DOD177: Don't Punish the Behavior You Want to See

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad. That's my thing. I know now what I can offer you that no one else can. Complete and utter dependence. I'm a man. I'm sensitive. I need to feel loved. I need to be desired.

0:00:22 Clip: Telling is the only part of being a father that I enjoy.

0:00:28 Tom: To Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's, I don't know, some intro I didn't write. I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined, as always, by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick.

0:00:37 Thomas: On thin ice tom you're on thin thin fucking ice

0:00:39 Eli: Show back and he's already taking it easy.

0:00:41 Tom: I'm already coasting, guys. I're already coastING. Look.

0:00:44 Thomas: We've already had to put a note in your file

0:00:46 Eli: Theway, everybody Tom did not show up twice in a row. We record these one after the other. I don't want anyone to worry that he's gonna lose his stream game.

0:00:51 Thomas: Before they were yeah tbd on that we don't know we're not sure no

0:00:57 Tom: I was going to do the little pithy intro -y thing, but I didn't instead. And that's why I didn't do it. So,

0:01:02 Eli: Hey, Thomas, you know the only thing worse than Tom's attitude about our special radio program? Why?

0:01:07 Thomas: I I don't what is

0:01:09 Eli: It's the auto ads.

0:01:09 Thomas: The only thing worse yeah

0:01:11 Eli: Which may be welcome at this point, just from the reprieve you get from Tom's constant roasting.

0:01:16 Thomas: At least somebody wrote that at least somebody worked on it.

0:01:17 Eli: Put the effort in, put it into Spanish, Espanol, to try and get you to, I think, sign up for Verizon, at least the ones that I get. You But can get rid of those ads much as way Tom is getting rid of his work ethic over at patreon.com/dearolddads. Take it easy, lay back like Tom does in all things in life. patreon.com/dearolddads commercial free versions little special bonus episodes behind the scenes parenting stories we

0:01:46 Thomas: A monthly bonus episode, everyone, a monthly bonus

0:01:48 Eli: Monthly yes

0:01:48 Tom: To think of myself as the pillow princess of podcasting and just lay back and yeah, you

0:01:50 Thomas: Ever. And

0:01:52 Eli: You're the taylor swift of podcasting

0:01:54 Thomas: Unlike Tom, we we, make sure that episode comes every month. We do a monthly monthly bonus. We do an extra, how

0:01:59 Eli: Now keep

0:01:55 Tom: Guys do do a great job. Up yeah but

0:02:00 Eli: In mind it is being it is put out by thomas smith so when it comes out as anybody's guess you know it's a he has some kind of

0:02:04 Thomas: Dare you? It's the month or at least a day or two after the month. Like clockwork, you can set, you could set your clock to it. If you're fine with with your clock being a little off sometimes, you know? It's like, if

0:02:17 Eli: You see your seasonal calendar to it

0:02:19 Tom: If your clock has no actual value to you you can set your clock to it it's well

0:02:23 Eli: You can do all

0:02:21 Thomas: You're okay with a clock that's, like, pretty close, like, close enough, you don't have to worry about it. You know, like what? Yeah.

0:02:25 Eli: Sorts of a construct anyways thomas

0:02:32 Thomas: Time.

0:02:29 Tom: It's time-ish god fucking can

0:02:33 Eli: Smith times a contract anyways

0:02:36 Tom: We beat to death everybody who says anything as a construct can I think can we have that can that be a rule where anybody says that's just a construct and that then we get to say okay well so is the beating that you're about to receive that never ends because that is the most annoying thing just

0:02:40 Thomas: Constructs. We're all, yeah.

0:02:50 Eli: For you kids out there who think gender's a construct we love you and support you everyone else we're gonna beat them up just a quick side note

0:02:56 Thomas: Things are constructs – no, no. That's exactly – no.

0:02:57 Tom: It doesn't mean anything you didn't say anything

0:02:59 Thomas: No, no, it is a construct, but that doesn't matter. Like constructs are as real as anything. Yeah, Tom's on, we're on the right page.

0:02:58 Eli: Did

0:02:59 Tom: That's the problem yeah that yeah like

0:03:07 Thomas: Gender is a contract and it's very important for people. No, it's the opposite of that.

0:03:06 Eli: You guys start working for ffrf oh god special

0:03:11 Tom: Like no construct

0:03:12 Eli: Guest jerry coin on the pod everybody sorry

0:03:14 Thomas: It's, oh my God, beat the shit, dude. If I ever saw that little fucking guy, I

0:03:17 Tom: The the that's not what I mean at all I don't want to be conflated with that view

0:03:21 Thomas: Would punch that guy in the face so fast. That guy is such a piece of shit. I've hated that guy for 10 years.

0:03:21 Eli: Can speak from my heart about something about jerry coin I know it's a very important special day

0:03:30 Thomas: We, cause we want you to come on our show and do it. You don't have time. So no, you're not taking this time to do it, we're gonna cover it on our Show, and you don't get to fucking know.

0:03:35 Eli: I'm telling you this fucking kid's on christmas break my son's on Christmas break okay fine it's

0:03:42 Thomas: I'm just, you can fine, just say fine, fine.

0:03:37 Tom: You're not doing it twice

0:03:43 Eli: Fine go over to where is I just I think now that he's exposed himself for who he really is we can admit that he probably started his blog because he looks so much like a monkey like like if

0:03:55 Thomas: You could say that, we're not gonna say that. That's fine.

0:03:57 Eli: Me if you showed me a picture of that guy and they were like he proves that evolution is real I'd be like yeah because he's a monkey that guy's a that guy is a monkey pretending to be a person and he talks about evolution all the time yes

0:04:03 Thomas: Like he's an activist for the, like, Like, he does, he does look, yes, this is true. Specifically a planet of the apes type, like the old, you know, the 70s ones or whatever, 60s?

0:04:14 Eli: Exactly he looks he looks like an extra that tim roth yelled at and he left set still in makeup patreon .com forward slash dear old dads

0:04:24 Tom: It constructs

0:04:25 Thomas: What are we talking about? Yeah. No, that's the, that was my, yeah, let's go back. I'm with you, Tom.

0:04:28 Tom: Going back to that I'm going back here's here's the thing here's the the problem with that phrase just a construct is not the construct part. It's the just part. Are important. They impact every single part of your day-to-day life. Everything.

0:04:36 Thomas: It's the just, yeah.

0:04:43 Tom: Money's just a construct. Yeah.

0:04:43 Eli: Day -to -day not mine

0:04:44 Tom: You can still go broke or you can still be rich. And those are really different experiences.

0:04:48 Thomas: Was exactly going to bring up that example. That's such a sophomore at college thing that people do. You know, if we all all decided tomorrow that that green paper wasn't worth it's just paper man it's just yeah no true if we all decided a lot of things tomorrow it would change every anything if we are all decided X then that would be fucking you know what's the hard part getting people all decide we can't get 50 % of people to decide not the worst fucking president in the world you think we can get all people to decide whatever you know like this thing isn't worth anything anymore

0:04:52 Tom: What a stupid thing to say. Yes.

0:05:18 Eli: Way more than 50 decided that he's the president

0:05:19 Tom: Look, if you're not a consequentialist, yes, you are in terms of of how you live your life right like and in terms of like every decision you make always and we're living a consequentialist existence so like you don't get to be like it's just a construct and pretend you said something you didn't say anything at all nothing I

0:05:38 Eli: Counterpoint as someone who uses this term on a pretty regular basis sometimes sometimes you did a bad thing or said a bad thing and

0:05:42 Tom: Hate you and you want to dismiss it

0:05:49 Eli: Someone would like to hold you responsible let's say he then right wants to hold you responsible to the meaning of words and you and you've already said that's neither here nor there it

0:06:01 Tom: Well wait did you did you try it is what it is

0:06:03 Eli: Is why I try I is what it is all the time I is where it is all the time I'm

0:06:07 Thomas: I'm out of ideas then yeah

0:06:06 Tom: Because yeah that's it I mean

0:06:09 Thomas: Maybe you should just own up to something no that's not an option

0:06:12 Eli: Honestly I'm looking in my reserves right here and all I've got out left is poe but he's nerfect and I don't want to have to pull out poe but he nerfect because this is vehicular manslaughter and I take that very seriously god

0:06:20 Tom: Show

0:06:15 Thomas: We just just recently restarted the good place for the first for the second time sorry first rewatch and I forgot how fucking good oh tom you're in on that show okay I didn't know know, I know you never have time for anything.

0:06:31 Tom: Is so good oh that show is fucking great

0:06:36 Thomas: So I never know if you've seen anything. It's so fucking, and here's the thing. I, we never rewatched it. And so I will, I'm so anti-spoilers. I will never spoil anything that watching that show. Once you know, the entirety of it is such a different experience. And it's like, Oh my God, it's all there from the very beginning, from the Very beginning. It is so fucking good there. Anyway, one of the episodes had, she says, Poe, but he's Merfic or whatever. Nerfic. I messed that up. Poe buddies. Merfic is what I said just for

0:06:30 Eli: That show's great poe

0:06:38 Tom: That show's fucking great

0:07:03 Eli: Buddy's

0:07:04 Thomas: The record. I'm not cutting that.

0:07:04 Eli: Nerfect yeah it's a whole

0:07:05 Thomas: Anyway, yeah, just remind me of that. And if anyone would like to watch an incredibly amazing, good show with great values and you know, check it out. It's not making good things anymore. So go watch the old things.

0:07:05 Eli: Thing y 'all they set up the problems of an infinite afterlife and give a good answer in that ab what was abc in that abc nbc whatever it fucking is 43 minute sitcom they were like hey so there are some problems with the idea of heaven can we make a funny show that answers those problems

0:07:22 Thomas: It's amazing. NBC, Fox, one of those. Yeah. 20. It is only 20.

0:07:38 Tom: Show had no right to exist in the cultural context it lives in no

0:07:39 Thomas: It's Michael Schur. He's the best ever. Yeah.

0:07:41 Eli: Done yeah how it possibly got I mean truly how it possibly got made right

0:07:45 Tom: Idea yeah and I

0:07:44 Thomas: Good. Finished. Like it wasn't canceled like one season in, you know, like it's amazing.

0:07:51 Eli: Cause there's always the one season where they set up the smart thing and then some douchebag looks up from his treadmill made of babies and is like not enough not enough cops having it hard job hey can we just make one cop show called cop show for grandma to die to and save everyone time it just it's on its own network we'll give it out for free right and it'll just be a series of handsome people walking in and being like looks like this perp was on the wrong side of the law and grandma's like yay

0:07:53 Thomas: Our society is like, nope. What? Yep. Yeah, yep.

0:08:24 Eli: It's we need another 97 blue blood red fire emergency 9 -1 -1 jag you

0:08:31 Thomas: I wish I I wish they would make one realistic cop show. One. Just give me one somewhere. I don't care if it's on. I don'T care if

0:08:39 Eli: Kill dogs on tv man they're very explicit

0:08:40 Thomas: That's what

0:08:40 Tom: Hide that evidence it doesn't

0:08:41 Thomas: I'm saying. If you did, if you made it, no one watched because it's it's off. Obviously, politically, no one would watch it, but also it's not interesting, like because it'S just like, oh, hey, someone in lockup said that this guy did it. Oh, oh, I forgot about that kid. Oh, OK. I guess maybe they did it and probably they didn't, by the way. Also, like it could be that they just did it to get a deal or something. That's the extent of their cop powers really

0:09:02 Tom: Well we're pursuing jim on this one have we looked at any other alternative theories nope I'm not going to either so

0:09:08 Eli: Let me pitch you this let me pit you this we relaunch brooklyn 99 the most mystifying of cop shows but

0:09:13 Tom: Good

0:09:13 Thomas: Good hey michael sure isn't it same guy fucking he's the best

0:09:17 Eli: They behave like real cops right so instead of being like a wacky band of lovable goofballs like Andy Samberg just keeps shooting innocent black men, right? They just keep torturing people until they confess. And Monotone Cop is like, uh -oh, it looks like we have told someone that we had evidence of them on tape, so they agreed to confess because we thought, uh oh, I'm gay. And we'll be like, ah -ha -ha, we didn't expect you to be gay. My beliefs about gay men are problematic. So it's a lot of fun, that show. I love that show a lot.

0:09:27 Tom: Jesus christ

0:09:53 Thomas: An idea that's a an idea okay all

0:09:56 Eli: If like to get brooklyn nine nine nine eleven started reach out to me tv executives

0:10:04 Thomas: Right tom we've saved this one for you

0:10:07 Tom: Oh thank you I this is something that's been floating on I also want to

0:10:09 Eli: Happy thanksgiving everybody I think this one might be a little on the late side are

0:10:12 Tom: I know I'm sorry so and actually real quick shout out to the dear old dad's uh page because I had found this image uh somewhere on the internet and I posted it in the wrong place uh I couldn't find it I posted, hey, I think I this thing. Can someone help me find it? Within minutes, within minutes, one of our fans found this for us. So I just want to shout that out.

0:10:32 Eli: We allowed to use the facebook group like that because I gotta rejoin then I just be like hey guys aunt wife left her keys and wallet somewhere in our house and she's been asking me to call them for the last 20 minutes

0:10:35 Tom: So man, they're really helpful, actually. They found it in like 10 seconds. I like vaguely described this.

0:10:45 Thomas: Well okay tom this is I I hate to do this but we've had this discussion of how do we handle this with our wives and I'm firmly or anyone and I firmly have the position that I'm just a bad person on this but when my wife shows me a meme that I've already seen the level of insulted I feel for no reason for no reasons like oh you should have known that I I would already have seen this random internet thing. It's the thing about me. It might be the single dumbest thing about me and that's saying something. The I feel for no reason. You're showing me a meme that I've seen? Are of your mind? And I'm trying to contain it, but Tom, this thing is really old and I think I've even talked about it already. It's really good. So you shouldn't be, the reason I say that is it wasn't like that impressive that people found it for you because it's like it's pretty you know it's been around

0:11:27 Tom: It's so good. What's impressive is how poorly I described what I was looking for. No I described it because like here's

0:11:36 Thomas: Fair you're like it had words and uh it was like uh the internet the

0:11:42 Tom: So bad with the details of everything I'll be like that kind of got the gist of it anyway it's something about like this like that's the best I ever do because I always forget everything and like within seconds they found it so I want to read this I think it's great

0:11:52 Thomas: Group was like yeah it's the wallpaper of the facebook group that's why we got nothing

0:11:55 Tom: So let me let me read this because I just think it'S so good do punishment behavior you want to see I mean it It seems pretty obvious when you put it like that, right? But how many families, when an introvert sibling or child makes an effort to socialize, will snarkily say, so you've decided to join us? Or when someone does something they've had trouble doing, say, why can't you do that all the time? Or any sentence containing the word, finally. If someone makes a step, a small step, in a direction you want to encourage, then encourage it. Don't complain about how it's not enough. Don't bring up previous stuff. Just encourage it because I swear to fucking God, there's nothing more soul killing, more motivation crushing than struggling to succeed and finding out that success and failure are both punished. It's so good.

0:12:43 Thomas: Never have I resonated with anything more in my entire I mean this is this I'm so glad to do this this of all the things I've ever read consumed listened to anything about parenting or about just having having kids. This is number one. This is the number one ever. I think about this every day, every day. I think about this because like, I don't know if it's just because I had a family that was particularly shitty about this, probably that, but it's one of those things where, you from time to time, we, we hear the science that says like, actually nothing you do as a parent matters and it's pointless and your kids are going to end up the same. I don't totally believe it. I mean, I think there's probably some issues with how you do those experiments, but like on the whole, that's kind of true. Like I your kids are kind of your kids. You can really ruin them. But like it's the difference between A plus parenting, B minus, you it's know, not really much.

0:13:26 Eli: You can only make mistakes as a parent right

0:13:29 Thomas: This much. But this is one of those things where I think, you Know what? I you if I could run the fucking simulation of our universe differently, the difference between me seeing this and realizing making this recognition that, oh, my God, this was my whole childhood and saying, I'm never going to do that. And in fact, I's going to exactly what this meme suggests every single time. It's so present in my mind. I don't think I've ever messed this one up because it's so present my mind because that's how hard I resonated with it. I genuinely think that's going to make a difference in my kids' lives. I, I genuinely think this whatever genius, whatever saint wrote this, I genuinely think they might have changed my kids lives. I'm not even joking. It's so perfect.

0:14:05 Tom: Is something my dad did all the time. My dad did this all the Time. And I will say this is Something that I do have to bite my tongue to prevent myself from doing. There know, I've talked on this show and I'll tell you a real specific stuff. I've talking on the show about the food issues that Aislinn and Donovan have. And when they try something, which is rare and they like it, there is a part of me that wants to pick them up and scream in their faces and be like, I fucking told you you would like it. Why did you try it five years ago? Just fucking listen. Instead of being like, I'm so proud of you, right? Right. Like there's a part of you as a parent that is like, get I, it. Like I get it as a parents on a visceral level that it's like, yeah, it's easier when you do the thing I said, of course it is. That's why I fucking said it. Cause I've lived 46 years of enduring the hardest things you've got fucking learned lessons. And I thought about them and I condensed them and

0:14:43 Eli: People

0:15:03 Tom: Just fucking just, you just want like why would I be spending all this time and fucking energy trying to make your life better you fucking asshole you know like I get it so like I get it but like you can't do it you fucking cannot do it you can not do it it's

0:15:02 Eli: In and out your fucking car wash you go to the car wash get your car washed you don't even work there

0:15:18 Thomas: But that that one there's a fine line so so much to talk about and I want to ask Eli does is this this something that resonated with you at all is this

0:15:25 Eli: It is not a thing that happened to me it's a thing I work very hard not to do which as tom just pointed out so beautifully is really hard not zu do uh I think think I've talked a couple of times about max sort of going through a hitting slash just general toddler phase and the herculean effort it requires after he has been punching me in the fucking face for 20 minutes and then lets me put on his coat and walk out the door for me to go hey buddy I'm really proud of you you made such good decisions right now like no lie I can't tell like if they put me on the stand to get Luigi off I will be his rock hard alibi because I'll

0:15:37 Tom: So hard

0:16:10 Thomas: For sure that

0:16:10 Eli: Just be like no we were there and they'll be there I'll pass any lie detector test you can pull Morlock the truth teller from his dimension of nothing but aughts and I will fool him after the amount of times I have told a four year old who just finished scratching my eyeballs that he's making good decisions

0:16:11 Thomas: Example everyone will yeah

0:16:32 Tom: It's also it's the way this stuff is said it's so fucking passive -aggressive it's oh look who decided to join us look one the one of the most like fucking like personality killing bullshit ways to treat another person was with this like indirect passive -aggressive critical bullshit everybody hates it literally nobody responds well to this right

0:16:50 Thomas: My parents were so fucking bad at this and I can just remember the feeling of okay I'm gonna try to do this something and then you're facing whatever issue was causing you to not do something you're already facing that which is you know you're a fucking kid so it's something it's it's that the kids thought there's something going on. There's that plus then the learned memory of, oh, great. And now I got to fucking get harassed about it. If I even decide to do the right thing, the quote unquote, right thing. Now I got To get harass and made fun of in front of everybody about it awesome. It's fucking great. It is the worst people who do this. You are doing a bad fucking thing and you need to stop. Now we all slip up occasionally. And there is a fine line too, because I do think you can do some amount of reinforcement in a way that that it like it's sometimes a fine Like your example with the food, I one where Phoebe just, you know, when she perpetually would not trust me on stuff and because she's so anxious, she thinks I'm going to get her killed. And I do try to do the like, hey, see, so like, I think there's a fine line between doing something that's still positive and you're there with them versus, oh, look who decided to finally fucking, you you know, whatever. I think there's a way to say, Hey, so think about that experience. Like it really hard. You you battled through it and then it didn't end up being that bad, you know? Like, so, you Know, there's way to do it in a way that's still empathetic and with them, but still reinforces the idea that

0:18:09 Thomas: Like, Hey try to remember this next time is essentially like what, you the message that you tried in still it's a fine line. And maybe you guys can disagree if maybe I shouldn't even be trying to do that. I don't know, but like the difference between that and oh Look who who look here's Billy fucking go try to shut it's like god damn it. Just kill yourself. It's the worst

0:18:26 Tom: It's a golf I agree with you because I will say sometimes with the kids especially the older kids like not so much amen but like Aislinn for sure Donovan for sure Finn for sure like when they do something and they're just like and they'll express amazement sometimes that the thing that they did worked that I've been telling them to fucking do or whatever I'll just be like yeah man like told you about that I'm just trying to love you like that's all I'm trying to do like when I give you this advice like here trying to make your life better and easier and I'm I'm just trying to love you. That's like all I do with all of the efforts that I put into you, you know, is just this like, I do sometimes do that. I will say like, I do Sometimes do that and the same thing with the food stuff. Like, it's not like I've never said to her.

0:18:51 Thomas: Read the blog read the fucking Yeah Well, Well, we should all agree. There's an age where we can start saying see I fucking told you so kit like what's I don? Don't know what that age is is it 18 is it 15 is it you know? Now

0:19:17 Eli: I to Anna about this all the time which is that I think on Max's like 30th birthday, right? Should just like bring over like two sets of boxing gloves. And he's like, dad, what are these for? And I'm like, you won't keep the passy in your mouth. You want the passie. You cry when you don't have the passi, you keep spitting out the pass.

0:19:23 Thomas: Eli's going to be bursting, bursting. Going to be lighting the candles on Max's birthday cake. Will be like Roger Rabbit when the guy is knocking the shave in the haircut and he'll be like, and dying Eli to say, I told you so on all this stuff.

0:19:49 Eli: Yeah. I realized the other day that it had been a month where my son had hit me every single day, that it had been 30 days and I can't there's a really cool and chill place you get to where you're like now is bad and you just literally wait for now to be over right like if you're a smart person you spend your whole life being like I'm gonna communicate and and then you just hit a point in your life where you're Like no the clock just goes round round round round and then and then this thing is over or I get brave there's two things there's two outcomes round

0:20:11 Thomas: My God. Oh man. Oh boy.

0:20:34 Eli: Round round over round round around brave so all I have to do is sit here I just have to sit here it's the best and also not be a jerk to my kid about it like as long as I I don't tell him he's good.

0:20:48 Thomas: Just wait till that 30th birthday, baby. Me.

0:20:50 Eli: That's right, dude.

0:20:50 Tom: There are parts of parenting, though, I agree that you're just like, I'm going to endure this. That is what I'm that is the way I'm gonna get through it is I am going to wait for time to pass and then that will be done now. And that is how we will get through this stage. Like I think about like Remy sometimes with this, Thomas, like with the with this squalling and like I'm sure you guys have tried literally everything plus more things.

0:21:12 Thomas: Well, I didn't want to bring it up because of don't want to like what Eli's going through at all. Cause that's horrible. But the complicating factors when you have, uh, is when, imagine if you had another kid that Max was hitting, then you can't just be like, I'll just wait. It's like now like your kids getting beat up. Like you have to find a way to do it.

0:21:18 Eli: Your son's way worse than mine. Name is Marjorie Tyrell, and she suffers at his hands on a regular basis.

0:21:35 Thomas: Really? Does he hit the dog? Dog oh god she's brave she's gotten brave I

0:21:36 Eli: No, she fucks him up. There's two times where he's been, like, I want to hit Magi. And Magi, who fucking speaks English, apparently is like, I wish you fucking would, man. I would like to point out Madge sounds that way because we've removed many of her teeth. So that's how she sounds right now when I do her voice.

0:21:42 Tom: What,

0:21:55 Thomas: Love the idea too like I I know we all believe in the the gentle parenting but it's like oh occasionally you fuck with something that doesn't believe in gentle parenting oh oh that's not part of the gimmick hey that dog right there that's not in on it she'll

0:21:56 Tom: You've removed her teeth? Yeah.

0:22:08 Eli: Hey, sorry. Madge hasn't read How Toddlers Thrive. If you don't stop petting her when she tells you to stop, she's going to bite your hand.

0:22:15 Thomas: Deck you yeah you'll just see the paw go like across the face like

0:22:21 Tom: You know everything everything about this like piece of advice is such a big deal because like I also think and I don't want to like infantilize this or be paternalistic but I I'm gonna I'm gonna offer like when hayley was trying to quit smoking when was she was really struggling to quit smoking and I was not agnostic to her quitting smoking Right. Like her quitting smoking was like a hugely like I wanted her to quit smoking so fucking much. I hated everything about the smoking. I hated how dangerous it was. I hated, honestly, like the way it smells, like it was really like a bummer. A giant bummer, and then like, honestly the thing I hated the most is like smokers spend 20 % of their lives sitting outside just by themselves.

0:22:41 Eli: Tom is an atheist. He did not believe that Haley smoked.

0:23:01 Thomas: My god yep with other

0:23:04 Tom: So, so like 20 % of your life is just, yeah, just like, even in your just day -to -day house, it's just like every hour, every hour or so it's like, okay, like if you're going to go through 20 cigarettes and you're like a pack of cigarette smoker, right? You're going through 20 cigarets. It takes 10, 15 minutes to smoke a cigarette. You're awake for call it 16 hours. That means a little more than every hour you're spending 10 or 15 minutes just sitting outside. So it's a quarter of your lifetime. It's just not available.

0:23:04 Thomas: People who smoke so that too yeah shit maybe I need to take up smoking I'm not getting outside enough what

0:23:34 Tom: You just do the math on it, you dude, yeah, right.

0:23:35 Thomas: If the doctor told me like you know thomas actually at this point I think it would be better for you if you took up smoking like

0:23:43 Tom: Just going to start smoking just for the fucking break of it. Like, yeah, yeah.

0:23:44 Thomas: Well I I've been outside for 15 minutes this last year so like man have you considered smoking

0:23:51 Tom: I'm afraid if I go outside, I just won't come back in sometimes though. You know, just like, I Just, he just kept walking, but So it was a big deal. It was a big deal to me that she quit smoking, but like I realized very early on in our conversations about it, that the best thing to do is when we had our conversations again, I'm going to switch over. I'm gonna stop smoking. And every time she didn't smoke was just positive. It was like, Hey, I noticed you skipped your, your cigarette after we finished the movie. And I just wanted to say, thank you. That is so much more effective than like, Oh, finally, you're not smoking that cigarette.

0:24:22 Tom: Right? Like we know this, we know this. And she even made mention of it. She's like, I think the only thing that got me through it was that all I ever heard from you was all the good things that I did all I was like yeah because I'm trying to like like gently we're trying to work together to achieve a result the same thing is true for parenting you're tryingto gently work togetherto achieve a result how the fuck does anybody think that like recrimination and shame are the best routes to to get there.

0:24:22 Thomas: For sure you know tom you bring up such a great point I didn't even think about this until just now. But I think you say infantilizing. Now they think about it. It's the opposite. It is treating someone like a person is treating something like an adult. I think the infantile thing to do is to see the behavior and be like, oh, finally, you did the thing. That's like that's an infant. Being an adult is having the wherewithal. And I think it's genuinely adults need to do this with each other. I don't want to get political, but there's There's this popular sentiment on the far left, and it's embodied in a meme I saw like a year ago that was like the proper response to when the government does the right thing should be fuck you. Keep doing it. The proper response. To when they do whatever. It was one of those memes that was, like, stop idolizing. Yeah, it's like stop.

0:25:29 Tom: I fucking hate that shit. Yeah, right.

0:25:31 Thomas: There's a kernel of truth, and we shouldn't be idolizing politicians in a lot of ways. Like, obviously, a like current truth there, but it completely ignores just how fucking humans work. Do you think you're going to energize a movement where social rewards for it are, fuck you? Who you going to get to run for office? Who are we going to do? What bureaucrat are you gonna get to do anything ever by having that attitude of you should have already done this yesterday. Fuck you. It just doesn't work.

0:25:57 Thomas: It doesn't. It's all the morals about it that will never in a million years create anything good. It won't. It'll make a bunch of assholes be more like assholes and nothing will get done.

0:25:57 Tom: It doesn't it. Know with certainty that nobody responds well to well you should have done that in the first place. Right because it's like I will fuck you then like I don't then

0:26:15 Thomas: Then I won't do it next time. That's the answer. I will not do it. Next time will be the answer.

0:26:18 Tom: Thing is like if I shit no matter what I do I'm going to choose the path of least resistance because I'm not getting any reward for the harder thing. So if I don't get any reward and kids are this way, everybody's this way. Grown ass people. And it's crazy to me how much we know about human behavior and psychology. And we implement exactly the other thing because we're just mad and we're emotionally dysregulated and we do the exact opposite of the things that that we know, we know it with a dead ass fucking literal scientific certainty on how to best motivate people. And the thing is like, if you've gone to school, I don't know, like me to be a fucking teacher, you learn this stuff. If you are in business school, you learn This stuff, if You are training a dog, you Learn the same stuff. It's always the same stuff. None of the stuff changes. The thing is, like, you recognize that people will move toward reward rewards and so if you have a rewards based methodology for treating people to change their behaviors you can change their behaviors fairly swiftly and everybody is happy and everybody feels loved and validated and rewarded but instead we're just like oh finally you decided to clean your room and it's like next time I will shit in my room and smear it on the walls no

0:27:13 Thomas: Always the same.

0:27:43 Eli: And what's weird is it doesn't even feel good to do right

0:27:48 Tom: Yeah

0:27:48 Eli: Like you've never done that to someone and we've all done it right you've ever done that to someone had been like feel really great I feel like they really understood what I was going through right because I've never been like wow I'm really hurt by that behavior oh no coming up with me oh man oh if anna ever decides to end things I'm doing nothing but that bit the whole time Oh, if it isn't mrs. Here are the divorce papers. You have to sign them I violating my restraining order again? Oh

0:27:55 Tom: Crush that

0:28:16 Thomas: Man.

0:28:26 Tom: Yeah

0:28:26 Thomas: Now I'm realizing Eli, I think we made a mistake. Tom, I was so good that you showed up for work, um, for the show. We really respected and love that.

0:28:34 Eli: Sorry. Hey, buddy Hey, you made really good choices

0:28:38 Thomas: Love how you did that.

0:28:38 Eli: Today and today there

0:28:33 Tom: All right yeah yeah well I mean eli said that I wasn't gonna get my zell otherwise so

0:28:40 Eli: Are good consequences

0:28:41 Thomas: You're been 30 minutes and you're still, you're still on the show too, buddy. That's, ah, and,

0:28:48 Tom: But I mentally checked out so I mean I just I want to say like I've been on break for the last 10 minutes I don't know probably can tell.

0:28:49 Eli: That's true, yeah, no, that's true. Yeah

0:28:54 Thomas: And I will say as someone who has nothing, but Eli and I've talked about this in different ways, nothing, but the worst goblin instincts. My first instinct obviously is I, wish I could unlearn. It sucks that it takes five minutes to learn the worst behaviors and then a lifetime and you still never unlearn them. You're just have to like compensate, you know, it's, it'S amazing how fucking humans were. I think it's evolution just didn't want us to be alive. It just did not care if we were alive past 13 or something, you Know, like really, whenever you get your first boner, then evolution's like, all right, I'm, I'M done with you. It doesn't matter anymore.

0:29:26 Thomas: Cause like Like it's, you're imprinted in. So my first worst instinct is always bad. But I will say it don't do it enoughh, but this is something, I do it with the kids 100%. That is something I very rarely, I don't know if I've ever fucked this one up because like I said, it really is important to me. I think about it all the time. But I will say with Lydia, I think it is really important for adults to think about this with each other and I don't do it enoug. Like I it is the adult thing to do. And I know I don't do it enough. And the times that I do Think of doing it, it's a really pleasurable feeling of feels like a real act of love. You know, it Feels like a real act Of love to be like, I am having these petty shitty instincts that I want to be Like, oh, look who decided to do the thing. You Know, you just, for some reason, we just, well, okay. The reason is I had the worst fucking upbringing in that that respect. Like it just absolute worst examples. That feeling of like, oh, wait, I need to recognize that this particular thing might've been really hard for someone that wasn't me. You know, like this might seem easy to me. It's obviously not easy to the other person.

0:29:23 Tom: That's it. That's it? Yeah.

0:30:23 Thomas: Hence why we're having this fucking conversation to begin with. So treat it as such, treat it as a thing that was difficult for someone and they overcame it. And that's what it was, you know? And it's, it feels like a real act of love. It'S, it'S something I ought to do more.

0:30:36 Tom: There's a situation in our house that in my brain, I keep solving this way. I want to describe to you because this is how my dad would have solved it in our House. We have three cats and there is instructions on the grout bag like

0:30:49 Eli: Have you tried being grounded?

0:30:45 Thomas: Tile the floor about it. Every day.

0:30:52 Eli: You should be grounded.

0:30:52 Tom: So we have three cats and if you have cats you know sometimes you get a hairball sometimes a cat pukes it's just like cats are just trash and they just constantly do something gross and I am the only one that cleans up any cat mess like donovan takes care of the cat boxes but if a cat throws up or coughs up a hair ball like kids will just walk around it what

0:31:00 Thomas: Every fucking day. It's weird, Tom? Is it weird that we're the only ones who notice stuff like that? Crazy. Crazy that no one else notices.

0:31:16 Tom: But see that's the thing I have in my brain I have an entire like shitty rhetoricals right that like it's like I want to like grab a kid and be like oh can I walk over and belike do you can you see this is this a thing that you because some you can see it well enough not to walk in it you

0:31:20 Thomas: Schtick. Can see me right now? Wave your hand in front of him. Yeah, I'm

0:31:32 Tom: Know

0:31:32 Eli: Tom, this is what, yeah. What you got to do is you got to cover yourself in cat vomit and hair balls and then walk downstairs and be like, woo, I am invisible.

0:31:41 Thomas: A ghost.

0:31:40 Tom: I am the stick in my head where I where I I walk up to Donovan and I'm like, hey, you've got an eye doctor appointment at three o'clock. What? Why? Oh, because you're fucking going blind. That's why. Because you obviously can't see the goddamn cat puke on the fucking floor. You know, like it's like a whole thing. Right. I would never do it.

0:31:45 Thomas: Tom. I think we should do our

0:32:01 Tom: I would not do it at all. I wouldn't ever do it, right?

0:32:01 Thomas: Schticks to each other. We need, that's what we need to do, yeah,

0:32:02 Eli: Cross houses. Yes,

0:32:04 Tom: Would. I don't know. I mean, I would do it every day, but I wouldn' t do it because I don' t know how to do it right now. Oh, oh,

0:32:04 Thomas: Cross houses,

0:32:05 Eli: You guys need to do a terrible bosses is you go to each other's houses and you do your passive aggressive bits at the other one's family.

0:32:11 Thomas: So weird that I'm the only one who has a sense of smell in this house, isn't that weird, isn't that fucking bizarre, no one else can smell the obvious fucking cat shit and pee that's right here, it's so hard, yeah,

0:32:19 Tom: That that shit makes me crazy. That is exactly what my dad would have done my dad growing up would have been like oh I'm the only one that understands what a dishwasher is nobody else knows how to load a dishwasher let me hold your hand and load the dishwasher with you so you can learn how to load a dishwasher he would have known this whole but he would've done it right he would have done the shitty rhetoricals bit and then you're just like man I was just thinking about other stuff and like I know why the kids don't do it it's because there's deeply in their own own world because they're kids, because they've had up until, you know, this gradual expansion of responsibilities, they've not been responsible for anything. And they don't just wake up one day and say, oh, I should just be responsible for more stuff. It's this conscientiousness process that is a raising of awareness that you have to build with them. And again, you have have to reinforce and

0:33:09 Thomas: You gotta be in charge of your own shit, like, mean you have to have the experience of being in charge of your own shit to then realize, oh, there's so much to this. When you're just staying at someone's house, you know, when you're just a kid and, you know, your parents are just the fucking hoteliers, you know, it's like can you're yell at them all you want. They're never going to truly like embody that until they just do it themselves. Like, that's just how people are.

0:33:35 Tom: I like the more like, I think about this sometimes, like the, I think the, the more we're conscious on our, on our side as parents of what behavior we're trying to encourage, the more we can actually get elicit that behavior. I also think another part of this that that, is really frequent is that we're not actively trying to create a new behavior. What we're we're doing is getting shitty about something that didn't happen the way we want it to happen. And there's a big difference there because one is proactive, which means you can have a plan and you can get there and you Can go from point A to point B. And we do that with all kinds of stuff with little kids. And We stopped doing that as kids get older with little kids. We do it like, oh, I'm going to potty train them. You don't just like, Oh, did you want to pee in a diaper until you're 40? Is that what you want? Like you don't do that stuff because we understand that that's a lousy way to get to the, to to get it to the end line. Right. I think as kids get older and as they get more like conscious and mature and independent, we start to kind of lose focus on being like, Hey, want to raise the chore awareness. I wantto raise the awareness of the kids so they can see the little things that need to be done. What's the best way for me to do that? And like to really have that thought process in your head about like, what would be the best way for me to do that I've got a I've gotta grab this call um I'm gonna put you guys I'm going to okay hello

0:34:50 Thomas: A thought. I really want to get out about this that I will never remember again if we don't do, but do we want to do it on our own? Do we want a pretend Tom still here and didn't talk? Do we do that one?

0:35:01 Eli: That's let's do that one yeah

0:35:02 Thomas: Okay. So this reminds me of something, Eli, that I feel like you you might relate to this a bit. Uh, two things.

0:35:07 Eli: One second thomas sorry tom shut the fuck up don't you say a word while thomas is giving this opinion do you hear me that's right go ahead thomas and

0:35:21 Thomas: Shut the fuck up. You sit there. No, don't hang up. You sit There.

0:35:23 Eli: You and you just fucking listen

0:35:26 Thomas: You, this is how podcasting is done. Okay. You want to learn something? Um, reminds me of something, uh two things for one, there's one thing that I, I think I've mentioned this, but this is something I just decided on my own. It's semi -related to this, but I'm so glad I did because I think it's an investment that particularly with Phoebe, and we'll see probably Remy eventually once he can understand it. But I decided that my kids, no matter what's happening, I decided, hey, you can always have a hug. And I decided I'm going to emphasize this a lot. And, I think, it has made such a difference. And the key is I've been really consistent. I think its, it might be a hard thing to introduce once things are already fraught because when it comes to Phoebe, it's tough. Oh, we're having struggles. She, she still has kind of the same struggles where she goes from zero to infinity angry instantly because of whatever, you know, like whatever example, if we're doing a drawing together and it's not exactly how she thinks she'll, she'll lose her mind and have it. She She says all the stuff. She hates me. She hates everything. She's never going to draw again. She hates the house. She doesn't want to live here. She all that stuff. And early on, made I sure to emphasize, hey, do you do you want to hug? You can always have a hug. And it's really worked because I've noticed that even she's in like know, these absolute fits, I think she knows now that like she can always Have a hug and whatever bullshit she just spouted at me about hating my guts and all the everything she She just said she knows it doesn't count, which I think is

0:36:55 Thomas: Good. I mean, you could see a bad side to that. You know, I wouldn't want her to think she can say whatever without any consequences. But I don't really think that's a danger. I think she already knows that those things are wrong. She just literally can't help it in that moment. And it is really help because she'll occasionally I'll just I'll be like, do you want to hug? And she'll just like melt, you know, and she'll be like she's still upset, but she knows she has that safe space. What made me think of it, it's not exactly the same as the, oh, look who decided to show up, but it's like related to that in that no matter what the first thing was. So in that classic example of look who excited to come down to whatever, you know, that thing, there's the first behavior that was whatever it was. And it's related to what I'm saying in that it's creating a sense of safety for whatever that behavior was. It's creating a sense OF safe return. Like if she has these fits, she knows she can get a hug still. She can, I've tell her, you can always get

0:37:48 Thomas: A hug anytime. I don't care what's happened. No matter what you can always get ahead. I mean this. She could be the worst thing in the world because she's my kid. She can get a DUI and she'll get a hug. Obviously, it's horrible. Whatever it is, she's going to suffer whatever consequences societally, but

0:38:04 Eli: You should use something bad as an example so the audience understand oh

0:38:06 Thomas: Her whole life, I want her to always have that mindset. No no matter what it is, I will always be here for her because I'm so terrified. And, and I don't know if this will resonate with you, Eli, but like, I'm så terrified of mental health demons taking a kid away from me that I just want to create. And I don't care what it IS. I DON'T care what you did. I don't care if you just murdered someone, you can get a hug. It´s just like ,I want them to feel that way. Go

0:38:31 Eli: Well and you know what you're doing is you're nailing one of the major predictors of suicide which is the idea that a thing can be forever right when you instill that concept often and young and it's something that we do with mechs right is especially while we're talking about good and bad decisions I'll be like hey buddy right when I'm praising the good decisions I'd be like see it's never too late to make a good decision right you're never you've never made so many bad decisions you can't make a good one and I think what you're doing is you're creating a safe environment where she understands yeah now when I say and do these you know irresponsible things or when I make some bad choices you know I can still get that hug, but I think she will also, you have instilled in her a larger confidence that when I have strong emotions, when I feel this way strongly, right, will pass, that this is a thing that will pass that I won't feel this way forever. And that my family will be there when I come out of it. Right. One of the things that really saved me with my mental illness is I knew no matter how painful it was to deal with my my mental illness. Right. Knew my family was there for me. And so you're establishing that for them. You know what, Tom? I'm sorry. I got a little mad at you earlier. You can talk now. Did you

0:39:08 Thomas: It's not permanent. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. Yeah.

0:39:42 Eli: Have anything to say about that?

0:39:44 Thomas: So, it is related to this um we talk about uh pattern of you not punishing the good behavioral like it is it is one thing to not reward it is another to punish it And I also have this sense, the three of us are, we try to make people laugh for a living somewhat. Some of us more than me, least of all. But the three

0:40:03 Tom: I was feeling a little called out like all right yo I'm not good at it but I do give it a whirl you know yeah

0:40:09 Thomas: Of us, I think, have that internal clock. I in in this way. I have this fear, long term, I have have this sense that there could be a time there likely will, but I'm trying to prevent it. There will eventually be a Time right now for all three of my kids. And it's the luckiest thing in the world is the luckliest fucking thing. It is a feeling that I could never get anywhere else. And it makes it hard for me to imagine people not getting to have this right now. All three of my kids, if they see me, they're so happy. They're so excited. There's day.

0:40:38 Thomas: I know how I'm going to manage it when they're not anymore. But I know there's going to come a time, there might come a time where it's the opposite. Like they get to that age where, oh, fuck, dad's here, you know, or whatever. Like, yeah, yeah.

0:40:47 Eli: If you're lucky, it's oh, fuck, dad's here. Right,

0:40:51 Tom: What you got to do is just see them every other weekend at and then they never get tired of you yeah

0:40:53 Thomas: That's fair. But I mean it in specifically in relation to this conversation. I mean, in the following way, which is the nagging that like I had a feeling like, oh fuck, if my dad's hier, I got to fucking is there something I forgot to do? Is there some, you Know, it's just pressure. Like,

0:41:07 Eli: What am I in trouble for now?

0:41:09 Thomas: Exactly.

0:41:09 Eli: Right. I am.

0:41:09 Thomas: It's like, Oh, God, you can never. And I have this feeling almost like, like we're comedians with a feel of of the audience where I'm like, I need to be in the positive, you can't be a pushover. I can't do that, but like, as much as I have to try I gotta be the parent. I gotta, to I be on them for some things. Like if they're, if they'RE not doing some things, like I'm going to have to be on them if they 'Re not, you know, but But, like, I'm constantly I want to stay in that positive column, though. Like, even if I have to be that, you know, somewhat lay down the law parent, I still want them, even when they're older, to feel like, oh, that's my dad. That's the guy that I have fun with largely and is supportive. And even if it's, you Know, maybe that, You know, they're not going to like me sometimes. You know? That's just life. But, Like, I Still feel that way. And being that nag, being that person that not only is is nagging constantly, but is punishing good behavior in this way that we've talked about. It's just another way that that's going to just take that fucking

0:42:05 Thomas: Meter over to the red and they're just going to be like, oh, great. It's dad. Fuck.

0:42:04 Tom: Poisons

0:42:08 Eli: Yeah, when do you become that? Yeah, you become that dark force and we all have that family member, right? Who just enters the room and it becomes chilly. Yeah exactly.

0:42:14 Thomas: Mine was all of them.

0:42:17 Tom: The well oh

0:42:24 Eli: All right, gentlemen before we go, what do you call two monkeys who share an Amazon account primates?

0:42:33 Tom: God come on come on

0:42:33 Thomas: Somehow I didn't think of that one in time.

0:42:40 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads .com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILf, tom smith who also wrote and recorded the intro music which is used with his permission this podcast is a production of daddy issues llc copyright 2022 all rights reserved

0:43:22 Eli: She suffers at his hands on a regular basis.

0:43:24 Thomas: Really? Does he hit the dog?

0:43:25 Eli: No, she fucks him up. No coming up with me

0:43:33 Tom: Makes me crazy. That just a construct and will shit in my room and smear it on the walls no

0:43:37 Thomas: Who look here's Billy fucking go try to shut it's

0:43:44 Eli: Enough cops having it hard job hey