DOD245: I'd Say My Biggest Weakness Is Stupid Interview Questions

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad, that's my thing I know now what I can offer you that no one else can Complete and under-dependent I'm a man, I'm sensitive I need to feel loved, I need part of being a father that I enjoy

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's talking right out of this interview. I'm Tom Curry.

0:00:34 Thomas: Hello.

0:00:34 Tom: I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen. I am excited by the way, and we'll get into it after our banter, but I'm excited to do this episode because I've been the guy doing interviews for such a long time that this is going to be a really fun topic.

0:00:51 Thomas: I hate that. Dear God, I hate that,

0:00:54 Tom: Interviewing people, it's the fucking worst. Yeah. I'd rather fire a hundred people than hire one.

0:00:53 Eli: Hey,

0:00:58 Thomas: Imagine, well, okay, I don't know if I'm evil like you.

0:01:01 Tom: That's a long odds actually

0:01:02 Thomas: For me, I think it might come from a different place. Like, I feel like compassion or whatever. So, like, I feel bad about how shitty everyone is. Because imagine Eli's impression of me, which is my internal monologue and, and someone comes in and

0:01:07 Tom: Oh that's not my problem yeah no

0:01:14 Eli: How's it going? You can't have the job because you're so fat.

0:01:19 Tom: The problem

0:01:19 Thomas: I don't think that it's, they just suck. Like they're just not good at answering the questions or anything. Like when I had to do interviews at the state, we were trying to find somebody to do the kind of data stuff that I was doing, which is admittedly, it was a little weird for the state. Like if I, if we were a tech company, it would have made perfect sense. There would have been a ton of good applicants, but we were kind of trying to do tech company stuff at the state in a way that wasn't really even like authorized for a while so it was a weird thing admittedly so we had to go through tons of applicants that were just nothing they were nowhere obviously we put it all in the description like we put all where someone could read it if they read it nobody read it not a single person yeah

0:01:56 Eli: I didn't read the description. I just click apply on everything.

0:02:01 Thomas: Fair

0:02:02 Tom: Thomas is like if you only showed up to jobs where you fit every part of the criteria almost nobody would ever apply for a job so you've got to show up and be like look I'm gonna let you and I tell my kids the same thing let somebody else reject you or get the offer and reject it later but don't disqualify yourself before you show up that's stupid

0:02:09 Thomas: That's fair yep yep no that's fair that is fair but I imagine you would at least read the fucking thing and there may be some jobs if it was like nuclear engineer or something where you'd be like okay well I won't do that one I don't know about tom but yeah there'd be

0:02:35 Tom: Yeah I'd still show

0:02:38 Eli: When I interviewed people, because I mostly interviewed actors, right? So I was hiring people for a sales job, but I hired actors to do it because we were doing Times Square, Toys R Us, and F.A.O. Schwartz.

0:02:45 Thomas: Oh man sell me this pen oh

0:02:52 Tom: Up oh

0:02:52 Eli: And the amount of people who had no idea what they were walking into interview for like none I mean I lost count of the amount of people who sat down and said I'm so sorry can you tell me a little about this job I

0:03:06 Thomas: My god I would not do that oh

0:03:06 Tom: My god that's insane

0:03:08 Eli: Would make stuff up I'd have fun with it yeah I'd be like well we're a construction company and we make big old cranes and wrecking balls we need a lady strong enough to lift our wrecking balls with just her thighs and I think you're the yeah exactly

0:03:21 Tom: We're gay pornographers it's uh yeah

0:03:23 Thomas: Dang it wait this is already the showdown back to the regularly scheduled banter uh my whole house is sick that's fucking great love that remy was up all night poor guy being sick phoebe had 104 .5 fever fever fever I also am exhausted and maybe sick well I definitely have a cold I don't know if I have a fever but yeah it's that time of year just every single couple weeks gotta go through this fucking shit and remy was having like night terror sickness

0:03:35 Tom: Right fever of fever fever oh god man finn used to have night terrors like and I think if I remember I wasn't there for them I believe that aislan had them as well finn had night terrors for a while and we figured out that he was just too hot like you can with little kids will have night terrors when they just get like overheated at night their pajamas are too warm they have too many blankets and they have fucking full -on night terrors and it's the craziest shit in the world the first time a kid has a night terror and they're screaming and you run into the room and they'RE SITTING BOLT UPRIGHT ASLEEP AND SCREAMING AND IT'S LIKE Like, yeah, I mean, I feel you, like I do.

0:04:26 Thomas: That's my that's tom's day terror that he has all the time

0:04:28 Eli: Okay gotta

0:04:30 Tom: Like, I'm sympathetic at a deep, visceral level.

0:04:31 Eli: Turn

0:04:33 Thomas: Tom is the night terror

0:04:35 Eli: That into an inside scream kiddo I'm the one who nightmares

0:04:36 Thomas: Yeah the alarming part is how like sometimes it'll just be like and then nothing like he's fine I was like what the fuck yeah that was the weirdest part I went in there thinking something you know, pterodactyl had gotten him and he was fine.

0:04:37 Tom: Fucking A, man. Yes, yeah. It's fucking wild, isn't it?

0:04:52 Tom: And there's never a time where, like, with so many other things with kids, you're like, oh, that was fucking weird the first time it happened, but I won't respond to it the same way again. There's no not responding to your kid screaming in terror, right? Right. Because the one time you're like, I don't know, it'll probably be not somebody stealing them. That's the time

0:05:05 Eli: Let's wait it out that's somebody stealing them 100

0:05:12 Thomas: Yeah, that is the pterodactyl.

0:05:12 Tom: Somebody steals them. Right. And then somehow that's on you. You know, you're the bad guy now. We had the same thing, though. Like we everybody in the house except me got sick with a pretty bad cold. Like the couple of the kids are still coughing and like it roared through everybody. Amen. Finn, Donovan, Aislinn, Haley, they all got sick. I don't get colds thankfully or I haven't many many years but like they all got sick no no

0:05:38 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, that's because the virus goes, no, oh, no thanks. No.

0:05:41 Eli: Yeah because here's the crazy thing right because here's what's not true tom doesn't get colds so what is true is tom's life is so filled with pain and suffering that when he has a cold. He does not notice.

0:05:48 Thomas: It's so bad.

0:05:54 Tom: Yeah no I think I would probably notice

0:05:54 Thomas: Yeah that's it. It's either that or what I said.

0:05:58 Eli: I don't think you would.

0:05:59 Tom: I would I noticed when my neck

0:06:01 Eli: I think it takes neck breaking for you to notice.

0:06:02 Tom: Broke I actually had my six month appointment this morning and I will let you guys know neck gate my bone is uh healing so the bone growth is ahead of schedule which I'm very very happy about so the fusion has taken place and the bone it's good it's significantly ahead of schedule so I'm I was very happy about that because I was nervous there's a certain percentage of people that after you get a fusion the bone doesn't grow and if the bone doesn't grow you're just kind of like, fucked. And it sucks.

0:06:19 Eli: Drink your milk, everybody.

0:06:19 Thomas: Yeah it is.

0:06:29 Eli: Superbowlers. I cannot think of a worse person to have a healing factor than Tom Curry.

0:06:40 Eli: You know how they have all these comics that are set like way in the future and everyone Wolverine knows is dead and he's just wandering around. It's the only bad thing that hasn't happened to Tom Curry yet.

0:06:50 Thomas: Oh god, yeah He'll be the one person who for some reason gets like the neural link or something accidentally.

0:06:57 Tom: Betsy.

0:06:58 Thomas: I don't know. Even though it's not him.

0:06:59 Eli: When we go to upload all of our collective consciousnesses into a solar -powered satellite light and send it out into space so that we all live forever we accidentally just do tom no wait guys you forgot oh damn it I did a reverse soma

0:07:11 Tom: I would just tell everybody I was fine. I'm fine. It's okay. It's good.

0:07:15 Eli: That's okay here's what it is I'll tell you it's been a rough hundred thousand years we

0:07:26 Thomas: Hoping the next hundred thousand is better.

0:07:27 Tom: We were joking the other day about pain tolerance we were talking like hayley's mom was in town I remember how the subject came up but hayley made the joke because Hayley has an incredible pain tolerance it's ridiculous it's miraculous and we're talking about it and then Hayley, like, mentioned she's like you could get fucking injured I've seen it and you just say oh huh that caught my attention and I'm like well did it catch my attention that's how you know something's wrong is it it rose to the level of my attention you know oh

0:07:36 Eli: Were torturing her present gets hit by a car

0:07:57 Thomas: Present. Oh, man. No.

0:08:01 Eli: I have an incredibly low pain tolerance and so throughout my life people have been like that didn't hurt And I'm like, yes, it did. Experience is fucking existential. Fuck you.

0:08:13 Tom: God you know what I wonder about pain stuff though because Aislinn used to have an incredibly low threshold for pain or discomfort she would like absolutely lose her mind if she saw even the most like minute red scratch on herself I mean she would just fucking lose it and then she broke her arm and then that changed everything after that and I wonder too like to some degree like I think a big part of it yeah is context and I think a big part of it too is just like how much do we expect to just hurt sometimes and how much do we not expect like because I think when kids are really little and we've taken really good care of them and they've never you know they're not expecting anything to hurt so when they get a shot they're like holy shit what the fuck was that nothing ever hurts and now this hurts and then like I think as adults if you just have more discomfort that's part of your daily life you're just like yeah I just I'm okay it doesn't upset me that something hurts because like I know it's not a problem and

0:08:37 Thomas: Oh, she had like context. Yeah.

0:09:19 Tom: I expect a certain amount of discomfort I think that gap for kids is a big

0:09:23 Thomas: I also think there could be an ADHD thing of like not able to control the thoughts of the anticipation of pain is a big thing. Shots are really fucking hard in this house, except of course, perfect kid Arlo who has decided Arlo does a lot of things just in reaction to Phoebe. He just wants to be the opposite of Phoebe, so he literally the other month was like I like shots and they're like we gotta go get our shots he's like great love it awesome and he stuck to his guns like he stuck it wasn't like a kid thing where he said that and then like oh he got it was like he gutted it out the whole time he was like oh oh, that was fine. It was crazy.

0:09:30 Tom: Deal sure

0:09:30 Eli: Hmm. Good.

0:09:47 Tom: Yeah awesome can

0:09:52 Eli: Looking forward to it. Do my dick.

0:09:54 Tom: I get three shots that's awesome

0:10:06 Eli: Oh, that's a little phenomenon called autism commitment. And it is the most dangerous thing in the world. Because here's the thing. A great way to deal with normal neurotypical children is to call their bluff. Oh, you don't want to eat your dinner? Then you'll sit there until you eat your dinner. Meanwhile, your autistic kid's on a fucking hunger strike like Gandhi, and you're like, hey, I was fucking around. I should have read a parenting book before I called your bluff.

0:10:10 Tom: Though yeah

0:10:33 Eli: It's been 30 days and 30 nights. That chair's pretty caked in shit.

0:10:35 Thomas: I feel that to my core with my family.

0:10:37 Tom: I would say too like even if your kids are neurotypical don't do the you'll sit here there too I know it's just an example don't you that's it don't do

0:10:41 Eli: No, obviously you should never do that. But any attempt to call your autistic child's bluff is a terrible idea. You should just hostage negotiate with your autistic child all the time.

0:10:51 Thomas: You should just give in to the terrorism. That's my new philosophy. Just give in. Just negotiate with terrorists. That is what they always say.

0:10:57 Tom: That right negotiate with it there's also just like some kids who aren't autistic that are like fantastically stubborn we've got exactly the two opposites in our house like we've We've got a couple of kids that are just like Aislinn is Haley. So the stubborn is fucking its tree roots into the fucking center of the earth. Then there's like me who's like, I'm not stubborn really at all. And like Donovan and Finn, like just not really very stubborn at all, and like when I was growing up, my dad, I was telling this story the other day, like one of the kids didn't do their dishes or something. So I was like, when I was a kid, my brother, who is the most stubborn human being ever, would clash with my dad, who was also the most stubborn human being ever. And so my brother didn't do his chore. His chore was to do the dishes. So my dad came home, didn't say a word, got all the dirty dishes, walked into my brother's bedroom, put them into my mother's room, put them in my brother, and then put the covers over it. It was like you're sleeping with the dirty dish until you do the dish. And my brother slept with the fucking dirty dishes.

0:11:00 Eli: Miss Rachel over here.

0:11:59 Thomas: Course.

0:11:59 Eli: Of course you did, yeah.

0:11:59 Thomas: Yeah. 100%.

0:12:01 Tom: I would be ashamed that I didn't do it, apologize profusely, do the dishes and never not do the dishes again because I'm not a fucking psychopath but also like when my kids don't do the dishes I'm just like hey I think you forgot to do the dishes and they're like oh shit I did and I'll say next time please remember to do the dishes and you know what they do next time they remember to do the dishes like neither side makes any sense at all right they're both weirdly pathologically like like insane responses to a scenario both sides neither side is good being insanely stubborn that's not like a benefit to your life being wildly inflexible when pushed not a benefit

0:12:24 Thomas: That not remember oh no god I feel this I feel like your dad's whole life might be some sort of dare like that like he's calling someone's bluff

0:12:54 Tom: That's why I brought my dad just as constantly like 100 of the time calling everybody out and it's like dad no one's fighting with you man sometimes people just forget now Bob, my brother he didn't just forget he was being a willful asshole he was being a willful asshole and my dad knew it right because it wasn't like the fifth time this happened it's not like by doing this he solved the problem

0:13:06 Thomas: Forever yeah now he's an asshole fuck that guy yeah

0:13:17 Tom: And everything got better it was not a great parenting technique it didn't resolve the situation both sides are insane I told the kids this and they looked at me like I was a fucking psycho and they're like your stories are nuts and I'm like I didn't put dishes in anyone's bed this is just a thing that happened around me

0:13:34 Thomas: Well stop having weird shit happening around you

0:13:34 Tom: Man but yeah it. We have an

0:13:38 Thomas: Man oh

0:13:38 Eli: But gentlemen do you know the only thing worse than the continued existential existence of tom curry why it's the auto ads not as bad as the lived experience of tom curry but pretty close you can make those go away over at patreon.com forward slash dear old dads where for as little as a dollar you get access to behind the scenes bonus extras patrons this week your patron bonus this we have an email from sex doll listeners parents explaining the situation first of all everyone's fine everyone's happy no one was made sad by that episode everything's okay everyone's having a good time parents are cash money kid is cash money it's all good but we have their side of the story

0:14:03 Thomas: Shit parents I don't believe that yeah not just not just the kid not just which already would be amazing we've got the parents follow -up that's gonna be our patron extra story I actually just pledged even though I already it might be we'll see act now oh

0:14:25 Tom: Update.

0:14:32 Eli: That's our patron extra today the fact that it's not set to a million dollars is a gift a gift that oh yeah it might be so check if we haven't done it yet get in there patreon.com forward slash dear old dads sex doll the other side of the story

0:14:49 Thomas: The doll's

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0:14:57 Tom: All right, so Eli, you dropped this Reddit post into our show topic notes, and I love it. I'm going to go ahead and read the Reddit post, and we can chit -chat about it. And this is great, especially because I've got kids that are going to be, one kid has done a job interview, and they're definitely looking for jobs. So this is from the anti -work subreddit, so, you know, unsurprising. When are the stupid questions during interviews going to stop I had an interview and part way through the interviewer asked me what my favorite drink is and I said water he gave me a weird look and said come on you can do better than that I didn't know what to say so I didn'T say anything and we just sat there and looked at each other for about 15 seconds in silence he stops the interview and said I'm not what they are looking for I'm NOT sure what that was all about but I I feel like I dodged a bullet and Eli, the responses here. And again, you've got to recognize the subreddit is, is doing a lot of work here

0:15:16 Thomas: Side oh wow huh huh

0:15:54 Tom: In terms of weeding people out. But the responses are abs. Everyone's like, yeah, you sure did dodge a bullet.

0:16:00 Eli: Yeah that's fucking bullshit what a stupid question

0:16:03 Thomas: That's kind kind of a stupid question, but no,

0:16:06 Tom: But like, here's the thing. Doesn't matter.

0:16:09 Thomas: I agree with you there.

0:16:10 Tom: That's something that like, I have to like really impress. And I didn't, I don't remember this being a thing when I was a kid, but I'm a million years old and don't Remember anything, But like you would get asked a series of stupid questions in interviews and you understood implicitly or maybe explicitly, maybe somebody did tell me, but you understood that like part of this is they're just trying to kind of ask you a dumb question to get you to talk, to develop some kind of rapport, see about your personality, maybe understand your problem solving skills on the fly, see how you might be in a situation where something awkward might. You understood this like it was understood that like these questions they serve a function they serve a purpose and so if you are here for the interview presumably you want the job and you should play along this kind of shit where people are like nah just stare it at them

0:16:39 Thomas: No, thanks.

0:17:03 Eli: Do you not understand what a magnificent failure of the test it is that they went you can do better than that and you went, hey, do you think there might ever be a scenario in the workplace where you don't have the answer to something or there's an uncomfortable silence? Do you think we want to hire this moment? Are you thinking we're hoping to replicate this situation? Yeah.

0:17:29 Thomas: Fair.

0:17:30 Tom: Also like if you've ever been responsible for interviewing people it's the hardest thing in the entire world.

0:17:37 Thomas: Hate it.

0:17:37 Tom: You've got an absolutely insane power dynamic that sets the conversation that you're beginning the conversation with. An absolutely insane power dynamic. And a lot of times what you're looking for from the hard skills department, you already know. The resume tells you the hard skill. So 99 % of what you are looking for in a candidate and what separates one candidate from another is the soft skills, the people skills, those kinds of things. I already know from your resume if you can perform the task, right? Their resume should tell me 90 % of that information. So all I'm trying to do is figure out who you are. And the power dynamic is utterly insane. And you have weird questions that you kind of have to ask in order to get awkward people to open up in some way. It's the worst.

0:18:28 Tom: I'm good at talking to people and it's the the worst yeah

0:18:32 Eli: I hired people for sales. And so it was all soft skills, right? It was just like, can you have this conversation? How engaging are you? And here's the crazy thing. And I wonder if this is true for those of you who hired for real jobs, people sat down and said hi and I could go next. Like that's how quickly I knew whether or not someone was right for a sales job.

0:18:51 Thomas: 100%. I wasn't even doing sales job, and I also knew, like, it's just, it can really tell with people.

0:18:58 Eli: Right. And they were always the longest interview. The person who wasn't right for the job was always the one who was like, so what are the hours like on Monday?

0:19:00 Thomas: Oh, God. We just closed.

0:19:07 Eli: It's a nine to five shift.

0:19:07 Tom: Excuse

0:19:07 Thomas: We're not in business anymore we so never mind no

0:19:09 Eli: I see. What are the hours? Like on Tuesday? Wednesday. Got it. All right. What are the hours like on one second? I'm getting it. Okay. Let me tell you some of my favorite hiring people stories though. And I know I've told these other places, but I do have to talk about it. There was a lady who came with a storybook she had written.

0:19:11 Thomas: There's the buildings on fire we're dead we're dying please please kill me please kill my your new job is to kill me oh no

0:19:30 Eli: She read it to me. It was very similar to Llama Llama Red Pajama. And so she finished the story and she was like, have you ever heard Llama llama red pajama? And I was like no, no, that's not the story you just read to me. And she's like, no, she stole my story.

0:19:39 Thomas: Oh my god oh my gosh

0:19:46 Eli: And I was like, cool. That's the craziest thing you've ever said. How do I exit this conversation? The other guy and the one who I think about maybe a thousand times a week, the job description, I said, please bring something to sell me. You don't actually have to sell it to me, just want to see how you are in a sales situation. And what that meant was 90 % of the people didn't read the job subscription. They sat down and I said great, what did you bring to sell to me? Me and they'd go what and I'd go great uh so yeah if you

0:19:44 Tom: Me uh what

0:19:48 Thomas: That's incredible wow yep you got

0:20:15 Eli: Don't hear from us just assume we exactly we got hit by a bus right and then the people who did bring things to sell me they would either do a good job or a bad job if you brought something to sell 99 .999999 % of the time you got the job because you read the description you were willing to do that silly thing right but one guy brought a sock

0:20:15 Thomas: The job because it was only one guy who did it yeah oh

0:20:35 Eli: Puppet and the sock puppet I gotta talk about this because I I feel like I haven't emphasized it strongly enough the sock puppet in a completely straight voice begged me for a job

0:20:47 Tom: I would I don't know what I would

0:20:47 Eli: It literally was like please give me a job it's been really hard and I was like ha ha and he was like no I'm not joking I'm in serious financial stress right now and this puppet begged me me for a job I know it was only for like 60 seconds but it was the relativity was proven that day because I felt

0:21:02 Tom: Do what the

0:21:11 Thomas: Yeah it was well this this was tim did you know it was tim what's his name fucking yeah oh my god

0:21:13 Tom: Fuck what what

0:21:15 Eli: It yeah exactly I missed that it was tim robinson it was truly I think about that guy like six or seven times a week

0:21:21 Thomas: That's incredible I actually love that that might have been amazing

0:21:24 Eli: One guy was like he was like I teach horror movie actors how to scream without hurting their voice and I was like oh my gosh that's so cool and then we used to interview people in this cafe across from FBO Schwartz and he proceeds to go no god no and I was like oh my god that's the worst thing that's ever happened max volume the entire cafe fell silent

0:21:34 Thomas: Proceeds to scream oh my god no way

0:21:50 Tom: Do you think that's because you were high because I've never had I've had a lot of bad candidates but I've ever had anybody show up with a fucking sock but do you you think it's because you were hiring for creative positions in New York, right? Yeah, right.

0:21:54 Thomas: Yeah that's pretty insane

0:21:59 Eli: 100 it was because I was hiring for creative positions in the craziest city in the world

0:22:04 Tom: Yeah. Yeah, I will say like I've had a lot of people come through where they weren't the right fit. And then I've depending on their age, sometimes I'll stop and say, hey, we're not going to be a fit. I'd like to give you some advice on what you can do next time that you have an interview. It'll go a little better for you. And I've I've done that for young people two dozen times, like young people don't know what they're doing. It goes well every time, every time.

0:22:25 Thomas: Does it ever go well every time that's surprising wow then I'd want to hire those people

0:22:34 Tom: If honesty and you're like, I'm actually just, I just want to help you. And I'll tell people like, I don't think you're the right fit. Here's why. Also, next time you're in an interview, strongly recommend, you know, like dressing nicer for it.

0:22:43 Thomas: Don't bring that fucking sock puppet yeah yeah

0:22:44 Eli: Yes shower

0:22:46 Tom: Yeah. Well, I've, I'd have to tell people like, you're going to want to dress nicer for the interview next time. I would expect somebody to walk in for a job like this wearing X, Y, or Z. So do that. You know, next Time, you should come in with questions prepared to ask me, you'll whatever the, whatever the feedback honestly was, it goes really well. It goes really, really well if you're just decent to them. I'm not trying to be a shit with them. We're trying to be the opposite.

0:23:11 Tom: Everybody's pretty good with it. I will say I've had... I agree with you. I always know who the no's are right away. It doesn't mean that every yes that I've ever hired turned out to be a good hire. I've hired a lot of people and been like, oh my God, massive mistake. But I've never not hired somebody and been like that was the one that got away. That was it.

0:23:23 Thomas: Right. Right. 100%. Yeah.

0:23:32 Tom: That was the one that I really think about them every night. My kids are getting to the point where they're going to be interviewing for internships. They're going to be interviewing for college positions. They're gonna be interviewing for jobs. And I think about this Reddit post. That's why I wanted to talk about this Reddit post because I do think that there's kind of this pervasive idea out there that if you think the question is stupid or It doesn't make any sense that that's an appropriate way for you to respond, like even internally to this question or whatever. And I don't really know where that comes from. It feels, and I hate to use this word because I actually don't believe in this word for the younger generation, but it does feel like maybe entitled in some way.

0:24:22 Thomas: I think it's I think

0:24:22 Tom: I don'T know what the right phrase, that's not even the right word. There's a, there's something to it though, that feels generational. Am I totally off base?

0:24:28 Thomas: You're being a bit of a boomer, a bit of a boomer.

0:24:31 Tom: That's fine. Yeah, I want to check.

0:24:31 Thomas: But because I think that the thing that is really prevalent, especially in that subreddit, and I get it, is jobs don't pay anything now. So it's almost the opposite of entitled. There's a huge attitude of what the fuck is the point of any of this? Oh, OK, I'll get a job and make nothing and still not be able to afford anything. Why am I going to fucking can bend over backwards for the man who's barely going to pay me anything not give me health insurance like because they kind of need the it's a bit of a nihilistic feeling and I think I get it I also think that there's more of an awareness of like just abusive people in general and I think people are on the lookout for potentially a boss that's going to be a piece of shit and that definitely happens because like my first boss after college was this mormon kind of asshole boomer guy and we were interviewing to try to get like an intern type thing and he was exactly the asshole you'd think so I didn't get to ask any questions even though I probably should have I just kind of was sitting there and you know I was fucking what was I 21 or two or something so I didn't know anything he tries to make a point like uh and this is a young woman that he's asking he goes what if I asked you to uh empty out that garbage can right there and she's like uh I don't know I guess I would maybe do it yeah what if what if I asked you and he's trying to make this stupid point of like I'm the boss I tell you fucking what to do whatever because she was an intern so she was like from the college that I went to actually she was still a student there and then like the I remember like the professor or somebody who gave feedback and was like did you ask her like to empty a garbage can or something weird it's just like he like got in trouble for the stupid fucking interview he did and there's a lot of people like that and I think that people are more aware of like fuck off you know what

0:24:54 Tom: But then if you don't want the job, why are you showing up for an interview?

0:26:18 Eli: Yeah so

0:26:18 Thomas: Nobody should put up with that kind of thing

0:26:20 Eli: I had that exact thing happen to me as well my old company, the one where I actually interviewed people for jobs, right? They occasionally can't sell because they're a British company. They can't send a British person over, but they need someone to do a hiring. And because they were super nice to me and gave me three years pay when they fired me, I'm like, yep, whatever you need for literally ever. Oh, do you not know this story? Yeah. So the defunct land just came up, which means everyone in my life has sent it to me because it's literally the story. I have for years been like, guys, you're not going to believe how crazy see this story is and defunct land finally put

0:26:37 Tom: Three years pay.

0:26:38 Thomas: Oh that's right I remember this story fuck forgot about this what's defunct land I don't know what that

0:26:53 Eli: It out and okay so defunced land is this channel that mostly talks about amusement parks but has largely just talked about sort of the history of like amusement stuff and they just put out a video on the closure of time square toys r us and fao schwartz and they're a great channel like a documentarian so they took this full story of what happened to my life they just Put It Out and everyone in my life has been like Eli you told me me that happened. And I got to admit, kind of thought you were making it up. It's fucking incredible. I can't believe you lived through that.

0:27:15 Thomas: Oh shit I gotta watch

0:27:18 Tom: Yeah, same.

0:27:23 Thomas: This yeah oh my god I have to watch this have you not told me about this

0:27:28 Tom: I got to watch this thing, too.

0:27:30 Eli: Oh my God. It'S incredible.

0:27:31 Thomas: Okay next week shows we're gonna watch that and talk about eli's

0:27:33 Eli: Yeah. Yeah, long

0:27:35 Tom: Holy

0:27:41 Ad: [Ad break 2 — ad music]

0:27:43 Eli: Story short with about two months notice, both of the stores that I was running for seven years at my job were closed. The company that I worked for at the time, Marvin's magic, they had been owned by this larger toy group. I called them. I was like, Hey, like what's happening to me? And they were like, well, you're on a four year contract. We want to honor that. So when it closes, we will give you three years worth of pay. We're not going to finish out this year. We'll give you 3 years worth to pay up front. And I was like, and what hole are you going to put a bunch of stuff into? Cause I need to know the answer's not, no, I just want to scratch.

0:28:07 Tom: Shit. Hell yeah. Just prepare it, right? Yeah.

0:28:17 Eli: And yeah. And then they were like, all right, fuck off. And so whenever they asked me to do something, so which brings me to this interview thing that happened to me, that happened to Thomas. So they have a manager a couple of years ago and they're like, you're going to interview with this manager so I go over very nice lady she seems fine very personable we sit down and she starts doing the theranos voice she's doing she's lowered her voice artificially and she's talking to everyone like this and I'm like okay this

0:28:12 Thomas: Life yeah all of a sudden

0:28:45 Eli: Is insane you're having a psychotic episode so I am doing the interview hey tell me a little about this and every time I am in the the middle of a conversation like there'll be a lull she'll go tell me about a time you dealt with adversity in the workplace and how you might deal with the adversity workplace here and every single person I interviewed sort of looked at her like she had just walked over the table and said that and been like oh um yeah I guess at my old job we had to do this thing what is one time you have failed in a job and what did you do to remedy that to make sure it wouldn't happen it was fucking insane she just

0:28:45 Thomas: Grows a turtleneck. Oh

0:29:22 Eli: Killed the vibe of an entire round of interviews oh

0:29:23 Tom: I will happily admit being the interviewee is an absolute nightmare. And almost nobody is good at it. Almost nobody is great at it like

0:29:34 Eli: Being interviewed oh I'm so good at being are you fucking kidding me

0:29:35 Tom: I hate like no, no. But every interview I've ever gotten, I've gotten the job offer for. Every time, well, with one exception, which I was wildly unqualified for the job. I can't even believe I got the interview. But so I kind of think about that when I think about talking to my kids. And it's like, these people have a thing that you want. So go get them to give it to you. That's what the interview is. You're showing up and you're saying, you've got something I want. That's why I'm here. If I dance in this way you'll make the offer and then I get to decide without any pressure whether I want that job or not whether that offer is good enough or not it feels insane to me to show up to an interview and then to be like nah I just I didn't get the job because I didn'T like the questions they asked that feels fucking crazy because like I will say I know some people that are really good managers that are terrible at interviewing and they would be great people to work for. So you didn't dodge a bullet. They just weren't good at that part of their job, probably because they don't have to do it very much. There's like a myth that people who do interviewing are like working for the HR side of the company or they do this all day. Most people are hiring managers, which means that like they're the manager 99 % of the time. And then now all of a sudden they've got to hire somebody and they don'T really know how to do IT. They're not particularly good at it so it's like you want something like I I stress this to the kids like you want Something get someone to offer it to you

0:30:32 Eli: Tom yeah yeah

0:31:08 Tom: Do all the things jump through all their hoops and then you get to decide like nah you know I don't want it I don' t want it

0:31:13 Thomas: That was definitely my mindset. And I don't know if it's because we had our dads and our kids have us.

0:31:20 Eli: Yeah well so I want to speak to what thomas was saying about the nihilism right because I think I feel like I'm a broken record because I know I talk about this a lot on the show but like it used to be before the internet and r slash anti -work is a fucking great example of it right that if there There was someone in your life who was like, all jobs are fucking bullshit, man, and capitalism is a stacked game. You'd be like, oh, nice. I mean, you kind of bum out the joint circle a little bit, but like, yeah, I guess Gary's got a thing or two to say about work. But then you mostly interacted with normal people, with real jobs who lived their lives and weren't doubling down in an echo space of bit. But because young people have grown up with the Internet and so much of their life is online, so much of the development where someone else should have sort of like shook their head over Gary's shoulder didn't happen.

0:32:15 Eli: They just found themselves in Internet echo chambers where adults or kids or children or Russian spies with a varying degree of irony all said the same thing. So I talk about this with global warming, and I know we've talked about this before, but like, I genuinely have students who think there will not be fresh water in 10 years.

0:32:39 Tom: 10 years yeah that's crazy it

0:32:39 Eli: In 10 years, they think that they will not able to find fresh water. Now, however concerned you are about global warming and you should be, the notion that we will not have fresh water is psychotic, right? It is a measure of of psychosis. And when you try to talk to them about it, they're like, yeah, but global warming is really bad. And it's like, no, no. We can't retreat to the mott of fucking yes, but global warming is really bed.

0:33:11 Eli: You just said there won't be fresh water in 10 years. We have to deal with that. And I think that's what happens in the job market as well, is everybody is constantly talking about how bad the job mark is and it is and how bad capitalism is and is. But if there's no one's sort of relieving the pressure of the bit you just enter this place where you're like no there literally are no jobs

0:33:11 Tom: Is right yeah yes or there's like ascent into that nihilism like like thomas was suggesting, where it's like, well, every job is bad. Well, it's like, yeah, but you still need one. That doesn't fix the problem, right? Like, I kind of hate that shit, and I won't let my kids do that stuff, because it's, like, yeah, look, I agree the system is bad, okay, but you live in the system, so kind of who cares? Like let's talk about it, but like let's get the most out of the system that we can, and the way to get the most out of the system that you can is not to just walk around saying the system is bad why bother trying we'll never you look the thing is like the chances of it going well for you are slim I acknowledge that but the chances of it going well for you with nihilism as your base response to the system is zero it's just zero like now you're just like well I'm gonna win the lottery or stare only two things that I'm gonna do

0:34:31 Thomas: Or they like live with their parents who were bought a house for $10 in 1975 and there's resentment. I get it. You know, I, this wasn't me. Like I was, I was of the mindset of, I have to fucking, if they tell me to do a backflip, I got to do backflips. I got do whatever it takes. I don't think that's healthy, but there is a certain amount that it is. That's, that's the part where I'm struggling, where it's like, I definitely Tom Gremlin in my mind, that still my dad being like, they want you to fucking suck their dick. You suck their Dick. Like you got, they're the employer. You got to whatever, like that's like literally that was my dad's attitude. And I bought into it.

0:34:40 Eli: Sucked

0:35:06 Thomas: And I honestly, I probably still buy into it the ice. I suck so many dicks. I probably still buy into that. Like, no, that's just for fun. Yeah. Don't ever bring business into that, that's our sacred time. But I don't... That's true.

0:35:06 Eli: A bunch of dicks? Wait, is this why you've been sucking my dick because we work together oh okay that was recreational okay cool okay good I'm sorry I go over our dear old dad schedule while you're doing It's the only time I know I have your full attention.

0:35:27 Thomas: I guess where I'm coming from is I think there's an amount of that attitude. Let's just call it like, broadly speaking, let's just look at it again. Nobody's strawman anybody, let's just look at the spectrum of, are you over to to the point where when harvey weinstein is your interviewer he can fucking do anything in an abusive way because he's the boss or are you the person who's like hey so tell me about your past work experience oh fuck you man

0:35:51 Eli: Not even going to bother.

0:35:51 Thomas: I'm out of here you know and and like like that's a spectrum that I I think that certainly both ends of it are terrible I think we were historically too close to the harveyweinstein end of it and I don't totally know what the right amount is because because I'm pretty lefty. And I think that this, I think the country has failed people. I think that like, there's a certain amount of this where I'm like, the country is fucking failed people and it's not like I'm saying it's good for people to respond in that way per se, but it's sort of like the country does the system sort of deserves this in a way that I think is maybe necessary. Like maybe people do need to just stop fucking taking job, like, fuck it. You know, it's so bad. Like the the ratio of salaries and wages to fucking rent is it's unsustainable I just think there's a bunch of people who live with their boomer parents probably who are like well do I bust my ass to try to get that 14 an hour job when a sandwich is 14 so I make one sandwich an hour or do I just fucking all right I'll just fucking live in the parents basement a little longer because fuck it

0:36:55 Tom: But I guess like here's what I would offer to that like you almost certainly don't live in your boomer parents basement right like if you're a young person looking for a job you are probably living in your millennial parents basement. That's just how, yeah, 100%. Yeah. My wife is a millennial. My kids are in their beginning their 20s. That is how the generations actually have shaken out. So you are probably living in the basement of your millennial parent, right? Yeah. And that is actually two generations off. And I think that that is an important distinction. I guess

0:37:08 Thomas: Jesus really that's fair. I had the years a little off Nah, Gen X doesn't exist this. That's not a real, that's not a real one.

0:37:31 Tom: I have always approached, and maybe this is my failing too, right? Like I've never personally not needed work. The idea of not having a job, I've always had a job. I've Never had a day's unemployment since I was 14 years old. Not one 24 hour period have I been unemployed. Yeah.

0:37:49 Thomas: Not since the mines, the first day in the fucking coal mines.

0:37:53 Tom: And like, that's not good. Right. So let me put this out there. That's not Good.

0:37:56 Thomas: Quick, quick clarification, and then I'll let you keep, I wasn't actually thinking about young people, and I get that it's gonna skew toward that, but I think there are a lot of people who have been in dead-end shitty jobs who are my age. That attitude is still for them, too. Like, I think they're kind of job -to -job. Go ahead.

0:38:10 Tom: Yeah no. Yeah but that's a distinction I was kind of going to drive to. So I come to it always from this place of kind of like financial existentialism, right? I've never not been desperate to have a job. The idea of being unemployed frightens me at a level that I can't even express to you. So that's not good. That's bad, right. I understand that that's socially driven pathology that I've absorbed and I don't want my kids to absorb that. But I do think that there's two kind of different scenarios that are at play if you thomas or I or somebody else who has work were to go and show up to an interview and you're not in this like financially existential moment having an interviewer ask you a stupid question you being like you know I just can't fucking deal with this right now and behaving that way you kind of got the privilege to do it but I think like as parents when we're thinking about like helping young people navigate a work environment where it's like you kind of have to tell them like you're going to be asked difficult and awkward and plainly stupid questions. And I think it's fair to tell them. And here's why. Because the job of interviewing is really hard because if you've got to interview 30 people for something, you're not going to ask 30 individually tailored questions. You're going to ask them sort of broad questions to try to get a sense of who people are. They're probably stupid questions, expect them to be stupid. And the point is to be creative and personable. And if if the kids understand that that's what they're going in for, I think that they'll have more success. Like they'll Have a better output at

0:39:46 Tom: The end of that. Right. And I think that's What we want for the kids, because I also worry about the burning bridges effect. You don't know that person that you stared at for 15 seconds and like they felt awkward and they're like, that dude sucks. They might be your boss in five years. You don'T know what industry they're Going to hop into or, you know, like so treating everything when you are the the one asking as a young person to build a life, treating it like you've kind of got like a chip on your shoulder. That's a bad call. I think just from a practical perspective.

0:39:49 Thomas: I agree. I agree. Yeah.

0:40:16 Eli: Yeah. And to answer Thomas's question about sort of like the realism of it, like I think it's a real situation, right? Capitalism is bad. The job market is bad, but if that's what you're talking about when it's time for you to get a job, your focus is in the wrong place, right. If that's what you're talking about, no, for sure.

0:40:32 Thomas: Well, no, you're not talking about it. I'm just saying it's motivating your.

0:40:36 Eli: But that's the thing. If it motivates you so much that the answer that you give is, fuck it, I'll live with my parents, then 10 years down the road when you still live with your parents and none of your goal, when was the point where you took responsibility? And the truth is, like, it is okay to look at systems in the larger sense and take larger actions, right? Vote, write your senator, arrange planned protests, right, there are all sorts of ways to change the world. World quitting has never been one of them right nihilism has never been oneof them and I think a lot of people use the realities of systematic iniquity to be nihilistic which doesn't help anyone themselves included right

0:41:23 Tom: Here's why I think that's exactly the right take. Somebody still got that job. It just wasn't you now. So it's not like you changed anything by showing up and like being a shit about it. Right? You didn't, it's like that person was like, Oh my God, now nobody will take my job. They still still hired somebody they got somebody somebody else got that and like even if you didn't want it and quit it fucking get the offer yes

0:41:46 Thomas: Yeah, that's fair.

0:41:46 Eli: One might argue the system is significantly worse because you a person who is aware of the iniquities are now not part of the company to make it better the education space fucking sucks, but I'm in the education space because I want to make the education space better, right?

0:42:03 Thomas: Yeah and I also think that people maybe now coming on the other end of it, I think people don't realize how like it's one thing if you're trying to get a corporate job with a faceless, nameless, you know, inhuman corporation that that might be a different story but when it comes to just like kind of businesses of which there's dwindling numbers but still If you're just trying to interview somewhere that's, that's not, no, I'm not even talking like mom and pop, but it's kind of a local place as kind of a small business, whatever. There's so much discretion involved in that to a degree that I don't think people realize like you could get a job and become valuable to them and just get raises. Like they're just, there's nobody, nobody's in charge. There's no set rules for like small businesses. Like it's interesting. The people who are really savvy and competent can just all of a sudden, like, like I remember remember you'll hear stories of people being like, yeah, they asked for a raise. Man, I didn't give them a giant fucking raise because I can't lose that person. You know, it's like that is also a possibility for your own life in a way that like setting the system aside, you can try to do that and people are successful with that.

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0:43:16 Eli: There's One other thing that I want to speak to here that sort of is part and parcel of that, which is that whenever you bring that up, people bring up privilege, right, well, they're like, well Tom, the only reason you've gotten your job is because of privilege, Eli, because I'm in the same boat, right when I got my first job when I was 14, I have not had a single day without a job since then, right and privilege absolutely contributes to that conversation, but if it is the end of the conversation for you you are incorrect you are misinterpreting how privilege works you are using privilege as an excuse and you are actually making the experience worse for people who are disadvantaged you are actively encouraging disadvantaged people not to change the system not to make it better not to try that's nihilism and it is I would argue it is almost as big a part of the problem as privilege

0:44:08 Tom: I would add to that because I 100 agree with that like you will never gain access to power by purposely impoverishing yourself that is never going to work for you right so the system is bad privilege is real it is the thing that dramatically weights the scale. But if you are constantly in your own way because you're living in a world, I do tell the kids this, like there's a word that I won't even let my mind think of and that word is fair. I do not like the word. I don't let myself think about that word. I've eliminated that word from my internal vocabulary and my own personal moral calculus. I think it really is. No, I honestly believe this. Like like fair gets in the way. Yeah. I think the idea of fairness when applied to you personally is something that almost always hurts you and gets in a way and does so so much more often than it will help you and allow you to move forward with with joy or even with neutrality. So like fair has to go. We don't have a fair system. We don'T live in a fair world. Fair outcomes should not be the thing that we expect. And if we don't expect fairness, then we can deal more adroitly with what actually occurs rather than deal with the space between what we expect and what's right and what actually happened.

0:44:44 Thomas: Healthy, healthy. Yeah. Yeah, I know. I don't doubt your sincerity.

0:44:45 Eli: Itself cool chill normal yeah

0:45:32 Tom: Because if we're constantly living in that second space, we are constantly hurting ourselves. That's who's getting hurt in that process. Us. Right?

0:45:39 Eli: Well And if the only system you're ever willing to participate in is one that is fair you have checked out of

0:45:46 Tom: Yes. Thank you. A hundred percent. So like there are ways to recognize inequity and we

0:45:53 Thomas: Don't tempt me with a good time.

0:45:54 Eli: Life well

0:45:54 Tom: Should and we should, but we can't personalize it in ways where fairness intersects with our feelings and our expectations. And that's what I mean by that word. So I think that that's a, that's big part of like kind of the lessons that I do try to talk to at least the older kids about. And it's something that I've like worked on in myself for a long time, because there's a lot of things that happen in your life that won't be fair and if fair is something that you expect then fairness is going to be a space where you're just hurt more often than not unless you get real lucky yes

0:46:26 Eli: And it's also it's an ever dwindling series of of livelihoods because here's the thing if the hill you die on is the u .s job system is broken and that's why I can't get a job and capitalism has ruined America, which we all agree about, right? Then what can the child in the slums of Mumbai say to you, right, because then then you then you have this ever dwindling thing until we get to the person who is suffering the most in the world. And that person is the only one who is allowed to give up and everyone else is obligated to raise them up. What I want to emphasize about this is not a denial of privilege. Everyone on this podcast believes in privilege. Everyone in this podcast understands unfairness and societal problems, but it only gets better if people who are aware of those problems commit to making them better. And you never make them better with nihilism. There has never ever in the history of the world been anything that's gotten better because everyone agreed to give up about it.

0:46:40 Tom: Yes 100 that's exactly right

0:47:27 Clip: DEAR OLD DADS

0:47:33 Eli: All right, gentlemen, before we go, I actually got fired from the Viagra factory after I was accused of stealing guess they don't want hard workers

0:47:44 Tom: Man I didn't

0:47:45 Thomas: Phoebe had 104.5 fever. Fever.

0:48:40 Tom: Put dishes in anyone's bed this is just a thing that happened around me man

0:48:45 Eli: Wait, is this why you've been sucking my