DOD181: Let's Talk about Neil Gaiman...

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:29 Tom: To Dear Old Dads the podcast that is definitely not meeting its heroes I'm Tom Curry I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick hello gentlemen

0:00:39 Eli: You talking about time, you get to podcast with me every week. Here I am. Welcome, Tomifer.

0:00:45 Tom: Have guys have heroes or idols or people people that you've in your life looked up to or like celebrity type folks like that? Yeah? Like a don't meet your heroes kind of mentality and I also kind of had like maybe don't have heroes, maybe just like the stuff they do. Like the time I had an opportunity to actually meet in person like a musician that I really liked, there's this guy William Elliot Whitmore that I Really Really Like and Haley and I went to one of his shows.

He played out in, like, DeKalb County at some dive bar and he's, like, not terribly well known and so he's just, like, selling his own merch and I was like, oh, this is super cool, and I walked up to him and I was like, wait, I definitely should not meet this guy, what if he sucks? I've liked this guy, like, I've been waiting to see this guy live for literally 12 years and I was like, maybe don't meet him, maybe don't meet him, and then I was like, now I'm gonna meet him. He was super great, like, he was a super nice guy, really generous, played the song that I want him to play. I was, okay, if you could play midnight that, because he goes, yeah, yeah, sure, I'll throw it in the set. Like, he threw that song in his set for me. He was a total sweetheart of a guy.

0:00:45 Eli: Yeah. Of course, yeah. Right.

0:01:30 Thomas: Oh, man. Oh, wow.

0:01:46 Eli: That Rules.

0:01:47 Tom: Yeah, it was awesome. It was awesome, so I'm batting 1 ,000. I'm never going to do it again.

0:01:51 Eli: No.

0:01:48 Thomas: Man, Yeah, well, I was going to say, I mean, you could just have heroes that aren't men and then it's fine.

0:01:58 Tom: Not male here. No.

0:02:00 Thomas: It's like, yeah, don't meet your hero. Oh, oh, every woman is your hero is probably fine. Like, there's no problem there.

0:02:03 Tom: Yeah, that's probably true.

0:02:07 Thomas: Yeah, like, I'm just realizing, like a lot of musicians.

0:02:07 Tom: Yeah, That's probably true. You know who are not cash money? Neither Penn nor Teller, in my experience, were those Yeah! The first time Cecil and I went to the first, like, uh, you know, atheist or skeptical event we went to was, uh, The Amazing Meeting, and, like, fuck, we're old, so I don't know, like, like a million years ago.

0:02:10 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, really? Really?

0:02:14 Eli: A meeting of not cash money individuals if ever there was one

0:02:30 Thomas: Yeah.

0:02:30 Tom: It was I mean, like, like, we met, like, Randy. He was real nice guy, but, like, by met

0:02:31 Eli: Yeah

0:02:34 Thomas: He was in his thirties at the time. That's how old, that's how old Tom.

0:02:35 Tom: Yeah right yeah he was just learning to drive. No, but, like, yeah, he, like, he was nice in the sense that, like, he, I think people were pointing him in a general direction and he was happy to take photos, you know what I mean? Right. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But, like, both Penn and Teller were just total dicks. Like, they were just absolutely above it all, unwilling to, like, stop and meet anybody, unwilling to, like, acknowledge that they weren't the biggest, they were just assholes for

0:02:40 Thomas: Yeah. Wow.

0:02:47 Eli: Joe Biden nice forever

0:03:04 Thomas: I'm not necessarily the judgment there, Tom, but I have met, actually met, a bunch of Sharks players at an event and have realized that I think we need to give a pass possibly for people who have to meet strangers all day long. If they're kind of aloof or just like sort of out of, you know, like, there's a difference between, oh, they have to meat a kajillion people. So they're past it. You know, how long can you do that? You know how long can you have that energy, uh

0:03:30 Eli: Forever for your whole life because Cause that's your job.

0:03:34 Tom: Here's the thing about that, like, if you're a shark I agree with you.

0:03:34 Thomas: It depends on what you mean is

0:03:36 Tom: If you're a Sharks player, right, if you are a Sharks player, your job is to play hockey.

0:03:40 Thomas: To play hockey so you could punch me or something and I'd be like, yeah, sweet. That's, that's what you do in the game.

0:03:46 Eli: Right.

0:03:44 Tom: Your That's your job Like, fame element of it is secondary to the job, right? It's not what you're trying to produce, but Like Penn and Teller are trying to reduce the fame part, that's what they're out there selling. Like, if I go to a conference, right, like, I know I'm a small fish, but let's talk small fish and ponds here, if I, I go to a conference and I'm at the bar, I have an obligation to be friendly and jovial, even if I'm tired.

0:03:46 Thomas: Right. Fair enough, yeah.

0:04:10 Eli: Yes.

0:04:10 Tom: And when I'm too tired for that, I got to leave the bar. Like my energy for that runs out, what I shouldn't do is hang out in that public space and be rude to people. That's assholery, right?

0:04:19 Eli: Yep.

0:04:20 Thomas: That's weird. I also think it's a particular accomplishment, to your whole thing as a performer is not talking and you're still an asshole. That's like that should, should be like, ah, finally, I can talk. Uh,

0:04:29 Eli: Yep. Finally. I'm so excited to hear about people's. Yeah. I mean your job, Tom, you put it perfectly right. Your job when you are producing that stuff. And we, we experienced this in skepticism, right? Your job is to give someone as good an experience as you can possibly give while maintaining your boundaries.

0:04:47 Thomas: I think you're right that it does depend on some things in context, but I just, I, there's stories of, like, oh, I saw this actor and, try, you know, actress and tried to get their attention, get an autograph, and they were rude to me. It's like, yeah, but they're in a restaurant, like, or something. You, you know, it's like, yeah,

0:05:02 Tom: I feel like that's different. I agree with you there. Like, I feel that the context matters. If some guy's out, like, buying groceries, it's fucking gauche to approach him at all, right? Like, let the guy buy groceries, but if he's at an event, like if you're at an even called "Pay Attention to Me" at 3 o 'clock, you don't think at 4:15 you get to be like, "Well, I can't believe you would talk to me," yeah?

0:05:03 Eli: Yeah. Yeah, right. Right. Well, I'm a private person, right?

0:05:03 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

0:05:24 Tom: Get the fuck out of here," like actually fucking get out of her.

0:05:24 Eli: Yeah. Yeah. I'll I'll throw a hot take out there with a caveat. The first is that I think actresses can be much more guarded than actors can, because at any moment they might be like literally physically attacked. Let me give you my hot take. If you're an actor and you're out at lunch and you'RE famous enough that someone's going to come up to you at lunch, you got to fucking do it you know why because your prize was being Brad Pitt if I was Brad Pitt levels of famous you could gently place a finger in my ear if you see me at fucking lunch because do you know what my reward for being that famous was 100 million dollars a number 100 million times higher than it would take to get me to kill a guy like the um the idea that it is somehow like oh well they're doing no you don't get any privacy anymore actor actor you DON'T GET ANY PRIVACY ANYMORE YOU DON'T GET AN AUTONOMY ANY MORE YOU

0:05:37 Thomas: Yeah man.

0:05:57 Tom: This is

0:06:22 Eli: GOT A HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS yeah you know what you could do you know you can do you can move to an island with your hundred million dollars and throw dollar bills at the wall for the rest of your life is what you can DO the notion that they get to just Just be regular folk, except for Oscar night when they get to take a selfie with Ellen. Like, fuck you. Pick. Or privacy? Fucking pick.

0:06:22 Thomas: That sounds like hell. Yeah. I don't know about that.

0:06:24 Tom: Insane. That's Insane. No. No. That's Crazy. I completely disagree. Agree. I know, it's context dependent.

0:06:46 Eli: You're wrong.

0:06:46 Thomas: Yeah I also think it's weird. The jobs we decide are that like Like there's plenty of jobs, you know, like you mentioned hockey player, their jobs play hockey. But honestly, that's just because no one gives a shit about the sport of hockey except me. Like there're NBA players where they're treated like actors and people have that same logic of like, yeah, it's your job, you're famous. And what's weird is people who are like, I don't know, directors or cinematographers, no one give a shit. They're like doing pretty much the same thing. Saying their job is to produce the same product essentially. Know who never gets a break is the auto ads. That's

0:06:49 Tom: No.

0:07:06 Eli: Yeah, 100%. Yeah.

0:07:20 Thomas: Right they are always signing autographs.

0:07:20 Eli: The auto ends. Yes. Intruding into your private life like so many fans of the celebrities of your podcasting experience. But you can put an end to them by being caught being a horrible sexual predator. That's right. If you're a sexual predator of just a virulent nature, we'll stop using auto ads on your podcast. We'll actually find out and we'll send it individually. And I don't say this enough, but I think it's time that we come out. We actually do control the volume of the auto ads. We pick the volume for every auto ad. We really lower. We sort of do the fade tool on the podcast and then we really come in there. We're doing it live. You don't know that.

0:07:36 Tom: This is Christ, I

0:07:51 Thomas: I'm on the fader. Yeah, I'm

0:08:00 Tom: Like the randomized feature.

0:08:00 Eli: Yeah. No. We push the the button ourselves. But you can make all of those things stop over at patreon.com/dearolddads, where you'll get a commercial-free version of every single episode, little parenting story at the end, and hey, I don't want to tease you, but your boys got a good one this week. So if ever you were considering signing signing up, this might be the week. patreon.com/dearolddads. Rip into it.

0:08:01 Tom: We use Yeah. That's good. Yeah.

0:08:30 Tom: God.

0:08:32 Thomas: I think the time to sign up was, get a time machine, sign up last week, because I just, the parenting story of Eli spilling his water and then not Not knowing how things work is one of the funniest. I listened to that like three times. It's so fucking funny.

0:08:43 Eli: Yeah. Enjoy it. Everybody enjoy it.

0:08:43 Tom: This is one of those stories that, like, I was like, fuck, I don't want to introduce it. It's like this is Whoo.

0:08:52 Thomas: I like it. We've totally avoided talking about the fucking guy. Good thing I didn't know anything about this guy and I've never read him. So I can I can. Can handle it.

0:08:55 Tom: Well, let

0:09:02 Eli: We jump in, we should probably do a quick trigger warning for folks. Like, we generally don't avoid, like, swearing or graphic descriptions of sex, but we might get into some graphic descriptions of not cash money experiences, uh, and if you are a person who doesn't need that in your life, we will understand. Uh, go to that or honestly skip the, so skip the side, you know what I'm saying?

0:09:15 Thomas: Yeah. Skip to that parenting story that Eli's teasing.

0:09:17 Tom: Say the least. Yeah. Yeah. To the Patreon if you're, yeah, super trigger warning episode. Yeah. Yeah. This

0:09:30 Eli: A lot episodes where, where we keep it chill and fun and light. So light, ever so light, like a baby's touch.

0:09:30 Thomas: Oh,

0:09:38 Tom: Not one of them. So this is, we're going to talk about the sexual allegations, um, Neil Gaiman in this episode. I, I actually remember the first time I was introduced to Neil Gaiman was like, fuck.

0:09:39 Thomas: Don't know about that.

0:09:48 Eli: Innocent till proven guilty. That's

0:09:50 Tom: That shit. Guilty as fuck.

0:09:50 Eli: Our thought here. Those eight

0:09:52 Tom: Like allegedly, allegedly, just for the purposes of not getting sued, I'll say allegedly. And then I'll add winky fucking face.

0:09:52 Eli: People who don't know each other are probably making stuff up.

0:10:00 Thomas: Yeah. You.

0:10:01 Eli: Feel pretty safe. I feel really safe. I feel very safe here.

0:10:02 Tom: Right? Yeah. I bro. I know.

0:10:05 Eli: I'll take that lawsuit. Neil Gaiman is suing a parenting podcast for, for numbers. Sure.

0:10:06 Tom: Yeah.

0:10:13 Thomas: But if he decided to do that, we'd have to come up with a literal million dollars to defend ourselves, like just just, just FYI. Hey.

0:10:18 Eli: Tom's

0:10:14 Tom: But I So we, everybody knows, allegedly, everything

0:10:21 Eli: Got it. Yeah.

0:10:22 Thomas: Just everybody knows the whole thing where everybody's Oh, oh. Uh, truth.

0:10:23 Tom: Nope. Everything we say is Allegedly.

0:10:26 Thomas: Is an absolute defense. Uh, yeah, truth plus a million, million fucking dollars. Just, and if you ever, I'm not even joking. This is like my new, like, like my social cause. If you ever hear anyone say truth is an absolute defense to defamate or whatever, just always add truth plus a literal million dollars, which really puts it into context. Like not a lot of people have, a lot Of people have truth.

0:10:31 Eli: I

0:10:47 Tom: Does Kind of add a little perspective to it, yeah.

0:10:49 Thomas: Whole lot of people have true. Not a lot. Of people of truth plus 1 million fucking.

0:10:53 Eli: Feel free to speak from your experience, but just speaking from my own, sending their lawyer back a letter that says I will dress like your mom, very successful, very successful over at Puzzle in a Thunderstorm LLC, I could say two confirmed successes. No game, and I'll, I'll dress like your mom. And that's funny, cause she was a Scientologist. So I'll bring the little e-meter things and I'll be like, "Ooh."

0:11:09 Tom: Jesus Christ. So She was a, yeah, he did, he did grow up in, like, fucking weird Scientology shit, so he's had a fucking weird life, I will say that, like, fucking, this guy, this is not like a defense at all, it's not an excuse at all, I'm just, it, it just an aside, fucking guy has had a weird fucking life, you know, and I do wonder with some people like that, like, there any chance this person was gonna grow up normal? You know what I mean, like a, was it just like a hundred, not this, and it's again Again, not an excuse, but I just wonder like, at some point, like, it's just like, yeah, things aren't going to be normal for this guy. So anyway, Neil Gaiman rose to fame really with the writing of the Sandman comics, which I read myself back in the mid 90s are actually the, I think the only comic series other than Mouse that I've actually, the graphic novels, that I'm not into graphic novels or comics.

0:11:30 Thomas: Yep.

0:11:40 Thomas: No. Yeah. It's

0:12:00 Tom: Never liked them, but blew me away. I will tell you that, like, they fucking blew me way. I was incredible. I had a friend that really pressed me to read him. He's like, "You gotta read these." I'm like, "I don't know." He handed them to me, like, loaned me, made me read them, they blew me away, and they were great, and I think a lot of people had a similar experience, and I think that I've read probably everything that Neil Gaiman has written. I missed something, it was by accident. Yeah.

0:12:00 Thomas: One more than me Well, But here's the thing, Tom, to protect your own ego, though, don't you want to say, "Oh, but it was bad all along. It was totally the worst writing and I knew it was actually bad" even though I was a huge fan of it." No, I'm just, I'm teasing.

0:12:26 Tom: No.

0:12:32 Eli: Right. Yeah.

0:12:33 Tom: It's great, like Right.

0:12:36 Thomas: I, like, I appreciate you not doing that, because I, that is my least fucking favorite thing.

0:12:36 Tom: Right. I fucking hate that shit Yeah.

0:12:40 Thomas: Like I loved Harry Potter. We all, all loved Harry Potter. Not Tom, was in his fifties when it came out, but Eli and I fucking loved Harry potter. Oh, Tom did too. Yeah. I'm there are critiques of that, that I maybe didn't think of when I was a kid. Sure. But there were great fucking kids books. Like they just were, really entertaining.

0:12:40 Eli: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:12:44 Tom: I loved Harry potter No. I, I Yeah. Yeah. Sure. I read him not as a kid. I did, I read 'em, I read hem as, like, uh, I think I read 'em out of college and I was like, "These are good books," cuz they're good books, right?

0:12:59 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, right.

0:13:03 Eli: I think, I think, I think the impulse to that comes in two directions, right? The first is the people who wanted to cry you for still enjoying the thing, or the people who, who didn't like the thing and now want to, like, um, their dislike of the thing Right. I think for them, and this is especially true of Harry Potter, is, like, when that thing happened, when that person turned out to be a sack of shit, it was ruined for them, right?

0:13:17 Thomas: Yeah Oh for sure. Nothing wrong wrong with that. Nothing wrong with that.

0:13:28 Eli: It's it's not okay for the thing itself to not be ruined for you, right? Like when you say to someone, "Hey, I can separate the art from the artist," I think what, what a lot of people hear is, I have reserved a space of okayness where you don't have okayness, right?

0:13:34 Tom: Right.

0:13:34 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah,

0:13:46 Tom: No.

0:13:46 Eli: I feel safe and comfortable here in a place that you don't feel safe and comfortable. And I empathize with that. I do. Uh, but it is a part of growing up and understanding that actually you don't get to tell other people where their comfort begins and their comfort ends, especially when they're saying, "Hey, I match up with this person." The other side of that, the other side of the "he was a bag of shit all along" is, have, I know South Park is problematic and shitty nowadays, but do you remember the Tiger Woods episode? So in the Tiger Woods episode, it is genuinely one of the best parodies of this problem that's ever been published in media. So basically, the boys find out that Tiger Woods has cheated on his wife, and all the adults, adults pretend that there is a wizard making famous men cheat on their wives. So

0:13:59 Thomas: 100%. Yeah.

0:14:14 Tom: Know

0:14:14 Thomas: No.

0:14:33 Tom: Wait

0:14:34 Eli: Then the FBI gets involved, and they're hunting down this wizard, and just as they're about to hunt down the wizard, one of the, like, army guys is like, "Come on, guys, like, we, there's not actually a wizard in here, we have to," and then in the next scene, they very clearly dressed him up as the wizard and shoot him think this impulse comes from that place, right, which is saying that is a bad man, right. That is an evil, bad man with an evil black heart who does evil things. And he's always been evil. He's a fluke of nature and time, as opposed to this is a problem of how we teach men to think about fame. This is a problems of how socialize men generally is a much harder conversation to have, especially if you're a man.

Right, I was thinking about, and the reason why I wanted to do this episode is something that I think we don't talk about enough that directly leads to the game and thing, is, and this reminds me of, uh, last week or a couple weeks ago, whenever we were talking about the sort of men as provider thing, which is that our culture teaches men through media and through socialization that, that there is a level of fame, a level of money, or a level of power in which you will be entitled to random, anonymous, kinky sex.

The women in your life will suddenly become objects who want to bring sex to you at a stage door, like it's freshly baked cookies, and you are now entitled to take that sex. And all of this non -consensual content that we're going to talk about, all of this contact, it does not come from the fact that Neil Gaiman is an evil person who sat in his chair going, I'm going to do an evil thing. I'm gonna rape people. I am going to assault people.

It came from the fact he has been inundated with culture's message to men that when you reach a certain level of power, fame, or money, you are entitled to this sex. Sex is a thing you just get to take from other people. And you don't.

0:14:50 Tom: What?

0:14:51 Thomas: Wow.

0:16:34 Thomas: Yeah, I didn't think about that component, because I mean, we didn't really detail it and we don't have to, but it does seem like, from my reading of this, um, this was a bizarre one, I'll be honest. When I read this article, this was the fucking weird one. Now, it has some of the same things that all these abusers have, but, like, this idea that you're just going to enter into instantly, like, one-sidedly extreme, like, BDSM behavior with someone without pride, like, I don't care how famous you are, you, you don't get to just skip the part where you had the consent talk, like that.

0:17:06 Eli: Yes.

0:17:07 Thomas: I didn't know that like anyone could think that like that is a weird thing to think.

0:17:07 Eli: Well, And that's another thing worth discussing, is the pornification of kink. Right, because there's a, there is a tremendous, no one talks about real kink, right? No one talks about kink, because no one admits to being kinky, right? Nobody ever. In Right.

0:17:16 Thomas: Hmm. Yeah. Well, like in mainstream culture. I agree.

0:17:26 Tom: Yes.

0:17:29 Eli: In mainstream culture.

0:17:29 Thomas: I agree with that. They

0:17:30 Eli: Right. Everyone

0:17:31 Thomas: Portray it really fucking stupidly.

0:17:31 Eli: Right. And the way that kink a is always portrayed is without any of the safety tool that and healthy consensual kink has to involve, right?

0:17:37 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Fifty Shades of Grey or whatever the fuck.

0:17:43 Eli: Exactly. And what we see in Gaiman, and I want to talk about the kink side of things, because I think it is important, right, but what we see in Gaiman's behavior, right, that one -sided nature, exactly what you just spoke about, right, have seen in a thousand movies, right? It's in Wolf of Wall Street, it's an every depiction of a rock star, it's every depiction of a rapper, it's just the groupies waiting. This is a person who felt entitled to sex from this one -sided sexual relationship because he is famous, and culture has informed him over and over and over again that fame or power or money entitles you to sex for other people. Yeah.

0:18:18 Thomas: Understand the cultural message of famous dudes get to kind of fuck whoever they want. We've definitely sent that powerful cultural message. The part where you add in and you get to do fucking whatever without the consent talk, that's fucking deeply disturbing, and, like, I, I, I genuinely wonder, it's not, it's non -important and I want to emphasize that this is just something I wonder in my brain just out of curiosity, if Neil Gaiman, like, he don't even know if he understands that he did something wrong, like And after reading that, I was like, what? Like, how could you just think you can skip the consent? Like, but the the way he's depicted and not even in his words, just the way like he's depicted by the victims in the article, it's like, does I he not even understand that he's a rapist? You want to emphasize not important. Just me wondering that doesn't change anything he did.

0:19:04 Eli: Yeah. Oh,

0:18:59 Tom: I feel like just To, yeah. I I, but like, I, I, like, I want to offer, like, another, like, don't know perspective on that, the similar No, the similarity, the similarities between the way that he, like, uh, he treated those women, feel like you guys, guys, watch It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, so

0:19:09 Eli: Sex is bad.

0:19:13 Thomas: I watched the first season back in the 70s when it came out.

0:19:19 Eli: Yes.

0:19:21 Tom: Like That's a great show, but like, there's, there's an episode where Dennis is describing the Dennis Method of sexual manipulation of a woman, right? Like, how to manipulate her into this, like, abusive relationship. It's a, it's really, like, It's actually really telling because it's, it really demonstrates that, like, there are people that have a method. What it seems to me from Gaiman's behavior is that he's got a method, like, got a method in terms of who he selects, who he, who he singles out

0:19:21 Thomas: Wow. Huh.

0:19:30 Eli: Yes.

0:19:46 Thomas: Interesting.

0:19:49 Eli: He's got a method. He's Got a Circle of Enablers.

0:19:50 Tom: Right. Like, he's not, like, having this kind of problematic sex with people that are his age, his financial level. They're always 30, 40 years younger. They're always incredibly financially desperate, and, and he is very much not. They, I, patterns that just are so trackable that, like, for me, I'm like, yeah, like, he knows, like, he knows, and he knows explicitly to himself in words, he says inside of his head, I will allegedly So, like, that's, I want to be sure that, like, that is how I feel about it because It's so systematic, it doesn't appear in any way that it's plausible, plausible that he's like, "Yeah, I mean, I just thought this was normal that as a 61-year-old guy, I'm going to hit on a 22-year-old who's got no fucking secure housing, who relies on me for her food and her board and her rent, who has a history of, you abuse and who has no family relationships."

0:20:24 Eli: A

0:20:29 Thomas: It's

0:20:53 Eli: Single parent with cancer who's living on my land.

0:20:57 Tom: Yeah. I mean he's, he's picking the most vulnerable people. People, that's not an accident. Like it's not even an accident that you're around people that are like that all the time either. Right. Don't have a ton of people like that in my life because I'm not cultivating vulnerable people in my social circle with the intent to sexually abuse them. And it just feels like allegedly that's what Neil Gaiman was doing in this. Like, because cause again it's so patterned, well

0:21:03 Thomas: No. Yeah. Is Remember the one that was that, but what, what were the other ones? Were they just, uh, two but more than one babysitter?

0:21:33 Eli: Were babysitters, readers, two readers. A who was a friend who, yes,

0:21:39 Thomas: Oh. Jesus. That's

0:21:40 Eli: There was a friend who was living on his property because she was going through a divorce and they were

0:21:46 Thomas: The one I keep thinking of, that's a different one. I thought that was

0:21:48 Tom: So The first one was this, like, 22-year-old girl who came over and unhoused

0:21:52 Eli: Unhoused. Ran

0:21:48 Thomas: Oh. Yeah. Fucking a, no, that one that's the one I remember, and I'm now realizing maybe the pattern was so consistent I, I might have blanked and thought it was the same person.

0:21:53 Eli: Palmer on the street. Yeah.

0:21:54 Tom: Her own parents. Yeah. I Seriously? Thomas. Like, You could be forgiven for that. Yeah.

0:22:02 Thomas: No. Shit. Wow.

0:22:04 Tom: You could be forgiving for actually having them kind of blend together, because not because they, as, as individuals, aren't important, but because the pattern is so, is so severe, but I know you're gonna, like, make fun of me, like, all sex is bad. I don't believe that. I actually want to add like, something that, that counters that, that encounters that, like, I I I

0:22:13 Thomas: Yeah, okay, that's, that's, wow, wow. I've had sex at least once.

0:22:23 Eli: Have six. As long as she promises not to turn the lights out.

0:22:28 Tom: Think there's something to be said, though, for not stripping fans and groupies of their agency. I don, don't really buy the idea that fans or groupies inherently are more vulnerable and do not want to have sex with celebrities or stars or you stars or football players or writers or whatever and don't have any agency to make that choice, like and I know no one is saying that, but, like, I, like, that is part of some of the messaging and I don't like that because it's nonsense. It's just complete nonsense.

0:22:50 Thomas: I I agree with that. Yeah. I think some people do and it's dumb Yeah. It's infantilizing too. Like if a fully adult-ass woman is a fan of an author and is like, boy, I'd love to hook up with that author, I fucking

0:22:58 Tom: Yeah. Yeah.

0:22:59 Eli: No. It's But Can we come over here to the judgment corner, guys? Step over here with the judgment partner, because the fans, the groupies, if they will, they're over there. No judgment. You want to fuck your favorite author? Fuck your favourite author. Let's talk over here. Hey, authors, what the fuck are you doing fucking your fans? Gross. Fuck!

0:23:19 Tom: Wait, why is that, I don't know that it's necessarily gross. I think it's gross when, when the people are very, very young or very, very vulnerable, but if everybody is an adult, that, and there's not this, like, weird, insane power dynamic, I think two grown people, regardless of whether or not one of them has a, a fan relationship or not, can have sex with the other person.

0:23:20 Eli: A grown -up Well,

0:23:39 Tom: I don't know why that's a problem.

0:23:38 Thomas: Yeah, I agree with Tom. I, I think when we went through that can training, I actually thought it's a perfectly like way to view it. Like absolutely a million and one ways that it could be problematic, but there are plenty of ways that It may not be. And I, I always found it weird. There are are plenty of other ways that people are like, hey, men, why don't you work on yourself and have a hobby or an interest that makes you interesting to women or something like that? You know, like, like take up something that makes you interesting to just average guy advice. But if you get too good at it, no, you actually can't, you know what I mean? Like it's kind of a weird thought.

0:23:53 Tom: Yeah, it's not necessarily. Yeah.

0:24:07 Tom: Yeah, Well, I married somebody that was a listener to the show, right?

0:24:18 Thomas: We also should remember that, I guess. Eli.

0:24:20 Tom: Like, I, like, I don't, I don't think that that wasn't a problematic power dynamic. I just don't believe that I don't believe that Haley

0:24:26 Eli: She was a fan of my show first, so she, her were always ameliorated because she was like, oh my gosh gosh, third or fourth best podcast. Like, I can't wait to meet this guy. You know what I'm saying?

0:24:29 Tom: You believe that she didn't have agency. She had all the agency in the world, like just because she happened to. And again, like, you know, my celebrity is zero out of a thousand, right? It's very minor. I'm not trying to pretend I'm anything here, but

0:24:41 Thomas: Yeah.

0:24:47 Eli: Right. And want I to be clear that I'm not talking about their agency. I'm talking about the famous person in that situation. Right. And again, I'm Not talking about the person who dates and then marries the fan. Right. Because that's relatively common. Right? And I think everybody is on board for that. That that's, that's just how those two people met.

0:25:08 Tom: Wouldn't there be some people prior to that that you dated that you didn't marry, that you were sleeping with at some point, like, why? Like, you know, yeah.

0:25:13 Eli: Yeah. So No, what I, what I'm talking about, and I want to be very clear that I'm not like problematizing this, right. I don't think it is inherently predatory, right? I'm just over here in judgment corner. Like if the place that you hunt for poon is your fans.

0:25:29 Thomas: Maybe, Tom, and I think you're thinking of the, the more pure version of it, you know, like, hey, there's someone who's a fan of, uh, maybe your work, and, like, you talk to them about it and they're interested and it's like deep conversation. There's another component of it where men, like, if it's a shitty dude who now is like, okay, I have to put even less effort into caring about this person as a human being, like, I can just be like, okay, group of people who are already into me, let me put no effort in at all and not have to treat them as people. It becomes an extension of that sexism of, like, not looking at women as people, and that I think is, uh, uh, in a lot of that, that dynamic, and that I think is a different thing.

0:25:57 Eli: Right.

0:26:08 Tom: Well The thing that you said, Eli, that I'll just, like, latch on to and say, like, if you're a person and you're thinking about it as hunting for poon, and I know you're just using it as a joke, but like a lot of people aren't, then you're problem, no matter what.

0:26:16 Eli: Yeah, that's A hundred percent. A great point, right?

0:26:21 Tom: Right? I agree on both of you, like both of your levels that you just said, like what you said, Thomas, yeah, and like what, but you said, Eli, yeah. So like if I'm some celebrity writer or whatever, and I'm thinking about people as something I get to fuck instead of a person, right? If I'm hunting for a poon, then like, yeah, I am a problematic person and I am inherently leveraging a power dynamic in that way to avoid seeing people as fully human. I am doing that intentionally and that I think is a problem because you're objectifying other people in ways that they probably don't want to be objectified.

0:26:35 Thomas: Right?

0:26:36 Eli: Right.

0:26:55 Eli: And that anonymity, right, that lack of humanhood is part of that message about celebrity, right? Because what do we see in Wolf of Wall Street? What do you see in the rap videos, right? It does, he doesn't like stop the rock music video and to be like, and by the way, this is Stephanie, we met at one of our shows, but since then we've had a really deep connection, right? She's just like a naked lady grinding on his leg. Right. And it's just the message they get sent over and over that these women you are going to meet are not people. They are not human beings with wants and needs. They're salacious side in your story where you're the main character. Right. Right. And that's a big part of it. Right. Is we tell men over and over and over again, you're the main character. You're the hero. This is your well deserved rise to power. And kinky sex with whoever is part of that prize.

0:27:11 Thomas: I

0:27:17 Tom: Right,

0:27:48 Thomas: Think the way you put it is perfect, Eli, in that it isn't like you criminalize this fucking behavior or anything, but it's like, hey, men who are doing this, like, you might fucking suck. Yeah.

0:27:53 Eli: Yeah, of course. That sucks. Yeah.

0:27:57 Thomas: No, I totally agree when we put it that way, but do we want to talk about the kink component? Cause I know Eli, that's something, you know, a lot more about. Cause Um, this is just fucking nonsense.

0:27:58 Tom: Yeah

0:28:04 Eli: I want to talk about the kink component. I want talk about The Polly component, especially because so So something that I don't think I've talked about on this show that I think is important is like, obviously I, did not talk about polyamory for a really, really, really long time, long after I became a public figure. And it was because I wanted Tom to look me in the eyes. Now he doesn't do that anymore. Um, and that's hard for me.

That's no, um, genuinely the reason why I did not talk about polyamore publicly is because it was shorthand for my husband is a creep in our community for a really really long time, right, was sort of like every time I heard someone was polyamorous, it was a fucking countdown until their behavior got outed. And I could think of the two atheist figures who I very specifically was like, hmm, I've heard that person's poly and they're very open about it, I'm gonna, and they got out and for their sexually aggressive Like every, every fucking time. So like, something that I think is, is worth talking about, especially because, I mean, I, I, I will say that I am relatively open about thinking that monogamy is slavery and dirty

0:28:09 Thomas: Hmm. Uh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah., yeah,

0:29:16 Eli: Monogos, like Tom, don't deserve to vote. Like, trying to normalize that and trying to talk about family dynamics and how those things can be as relative normal as something can, anything can be that I participate in, um, Like, I also think it is worth discussing that, like, so polyamory is a cape for a lot of victimizers, right? And I will say this, I will genuinely say this. Since I started to talk about non-monogamy, I, I want to say, I am extremely careful around listeners of all genders, right? I'm aware of what my podcast character is like. I'm aware of the way I act on stage.

I'm aware of the way I literally dress on stage, right? There is a lot of sexuality in the vibe, and I strive not to make people uncomfortable when they come up for that handshake or that picture or whatever the case might be.

Since I have started talking about non-monogamy, I have been treble secure about that, because I think that a lot of people who, when they just thought of me as a married person, right, have felt safer probably. And maybe this is just me and my self-judgment and the shaming that Tom has driven into me with his text messages, I think there are probably a

0:29:28 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:30:26 Eli: Lot people who feel less safe around me now that I've talked about those things Yeah. Well, For sure. I mean, to be, be fair, you get my text messages, Tom, and those, those photos, they can't be deleted, you know what I'm, no matter how many times I just resend them. So, so I think that's important to talk about kink. I want to talk about kink. So this also gets into my not cash money experiences and a moment from the article I really want to talk about that I've especially seen Gaiman's apologist talking about. So my not cash money experience was in the kink community, right.

And it was someone who introduced kink to me very quickly in very extreme ways, while only sort of cursorily explaining safety tools to me. Right. Was sort of aware from popular culture that there was a thing called a safe word. I was aware that there were things like yes and no, but I wasn't aware of things like will want won't lists. I wasn't aware of the conversations that need to happen before a scene, right? And again, this is the pornification of kink, right, when you look up

0:30:25 Tom: I do, that's for sure Yeah.

0:30:31 Thomas: Right

0:31:33 Tom: This

0:31:33 Eli: Kink stuff on Pornhub, Tom's greatest enemy, when you look kink up kinks stuff, you don't watch people talk through a scene. Right? Because it's not particularly sexy to talk through the scene. Now, it's way sexy not to rape somebody. It's like the best, right.

0:31:47 Thomas: So Hot, yeah.

0:31:48 Eli: But the like, hey, how about this? How do you feel about these things? Oh, okay. Not your favorite. All right. When you say not your favorite, like clarifying and letting it be awkward and sort of having those moments where you ask and someone says no, and then you sort of have to reorient. Those are all awkward conversations that adults have to have with each other in a genuinely kink positive relationship. Right. And I got none of that. Right? Would just sort of be told this is about to happen. Yay or nay. Right, like I was voting on a proposal in Congress.

Chris and I not understand that relationship was unhealthy until I was much much older, one because there was a pretty significant age difference between me and this person I was talking to, but two, because, and this is what I want to talk about, there's, there's a thing that, uh, um, have pointed out, which is that the first victim who is mentioned in the article eventually texted him that their relationship was consensual and wonderful. And I don't want to speak to her experience. What I will speak to is that that is a very classic abuser trick, right? Tell you how many abusers have used the I had a bad dream last night, comfort me now, by saying our relationship was consentual. And what, what I want to say, speaking from my own experience, is that the person who was, who treated me not well, right.

Reached out to me five or six years after that relationship and was like, Hey, I feel like there were some moments that were not super cash money. And I just want to check in and make sure you're okay. And what they did with that reach out was not genuinely touch base with me to see how I felt. They put the onus on me, right?

Talk to this person who I haven't talk to and say, hey, that wasn't a good way to treat another person. Hey, now that I'm the age you were when you met me, I would not do that to a person who was my age, and I think you need to reflect on the person you were, right? All that onus immediately went on me, right? And so I said, very happily, as a, you know, 22 year old, however old I was at the time, right, 25, 26, right, I was like, oh, oh, no, it's gray.

0:32:06 Thomas: Yeah.

0:33:55 Thomas: Yeah, it

0:33:56 Eli: So good to hear from you. What's, how's your mom? Right. Something that I think blurs the lines for people here is that, like, yeah, sometimes victims develop a fondness for their victimizers. Right. Right. And sometimes victims cope with a thing that they're not enjoying by telling themselves and their abuser that it was OK. And that doesn't make it OK. Right. Notion that it makes it OK comes from a very innocent till proven guilty mindset that comes explicitly from the notion of people who want to put sexual abuse in a frame of guilty or innocent. Right. A legal framework. Right. So that men can get away with anything except pretty much stranger rape.

0:34:42 Thomas: Really. Reminds me of the classic, and I'm sure this still happens but hopefully not as much anymore, the classic workplace thing where the fucking dude making the racist or sexist jokes in front of the whole workplace is like, yeah, but you're cool with these jokes, right? You're great with these Like, like you get it, like you, it's like putting all that pressure into them saying they're okay, you know, and not genuinely like having any interest in that, that

0:34:42 Eli: Right, right. Exactly. Of Yeah.

0:35:06 Tom: Feels too very much like yet another example of the problem of the consent model for trying to approach sex and sexuality, like We've talked about this before, but like, consent, idea of like consent, I am allowed to do something. Like, I think there's a lot of folks that are trying to become allowed to do things to somebody rather than making sure that they find a place of mutual pleasure and joy. And that's a problem. Be wary of ourselves. We should have a moment of personal introspection if what we're most concerned about is what we are allowed to be. To do to someone rather than, are we sharing a joyful and pleasurable experience together? Like, I don't care what parameters, what are negotiated where that joy and pleasure come together. Like, that's fucking between y 'all. But like, when we think about, man, here are the things I want to do to you, like, will you let me? That's a fucking problem.

0:35:16 Eli: Right? Yeah.

0:35:52 Thomas: Yeah, well that

0:36:07 Tom: And that's built into the word consent.

0:36:08 Eli: How do I sell you into saying the word? Yes.

0:36:10 Tom: Yeah. Like being allowed to do something to somebody is a fucking problem. Like if somebody's like, yeah, I'll let you do that to me. It's like, hold on a minute. Do you want it? Does that sound fun to you? Like, why would I want to do Something? We should interrogate really, that in ourselves. Like, somebody will allow you to do Something, that should not be good enough.

0:36:27 Tom: Ever. That's full stop. You should feel gross about taking something like that and having a, allowing somebody else to have a neutral experience experience, like I think that's a fucking problem I

0:36:26 Eli: Right

0:36:36 Thomas: I asked for feet pics if they weren't a problem I don't know. Why do you have to enjoy

0:36:39 Tom: Sent him I sent

0:36:39 Eli: He's well, you know, it's a jealousy thing for Thomas. Thomas Thomas you remember that joke you remember that joke it's your favorite joke the

0:36:46 Thomas: And feet, feet envy. Yeah, uh is what rich has this gone from the show? It's not here. This is what

0:36:54 Eli: One thing Thomas to the Lydia cut would leave the feet jokes yeah

0:36:55 Thomas: No No, that's not even the Lydia cut. Um, this one component, Tom, to agree that yes, and that, that was what really blew me away. It was one quote in particular where, and again, this was not to my knowledge, there's almost none of that article except, like, I think some at the very end where they bought, where they gave, like, Gaiman's words. Like, this was all from the victim.

So it's not like, it's not like I was taking Gaiman's word for anything, but the way it was described by the victim that like, she first started saying, uh, I think it was through another person that, that one you're talking about where she eventually, you know, phone said like, oh no, it was fine.

Um, he first became aware, however it was that she was maybe not, you was not cash money to use Eli's phrase the he said, oh, I thought we had a good thing. Like I thought, we like, he said it like, oh I thought we were both enjoying this in a way.

And he said it in, was just, just thinking, my guy, what, what is the we? Like, how are you getting that this other person who you just on signed to this, like, humiliation kink that you decided you're doing, where's the part where you thought they were into it? Like, where, what information were you using to

0:38:08 Tom: Right.

0:38:08 Thomas: Be like oh, I thought we both loved this thing where I degrade you that you didn't volunteer for. It's the weirdest thing. It was just like so surreal. Yeah.

0:38:16 Eli: Well it's it's a misunderstanding of kink right because if your understanding of BDSM is I treat you like shit and then I go back to my office and work on Sandman 2 Electric Boogaloo, right? You are not understanding, like, the nature of consensual sadomasochism, right. Like, look, you can play a scene where you do stuff to someone and then you walk away, but you better sure as fuck come right back in the door and be like, hey, you doing okay? Is that fun? You want some cuddles? You want some shoulder rub? Right. If you think that the scene can go forever, I got some hard news for you. You might not be a rapist, but you suck at kink, right?

0:38:41 Thomas: Wait

0:38:54 Tom: Yeah. Know, like, one thing that, that I think is, is, is very true about this, right, is that if as the sort of extremity of your kink interests moves from, like, foot rubs to, like, pissing on somebody, right, like, is a difference. Like, there's, there's a continuum here, right? In terms of what is appropriate to make sure and really be extra careful about, to your point, Eli, up fucking front, right? Because I'll tell you what, the sort of aftercare model, if it is a genuinely frightening, traumatic, or scary experience with somebody, the whole aftercare model is classic abuse, what it doesn't work is it reinforces classic abuse dynamics where you hurt somebody and then you love somebody, and you hurt somebody and you love somebody, and it creates this push-pull that creates an emotional, like, bond with somebody, like, is a classically abusive technique.

So when you're involved in these, like, to your use your phrase, when you're involved in these scenes that have, like, or degradation or any of that kind of stuff like that, can't be something you spring on somebody and then in the moment they're like, yes, it's cool. That's they're having whatever feelings they're having as they're experiencing this, and maybe it's very complicated, like the women in these stories seem to have very complicated feelings around their sexual experiences with Neil Gaiman and around their relationship with Neil Gaiman. I think part of that complication comes from the constant emotional push -pull. Classically, abusers aren't always cruel. Very rarely

0:38:54 Eli: Yeah.

0:39:35 Eli: It doesn't work if you mess up, right? If you haven't gotten consent first, right?

0:40:32 Eli: Yeah.

0:40:32 Tom: Is that the case. Abusers are often cruel and kind in alternating and confusing ways that keep people anchored into that relationship in really problematic fashion, and only does this seem not unlike that, this seems classically the same thing

0:40:48 Thomas: Where was the part where he was, what he did, or are you talking about the hypothetical? Because I, where was he ever nice to any of them? Like, I just sucked, right?

0:40:48 Tom: Right. No, I think that his model is, like, nice, would you know, he's, he's paying their rent. He is checking in.

0:41:00 Eli: You offered financial support and

0:41:00 Thomas: Right. Right.

0:41:02 Tom: He's he's doing a lot of emotional care. And I don't know how much like sexual aftercare he's doing, but I'm just kind of making a broader point that the problem with like post-coital sexual aftercare in the kink community, if it's not prompted before the scene with like your point, Eli, like a lot. A lot of conversation ahead of time is that that's just emotional manipulation. Now, that's all that shit is

0:41:02 Thomas: Oh

0:41:02 Eli: Yeah, right. Yeah.

0:41:24 Thomas: Yeah, if you don't do the first part which was, you consent and enthusiastic consent for the behavior, then, then you're just doing a thing where you're trying to, like, make it OK that you assaulted someone. That's a very different thing.

0:41:25 Tom: Right.

0:41:35 Eli: I mean It, it is genuinely not unlike flying tackling someone in the supermarket, and then when they call the cops, explaining that you're a fan of football ball, like there's just so so

0:41:44 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that's what people struggle with that, because there's so there's only one difference between completely OK behavior and totally fucking insane behavior. And that difference is enthusiastic consent, which is a thing that like you can't really it's sort of abstract in a way. Like, it's almost like it's this informational thing that makes a difference. And I think people really struggle with that where they're like, well, so that's okay. This entire same behavior is okay. As long as it's like, yeah, that is the crucial part. Like it has to be something they enthusiastically consent to, and then it might be fine.

0:42:02 Tom: Yeah.

0:42:21 Eli: Did

0:42:21 Tom: Well, and Like, not to beat a dead horse, but I really do think that a lot of that comes back to the, I will cuddle afterwards. I, I think that, like, a lot of that comes back to the, uh, the way that we think about sex for a lot of people is that they want to get something from someone They want to obtain sex. I would like to get sex. I want to get a blowjob. I want to obtain, I want to get, I like this taking model, and I I think language is very, very telling. I pay a lot of attention to language because I think language tells us all the things we really mean that we're not saying out loud. And we use a lot of language around sex that is very ownership and taking based. And that's why I really hate that word consent. Because consent is a permission or allowance based way to think about sex.

0:42:25 Eli: You get consent from the horse Right.

0:42:37 Eli: Right.

0:43:07 Eli: It's an on-off switch. Yes, you either have it or you don't. The

0:43:10 Tom: But beyond have it or don't, it's like it the other person's joy.

0:43:14 Eli: It's a thing to obtain. Yeah. I I also think, and it's worth pointing out, that, right, enthusiastic informed consent, which does need to be the standard, is awkward, right? It's awkward to ask your partner for a thing and have them say, oh, no, that's not my dance party, right? Nobody wants to do that because it feels like a little bit of a rejection, and message that needs to be sent is that the alternative is sexually assaulting someone, right? It's hard to ask someone out on a date, right?

0:43:16 Tom: Yeah,

0:43:16 Thomas: Right, right, right. Yeah.

0:43:42 Eli: But we understand you're not allowed to just show up at someone's house, right, and be like, do algeris shall we go get some Right?

0:43:46 Thomas: Yeah. Men, similarly, some men don't

0:43:49 Eli: Well, Yeah, sorry. I I shouldn't have never assumed that some men understand these things. Right? So funny. These, like, my, these moments of discomfort, right, that men save themselves at the cost of someone's, like, lasting wellness. And if there's one other thing that I wanted to talk about, because Tom, you brought up something, which is like, I don't surround myself with vulnerable people. And maybe this is like wildly egotistical.

And maybe this is just like, 'cause, 'cause I, I think in a lot of times when men hear, hear these stories, the impulse to pat ourselves on the back is pretty strong. So I want to own that, like, this might be me doing that, but, like, one of the things that struck me as I was reading this article is how similar Gaiman's relationship to his victims is to my relationship with, of a, the young women in my life without the abuse, right? I think about my friend Rachel, who's been, been over on God Awful Movies, who both of you have met, right? Like, I met Rachel when she was 19 years old, right, a college freshman who was briefly dating a friend of mine but then was in a social group that I was the head of, and I was mentoring her. Like, that power dynamic, not intensely one-sided, right? And I think about listeners who I have befriended or people who have entered my, my life with sort of that lopsided power dynamic.

My students, right? Are, you know, 19, 20 years old, very, and often in financial situations that are desperate. Often I am the only teacher who has treated them like a human being, right. I see, I see these moments where the power dynamic is lopsided and is going to sound like such a weird thing to fixate on, but it made me so So deeply sad that he

0:43:49 Thomas: Understand that. Yeah. The same men. Yeah.

0:44:03 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:45:28 Eli: Chose to be a sexual victimizer rather than a mentor, right? Again, using my friend Rachel as the example, like, she is one of the most enriching friendships I've had in my life, and watching her grow and thrive and kick ass and be on, like, TV and, like, write her own show and all that shit. Like, I wouldn't have gotten any of that if I had decided, oh, this is a sexual relationship. I could probably bully her into a sexual relationship.

0:45:31 Tom: Yeah.

0:45:53 Thomas: Maybe She wouldn't have either, you know, like, it's, yeah, it really ruins lives, a

0:45:58 Eli: Like it really does. It ruins lives and it ruins, again, this feels like such a weird thing to say. Ruined everybody's life, right? 'Cause you get to be the hero in someone else's story. You get to genuinely help them and mentor them and be kind to them. And instead you got what? Three of the weird sex sessions you thought about. It just, it fucking sucks. Me, it sucks so much that we have this opportunity to do great things for our fellow human beings, to treat them in a way they will remember, to affect their life in a way that is truly wonderful, and that we traded in for a fucking half-imagined thought during a yank session. You know what I'm saying? Is that crazy, is he?

0:46:05 Thomas: Yeah.

0:46:05 Tom: Yeah.

0:46:40 Thomas: %

0:46:41 Tom: No, that's not crazy at all. I think that, that, mean, a lot of people are looking at relationships with other people as, what's, what's in this for me and What they miss in that, like, myopic view is that being a mentor to other people is as rewarding, if done well, for you to mentor as the mentee. You got to take a longer view and step back and, like, focus on other people first, and there's a huge number of people that just don't want to do that.

0:46:41 Thomas: No Yeah. No Yeah, yeah.

0:46:41 Eli: Yeah. Mm -hmm. Yeah.

0:47:05 Tom: Yeah.

0:47:06 Thomas: It, I think there's, um, really good, uh, point that I've read that's kind of the other side of, of that, Eli, which is another downside of this whole thing, is that if men take that kind of attitude to be like, "Well, great. Now I'm, even if it's well-intentioned, to be like, 'Wow, I'm just going to not put myself in that position. I'm just going not put in the position of ever having someone that I, you know, is vulnerable and more powerful.'" Well, yeah, due to the power dynamics of our world, that means a whole bunch of men who have the power to mentor people or, or to take on the grad student or to do with the whatever, now if they're a woman, which just, you reinforces the very inequality that leads that to a lot of this stuff. And sort of reminds me when the police are like, "Oh, I'm not allowed to just murder people. Fine. No good police work.

0:47:54 Thomas: Then we're done. And you're just like, yeah, that can't be the answer. The answer could it has be, to be, be a normal, good person and just don't, try to help someone for the purpose of fucking sexually assaulting them.

0:47:54 Eli: No cops. Right. Yeah, do your job. Stop killing dogs. Yeah

0:48:05 Tom: Like, know we're over, but I have to, like, add to that, Thomas, because I, like, embedded in that mindset is such a deep misogyny because, because those people are basically saying, even if I behave well, I don't trust women not to ruin my life with, with false accusations.

0:48:12 Thomas: Yeah. Right. Yeah. It tells me you don't actually believe that any victims are telling the truth.

0:48:20 Eli: Right.

0:48:20 Tom: Right? Right. So there is a deep misogyny built into that. That is a person you should look at and be like, you can't be trusted because either you don't trust you or you don't like women, right. There' s no middle ground there.

0:48:26 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:48:32 Eli: Yeah. Mm. -hmm, right. And even the way we talk about these accusations, right? So-and-so has been accused, right? When there's never a serial killer or a mass shooter and we're like, "This person has been accused," or, right, they're just like, "That guy shot four people," right? They fucking with

0:48:46 Thomas: I will say I, I, that, that I do think legally there.

0:48:49 Eli: One. One beautiful exception, one beautiful curly-haired exception, an innocent sweet boy who I was with the whole time, old dads, we were having consensual, enthusiastic, informed, consensual sex. And I will say that right to a judge's face, while dressed as his mom.

0:48:53 Tom: Oh, my God.

0:48:56 Thomas: Yeah. He was doing crazy sex stuff to me.

0:49:17 Eli: Right, you guys ready for a parenting story?

0:49:18 Tom: I am ready for a parenting story.

0:49:19 Thomas: No. You got to do your joke, dummy. What the fuck?

0:49:22 Eli: Right, I'm sorry, gentlemen. Before we leave, why does the Vatican smell so good? Because of all the potpourri.

0:49:26 Thomas: Oh.

0:49:24 Tom: Dummy. Me oh lord oh okay that was the best way that was gonna go let's

0:49:33 Thomas: That's So good. Oh! I love that. That's a great one. I love that one. Fucking

0:49:35 Eli: All

0:49:42 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, tom smith who also wrote and recorded the intro music which is used with his permission this podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC copyright 2022 all rights reserved

0:50:24 Eli: Sex is bad. By the way, this is Stephanie. We met at one of our shows, but since then we've had a really deep connection, right? She's just like a

0:50:26 Tom: That's