DOD181: Let's Talk about Neil Gaiman...

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad. That's my thing. I know now what I can offer you that no one else can. Complete and utter dependence. I'm a man. I'm sensitive. I need to feel loved. I need to be desired.

0:00:22 Clip: Telling is the only part of being a father that I enjoy.

0:00:29 Tom: To Dear Old Dads the podcast that is definitely not meeting its heroes I'm Tom Curry I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick hello gentlemen

0:00:39 Eli: You talking about time you get to podcast with me every week here I am welcome tomifer

0:00:45 Tom: Have guys have heroes or idols or people people that you've in your life looked up to or like celebrity type folks like that? Yeah? Like a don't meet your heroes kind of mentality and I also kind of had like maybe don't have heroes, maybe just like the stuff they do. Like the time I had an opportunity to actually meet in person like a musician that I really liked, there's this guy William Elliot Whitmore that I Really Really Like and Haley and I went to one of his shows. He played out in like DeKalb County at some dive bar and he's like not terribly well known and so he's just like selling his own merch and I was like oh this is super cool and I walked up to him and I Was like wait I definitely should not meet this guy what if he sucks I've liked this guy like I've been waiting to see this guy live for literally 12 years and

0:00:54 Eli: Right

0:01:31 Thomas: Man.

0:01:31 Tom: I was like maybe don't meet him maybe don'T meet him and then I was Like now I'm gonna meet him he was super great like he was a super nice guy really generous played the song that I want him to play I was okay if you could play midnight that because He goes, yeah, yeah. Sure. I'll throw it in the set. Like he threw that song in his set for me. He was a total sweetheart of a guy.

0:01:47 Tom: Yeah, it was awesome. It was awesome, so I'm batting 1 ,000. I'm never going to do it again.

0:01:46 Eli: That rules no

0:01:48 Thomas: Man, Yeah, well, I was going to say, I mean, you could just have heroes that aren't men and then it's fine.

0:01:58 Tom: Not male here. No.

0:02:00 Thomas: It's like, yeah, don't meet your hero. Oh, oh, every woman is your hero is probably fine. Like, there's no problem there.

0:02:06 Tom: That's probably true.

0:02:07 Thomas: Yeah, like, I'm just realizing, like a lot of musicians.

0:02:08 Tom: That's probably true. You know who are not cash money? Neither Penn nor Teller, in my experience, were those yeah! The first time Cecil and I went to the first like uh you know atheist or skeptical event we went to was uh the amazing meeting and like fuck we're old so I don't know like like a million years ago it

0:02:27 Eli: A meeting of not cash money individuals if ever there was one

0:02:30 Tom: Was I mean like like we met like randy he was real nice guy but like by met

0:02:34 Thomas: He was in his thirties at the time. That's how old, that's how old Tom.

0:02:37 Tom: He was just learning to drive no but like yeah he like he was nice in the sense that like he I think people were pointing him in a general direction and he was happy to take photos you know what I mean right yeah exactly yeah right yeah but like both penn and teller were just total dicks like they were just absolutely above it all unwilling to like stop and meet anybody unwilling tolike acknowledge that they weren't the biggest they werejust assholes for

0:02:47 Eli: Joe biden nice forever

0:03:04 Thomas: I'm not necessarily the judgment there, Tom, but I have met actually met a bunch of Sharks players at an event and have realized that I think we need to give a pass possibly for people who have to meet strangers all day long. If they're kind of aloof or just like sort of out of, you know, like there's a difference between, oh, they have to meat a kajillion people. So they're past it. You know, how long can you do that? You know how long can you have that energy uh

0:03:30 Eli: Forever for your whole life because Cause that's your job.

0:03:34 Tom: Here's the thing about that like if you're a shark I agree with you if youre a sharks player right if you are a sharks player your job is to play hockey your

0:03:34 Thomas: It depends on what you mean is to play hockey so you could punch me or something and I'd be like yeah sweet that's that's what you do in the game

0:03:44 Tom: That's your job like fame element of it is secondary to the job right it's not what you're trying to produce but like Penn and Teller are trying to reduce the fame part that's what they're out there selling like if I go to a conference right like I know I'm a small fish but let's talk small fish and ponds here if I I go to a conference and I'm at the bar, I have an obligation to be friendly and jovial, even if I'm tired.

0:04:10 Tom: And when I'm too tired for that, I got to leave the bar. Like my energy for that runs out, what I shouldn't do is hang out in that public space and be rude to people. That's assholery, right?

0:04:20 Thomas: That's weird I also think it's a particular accomplishment to your whole thing as a performer is not talking and you're still an asshole that's like that should should be like ah finally I can talk uh

0:04:31 Eli: Finally. I'm so excited to hear about people's. Yeah. I mean your job, Tom, you put it perfectly right. Your job when you are producing that stuff. And we, we experienced this in skepticism, right? Your job is to give someone as good an experience as you can possibly give while maintaining your boundaries.

0:04:47 Thomas: I think you're right that it does depend on some things in context but I just I there's stories of like oh I saw this actor and try you know actress and tried to get their attention get an autograph and they were rude to me it's like yeah but they're in a restaurant like or something you you know, it's like, yeah,

0:05:02 Tom: I feel like that's different. I agree with you there. Like I feel that the context matters. If some guy's out like buying groceries, it's fucking gauche to approach him at all right like let the guy buy groceries but if he's at an event like if you're at an even called pay attention to me at 3 o 'clock you don't think at 4 15 you get to be like well I can't believe you would talk to me yeah get the fuck out of here like actually fucking get out of her

0:05:12 Eli: Well, I'm a private person, right? Yeah. Yeah. I'll I'll throw a hot take out there with a caveat. The first is that I think actresses can be much more guarded than actors can, because at any moment they might be like literally physically attacked. Let me give you my hot take. If you're an actor and you're out at lunch and you'RE famous enough that someone's going to come up to you at lunch, you got to fucking do it you know why because your prize was being Brad Pitt if I was Brad Pitt levels of famous you could gently place a finger in my ear if you see me at fucking lunch because do you know what my reward for being that famous was 100 million dollars a number 100 million times higher than it would take to get me to kill a guy like the um the idea that it is somehow like oh well they're doing no you don't get any privacy anymore actor actor you DON'T GET ANY PRIVACY ANYMORE YOU DON'T GET AN AUTONOMY ANY MORE YOU

0:05:44 Thomas: Man.

0:06:22 Eli: GOT A HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS yeah you know what you could do you know you can do you can move to an island with your hundred million dollars and throw dollar bills at the wall for the rest of your life is what you can DO the notion that they get to just Just be regular folk, except for Oscar night when they get to take a selfie with Ellen. Like, fuck you. Pick. Or privacy? Fucking pick.

0:06:22 Thomas: That sounds like hell. Yeah. I don't know about that.

0:06:24 Tom: Insane that's insane no no that's crazy I completely disagree agree I know it's context dependent

0:06:46 Eli: You're wrong.

0:06:46 Thomas: I also think it's weird. The jobs we decide are that like Like there's plenty of jobs, you know, like you mentioned hockey player, their jobs play hockey. But honestly, that's just because no one gives a shit about the sport of hockey except me. Like there're NBA players where they're treated like actors and people have that same logic of like, yeah, it's your job, you're famous. And what's weird is people who are like, I don't know, directors or cinematographers, no one give a shit. They're like doing pretty much the same thing. Saying their job is to produce the same product essentially know who never gets a break is the auto ads that's right they are always signing autographs

0:07:06 Eli: 100%. Yeah. The auto ends. Yes. Intruding into your private life like so many fans of the celebrities of your podcasting experience. But you can put an end to them by being caught being a horrible sexual predator. That's right. If you're a sexual predator of just a virulent nature, we'll stop using auto ads on your podcast. We'll actually find out and we'll send it individually. And I don't say this enough, but I think it's time that we come out. We actually do control the volume of the auto ads. We pick the volume for every auto ad. We really lower. We sort of do the fade tool on the podcast and then we really come in there. We're doing it live you don't know that yeah no we push the the button ourselves but you can make all of those things stop over at patreon.com/dearolddads where you'll get a commercial-free version of every single episode little parenting story at the end and hey I don't want to tease you but your boys got a good one this week so if ever you were considering signing signing up this might be the week patreon.com/dearolddads rip into it

0:07:36 Tom: This is Christ I

0:07:51 Thomas: I'm on the fader yeah I'm

0:08:00 Tom: Like the randomized feature we use yeah that's good yeah god

0:08:32 Thomas: I think the time to sign up was get a time machine sign up last week because I just the parenting story of eli spilling his water and then not Not knowing how things work is one of the funniest. I listened to that like three times. It's so fucking funny.

0:08:45 Eli: Enjoy it everybody enjoy it

0:08:43 Tom: This is one of those stories that like I was like fuck I don't want to introduce it it's like this is whoo

0:08:52 Thomas: I like it. We've totally avoided talking about the fucking guy. Good thing I didn't know anything about this guy and I've never read him. So I can I can. Can handle it.

0:08:55 Tom: Well let

0:09:02 Eli: We jump in we should probably do a quick trigger warning for folks like we generally don't avoid like swearing or graphic descriptions of sex but we might get into some graphic descriptions of not cash money experiences uh and if you are a person who doesn't need that in your life we will understand uh

0:09:17 Tom: Say the least yeah yeah

0:09:17 Thomas: Skip to that parenting story that Eli's teasing.

0:09:23 Eli: Go to that or honestly skip the so skip the side you know what I'm saying a lot episodes where where we keep it chill and fun and light. So light, ever so light, like a baby's touch.

0:09:25 Tom: To the patreon if you're yeah super trigger warning episode yeah yeah this not one of them so this is we're going to talk about the sexual allegations um neil gaiman in this episode I I actually remember the first time I was introduced to Neil Gaiman was like, fuck that shit.

0:09:39 Thomas: Don't know about that.

0:09:48 Eli: Innocent till proven guilty. That's our thought

0:09:51 Tom: Guilty as fuck. Like allegedly, allegedly, just for the purposes of not getting sued, I'll say allegedly. And then I'll add winky fucking face.

0:09:51 Eli: Here. Those eight people who don't know each other are probably making stuff up. Feel pretty safe. I feel really safe. I feel very safe here.

0:10:03 Tom: I bro. I know.

0:10:05 Eli: I'll take that lawsuit. Neil Gaiman is suing a parenting podcast for for numbers sure

0:10:13 Thomas: You but if he decided to do that we'd have to come up with a literal million dollars to defend ourselves like just just just FYI hey

0:10:18 Eli: Tom's

0:10:14 Tom: But I so we everybody knows allegedly everything

0:10:22 Thomas: Just everybody knows the whole thing where everybody's oh oh uh truth is an absolute defense uh yeah truth plus a million million fucking dollars. Just and if you ever, I'm not even joking. This is like my new, like, like my social cause. If you ever hear anyone say truth is an absolute defense to defamate or whatever, just always add truth plus a literal million dollars, which really puts it into context. Like not a lot of people have, a lot Of people have truth.

0:10:24 Tom: Everything we say is allegedly does kind of add a little perspective to it yeah

0:10:49 Thomas: Whole lot of people have true. Not a lot. Of people of truth plus 1 million fucking.

0:10:53 Eli: Feel free to speak from your experience but just speaking from my own sending their lawyer back a letter that says I will dress like your mom very successful very successful over at puzzle in a thunderstorm LLC I could say two confirmed successes no game and I'll I'll dress like your mom. And that's funny. Cause she was a Scientologist. So I'll bring the little e -meter things and I'll be like, Ooh,

0:11:09 Tom: Jesus christ so she was a, yeah he did, he did grow up in, like, fucking weird Scientology shit, so he's had a fucking weird life, I will say that, like fucking, this guy, this is not like a defense at all, it's not an excuse at all I'm just, it, it just an aside, fucking guy has had a weird fucking life you know, and I do wonder with some people like that, like, there any chance this person was gonna grow up normal? You know what I mean, like a, was it just like a hundred, not this, and it's again Again, not an excuse, but I just wonder like at some point, like it's just like, yeah, things aren't going to be normal for this guy. So anyway, Neil Gaiman rose to fame really with the writing of the Sandman comics, which I read myself back in the mid 90s are actually the I think the only comic series other than Mouse that I've actually the graphic novels that I'm not into graphic novels or comics.

0:12:00 Tom: Never liked them, but blew me away. I will tell you that like they fucking blew me way. I was incredible. I had a friend that really pressed me to read him. He's like you gotta read these I'm like I don't know he handed them to me like loaned me made me read them they blew me away and they were great and I think a lot of people had a similar experience and I Think that I've read probably everything that neil gaiman has written I missed something it was by accident yeah no

0:12:00 Thomas: It's one more than me well but here's the thing tom to protect your own ego though don't you want to say oh but it was bad all along it was totally the worst writing and I knew it was actually bad even though I was a huge fan of it no I'm just I'm teasing I like I appreciate you not doing that because I that is my least fucking favorite thing like I loved harry potter we all all loved Harry Potter. Not Tom was in his fifties when it came out, but Eli and I fucking loved Harry potter. Oh, Tom did too. Yeah. I'm there are critiques of that, that I maybe didn't think of when I was a kid. Sure. But there were great fucking kids books. Like they just were, really entertaining.

0:12:33 Tom: It's great like right right I fucking hate that shit yeah I loved harry potter no I I yeah yeah sure I read him not as a kid I did I read em I read hem as like uh I think I readem out of college and I was like these are good books cuz they're good books right

0:13:03 Eli: I think, I think I think the impulse to that comes in two directions, right? The first is the people who wanted to cry you for still enjoying the thing or the people who, who, didn't like the thing and now want to like, um, their dislike of the thing right I think for them and this is especially true of harry potter is like when that thing happened when that person turned out to be a sack of shit it was ruined for them right

0:13:26 Thomas: For sure. Nothing wrong wrong with that. Nothing wrong with that.

0:13:28 Eli: It's it's not okay for the thing itself to not be ruined for you right like when you say to someone hey I can separate the art from the artist I think what what a lot of people hear is I have reserved a space of okayness where you don't have okayness, right? I feel safe and comfortable here in a place that you don'T feel safe and comfortable. And I empathize with that. I do. Uh, but it is a part of growing up and understanding that actually you don't get to tell other people where their comfort begins and their comfort ends, especially when they're saying, Hey, I match up with this person. The other side of that, the other side of the he was a bag of shit all along is have I know south park is problematic and shitty nowadays but do you remember the tiger woods episode so in the tigerwoods episode it is genuinely one of the best parodies of this problem that's ever been published in media so basically the boys find out that tiger woods has cheated on his wife and all the adults adults pretend that there is a wizard making famous men cheat on their wives so

0:13:46 Tom: No

0:13:59 Thomas: 100%. Yeah.

0:14:14 Tom: Know

0:14:14 Thomas: No.

0:14:33 Tom: Wait

0:14:34 Eli: Then the fbi gets involved and they're hunting down this wizard and just as they're about to hunt down the wizard one of the like army guys is like come on guys like we there's not actually a wizard in here we have to and then in the next scene they very clearly dressed him up as the wizard and shoot him think this impulse comes from that place right which is saying that is a bad man Right. That is an evil, bad man with an evil black heart who does evil things. And he's always been evil. He's a fluke of nature and time, as opposed to this is a problem of how we teach men to think about fame. This is a problems of how socialize men generally is a much harder conversation to have, especially if you're a man. Right I was thinking about and the reason why I wanted to do this episode is something that I think we don't talk about enough that directly leads to the game and thing is and this reminds me of uh last week or a couple weeks ago whenever we were talking about the sort of men as provider thing which is that our culture teaches men through media and through socialization that That there is a level of fame, a level of money, or a level of power in which you will be entitled to random, anonymous, kinky sex. The women in your life will suddenly become objects who want to bring sex to you at a stage door, like it's freshly baked cookies, and you are now entitled to take that sex. And all of this non -consensual content that we're going to talk about, all of this contact, it does not come from the fact that Neil Gaiman is an evil person who sat in his chair going, I'm going to do an evil thing. I'm gonna rape people. I am going to assault people. It came from the fact he has been inundated with culture's message to men that when you reach a certain level of power, fame, or money, you are entitled to this sex. Sex is a thing you just get to take from other people. And you don't.

0:14:50 Tom: What

0:16:34 Thomas: Yeah I didn't think about that component because I mean we didn't really detail it and we don't have to but it does seem like from my reading of this um this was a bizarre one I'll be honest when I read this article this was the fucking weird one now it has some of the same things that all these abusers have but like this idea that you're just going to enter into instantly like one -sidedly extreme like bdsm behavior with someone without pride like I don't care how famous you are you You don't get to just skip the part where you had the consent talk like that.

0:17:07 Thomas: I didn't know that like anyone could think that like that is a weird thing to think.

0:17:07 Eli: Well and that's another thing worth discussing is the pornification of kink right because there's a there is a tremendous no one talks about real kink right no one talks about kink because no one admits to being kinky right nobody ever in right in mainstream culture right everyone

0:17:27 Thomas: Well, like in mainstream culture. I agree. I agree with that. They portray it really fucking stupidly.

0:17:32 Eli: And the way that kink a is always portrayed is without any of the safety tool that and healthy consensual kink has to involve right

0:17:40 Thomas: Absolutely. Fifty Shades of Grey or whatever the fuck.

0:17:43 Eli: Exactly and what we see in Gaiman and I want to talk about the kink side of things because I think it is important right but what we See in Gaiman's behavior right that one -sided nature exactly what you just spoke about right have seen in a thousand movies right it's in wolf of wall street it's an every depiction of a rock star it's every depiction of a rapper it's just the groupies waiting this is a person who felt entitled to sex from this one -sided sexual relationship because he is famous and culture has informed him over and over and over again that fame or power or money entitles you to sex for other people yeah

0:18:18 Thomas: Understand the cultural message of famous dudes get to kind of fuck whoever they want we've definitely sent that powerful cultural message the part where you add in and you get to do fucking whatever without the consent talk that's fucking deeply disturbing and like I I I genuinely wonder it's not it's non -important and I want to emphasize that this is just something I wonder in my brain just out of curiosity if neil gaiman like he don't even know if he understands that he did something wrong like And after reading that, I was like, what? Like, how could you just think you can skip the consent? Like, but the the way he's depicted and not even in his words, just the way like he's depicted by the victims in the article, it's like, does I he not even understand that he's a rapist? You want to emphasize not important. Just me wondering that doesn't change anything he did.

0:18:59 Tom: I feel like just to yeah I I but like I I like I want to offer like another like don't know perspective on that the similar no the similarity the similarities between the way that he like uh he treated those women feel like you guys guys watch it's always sunny in philadelphia so

0:19:09 Eli: Sex is bad.

0:19:13 Thomas: I watched the first season back in the 70s when it came out

0:19:21 Tom: Like that's a great show but like there's there's an episode where dennis is describing the dennis method of sexual manipulation of a woman right like how to manipulate her into this like abusive relationship it's a it's really like it's actually really telling because it's it really demonstrates that like there are people that have a method what it seems to me from gaiman's behavior is that he's got a method like got a method in terms of who he selects who he who he singles out

0:19:46 Thomas: Interesting

0:19:49 Eli: He's got a method. He's Got a Circle of Enablers.

0:19:52 Tom: Like he's not like having this kind of problematic sex with people that are his age his financial level they're always 30 40 years younger they're Always incredibly financially desperate and and he is very much not they I patterns that just are so trackable that like for me I'm like yeah like he knows like he knows and he knows explicitly to himself in words he says inside of his head I will allegedly so like that's I want to be sure that like that is how I feel about it because it's so systematic it doesn't appear in any way that it's plausible plausible that he's like, yeah, I mean, I just thought this was normal that as a 61 year old guy, I'm going to hit on a 22 year old who's got no fucking secure housing, who relies on me for her food and her board and her rent, who has a history of, you abuse and who has no family relationships.

0:20:53 Eli: Single parent with cancer who's living on my land.

0:20:57 Tom: Yeah. I mean he's, he's picking the most vulnerable people. People, that's not an accident. Like it's not even an accident that you're around people that are like that all the time either. Right. Don't have a ton of people like that in my life because I'm not cultivating vulnerable people in my social circle with the intent to sexually abuse them. And it just feels like allegedly that's what Neil Gaiman was doing in this. Like, because cause again it's so patterned well

0:21:28 Thomas: Remember the one that was that but what what were the other ones were they just uh two

0:21:33 Eli: Were babysitters, readers, two readers. A who was a friend who, yes, there was a friend who was living on his property because she was going through a divorce and they were

0:21:37 Thomas: But more than one babysitter oh jesus that's the one I keep thinking of that's a different one I thought that was

0:21:48 Tom: So the first one was this like 22 year old girl who came over and unhoused

0:21:52 Eli: Unhoused. Ran

0:21:53 Thomas: Fucking a no that one that's the one I remember and I'm now realizing maybe the pattern was so consistent I I might have blanked and thought it was the same person

0:21:53 Eli: Palmer on the street. Yeah.

0:21:54 Tom: Her own parents yeah I seriously thomas like you could be forgiven for that yeah you could be forgiving for actually having them kind of blend together because not because they as as individuals aren't important but because the pattern is so is so severe but I know you're gonna like make fun of me like all sex is bad I don't believe that I actually want to add like something that that counters that that encounters that like I I I

0:22:04 Thomas: Shit wow yeah okay that's that's wow wow I've had sex at least once

0:22:23 Eli: Have six. As long as she promises not to turn the lights out.

0:22:28 Tom: Think there's something to be said though for not stripping fans and groupies of their agency I don don't really buy the idea that fans or groupies inherently are more vulnerable and do not want to have sex with celebrities or stars or you stars or football players or writers or whatever and don't have any agency to make that choice like and I know no one is saying that but like I like that is part of some of the messaging and I don't like that because it's nonsense it's just complete nonsense

0:22:50 Thomas: I I agree with that yeah I think some people do and it's dumb yeah it's infantilizing too like if a fully adult ass woman is a fan of an author and is like boy I'd love to hook up with that author I fucking

0:22:59 Eli: It's but can we come over here to the judgment corner guys step over here with the judgment partner because the fans the groupies if they will they're over there no judgment you want to fuck your favorite author fuck your favourite author let's talk over here hey authors what the fuck are you doing fucking your fans gross fuck

0:23:19 Tom: Wait why is that I don't know that it's necessarily gross I think it's gross when when the people are very very young or very very vulnerable but if everybody is an adult that and there's not this like weird insane power dynamic I think two grown people regardless of whether or not one of them has a a fan relationship or not can have sex with the other person.

0:23:20 Eli: A grown -up well

0:23:39 Tom: I don't know why that's a problem.

0:23:39 Thomas: I agree with Tom. I, I think when we went through that can training, I actually thought it's a perfectly like way to view it. Like absolutely a million and one ways that it could be problematic, but there are plenty of ways that It may not be. And I, I always found it weird. There are are plenty of other ways that people are like, hey, men, why don't you work on yourself and have a hobby or an interest that makes you interesting to women or something like that? You know, like, like take up something that makes you interesting to just average guy advice. But if you get too good at it, no, you actually can't, you know what I mean? Like it's kind of a weird thought.

0:23:53 Tom: It's not necessarily. Yeah. Yeah well I married somebody that was a listener to the show right

0:24:18 Thomas: We also should remember that, I guess. Eli.

0:24:20 Tom: Like I like I don'T I DON'T think that that wasn't a problematic power dynamic. I just don't believe that I don't believe that Haley

0:24:26 Eli: She was a fan of my show first so she her were always ameliorated because she was like oh my gosh gosh, third or fourth best podcast. Like, I can't wait to meet this guy. You know what I'm saying?

0:24:29 Tom: You believe that she didn't have agency she had all the agency in the world like just because she happened to and again like you know my celebrity is zero out of a thousand right it's very minor I'm not trying to pretend I'm anything here but

0:24:50 Eli: And want I to be clear that I'm not talking about their agency. I'm talking about the famous person in that situation. Right. And again, I'm Not talking about the person who dates and then marries the fan. Right. Because that's relatively common. Right? And I think everybody is on board for that. That that's, that's just how those two people met.

0:25:08 Tom: Wouldn't there be some people prior to that that you dated that you didn't marry that you were sleeping with at some point like why like you know yeah

0:25:13 Eli: So No, what I, what I'm talking about, and I want to be very clear that I'm not like problematizing this, right. I don't think it is inherently predatory, right? I'm just over here in judgment corner. Like if the place that you hunt for poon is your fans.

0:25:29 Thomas: Maybe tom and I think you're thinking of the the more pure version of it you know like hey there's someone who's a fan of uh maybe your work and like you talk to them about it and they're interested and it's like deep conversation there's another component of it where men like if it's a shitty dude who now is like okay I have to put even less effort into caring about this person as a human being like I can just be like okay group of people who are already into me let me put no effort in at all and not have to treat them as people it becomes an extension of that sexism of like not looking at women as people and that I think is uh uh in a lot of that that dynamic and that I think is a different thing

0:26:08 Tom: Well the thing that you said eli that I'll just like latch on to and say like if you're a person and you're thinking about it as hunting for poon and I know you're just using it as a joke but like a lot of people aren't then you're problem no matter what

0:26:19 Eli: that'S a hundred percent a great point right

0:26:22 Tom: I agree on both of you like both of your levels that you just said like what you said thomas yeah and like what But you said, Eli, yeah. So like if I'm some celebrity writer or whatever, and I'm thinking about people as something I get to fuck instead of a person, right? If I'm hunting for a poon, then like, yeah, I am a problematic person and I am inherently leveraging a power dynamic in that way to avoid seeing people as fully human. I am doing that intentionally and that I think is a problem because you're objectifying other people in ways that they probably don't want to be objectified

0:26:36 Eli: Right and that anonymity right that lack of humanhood is part of that message about celebrity right because what do we see in wolf of wall street what do you see in the rap videos right it does he doesn't like stop the rock music video and to be like and by the way this is stephanie we met at one of our shows but since then we've had a really deep connection right she's just like a naked lady grinding on his leg Right. And it's just the message they get sent over and over that these women you are going to meet are not people. They are not human beings with wants and needs. They're salacious side in your story where you're the main character. Right. Right. And that's a big part of it. Right. Is we tell men over and over and over again, you're the main character. You're the hero. This is your well deserved rise to power. And kinky sex with whoever is part of that prize.

0:27:48 Thomas: Think the way you put it is perfect Eli in that it isn't like you criminalize this fucking behavior or anything but it's like hey men who are doing this, like you might fucking suck. Yeah.

0:27:54 Eli: Of course. That sucks. Yeah.

0:27:57 Thomas: No, I totally agree when we put it that way, but do we want to talk about the kink component? Cause I know Eli, that's something, you know, a lot more about. Cause Um, this is just fucking nonsense.

0:28:04 Eli: I want to talk about the kink component. I want talk about The Polly component, especially because so So something that I don't think I've talked about on this show that I think is important is like, obviously I, did not talk about polyamory for a really, really, really long time, long after I became a public figure. And it was because I wanted Tom to look me in the eyes. Now he doesn't do that anymore. Um, and that's hard for me. That's no, um, genuinely the reason why I did not talk About polyamore publicly is because it was shorthand for my husband is a creep. In our community for a really really long time right was sort of like every time I heard someone was polyamorous it was a fucking countdown until their behavior got outed and I could think of the two atheist figures who I very specifically was like hmm I've heard that person's poly and they're very open about it I'm gonna and they got out and for their sexually aggressive like every every fucking time so like something that I think is is worth talking about especially because I mean I I I will say that I am relatively open about thinking that monogamy is slavery and dirty

0:29:16 Eli: Monogos like tom don't deserve to vote like trying to normalize that and trying to talk about family dynamics and how those things can be as relative normal as something can anything can be that I participate in um like I also think it is worth discussing that like So polyamory is a cape for a lot of victimizers, right? And I will say this, I will genuinely say this. Since I started to talk about non-monogamy, I, I want to say, I am extremely careful around listeners of all genders, right? I'm aware of what my podcast character is like. I'm aware of the way I act on stage. I'm aware of the way I literally dress on stage, right there is a lot of sexuality in the vibe and I strive not to make people uncomfortable when they come up for that handshake or that picture or whatever the case might be. Since I have started talking about non -monogamy I have been treble secure about that because I think that a lot of people who when they just thought of me as a married person right have felt safer probably and maybe this is just me and my self -judgment and the shaming that Tom has driven into me with his text messages I think there are probably a

0:30:26 Eli: Lot people who feel less safe around me now that I've talked about those things yeah well for sure I mean to be be fair you get my text messages tom and those those photos they can't be deleted you know what I'm no matter how many times I just resend them so so I think that's important to talk about kink I want to talk About kink so this also gets into my not cash money experiences and a moment from the article I really want to Talk about that I've especially seen gaiman's apologist talking about so my not Cash money experience was in the kink community Right. And it was someone who introduced kink to me very quickly in very extreme ways, while only sort of cursorily explaining safety tools to me. Right. Was sort of aware from popular culture that there was a thing called a safe word. I was aware that there were things like yes and no, but I wasn't aware of things like will want won't lists. I wasn't aware of the conversations that need to happen before a scene, right? And again, this is the pornification of kink, right, when you look up

0:30:25 Tom: I do, that's for sure yeah

0:31:33 Eli: Kink stuff on Pornhub, Tom's greatest enemy, when you look kink up kinks stuff, you don't watch people talk through a scene. Right? Because it's not particularly sexy to talk through the scene. Now, it's way sexy not to rape somebody. It's like the best, right.

0:31:48 Eli: But the like, hey, how about this? How do you feel about these things? Oh, okay. Not your favorite. All right. When you say not your favorite, like clarifying and letting it be awkward and sort of having those moments where you ask and someone says no, and then you sort of have to reorient. Those are all awkward conversations that adults have to have with each other in a genuinely kink positive relationship. Right. And I got none of that. Right? Would just sort of be told this is about to happen. Yay or nay. Right, like I was voting on a proposal in Congress. Chris and I not understand that relationship was unhealthy until I was much much older one because there was a pretty significant age difference between me and this person I was talking to but two because and this is what I want to talk about there's there's a thing that uh um have pointed out which is that the first victim who is mentioned in the article eventually texted him that their relationship was consensual and wonderful and I don't want to speak to her experience what I will speak to is that that is a very classic abuser trick right tell you how many abusers have used the I had a bad dream last night comfort me now by saying our relationship was consentual and what what I want to say, speaking from my own experience is that the person who was, who treated me not well, right. Reached out to me five or six years after that relationship and was like, Hey, I feel like there were some moments that were not super cash money. And I just want to check in and make sure you're okay. And what they did with that reach out was not genuinely touch base with me to see how I felt. They put the onus on me, right? Talk to this person who I haven't talk to and say hey that wasn't a good way to treat another person hey now that I'm the age you were when you met me I would not do that to a person who was my age and I think you need to reflect on the person you were right all that onus immediately went on me right and so I said very happily as a you know 22 year old however old I was at the time right 25 26 right I was like oh Oh, no, it's gray.

0:31:47 Thomas: So hot yeah yeah

0:33:56 Eli: So good to hear from you. What's how's your mom? Right. Something that I think blurs the lines for people here is that, like, yeah, sometimes victims develop a fondness for their victimizers. Right. Right. And sometimes victims cope with a thing that they're not enjoying by telling themselves and their abuser that it was OK. And that doesn't make it OK. Right. Notion that it makes it OK comes from a very innocent till proven guilty mindset that comes explicitly from the notion of people who want to put sexual abuse in a frame of guilty or innocent. Right. A legal framework. Right. So that men can get away with anything except pretty much stranger rape.

0:34:42 Thomas: Really reminds me of the classic and I'm sure this still happens but hopefully not as much anymore the classic workplace thing where the fucking dude making the racist or sexist jokes in front of the whole workplace is like yeah but you're cool with these jokes right you're great with these like like you get it like you it's like putting all that pressure into them saying they're okay you know and not genuinely like having any interest in that that

0:35:06 Tom: Feels too very much like yet another example of the problem of the consent model for trying to approach sex and sexuality like we've talked about this before but like consent idea of like consent I am allowed to do something like I think there's a lot of folks that are trying to become allowed to do things to somebody rather than making sure that they find a place of mutual pleasure and joy. And that's a problem. Be wary of ourselves. We should have a moment of personal introspection if what we're most concerned about is what we are allowed to be. To do to someone rather than are we sharing a joyful and pleasurable experience together? Like, I don't care what parameters what are negotiated where that joy and pleasure come together. Like, that's fucking between y 'all. But like, when we think about, man, here are the things I want to do to you, like, will you let me? That's a fucking problem.

0:35:52 Thomas: Yeah well that

0:36:07 Tom: And that's built into the word consent.

0:36:08 Eli: How do I sell you into saying the word? Yes.

0:36:10 Tom: Yeah. Like being allowed to do something to somebody is a fucking problem. Like if somebody's like, yeah, I'll let you do that to me. It's like, hold on a minute. Do you want it? Does that sound fun to you? Like, why would I want to do Something? We should interrogate really, that in ourselves. Like, somebody will allow you to do Something, that should not be good enough.

0:36:27 Tom: Ever. That's full Stop. You should feel gross about taking something like that And having a, allowing somebody else to have a neutral experience experience like I think that's a fucking problem I

0:36:36 Thomas: I asked for feet pics if they weren't a problem I don't know why do you have to enjoy

0:36:39 Tom: Sent him I sent

0:36:39 Eli: He's well, you know, it's a jealousy thing for Thomas. Thomas Thomas you remember that joke you remember that joke it's your favorite joke the

0:36:46 Thomas: And feet feet envy yeah uh is what rich has this gone from the show it's not here this is what

0:36:54 Eli: One thing Thomas to the Lydia cut would leave the feet jokes yeah

0:36:59 Thomas: No that's not even the Lydia cut um this one component Tom to agree that yes and that that was what really blew me away it was one quote in particular where and again this was not to my knowledge there's almost none of that article except like I think some at the very end where they bought where they gave like Gaiman's words Like this was all from the victim. So it's not like, it's not like I was taking Gaiman's word for anything, but the way it was described by the victim that like, she first started saying, uh, I think it was through another person that, that one you're talking about where she eventually, you know, phone said like, oh no, it was fine. Um, he first became aware, however it was that she was maybe not, you was not cash money to use Eli's phrase the he said, oh, I thought we had a good thing. Like I thought, we like, he said it like, oh I thought we were both enjoying this in a way. And he said it in was just just thinking my guy what what is the we like how are you getting that this other person who you just on signed to this like humiliation kink that you decided you're doing where's the part where you thought they were into it like where what information were you using to

0:38:08 Thomas: Be like oh I thought we both loved this thing where I degrade you that you didn't volunteer for it's the weirdest thing it was just like so surreal yeah

0:38:16 Eli: Well it's it's a misunderstanding of kink right because if your understanding of BDSM is I treat you like shit and then I go back to my office and work on Sandman 2 Electric Boogaloo, right? You are not understanding, like, the nature of consensual sadomasochism, right. Like, look, you can play a scene where you do stuff to someone and then you walk away, but you better sure as fuck come right back in the door and be like, hey, you doing okay? Is that fun? You want some cuddles? You want some shoulder rub? Right. If you think that the scene can go forever, I got some hard news for you you might not be a rapist but you suck at kink right yeah

0:38:41 Thomas: Wait

0:38:54 Tom: Know like one thing that that I think is is is very true about this Right. Is that if as the sort of extremity of your kink interests moves from like foot rubs to like pissing on somebody. Right. Like is a difference. Like, there's there's a continuum here. Right. In terms of what is appropriate to make sure and really be extra careful about, to your point, Eli, up fucking front, right? Because I'll tell you what, the sort of aftercare model, if it is a genuinely frightening, traumatic, or scary experience with somebody, the whole aftercare model is classic abuse, what it doesn't work is it reinforces classic abuse dynamics where you hurt somebody and then you love somebody, and you hurt somebody and you love somebody and it creates this push pull that creates an emotional like bond with somebody like is a classically abusive technique so when you're involved in these like to your use your phrase when youre involved in these scenes that have like or degradation or any of that kind of stuff like that can't be something you spring on somebody and then in the moment they're like yes it's cool that's they're having whatever feelings they're having as they're experiencing this, and maybe it's very complicated, like the women in these stories seem to have very complicated feelings around their sexual experiences with Neil Gaiman and around their relationship with Neil Gaiman. I think part of that complication comes from the constant emotional push -pull. Classically, abusers aren't always cruel. Very rarely

0:39:35 Eli: It doesn't work if you mess up right if you haven't gotten consent first right yeah

0:40:32 Tom: Is that the case. Abusers are often cruel and kind in alternating and confusing ways that keep people anchored into that relationship in really problematic fashion and only does this seem not unlike that this seems classically the same thing right

0:40:48 Thomas: Where was the part where he was what he did or are you talking about the hypothetical because I where was he ever nice to any of them like I just sucked right

0:40:55 Tom: No I think that his model is like nice would you know he's He's paying their rent. He is checking in.

0:41:00 Eli: You offered financial support and

0:41:02 Tom: He's he's doing a lot of emotional care. And I don't know how much like sexual aftercare he's doing, but I'm just kind of making a broader point that the problem with like post-coital sexual aftercare in the kink community, if it's not prompted before the scene with like your point, Eli, like a lot. A lot of conversation ahead of time is that that's just emotional manipulation. Now, that's all that shit is

0:41:24 Thomas: Yeah if you don't do the first part which was you consent and enthusiastic consent for the behavior then Then you're just doing a thing where you're trying to like make it OK that you assaulted someone. That's a very different thing.

0:41:35 Eli: I mean it it is genuinely not unlike flying tackling someone in the supermarket and then when they call the cops explaining that you're a fan of football ball like there's just so so

0:41:45 Thomas: And that's what people struggle with that, because there's so there's only one difference between completely OK behavior and totally fucking insane behavior. And that difference is enthusiastic consent, which is a thing that like you can't really it's sort of abstract in a way. Like, it's almost like it's this informational thing that makes a difference. And I think people really struggle with that where they're like, well, so that's okay. This entire same behavior is okay. As long as it's like, yeah, that is the crucial part. Like it has to be something they enthusiastically consent to, and then it might be fine.

0:42:21 Eli: Did

0:42:21 Tom: Well and like not to beat a dead horse but I really do think that a lot of that comes back to the I will cuddle afterwards I I think that like a lot of that comes back to the uh the way that we think about sex for a lot of people is that they want to get something from someone they want to obtain sex I would like to get sex I want to get a blowjob I want to obtain I want to get I like this taking model and I I think language is very, very telling. I pay a lot of attention to language because I think language tells us all the things we really mean that we're not saying out loud. And we use a lot of language around sex that is very ownership and taking based. And that's why I really hate that word consent. Because consent is a permission or allowance based way to think about sex.

0:42:25 Eli: You get consent from the horse right right it's an on off switch yes you either have it or you don't the

0:43:10 Tom: But beyond have it or don't, it's like it the other person's joy.

0:43:14 Eli: it'S a thing to obtain yeah I I also think and it's worth pointing out that right enthusiastic informed consent which does need to be the standard is awkward right itS awkward to ask your partner for a thing and have them say oh no that's not my dance party right nobody wants to do that because it feels like a little bit of a rejection and message that needs to be sent is that the alternative is sexually assaulting someone right it's hard to ask someone out on a date right but we understand you're not allowed to just show up at someone's house right and be like do algeris shall we go get some right well yeah sorry I I shouldn't have never assumed that some men understand these things. Right. So funny. These like my, these moments of discomfort, right. That men save themselves at the cost of someone's like lasting wellness. And if there's one other thing that I wanted to talk about, because Tom, you brought up something, which is like, I don't surround myself with vulnerable people. And maybe this is like wildly egotistical. And maybe This is just like, cause, cause I, I think in a lot of times when men hear hear these stories the impulse to pat ourselves on the back is pretty strong so I want to own that like this might be me doing that but like one of the things that struck me as I was reading this article is how similar gaiman's relationship to his victims is to my relationship with of a the young women in my life without the abuse right I think about my friend rachel who's been been over on god awful movies who both of you have met right like I met rachel when she was 19 years old right a college freshman who was briefly dating a friend of mine but then was in a social group that I was the head of and I was mentoring her like that power dynamic not intensely one -sided right and I think about listeners who I have befriended or people who have entered my my life with sort of that lopsided power dynamic. My students, right? Are, you know, 19, 20 years old, very, and often in financial situations that are desperate. Often I am the only teacher who has treated them like a human being, right. I see, I see these moments where the power dynamic is lopsided and is going to sound like such a weird thing to fixate on, but it made me so So deeply sad that he

0:43:47 Thomas: Men, similarly, some men don't understand that. Yeah. The same men. Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah

0:45:28 Eli: Chose to be a sexual victimizer rather than a mentor, right? Again, using my friend Rachel as the example, like she is one of the most enriching friendships I've had in my life and watching her grow and thrive and kick ass and be on like TV and like write her own show and all that shit. Like I wouldn't have gotten any of that if I had decided, oh, this is a sexual relationship. I could probably bully her into a sexual relationship.

0:45:53 Thomas: Maybe she wouldn't have either you know like it's yeah it really ruins lives a

0:45:58 Eli: Like it really does. It ruins lives and it ruins, again, this feels like such a weird thing to say. Ruined everybody's life, right? Cause you get to be the hero in someone else's story. You get to genuinely help them and mentor them and be kind to them. And instead you got what? Three of the weird sex sessions you thought about it just it fucking sucks me it sucks so much that we have this opportunity to do great things for our fellow human beings to treat them in a way they will remember to affect their life in away that is truly wonderful and that we traded in for a fucking half -imagined thought during a yank session you know what I'm saying is

0:46:05 Thomas: Yeah %

0:46:40 Eli: That crazy is he?

0:46:41 Tom: No, that's not crazy at all. I think that that mean, a lot of people are looking at relationships with other people as what's what's in this for me and what they miss in that like myopic view is that being a mentor to other people is as rewarding if done well for you to mentor as the mentee. You got to take a longer view and step back and like focus on other people first and there's a huge number of people that just don't want to do that yeah

0:47:06 Thomas: It I think there's um really good uh point that I've read that's kind of the other side of of that, Eli, which is another downside of this whole thing is that if men take that kind of attitude to be like, well, great. Now I'm, even if it's well -intentioned to be like, wow, I'm just going to not put myself in that position. I'm just going not put in the position of ever having someone that I, you know, is vulnerable and more powerful. Well, yeah, due to the power dynamics of our world, that means a whole bunch of men who have the power to mentor people or Or to take on the grad student or to do with the whatever now if they're a woman, which just, you reinforces the very inequality that leads that to a lot of this stuff. And sort of reminds me when the police are like, oh, I'm not allowed to just murder people. Fine. No good police work.

0:47:54 Thomas: Then we're done. And you're just like, yeah, that can't be the answer. The answer could it has be, to be, be a normal, good person and just don't, try to help someone for the purpose of fucking sexually assaulting them.

0:47:54 Eli: Cops. Right. Yeah, do your job. Stop killing dogs. Yeah

0:48:05 Tom: Like know we're over but I have to like add to that thomas because I like embedded in that mindset is such a deep misogyny because because those people are basically saying even if I behave well I don't trust women not to ruin my life with with false accusations,

0:48:20 Thomas: It tells me you don't actually believe that any victims are telling the truth.

0:48:23 Tom: Right. So there is a deep misogyny built into that. That is a person you should look at and be like, you can't be trusted because either you don't trust you or you don't like women, right. There' s no middle ground there.

0:48:35 Eli: And even the way we talk about these accusations right so-and-so has been accused right when there's never a serial killer or a mass shooter and we're like this person has been accused or right they're just like that guy shot four people right they fucking with

0:48:46 Thomas: I will say I, I, that, that I do think legally there.

0:48:49 Eli: One One beautiful exception, one beautiful curly-haired exception, an innocent sweet boy who I was with the whole time, old dads, we were having consensual, enthusiastic, informed, consensual sex. And I will say that right to a judge's face, while dressed as his mom.

0:48:59 Thomas: He was doing crazy sex stuff to me.

0:49:07 Tom: My God. I

0:49:17 Eli: Right, you guys ready for a parenting story?

0:49:18 Tom: Am ready for a parenting story.

0:49:19 Thomas: You got to do your joke dummy what the fuck

0:49:22 Eli: Right, I'm sorry, gentlemen. Before we leave, why does the Vatican smell so good? Because of all the potpourri.

0:49:24 Tom: Dummy. Me oh lord oh okay that was the best way that was gonna go let's

0:49:33 Thomas: That's so good oh I love that that's a great one I love that one fucking

0:49:42 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, tom smith who also wrote and recorded the intro music which is used with his permission this podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC copyright 2022 all rights reserved

0:50:24 Eli: Sex is bad. By the way this is stephanie we met at one of our shows but since then we've had a really deep connection right she's just like a