

0:06:31 Thomas: Comfy really yeah was it just for like a bit

0:06:31 Tom: Was she blind

0:06:32 Eli: I was hot once I was hot multiple decades ago and she was she was like dude you should wear thongs and I was like I mean fuck you're the vote that matters we're doing electoral college and you're

0:06:43 Thomas: Wow okay well now we need to see

0:06:45 Tom: Or wait mississippi matters the famed swing state of mississippi oh my god there you go

0:06:47 Eli: Mississippi

0:06:48 Thomas: This no yeah yeah you're thinking Pennsylvania I think is the one you want to

0:06:52 Eli: Yeah you're pennsylvania exactly you're pennsylvania but yeah no I I hated that shit so much it's the worst was it controversial for the girls in your schools to be allowed to wear thong that was a huge thing like the all

0:06:58 Thomas: Get wow Pixar didn't happen whoa what I'm sorry yeah what the fuck are you talking about there is no No, no one was allowed to check what the girls were wearing. That's okay.

0:07:05 Tom: Wait what who's checking no I don't remember this at all how would anyone know what the girls were wearing

0:07:15 Eli: The girls were wearing because this is the 90s right and so So they would wear the low.

0:07:19 Thomas: No, that's not it. You're at a pervert something. That's impossible.

0:07:22 Tom: No I think I know what he's talking about where the thong can't peek out over the clothes.

0:07:23 Eli: Maybe I was at a pervert high school. Yes. The thong couldn't peek out over the clothes and

0:07:27 Thomas: Oh, okay. Well, that may be different.

0:07:29 Eli: The girls who were allowed to wear thong underwear versus the girls Who were not allowed to wear thung underwear. It was a huge deal. Like it was all the gospel was like by their parents. Yeah.

0:07:37 Thomas: Oh, you meant by their parents. Jesus Christ. Yeah.

0:07:40 Tom: I mean like our school dress code would not have allowed underwear to poke out over your clothes. Like you would definitely get in trouble. But like in the nineties when I went to high school, like, yeah, you couldn't wear like midriff or cutoff shorts. Couldn't wear cutoff shirts. Your shorts couldn't be shorter than the tip of your fingertip. Definitely no like midrift bearing clothes that was out like back in the nineties. Yeah and you certainly couldn't like have your underwear visible. That would be, yeah those are all

0:07:58 Eli: Oh, that was huge. I remember that. Hey, that's a fucking insane part of our childhood that I hope is over.

0:08:06 Thomas: I really hope it's over.

0:08:06 Tom: Rules that I do a hundred percent remember so yeah

0:08:09 Thomas: The first moment anyone tries to slut shame Phoebe or something, I'm going to do a murder. I can't wait. I can't wait to do a murder over that. Like if there's a dress code thing and it's going to be, I'm going to turn in to a fucking Tumblr feminist or something. And I can't wait because it's the correct view. Yeah, I will. The fact that all we do is police girls' clothing and not dudes at all is totally true. It's the Correct Take. I can't wait.

0:08:25 Eli: You just show up with an undercut somehow when the opposite is what needs to happen, right? If there was a shower monitor at the door of every middle school who was just like, mm -mm, back home you go, soap and water, get out of here, society would be a better place.

0:08:47 Tom: Okay wait a minute I want to ask about that question because the kids are having

0:08:49 Thomas: I would have never been allowed to wear briefs. No, I'm just kidding.

0:08:52 Tom: When you guys were in middle school and high school were you required to take a shower in gym and did somebody make sure that you did because we absolutely were and somebody absolutely made sure that

0:08:58 Thomas: No. Holy shit. Some pervert was like the shower inspector?

0:09:03 Eli: 100%. Yep, there was this shower monitor. I, and I will remind our audience, I had a note that I was susceptible to colds, so I did not have to swim.

0:09:08 Thomas: No. Of course you did. Oh, my fucking God. Oh, to swim?

0:09:14 Tom: Susceptible to colds.

0:09:15 Eli: Did I not tell you guys this? I feel like I've said this on air before.

0:09:17 Tom: I didn't know why.

0:09:20 Thomas: Okay, that's fucking hilarious.

0:09:20 Tom: Susceptible to cold. I'm sorry. If Eli gets, that's fucking amazing.

0:09:23 Thomas: That's so Eli.

0:09:24 Eli: And here's the thing. Mr. Springer, who was the gym teacher for our high school, head of the gym program, he was the swim coach he was incredibly good friends with my dad and so he met me early on and he knew my dad like knew my Dad's sports career a little bit met me earlier on and he was like who did your mom fuck what the fuck is this singing marshmallow of a child doing in my room and the stillness on his face when I brought him that note and he was like yup sure I guess and I just

0:09:48 Thomas: You presented a note? Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, oh my God. That

0:09:58 Eli: Fucking all right I'll go hang out in the drama hallway if you need me the fucking perfect stillness that overcame you ever seen that I forget what the movie is I think it's born on fourth of july but I might be wrong the one where the guy goes to the vietnam memorial wall and he realizes his friend's name isn't there that's what it was like that was the experience of getting my eli is susceptible to colds no

0:10:16 Thomas: Is wow. Oh, geez.

0:10:23 Tom: I remember when I was in middle school or junior high, junior high and high school, we were required to take a shower after gym class it was a thing and it was let me just say it was the fucking worst a junior high is the worst experience people get to have like that's it junior high ist just terrible it's horrible but like also not everybody in junior high has gone through puberty at the same base

0:10:39 Thomas: Yeah well period. Yeah, for sure. Oh, junior high. Oh, okay. So I didn't have to do this until high school. Yeah, junior higher. That would be agony. That'd be fucking agony. Yeah.

0:10:46 Eli: It's the best yes

0:10:50 Tom: Junior high you've got like you've the kid who's like six foot six he's got a fucking hairy chest his fucking dongs down to his

0:10:55 Thomas: 100%. This is the weirdest thing.

0:10:57 Tom: Knee and then you've got other kids who are like their voice hasn't

0:11:00 Eli: You just have a second belly button and where your dick is and you have no idea why it doesn't look like that guys yeah

0:11:02 Tom: Cracked it's the worst it's like it is horrible like oh my god and they fucking they absolutely made sure that you shot you had to do it you got points taken off you got in trouble like you got sent home you got detentions whatever it was yeah yeah it was a whole thing they don't do that shit anymore

0:11:15 Thomas: So true. What? That's crazy. Even in high school, I never had. I mean, they're. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because that would imply, hey, you, you're in charge of watching, making sure the children get naked. That's the. Okay, no.

0:11:30 Eli: Who do you think the first person to break that trial was do you think there was just one sane teacher who they were like so yeah you're gonna want to tell the kids to take a shower just peek your head and make sure they're all showering and the guy was like oh I'm not gonna do that and he was like best part of the job I don't understand what you're talking about I'm retiring next week I don't know what did you get into the game for did you not stud we did that unit in college I did I did six years at Memorial Medical Hospital to learn how to watch a child take a shower.

0:12:03 Tom: don'T do that though has to feel kind of crazy because like you have to go to school and go to college to be like more jumping jacks I'm gonna play volleyball none of you guys are gonna care and the points don't matter and eli's gonna bring in a note that says he doesn't value this fuck okay uh

0:12:08 Thomas: Man did wait did we do the break the only thing worse than watching children

0:12:18 Eli: Susceptible of cold. Nope. No, we didn't. But guys, you know, the only thing worse than how it must have felt to read my note where I said I was susceptible to colds and therefore didn't have to swim or shower. It's the auto -ants. The taking a shower of your podcasting experience. You should do it more often than you need to. It's probably good for you. But boy who has the time over at patreon.com/dear old dads you can never shower again we can't smell you on patreon nobody can smell you on patreon I mean some patreons will smell you but not ours you know what there's

0:12:18 Tom: This is my whole life there's

0:12:52 Thomas: There's a goal yeah

0:12:52 Eli: A number I'll say this there's a number there's a number where we will smell you but it's not oh

0:12:53 Tom: A number

0:12:56 Thomas: Why did they get rid of the patreon goals so fucking stupid

0:12:59 Eli: Because they're trying to get us all to become monthly accounts and the patreon goals nobody was hitting them where there were three podcasts Podcasts hitting their patreon goals and we were three of them

0:13:03 Thomas: So dumb you could still have a goal of monthly what was it doing what what what was the what was the overhead on maintaining the ability for us to type some text into a fucking box back in the the comedy shoeshine days we had a really funny page of a bunch of fake goals that I really

0:13:16 Eli: That's my question is what did they yes, of course, it's a great time Yes

0:13:23 Thomas: Miss it was fucking hilarious one of them was like we're gonna pay off our columbia house debt that's fun fuck patreon

0:13:33 Eli: Anyways patreon.com/ dear old dads. Give us your money there Because it's the only way you can do it.

0:13:35 Thomas: It's the only way we can make a living please

0:13:46 Ad: [Ad break 1 — ad music]

0:13:48 Tom: So eli you put this in our show notes to chit chat about I think you found, where did you find this, by the way? Where did this come from? What's the origination?

0:13:54 Eli: So this came to me via the deep web I got this on the darknet. I was I was pirating I was torrenting I was on Anna's archive where I was downloading the copy of all of Spotify. I was at Andrew Tate's great.

0:13:59 Thomas: No kidding

0:14:01 Tom: Let's do a different episode. Let's Do a Different Episode. We should do a Different episode. It's not the question I meant to ask at all.

0:14:09 Eli: Hey, wait, real quick, guys. Do you know about Andrew Tait getting punched in the face?

0:14:12 Thomas: The fight yes yes

0:14:14 Tom: Wait, what? You can see him get punched in the face? Oh, I want to see him get punched. Punch in the Face.

0:14:16 Thomas: And try to suck a guy's dick

0:14:17 Eli: Yeah. Handpicked the worst boxer in boxing to fight. And he lost so much. It's the best. Yeah.

0:14:25 Tom: Oh, I gotta watch this.

0:14:24 Thomas: He lost so much that he tried to suck the guy's dick several times he elied it he did what eli would do in a boxing match

0:14:29 Tom: Wait, what?!

0:14:32 Eli: He's trying to do a clinch on his knees. It's pretty fantastic. He

0:14:37 Tom: Can't wait to watch this!

0:14:37 Eli: Fucking rules. Anyways, that's great, you should check that out. Andrew Tate got punched in the face a whole bunch of times and you can watch it on video for free. It's free on the internet.

0:14:47 Tom: That's all that matters right now.

0:14:49 Eli: So this comes to us from J. Sinilic on X. This person is an erotica author and they also write essays on their, uh, they have a fiction on their website. Memoirs of an evil vizier. Yup.

0:15:01 Tom: Gross.

0:15:07 Thomas: Okay cool so you're gonna hear me be super confused about the topic of today's show but it's not because the normal way where I didn't know what it was I literally consumed this piece of whatever thing and I'm so confused by it I've been waiting for eli to explain to me what the the fuck is happening I can't

0:15:08 Tom: What the fuck?

0:15:14 Eli: Do the homework. Work okay so this person they're like a internet misogynist who thinks they can write and so they wrote a blog that went a little bit viral the blog is called the illusion of dominance why the red pill is wrong and you might

0:15:32 Thomas: Wait okay oh okay they hooked people in with it

0:15:42 Eli: Think oh that's like an anti right an anti-seduction no no let me let me be before we get into the uh the meat of the thing I'll read you the intro to this blog the red pill is a loose body of seduction instructions for men and supporting analysis of female male sexual psychology. It contains some truths and some falsehoods, and this brief essay won't go over each of these point by point. Instead, I'll explain something very fundamental it gets wrong. So fundamental, in fact, that you'll discover the red pill is supporting the very system young men believe it overturns. It promises to empower men to get what they want. Instead it it makes them into submissive slaves of women.

0:16:26 Eli: In explaining why this is the case, I'll provide an analysis of male sexual psychology and the process of courtship that will be useful to men and women alike, even after the red pill fad is forgotten.

0:16:35 Thomas: Jesus you're not lying this guy does think he can

0:16:42 Tom: You know, I don't think I read in there What are his technical and educational credentials that he's coming at this from, Eli Bosnick? I'm just curious.

0:16:49 Eli: Yeah, no, he doesn't give us the byline.

0:16:49 Tom: Is he what? What's the job?

0:16:53 Eli: One last little bit here before we get to the craziness. Warning, the analysis ahead is not for the faint of heart. This isn't the politically correct refutation of the red pill you're expecting. Quite the contrary.

0:16:59 Thomas: Write this isn't your grandmother's analysis

0:17:10 Tom: Wait

0:17:10 Eli: Children and sensitive souls should turn back now.

0:17:10 Thomas: What is it vincent price all of a sudden please

0:17:16 Eli: Yeah, look, I could read this entire blog. I'll just tell you the sections that we miss. Section one, most women want to be sexually dominated. We're going to skip that one. I know, it's heartbreaking. Section two, men don't actually want to dominate you. Sorry. We're gonna skip that. That one. Moving on. Section three, the red pill. Prescription is a fraud true but not the way he says it yeah this is for men and women it's for everybody who wants the truth of this blogger I

0:17:37 Tom: A minute. Can we go back to section two? This book is for men, right? Men to read.

0:17:45 Tom: I feel like this book is für men. And that title was Men Don't Want to Sexually Dominate You.

0:17:51 Eli: Mean look if you insist I will read section two men don't actually want to dominate

0:17:55 Tom: Because I feel the you is the reader. And that's a dude.

0:17:58 Thomas: Yeah who's me

0:17:57 Eli: You sorry yeah you just you just stop me if you have any commentary along this journey this area journey to understand why this point about desire is so so crucial, we need to turn the mirror back on men. Men are little inclined to self -reflection, and women, too, understand male sexual psychology much less than they believe, because the temptation to project their fantasies of men onto real ones thoroughly tramples their intuition for character.

0:18:28 Eli: Women become so enamored with erotic dreams of dominant heroes that they fail to notice actual men don't want to dominate them. My assertion that men don t want to dominate them even seems unbelievable to women on first blush and offensive on second.

0:18:28 Thomas: What the

0:18:46 Eli: Bizarrely, a lack of introspection leads men to accept women s fantasy projection of male psychology as if it were or should be reality, when it s very far from it. The result is that everyone Everyone thinks that they understand male sexual psychology, but they don't.

0:18:46 Thomas: Fuck this

0:18:46 Tom: Right offensive what

0:19:04 Eli: They are, they are badly wrong.

0:19:04 Tom: But I do oh my god oh my God this is mmm okay Oh

0:19:03 Thomas: Is nothing okay okay and you're saying more than us have read whatever this is damn

0:19:15 Eli: So many more than us. Okay. Red Pill account of male behavior is incoherent. Obviously not for the reasons that he thinks. I should also point out that throughout the article, he has a bunch of like classical paintings of naked women. So it's, and he's also done it in this weird, like Gothic font. I highly recommend checking it out. And then when you get like two -thirds of the pages down so it's like all these classic renaissance pages and then there's this gentlemen I'm just going to drop this into our chat if you can describe what about three quarters down he provides us artistically it's

0:19:26 Thomas: Oh jesus christ oh uh ai slop of yeah yeah

0:19:49 Tom: What the shit yeah this is just a I fucking sure

0:19:51 Eli: An ai slop bride with giant bazoingas in like a mini skirt bridal dress being chased by zombies and again I cannot not emphasize this is like right after fucking rodan's the lady of the lake it's the fucking best okay we need a genuine revival of masculine virtue you see that you're not so different after all tom women are quietly hooked on violent

0:19:56 Thomas: With zombies going after her okay yeah

0:20:16 Tom: I don't think that's what I said ever

0:20:19 Thomas: What no

0:20:19 Eli: Pornography once again agreeing with tom

0:20:21 Tom: Mmm that is what no

0:20:21 Thomas: They're watching two hockey players fuck each other no did that not resonate at their Have you heard about this, Tom? They're watching two hockey players fuck each other.

0:20:29 Tom: No what heated

0:20:28 Eli: Oh he did there hey I'll tell you there's no fucking shot that tom is aware of heated rivalry and if you if you tell him about it he will run away it's

0:20:35 Thomas: Oh, really? Okay. Really? Oh.

0:20:39 Tom: Rivalry I don' know what that is

0:20:43 Eli: A gay hockey erotic movie

0:20:46 Thomas: For some reason, and this is true, it's not the only one. There's like a big thing of gay hockey erotica that is appealing to mainstream. Obviously, people like me don't give a shit. The people who are into the hockey don't care, but women do. For some reason women are really into specifically gay hockey erotica I don't know what it is it's very weird but uh it's all the rage the yeah but specifically hockey

0:21:03 Eli: I feel like you would be a fan oh

0:21:12 Tom: A lot of dudes like watching lesbians like you know whatever specifically hockey all

0:21:16 Thomas: So like if we it'd be funny if it was like dudes were into a specific like sport field

0:21:21 Eli: Like cheerleaders I would be so psyched if my hobby was the focus of a bunch of women's sexual fantasy like if they just couldn't get enough magician erotica I wouldbe so fucking psyched and be like I'm a magician

0:21:22 Tom: Right it is very hyper

0:21:28 Thomas: Hockey good point I gotta find a way wait, make this work.

0:21:34 Tom: Specific magician erotica do those words exist next to each other

0:21:37 Thomas: No, they don't.

0:21:39 Eli: You read it because because you want to know what girls like, so you go read it, and then you're like, oh, that's actually not how that card trick works. Stupid. Wrong. Whoever wrote that should have called me. I would have helped you with your magician gay erotica.

0:21:45 Thomas: They don't, yeah, yeah.

0:21:45 Tom: Anywhere pick a dong any dong is this your dog

0:22:02 Ad: [Ad break 2 — ad music]

0:22:04 Eli: So we've skipped quite a few chapters in the interest of time. I'm sorry, podcast listener. Maybe, perhaps, for a Christmas bonus, we will read you the entirety of this blog. But, for today, we're just going to be focusing on the part that went viral. Roll. Chapter 11, The Beige Lingerie Test.

0:22:22 Tom: So I had no idea until you just said it right now that this is a chapter this is the introduction to a

0:22:26 Thomas: Yeah, I didn't know either.

0:22:27 Eli: This is merely chapter 11, Tom. Perhaps it seems so ridiculous to us because we have not consumed the entire argument of its author.

0:22:29 Tom: Chapter holy yeah I'm sure that's the problem jesus

0:22:37 Thomas: What?

0:22:38 Eli: Perhaps we fear his razor-hot barbs of logic. Chapter11, The beige lingerie test. Want to know whether your girlfriend friend or wife is aggressively indifferent, tell her you've always found nude lingerie unattractive and you'd appreciate it if she'd stop wearing it entirely. For the purpose of this test, it doesn't matter if you actually care. Hey, can I just make a little pact right now? Let's all put our hands in the center.

0:22:42 Tom: Christ la jish no

0:23:08 Eli: Let's All Go Tell Our Wives That We Found Nude Lingerie Unattractive and that we'd appreciate if she stopped wearing it entire. And then whoever's wife gets the the divorce paper filed fast enough wins.

0:23:23 Thomas: Well, nude lingerie is a weird thing.

0:23:25 Tom: All right lingerie I think he's standing in for underwear of any kind

0:23:27 Thomas: I think he just means underwear, because like,

0:23:29 Eli: He means underwear. He does not know the difference between... Also, he mean beige, because part of the dialogue that's been around this piece is people were like, what about brown for brown skin? And he was like, no one has brown skin. And they were like cool, cool, cool, all right. She'll immediately explain that she wears it because it's invisible under clothes. You should then...

0:23:30 Thomas: Like, yeah, that's so funny. Yeah. Oh, God, he does mean underwear. That is so funny, he said lingerie instead of underwear.

0:23:50 Tom: It just means underwear yeah well

0:23:53 Thomas: That's amazing.

0:23:53 Tom: Lingerie technically just means women's underwear that's

0:23:56 Thomas: Yeah, of course, but there's no fucking way colloquially that's what, okay.

0:23:57 Tom: It's not how it's colloquially. Yeah, right. I know. Yeah.

0:24:00 Eli: He speaks French when it is appropriate. He orders mozzarella cheese on his pizza and he tells his wife to throw away all of her beige lingerie. She'll immediately explain that she wears it because it's invisible under clothes. I cannot emphasize the amount of things my wife would say to me before she said it's INVISIBLE UNDER CLOTHES. I would live in a different house by the time she got to the point it's Invisible Under Clothes. You should then point out that one of the colors in the pink-mauve-red range usually is, too, and you'd be happy.

0:24:35 Thomas: What the fuck is happening?

0:24:37 Tom: Red, famously difficult to see under clothes. Red is famously.

0:24:40 Thomas: This is the weirdest thing. I'm still having a stroke. Okay. Yeah.

0:24:44 Eli: You should then point out that one of the colors in them pink - mauve - red range usually as, too. And you'd be happy to help her test every possible alternative and determine the best one, but you really find new lingerie to be a big turnoff no matter the occasion. It's important you make your distaste clear without being pushy or giving her an order of any kind. Once she knows how you feel, observe how she reacts over the following weeks.

0:25:12 Tom: I don't need weeks.

0:25:12 Eli: If she changes nothing or hardly anything in her dressing habits, she qualifies as aggressively indifferent to your tastes. Sorry. Grading the beige lingerie tests, which by the way, he has a bunch more AI slop girls in their underwear under the grading system here. So So just like imagine you're on the Reddit like AI porn. That's what he has like 19 pictures of here under his grave. So here they are. Creating the beige lingerie test. A. Throws out all or almost all of her beige lingerie and never wears it again. B. Mostly stops wearing beige lingerie but still keeps it around.

0:25:51 Thomas: Jesus fucking Christ.

0:25:52 Eli: C. Starts avoiding beige lingerie on special occasions and weekends but still wears it regularly. D. Avoids beige lingerie for a few days, then reverts to her norm. E. Makes no changes to her lingerie habits. Or F. Pointedly

0:26:09 Thomas: Says fuck off and gets a divorce yeah

0:26:13 Eli: Asks whether you're buying the new lingerie. Warning! Don't administer this test if you don't want to know the answer. You might be disappointed.

0:26:23 Tom: I know the answer. Yeah.

0:26:25 Thomas: I don't even know the

0:26:28 Tom: Well, like, can we start off with, like... What the fuck is aggressively indifferent? And why the fuck am I supposed to have that as a new insecurity as a guy with regard because that's what it's being tested supposedly what is and I know it's not even the heart and soul of it but like just if I just take it on its face I'm supposed to want to know if my girlfriend or wife is aggressively indifferent

0:26:42 Thomas: Question yeah yeah here's what's happening tom so these fucking loser dorks have women that hate them and so what they do is they find different every day they notice a different way that wait a minute this woman hates me in this new way which is that when I express a preference like ah I don's like when you wear this they go oh that's fucking great I don't give a fucking shit asshole

0:26:58 Eli: Disappointed nobody cares I wish you were dead

0:27:13 Thomas: Didn't ask your opinion and then they write a whole blog about it in a weird fictionalized way that's not real about how they do a test and then their woman which just instantly makes the change as soon as they express their taste

0:27:28 Eli: Because here's what happened I don't believe this person's ever been in a relationship with a human I do believe that they have managed to get someone like chatting on an app right tinder at one point and he was like I have a bone mo this one seems properly submissive time to test her uh I do not enjoy nude lingerie and they were were like weirdo and blocked him and he was like another woman fails my test time to use my sex doll shaped like michelle obama again yeah

0:27:51 Thomas: Yeah gee

0:28:00 Tom: Like what seems to be the case here is like there's an underlying male insecurity which I I have seen like reflected in places online that women are in these relationships, but that they have no real desire to be in those relationships, that they are sneakily, but that the women are the ones being duplicitous, that there are sneakly in this relationship, that there's sort of like, there's this whole like world, like this internal space that women, are, are having in these relationship that they're not sharing, that these guys have to constantly test against it or whatever

0:28:16 Thomas: I wonder why these dudes are getting that that feeling yeah man because you got kids and a mortgage and you got you all of a sudden you're with this fucking dork and you realize like well how do what can I do can I get a job they don't want to be in the relationship

0:28:46 Tom: I yeah like I think that that's I think oftentimes people are stuck in relationships they don't want to be and I guess that's not what I'm talking about here like I'm saying that there's a male insecurity that this is catering to that says like hey my wife doesn't really love me my girlfriend doesn't actually want to have sex with me my wife actually doesn't want my girlfriend actually want have sex with me I have to constantly test it I have constantly test and I have a constantly make sure because I can never just be secure that the person who wakes up next to me wants to wake up next to me. And so like, I have to go through all these fucking like fucking crazy machinations to try to like suss out the real, you

0:28:50 Thomas: Yeah oh okay sorry yeah which is hilarious

0:29:24 Tom: Know, heart and soul of what women want. Cause they're not going to fucking tell me when you could just like communicate.

0:29:29 Thomas: I was gonna say you could just be like hey I think I've been noticing like you haven't you know maybe been as horny lately is there something going on they have to do everything that would treat their partner as not a person they talk to on a human level but as like this science experiment that they have have to try to get data from it's like you could just be like hey is everything okay it hasn't felt is there anything I'm doing can we you know like what's going on nope can't do

0:29:45 Tom: That. Yeah. Yeah.

0:29:51 Eli: Can I hit you with a hot take that I think creates this kind of thing this sort of like testing and insecurity I think there are a lot of young men who were in the quote -unquote red pill community who aged and or married out of it but it's the the only culture they've been a part of so they have to invent new ways of being oppressed even when they're in relationships right because when they were single they could be like the chads and stacy's are all dating each other but then they met some fucking girl at church who heaved a big sigh and said fine and then they got married you know at a hotel just outside of disneyland because they needed to be frugal and now they have two and a half kids and he's a fucking middle manager at some missile company and he wants to feel oppressed the way he was when he was 17 and nobody wanted to fuck him and she doesn't want to fuck Him but he knows that's because he's gay because of all the colors of underwear he's aware of but he needs to feel impressed he wants to feel pressed in the old ways in the ways so he gets on his blog which he writes under a pen name Jay Sanulier and fucking talks about the beige lingerie test and aggressive indifference yep

0:30:38 Tom: Missile company. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that because like one of the notes that I had on this topic was like there is like an undercurrent. I'm sure you've seen it. There's all this like toxic language where people talk about being high value, low value. And I think like there's a ton of dudes who are constantly like trying to prove that they are these high value men. Right. This alpha male. And they've got this like list of attributes. Right, which nobody is looking for and nobody nobody actually values. And that's what they think is high value. But what they are is desperately afraid that the truth is that they are low value people. And so they are constantly living in this male created tension between what they know to be true, which is that their pieces of shit and that they're undesirable because they've not done any work to make themselves desirable to other people and good partners and loving and trusting and all that stuff. Instead, they're just like what What other guys have told me women want is, you know, money and cars and muscles and all this other stupid shit. And I'm going to listen to the men tell me what women want because women are also inherently untrustworthy. And there's like all of this shit that's built into that, that these guys, I think, have grown up with in these online male curated spaces that like just teaches them all the worst messages. The worst message is about themselves. The worst messages about what value means, what bringing something to the table in a relationship actually entails. The trustworthiness of women, their own like thoughts and feelings about desirability and like trustworthiveness and sexual compatibility. All of that shit's been poisoned by these spaces in ways where they're just like living on this fucking knife's edge of insecurity and like the only way that they've been taught to manage that insecurity is through like this fucking dominance testing bullshit does

0:32:51 Tom: That feel like it feels like it's it this

0:32:52 Eli: No, a hundred percent.

0:32:49 Thomas: That yikes yeah I think so I I don't know this is so foreign to me that I don' t know

0:32:57 Tom: Aggressive indifference stuff is really just being like is your girlfriend submissive enough without using that specific language but like it's also like I'm afraid she she doesn't love me. What do I do? I'm so afraid.

0:33:09 Eli: Cause that's the thing, right? Like the thing about misogyny is it doesn't hold up to the humanity of your wife, right. And this is something that you see in the Christian community all the time, right, which is that the people are raised in these trembling communities, right in these like purity culture communities where the man is the center of the household and the woman is the, the help meet and blah, blah, and then they fall in love and they actually have a partner and they like each other. And liberalism is so obviously true. Equality is so obviously true when you like each other. And look, there are some people for whom clinging to their ideals are more important, so the misogyny still stays in the relationship and sort of dominates over the affection. But I cannot tell you how many listeners just married someone they liked, realized that their entire worldview did not work with having an egalitarian relationship with their favorite person in the world, and it just sort of collapsed out of the the nature of like I don't know I guess I like her and I'd like her to have a say in the house

0:33:17 Thomas: Know

0:34:09 Eli: Right fuck so you have to invent these fucking insane concoctions around your worldview so that it doesn't collapse

0:34:19 Tom: Well, I think men too are telling themselves a story that if they are vulnerable, it makes them less manly. The truth is like, everybody is afraid that we're not always lovable. If you have moments in your life where you're like, I am afraid that I am not lovable, maybe don't phrase it exactly that way, but we all at some point feel that kind of insecurity in some way. And like sane people who aren't afraid of looking weak would simply simply go to their partner and say it like you know like I've been kind of distant lately and I know I've Been working a lot like whatever yeah

0:34:47 Thomas: Feel like eli won't fuck me now that he knows I wear briefs you know like just like that kind of

0:34:50 Tom: Like yeah and like and you would ask for validation right you'd be like I know I'm wearing these briefs and it's disgusting but you know know

0:34:57 Eli: Now that and then when I peel them off you I'm gonna smell the inside of a fucking slaughterhouse oh baby let me run my hands down your bright red thighs Guys, let me get you an ice pack for 30 to 50 minutes so your flesh can return to human colors.

0:34:57 Thomas: Thing it's

0:35:09 Tom: Please we've

0:35:11 Thomas: Disgusting oh man that's not okay not everyone eli not everyone has that okay never mind you know what sure I'll let you have it yeah everybody has whatever the fuck weird thing you're talking talking about

0:35:31 Ad: [Ad break 3 — ad music]

0:35:33 Tom: Been taught as men that if we express that vulnerability and we're taught that by other men right like women aren't saying this that like if we expressed that vulnerability and asked to be validated in that way that like that's weak we can't look weak because women don't like it but women are like yeah we're fucking I'd rather have you do that than like Like, tell me I can't wear underwear. You're being weird. Why are you making this so weird all the time?

0:35:53 Eli: Get honest. Let's Get Real here in the Real House. Maybe it's just me. Maybe you guys are about to shit on me because it turns out I'm wrapping my dick in duct tape because I'm a fucking weirdo who thinks that underwear is a long -sleeved shirt. But the moments where I am vulnerable with my wife, where I'm like, hey, I'm needing to feel loved or I'm really worried about this. I'm not sure if I'm doing this the right way. Like, those are some of the moments that she has appreciated the most where I've been willing to show that side of myself. I've never been like, oh, I'm really doubting myself on this. And Anna's been like. Ew.

0:36:02 Thomas: No apparently I'm doing

0:36:31 Tom: Look, I'm a product of my times, right? Like, so I was born in 78. I'm older than you guys.

0:36:36 Eli: I've ever spoken to Haley.

0:36:38 Tom: I have a hard time being specific. I have hard time about the things that I'm insecure about.

0:36:43 Eli: Haley, I've said about something.

0:36:45 Tom: I don't like it. I will say, like, I do not like it, I have a hard with it, a difficult time expressing it in specific terms. And if I do, I'll just I'll be like, yeah, that's the thing I'm insecure about. And then I don't know what to say after that. I have a hard time with it. I do. So I'm sympathetic to feeling weird about it, but I'm not like sympathetic to making other people feel weird about it. Right. That's the bridge I can't cross. Right? Like I will sometimes say like, hey, I know this is something I'm weird about and I'm sorry. I'm working on trying not to be weird about on it but I feel this way that's kind of the best I can do like I do struggle with that sort of stuff so I I have some grace there but like the solution is not like I'm just going to be psychopathic about it and like control and manipulate you what what?

0:37:32 Eli: Can I say, Tom, I understand that coming from you, because I feel like if you chose to be vulnerable about one thing that kind of opens the floodgates. Right. Right. Like, how could you be like, I don't know, I'm worried that people don't like my poems. Also, earlier in the year, my neck popped itself out and I was in the most pain anyone's ever. Hey, speaking of which, when I was a kid, my head was all full of liquid. I got chased by a snapping turtle. Like, I feel like I feel Like you should keep that gate locked tight, man. I know I know that a lot of people would say otherwise, but me and the consortium of therapists and the automatic gun manufacturers in the state of Illinois.

0:37:59 Thomas: Just never end yeah I think it's a calculation of like look you know you're closer to being dead than not so like maybe maybe just get, just kind of tough this one out, you know? Yeah.

0:38:16 Tom: I'm not. Yeah.

0:38:17 Eli: In the words of tom's doctors let

0:38:21 Tom: I think

0:38:21 Thomas: You don't need to, there's no need to rewrite this whole thing. Just kind of, yeah, see it out.

0:38:26 Eli: It go let it

0:38:28 Tom: I'm probably in the minority on this show, right? I'm sure you guys are much more comfortable expressing those things. I suspect from other things that you've said.

0:38:34 Thomas: It sounds like a three bears situation. It's almost like I'm the one who's, I don't give a shit. I don'T even know what you guys are talking about. Eli's like, sometimes I'm like, oh, I feel a little bad about this thing. And that's nice. And then Tom's like I've never said that in my life. I think that's the three bears I

0:38:40 Eli: Go we

0:38:49 Tom: Yeah, no, I don't hold back my feelings from Haley, but I don'T really know how to talk about them constructively. So a lot of times I just don't. Like, I just don't have a language that makes sense to me and and I also don't feel like it helps me to verbalize a lot of things so I'm just like well that's nothing I don't need I could just work on that on my own until I don'T FEEL IT ANYMORE yeah I need that can you

0:39:09 Eli: Have an emotions chart we do for max when he comes home from school where he just gets to put the little button on how he's feeling then he doesn't have to explain it

0:39:13 Tom: Ship it to me I want to offer like some sympathy that like I do have a hard time with that I think there are plenty of people that do like but I don't understand why people externalize it rather than say, hey, I have a hard time with this. This is something I don't like. I don' t like looking vulnerable. I don't enjoy it.

0:39:23 Eli: I prefer a mauve

0:39:34 Thomas: Know what this is this essay I just or what a book or whatever I just it's made up this is all made up none of this is real Eli's pranking us I is it for an audience yeah is it for an audio of like teenage boys and that's it and

0:39:42 Tom: Well, of course it is. Eli wrote this last night. Yeah.

0:39:52 Thomas: People to to consume it because they hate it so it's like us making fun of it because I just how many people like this yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah this specific writer and because I don't fucking get it I don'T get it man

0:39:58 Eli: Underwear no oh

0:39:59 Tom: It''s for teenage boys and the men who never grow out of being teenage boys.

0:40:02 Eli: Like how popular is this in the real world of reality oh I'm sure there's like Like, let me see. Okay, so Jason Le has 8 ,000 followers on Twitter. So just 2 ,000 shy of Ethan, right?

0:40:20 Thomas: Okay but I mean I guess the andrew tate shit is really fucking popular that is another thing that I can't understand or fathom so yeah I think I'm just wrong

0:40:25 Tom: Yeah, I was going to say, this all rhymes.

0:40:31 Tom: Yeah. All this stuff, I think the thing is, all this stuff rhymes because they...

0:40:34 Eli: He has a blog called How to Trick Your Girlfriend into Being Hotter. It's right after End Attached Garages Now.

0:40:38 Thomas: Dear

0:40:44 Tom: Cool, that's... And attached garages?

0:40:46 Eli: Tom,

0:40:46 Thomas: God that's uh okay

0:40:46 Tom: What? Okay sure sure this is like young man yells at cloud that's all that is like it's like you don't even need right yeah here's what really

0:40:59 Thomas: It's his misogyny mixed in with his complaint of the week or whatever like

0:40:59 Tom: Grinds my gears okay peter well awesome yeah great yeah

0:41:03 Eli: This guy's got a lot of the same takes as you. He's got the same take as you, Tom. He's gotta a lot the same takes as you!

0:41:05 Tom: No he does not that is not accurate I strongly

0:41:09 Thomas: Yeah oh weird

0:41:09 Eli: I feel like you gotta get in here with Jason Le! He's got a blog, too.

0:41:14 Tom: Is he right better is he a better writer okay good thank god okay

0:41:16 Thomas: No we couldn't even make that as a joke

0:41:19 Eli: His first blog is called AI Lome. How AI personally makes everything less meaningful. Stop.

0:41:26 Tom: Well a stopped clock a stopped clock like I it's funny because like I read this to hayley we were talking about I was like oh we might do this as a show topic or whatever and she was baffled as to what there would even be to talk about with this thing yeah but like there's also like I was trying to think of like what are the themes that are sort of embedded in the question like one of the themes that's very hot in this question is like women exist to be attractive to you embedded in this question is the idea that like, you should just always 100 % of the time be working to be attractive to me. That is your primary goal.

0:41:41 Thomas: Me too I'm trying tom I'm trying

0:42:02 Tom: That's what you're for. I don't, well, if they they were nude briefs I'd be in it I'd be fucking

0:42:05 Thomas: But apparently you don't like my briefs so I don't know what to do oh no not nude briefs oh man I just want to say

0:42:10 Eli: Don't like a pig that's been in a sauna for 60 minutes at a time?

0:42:16 Eli: If genitals aren't supposed to be the exact same color and moisture of a tomato, then I'm sorry.

0:42:22 Thomas: Maybe you are projecting a little bit onto me is all I'm saying that because I don't find that

0:42:27 Eli: Sorry there's no fucking shot that if you reach into your briefs right now you're not getting fucking a cup and a half of moisture it's the amazon jungle in there

0:42:37 Thomas: I'm not no it's fine it's totally great reach in do it reach you it's all going according to plan it's It's all going according to plan.

0:42:41 Eli: Nobody believes you nobody believes you you and jay sinelek t sinelek just posted a new blog my dick is dry as a bone actually chapter 41

0:42:54 Tom: I think like the other thing I wanted to like offer there's a theme in here is like it also strongly suggests that like you are only attracted to your wife or girlfriend when she's actively like doing something to make herself look hot. Like if she's just like, if it's just a Sunday afternoon and she's like in sweats and a t -shirt, you're going to be like, yeah, no, I'm not into you. Like, it's gotta be like full hair and makeup and a nice outfit and some sweet lingerie. Or I'm not, I don't know. I don' know. Like embedded in there is like the not so subtle, how hard do you have to work in order to make me attracted to you? And I'm like, then you were just fucking can never attract it to that person that's what that means yeah

0:43:33 Thomas: So many of these men, I think, are just gay. Maybe.

0:43:37 Eli: Oh I'm so glad you brought that up thomas because I would like to conclude our meditation on Jay Similac with an episode of his latest podcast. Yes, he is a colleague.

0:43:39 Thomas: I think.

0:43:47 Eli: I'm so glad you asked.

0:43:48 Thomas: Colleague.

0:43:49 Eli: And so if you'll go to our chat right now, Thomas, I know you're sort of our tech smith. Would you mind playing a little of the audio of his most recent episode? It is episode Reality -Based Beauty Tips, Clothing and Fashion, Part 1, Fit and Modesty.

0:44:05 Tom: God is he one of those people that thinks fucking makeup is tricking you yeah I'm sure sure

0:44:06 Thomas: Okay. Are we going to hear this person?

0:44:09 Eli: I'm sure. His podcast is called Dispelling Beauty Lies.

0:44:13 Thomas: Let's see here.

0:44:13 Tom: Oh great neat

0:44:15 Clip: Hello everyone, welcome to another amazing episode of Dispelling Beauty Lies.

0:44:16 Eli: Well, just, well, that's his voice. Okay.

0:44:18 Thomas: What?

0:44:21 Clip: I'm with my wonderful co-host Carmen hello everyone and I'm Jay Sanilak and today we are going to be talking about clothing and fashion many people will find this to be their favorite chapter most fun chapter of dispelling beauty lies I don't know

0:44:38 Tom: Neat okay I don't I can't I cant I

0:44:39 Eli: That's it. That'S all we needed. I just, I just need it. Cause the best part is just, he's does this whole blog about what we need to wear and how they hate you. And I was like, all right, let me listen to this guy's podcast. Dick. And look, I know that there's a thing as a homophobic to be like a person's gay, but that's, that'S not, sometimes Sometimes people are also gay, and they have a

0:44:40 Thomas: This person's definitely gay. 100%.

0:44:49 Tom: Cant what I really like when a woman wears is a a dick if a woman wears a dick that's my favorite outfit holy

0:45:03 Thomas: No, but what if they're just gay, though? Yeah.

0:45:09 Eli: Podcast about what women should be wearing to properly seduce them. A gay man.

0:45:10 Tom: Shit awesome

0:45:11 Thomas: Yeah, that's really funny.

0:45:15 Clip: DEAR OLD DAD

0:45:22 Eli: All right, gentlemen, before we go, why didn't the skeleton share his secret? Because the information was calcified.

0:45:33 Tom: Oh my god oh my God

0:45:34 Thomas: I like that. That's a little off the beaten path. I like dat. You did? Oh, damn. I was going to be so happy.

0:45:37 Eli: Yeah, a little rogue, a Little Rogue, I wrote that one. No, I didn't. No. So proud of me.

0:45:45 Thomas: I was ready to heap praise on you.

0:45:45 Tom: Very impressed

0:46:33 Eli: Just put your cock in a cage. Don't bring your underwear into it why

0:46:38 Tom: Pick a dong any dong

0:46:42 Thomas: Maybe the problem is that, you know, you guys aren't packing.

0:46:46 Eli: Don't I put my dick in a fucking arm lock for the rest of its life what the fuck is this singing

0:46:58 Thomas: This isn't your grandmother's analysis.

0:47:01 Eli: Marshmallow of a child you don't like a pig that's been in a sauna for 60 minutes at a time