DOD246: When You Want Takesies Backsies on Being a Parent

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad, that's my thing I know now what I can offer you that no one else can Complete and under-dependent I'm a man, I'm sensitive I need to feel loved, I need part of being a father that I enjoy

0:00:29 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast. I don't know what else to say. Hang on. I'm sorry. I got nothing. I thought I had a joke, but I don't have a joke.

0:00:36 Eli: Oh, no, the nihilism got to Tom.

0:00:39 Tom: It ate me up! It ate my up! Ah, shit. It's a podcast. I'm Tom Curry. I am joined, as always, by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick.

0:00:48 Thomas: Oh, this is, this a podcast?

0:00:48 Tom: Hello, gentlemen. I had something and then I didn't have it. I panicked. I PANICKED! Okay all right yeah

0:00:50 Eli: Fucking quitteritis over here. Fucking Bootstraps McGee on last week's episode is here to tell you it's too hard to come up with that blank.

0:01:02 Thomas: I'd say it was really hard to me cause you'd have to remember what the episode's going to be about and I can't do that.

0:01:02 Tom: It's true that's very very true

0:01:10 Thomas: So Tom's already way ahead of me. I'm not going to fucking critique it. That's a lie. I often do

0:01:10 Tom: I took uh one note that's what I did I took literally one

0:01:15 Eli: You are Tom, you are on the podcast.

0:01:19 Thomas: Love it.

0:01:22 Tom: Note so I'm gonna tell you guys because uh nobody else will care but I'm going to make all of our listeners care I brought it up before relative to donovan my stupid vintage audio gear hobby I picked up refurbished I brought some pieces of equipment recently to the shop to have them rebuilt and recapped transistors replaced moderate like all that stuff done I picked them up today and like I could not be more excited I brought him in and donovan was there and he's super interested so he runs over like see what I've got three pieces completely rebuilt and I hooked him up and like his face was all excited and he has no idea that he's gonna get one of of these things for christmas and I cannot wait so what I was doing like the one of them one of them is just mine but there's two of them that I'm like I'd give him either one of these these are both great but his face lit up I have this harman kardon from 1974 I have this piece by harman kardon it's an old quadraphonic receiver and it's got this really cool joystick feature on it where you can adjust how the balance of the sound goes it's just old school as fuck it's really neat and he was like sitting there fiddling with it playing with it and I was like okay that's the one

0:02:27 Tom: Thanks for picking out your christmas present and I can't wait now I can't wait so I'm very

0:02:30 Thomas: It's going be so cool.

0:02:31 Eli: So exciting. Exciting dude is there anything better than being able to do the christmas present switcheroo where someone's like oh that's so cool and you're like it's yours that's like top five best ways to give a present

0:02:40 Tom: Excited yeah I know I love Christmas I fucking love gift giving I know we've talked about this I fucking love gifts giving so much and I'm like in my office recording this and that's where all the gifts are I've got like the best present for cecil and it's just sitting over here and I stare at it every day and I'm like why isn't it Christmas WHY CAN'T I GIVE THIS PRESENT TO HIM LIKE UNDER my desk is like a ton of shit for like Haley and the kids. And I'm like, God, I cannot wait to just give this shit away. I love it so much. It's my favorite.

0:02:47 Eli: Love christmas oh yeah

0:03:17 Tom: Yes.

0:03:17 Eli: So much fun because it's also one of the nicest thoughts you can have too is just sitting there being like what do I want to get this person I know that I I am hard to buy for, I don't think, I don't, I think anyone in my life is hard to buy four. Everyone in my life. I constantly think about like, Oh, I know they would like this. I know they would like that. So I, for me, it always just feels super duper easy to do that kind of stuff.

0:03:20 Tom: You are impossible to buy for Eli Bosnick. Impossible.

0:03:37 Tom: Well, that's because you listen and you pay attention. That's

0:03:40 Eli: Is that what it was?

0:03:40 Thomas: Is that the problem? Fuck. Damn.

0:03:40 Tom: That's what it takes. No, I mean, like that's that's what it takes, but I will say like I listen and I pay attention to you and I still think you're hard to buy four Eli Bosnack. I really do.

0:03:49 Eli: I am very hard to buy for everyone in my life tells me I am hard to buy for.

0:03:52 Tom: And And I have, off to the side, I've even messaged your friend Rachel and been like, hey, I have this idea. She's like, he's already got every one of those he'll ever need. And I'm like, fucking shit.

0:03:59 Eli: He's got two.

0:04:03 Tom: What the fuck? Yeah, you're really hard to buy for. I'll raise my hand and say, I know I'm extraordinarily hard to buy for, too. Haley has a really hard time.

0:04:09 Thomas: I think everyone is because everyone has everything already. I don't know. It's either the stuff people need is not a thing you could buy for a present or they already have whatever Amazon fucking bullshit that it is. I don' t know. I'm not doing well this Christmas.

0:04:21 Eli: I'll tell you why I don' find Tom hard to to buy for is because I know that tom likes books that I recommend and I have an infinite well of books tom hasn't read in my brain at any given moment so I could just be like and we're starting this series

0:04:36 Tom: Yeah, I will say, you've never failed me on a book recommendation, and you're the only person I can think of where every time you've been like you'd like this, I really liked it.

0:04:39 Eli: Never miss baby

0:04:47 Tom: Every single time. I'm actually in the middle right now of reading a book that you recommended, and Joe Hill has a new book that just came out. I can't wait to read it, but I won't start it until I finish the last one that you recommended on the last list that you gave me.

0:04:46 Eli: Oh

0:05:01 Tom: The Long Way, hold on, I always get the title of this fucking, yes, thank you, The Long Way to a Small Angry Planet. Yeah, I'm about three quarters of the way through it. It's really good you gave me a list a while back I've read them all that you gave me and I'm like oh I've got this other book that's on my to be read list but I won't start it until I finish the Bosnick list so and then I'll be harassing you again for more books do

0:05:00 Eli: Which one was that oh long trip to a small angry planet god that book's so fucking good yeah well well you've got some christmas coming your way that is another uh A mandatory suggestion that I know you're going to love, so.

0:05:29 Tom: You know who hit it out of the park this year and I've got I want to give him credit because like he hit it Out of the Park two years in a row by getting me the same gift twice no illusions no illusions I love him not the world's most conscientious gift giver for me because he and I don't have like we know each other through the show we never hang out so I I get him kind of broad generic gifts I know he's into video games I get a thing related to video games and like I hope he doesn't have that and then he probably does and he's gracious enough not to tell me but we had a whole conversation before a show one time about how key lime pie was the best pie and for the last two years he has shipped me from florida frozen authentic key lime pies and I love them so much And I hope he never changes and gets me anything different.

0:06:18 Eli: Fuck yeah.

0:06:18 Tom: If he ever changes, it gets me something different. I'm not going to like him anymore.

0:06:19 Thomas: That's great. Because there's always the pressure of like, oh, do I need to do a different thing? But it's nice when you can be like, nope, locked in. Just that forever.

0:06:27 Eli: Yep. That's what I have for Heath now.

0:06:30 Tom: That's it. Oh, what do you get Heath now? It's cheese.

0:06:31 Eli: Because I swung and missed with Heath a few years in a row. It's cheese. It's cheese. So there is a, his favorite cheese shop in New York, Murray's Cheese, has a gift box that they do every holiday, like a hand -picked gift box, and that's what I get for him every single year.

0:06:32 Thomas: Wheel of cheese. Yeah. Yeah, why mess with perfection? You know, love it.

0:06:46 Tom: When I got the key lime pies for the second year in a row, I tried to make sure I secure them for year three. So I sent Noah a text message and I said, I love my gift.

0:06:55 Thomas: Never change.

0:06:56 Tom: And I'm just saying, when you hit a home run, there's no need to keep shooting three pointers until you get a touchdown. So I feel like he gets it.

0:07:02 Eli: Sounded

0:07:03 Thomas: I can't tell if you're making a joke or if you don't know sports that much. I don't actually. Yeah.

0:07:08 Eli: Right to me tom sounded correct to me but gentlemen do you know the only thing

0:07:15 Thomas: Then my gift giving ability.

0:07:15 Eli: Worse than trying to buy a gift for the man now here's the thing that I will say about thomas's gift giving ability like everything thomas

0:07:22 Thomas: Yeah I've never tried so I don' t know.

0:07:23 Eli: If you don't do fuckery around thomas like if I texted thomas tomorrow hey thomas I would like a red ferrari for christmas this year he would say either great it's on its way or no you can't have that but there would be no fuckery right it wouldn't be like well well I think you're gonna like what I got you was even better no he would yes or no your question would have an answer but gentlemen do you know the only thing worse than that why it's the auto ads interrupting your podcasting experience but you can make those auto ends go away to sweet sweet heaven with the baby jesus at patreon .com forward slash d and d minus where Well, you'll get a commercial -free version.

0:07:32 Thomas: I'll figure it out. Is he fucking with us you know he didn't have a stroke last time which was interesting I was waiting for the stroke the the normal so this time you didn't have a strike you said dnd

0:08:10 Eli: Did I have a stroke this time? I thought I nailed it. Did I D &D minus? I D & D minus. I said the other show.

0:08:13 Thomas: Minus

0:08:15 Tom: Don't know yeah this is Dear Old Dads

0:08:15 Thomas: Yeah yeah yeah why get the show where there's only three of us more money when you

0:08:15 Eli: Sometimes I like to throw myself a little bonus. I like throw myself just a little extra dollar in there.

0:08:24 Tom: Yeah I could divide

0:08:24 Thomas: Could direct money to the show where you're one of 18 people on it. That's a smart, savvy business move.

0:08:29 Eli: Oh, they actually pay me to be on that show. No one else gets money from D & D minus but me.

0:08:34 Tom: That wait

0:08:34 Thomas: You get all the money.

0:08:34 Eli: I collect all the money.

0:08:37 Thomas: Oh, okay. Well, nevermind. I stand correct. Yeah.

0:08:40 Eli: D

0:08:36 Tom: What those

0:08:40 Thomas: D and D minus everybody. If we can make Eli give me half that money, I think I'm still coming up. Wow.

0:08:40 Tom: Are the best dice you've ever rolled that's the best yeah

0:08:41 Eli: & E minus, check it. Yeah, no, it's a really...

0:08:46 Eli: Yeah, they pay me for the privilege of being on D & D minus. They say, yep. They say... Yep. I'm going to say, Eli, D20. Yeah, it's a D20 every time. It's one of those dice. It's a dice every time,

0:08:48 Tom: It's a d20 every time for you you rolled a dice that is good right the one that is the I

0:08:58 Eli: It. It's good dice. It's dice win.

0:09:01 Thomas: He meant a natural 20, right

0:09:03 Eli: Yeah, he did.

0:09:03 Thomas: Okay sweet I know I respected the effort tom I respected the I wasn't gonna call you out but then eli did so I piled on a dice 20

0:09:04 Tom: Don't know just chaotically all right damn it you rolled it dice 20 is good dice 20 is

0:09:10 Eli: Yeah, you got to do what you got to do. I rolled a dice 20. You got to know when to roll them. Know when to fold them.

0:09:24 Tom: Good

0:09:24 Thomas: That makes no sense but I love

0:09:27 Eli: But wait, wait, I've got something serious and important to say because last week we got a follow follow -up in the patreon yeah we got a follow - up to sex doll gate we heard from sex doll listeners parents we give a follow up everything's good but if you want to find that out you've got to subscribe over at patreon .com forward slash deck the hallmarks it's a call forward to me and lydia are starting me and lydia you're going to start a show called deck the Hallmarks we only do Do 31 episodes a year. It's 31 Hallmark movies in 31 days.

0:09:32 Tom: Is it the patreon address yeah don't nope yeah

0:09:52 Thomas: It oh man the show that you don't have yet oh my god I want to be on this show it sounds fun wait what's the 31 part oh you're gonna do them all in a month that's insane

0:10:04 Eli: The days in December? Yeah, that's the thing. It's 31 episodes in 31 days. Yeah.

0:10:11 Thomas: That's fucking okay that's It's crazy. Good luck. Lydia's not doing that. But yeah,

0:10:17 Eli: No, that's the thing, we quit all our other shows so we could just do that. It's a whole thing. Yeah, it's a...

0:10:22 Thomas: I don't like this. Don't like This Idea. I thought I liked it before. Don't Like It Now.

0:10:25 Tom: They have all

0:10:32 Ad: [Ad break 1 — ad music]

0:10:34 Tom: Right so guys we got an email uh no listener name given says I used to be a digital nomad I I was a software developer traveling the world. I would stay in one country for six months to a year and then move to another one, and then to another mine. My passion was, and still is, traveling, learning languages, and experiencing different cultures. I eventually met a girl, fell in love, got married, settled down, and had three kids. Call me stupid, but I was completely unprepared for the amount of responsibility I signed up for and the amount of freedom I gave up. I love my wife and kids, but providing for a family and taking care of kids is not a burden I enjoy bearing. I grieved the life I gave up when nobody depended on me, and I could move whenever and wherever I wanted to on a whim. If I had a time machine and could go back to how life was before I had a wife and kids, I would totally do it. But I can't do that, and I feel trapped. I don't feel like I have a legitimate way to have the life I want to live.

0:11:29 Tom: My wife and children are my only hope. My wife and her kids have done nothing wrong. I can't just abandon them. It would be devastating to them. I don' t have any good reasons to divorce or split up the family, but I want out. I don't know what to do. So the reason I wanted to talk about this unbelievably depressing email, smart,

0:11:43 Thomas: Yeah. Is that it's Lydia in a pseudonym. The thing she did where she changed it from husband to wife, it threw us off a little bit. Yeah.

0:11:50 Eli: I can't wait to start Deck the Hallmarks with Eli. That's when I'll truly be free. Right.

0:11:52 Tom: Smart is I think there's a couple of things in here. I think it's a lot of stuff that's worth talking about. But I think that one of the things I want to talk about is what not to do in this scenario. And I think it's the most common sort of refrain when people express this kind of frustration or these feelings. The The baseline kind of advice that people get is some version of stop feeling that way, or you should be embarrassed that you feel that way or feeling that way makes you a bad person, a bad father, a bad husband, any, any version of that is just so plainly not useful, especially when a lot of people, especially when their kids are younger and they're feeling that weight of that pressure are like, Hey, actually, this isn't, I don't don't love it.

0:12:39 Tom: This hurts. This is not good for my psyche. This is not great. This isn't good for me. It's just so not useful for people to hear messaging that doesn't express it like, hey, that's actually a fairly common thing. Like at some point, not always, but at some point, many people will feel a sense of loss and grief over the changes in their life. Yeah.

0:13:02 Eli: Everybody, everybody everybody feels some variation on this feeling and I think too many people are afraid to admit it I think there are times in parenting and I and I will tell you where my mindset has been in these moments I think absolutely everyone has a moment in parenting where they mourn the life that they left behind and they think that parenting isn't for them and all you have to do first of all and I cannot recommend this enough acceptance cognitive therapy baby oh boy if you haven't read the happiness trap, you are about to feel 80 % better 90 % of the time because acceptance cognitive therapy, which is the exact opposite of sort of like trying to get rid of negative thoughts that shouldn't be there. So like if you have depression, you have negative thoughts that shouldn't Be there, right? You're thinking a thought you're sitting around walking and then the thought in your head says you're fat piece of shit and you should kill yourself. Now that's not true. And so cognitive behavioral therapy teaches you how to basically debunk your own thoughts or how to gaslight yourself into not feeling sad anymore. Super duper important. Baby's first therapy. Cannot recommend it enough. It is as effective, although this is less in modern things, it is as affective as some antidepressants to read the book, Feeling Good, The New Mood Therapy.

0:14:18 Eli: But then you're a grownup. You're a grown-up and the thought that's in your head is a true thought. Youre a fat piece of shit and you should kill yourself. That's tricky, right? That's a lot trickier because you can't debunk that thought. Or to be, I thought that That was a funny joke. I thought I'd get a little bit of a laugh on, Fip.

0:14:32 Thomas: I wasn't, we were both like, yeah, we're

0:14:35 Tom: Stunned. Yeah, Yeah.

0:14:36 Eli: You were agreeing. You were agree. I get it. No, I got it.

0:14:38 Thomas: Afraid. I was afraid in that moment. I didn't know if you were doing a bit.

0:14:42 Eli: So you have a true thought, right? Which is I mourn the life that I had before I had kids. I don't like this part of my life, right. You have a truth thought and cognitive behavioral therapy doesn't work. Now, if you ask a CBT therapist, they'll tell you, oh, no, it still works. You just got to gaslight yourself. But that's not true. And you're too smart for it. And it doesn't look good. You end up doing this weird compromise thing with your CBT where you're like, well, I guess it might be a slight exaggeration. No, no, no. Acceptance cognitive therapy is where you learn to take those thoughts and stop struggling with them and affect them. That's where you learned the difference between struggling with a thought and having a thought. And when you no longer struggle with the thoughts, when you just have it and accept it and learn to live with it, they lose a tremendous amount of their power. Yeah. So my first and foremost recommendation to this person, because I have absolutely felt those feelings. I've absolutely thought those thoughts is Get Yourself the Happiness Trap. It's an incredible book. I will tell you one thing about it that I don't recommend is he says, and look, if you can do the exercises, absolutely do the exercise. He says, do not read this book if you cannot do the excercises. Only read this if you do the exercises. I think that's a terrible idea because

0:15:53 Eli: I think it stops a tremendous amount of people who would get a ton from that book book just listening to it in the car as an audio book or pick it up they put it back down again while they're waiting for the next dungeon crawler carl to come out right like whatever's going on in their life I think a lot of people they hear that first part and they go well I shouldn't read this book I'm not ready for this therapy I don't want to do all the exercises and so they miss out on that tool set so the first thing I recommend is act the second thing this is an ebaz original is when you're feeling this way my biggest recommendation is just don't destroy your life Because I think a tremendous amount of people have these feelings, have these thoughts, and they're so freaked out about them that they're like, I'm going to date a 19 year old. And you know what? You just don't have to do it. Don't start drinking. Don's start doing drugs every day. Don' do a weird thing that's the beginning of a sad movie. All you have to do, while you feel like this, is not do a bad thing that's the beginning of a sad movie, and eventually, with what appears to be 100 % success, at least with the people in my life, you will not feel that way anymore. I don't know any 80 -year -olds who stuck it out and didn't fuck up their life, who were like, nope, nope. Just got worse and worse. I hated it the whole time.

0:17:07 Thomas: And can I just say I've never felt this way and that means you're a bad parent just weren't some people aren't cut out for it I've actually never felt that way but that's okay

0:17:13 Eli: Getting in my time machine to the Remy screams. I'm getting in the time machine for the Ramy screams.

0:17:20 Thomas: Yeah no I'm not saying I love every minute of parenting but it's not worth the conversation because it's probably not helpful but I I actually never have this I can't relate to this in any way it's like I think I'm so depressed about everything but the kids that I never this this never would occur to me. You know what I mean? It's like everything else sucks, but I, I'm always like, well, at least I have these fucking amazing kids. I love so much. I don't know.

0:17:42 Tom: This brings up a bunch of stuff for me that I think is that I've learned and I actually have a bunch of notes on that I wanted to talk about. So like, no, no. No, like not even like I kind of think about this sort of almost like

0:17:47 Eli: I hate my kids. Note one you

0:17:50 Thomas: Tom does hate his kids. Just saying. Just kidding.

0:17:54 Tom: In conjunction, but separately with the kids. No, not at all. But like my life has not turned out very often the way that I have tried to make my life turn out the way that I wanted my life to turn out. Like I've got a lot of curve balls thrown at me in my life. Right.

0:18:09 Eli: Told us one of your goals this year was for your neck to break itself though and that happened that was pretty good

0:18:12 Tom: Yeah. And I think for the most part, I'm in a good mood still. Like, and I think for the most part, I'm actually like I'm rarely down. I'M rarely dour. And I've had a lot more negative experiences and a lot less objective joy than I think, obviously, I would like to have had. But part of that is because, like, I've adopted. Adopted.

0:18:34 Eli: That's such a crazy sentence for you to say it's fucking nuts you might as well be walking out of the gates of Auschwitz being like three star experience

0:18:37 Thomas: Yeah. I was going to say, what is it like to be Job? And then you're just like, ah, well making the best of it.

0:18:43 Eli: I'll say it that's what the story of Job is about it's about

0:18:52 Thomas: You It is about Tom and Tom's like, ah, but it is what it is. And God and the devil or whatever, like, I don't, who wins in this situation? I don' t know who won. So, yeah.

0:18:55 Tom: I guess

0:18:56 Eli: Tom you were supposed to curse his name who?

0:19:10 Ad: [Ad break 2 — ad music]

0:19:12 Tom: Like, I feel like I've learned a few things that I think might be useful. And Eli, it's probably just my way of like overstating and understating at the same time. A lot of the stuff that you would probably learn in the acceptance therapy, right? So it's just like the shit that I've like kind of worked out. But like one of the things that I've learned that is is true is that responsibility for other people really is fucking heavy. But if you can find a way to be proud of it rather than focus on the weight of it, you will shift the way that burden feels. And that has been really useful for me. I am responsible for a lot of people. I bear a lot of responsibility for a whole life. And there have been times where I could have looked at that and been like, fuck, this is fucking heavily because it's fucking heavy and it is a lot lot of responsibility. But I choose intentionally to make it a point of pride rather than something that I'm like, oh, I don't like the way this feels. It's maybe not fair. This is a lot of work. When do I come in? Those are legitimate questions, but they're not useful questions. And what's been more useful for me personally is to look around and be like, all these people rely on me and I don't ever let them down. And I'm so proud of that. And now I can bear the weight of those those responsibilities in a way that like lets me stand a little taller rather than feel bowed under the weight of it, if that makes sense.

0:20:34 Tom: That has been really, really useful for me as somebody who carries a lot of responsibility for other people.

0:20:39 Eli: Thinking about how lucky you are to be able to provide those things for your family is a huge, again, that sort of comes into the cognitive behavioral space, which is like, in what ways can this negative thought become positive?

0:20:43 Tom: Yeah. Yeah, related to that, I recognize that when you have responsibility for Other People, it is because people trust you and there's no better gift that somebody can give you than their trust. And I recognize that too. When my My kids, when my wife, when the people in my life, when they come to me as somebody who bears responsibility for them, I recognize it's because they trust me.

0:21:14 Tom: And that's a huge gift that they're offering to me. They're saying, hey, like, I know that in the world full of people, the person who's got my back is you. And I get to feel really good about that. And if I choose to feel good about it, I'm going to feel like, oh, my God, another fucking thing I have to do. Like, which is more useful for me to do the next thing the next day?

0:21:32 Eli: Yeah, exactly.

0:21:32 Tom: That has been enormously helpful for me to frame my thoughts around and as a result I just like I get to do the things and be like oh man I really fucking helped so -and -so out today you know I really made a difference like I I got up at five o 'clock in the morning and I fucking drove to the grocery store when they opened at six o' clock to get Cheerios and like Aislinn got to have her breakfast and start her day for finals with food that she wanted to start and like I got to be a a little bit of a hero instead of a task that's a pain in the ass you get to be a bit of a hero so I just think that framing is a big difference it matters to me at least

0:22:06 Eli: Yeah I think with that framing is something that comes up in ACT therapy a lot is the idea of away moves and towards moves, right? Which is that like, whether or not you are happy at any given moment is usually out of your control because there's so much luck involved. There's so many things that so much situational stuff involved is to whether or Not you are Happy, right, because some people get incredibly unlucky. Some people get incredibly lucky. So wanting to be happy is kind of like wanting to win the lottery, right. You don't have a ton of control over that. What you do have have control over is whether or not you're making what they call an ACT away moves or towards moves, right? So you have values, you have goals, things that you want to be. I want to being kind. I want to generous. I wanna be loved by my family. I wanted to be relied on by the people who care about me, right? Those are your values. And then you get to say, are the things that I am doing away moves are towards moves. Now for this listener, it sounds like you're doing a lot of towards moves right? You're taking care of your family. You're supporting people financially. You're putting them first you're supporting them you're doing all those things those are towards moves you can't control how you feel about it right now but it does mean that the goals you probably have down the line having a rich family life having a long life that is supported by children who are grown a long -term partner who feels supported by you and who you feel happy supporting right like all of those things you are making the towards moves to eventually get yourself there. And unless you say, no, I have changed my values and I've been there. I have changing my values where all I want to do is feel ease and comfort. That's okay. Sometimes we want to feel ease comfort in our lives. But when you really look at it, when you drill down on it, you find, Hey, this hard thing I'm doing right now that makes me feel unhappy. This actually does match my values, even though it's not making

0:23:56 Eli: Me happy. It's going to make me happier in the long run

0:23:59 Tom: I think about that in terms of like is this proof back to myself that I'm the kind of man I want to be I think About that a lot as a value that's something I think about like am I the person that I want to be and a lot of times these things that like our responsibilities they reinforce back back to myself that I am working on becoming the kind of person I want to be and so that that for me to that end like it really shifts that perspective away from a burden perspective and more toward like hey I really got something important out of this if the only thing I got out of it was like I reinforced that I think I am walking in the right direction toward being a good man like that's that's something that I value and always have one of the notes that I also have is like if the only thing that you let bring you joy are the big things or the things that you expected to bring you Joy, then you're shutting down a lot of opportunities to be happy. That's a big deal. I think that especially if we've had times in our life that were filled with sort of the big happiness, the easy happiness, The Big Joys, The Easy Joys. If we're just constantly comparing everything to that rather than living in a moment and saying like, all right, well, well, like, what is a joy I can find in this moment?

0:25:13 Tom: I'm not always going to be on my honeymoon in Fiji or whatever, you know?

0:25:13 Eli: I could see behind me while my neck is broken that's pretty neat

0:25:18 Tom: Like, you're not always gonna be on vacation. You're not Always gonna be 25. You're Not Always gonna Be Healthy. There are things in your life, youre gonna live a whole life. There are Things that are gonna be fucking not cash money. And if the only way for you to feel joy is to compare where you're at today day with the best moments of your life, you're fucked. That's nothing. That is a terrible, you are just setting yourself up for abject disaster and abject failure. You can't replicate yesterday. That should not be your goal. But I think there's a lot of people that fall into that trap too.

0:25:57 Eli: And I would also argue that a very healthy way for a lot of your life to tell if something was good or bad was to see how it felt so your early relationships right you would go on a date with someone you'd have a boyfriend or a girlfriend or a partner right and then if it felt good that was probably a good thing friendships jobs college relationships right all this stuff, your feelings, how it felt to experience those things was a really good signal about whether something was positive or negative. And there are still aspects of your life where that's a great, right? Is this job right for me? Yeah, I love it. I wake up every day excited to go work at this feed store or I hate this feed story. I don't want to be here. That's still a really good way. But when it comes to family stuff, when it come to our obligations to our our families and each other, how you feel is not a great judge of whether or not something is good.

0:26:51 Tom: I couldn't agree with that more. And I will highlight the danger that is inherent in living that way. If your feelings are the only barometer for whether or not something is something that is good and that you want to pursue and continue to do, then you are now basically somebody who's uncommitted to your family. You are fickle. And you might not know it yet, but if that's your barometer, there will come a time where shit goes wrong. Shit goes wrong for everybody. People get sick. People age. People lose jobs. Bad things are to be expected. Hardship is a norm of the human experience.

0:27:29 Tom: You have to have a mindset that allows for hardship, recognizes that hardship will be the norm and that that is part of the human experience and that like feeling bad or feeling good is not really that important because it's really not. That's just a momentary. Yeah.

0:27:48 Eli: Well, you don't have any control over it, right? You don't have any over whether or not you're going to feel good. You only have control over the things you do.

0:27:55 Tom: Yeah. Like if you are going into every situation thinking, if I feel good, this is good and is sustainable. And then if I Feel Bad, I should correct for this problem. That's how people to your point earlier, that's how People make big decisions and leave their wives and then you know, fuck their secretary and do all this other crazy stuff. Because they've never figured out that like, there's going to be times where things are difficult, there'll be times when they feel bad, There's going to be times where they're sick. They're going to age. They'RE going to go broke. Maybe like shit's going To go wrong and they have done none of the work to prepare themselves for hardship And so they're going say hey, I've got a feeling and it's bad, and I'm fixing the bad feeling Rather than like I've a feeling, and it'S bad And it's related to a set of circumstances that are likely to be temporary And if they're not temporary then I have to learn how to feel differently despite bad things things happening in my life. And I say that like it's easy. It's a mindset that you have to aggressively cultivate and work toward. I don't think that there's an alternative to it. And I don'T actually think it's even unique to this particular listener, which is why I wanted to talk about this.

0:29:05 Eli: Absolutely. And I've look, I've been there. Part of the reason why I wanted to talk about it is I've absolutely been in this place, right. And it's the thing that I tell new parents all the time when someone's like, what should I expect? I say, Hey, there is going to be a time where you think to your, unless you're Thomas, there's going to be a time where you think to yourself, I have made a mistake. I was not meant to be a parent. And I have make a mistake, I was actually supposed to live a cool, groovy, 50 without kids life, and you know, go travel the world and see Europe, I've made a terrible mistake, I am unhappy, I had ruined my life and now my life is over.

0:29:41 Thomas: The fuck? Really?

0:29:42 Eli: Yeah, I think a ton of parents have that feeling. The comparison that I make is it is sort of like if the first time you bench-pressed you loaded 300 pounds on the bar and tried to bring it down over your chest and you said this is working out. It is this moment here where I cannot lift this weight. This is all working out will ever be I don't know why I strove to feel like the weight was too heavy and hard This is that it has been you're just dealing with the difficult part And if you hold out right because here's the truth there are people out there who are much happier on their own and we could talk about sort of those very very much but for the most part when we look at all of humanity through all of history they tend to say this was worth it and the idea that like everyone else was just too afraid to admit it is psychotic and I'll say because I've had the thought where I've been like yeah well everyone does say it's worth it everyone says it's worthy after all and then in the middle of the night when you're replacing the passy for the 97th time you're like I think everyone in the universe but at me was lying

0:30:45 Tom: I'll tell a non -parenting related story that's kind of related to the idea of sticking through some things that kind of suck. So the job that I have now, I've had for 15 years. I've been in the same industry for 25 plus years. And I came from a company where I was like kind of the number two. I was fairly well regarded, but I was bored. So I needed to make a change. I got a job at a much bigger company. And when I walked in the door to the building I was going to be working at, it was literally a commercial slumlord. It was 12 ,000 square feet of beige cubicles.

0:31:20 Thomas: Took the job and never looked back. And that's where he works today. And he loves it. Yeah.

0:31:22 Eli: I love it I loved every second of

0:31:25 Tom: I had taken about a 35 % pay cut to get this job in a much bigger company. And I did all this because I was like, I know there's more opportunity for me here. I can build a wedge here that will turn into something bigger. The other job, there was never going to be any growth there. I was just, I was at the top.

0:31:35 Thomas: And he's always wanted to be a slumlord. It's like his top thing so

0:31:43 Eli: It he didn't want to be in the now he's a slum lord

0:31:45 Tom: But I had this thought, I should quit and go back to what's comfortable. I should quit. I should leave this job. It's my first day. The other people will take me back. I was comfortable there. I know there was no way for me to grow as a person at that other job, but I wasn't miserable, and I knew what it was to be happy at that other job. Or at least I knew What it was to do that job and to be well regarded and well respected in that job. I chose not to do it. It was a good choice for me. Now that doesn't always work out for everybody, but like I don't want to recognize that. But the point of it is like a lot of what we encounter in our life is also trying to move through that transitional space where we're leaving behind something that's also just what we've known. And whenever you move out of something that you've known for a long time, it feels comfortable, even if it's not good for you. A lot of things that aren't good foryou will feel comfortable because you've grown used to them. I think there's a lot of people who struggle with transitions in different parts of their lives and and then want to like go

0:32:48 Tom: Back because they've confused what's good for them with what's comfortable.

0:32:47 Eli: Like my son yeah yeah

0:32:55 Tom: And those things are rarely the same thing. They're almost never the same thing, actually.

0:33:00 Eli: Well I talked about this on like our hundredth episode of gam I did like a little pre it's the only time I've ever done like a step out on gam but I talked about it like I did the safe choice podcasting saved me from it but like when I got offered the sales job that I was talking about last week, and I got offered a show at the same time. I took the sales jobs because the sales was money now. Until podcasting came along, I was like, oh, that was my opportunity. But I took the safe choice. I did the comfortable thing. And if it hadn't been for a roast at that company that I happened to do a pretty good job at, I would have reaped the consequences of that.

0:33:44 Ad: [Ad break 3 — ad music]

0:33:47 Thomas: Have the thought occasionally that I've expressed to lydia where I'm like oh man if I had this podcasting thing before kids we could be we could travel to anywhere and then I forget about it five seconds later is that is that the kind of thing you're talking I don't know I don't understand? Okay, okay.

0:34:00 Eli: Yeah, that's good. That's like a thought. That is like a feeling of regret well

0:34:04 Thomas: Now that can't be it because I literally that passes in a second and I don't think about it again. Okay.

0:34:10 Eli: You know some people have a longer attention span I think it's just imagine that it lasted a little bit longer I feel like that

0:34:17 Tom: I think for a lot of people, there is a really significant struggle with going from being responsible only for ourselves, which is incredibly easy. Just the only person I'm responsible for is just me. I get to decide when I go to bed. I get the time of day. I get time to decide, for the most part, when I get up. I'm not getting up to help anybody else out. I'm not staying up late to do something with the kids.

0:34:40 Eli: Hey tom if you're actually deciding when you get up I need to report you to the hague for you I've

0:34:43 Thomas: Yeah, we need to, this is absolutely not true.

0:34:47 Eli: Seen your sleep watch stats you uh you need to let yourself wake

0:34:49 Tom: It's bad. Brother, I know it.

0:34:52 Eli: Up later don't interrupt doing something

0:34:54 Tom: But, like, if you're responsible only for yourself, you're eating the meals you want at the times that you want them, right? You're quitting your job because you don't like it. And, you know, if you're the only person who eats shit and you get to move into a small apartment, Like all of your choices only affect you. And there's an enormous amount of freedom to that just outside of the like, hey, we could travel and see the world, that kind of thing. Like just there's any normous amount of Freedom in being able to make any and all of your own responsibility decisions because you're the only one affected by them. So, you know, inherently the only one eating shit if something goes wrong as me, I'm willing to eat X amount of shit. As soon as you become responsible for other people though, whether it's a spouse, whether whether it's kids, whatever it is, now your options are narrower. They're just narrower. And I think there's a real sense of tightening that some people feel that's like, because when we just think about it in terms of, you know, like, oh, I wouldn't be able to like go to Europe or something like that feels like one very privileged and two very narrow. And I totally am like, yeah, it's fucking OK. That's vacation. But I think There's also like a hey, like I might job that I hate for 10 years because I've got to feed this family. And that's a much more significant thing that people much more often are going to have to contend with.

0:36:10 Tom: And that's part of like being responsible for other people. And I totally understand why that can feel bad. I've done it like I can I can understand it because I'm done it. I told a story on the show before. I desperately wanted to return to teaching. I chose not to teach because I had a really bad student teaching experience. I got into this real estate business. I absolutely hated it, hated it hated it with every fiber of my being. I woke up I went to work and every day was miserable and it was miserable for like 13 hours. It was horrible and I did it for a decade and a half before it got palatable and financially viable for me. I was also broke for most of it. So that wasn't helpful. So I get it. Like, that sucks. If I was only responsible for me, I'd be like, fuck it. I'll live in my car rather than do this one more day. But I wasn't only responsible for myself. So I woke my ass up. And sometimes I had two and sometimes I had three jobs. And I did those jobs to take care of other people. I think that's the bigger issue that people struggle with that are in these positions of responsibility.

0:37:17 Tom: Does that change it at all for you, Thomas? Does that make it more relatable in any way?

0:37:22 Thomas: No, I think I just don't have much to add to this. I think everything you're saying makes sense. And I think it'll be really helpful for Lydia to hear.

0:37:30 Eli: Do you hear that, ladies? Stop crying while you edit.

0:37:37 Thomas: Lately, she's been wigging and shouting, this isn't the life I chose, this is not the life I chose. So yeah, she just wants to do Fuck the Hallmarks.

0:37:40 Eli: Yeah. Check the hallmarks. I knew it.

0:37:47 Tom: Well I don't know I I hope that was I hope that was helpful and I hope it's more than just stop feeling that way because I don' t think that stop feeling that way is anything

0:37:54 Eli: No, stop feeling that way is not helpful. In fact, completely know that what you are feeling is normal and lots and lots of people feel it. And lots and lot of people will feel it for big parts of their lives and then look back and go, you know what? I felt that way. Now I feel good. And I'm glad I felt like that. I felt I felt this way because it got me to here.

0:38:10 Tom: Yeah I'll add one quick thing that I I thought of like I was thinking about my dad my dad was not expecting to be a full-time parent he got a phone call I know I told this story before he got a phone call the night before my brother and I came to live with him. He's living in a house in Chicago. We were living in Florida. He had an arranged visitation schedule. He got a phone call. The boys are coming to live with you tomorrow. No, no. My mom said, the boys are coming to live with you tomorrow. They're getting on an airplane tomorrow.

0:38:32 Eli: That's with Lynn, his girlfriend. Cool.

0:38:40 Tom: I'm sure that he had feelings about that, right? He didn't even have a kitchen at the time. Like, he was in the middle of remodeling the kitchen. He didn't have a bedroom or beds or clothes or any of that stuff. So I'm certain that my dad did not say, awesome. This is exactly what I was expecting, but he did it, right?

0:39:02 Eli: Cool, cool, cool.

0:39:02 Tom: Yeah. Cool. Awesome. Yeah. He's a person like everybody else. He had a vision for how his life was going and was going to go. And then all of a sudden it got flipped and turned upside down. That's just going to happen in our lives. It's happened to me a bunch of times. Where you're just like, all right, cool. I think I got a handle on it. And then it's like, nope, you don't. Here's what's going to happen. It's all different.

0:39:23 Tom: And I think we have to build a sort of internal reservoir that we can dip into and also like a mindset that's flexible around what we expect from ourselves that allows us to adapt to that kind of stuff. Because if we don't, I just, I think we're fucked, right? We're fucked.

0:39:41 Eli: And here's the thing. You will always have control over whether or not you are acting according to your values. No one will ever take, there will be never be a situation, right? And that's the really cool thing about ACT is that they test ACT in like war zones, right, where people are dealing with like absolute starvation and murder and war and all that sort of stuff. And the amazing thing about ACT is no matter what is happening around you or to you, it's got nothing to do with your luck, right? Because you are in control of whether or not you are acting towards your values, whether or nicht you're making away moves or towards moves.

0:40:20 Eli: But gentlemen, more importantly than that, what's orange and sounds like a parrot, a carrot?

0:40:14 Clip: DEAR OLD DAD

0:40:28 Tom: Oh my God. Oh my god.

0:40:31 Thomas: Yikes. You know, sometimes I regret being on the show. No, I'm just kidding. Deal with thoughts of having to put up with dad jokes like that.

0:40:37 Eli: Dad jokes like that one.

0:40:45 Thomas: Sorry that I didn't really, you know, have much to say on this one. I don't really.

0:40:48 Eli: You've got a sweet life and nothing's ever gone wrong for you, Thomas.

0:40:50 Thomas: No, it's not that.

0:40:51 Eli: I always say that about you.

0:40:51 Thomas: I'm thinking about it. And I was going to say this next before Eli just, you know, ended the show with that horrible joke.

0:40:56 Eli: How dare you?

0:40:57 Thomas: It actually wasn't even meant to be the end of the show. He just wanted to tell that joke. Like, I just wonder,

0:41:00 Eli: They both quit the show, and I've been spending the last couple of hours begging them to come back on air, yeah.

0:41:06 Thomas: It's like the same, the same way that I've kind of been about everything is just, I like know what I like and I know what I don't like. I think it's kind of the same deal. The minute I, I went on one date with Lydia, I knew I was marrying Lydia. The minute I saw the house we wanted, that was the house I knew I wanted. It like I just and my whole life I've known that I wanted kids and the minute I had Phoebe it was confirmed it's like oh yep that's it and so it's not really yeah I just can't relate to it because it's that I just it's sort of like a given of my life you know what I mean I'm not saying that it's like you've heard me complain about Remy you've already complained about Ramy and Phoebe are really really tough lately although Remy is making up for it by being the literal cutest baby I mean he's turning three, but he is so cute. The way he talks is so fucking funny. He talks just like Elmo now. He has an exact like accent, but his vocabulary is getting better. He's an absolute joy, but He's also a nightmare and it's really tough, but it's like, I don't know how else to explain it other than no matter how hard it might be, it doesn't occur to me that there would be anything different because I wouldn't want anything different. I just literally would would never even think about that. I don't know.

0:41:31 Eli: Nailed it again, Thomas.

0:42:18 Tom: Good yeah

0:42:18 Thomas: Is that not, how

0:42:19 Tom: No I I yeah I think I get that I think the direction that I have come to arrive at is a little different like I I feel like less in control of my my, I

0:42:29 Eli: Fucking hate it here.

0:42:30 Thomas: Do I phrase this? Diplomatic.

0:42:33 Eli: I pray for death. I spend every waking moment just wishing it was over. Oh, God, kill me now.

0:42:37 Tom: Feel less in control. I guess I feel like I'm trying as hard as I can to shape the to shape, the direction that my life goes in, but it may not go in that direction. And so like, it's a lot less about my choices.

0:42:45 Eli: But nothing is working. Yeah, Thomas, maybe it's because everything's always gone your way. Have you considered that?

0:43:00 Tom: No, no, I don't mean it that way. I just, that's my my you know so like

0:43:04 Eli: No, I can't ever think of anything ever bad happening to Thomas. Can you?

0:43:06 Thomas: Yeah. Don't get me wrong. I'm locked in a living hell that I wish I was out of, but it's not. The kids are the one thing. Yeah. The kid's not the kids. It's, it's really interesting.

0:43:07 Tom: Yeah no I know I

0:43:12 Eli: I wish you wouldn't talk about our podcasting relationship like that.

0:43:17 Tom: Know when

0:43:19 Thomas: Um, all right, Eli, you should tell a joke. Do a real, no, I'm just kidding.

0:44:09 Tom: You hit a home run there's no need to keep shooting three pointers until you get a touchdown it's a d20 every time for you

0:44:19 Eli: Gotta know when to roll them. Know when to dice them.

0:44:27 Eli: I thought that was a funny joke. I thought I'd get a little bit of a laugh. I'm gonna date a 19 -year -old.

0:44:35 Thomas: And he's always wanted to be a slumlord. It was like his top thing.