DOD180: Do Men Have a Duty To Protect?

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Tom: To Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's just itching to get involved. I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined, as always, by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:38 Thomas: Yo, all right, I need to apologize for the Yik Yak I read the other day. I got the age of the babies wrong, so it was a little less crazy. They found out about the switch and the IVF at, like, two months or something, and they were done they

0:00:52 Tom: Too much changes the

0:00:52 Eli: Off that's nothing that's

0:00:53 Tom: Whole thing. Delete the episode.

0:00:54 Thomas: Were. I know I know

0:00:55 Tom: Delete the whole episode.

0:00:56 Thomas: I did I already did I

0:00:57 Tom: Two months, you the baby back, and who cares?

0:00:58 Eli: Nothing that a nothing story I

0:01:00 Thomas: But it took them a while, it took, that was when they started the testing, and then by the time, I think they had just about fully traded by four months. Uh, so sorry about that. I went to go check and I swear I saw a year, but it must have been, I was just scanning real fast because it was too long in between when I read it and when we did the episode. My fault, sorry.

0:01:17 Tom: A little bit more about this. I think by the age of 13, I probably wouldn't trade back, you the time they're like, you know, a teenager, early teenager, I'd probably be like, yeah, all right, I'm kind of settled into this one. That's

0:01:20 Thomas: The important thing is it's the first time any of us have ever gotten anything wrong on the air, you know, and I just want to, sorry.

0:01:33 Tom: Is it's certainly the first time many of us have admitted it. Yeah.

0:01:38 Eli: Just Just wish you take your responsibility as a skeptic a little more seriously, Thomas, you know, it's just like we carry the torch of truth here on our podcasts, and yeah

0:01:43 Thomas: Yeah. That, that makes me feel better. Cause as I thought about it, I mean, Tom, I think you were totally on this, the whole to both of you, really. It's like a year is that is pretty crazy. That would be pretty rough.

0:01:56 Tom: That's Fucking bonkers. You've

0:01:57 Eli: But a two months is nothing though. That's the other problem The problem with two months is, that's not, that shouldn't have been in the newspaper

0:01:59 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Shouldn't have been a story. Yeah, that should have been like, oh, I set down my baby here and you set down your baby here, then we accidentally mixed them up for five minutes. Yeah.

0:02:04 Eli: Yeah. Right. Right.

0:02:05 Tom: Like, what you're fucking crying about? That's feel Like, they're like suitcases at that point, like if you grab a brown suitcase and you get a brown suit, like, whatever. Yeah.

0:02:15 Eli: Yeah. When you're waiting for luggage, you grab someone else's suitcase and they're like, that's mine. You're like, oh, sorry. Anything good in it? Right, like, that's how newsworthy that situation was. Yeah.

0:02:24 Thomas: Yeah.

0:02:27 Tom: Like one of those sitcom, like, oh, my goldfish died, I got a new goldfish tropes, you know, like A baby looks about

0:02:32 Eli: Yeah. Oh

0:02:32 Thomas: Oh here It is. Here's my plan: the husbands have to get together, meet with the babies, and make hair and makeup experts, and they're like, how do we slowly transition the babies to each other over time? Like it's just a little, like Yeah, each day, like, oh, that eyebrow is a little, you know, thing, whatever it is, like, hair is slightly darker, you know, and then, and they

0:02:33 Tom: Right

0:02:44 Eli: Using practical effects Yeah. Yeah.

0:02:46 Tom: And you have to do the whole thing in stop motion too. That's the other part. It's like, yeah, can I just say too that I saw a lot of comments from people on that episode where they were essentially I know it is. It is, generally speaking, it is where, where they, they all kind of said something similar, which is like, oh, in that circumstance I would, like, be super duper friends with the family, and, like, more people who love your kid, like, that sounds fine. But I thought, like, but I don't like most fucking people like But like, it's not even what, like, I don't like most atheists, like

0:02:56 Thomas: Meet in the middle, swapperoo, nobody's the wiser.

0:03:03 Eli: That seems like a terrible idea. You shouldn't do that. What if

0:03:04 Thomas: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

0:03:22 Eli: They're Christians Yeah, right.

0:03:26 Tom: Most people I meet, I'm unlikely to be like, oh, now we're family, we love each other, we have the same thoughts. And like, the chances of that happening are, fucking, in my mind, like, infinitesimally small like

0:03:36 Eli: But Tom, you understand that's not a universal experience, right? How you feel

0:03:40 Tom: Don't most people dislike most people Yeah, like I mean, most people I meet, I'm like, I don't like that guy

0:03:40 Eli: Okay. Yeah

0:03:40 Thomas: I'm with Tom on this one. I'm mitama on this. It's universal on this podcast, except for Eli.

0:03:47 Tom: Yeah

0:03:47 Eli: It's a two-thirds majority on this podcast these other people are icky. I

0:03:48 Thomas: Yeah. I'm Withya. Here's what you're forgetting. They have custody of your child. Child. So it's kissing ass until you can. Oh, yeah, we totally agree. And then you leave the country once

0:03:56 Eli: Would

0:03:56 Tom: Know. I could Thomas Smith, nobody can pretend better than I can. I spent a lot of years in sales. I spent, like, people, but like, I'm not going to be like, oh, we're friends. We're getting together at the 4th of July barbecue. And like, we'll all get together on the weekends to play board. Like, what are the chances that I like that guy?

0:04:19 Eli: Just like to remind everybody that I have been in the room twice when Tom was pretending not to be mad, and he melted several things with his eyes.

0:04:26 Tom: Different. That's, that's different, that different. I'm just saying, like, I can sell you that. I like you. I am guarantee. I can tell you that I, I like you if I, if I want to get something out of it so

0:04:31 Thomas: Wait a minute.

0:04:39 Eli: That's true I'm pretty convinced I'm pretty convinced it's

0:04:41 Thomas: Now I feel bad that he hasn't even tried with me. He's like, like, I'm not pretending, it's not worth my time Tom's

0:04:41 Eli: True.

0:04:41 Tom: It's not that much in it for me, you know.

0:04:48 Eli: Guys, guys, you know the only thing worse than, uh, people according to the two of you. Yeah.

0:04:52 Thomas: Ability to pretend that he's

0:04:53 Eli: Tom's ability to pretend. Why, it's the auto ads, the fake friendship of podcasting. Here you are shaking our hands. What's that in between our hands? Why, it doesn't, it's a tiny little Verizon commercial, but, But you can get rid of that tiny Verizon commercial in between our palms over at patreon.com/dear old dads where, for as little as a dollar, you get a commercial-free version of every show, but not just commercial-free. No, no, no. You also get an extended version of each show with a little parenting story at the end. Some of the best lore of the podcast has come from those end segments. You want to fill in your notebook, your notion board of podcastiverse lore, you gotta do it over at patreon.com/dear old dads. Real into

0:04:53 Thomas: Not mad yeah

0:05:39 Eli: It, it's

0:05:39 Thomas: I

0:05:41 Tom: Right, so, uh, one is a, is a reader, so I'm going to read, uh, this probably came from Reddit, I don't remember where it came from. I saw it on our, uh, uh, group or whatever, and I thought this would be great for the show, so let me go ahead and read this. I'm gonna read it by, by the way, exactly as it's written. And because I think this was posted to Reddit, what I want you to remember is that everybody who posts to Reddit is like terrible at writing things. So this is not, this is Not Me.

0:06:06 Eli: Fair.

0:06:06 Thomas: Think Chat GPT is quite good at writing. That's weird. I

0:06:09 Eli: Yeah.

0:06:09 Tom: Jesus Christ. All went his company Christmas party last night as we were waiting for our Uber. Yeah, I know. I know, and also like Like, evidently, it's illegal when you write on Reddit to use a comma anywhere or any punctuation other than a period.

0:06:24 Thomas: Found that in general the options are no commas or 400 commas, like commas in places they don't belong at all. Oh

0:06:31 Eli: I

0:06:28 Tom: Just a comma in the middle of a word. We were waiting for our Uber out on the sidewalk, I noticed a girl standing by herself waiting for her ride on the corner. I didn't like that she was waiting by herself, so I was keeping an eye on her while we were outside talking. This drunk kid was roaming around talking to himself, and eventually I saw him go up to her. I was watching the whole time to see her body language and see if she was okay.

And when I saw her walk away, I walked over there and my boyfriend followed. I just stayed in her general vicinity and she walked over and asked if she could wait with us. And I said, of course, I came here because I didn't like that you were waiting by yourself and that the drunk guy was bothering you. She was super appreciative. We waited with her until her Uber came.

Her Uber got there and the drunk, I walked straight up and opens the passenger seat and is trying to get in, and I walk over there and I let the Uber driver know this guy is not with her and don't let him in this car. Tell the drunk guide to go away. This isn't his Uber, and try to shove him off the car, but he isn't budging. I look over, and my boyfriend is still standing on the corner, looking at his phone to see when our Uber is coming.

0:07:28 Tom: I call out to him to come help, and he still stands there. Fed up, I go back inside, inside the venue, to find some guy bartenders who will instantly drop their cleanup to come outside and help. My boyfriend just stood there the entire time and watched me fend off a drunk guy by myself. His defense is he know what people are capable of, and people can be dangerous, but he's perfectly okay with watching his girlfriend walk into that. I really don't know where to go from here, but I can't see him as a man anymore if he's not going to protect me. Yeah

0:07:28 Thomas: My god. Yeah.

0:07:58 Eli: See him identically as a man. That's the most man thing to do in the universe, the most man thing ever is let a woman be in danger and then be like, oh, sorry, let me explain this to you while you're emotional. I could have gotten hurt. You understand, understand how terrible that would be, right, babe? How terrible it would be if I got hurt, like

0:08:00 Thomas: I was gonna, gonna say until that last sentence.

0:08:12 Thomas: Yeah. I love how his, his reasoning was just the reason there was a conflict. Like, did he think she was just doing that for fun? Like, for no reason? Like, yeah I'm helping because people could be dangerous. That's exactly. We have the same reasoning. Yeah.

0:08:28 Eli: Candy

0:08:28 Tom: Right. Yeah, well Also clearly, like, it's it's not like he's like, whoa, this could be dangerous, I should get my girlfriend out of this situation, right? He's just like, this could be dangerous, I guess you can handle it. So

0:08:44 Eli: Crush Candy Crush. Oh, sprinkle ball. Candy, Candy Crush.

0:08:47 Thomas: Yeah.

0:08:49 Tom: There's a lot to unpack here, and I think the the best place to start is the is maybe the hardest and longest part to unpack, which which is the idea that this this lady, woman, this girlfriend can't see him as a man anymore.

0:08:58 Eli: Jolly Flinting Right.

0:09:07 Tom: So of his value as a man, and her perception of his masculinity as it should be expressed, is tied up in that idea of protection. And I'm curious what your thoughts are on that.

0:09:25 Thomas: Well I I think she was 100 right until then, because for me It's more like, oh, you mean he just sucks, like, I don't care. Is she a man now? Like, does she do, I have to look at her as a man because she protected the woman, or is it just there's people who are considerate and people who aren't, you know what I mean? Like, I don't really

0:09:28 Eli: Right.

0:09:43 Eli: It's it's like she acted perfectly right as she saved this girl that she turned away from the car, and she was like, oh man Gay people should not get married. Oh, whew. Hate when gay people get married.

0:09:48 Thomas: You're Like, no I think of my husband is a total F slur. You're like, oh, yikes.

0:09:56 Eli: Yeah, exactly.

0:09:57 Tom: So I don't I think a couple of things here Jesus

0:10:04 Thomas: Yeah.

0:10:00 Eli: A kike. That's the one I can use, everybody. That' what I thought I'd bring it to bear.

0:10:06 Tom: Christ I

0:10:08 Thomas: Me get Arlo. What a dirty no coat. As long as he, I had some, some no coats were my best friend and kids.

0:10:09 Eli: Yeah. Yeah exactly. Monago. Go, yeah.

0:10:15 Thomas: Tom, that's yours.

0:10:17 Tom: I Monago, I'm a Monago, I forgot Monago. No cos and Monagos. Jesus Christ, we've got a whole fucking language over here on Dear Old Dads of just weird

0:10:18 Eli: Yeah. Yeah.

0:10:24 Thomas: Yeah, we've invented, no, just specifically slurs, Tom. Get it right. It's just slurs that Eli invents in his spare time.

0:10:28 Eli: Specifically That's

0:10:32 Tom: Our own Urban Dictionary coming right out of Dear Old Dads at this point. So I I I will go the other side of the bears, I think, on this one, which is probably not surprising, but I do think that, um, a patriarchy, men have a greater responsibility, responsibility, um, sure, and not outside of a patriarch, you're just just the the general fact of sexual dimorphism, like we have a greater responsibility to intervene in these scenarios than women do. I think that that's just a a truth. Like, we walk around in a world where we are generally speaking physically bigger, physically stronger than women are, and I think I think when a scenario like this presents itself, I think we have an actual responsibility as the larger, stronger, speaking, to get involved.

I think that that is our responsibility. And I think a huge part, whether it's fair or not, is kind of just setting aside the relevance of its fairness. Feminist, whether it's fair or not, I also think it's true that men are generally, as a rule, expected or valued in part for our ability to protect. I don't think that that's, like, socially not a true thing. So I think, like, this guy standing there, I think this guy sucks ass, right? This guy sucks for, like, 50 reasons. That's why there's a lot to unpack. But I actually think it's pretty fair for her to see him as, like, if it was, if it was two girlfriends standing there, I don't think the same amount of responsibility would be on the other girlfriend as is on this guy. I think it actually matters very much that this is a guy. And I think it's fair to judge him on it as

0:10:34 Eli: Right. Yeah. You're Welcome What

0:10:35 Thomas: I Guess I

0:12:14 Tom: A man. I think, I think if my wife and my wife's best friend were standing there. I would not be like, oh man, my wife, best friend really had a responsibility to get physically involved. If I'm standing there with my wife and there's something going on, I have a responsibility to get involved. Or even if it's not my wife, it's just some other random lady. I have responsibility to get informed because like I walk around with the privilege of male embodiment.

0:12:14 Thomas: I still just think the primary Okay

0:12:38 Eli: Putting that aside for a second, because I just sort of want to drill down on the claim here. What about, like, lesbian couples? Do you think lesbian couples don't have that physical obligation? Okay.

0:12:46 Tom: They don't have the same physical obligation as, as if she was with a male friend.

0:12:50 Eli: Interesting.

0:12:51 Tom: Yeah. A hundred percent. Like, I think we have an obligation to like help protect our friends, but

0:12:51 Eli: Interesting.

0:12:55 Thomas: It's me and my girlfriend Ronda Rousey

0:12:58 Eli: Interesting. Well, that that Thomas, you beat me to exactly which it was, which is, like, as as someone who is less strong than most of the women in my life, because, like, I can tell you for sure who's kicking more ass between Anna and Eli Bosnack. I'm just, uh, like I would heartily, I'll get in there, right, and I'll agree with you on privilege but I'm mostly ankle biting. I want you to I'm I'm mostly, I'm mostly doing that behind them on the hands and knees at the pool situation.

0:13:13 Thomas: Right. But I was gonna say you have unique de-escalating skills, though, because I I've heard you just shit your pants on command and then that de-escalates the situation, but

0:13:31 Eli: Yep. And it's perfect misdirection for Anna's karate. It's perfect. Like, did that guy shit himself? Hi -ya! No fucking shot.

0:13:37 Thomas: Yeah. No.

0:13:39 Tom: Yeah. Upper body strength differences between men and women, when you look them up, ranges it somewhere on, and these are averages, right? So we're talking in general

0:13:50 Eli: Yeah, we're not talking about me. For me, it's the inverse.

0:13:52 Tom: There are there are circumstances, certainly

0:13:53 Eli: When you're thinking about me, podcast listener, please inverse whatever genders Tom is talking about.

0:13:54 Tom: That are different Right. Like, but

0:13:58 Thomas: Just Yeah. No. Disagreement, we be it resolved that the average dude can take on the average girl, just on average. We'll all agree there. I

0:14:07 Tom: It's a difference of between 30 and 50 percent, depending on where you look. So it's an enormous difference. That's an Enormous Differential. And I just think that with that comes some responsibility. Just Like, do. I just I think that that comes a responsibility to get involved in these scenarios.

0:14:14 Eli: What have I done?

0:14:26 Eli: Well, it it's interesting, even without the the, like, strength thing, which again is, like, true for me, right? I am I am probably weaker than most of the women in my life, right? But, like, the privilege thing which you just spoke to, I think that's completely true, and in many ways, like, as if not more important, right? Because in that scenario, right, like, I think we can all agree on, whatever you think about the biology of the the situation, is that, like, men stop behaving when other men interfere.

0:14:54 Tom: Hundred percent.

0:14:55 Eli: Right. Is what we are culturalized to. That's what we're socialized to believe. That'S what every movie conveys. That IS what my personal experience has been. Right? That IS when women express their discomfort, men get more aggressive. When men step in, men back down. Right.? know, it's horrible to say, but like, it'S the thing that, you know, we've all heard this from countless women. When I I started wearing my wedding ring. Dude, stop being creeps. When this happened, I, you know, I say, you're looking for your husband, say you're talking to your boyfriend on the phone, right? Like there, there is something about that hierarchy of patriarchy that as a member, just like you said, Tom, as a person of privilege in that gender dynamic, it is your obligation to step in just as I would say, right. I saw a white person being racist to a person of color, right, of my privilege in the racial hierarchy, it is my obligation to step in and correct that person's behavior.

0:15:21 Tom: Right.

0:15:49 Tom: I think I that's think. That that's right. Right. And I think it's also, like, I want to go that step further and put myself out. I think I think that it is fair for this girlfriend or whatever to judge him for not getting involved, and specifically to judge him based on his gender, because, again, I think that he has an obligation here that is gender specific. I really do. I think that that matters.

0:16:12 Thomas: Think that, I think, the the danger there is then, do you making Making the claim that men who are less masculine, who are smaller, who are whatever, are not as much men. And therefore, I just think it opens up a can of worms, you know, like that. I think it's it's to me, it's like.

0:16:26 Eli: Send you a video of me fucking my wife right now, Tom.

0:16:30 Tom: No. And again,

0:16:30 Thomas: Stop offering that we get.

0:16:32 Eli: My number.

0:16:34 Thomas: No, I was going to say is I think it's for me, it's more the Spider -Man rule where it's like, I think it's just in In this of thing, I think the ability to help is what gives someone the responsibility to help. And I think that that will vary based on the situation. I agree that in more situations, men might have a size advantage or something that would allow them to help, but I also think there's lots of ways that these things go, and it really depends on what kind of confrontation this is. And a lot of times de -escalation, we've talked about that before, de -eschalation is the best bet. And I will say, Tom, as much as I'm not really disagreeing with what you just said, I do think that there absolutely the dynamic that men need that other man to be the police force on them before they take someone seriously. But I do think there is a subset of interactions where another man actually inflames things. And it of depends on what the

0:16:33 Tom: Oh,

0:16:41 Eli: Everybody gets one. One, yeah. What

0:17:31 Tom: A hundred

0:17:31 Thomas: Altercation is. And whereas a girlfriend of a friend might be able to appeal to the sort of the toxic masculinity in a way that that makes a different kind of appeal. You know what I mean? What I'm trying to say? Yeah.

0:17:31 Tom: Percent. Yeah, I

0:17:46 Thomas: Don't know which would be true, but I do think that if see someone in trouble, no matter who you are, and regardless of your gender, your size, your whatever, if you have the ability to help, I do you think that gives you some responsibility, in my mind, to help in our society.

0:18:00 Tom: Do. I feel like the genders here make a big, big difference. So and I'll just, I'll just throw out there. Like if, Haley and her best friend were out on a girl's night and some drunk guy And Haley's trying to protect some stranger, just like in this scenario, against some drunk person, some drunk guy, not person, some drunk guide, right? Haney's friend was scared and did not want to get involved. I would be like, yeah, that makes sense. Like, dudes are, you to women and bigger and generally stronger and, you know, can wreak a lot of damage and have a history of doing so. So, so like makes all the sense in the world why I would not judge Haley's best friend for jumping in, in that scenario. But, uh, able -bodied man that like, let's say instead of Haley his best friend, Lainey, she was out with, you friend. She's out with Cecil. If Cecil didn't, Cecil, yeah. Okay. But, you Know, I'm just saying like, if, if just, just somebody that people know, like like, just an able -bodied guy, I be appalled.

0:18:47 Thomas: Well, he'll have a sword, so that's a bad comparison.

0:18:59 Tom: I would appalled differently because that's a guy and because the confrontation involves another guy.

0:19:06 Eli: About Like a physically fit woman, like Coach Tiffany

0:19:09 Tom: Yeah, fine, same. I would still be like, no, you've got to get involved. I want to go back to what you said, like, Thomas, real quick, because I wantto make sure that I'm not misconstrued by the audience. I'mnot saying violence here, right? And I, but like I'm not saying that like men are good, but the threat of at de-escalation, we're generally speaking not. I'm not saying that women wouldn't be better at deescalating the situation, generally speaking. They oftentimes are, as a result of the way that we socialize them and the predator-prey relationship between men and women, unfortunately, and the things that they have to learn in order to survive. But like, yeah, a hundred percent, but like, these obligation is still to get involved, whether. And I do think it's entirely fair to be like, yeah, that guy sucks as

0:19:21 Thomas: You're thinking it though

0:19:52 Eli: Yeah

0:19:52 Tom: A guy, that guy sucks. As a guy for not getting involved, because I wouldn't judge, I wouldn'T judge Laney. I wouldnT judge Haley's best friend for the same thing. AndI would judge any of her male friends for not getTing involved differently.

0:19:52 Eli: Well Uh She

0:19:55 Thomas: Yeah Well Hold I think we set our pieces, except that I think you should judge a girlfriend if it's a similar situation, because think about what the guy's doing. He's not just not physically getting involved, he's playing Candy Crush. He's checked out. Like, if Lydia's girlfriend was like oh I don't, yeah She asked for help, if Livia's girlfriend friend was like, eh, sucks to be you, don't care, I'd be like, well, fuck that friend. Like you could, you can always be doing something. You could be alerting those very, uh, uh male staff that, that the girl friend alerted.

Like there's no, if, if you were a guy who's not one for any sort of violence, I, -OK by my book, like that's, that's better. But, but like you can do other things. And this guy is just a fucking sociopath. This guy, to to mine, my, this guy guy just does not care about other people because like, I don't know how you could do that. Like it'd be one thing if he was a total stranger, I'd be like, eh, who knows? He's got stuff going on. Maybe he's just like, God, I gotta get home. I gotta go get to work or something. He's the boyfriend, right? He on.

0:20:18 Tom: Oh yeah. We got to go into all that that stuff Yeah, yeah. Oh Yeah Yeah Yeah Same.

0:20:20 Eli: Asked for help. She Right Yeah

0:20:41 Tom: Yeah. Yeah.

0:21:02 Thomas: That's crazy.

0:21:02 Eli: Yeah, so that's, I think, where I'm differing from you, Tom, is that I completely agree he sucks, right? He sucks as a a partner, he sucks as a friend, he sucks as a person. There's nothing inherent to maleness for me definitional except for his recipiency of privilege that I am like, that makes him less male to me. Yes.

0:21:24 Tom: Well, do you, I guess let me, let me ask you a related question. Like, I'm not saying it makes him less male, I think it makes him less good. Like it makes them a shitty it makes it, but I would say like specifically it makes him a shitty, is fair for her to judge him as being a less desirable man because he did not intervene. I like, I am curious where you guys land on this question. Do you think that it is a fair or decent or okay thing for people to value men specifically as protectors in the way that we often socially do?

0:21:32 Eli: Good Yes Good for

0:21:42 Thomas: Sure. Yeah.

0:21:42 Eli: Sure, through the lens of privilege, absolutely. Through the lines of like biology, I'm not so sure. So

0:22:08 Tom: Do you mean by that?

0:22:09 Eli: Like when someone says, hey, I think it is male obligation to be a protector and provider, what I read into that sentence is, because we have a society built by men for men, I know how much of an advantage this person has, and so the obligation on them to provide and protect is as a result of that privilege, not a result of their inherent biology, right? So if someone says you have to be be a provider and protector because you are bigger and stronger. I don't know that I understand that necessarily. Like, I get it because I grew up in society and I don't want to play stupid and pretend that I didn't grow up around that notion and understand it. I do understand it. I don't know how true it holds versus, I know for a fact the notions around privilege and socialization, I know those are true and I think they are important and I think men should feel obligated in those ways, right?

0:23:00 Tom: -hmm.

0:23:05 Thomas: Eli, your dad fought a different henchman each week. Yeah, every day. I'm curious how that plays into any of this for you, like

0:23:08 Tom: Yeah.

0:23:08 Eli: Day, every second Yeah Well Yeah I mean, I saw a person who could fight, so it was, it was interesting because very early I realized, and I've told these shows on the store before, like, there, I think this is action movies, I don't know what it is, but like if you have a dad who can fight, or maybe if you're just a man in society, you think you can fight, right? You're ready for what's that Bob Odenkirk movie, right? Nobody, right? You're like, if I was on a bus and they were being mean to a lady, I would probably get Hulk strength.

I think I would get Hulk's strength. And what you learn relatively quickly if you grow up in the fucking 80s and 90s is that you don't, you're not good at fighting unless you learn to fight in one of the learn to fighting classrooms, right? That's not something that anyone is inherently good at at all anywhere. And, in fact, if you are a person who thinks anger will give you Hulk strength, you are much more likely to, for instance, try to headbutt a bouncer outside a bar while he moves gently to the left and run yourself into some trash

0:23:13 Thomas: Yeah didn't see it I

0:23:47 Tom: Yeah, yes.

0:24:15 Thomas: Was

0:24:15 Eli: Cans, right? Notion that you're going to like figure it out in the moment that you'RE going to be unnatural there. I don't think there is a natural at violence. And if there is an natural at silence, it's probably a mental illness. So as someone who grew up sort of in the shadow of someone who was good at violence, who I admired so much and was such a good person. It was really weird to discover that not only was I not good at violence, I had no desire to learn, right? Because when I was young, right, when I was like six, seven, eight, I was like, my dad fights, I'm gonna go where, where would we all go to learn violence? That's

0:24:26 Tom: No.

0:24:58 Thomas: Yeah

0:24:58 Eli: Right. Odd podcast listener, taekwondo class. The foremost martial art of our time, the, I think we can all agree, the best self-defense one can learn. Yeah.

0:25:05 Tom: Second only to capoeira, I think.

0:25:07 Eli: Exact

0:25:08 Thomas: Because You might seduce the attacker Yeah, a

0:25:08 Tom: Yeah yeah, right.

0:25:08 Eli: Second only to capoeira And it was I Right Aikido energy transfer, whatever the case might be, right? Like I went to taekwondo, right, then of course, you know, some years into taekwon-do, certainly after I had been given a black belt, I

0:25:12 Tom: Like Bob's Burgers. Yeah

0:25:24 Thomas: Black belt? Holy shit. I forgot Yeah But that's But how that you bribed someone one. Right? Cause that's, cause that's actually kind of hard to do.

0:25:26 Eli: Smith, are you not aware that you are speaking to a second degree black belt Um First That's how karate works. Everybody relax, everyone's bribing everyone. I don't, I don't want people to think that, like, my parents came in after hours and slipped fucking my taekwondo master at 20. Okay. You stay long enough and you get the secondary black belt, okay? But long after some form of black beltishness had appeared in my life, I was like, all right, spin kick, and someone was like, what you doing, man? Seems like you're moving your whole body around in a big circle. That's crazy.

0:25:48 Thomas: No, it was an open auction at the, yeah,

0:26:11 Eli: Why are you doing that?

0:26:04 Thomas: That's crazy. Eli, I'm not sure you recognize that it is actually kind of rare to have a black belt and have no ability to fight. Like, there, I think you maybe are in a more special situation than, than you think a savant, a bribery savant.

0:26:19 Eli: It's A little bit of a savant, a little bit of uh, special boy Yeah

0:26:23 Thomas: Yeah. Like Like, I would, there's no, you think they give black belts for attendance?

0:26:19 Tom: Very specialized situation yeah

0:26:25 Eli: Was no bribery involved. Just showed up to class. Yeah, that's what I got. I showed up every day, I worked hard, full heart

0:26:33 Tom: He's got that's not a black belt that's a participation belt that they just Just, you know, is it patent leather? Because I feel like that's just an actual black leather belt.

0:26:35 Eli: Yeah Maybe You didn't hear me, Tom. I said taekwondo. It's the national sport should be should be That's what I deserved, is a nice one. Thank

0:26:49 Tom: Yeah, want to be clear, too, that like I am not exclusively talking about violent, violent intervention, right? And I know that that's like kind of the direction that this conversation is headed. I'm just saying that our obligation is a greater obligation and the expectation that we generally and I would pull apart provider from protector, but like our to be a protector in general and to see that as something which is valuable as a partner in a man, I think that that's a fair thing. Not all women value it, right? Like, I don't want to say that this is universally valued, but I think in general it is often socially valued. And I think it's also a very fair thing to value

0:27:22 Eli: God

0:27:27 Thomas: Yeah, Eli, you can stop wearing the black belt around. I think, I think it's time. He wears it everywhere.

0:27:28 Eli: That's how Anna knows. I want to do it as I'm wearing the black belt, just a reminder and just the blackbelt around my cock, so

0:27:35 Thomas: And just, and

0:27:37 Tom: But like To share, like, a super quick parenting thing that just happened the other day around the, like, if you haven't actually learned to fight, you don't know how to fight just because you're, I had to tell this to Finn the other way. Finn so has gotten very, very strong. Like, Finn is working out, he's gotten very strong, and so, like, it occurred to me, I don't remember we were talking about, I was like, I should probably tell him that Being strong doesn't mean anything about whether or not he's actually like a force to be reckoned with here.

0:28:04 Eli: You just kicked his ass

0:28:05 Tom: He's like the gentlest guy ever. I have no worries about this at all. So like I did have a quick conversation with him in the car. I was like, hey, just so you know, just because you're like big and strong doesn't mean like that, you know how to fight, like, don't get above your britches here, you know, if shit pops off

0:28:10 Eli: Podcast

0:28:23 Thomas: Know You guys hate it when I talk Brazilian jujitsu, but it is actually true that, like, the technology of fighting has changed, because back in the day, it actually kind of did mean quite a lot if you were on average, because it's like the metagame of, of male violence, like to make it like, you know, Magic the Gathering comparison, back in, in the 70s, not the many average dudes

0:28:24 Tom: Yeah

0:28:44 Eli: Reeling Them back. In Thomas. Smith. Well,

0:28:45 Thomas: Yeah. Exactly. I'm trying to double appeal here, not the back in that, you know, whenever, not that many on the average men were walking around being experts in in anything, but now that, like, The proliferation of UFC and Brazilian jiu-jitsu, it makes a massive difference, like the difference between no knowledge of that and any knowledge is massive, so so It's funny, it's a weird, I don't know what the graph would be, but size does make a huge difference, but there's like these two little like lumps, or I guess maybe holes in the graph, where it's like, well, but if they know all their shit and you know nothing, then all of a sudden, like, no, it's not going to be, but if you both know a little bit, back to size being a massive advantage, you know what I mean, so it's like, yeah.

0:28:55 Tom: Right. Right. Yeah. All things being equal size

0:29:24 Thomas: The

0:29:24 Tom: Is a bit, but like the biggest advantage is is just knowing how to be in a confrontation successfully, like that's the that is by far more advantageous than than so I did have to have that like moment of real I was like, hey bud, just so you know, like a lot of people that are going to be smaller and still kick your ass all day and twice on Sunday without breaking too much of a sweat. So, you know, you still have to be just as careful in the world. Yeah.

0:29:47 Thomas: Rear naked choke exists. Yeah.

0:29:49 Eli: When you're a big guy, people think you can fight and want to fight you, right? Of the things that I know, I get, no, no personal experience here. But one of the things that I observed is, like, there brand of man who recognized that my dad was a big, strong, beat -up -looking dude. And they were like, I should probably leave that guy alone. He looks like he broke his nose on purpose multiple times.

0:29:49 Tom: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:30:12 Eli: There was also a percentage of the population that was like, ah, another fighting enthusiast. Hello, good sir. Fisticuffs today? I notice you're parking too close to my vehicle. Right, and so like that's another thing to prepare someone with a large body for, is like, hey, just so you know, there's a percentage of the population that's going to like prove themselves worthy by violencing at you. Than

0:30:16 Thomas: Yeah. I cannot imagine, like, I'm not trying to even just be like a fucking beta woke woke cuck or whatever. I can't imagine that mindset. Like it can't relate to anything less than like looking around. Well, yeah, just like, well, I mean, Hey man, I'll throw down if there's a reason, but like the, wanting to test.

0:30:43 Eli: Wanting to fight, but starting it, yeah.

0:30:49 Thomas: Yeah. Like, Oh, this'll, this will be the test of my masculine. It's like, what are you dude? I have so much to do, you know, like I'm just too busy.

0:30:49 Eli: Yeah. Yes. The That I list in terms of contesting my masculinity against another man, first of all, they both both include us fucking each other. But so many more things above that list before fighting. Before fighting.

0:31:09 Tom: Like I did not shock myself awake for this. That is not, I'm not getting fucking. Oh, I also, I gave Finn, by the way, my, my shock watch the the other day to wake him up, uh, it was funny so he

0:31:16 Eli: Yes, exactly.

0:31:22 Thomas: Oh my God. That's

0:31:23 Eli: How do you like it?

0:31:23 Thomas: Technically child abuse. I think

0:31:24 Eli: Yeah,

0:31:25 Tom: Was afraid of it, like he was afraid yeah.

0:31:25 Eli: I was going to say.

0:31:25 Thomas: I, I think I need to. Yeah. Yes.

0:31:27 Tom: He was afraid of him, but

0:31:27 Thomas: Yes, Tom.

0:31:27 Eli: Yeah, it's an electronic shock, man.

0:31:28 Tom: Yeah.

0:31:30 Thomas: Does that tell you anything? Uh, most regular people are afraid of electricity.

0:31:30 Tom: So this oh, it's fine-ish, it just hurts. So like, like but I do think like I would go to, I would go back to this before we, we close out the episode though, because like, it's also important to note all the ways this guy sucks that have nothing to do with him being a guy, like like, I think it's important to, you know, piece apart, and then everybody can like tear me apart in the comments, because I think there's a role for protection, but like, this guy had like every opportunity in the world to intervene in any sense. Like, he has, he actually has the most useful intervention device man has ever created in his fucking hand, and he's looking at it, and he could have like called for help. He He could have like, could have done literally anything that this woman ended up

0:31:40 Eli: It does just hurt. It's true.

0:31:51 Thomas: Yeah.

0:32:20 Thomas: Tom

0:32:20 Tom: Doing.

0:32:21 Thomas: Do yes. And he could have also been like, Oh, well, Oh shit. I didn't know that I was so into my candy crush. Oh, Oh babe. I would have helped a hundred percent.

0:32:28 Eli: Oh, babe, I would have sprinkled. His balls would have been the sprinkle there, if you know what I'm saying.

0:32:31 Thomas: Oh, man, why I ought to, you know, like, even like, that's why this guy is such a fucking sociopath. He's just like, oh, no, you don't understand. Like, I didn't intervene because it was dangerous. It's

0:32:42 Eli: Right.

0:32:43 Tom: And it's like, he's okay. Not just with this stranger getting hurt. He's with his girlfriend getting hurt and there's, there's like a, a blindness that men have to the danger that women live within that is so fucking fucking unacceptable. And it makes them bad people. Like it makes you a bad, like just no excuses. It makes you bad person.

0:32:48 Thomas: Crazy. Absolutely crazy.

0:32:49 Eli: Right. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

0:33:07 Tom: If you are standing outside and you see a drunk lady getting harassed by some guy and he's trying to get in her Uber and you're so fucking blind or indifferent to that, even if his girlfriend hadn't gotten involved. I also think that we have an obligation, again, as, like, as the guys, the people who hold all the privilege, don't we have an obligation to keep our eyes open in the same way that women are, like, required to keep their eyes and ears open to survive? Shouldn't we keep our eyes opened as allies to, like, see when people are in danger? Yeah.

0:33:41 Eli: Yes.

0:33:41 Thomas: Absolutely. And be aware of how many ways of intervention there are that aren't final. Just by the way, when you're dealing with someone who's like that level of drunk, distraction. Just, Hey, Oh, you're wearing a cub shirt. Hey, the cub, did you see that? I hope they stay healthy this year. It's all about the coach.

0:33:53 Tom: There's a hundred things you could do that weren't violent. Yeah. Yeah.

0:33:55 Eli: Yeah.

0:33:56 Thomas: It started to get into Thompson. It stopped. Hey. Did you see they get there? Hey, it's, they got to play as a team. They got, I was

0:34:00 Eli: Try on this watch. Got him.

0:34:04 Tom: Yeah.

0:34:04 Eli: Secret Taser.

0:34:05 Tom: I'm not advocating for violence at all, like

0:34:11 Thomas: A little slow to that. That watch Oh, Shit.

0:34:12 Tom: Hey, wake you up now, stupid.

0:34:15 Thomas: He's dead. Run.

0:34:16 Tom: Nope, I, I said It's a six.

0:34:17 Eli: I said it to Tom. I gave him the one that Tom cherry -rigged himself with 6D batteries.

0:34:22 Thomas: Whoops, just wires coming out

0:34:25 Eli: Yeah. I should have said it in normal. That's on me.

0:34:29 Thomas: Of it. Fuck.

0:34:28 Tom: Oh, that's solar panels. You carry around solar panels? That's a lot. Just

0:34:32 Eli: Just when it's charging, yeah. Unless

0:34:36 Thomas: Where's it at, like a backpack?

0:34:39 Tom: Yeah, I'm not, I want, again, I'm not specifically advocating for any kind of violence. I don't think violence is the right intervention, but intervention is important, and this guy's like blindness, because when confronted he wasn't like, "Oh fuck, I didn't notice." That wasn't his response.

0:34:53 Thomas: Yeah, that's what I'm saying, like that would have been so much better. Just make some, I'm not one for lying, I would never do that, but if you're this scumbag, like, at least lie. That's a lie you tell. I also

0:34:54 Tom: Yeah.

0:35:00 Eli: He making up something from the New York Times. Am I right, everybody? Thomas Smith, serial sociopath, liar, that's what I always say. Can't stop making it up in

0:35:09 Tom: Yes,

0:35:11 Thomas: My other favorite thing about Reddit posts where somebody, in just the premise of their question, usually a woman, by the way, someone reveals that, like, oh, their partner just does not like or care about them in any way, and you have to be like

0:35:22 Tom: Man.

0:35:22 Eli: Any way shape or form he

0:35:23 Tom: All the time.

0:35:23 Thomas: Oh Man, how do you say that's not how anything should be? Like, the premise of your question is like, so yeah, so I got hit by a car and he was like, "Oh, I'm busy, babe," and I'm like, do I, what should I, how do I talk to him him about this? It's like, no, you don't.

0:35:38 Eli: Couldn't pause the game. You have to understand, he can't, he would just lose. He's if

0:35:39 Thomas: Yeah. No talking. There's no talking. That's just not, that person needs to go back to the person factory.

0:35:46 Eli: Your significant other is treating you worse than I would treat a stranger, you should break up with them all. Right, gentlemen, before we go, have you heard about the new sport called quiet tennis? Yeah, it's like regular tennis but without the racket. I

0:35:53 Thomas: I love it. Yay. It is not a weird, crazy boomer joke. That was good. I loved it. My favorite joke. Does this positive reinforcement thing work? Eli, that was so fucking funny. God, I loved

0:36:22 Eli: Don't like that. I don't like positive reinforcement. I like sexual

0:36:24 Thomas: Oh, you could you could do better by.

0:36:27 Eli: Bribery.

0:36:28 Thomas: All right. Hey, if it gets rid of those boomer jokes.

0:36:32 Tom: Like the boomer jokes. Bring back the boomer jokes all

0:36:33 Eli: Hey, well,

0:36:34 Thomas: Well, then you're going to have to fuck him harder in the other direction.

0:36:35 Eli: Everyone everyone's section this is what I was hoping for when we started the show. It's all coming together. I've

0:36:37 Tom: Right, I'll do it then. I'll fuck them harder.

0:36:43 Thomas: Oh,

0:36:47 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

0:37:29 Eli: Did that guy shit himself? Hiya!

0:37:31 Thomas: Person needs to go back to the person factory.

0:37:33 Tom: Now we're family, we love each other, we have the same thoughts, and like the did not shock myself awake for this. That

0:37:37 Eli: Try on this watch. Got him.