DOD237: How Many Net Productivity Units Are Your Friendships Providing

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad, that's my thing I know now what I can offer you that no one else can Complete and under-dependent I'm a man, I'm sensitive I need to feel loved, I need part of being a father that I enjoy

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that just needs an excuse. I'm Tom Curry. I am joined, as always, by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:38 Thomas: I don't know what that means. I'm going to do another I have head trauma and forgot what the topic is. What is that? Can't wait to find out along with you all listeners. Yeah.

0:00:45 Tom: It is a not -so -subtle lead -in to the topic. I promise. I do try to make them reasonably thematic.

0:00:50 Eli: Do you guys think listeners will be mad at us when it's eventually revealed that Thomas has terrible early -onset dementia? I think they're gonna be mad. When they're like, he didn't remember what episodes were about 40 seconds after you had sighed them. Yeah.

0:01:00 Thomas: Yeah, but once we announce Tom also does No, that's fair I do dudes I have a fucking crazy day today and the only reason I'm going to talk about it is because it is family related it is like related to topics we talk about on the show so we're of course going to QED as we're recording we're flying out tomorrow and I already hate it and I'm as in I can't wait to be at QED I hate the fact that I have to fly for 32 fucking hours whatever God God knows how long it is I don't function on planes I don'T sleep on planes it's agony to me the difference between the people like Lydia who sleep on a plane and the people like me who can't I might as well be in hell for a while and then she comes out of it's like oh how are you how are You doing I'm like I literally went through a trauma yeah like I'm Like it's it's well oh it's Like um fucking the space movie with the god nolan where they where they they go to the planet and then the guys exactly and then The guy is like it's been 25 years or whatever it's that remember

0:01:48 Eli: She sleeps through hell. Space Jam 2. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:02:05 Thomas: The relativity thing where the guy turns old on the ship. That's exactly what it is. Where she'll wake up and I'll be like, oh, oh it's so nice to see you. So nice to lay eyes upon you one last time during

0:02:15 Eli: That's my girl. I promised I'd see her when I got home. And she's like I had a dream about a dolphin and you're like cool so I'm a person who doesn't sleep on planes but can I say and this might be like a depressing insight tom I've seen you fall asleep okay just for for clarity for anyone who is like oh I'm team tom we were once getting ready to do a live show in chicago and tom sat in his chair on stage before the audience came in and fell fell asleep a little.

0:02:25 Tom: I don't understand that.

0:02:30 Thomas: The show.

0:02:50 Eli: I'm not saying he was fully unconscious. I've saying his eyes were closed. And when we said his name, he started upwards because

0:02:50 Tom: Okay, I don' t remember that because I was asleep.

0:03:00 Thomas: I didn't get to talk about my day but eli we can only go one again christopher nolan level into the fucking inception so go ahead stay on the eli inception level what are you gonna say

0:03:00 Eli: You were asleep. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So I was saying, I also don't sleep on planes, but I like it because it's the only time in my life when nobody needs anything from me. Cause anybody who's like Eli, I really need you to like, I'm like, nah, I'm on a plane and I didn't pay for the wifi. I guess I've got to play all these these video games I keep buying. Yeah.

0:03:19 Tom: I love that about flying.

0:03:23 Thomas: Wow wow that's awesome so we're trying to obviously cram a lot in as we always are so we have obviously this dad's recording that we're doing now and then we're like okay we're We're trying to get ahead on OA, like the video. So we're going to do two fucking back -to -back YouTube video recordings. And then I realized, this is a family tie -in, I realized my sister has been, they've been telling me about, and actually my nephew has been telling me, has been talking to me about about his water polo team thing, which is a sport that didn't exist at the high, he goes to the high school I went to, but it didn't exists back then. So it's kind of cool to be like, oh, we got a new, new sport, you know, water polo. They, I guess, had money to build a pool or some shit. I don't know. We didn't have.

0:04:11 Tom: Does he get to be Marco, or does he have to be one of the Polos?

0:04:14 Thomas: Yeah, we had two rattlesnakes to rub together. That's all we had back when I was at that high school. We did have the nice theater building. I've told it before because the crazy kid burned down the previous building. We got the insurance money and the high school built a nice theater. But that's the only reason we had that.

0:04:28 Tom: And they never caught you. Just

0:04:31 Thomas: And so they've been saying, oh, try to see Waterpolo. I'm like, I would love that. Let's try to see water polo. Can't wait. Naturally, I'm trying. Oh, can't make it. Lydia was able to make it a one, but it was during when I had something and then they're like, well, last one. And I was like, what? Last one? That was five seconds ago that you said that. That was also, I just held you in my arms like a baby four minutes ago. He's a senior in high school. And I'm like, What? I just, I just held you in my arms he's the it's it's crazy how fast time goes and I realized oh shit as a fucking I'm a deadbeat uncle if that's a thing like I've I've like oh I'm so busy and time has gone so fast that this person's whole life has gone by and they're there is seen they're graduating this year I have not like I barely seen them my nephew and I'm like oh that is such a fucking bummer and so we already had like a concert we were supposed to go to that we bought tickets to to forever ago that I'm going to with my brother and Lydia. And I was like, I think I have to miss that to go to this water polo thing, or I'm gonna try to like go and just be an hour late to the concert. So I have the most insane day imaginable. And I love that like what will happen is if I make it and I'm trying to make it, I'll go to the water pola and be like, oh, cool. And they'll be like I move my whole life around to do that. And it doesn't count for much and it shouldn't count for much. But I sort of did it at least. You know what I mean? Like it's it's kind of like Like I want to make the effort and I'm going to, but I also pre feel like it won't even really matter a whole lot because I haven't been there enough anyway. You know, it's sad. I don't know. What do you think?

0:06:05 Tom: Write him a letter and say, hey, you know, I don't love you. It's a short letter. I never really did. You're a nephew. You it don't really count this

0:06:10 Thomas: No, just be like, hey, if you grow up and are not a Trumper, talk to me. I'm counting on one of her kids to be queer in some way. And that one will talk to you. You know what I mean? Like they're Trumpers.

0:06:22 Tom: Is why I'm so glad that I don't have any real like extended family or like I can barely keep up with the kids that live here I can't imagine trying to keep genuinely I cannot imagine being like an active uncle in somebody's life or like godfather to someone's kid like I got four kids and I'm always like yeah I'm real sorry I didn't care more

0:06:29 Thomas: So yeah, yeah, yep.

0:06:43 Eli: You're that to your own kids.

0:06:43 Tom: Can I write you a check you know I don' t

0:06:44 Eli: Yeah. Okay. So what I'm picturing though, is that that whole thing that Thomas just said to us, he's saying it to a wet child who barely knows him after their water polo men. Right. He's just sort of shaking. He's got like a laptop under one arm and he's like, yeah, so I don't know. I don'T even, I DON'T know if I even really cared or like whatever. So if you ever turn that gate and they're like, uncle Thomas, right?

0:07:08 Thomas: Yeah, yep. Oh, boy. It's rough. Oh, my God. We used to go to, we used to go to all the Christmases.

0:07:10 Eli: We met at christmas a couple years ago take

0:07:16 Tom: Know to christmas yeah you don't go to christmus anymore yeah

0:07:18 Thomas: Well, Trump is a big part of it. We kind of do. But like, I don't know. For one, we all got families.

0:07:23 Eli: Me there take me to

0:07:25 Thomas: Well, we, we were going, here's what I mean by kind of. We were going to this year and then Arlo puked in the night before. And we're like, well, yep. Well, they were going to come over there. It was nice. They were goingto come over to do music. I was so excited because we have a little Smith family band. Sometimes that's the one thing we still do. And in my mind, that's like an active, cool thing we do. We've probably done it twice in five years, you know, like it's and it's probably like I just from time to time, I think about like, oh, what is this like from a kid's perspective? What is this? Like from one of her kids perspectives, one of my kids perspectives. And it's like, Oh yeah, there's that uncle. Could we see like three times in my life now you know and I'm just like god it's such a bummer because to me I'm once again the guy in the ship who no I don't know which one I am in this situation they're the guy on the ship I just left that's right now I get to be the other thing I just went to the ocean planet and I am like oh yeah no I saw you yesterday and they are like no it's been 30 years man I'm a grown ass man now I'm like fuck man that was yesterday to me it's crazy oh

0:07:33 Tom: Now we're not going anywhere see I feel like you've got to set curry level family expectations I remember I told the story where I

0:08:30 Thomas: They don't have expectations they do not have this is all me this is me doing this they don't have any

0:08:34 Tom: Told the story about trying to help my dad fix his it stuff like a while back right and so when I talked to him a little while after that he said this was in september august or september he said well it's all right you can take a look at it when you're here for christmas like he also understands he won't see me until he's like yeah you came out one other time than christmas this year that's not happening again in the next four months he gets he's not even being shitty when he He says it. He's like, yeah.

0:08:47 Thomas: Expectations I'm just laughing at him being like yeah I don't need the internet until then patron only story everybody

0:09:01 Eli: Kinda I'll get around to it what I need is a post ah you beat me to it that's exactly what I need is someone to brace my hand

0:09:02 Tom: Yeah. I got a squirrel to shoot.

0:09:11 Thomas: And where can they avoid the auto ads and hear delightful denethor tomato stories about tom's dad

0:09:16 Eli: Why over at our Patreon only section hey we use this section to complain about the auto ads every week but why not talk about the good sides of things first of all you help continue us to live which is first and foremost the most important thing but you get extended commercial free bonus versions of every show you get little bonus episodes on there and you get all of it over at patreon.com/dearolddads like trump's presidency to Thomas' family. Rip into it! Bam, bam, bam. That was the Thomas family band that played that music there at the end.

0:09:29 Thomas: A crime no it's good yeah

0:10:04 Ad: [Ad break 1 — ad music]

0:10:06 Thomas: I missed it. Did he actually advertise our Patreon or somebody else's this time? Oh, nice. Wow. Well done. He had to like tattoo it on his arm to be able to remember. Yeah. Oh, my God.

0:10:09 Eli: I did ours this time. I did yours. I was listening to last week's show.

0:10:11 Tom: I love that you had to check. You're like, I wasn't listening. I tuned him out. I just, yeah,

0:10:15 Eli: I do, yeah. No, I have a memento thing. Yeah, it says, you've never changed anyone's mind on one arm, and then on the other arm it says forward slash dear old dads.

0:10:23 Tom: Oh my God. I fucking love that.

0:10:25 Thomas: That's really good. I need those. Yeah, I know. Shit. It unironically yep wow

0:10:31 Tom: Actually, you

0:10:31 Eli: So I have a problem which is and I promise we'll get to our actual topic eventually uh but I have problem which that I there is a really really really talented tattoo artist next door to my barber and every time I go to my barbers that dude has a tattoo in the window that's like hey eli this would be a good

0:10:54 Thomas: You don't have any right yeah me neither

0:10:54 Tom: Should get a tattoo. Too eli you should get a tattoo eli

0:10:56 Eli: Tattoo zero I am blemishless beautiful

0:10:59 Thomas: Tom has all the tattoos for both of

0:11:01 Tom: You gotta get a tattoo

0:11:02 Eli: Yeah first of all like a couple of months. So a couple months ago he had a candle burning at both ends, which I fucking love. It's based on one of my, one of my favorite poems. Yeah. And then this week he had one in typewriter font that just said time is a thief, but it was like old style typewriter font and it

0:11:03 Tom: What would you get

0:11:09 Thomas: Us damn it that's oh man that is good I gotta get that

0:11:10 Tom: Oh my god wait if you don't get that I'm getting that okay I'm covering my body in these

0:11:23 Eli: Gets more and more faded as it goes. And just all of them are fucking bad. I mean, he's also got some that are just like, which is just tattoos, I guess. But like, he's always got got one in there that I'm like ah I feel like you and I read the same books

0:11:26 Thomas: Holy shit damn dude have you ever talked to this guy or is it just your window shopping oh wow

0:11:38 Tom: Oh like yeah you

0:11:38 Eli: No no I haven't even seen him I just look in his window and go I want that that's

0:11:44 Thomas: Might be a woman you don'T even know sexist that's true damn it you got uno

0:11:47 Eli: True might not be a woman at all might be a person of non -binary identification bigot I win oh

0:11:56 Thomas: Reversed yeah

0:11:53 Tom: Okay you seriously need to send me pictures of these tattoo ideas though those are so fucking good

0:11:59 Eli: They're so good yeah

0:11:59 Thomas: I'm actually like so lydia is considering getting attached to you I think she wants to get attached to you neither of us have any no neither of us have and it's interesting because and and obviously I'm fully supportive except that the only thing is like okay but it's got to be a really good artist and has to be good you know know that's the one thing where I'm like you can't get like a shitty one like that's the only that's my only rule on this you know I know obviously you do you but like I want to look good I whatever you know whatever that takes and it's like a little weird because since we are people with no tattoos we have no idea what that is really maybe she knows better than me but now I'm thinking like trip to the boss let's go finally meet this long lost lover of yours this this uh this person that you clearly have a

0:12:06 Tom: Does she have tattoos oh no she doesn't oh you guys should get tattoos when you're your QED.

0:12:43 Thomas: Connection well I No, I'm saying go to New Jersey to this actual guy. That's because you want more of those tattoos for you, Tom. Tom's trying to just keep those tattoos for himself, the greedy bastard.

0:12:46 Tom: Yeah, but I'm saying fuck that. I'm saying get a QED tattoo.

0:12:48 Eli: Just go into a a random tattoo place in Manchester,

0:12:53 Tom: Oh, come on. Come on. Go get some fucking random Manchester tattoos and maybe Hep C.

0:13:04 Eli: Mantoo's.

0:13:04 Thomas: Yeah, those sound great though.

0:13:04 Tom: Probably also Hep C at the same time. Just Mantus. Oh that's fucking great. Yeah, I'm fucking in love with those ideas. That's fucking terrific. Holy shit.

0:13:09 Eli: Yeah, they're great. And they're all interesting and cool. Like everything is good. I mean, again, some of it's just like, but like

0:13:15 Thomas: But okay, let's talk tattoos. Do you ever just think like, yeah, that's great, but it could also just be a meme that you share. You know, does it? I'm always like, no, that'd be great. That's great. It could, or like a picture, you could get a picture in your house of that or a like a frame so you know what I mean that's and then this is not judgmental this is me being like every time I think about a tattoo like I actually think tattoos look great on people I don't I think other people it's great but for me every time like oh that could be cool I'm like yeah or I could just like print that shit out just like have it on my wall oh

0:13:45 Eli: Every time I've ever made a choice in my life where I was like, this is very meaningful and I'm taking myself seriously. The universe has conspired to make me look as ridiculous as possible. So there's no chance that I don't go in, get a tattoo from this guy. And then he like poots himself to death on Twitter the next day. He's like, I just finished doing Eli Bosnick's tattoo. And now I'm going to try and juggle these chainsaws.

0:13:54 Thomas: Man I feel that feel that or like everyone turns out he's been giving people like nazi tattoos and he's outed for that is like anyone who would go to this tattoo parlor is the

0:14:22 Tom: But that's the thing it's nobody knows like you know just nobody has to know where you went you know it's fine

0:14:22 Thomas: Way no

0:14:22 Eli: I like Taylor's necklace. You know what I think about a lot? Cause you guys know about Taylor Swift's Nazi necklace. So there's this great, it's, Oh, this is a very real thing. And it makes me so fucking happy. So Google Taylor Swift, Nazi necklace, cause it's important. You look at this. So Taylor Swift put out one of her majillion necklace, fucking

0:14:33 Thomas: Is This is a very real thing that's definitely very real yeah here we go

0:14:38 Tom: All right fire up the Yik Yak we gotta all

0:14:50 Eli: Whatever's right. And the people on the TikTok again, we, I know we talked, we ranted about the internet a lot last year. So I'm going to try and avoid doing it now.

0:14:52 Thomas: They're called albums last year last

0:14:59 Eli: People on the TikTok noticed that the lightning bolts kind of look like the lightning volts from the SS. And so they were like, Taylor Swift is a Nazi. And so she took the necklace down and everybody's fighting with each other. She's not a Nazi, she is a Nazi. That's boring. What's not boring is this. They sold a couple hundred thousand of that necklace before they took it down, which means right now there's a teenage boy somewhere we're in america good kid his girlfriend likes taylor swift he saw that and he was like I bet she'd like that click buy bought it with his fucking auto hut money that he earns and now it's just sitting there in his room and he's like I'm not a nazi but I do want to give janina her necklace and I think if I could explain to her that I bought it before people thought it was Nazi symbology, that would be great.

0:15:04 Thomas: Episode uh here we yeah yeah yeah oh collector's item

0:15:55 Tom: Right what it sucks too because like kids don't have enough money be like throw that away oh yeah it's like I got a gift that's pretty much gotta be good because I can't get another one can't go tell my dad like dad I bought some nazi shit by accident and I don't want to put it with your

0:16:09 Thomas: He's too busy eating tomatoes yeah you gotta listen to patreon .com slash dnd minus to hear

0:16:19 Tom: Damn it god damnit it's our livelihood way

0:16:23 Thomas: We had a we actually believe it or not we had a topic for this show listeners oh man yeah once again you caught me stalling

0:16:25 Tom: To topic yeah we have another uh another tiktok for you to play time because I know it's a your favorite thing is to play TikToks No,

0:16:34 Clip: A lot of self-help stuff geared towards guys is like cut out your friends if they don't help you achieve your goals. And I don't know how to put this more simply to you, friends is the goal. Hanging out with your buddies is not a distraction, it is the cornerstone of life. Napoleon was able to conquer all that land because he didn't let friends distract him. No man, Napoleon conquered all that land because he didn't have enough friends to hang out with. I guarantee if you get me, Napoleon, and five guys in a Buffalo Wild Wings, by the end of it, he'll be like, this is way better than the Iberian Peninsula. Oh, but hanging out with your friends will get in the way of you making a billion dollars. Hey, man, stop being weird. You can come to Buffalo Wildwings, but don't say stuff like that because you're freaking people out. We're all at a table daring Rob to take his shirt off, and if he gets another IPA in him, he might do it. So when I hear weird influencers be like, you shouldn't be happy until you make 10 million dollars, I'm always like, brother, what are you ordering at Buffalo Wild Wings?

0:17:39 Thomas: Great that's good I like that

0:17:41 Eli: You know, we talked so much about unhealthy masculinity and the sort of trap of it last week that I thought it'd be interesting to talk about sort of healthy masculinity this week and forming friendships, the importance of it. And I also had an experience that I wanted to share and talk about. So I have a group of magic friends, which both of you know. You've both met them in various combinations over the times. I once forced First, Tom was to drink an entire bottle of balsamic vinaigrette in front of them because the bottle was open on the table. God, it was so good. It was good. Tom, do you know this story?

0:18:06 Thomas: Oh man so fun I will never forget it that's like three thomases ago but I still appreciate it it was a better thomas ago oh he eli's told it on the show but it's been like since the beginning of time I think so worth repeating

0:18:18 Tom: What? I was probably just gently sleeping

0:18:25 Eli: So I go, whenever someone comes to visit me in New York and they want to go to Italy, I take them to this restaurant called La Mela. And you're like, Eli, is that because La Mera's food is good? No. Is that because the service is fast? No. Here's why I take people to La Mala. When I was 20 and I was broke, I ate at La Mela. I thought I had money on my debit card to pay and it got declined. Like I just did my math wrong and it Got declined. And I was like, Oh, hey, I'm really sorry. And he was like you have cash and I I was like, no, that's like all the money I have in the world. Can I do dishes or something? And he goes, the guy looks at me and he goes are you a good boy? And I was, like, oh, this is about to fucking suck. Right, you know, I'm about to be someone's gimp. Right, exactly. And I, was ,like, yes? And he, was like when you have the money you come back, you pay me. And I just left. And I came back and I paid him when I had the money

0:19:03 Thomas: Yeah you're gonna die yeah

0:19:06 Tom: Oh yeah You're gonna blow this guy Yeah

0:19:19 Thomas: Because you're a good boy yeah

0:19:19 Eli: And now as a tribute to him I bring people there and they're, like this isn't very good. And I'm, like yeah, but a guy was nice to me once so fucking eat it the other thing they do is that when you order wine they bring wine for the table and you're probably thinking is it nice wine no tom it's balsamic

0:19:35 Thomas: Yeah it's the worst very bad

0:19:35 Eli: Vinaigrette one second before they slap the label on but because thomas comes from the snake people he was like I'm not letting this wine go to waste yes

0:19:44 Thomas: This is again three thomases ago this is a while ago

0:19:47 Eli: And so thomas drinks I'm gonna say and again if you know if you've been to like Olive Garden, you know what those fucking grande bottles are. He drinks, I'm going to say half of this grande bottle because the rest of us taste it and are like, eh, that's awful.

0:19:59 Thomas: Oh my god it was so bad yep you know yeah except whoever the fuck was like yeah get open another one I'm like no don't don't open and no no and then and it was like as we were leaving, basically. And so I was like, well, we got something we just opened at. I should finish something. Little do I know, he's like, oh, no, I'll just fucking put some saran wrap on that and save it for, you know, next week.

0:20:09 Eli: Please don't open another one. La Mela did not have the same attitude.

0:20:25 Thomas: Like, oh! I've been drinking literal fucking bullshit. Leftover fucking shit from the last people, victims that Eli brought here.

0:20:35 Eli: A hundred percent. No fucking question. They probably had their mouth on the edge of the bottle for all we know. So point is this friend group that I have, I haven't gotten to see them a lot this year because I'm podcasting and I'm also teaching, which has sort of maxed me out for all of my time, which is, I, can I say is a really freeing experience. Like I know you guys are actually busy and so it has not been fun for you, but like, I really have a problem saying no to people. And this year I haven'T been able to say anything, but no people are like, Hey man, man, we'd love to see you. And I'm like too fucking bad.

0:21:07 Eli: Like, it's just, I got nothing for you. But we finally got together, finally got together with this friend group and it was so wonderful. I turned into mom. I kept taking pictures like grandma. I kept being like everybody in the photo because I was so happy. I forgot that the like work happy wasn't the same as friends happy. Right. Cause you know, when you're like on a fucking roll and you've been working for like six hours in a row and then you hit your stride in that seventh hour. That's a kind of happy. It's a kind of feel good. And I had been substituting that for positive emotions for so long that when I was sitting around laughing with people in person, I was like, but when, when do I write a sketch?

0:21:49 Tom: Yeah.

0:21:49 Eli: When do I create another syllabus? I don't understand.

0:21:53 Thomas: You get a positive feeling from work? I don't even get that.

0:21:57 Eli: Oh, I get such dude. There's nothing I love more than honestly, like if you talk about like dream vegan, I think what would you do with rest is a really interesting question because it tells you so much about a person and like I'm on vacation right now the minute we finish this it'll be my last recording for the week of qed and then all the way until the the following Monday I don't have anything to do and what I am looking forward to doing with that time is like focusing in and working on my lectures for school because work gives me that but like I genuinely love working but it is not a substitute for social social relationships

0:22:16 Thomas: Must be nice.

0:22:34 Tom: Yeah. And I think like the thing I when you said like the thing about like writing a sketch, I immediately thought when you're at work, the reason that people like you at work is because every day you show some value to them, right? Like you have a constant like you have to perform, right. That's what jobs are. Jobs are performance. You get a performance review at a job. A job is saying I'm here to demonstrate some value to you. I will make your day better, your life easier. I'll solve a problem for you. I'll make you some money, whatever it is that you're doing. When you're just hanging out with friends, you don't have to be anything. You don't have to earn anything. You don't have to show some fucking value to that person beyond just, I also enjoy you. And that's it. And that' s enough. And That' s the whole thing. That's a weird, I will tell you, like, it' s hard to switch gears when you' ve been going a hundred miles an hour in one direction action. And then all of a sudden you're just trying to be friends. Cecil and I run into this and we do a really good job, I think, of getting around it. But like 99 % of the hanging out that Cecil I do is doing the show. So I see Cecil every Thursday. I go to his house. We'll bullshit for about 25 or 30 minutes and catch up with each other. Then we do the show and then I immediately have to leave. I've got other stuff I've gotta do. So we rarely, rarely socialize outside of of doing the show. But maybe once or twice a year, we'll find time to go out to dinner together. And the first maybe half hour, 45 minutes, we talk about the show or we talk about podcasting. And then it takes us a while to sort of get out of that mode because this is the space that our friendship has carved out, is this work -related space.

0:24:17 Tom: And it takes time for us and we've been friends for 30 years now and it still takes us time to sort of like shake our heads like and like come to our senses and clear the fucking work fog and be like actually I love you as a person and that's why we do the show we forget about that sometimes and like it's easy to confuse your work friends with real friends real real easy and it's It's real easy to confuse the sort of social interaction because you're laughing with a colleague with the same kind of easy, like kind of unencumbered laughter that you get with somebody that you just care for. And that's the extent of your relationship with them. Like that's a challenging space when you're, especially when you'RE a middle -aged person where most of your life is defined by work.

0:25:05 Eli: Yeah I think it's why so many men rot for lack of a better turn is like especially because that work will eventually go away unless you have a heart attack in your office that work does eventually get taken away and when I think about like so many of the dads that got taken in by fox news and trumpism and stuff I think a big part of that is they didn't have a self -definition and then fox news was the first thing to offer it to them Yeah,

0:25:36 Ad: [Ad break 2 — ad music]

0:25:38 Tom: There's this idea that like the happiness curve of your Life. I don't know if you guys have heard of this. The happiness curve of a person's life typically has highs in the 20s, lows in the 30s and 40s, and then starts to go back up when you get out of your 40s into your later part of your life. And a big part of that reason is that space in your 30sand 40s. It's your workspace. It's when you've got young kids, you're working. Yeah, yeah.

0:26:02 Eli: Young. I was going to say it's the fucking young kids valley. Right.

0:26:06 Tom: You're building your career so you're not yet comfortable in your career, which means that you're working hard in order to sort of like build a reputation, a relationship, move up in the world to where you can actually be a little more comfortable and not have to work so hard for every dollar that you get. You've got young kids, which is just an immense amount of work. You probably have a young relationship. And during that time, people's social connections fall off. They socialize less in that dip period, that 30s and 40s. It's really hard to make friends in your your 30s and 40s it's hard to keep friends and to connect and then as those kids get older and you also at the same time your career sort of like levels off and it's not this fucking insane grind all the time fingers crossed I think that's what people tell me might happen then it is easier and life starts to get a lot better because those social connections all start to come back a lot of people that I think where they go down in that valley and then it never comes back up those are hire, they fucking die because they have no idea to your point that you like, they don't know who they are. Their entire self -definition has been, well, I wake up and I grind all the time. And the value that I show to other people is in what I provide and what I offer. And now I've earned all this ability to take my rest and I have no ID who I am.

0:27:23 Tom: And I don't have social connections and I don't what value I am to other People. Right.

0:27:23 Eli: And I don't have any hobbies and I don'T and I haven't really like been a partner to my spouse in such a long time because we were just sort of at best we were teammates raising our children together and just, you know, fucking handed the baton of our children back and forth. And now they're like a stranger with totally different values and totally different friends than me because that's a big part of it too is that women are much better at dealing with this than men are so they make friends and create community while children are being raised and I know it's because men are often in work environments yada yada but like women tend not to make this mistake and so when men emerge from the workplace they're, like, who the fuck is Suzanne? It's, like oh Suzanne is who I got any kind of emotional connection with while you were at the office pulling 12 hours.

0:28:13 Tom: I'll share a story. So like, like when Haley had had little kids. She would tell me like stories like when she, I didn't know her when she had little kids, right? So by the time Haley and I met, Aislinn was six. She's not really a little kid at that point. She was kind of moving out of that space. Donovan was 10, 11 years old. But when Haley was a stay -at -home mom, she would, with some of the other friends of hers that were stay -At -Home moms, they would go grocery shopping together. They would take their kids to the park together. There were opportunities for her to socialize with people without also having to provide value to those people. And there's a lot of problems with being a stay -at -home mom. I'm not saying it's a great space. I know that it can be a very lonely space. So I totally get that. But I am pointing out, I'm not

0:28:53 Eli: What Tom is saying is you have it easy.

0:28:56 Tom: Saying that. I am saying that the relationships that you have, if you are conscious of keeping and maintaining them, the relationships that you get to have in that space have nothing to do with the value that you provide. But all of your workplace relationships do and people quit or they get fired and then all of a sudden they're not your friend anymore think about how many times people have had like a work wife and a work husband and a best friend at work and then that person moves on and they're like yeah I don't talk to that person anymore and you're like that person was never close to you that person was not an actual friend of yours because you didn't put any effort and neither did they into keeping up with that you were just rats in the same cage and that's what you have mistaken for For your deepest social connections.

0:28:56 Eli: You just get to hang out all day. Turn on the TV. Kids love it. Yeah.

0:29:42 Eli: Or worse, like that person gets fired or they don't get fired, but you think maybe you can be real world friends. So you're like, let's go to Buffalo Wild Wings. And then you realize like they're just the only other person at the office who doesn't take heads up meetings really seriously.

0:29:57 Eli: But like you don't actually have a lot. So this happened to a buddy of mine recently, not to diverge from the topic. He's got like a work bud and they get along really well and they were like hey you guys go on a work trip together and he was like hey man do you want to fucking drive like it's down in pennsylvania we'll get like four and a half hours on the road we don't have to fly we don'T have to get all our shit in bag like do you wanna just take my car they get in the car and about 10 minutes in the friend reveals to him that he is a deeply deeply religious catholic of course not they're in fucking work who talks about the catholic church hey anyone you're

0:30:27 Thomas: That's amazing.

0:30:25 Tom: Oh shit. So they had not like had any like bonding time outside of you.

0:30:33 Eli: Supporting

0:30:33 Thomas: That is amazing. Oh, that's amazing, that

0:30:33 Eli: A giant city in europe that supports a rape cabal no it doesn't come up during fucking you know the aws is down again meetings and he was like he said that he was so careful the rest of the weekend and the friend was like is everything okay and he's like no I just you know I know you're religious so like I don't want to step on toes and he said well I'm not a trumper and he'S like okay well I don'T know and he WAS like what do you mean you don't know And just, again, like this horrible cliff of a conversation. Just like, please,

0:30:45 Thomas: Is amazing,

0:30:59 Tom: That sounds so fucking horrible. Yeah.

0:31:00 Thomas: Wow, that s amazing,

0:31:04 Eli: Please let me get on a plane.

0:31:08 Tom: And like to bring it back to the TikTok clip. Because I think it's. I think the thing he says in the beginning is the most important part. Which is like it's the hanging out that provides the value. You like so much of the messaging around male friendships has to do with what can you offer me how are you helping me to get ahead how are vous buying in with me to this optimization culture it's

0:31:29 Thomas: Well, at least I don't have any of that, but is that something that's popular online? Because I've never, I just don't Have friends.

0:31:33 Tom: Huge like it it's like the the sort of like male optimization culture is fucking enormous and it is it's what we're teaching young men their lives all should aim toward every every activity of the male life should now aim into this optimization space and so if you buy into that idea then your friends are also supposed to help you push forward and better optimize and fucking put sunlight on your butthole and all this getting the sauna and cold plunge and you know like it's but it's all part and parcel come I gotta go to you california you got more sun than I do so I I I'm, I'm flying as a, but I do think it's all part of that same sort of like ethos that's being sold out there. When in fact, like that guy says like, no, just hanging out. Remember when we were young, you'd be like, Hey, you want to hang out? Yeah. And that was it. You didn't have to have an activity to center the hanging out or an excuse to do the hanging out. You were hanging out because you were like, yeah, I fucking, you didn't say it necessarily, but he's like, why are you hanging out? Because I fucking love that guy.

0:31:39 Thomas: That's awful. Yikes. Oh, okay. I'll do that with my friends. Thought you'd never ask, Tom. Yeah, that's true.

0:32:39 Tom: That's why. Because when I'm with that person, I feel good. And that's the whole point of it. That's it. I will cop to when it was like 2001, 2002, pre -social media internet. I was a young man in my first apartment.

0:32:52 Eli: I did 9 -11.

0:32:54 Tom: I kicked one of my closest friends out of my life because I didn't think he offered me enough value. One of my close friends, I was just like, yeah, I can't. That guy just like Like, what do we have? No, no, not that guy. No, I, I actually, about a year later, I came back and like, I called him and I was like, I've made a terrible mistake. I miss you.

0:33:00 Thomas: Well, he was a deadbeat, right? I feel like you've told us this one, right. Oh, different one. Okay.

0:33:13 Tom: And I like we're friends and I just behaved like an asshole. And I told him, I was like I was 100% wrong. And if you're not friends with me after this, I totally get it. But I just owe you the biggest apology. I can't believe I did that. And he's like, yeah, we're very close. He and I are. Yeah. He and I are very close.

0:33:24 Thomas: Wow, how did that go down? Oh, nice. Well, that's good.

0:33:30 Eli: It's Cecil.

0:33:30 Tom: It took a little while to, it took a little while for us to kind of like trust each other again, you know, because I've fucking peaced out on them. But I, even in the early two thousands, that idea was floating around the zeitgeist, right. That especially for men and men who are sort of interested in that sort of self-improvement kind of space that is like part of, you know, that male culture, it was like, well, what's this guy doing? I remember thinking like, what do we have? Just a fond shared history. That's fucking nothing. And I'm like, I look back at that now as a 47 year old man. I'm like, that's everything.

0:34:06 Tom: That's really important. Like a fond shared history. Why would you throw that away?

0:34:00 Eli: You

0:34:10 Thomas: Wow.

0:34:10 Tom: I'm thinking like next year, Cecil and I will be friends for 30 years. And I's an anniversary present because he means that much to me.

0:34:19 Eli: Should go on a trip.

0:34:20 Tom: Yeah. I don't know if I have time but like time is the thing I can't buy yeah I took yeah that worked out so I just all that whole piece of that clip just resonates with me like big time because I did buy into it as a young guy you know I 100 was susceptible to that message

0:34:22 Eli: You should go on a trip. Pretend your neck popped out of your body. Look how much time they gave you for that. You had so much free time off.

0:34:50 Ad: [Ad break 3 — ad music]

0:34:51 Eli: Another thing that I love from that clip, and again, I don't want to read into some guy's funny TikTok so much, but that whole, like, you're being weird. What do you want at Buffalo Wild Wings? I also think it speaks to the problem. And again I promise not to be old man yells at internet this week. Like, I think it speaks to the problem that the Internet has caused, which is like if we don't agree with people on everything, there are enemies now as opposed to like. And look, I'm not saying you're going to have fucking Nazis and transphobes in your life, but like I think we are very quick to toss people out of our lives at this point.

0:35:23 Eli: And I think that we need more of like you're being weird. What do you want at Buffalo Wild Wings?

0:35:28 Tom: Yeah the solution to everything in a world where all answers and comments rely on absolutism is gotta divorce that guy you gotta divorce that girl you gotta cut that person out of your life they're toxic they're a narcissist there's some other disorder and it's like okay that pendulum has swung real fucking far and these judgments are made real fucking fast and again they're giant absolutism judgments on people and their character whether or not they should be a part of your life today or forever and it is like man I don't know you got that many people in your life that love you that you could just cut them out willy-nilly I mean I don't you know it seems like an aggressive response that's being really oversold and I know there'll be people are like ah it's a response to so many people keeping people in their lives that were you know abusive and all of that and like I get it but the pendulum has swung real fucking far in the other interaction

0:36:22 Eli: Well, and so often when someone comes to, you know, say that they've cut someone out of their life, they're replacing the Internet with it in a way that is not necessarily healthy. I feel like I see a lot of videos of people who are like, I cut this person out of my life and I'm here to tell you my community about it. And it's like, this is not a community. They're not fucking there for you. You know, this was something that that part of the reason why I got rid of social media is I I really, really thought my listeners were my friends.

0:36:52 Eli: Like, I can't explain the extent that I was like, no, we're all buddies and like, I'm the one on the air, but it's our show. And like, you know, luckily we had like a big old incident that proved that not to be true to me in a way that really fucking mattered. Right. But like, there was no understanding for me what a community that wasn't until I recognized that, oh, I could fall. And that the actual human beings in my life whose faces I saw on a regular basis were the people who were going to support me when they needed them. And I think what happens in online communities more often than not is it's not that the online community takes a fucking poll on a Facebook group that says, are we going to abandon Cindy during her divorce? I think it's that Cindy gets online less and less when she's having a tough time and your internet community is not there for you because you show up to the internet whenever I never expect anyone on the internet.

0:37:49 Thomas: Boy, that was, that Was a whole thing.

0:37:52 Tom: Mean I'm curious I I purposely was

0:37:54 Eli: Do you mean the incident in our lives where our, that sure was something. Would you call it a doozy Thomas? Was it a doozie?

0:37:56 Thomas: Yep, yep, that is, yeah... No, it's true, I said the same thing. I mean, I, I don't know if it, yeah that was that was a thing. Yeah I was, that was a doozy yeah I had the same thing where and it was interesting because I know we've talked about this before but like a lot of my relationships are online because I don't you know I don t see anybody and and the people who I consider my I guess I won't say closest because I never see you guys but like my favorite friends are you guys because I'm just so bored by everybody and I have no time so I don I don have a whole lot of like oh let me just find somebody who I barely like being around to bullshit with, you know, I just don't have fucking time for that. So like the people I like to hang out with are the people who it's really fucking fun to hang out with, which is you guys. But I have a lot of online relationships that I thought were definitely not nothing. And it was funny that as much as the whole lesson was like, oh, you know from the other way, it was like oh, these people who you listen to online are not your friends. It was for me. It Was like, Oh, I guess my lesson was the people People who talk to me like a human and like I was a friend to them, even though we talked like that regularly, we weren't actually.

0:39:08 Thomas: And that was news to me. I'm not talking about everybody, you know, or just a listener I'd never interacted with. I'm talking about people I actually talked to and saw, you knows, at the conventions, you now, whatever. And that, that was definitely disappointing. That was, that, was a shock. And it was there's a few examples that really stick in my mind of people going from like you're talking to them to then you see them talking about you and you're like oh boy that sure changes that huh that's like wow

0:39:34 Eli: Oh, it was trans. What a transfer. And again, I know this is online boys talking about being online to a certain extent, which is, but like, I think it really is indicative of like the internet is like that, right? It's not just us, right. You can see that in your local Facebook group. You can see that in your local mom group, Twitter and Facebook and these social networks, like they're not there to support you. They're there to support the friend who does turn away from you and start talking to an invisible audience. That's what the algorithm rewards. Right.

0:40:02 Eli: And so when people say like, Hey, I found community, because whenever we talk about like, don't necessarily find your community online, there are people who say like, hey, my community exists online. And I'm so happy for that. I'm not denying anybody's existence of community. I am speaking from the bottom of the pit. Like, Hey, here's what happens when that's all you have.

0:40:21 Eli: Here's what's happens when you rely on that. Here'S what's happened is when you start drinking the Kool -Aid, right? Because look, the truth is, and again, I know this is online boy talks about being online, but like enough people had written me like, I love you. Your work has saved my life, blah, blah. That I just assumed they were going to take my side. Like whatever was going to happen, and they were going to take my side first and ask questions later. And I don't know whether or not it's a bad thing or a good thing that like so many people instantly turned and were like, oh no, he's been a piece of shit all along. What I realized from that interaction, which I think is useful to you, right? Because truly like pity party, oh no I had a side time on the internet is completely not useful to your life. You listening to this podcast, what I would say is that community is excellent. I love that you found it. I am part of a bunch of online communities as well. I'm not shitting on them I'm saying that when push comes to shove the people who are there for you are friends the people whose hands you touch whose faces you see and I think that part of the reason why everything feels so broken right now is so many of us are turning to these online communities in moments of need and those communities are not built to provide that kind of help

0:41:35 Tom: Think that's a structural problem with the way that social media works right I don't think it's avoidable and like I alluded to this in the last episode by saying it out loud and everything but like I I don't think that it is possible to use the Internet in ways that are not like social media other than something like Messenger, which is one to one may as well just be a chat app because it is like in ways. That are not performative. Everything that takes place in a comment section is to some degree less conversation and more performance.

0:42:06 Thomas: Yeah you know that's what somebody has said that I think is really smart is that when you look at it in terms of like and this applies everything everything, friendship, politics, everything. How much is our audience when we're speaking the other person? Or I came up with this. I don't remember. I can't remember one or the other. But like when you think about it, the more your audience is the person you are directly speaking to, the better. That is how it should be.

0:42:32 Thomas: And there's varying degrees of it. When you're maybe in a group of three or four friends and you're speaking to those friends as a whole, or maybe Maybe then you start to be speaking for like keeping in mind who's going to hear your words. You know, maybe other people are going to hearing words and to the point where now we get to the other end of the spectrum that we're at now, where nobody is talking to anybody for the purpose of that conversation. It's not like, like politically, I don't know why they're still doing the press shit they do with the white house. What is the point? That's not an interaction of any value. All it is is like, Hey, what lie are you going to tell us about this? Oh, okay. Here's a lie I'll tell about that. That's it. Those are two entities that are communicating that are not talking to each other in any way. None of the words they exchange to each other have any meaning or relevance to the other person they're talking to. And I, sorry to bring it back to politics, but it applies in this friendship stuff too, where I forget who said it, but talking about how, yes, these people talk to you online, but they're also talking to an audience of people in a way. And that's everybody, not just like us who, you know, have audiences, but people post stuff for audiences. They post social media for audiences there. And some people, and you don't know who's who are truly just going through interactions with you still for an audience in a way, like they're, they're going to post about it when they unfriend somebody like, this is the thing I see all the time now. Hey, sorry. Didn't know I had that person in my friends just unfriended them. And I'm like, well, who is that for man? Like, who Who is that for? I get the, you don't have to be friends with anyone you don'T want to be friends with. I totally get that. But the part where we do this thing, people do that declaration to everybody about it.

0:44:14 Thomas: Just thinned out my friends list of the people who did. And it's like, what, who is that? Who is it for? Who, who the fuck is that four?

0:44:20 Tom: Yeah, well, I'll tell you what I think about that is that I think we have been sold over. Over the last 15 to 20 years, the idea that we are a brand and that what we are doing when we do these kind of performances is we are not making the kind of like one to one deep personal connections that we pretend we're making. That's what community is, right? Real community is a series of interconnected, deep personal collections. That is not the same as what you're just what we're describing with this online stuff, which I have always felt like. And I know I'll get shit about it again, but I won't see it because I'm not online is like I think it's a I think It's a inherently less than experience because that is brand protection, right? So when I go on and I say hey, sorry everybody. I'm speaking to my audience I'm seeking to the people who are seeing Tom the brand right and I am doing brand protection I'm sort of running a PR moment here, right as I say that I'm doing work as a fucking media analyst rather than right that's

0:45:16 Thomas: For other people who don't actually care about you and are just doing their brand. It's also empty.

0:45:25 Tom: The other piece right when you confuse the idea when you conflate rather the idea of a human being as a brand and a human Being all human beings as public spectacles and then you combine that with the spotlight effect the spotlight affect in psychology is the idea which is true that nobody's really paying attention to you they're just paying attention themselves and they don't remember any of the shit you wore yesterday and that super embarrassing thing that you did that you can't get out of your mind nobody fucking remembers it just like you don't remember the embarrassing thing that they did the spotlight effect is super when you mix all that stuff together you get this melange that is incredibly unpleasant you can reduce the amount of conflict in your life to nearly zero if you just get offline almost all the conflict that modern people are having in their lives almost all is online like the little micro conflicts and disagreements and arguments that I'm having. I don't have an argument every week since I've been offline. Who the fuck would I argue with?

0:46:28 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:46:29 Tom: Everybody in my life fucking loves me or they're not a part of my life. That's it. It's crazy how much conflict we bring in by conflating these ideas about what a friend is. We have this idea, to get back to the video, we have this idea that friends need to provide us value of some kind. They need to add to our lives. They bring some substance to this party but it's like man the fucking biggest substance that my friends that I love the most bring to the party is that I Love Them and They Love Me Back that's it so when we hang out the thing I'm most looking forward to is seeing that person I've always I

0:47:04 Thomas: Well, you're going to order a Buffalo Wildlings. Yeah. It's a great video.

0:47:08 Tom: Don't know how I'll get invited to something and I'll be like I fucking hate that activity I can't wait to go because of the people that are going to be there I've gone to every I've going to super bowl parties I fucking don't care about the super bowl I've loved every super bowl party I've been to to because Cecil's hosted them and it's been it's been an awesome day like an awesome day. I don't care what the activity is if I get to see somebody that I love right and I've always felt that way and most people do. It's only when we sort of like commodify our relationships with people by what value they add. That's when we lose the whole thing and then we don't really have friends. We've got like fucking like weird brand ambassador business partners or some bullshit, you know, and they don't want to go fishing with you.

0:47:52 Clip: DEAR OLD DAD

0:47:58 Eli: Yeah alright gentlemen before we go there are multiple reports Ports claiming that Sting has been kidnapped. As of now, the police still have no lead.

0:48:10 Thomas: I think you've told that one before, actually.

0:48:12 Eli: Ah, bigot.

0:48:13 Thomas: That's all right. Someone tell me. Everybody, someone online, tell me if he's done that one before, because I think he has.

0:49:07 Eli: I win!

0:49:08 Tom: I was probably just gently sleeping.

0:49:11 Thomas: Boy, that was a whole thing.