DOD247: Yuckin Yummers

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad, that's my thing I know now what I can offer you that no one else can Complete and under-dependent I'm a man, I'm sensitive I need to feel loved, I need part of being a father that I enjoy

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's not eating that and you shouldn't either. I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined as always by Eli Bosnick and Thomas Smith. Hello gentlemen.

0:00:38 Thomas: Sorry, did, are you possessed? What happened to Tom?

0:00:40 Eli: I was going to say, Tom, how did it feel to say the opposite of yourself as a human?

0:00:40 Tom: I did it backwards! I did... There's pretty much nothing I'm not eating. Yeah.

0:00:50 Thomas: Or it's a trick.

0:00:51 Eli: That's how he gets to eat the thing. That's Tom's version of reverse psychology.

0:00:52 Thomas: He's like, I'm not eating that. Yeah, exactly.

0:00:56 Eli: I'm not going to eat it. You should take your hand off of it.

0:00:58 Tom: I'll tell you like my one big food aversion that I've always had has been goat cheese, and I'm getting over it.

0:01:08 Eli: Well, what's great is you started eating it. You've talked about it on the show before to help Aislinn, and so you have gotten over it.

0:01:14 Thomas: Well, that was like a year ago, so in my mind, Tom still hates the shit, but he's just been trying every day for a year to, like, eat this thing he hates. He just like, oh, I sure don't like this.

0:01:23 Tom: I still cannot. It still doesn't taste like food to me. It still Doesn't taste. It's like I just.

0:01:32 Thomas: Yeah I don't get it there's something wrong with

0:01:33 Tom: But like it doesn't gross me out. It doesn't like I don't have like a strong physical reaction anymore. All that's gone. I've worked all that out. I just can't imagine being like of all the things to eat.

0:01:43 Thomas: It yeah yummy yummy yummy

0:01:43 Tom: This dirty sock flavor is what I want.

0:01:46 Eli: Have you ever had someone try to sell you on goat cheese?

0:01:49 Tom: Do everybody I know loves it. Everybody I know thinks it's so good.

0:01:51 Thomas: Conversation goes the same

0:01:53 Eli: Because they always describe it in the most disguised way possible. They're like, oh, no, dude, I'm telling you, if you get a pizza and you make it with normal cheese and then you put figs on there and then you ever so gently wave a goat cheese over the top, dude. That's the best shit in the world.

0:02:12 Tom: Well my dad used to when I was allergic to cow's milk my dad would try to make like grilled cheese with like feta for me and it's fucking horrible because it's just so salty and like so briny and oh oh nasty

0:02:23 Thomas: Way yeah it's there just tastes like goat I don' t know what it is every time it's the same conversation I'll be like I don't get it it tastes like fucking goat and they'll be like well what are you talking about normal milk is from cows but do you think the cow cow is fine. And I'm like, yes, I don't know why, but somehow a cow is fine. That's like a cow. It's like neutral. I don'T know how.

0:02:44 Eli: It's unclear why a goat tastes funkier than a cow.

0:02:47 Thomas: Yeah, I know it does.

0:02:48 Tom: But it does and people will describe it like oh this one is less goaty flavored and I'm like I don't want any goat flavor

0:02:53 Eli: Yeah. You ever drink goat milk?

0:02:56 Thomas: No, dear

0:02:57 Tom: I told you the story like I've had had so much goat milk back in the 80s my dad made me drink one eight ounce glass of goat milk every single day and he's convinced he's convincing that's why I was as healthy as I was never broke a bone growing up and all of this and back inthe 80s that shit wasn't homogenized so it was lumpy and you had to pour it through a strainer to strain the curds out of it it was awful

0:03:05 Thomas: Every time it was bad.

0:03:07 Eli: Fuck yeah. Hey, Tom, can I say, that sounds like the origins of the curse. There's a lot of dialogue on the internet about why only bad things happen to you, and if we were in a movie and someone was making their kid drink a glass of lumpy goat milk a day, the eventual revelation that they were doing that as part of a satanic ritual would be pretty freaking obvious.

0:03:25 Tom: Awful oh I gotta

0:03:44 Thomas: Hold on. I think we're on, but I have a slight modification.

0:03:47 Eli: Take me there.

0:03:48 Thomas: That'S what was keeping the demon at bay.

0:03:51 Tom: Go back to drinking it

0:03:53 Thomas: It It wasn't actually goat milk. It was a weird potion thing, like a ritual disgusting thing. And the day you stopped drinking it, that's the day the demon came.

0:04:01 Tom: God damn it

0:03:57 Eli: That's the demon came. Or the devil just showed up every morning to curse you and saw you fucking chugging goat milk and was like, oh, God, you know what, I'm going to wait.

0:04:07 Thomas: Gross.

0:04:11 Eli: I'm gonna come back later.

0:04:12 Tom: I'd like to his credit he would try sometimes to make it more palatable by letting me put like chocolate syrup in it and that is a million times worse a million imagine eating a dirty sweat sock covered in chocolate the chocolate didn't make it better it did not instead it's like no I kind of don't like chocolate that's what happened right now now I sort of don't like chocolate fucking

0:04:18 Eli: Heroin in my veins.

0:04:19 Thomas: Goat chocolate. Yeah. No. Yeah. I agree.

0:04:31 Eli: But gentlemen, do you know the only thing worse than drinking a thick, pulp -in glass of goat milk every day for the entirety of Tom's childhood? Why, it's the auto ads. That's the pulpy goat milk of your podcasting experience. But you can make those go away and accept the curse from the devil himself over at patreon.com/dearolddads where for as little as a dollar you get a commercial -free version of every single show, a little parroting version at the end of every episode. Plus we got bonus episodes whenever the smiths damn well feel like it and you'll be grateful, damn it. You'll be great for it. You'll feel grateful when you have them.

0:04:42 Tom: Nasty pulp

0:04:48 Thomas: Goat pulp. The goat pulp of yeah uh

0:05:18 Tom: In what was

0:05:18 Eli: But you can get all of it over at patreon .com forward slash dear old dads. Like Tom into a fresh, thick glass of goat milk. Rip into it.

0:05:38 Ad: [Ad break 1 — ad music]

0:05:39 Tom: That I know for a fact now though that we are going to get emails from people like I own a goat farm and you should try this brand of goat milk I'm not doing it like it does not not matter how many, you could ship me free goat milk for life and that's no goat milk and it's the right amount. It's not.

0:05:50 Thomas: Fucking hate it as

0:05:55 Eli: That's the one lucky thing that happens to you ever in your whole life is a lifetime supply of goat milk.

0:05:58 Thomas: Your hookup for free yeah

0:05:59 Tom: Free goat milk. This is a great segue, surprisingly enough, because we never have great segues. This was a great segue actually to our main event conversation, which is, do you guys struggle with your kids yucking other people's yums, either with food or with experiences? So let me explain what I mean in case anyone's not my kids uh have all gone through a phase but Eamon is pretty hard going through the yucky yum phase where if somebody likes something or wants to do something that he is like not interested in doesn't like you know which right now is a lot of things it's just I'm hoping it's a phase there's like a lot being vocal about that you know and like I also know a ton of adults like a ton of adults who if you order something they're like nah it's fucking

0:06:17 Thomas: Yeah my favorite thing is goat milk and some fucking asshole no I'm just kidding

0:06:52 Tom: Disgusting or you do something like I would fucking never do that I hate that I wouldn't want to go I don't understand I know so many adults that do this there are so many grown -ups that if you tell them you like well like I'll tell you like if you mention for example that you went hunting there's so many people that are like

0:06:52 Thomas: Wait you know um adults that do that yeah

0:07:12 Tom: They want to tell you about

0:07:12 Eli: Already apologized for that, Tom.

0:07:13 Tom: How they hate hunting and they would never want want to go and it's not their thing and you're like

0:07:17 Thomas: Well you're slipping in like you mentioned you kill a guy and they're like oh I prefer you

0:07:21 Tom: I think that's an insane thing to do I don't understand why people do it or like why people feel like that's uh anything short of obnoxious anytime it's done but it's so common it's crazy common I'm wondering if you guys experience this with your kids at all or with adults in your

0:07:39 Eli: It's because there's this part of the internet, this this redditized, meme -ified version of conversation where, like, pineapple on pizza is like a... It's like a fun... Let's have an argument. Is a hot dog a sandwich? And, like... The problem is I'm already so cynical all the time that when someone's like, would you like to repeat the conversation of, like a meme over and over and again with me in real life where I'm... yeah yeah exactly it's like no I'll die thank you and that has sort of evolved that sort of food takeology from the internet the way that like you know how like there used to be one crazy guy in your town who had the opinions of every trumper today like you would go

0:07:54 Tom: Lives right they

0:07:59 Thomas: Not oh no yeah no I'll die thank you no

0:08:14 Tom: Call

0:08:28 Thomas: That's just my whole town they're all

0:08:28 Eli: To your town center and there'd be a guy with

0:08:30 Thomas: Trumpers yeah yeah

0:08:31 Tom: That angels camp california or whatever

0:08:31 Eli: Signs right and he'd be like there's snakes in the government and you'd be be like ah man that guy's in psychosis and now that's just everyone over the age of 55 right

0:08:41 Thomas: You'd be like ted we elected the snakes to the local government what are you talking about you voted for the snakes yeah yeah

0:08:48 Eli: Similarly you now go and you order pineapple on pizza and your friend who you like will be like disgusting and you're like hey we're still both here in the space think about how crazy it is that we now both have to exist at this dinner table while I eat food you just called disgusting Disgusting.

0:09:07 Tom: There is a part of me to call myself out like there's a part of me that feels this way sometimes around pizza specifically and around like Domino's pizza yeah Donovan loves Dominoes pizza and it fucking makes me crazy to be honest it kind of makes me like irrationally angry how much he likes it because it is one in my mind it is so inedibly bad and again I'm not a picky eater I'll eat pretty much anything that's not nailed down like that's fine even if you nail it down if I can pry it up probably gonna eat it I cannot understand how that is sold as food I just hate it it's so bad

0:09:17 Eli: Specific brand.

0:09:48 Thomas: Well after they did the big rebrand thing it was actually edible it was actually better and I love that too yeah the commercials

0:09:54 Tom: That's what everybody says

0:09:53 Eli: God, that was so good. What an amazing commercial series.

0:09:55 Thomas: The commercials were like hey we're

0:09:58 Eli: This is fucking dog shit.

0:09:58 Thomas: Dominoes we heard you our pizza was absolute shit

0:10:05 Eli: Who suggested that? Who risks their job and livelihood?

0:10:07 Tom: Yeah now

0:10:08 Thomas: You know what we used to make it out of cardboard we hear you that's not edible I don't know why we were doing that yeah our

0:10:14 Tom: It's recycled paper plates yeah yeah it's we've upgraded it but here's the thing like so part of me really gets kind of grouchy when he wants to order

0:10:24 Thomas: Red sauce used to be ketchup but now

0:10:27 Tom: Dominoes it's ketchup with oregano in it like we have upgraded but like I don't want to say anything to him about it the reason it makes me mad is like we I feel like we're in chicago we've got lots of great options it isn't actually cheaper to get domino's actually kind of cost a bloody fortune to get this stuff and then like I know but like now by the time you add in all all the delivery fees and everything, it's fucking a million dollars.

0:10:44 Thomas: Oh, what that used to be the one thing maybe in Chicago it's a novelty to not have a lasagna be a pizza so they're like we can charge okay yeah

0:10:56 Tom: That's not even how most people eat the pizza though. Almost nobody gets that. So that kind of like makes me a little nuts. And I think the thing though, that makes me crazy is that for pizza, he'll only eat Domino's. Like he won't eat any of the local pizza places. If you get any pizza, that's not Domino'S, he just won't eat it. And then it's like, God, you just, that make me nuts. So I feel that sense of like wanting to say something and like degrade that experience because it kind of makes me crazy that that's the only experience he'll have yeah but generally speaking I recognize like that's a shit thing to do this is a thing he likes I don't have to eat it I don't have to fucking comment on it it's like this really common thing and I don' t know like if your kids do it but like I'll eat a food and the kids will be like nah it's fucking gross and I'm like fuck I didn't offer it to you what is that impulse what is that impulse it's such a shitty thing to

0:11:26 Eli: What if I wipe some sauce on the box? Are you in then?

0:11:49 Eli: Right. Well, a really important thing to learn young that a lot of adults still don't know is that in matters of taste, nothing is true.

0:12:02 Tom: Do thank you okay that thank you that is yes

0:12:06 Eli: And that's what's really hard to grok about it, which is like, I like my music. I like my food I like my art that must be true with a capital T it can't just be my opinion things that important to me can't Just Be My Opinion everybody has to love Phoebe Bridgers right and everybody has to hate Screamy Rock right like I cannot listen I admire all the people who like that stuff but like when people are like you gotta listen to this and it's like I completely do not enjoy it and I have such a hard time talking about it respectfully Because, to me, my music taste is capital T true. And it's very disquieting. It causes cognitive dissonance, if you will, to go, oh, that's just how I feel about this thing. It is no more or less true than any other thing. And when you're forming your identity as a kid that's even harder right

0:12:27 Thomas: Those two

0:12:49 Tom: Understand yes

0:13:03 Thomas: People

0:13:03 Eli: Because you're like okay I just got off my my fucking training wheels on my bike of personhood and you gain you're like I think this is the pizza I like and the rest of the world is like no no that's not the good one and you'relike oh boy I just really found this one are you sure are you sure, I love

0:13:18 Thomas: Yeah what

0:13:20 Tom: I think actually that hits the nail on the head and I think that's something that like everybody to some degree has that tendency I remember when Cecil and I first started podcasting literally 19 years ago we first started podcasting interesting we had a terrible movie review show called everyone's a critic and we started

0:13:40 Eli: That show how dare you

0:13:40 Tom: That show so bad so bad we startedthat show but I think like we both understood and not I think I remember talking about we bothunderstood that we weren't right that was the fun of doing the show is that there's no such thing as a good movie and a bad movie that's all just nonsense right like the guy who made the worst movie you've ever seen loves that movie probably somebody who who was involved, loves that fucking movie. And people do it with modern art. I hear that take all the time, too, where people are like, I can make that. Four squares and a circle, like, that's nothing. Like, I could... But you didn't, first of all. And, like... It's okay for you just to not like it. But that's not a true fact about the world. That's just a true act about the way your eyes or ears or mouth is interacting with the world,

0:13:42 Eli: I still have the drop box I think I have the last remaining drop box of that that

0:14:29 Thomas: About when the art is actively harmful like say country music that's like nationalist propaganda where it's like actually a political statement for the bad people

0:14:36 Eli: Show yeah I mean you can you can deal with the ideas right that it espouses but I think the the idea of the art itself right is really

0:14:52 Tom: Well country music is funny that's in the goat milk category for me I cannot wrap my head around the

0:14:56 Thomas: I can't drink it

0:14:57 Eli: Tricky my dad used to make me listen to an entire chenny kesney album the

0:15:00 Tom: Appeal kenny

0:15:00 Thomas: Entire glass yeah kenny chit you somehow got the information out of my brain from saying that

0:15:04 Eli: Entire chenney

0:15:05 Tom: Chesney I love

0:15:10 Thomas: Like it was like a spell and I'm like I I laughed because I was like whatever you said is wrong and I am like holy shit I don't know what that is anymore you like

0:15:11 Tom: It jenny

0:15:18 Eli: Kesney chenna kesney

0:15:20 Tom: Kiss me it's so like ingrained in us to offer our opinions without like recognizing that our opinions one are often unwelcome and two like like inappropriately stated as like truths as just like, Hey, this isn't just true for me. This is just like true about the world. And I came across, I don't remember. I think Haley showed me something, but I can't remember where it came from, but it came across this idea related to this that I really like that I think I want to use to talk to the kids about it. And that's your inside thoughts versus your outside thoughts. And I thought that was a really interesting interesting framing of this idea or how to like, maybe frame this with the kids. Cause we talk about inside voices and outside voices. That's a, that's a phrase. I think a lot of people are familiar with. And I thought like, is that a good way to frame, Hey man, sometimes shut the fuck up. Right. Like, cause you can't just say that to the kids, like, Hey, you know, sometimes your opinion is noise. The world doesn't need, you Know, that I'm going to phrase that a little differently.

0:16:23 Eli: And especially because they spend the entire first part of their life with you being like tell me what you think tell me what you want tell me what you feel and then there's this weird cliff they fall off of as teens where all of a sudden they start expressing themselves and the adults in their lives have just clicked off like a switch and they're like nobody needs to hear that

0:16:41 Tom: Yes I'm happy to hear it if it's phrased properly you know hey I really like this oh cool I really like this or I you know it's not my cup of tea like I don't particularly care for that that's all fine but like if you can't phrase it as like here's a fact about me rather than here's a fact about the world yeah

0:16:57 Eli: Well yeah because all of a sudden, the expectation of you goes from express yourself to express yourself in a way that is acceptable I remember being in ninth grade and we read this like short story in English class we had to do like a reflection paper and I was like I did not like this story because and my teacher who I adored like it was a great teacher I did nothing against it was like nobody cares whether or not you liked this story and I remember being like what that's all people have cared about my whole life is just what do you think of that do you like that movie do you like that show do you Like This Do You Like That What Do You Know What Can We Do To Please You And Now They're Like I Have A New Way For You To Address Everything For The Rest Of Your Life forever forever now you will be tested not on what you thought of the experience but how you express those thoughts or if you express them because sometimes you can't say them at all and some people are fine with some thoughts and not fine with others and some people turn into monsters if you expressed the wrong thoughts so don't ever trust them

0:17:06 Tom: It's a good distinction do

0:18:01 Eli: With those thoughts and some people are cool no matter what but you have to guess based on the pineapple and pizza conversation we've all decided was okay to have.

0:18:10 Thomas: Reverse

0:18:11 Tom: You know what's a weird social kind of analogy where I think like we've not evolved properly yeah well yeah I'll get there but like we're sort of like figuring out hey don't kink shame kink shames just like well here's a thing I like you know and everyone's like oh you know if that doesn't appeal to me I'm I'm pretty much supposed to keep my mouth shut right like I'm not supposed to be like that's fucking weird like ah it's just not my cup of tea we figured that shit out but when it comes to experiences or art or food people are super comfortable being like that shitty you know you like taylor swift that's objectively bad music and you're like that'S NOT A FACT ABOUT THE

0:18:16 Eli: Sexual consent. Also, I think we should be kink shaming. Let me come out with a fucking hot take. I think if we can't kink, here's the thing. If you're a person in power, I don't think you should be able to use your power to make another person stop doing their kink between consenting adults. And I don'T think that a sexuality or an identity is a kink. So I donT think it counts. But if you're like, I love getting pissed on, I should be be able to be like, gross, boo you.

0:19:14 Eli: If I like outfit stuff, you should be able to be, like, you fucking weirdo. Like, what else are we talking about if we're not sitting down to judge the sexual kinks of others?

0:19:22 Thomas: Also if we stop kink shaming that might be some people's kink and they'll be like damn it I used to feel all weird about and you know and dirty about the thing I do and now everyone's like oh that's uh that's very nice they're all accepting now I can't

0:19:34 Tom: WORLD yeah you've ruined it by mainstreaming it you've ruined

0:19:36 Thomas: Come please shame

0:19:41 Eli: If you don't kink shame, you end up with people who call their partner their lover in public. What's the point of a society if people are just walking around wearing eternity collars? You know what I'm saying? Like, why did we try civilization as an experiment if If those people are feeling happy, well, and welcome, you know what I'm saying?

0:19:59 Tom: It we're gonna get an email about

0:19:59 Eli: We got this. Only if their master says it's okay.

0:20:12 Ad: [Ad break 2 — ad music]

0:20:14 Tom: That so are your kids doing this at all is this just a tom

0:20:17 Eli: So Max has, because Max, again, is limited down to the strawberry yogurt, one or two other foods that we can sort of sneak in there. Right now we're on two flavors. For those on yogurt watch, yogurt watch. That was the yogurt. We now got two flavors of yogurt, one flavor of gummies and like a cookie thing that he used to eat. So basically health food is what we're on he's on oh he's keto and so one of the things that we have do is we smell and taste things in food therapy and so he will often ask what's that smell when we bring out food and he'll smell it and the way that he communicates that he doesn't want it which is very important to him is to go ew right this big exaggerated ew and so we've had to sort of talk him through that and figuring that out but what's tough is like we're also trying to empower empower him to make food choices rather than just shut down. So it gets extra tricky on that. So yeah, we're dealing with a little bit of that here and there, but as far as I'm concerned, my son thinks everything except for three foods is disgusting.

0:21:16 Eli: So he's yucking quite literally everyone else's yum.

0:21:16 Tom: Problem right does he do it at all with experiences at all let me give you an example real quick about what I mean so like we are trying to get Eamon to want to learn to ride a bicycle or want to learning how to learn how to swim absolutely refuses to want to do these things like will not do them like yeah I'm not doing that like I don't want to do that that's not a thing like I want to do it and it has the same flavor to me of it of this sort of like contrarianism or like opposition to trying new things or being open to new things that feels like at least adjacent to the same problem. Do you run into that at all? Because it's like a real thing over here.

0:21:59 Eli: So, I mean, for us, because so much of Max's things that he doesn't want to do are sensory, it's too loud. It's too noisy. It's too busy. It''s mostly sound -based stuff. There's announcements there's explosions man can we fucking take a second to just talk about how many kids activities involve literal fucking explosions just the dwindling number of places I can take my son that don't occasionally explode something for fun it's a real it's a real war zone out here so it is rarely a sensory thing what we find is trying to get him to explore new media is really tough right because he's allowed his screen time every day and sometimes that's TV time, sometimes that Nintendo time, and like the weird logic loop I have to go through to get him to try a new Mario game I know he's gonna love. Cause what my son wants to do, more than anything in the world is play the first two levels of Mario 3D World he wants to play those first two levels with me and his mom where we do all the stuff, he runs around jumping into the holes and dying, and me and mom make it through these levels, which at this point we could do with our goddamn

0:23:07 Eli: Eyes closed yes truly team speedrunners jumping off each other's heads you know upper kicking fucking bowser in the neck we know all the secrets and so I'm like hey buddy I'm desperately close to a nervous breakdown would you like to try this game plus it's the next thing it's super mario wonder and the amount of times I had to offer that and be like oh you know what this reminds me of every time mario would come up be like you know this reminds me of super maria wonder and And then he went, no! And okay, we're dealing with a lot of that, which is that like, he's very set in his ways. He very much wants to do the things he likes doing. And so getting him to explore new things, it's also tough because like, I don't know if you've experienced this. Five, I don'T know how to interact with him. Six, I feel like he's a little kid and I can have little kid conversations.

0:23:07 Thomas: Me you're like speedrunners now level fucking

0:23:58 Eli: Four, he was a toddler and I Can Have Toddler Conversations. Five feels like such an intermediary space between kid and like toddler which is essentially baby it's so tricky to figure out like when that needs to be a baby conversation and when that needs to a kid conversation right

0:24:16 Thomas: Three

0:24:17 Tom: Yeah. This thing with Amon is like new since he's moved in with us. To some degree, I think, to a fairly large degree, his mom really was not pushing him to have new experiences that sort of evolved with his ongoing maturation so he's 11 at 11 I feel like he should have tried to ride a bike already you know and like but instead she got him like yeah

0:24:40 Thomas: Tried a little marijuana made love to a woman you know

0:24:43 Tom: Oh god jesus christ but like instead like he's got this uh giant tricycle thing you knowand the tricyple is like impractical as you get older right like a tricyicle no matter how big it is is you know lower to the ground it's more dangerous if If you were to get like hit by a car, for example, or anything, it's harder to see you. It doesn't move as quickly. You can't put power into the pedals, which is not as good. It's just not as Good. And like none of the other kids have a giant tricycle. So there's also that element to it as well. So I'm like, hey, you got to learn to ride a bike. But he's like, why? I don't want to learn right. Like, I don'T want to do this. Like ,I'm not interested in these like other types of experiences. And then when you like sort of offer that other people are doing them, there can be like a pushback against it. Like, well, I DON'T want TO do that. I'm not going to do that. You know, it's not for me. And it's like, the world is for you, too, bud. More experience. We talked about this a lot on the show. I think it's, like, an ongoing theme. More experiences rather than less, guys.

0:25:42 Tom: But there's that, like habituation to comfort, I think, that is really tough for me to push the kids out of, you know, get them moved out of that habituation. Thomas, your kids are a little older. Do they do this at all? Like, do they have any of this?

0:25:42 Eli: And

0:25:54 Thomas: Just yeah um I've been trying to think So Arlo does a thing, like he's, for whatever reason, he's always had a very strong, like, in reaction to Phoebe identity. She likes girly stuff and he'll be like, gross, you know, like for some reason. And I don't know, it's, it'm not sure if it's the kind of thing where it's become a problem or anything. Thing they're not old enough to where I've gotten to hear them like interact with friends all that much you know openly or whatever um they're usually just at school or like they've got a couple play dates yeah so far no but I will say the thing you're describing was real big problem in the smith house you know for me and my siblings and you know obviously from my dad and everything like it was very very tough to learn the lesson of like oh just kind of maybe keep my mouth shut out about my opinion about this thing that I don't like until eventually I just like then I got in a weird place where I think some people were liking me expressing stuff in a comedy way and then

0:27:05 Thomas: It became a different like it was kind of weird where I'm like oh shit well I've worked on all these like trying to feel like less annoyed by shitty movies and music that everybody likes but then then also it's like, sometimes it's funny to, or sometimes other people who agree with you want to hear that. And that's like part of our, you know, thing is as podcasters sometimes. And so it's a weird, like, I don't know, it's weird purgatory or something. It's weird. Like, I'm not sure, but I definitely learned to be less, um, just proactively like saying negative shit about things

0:27:43 Eli: That's another big part of being a child/teenager, right what's the cool thing to do when you're a kid hate everything no matter what age you are the coolest possible thing you can do is this is boring this is stupid I have a whole conversation with my college college students about it. I have like six minutes of the first lecture that I do for my college students where I explain to them, hey, there are two kinds of self -sabotage that students do. And the second one that I explain to them is the one where you go, hey I really like this class, I think I want to try hard. And then you think to yourself, what if I try as hard as I can and I end up getting a B? That's going to feel really bad. So what I'm going to do is I'm gonna blow it for the first three quarters of the semester. The last quarter of the the semester, I'm going to work really hard to get my D and I'll tell myself I saved it.

0:28:31 Eli: I'm a hard worker because I saved It at the end.

0:28:33 Tom: I think that really hits on a couple of things There's that whole idea of not trying as a sort of proactive self -defense against failure that I think so many people have, and I think is really destructive to our lives It strikes me as you're talking about this, that it's something that I think a lot of people don't really grow out of Because they don't interrogate it, or they don't really ever get enough positive experiences with failure where they feel like okay if I fail that's all right or like they're afraid of being labeled like a try hard which is like what a crazy yeah yeah

0:29:07 Eli: Yes. Try-hards, nerds, right? I mean, that's a much older cultural touchstone, but what is a nerd? But someone who is enjoying school. I like the thing I go to eight hours a day. What a fucking loser.

0:29:17 Tom: I remember hearing that try hard as an insult for the first time and thinking what an insane thing to insult somebody for doing right like as adults we've all hopefully come to the understanding that trying hard is a good thing Right. It's the only way to get mastery in anything. It'S the only way to like actually achieve anything that matters, even if you're naturally good at stuff. Eventually you're going to run out of runway in the naturally good added territory and you're going to need to try hard in order to get better at stuff, but that idea of like shaming people for trying, shaming people for being excited and interested and like open, like that, that was a huge big deal when I was a teenager, especially especially like as like a person in the Gen X world who like really kind of absorbed that aesthetic of disinterest, right? That slacker kind of aesthetic of like, you know, I got to be too cool for this. I look back at that and I'm like, yeah, all that did was limit my experiences. All that did Was like reduce the size of my world. It didn't actually do anything positive for me, but like, if we're going to throw around insults, like try hard and I's going to be worried about failure because I I'm not being supported when I fail then like kind of what's the self -defense against that like the self defense is just to be like yeah just I'm Not gonna do it I'm not gonna do It in that way like I'll choose where I fail by not engaging in it yeah mm

0:30:47 Eli: And you know, we talked quite a bit and we talked about this a couple of weeks ago when we talked about being sort of consumed by the internet in that sort of job market is bad, therefore why even bother mindset, right? We talked about that sort fatalistic mindset, but what this topic brings up that I think is so important to point out is that it's not new, right.

0:31:06 Eli: Tune in and drop out was just a different branding for that. Don't even bother. Mindset. It's so tough because you, when you do that as a kid/teen the scariest most vulnerable emotional time of your life right where you're truly trying to find out who you are if the answer you give when people ask you who are you is nothing they leave you alone and that's way fucking less scary yeah

0:31:35 Tom: Yeah and like to your point about like things being funny Thomas, like I think we figure out at an early age if we were funny growing up that a lot of comedy comes from hyperbole and hyperboley encourages these sort of absolute statements and so if you're if you'RE working on a comedy that like lives with this like absolutism that also encourages not liking like saying like oh this is categorically bad and let me go off on my whole thing about why this is bad and you're like and you've got a fucking tight five on like why that movie that everybody likes is a piece of shit and everybody around you is laughing but like in the meantime what you're doing without thinking about it or knowing it is you're building a personality that's based mostly around not liking stuff or like what am I all about well here's the things I don't like you know

0:32:21 Thomas: I think that's really important and something that I think that's another end of it because I've always been this way where I actually it's I'm not just a negative person even though it would come across that way I really like the things I really like and I did learn over time that that was a bit of a different thing like I think there were people who maybe I didn't realize were being just merely contrarian, but don't really have that equal passion on the other side, you know, because I think another interesting component of this, another interesting consideration to this is the older I've gotten and the more the internet and AI and all that has kind of just, I won't say ruined, but really changed and affected culture I I've realized that like actually one of the most valuable things in this world is to have taste like actual taste and I don't even mean like oh a very refined whatever I just mean like even just a strong opinion it's almost I think we've gone the other way where it's like nobody has strong opinions on anything sometimes where it'S like or they're are aimless like they don't have and I don't mean like you need to be out there bashing things I just mean literally if people want to make something or decorate their house or do what it's like nobody has any vision anymore somehow and it's Like I think that's a something that's being lost a little bit and is more valuable than I thought which I think is the other side of this so it's How do you maintain both those

0:33:05 Tom: Ruined because I love criticism like I love I love critics I love art critics I like literary critics I think they add a lot food critics I think they don't do though generally the good ones is they don t confuse their judgment about something with like a truth of the world like an absolute truth and I think that's that's a tough thing and I Think part of what you're putting your finger on is I think there's like a I don't want to there's kind of two sides of the coin people who are like I should not be judgmental because they've not learned how to be judgment al maybe we haven't taught people how to say hey it's great to have an opinion a strong opinion it's Great to like things it's to dislike things but there's a way to express it that doesn't alienate the people that do like it to your point about like not liking scream metal, Eli. I don't really like scream metal either, but I'm more than happy to have a conversation with somebody that does, because I'm kind of curious to know what it is that they find exciting about it. What is it that they hear that I don'T hear? And maybe I'll never get there with them. I probably won't. But I can have that conversation because I'M not so interested in saying, that's bad, that shit music, it just sounds like noise. I won't do that. Even Even if that's internally like, hey, I'm not able to appreciate this. Do you know what I mean? Like, we're not doing a good job teaching kids how to and even adults and young people like how to engage the world and still engage criticism and judgment without alienating people, without sort of making these blanket statements that things are this way rather than I feel this way about them.

0:33:55 Eli: Something

0:33:57 Thomas: Things yeah

0:35:29 Eli: That comes up for me that I think about a lot is the replacement of pete wells at the new york times for those of you you who aren't fucking snobs like me, there were two sort of very iconic critics at the New York Times over the last however many years. Ben Brantley, who was their theater critic, and Pete Wells, who wasn't. Pete Wells was their food critic. And they have both been replaced with teams. There are a lot of good things about those teams. Teams. Teams, ma -ma -ma, ma-'ma -mama. A group of people.

0:35:52 Thomas: I don't teams or teens teens okay yeah

0:35:59 Eli: They've all been replaced with a group of People. So there's not this singular voice anymore. And there are a whole lot of good things. About that. The teams are way more diverse. They are representative of a lot of different life experiences that Ben Brantley and Pete Wells obviously were not representing. They are also very positive. And the things that they have to say that are negative are very popular negative things to say on the Internet. They're not like, I don't like this food there. Is it controversial that this person said this or that this person is cooking this kind of food when they don't come from there and so what those two columns have become is much more sort of like buzz feedy featurettes than critical touch points and there's some pushback to that right and whenever there's pushback against anything that includes diversity you have people who very clearly have just sort of jumped on that train because it's a good out for their racism or their sexism or whatever the the case might be but it's something as a like I used to when max was an infant all the way up until he was two when basically he was like please fucking stop god damn it stop the thing that max and I would do when he was a really little baby is I would say do you want a food story and he would yes and come on up and so I would read him the food reviews from the new yorker and the food reviews from new yorke times because they always use a bunch of different words that he hasn't heard before. It's advanced language, it's beautiful language, it's descriptive language, it's not going to be sexual or violent. It's all going to be appropriate for him. And it gives us a chance to like talk about what the new words we're using. And until he basically was like, please never read me another food review, father. I hate these so much. That was something that we had. And even watching that happen as I was reading it to him, I noticed like, oh, the things that I am reading to him now are much more sort of of like news bite informational articles than they are opinions about larger things, right? To get even more niche in the magic world, one of my early teachers, a guy named Jamie Ian Swiss, was the magic reviewer for the number one magic magazine in the world, Genie Magazine, for years and years. I think he was the book reviewer of the magazine for maybe 30 years, something like that. And he was famously harsh, famously critical, famously pointed in his attitudes towards certain things. And I think it really changed the direction of magic. It really meant something. You read those reviews and you think about things other than just whether or not he liked that book. You think about the art form itself. And I feel like I see so much less of that because the only quote unquote take that is acceptable to have is when you're problematizing something, which

0:38:48 Eli: Seems to be the only take people have now is this thing you like is actually problematic.

0:38:58 Ad: [Ad break 3 — ad music]

0:39:00 Tom: When I yes and that, there's one of my literature professors when I was in college, I think my senior year. So like we're pretty far along into the program. We're working on our like 400 level classes and finishing up our degree. So as a small class environment, there's maybe 10 of us, 10 or 12 of us. And I remember he said something like raise your hand if you think everybody has a right to their opinion of course everybody raises their hand and he's like I'd like to know too if everybody's opinion is equally valid and a lot of hands stayed up and he sort of looked around and he was like if everybody's opinion is equally valid what are you paying me for and it just kind of speaks to like what you were just talking about to some degree you know there is room for criticism that has meat to it right that has like substance and it has backing And it has, you know, some real thought behind it. And these pieces and these critiques are well thought out. And they have, you Know, supporting arguments, and they have detail and all that stuff. That stuff is great. And I think that stuff, when it's done well, does meaningfully begin to shape the landscape that like a lot of art and food and other things kind of fall into. To but then there's like my friend that I'm thinking of now where I was having a conversation with four or five of us on a call and somebody there's a famous comedian came up and they're like that comedian is shit and somebody else is like well they pack auditoriums and like yeah they're still shit and I was like I don't know man like 5 000 people paid 150 bucks a ticket and like we give our podcast away for free so maybe we're not right you know like just saying something is bad is not the same thing as substantive and meaningful, like engagement with something. And I think like there's a huge part for kids is they don't do the second part. Like they're not the New York Times critic. You know, they're

0:40:51 Tom: Like finishing their literary degree. They're just like, yeah, I don't like it. It's not cool. You know? And it's like, that's nothing, dude. You're just shrinking your world and alienating the people around you.

0:40:57 Eli: And one of the things that's so hard to explain to your kids, that's so hard to get your kids behind is like, hey, just so you You know, there's like this cheat code for cool right now, which is I don't care. But all the coolest people really, really care. They're all nerds ever.

0:41:15 Tom: Yes, dude, so important. So important, dude.

0:41:18 Thomas: There's nobody above the age of what would you say 23 who is cool by not caring it doesn't ever the first important thing I've ever said

0:41:27 Tom: Dude, that's the most important thing you've said. Like, seriously. That's exactly right, man. There are no adults who are cool by not caring. All of the people that you don't like are that guy, right?

0:41:39 Thomas: Yeah picture sure a 40 year old person who doesn't give a shit that's cool it's

0:41:45 Tom: No, that is exactly right. It's so fucking unattractive in a person in every way to still have that, like, here are the things I don't like, and that's my whole personality. It's just like, fucking, you suck. Fuck you suck so bad

0:41:46 Thomas: Interesting

0:41:54 Eli: It's disturbing. Yeah, yeah. It's nuts. And it almost feels like a betrayal to be in conversation. I don' t know if you've had this, right? And I've had that. I've done this a ton. You hang out with someone from high school or college who all you did was shit on stuff together, and they're still that? And you have a child.

0:42:20 Eli: There's no way they listen to our show. So I feel pretty safe saying this. Buddy of mine from high school, because all I did in high school. Certainly later high school was smoke pot, play D&D. Fucking cool, by the way. And go to drama club rehearsal. And we just shat on everyone and everything. No one was as good an actor as us. No one was as good at D&D as we were. I don't know what the fuck. But we sort of just shad on everyone and everything and this was my buddy and we did that all the time and then we went to college and we never spoke again I don't know if you have this on every 97 years you just see that person show up on facebook messenger and their little circle screen and you're like hey man how you doing right so I was keen for him that night he was like hey man, how you doing now we have not checked in since college I was like oh my gosh, how you doin man and he was fucking awful I hate my job I

0:42:31 Thomas: Yeah that sounds great oh man

0:43:12 Eli: Hate my life everything shit and I I felt myself being shaven and hair cutted right I was like I get it, buddy, motherfucker that's the way she do and he was like how's your life and I was like great my fucking my fucking kid I've experienced a new level of consciousness it It turns out that it's really about the love that you give. It's passed on. It's any definition of magic you might care to use.

0:43:31 Thomas: Yeah that's just really good yeah

0:43:32 Tom: Yeah because you have no idea how to like connect with those people anymore yeah oh my god like I also like want to say like for kids like I fucking get it too. Cause like, we try to like tell people like, Hey, I need you to mature out of a place where your peers have not matured out of is an impossible thing to ask them to do. Right. So if like, if all of their peers are in the, we shit on things because that's the stage in life we're at. And we're going to be there until our like early twenties. And you're like, all right, well, you know, that's actually going to make you a wildly unattractive person in every conceivable way. So I'm just want to put that on your radar that right now you as a person are someone nobody over the age of 25 will like like that's a hard thing you know that's a hard things to ask him to swim upstream against too

0:44:35 Eli: It's tough. It's also tough because here's the other fucking bitch that you have to explain to them. Because here's what they do know. They want to be good at something. It's a huge deal. They're like, oh, God, I want to do this. I want be good. I want something so bad. I love these singers because they're good at singing. I love these actors because they're good at acting. I love this fucking YouTuber because he's good at Minecraft. And then you have to be like, look, those people have cared about that thing for a really long time.

0:45:04 Eli: If you start caring about a thing right now, you'll be granted it one day. You will. There's certain things about natural talent that probably you might not be big or fast or strong, but you can pretty much fucking Hal Jordan your way into being great at 90 % of the world's stuff certainly greater than 99% of the population, but you gotta care right now and they're like nah what I really want to do is shit is

0:45:28 Thomas: No can do. I just want to be good now with no effort. Yeah, I've talked

0:45:30 Eli: Shit on everything right I want to be good instantly right away poison

0:45:36 Thomas: About that with my kids and then I realize and remember, okay, but my kids are like six and eight, like hopefully they grow out of that. I don't know. We'll see.

0:45:44 Tom: Do you know what poisons it I know we gotta wrap up but like real quick do you what poisons is like yeah poison does it every time but like like you see at least back in the 90s like the musicians that I most admired they put out this like veneer of like I don't care about anything like trying is stupid it's like you didn't get good at doing the music thing without trying like these are people who like they spend their life fucking obsessively working in this field that they care so deeply about and then they go out and they're like nothing matters everything's easy don't pay pay attention what

0:46:00 Thomas: Oh, a vibe of, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Totally. It's a great point.

0:46:21 Thomas: Yeah and the whole goal, like that's a good point. Great point, Tom. Specifically with like guitar players, rock guitar players.

0:46:26 Tom: Yes that's what I was thinking of

0:46:27 Thomas: You know, Those are, yeah, those are people who can probably play like fucking classical on their guitar and just wail, maybe, like a lot of the time. And you'd never know it because their whole aesthetic has to be not giving a shit. And it's really, that was actually pretty, like, that's a revelation to me when I learned that like, oh, a lot OF these people are really good at music. Like they're really trained at music because it was so the opposite of what was cool to put out. And I think it kind of still is but also just nobody gives a shit about guitar players anymore can't name a guitar player that's like a new one. But that's a great point.

0:47:04 Tom: I was thinking of like dave grohl from nirvana and then from foo fighters like if you ever like watch an interview with that guy he is incredibly knowledgeable like I don't know what his technical skills are because I'm not a technician with that stuff I don't want to pretend I am but like if you watch an interview with him and he starts talking about music, this is somebody who has a real depth of knowledge for the subject and he was the quintessential grunge band member right where like the whole grunge aesthetic in the 90s was about how much you needed to constantly look like you didn't care about anything the world had to offer by the way I spend a hundred hours a week practicing this thing I'm deeply invested in but I do it in secret

0:47:44 Thomas: That's that's really funny because I saw an interview where that's the funny thing he's he's not an amazing guitar player he's an amazing drummer because you know he was the drummer for

0:47:54 Tom: I remember him talking about drumming yeah

0:47:54 Thomas: Nirvana that's his main instrument he's yeah and the funny things is he really downplays his drumming like I heard him talking uh in an interview and he was really downplaying it in a way that I don't know if it's exactly this thing but I just think that's that's funny that that he he like still feels the need although I think it was more of a false modesty thing I'm not sure I guess that's a different vibe that's another way that it goes it's like false modestry versus trying to look like you don't care is very two very different things and I think now we're more in the false False modesty. I think that's more popular than like the trying to look like you don't give a shit about anything.

0:48:32 Eli: Can I turn you guys on to the best anti-example of this? Are you aware of the rock and roll singer Youngblood? So youngbloed is ozzy osbourne's mentee he sounds like Ozzy Osbourne. He looks like a young hot Ozzy Osbourne. He plays like Ozzy Osbourne music sounds very much like ozie osborn plays that kind of like devil rock and all he does is wholesome nice shit and so it's so funny because everyone around him is like oh man here he comes and he's like to damn it walmart buying all the gifts left on the angel tree and you can literally see people being like and then you're gonna and he is He's like, there they are. This is really lovely. All right. Bye-bye. See, I am obsessed with this guy's social media because for some, how the camera, I, the viewer, the fucking eye of Sauron is waiting for him to bite the head off a bat. And instead he's like here's what I'm raising for charity this week. And we're just like fucking beat someone up or kick a pony or something. I don't know, man. You're fucking, fucking up your brand. And then he gets on stage and he's and we're like ah see there that you were

0:49:37 Thomas: Yummy, yummy, yummy.

0:49:43 Tom: That's what I...

0:49:43 Eli: Supposed to you promised to be that on and off maryland manson turned out to be a bad guy why aren't you doing it but gentlemen I got one more thing to ask you before we leave today what's the difference between iron man and aluminum man iron

0:49:52 Clip: DEAR OLD DAD

0:51:01 Eli: Man will stop a bad boy and a bad man and a good man and I'm not going to say that but an aluminum man will foil his plans whenever the smiths damn well feel like it and you'll be be grateful, damn it. You'll be grateful when you have them.

0:51:12 Tom: If I can pry it up, I'm probably going to eat it. Hey, man, sometimes, shut the fuck up.

0:51:19 Eli: That was the yogurt.