DOD175: What If Our Kids Don't Want Kids?

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad. That's my thing. I know now what I can offer you that no one else can. Complete and utter dependence. I'm a man. I'm sensitive. I need to feel loved. I need to be desired.

0:00:22 Clip: Telling is the only part of being a father that I enjoy.

0:00:28 Eli: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that gets down to the nitty and the gritty. I'm Eli Bosnick, and I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith. Welcome, Thomas. Our co -host Tom Curry is still unable to join us. We record these bad boys two at a time, and his wife Haeley is still feeling sick, so send them some love if you're out there in TV land listening to it. But we have an amazing replacement, my friends. The one, the only, Lydia Smith. Lydia, thank you so much for joining us.

0:00:57 Lydia: You. The gritty to Thomas's nitty, I guess.

0:01:01 Eli: In that you are a large orange beast with a really dominant sexual energy that a lot of people identify with.

0:01:07 Lydia: Honestly, hey, that's not wrong.

0:01:08 Thomas: This is not okay all right it's taking on a new persona everybody just seeing if it works it's like when you move to a new school and you just decide to be a different person that's lydia is just doing a new whole new bit I don't I'm I'll go with it Can you finally get the, what, the undercut thing that's the best that Eli said he hates?

0:01:18 Eli: Getting pegged for Christmas. Thomas That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:01:33 Lydia: Eli hates? Yeah, I don't know.

0:01:35 Thomas: God, it's the Best. It's the BEST. How

0:01:35 Eli: Well, as then as you'RE editing the episodes, do you also have to be emailing me your complaints? That's my question. Or do you get to finish the edit first?

0:01:42 Thomas: Dare you?

0:01:43 Lydia: That's interesting.

0:01:43 Thomas: She's going to reclaim the haircut. Well, she doesn't need to reclaim shit. You're just wrong, Eli.

0:01:45 Lydia: I'll make notes.

0:01:50 Thomas: The only thing worse than Tom's laziness and continuing to not earn his rest is the Adavads.

0:01:51 Eli: Thing worse, laziness. Yes. Continued laziness, yes, is the auto ads. Yes, the auto adds. I'm sure we've been talking for one minute and 46 seconds, so you've probably heard, I would say, seven or ten of them by now.

0:02:06 Thomas: Here's the bad thing, Eli, on OA, everyone keeps saying they keep getting ads for Pete, is it Pete Hegseth? Seth? Pete Hegseth's book. It's the best. They're like, I keep getting an ad for Pete Hegsheth's book. I, know, we haven't done this rant in a while. So just for a moment, Eli, please add anything onto this. You can, I of complaining about the worst people in the world, giving us money for ads that aren't going to work. Why don't you just realize that's the Best Situation? People are like, Like, I can't believe I heard an ad for Pete Hegs' book. You to know, and you ought to turn it on. No, that's the best place for an ad for Pete Hags' book!

0:02:11 Lydia: Hegseth, yeah.

0:02:14 Eli: Amazing.

0:02:42 Lydia: Yeah.

0:02:42 Thomas: Why would you, oh, you're right.

0:02:42 Eli: Where there's no danger of

0:02:44 Thomas: Let's let him know that he needs to save his money for the better ad placement on a place where people would like his ads. Let's tell him, let's help him out. Let's help them out with his ad campaign. Hey, this ad spend that you did, it wasn't good. Let's hope you, by saying, don't put it on here. By the way, we don't have control over it. If we did, we probably would have gotten rid of it. But first and foremost, we have no control over it. But it's the best situation.

0:02:44 Eli: Anyone listening to PETA. We don't have control. Actually important to add to that conversation is that we set our ads as, like, no racists, no, you know, ass grass or ass or whatever it is. Ass grass or pass. Nobody rides for free.

0:03:16 Thomas: We don't even have that control, actually. We only have no, like, guns and no, like, something else.

0:03:22 Eli: We, we have that kind of like no racist ad setting.

0:03:25 Eli: So what, what has to happen in order for someone's ads to reach you is they have to lie about what their product is, right? They say like it's an educational product or something.

0:03:37 Thomas: You do. But it is the best. It is the situation. They fund the good guys for running ads that will not ever work in a million. Let me ask you, did you go buy Pete Hex's book? Book well work on you no it's the best yeah

0:03:50 Eli: But, but there is one way to fund the good guys where you don't have to listen for ads to be said. That's heading over to patreon .com forward slash dear old dads, where for as little as a dollar, you get a commercial free extended version version of every single show behind the scenes bonus extras so those of you who listen to gam you're already aware our very own heath and right does not like muppets christmas carol so we enlisted thomas smith we enlisted his fiancee ann to try to change his mind I'm not going to tell you how it goes podcast listener but you can find out over at patreon .com forward slash dear old dads Lydia yeah

0:03:54 Thomas: You don't have to hear anything three

0:04:12 Lydia: Unbelievable. Unbelievable.

0:04:13 Thomas: Ghosts yeah tune in

0:04:27 Lydia: Into it. Rip into it, rip into it

0:04:31 Eli: Holiday themed rip into it hell yeah brilliant couldn't ask for any

0:04:36 Thomas: We should do you could do the harmony you could have jumped in with the harmony hun we're on the same time we're not lagged okay it's all right we'll work on it everybody oh

0:04:44 Eli: The beginning in the end so what brings us here today Thomas and

0:04:50 Thomas: Yeah so this was one that is particularly um that I wanted wanted to talk about there's a New York Times article um between some of the like enabling fascism ones and the transphobia and all this shit yeah just the worst dog shit

0:04:59 Lydia: Sane washing. And yeah. Yeah.

0:05:00 Eli: Then getting together to make a sad little video about how sad they are that Trump won god can they suck a hun

0:05:05 Thomas: Oh yeah the two of them I didn't watch that I

0:05:07 Lydia: I didn't watch that either.

0:05:08 Thomas: We gotta watch that

0:05:09 Eli: Guys you gotta watch it they all get there with their little ring lights and the guy who literally the week before had written a a pro -life op -ed for the times and they're all like this is not who we are as a nation and I'm like it's the nation you oh my god you have to watch it it's it is the perfect example of why we lost right it's just a bunch of people being like I have no idea how the thing I've very explicitly been doing with my job made the thing that's very explicitly my job and him I

0:05:34 Lydia: That's insane.

0:05:19 Thomas: Way no way you gotta be oh okay yeah wow I was gonna joke that like I'm in a weird dumb sub like I pay the New York times money to hurt me now. Like I just, I just am like, okay, I still, you need to read it from from time to time. And it's all behind a paywall. So I'll still subscribe, but like, I know I'm getting there, man. I'm Getting there.

0:05:45 Eli: Don't why why be educated about anything you're standing in the gas chambers next to me you know this is actually zyklon b 2 .0 I don't know it uses hydrogen pressure

0:06:00 Thomas: The model, they sourced this from, yeah, you're like, no, the supply chain is actually problematic. Automatic. Yeah. So the article was The Unspoken Grief of Never Becoming a Grandparent. And I wanted to talk about this. And I also thought it would be a good one to have Lydia come on because I feel like we're both going to have we're going to Have Thoughts.

0:06:20 Thomas: But it is true that like, I don't know about you, Eli, we know you have your your very explicitly sexual dad friends that you sleep with and cuddle with that I for some reason I haven't been invited too, but like, uh, you know, like I would go, but I

0:06:30 Eli: I know do you want to do you wanna come to pax east in boston because that's where we're there was absolutely some kind of yeah

0:06:34 Thomas: Would, yeah. I mean, I w is, is there cuddling? Cause, but, uh none of our friends have kids and we're, we're in a weird world where it feels to us like we're the only people who had kids. And Like it's weird. Um, it''s a little isolating. Um but obviously while it just doesn't need to be said, but obviously everyone's choice about what they want to do with their own fucking life completely valid. This is not about this at all. It's not about any sort of thing like that. And also, I blame people. The economy fucking sucks. No one can buy a house. No, like I totally get it. But it feels to us like we're the only ones who had kids. And then I saw this article and I was thinking like, oh, wow. Yeah, it's one of those things where I'm sure there's the shitty version of this, the shitty boomer version of This where they're mad that their kid isn't having kids and they're not going to be a grandparent and they shitty about it. But there's also, I think, a bit of a sad version of it where I it were me, I do very much think like if if our kids, if all three of our kids decide they're not having children, I will genuinely be heartbroken about that. Like,

0:06:42 Lydia: Stuck

0:07:35 Eli: Who

0:07:35 Thomas: I know that I will be an old dude. I'll be ready to have all like the stuff saved. Yeah, exactly. I always know I'll Be ready to Have all the stuff.

0:07:39 Lydia: With just me. Yeah

0:07:43 Eli: Doesn't even harmonize on the christmas this song god damn it kids your mother's an unbearable whore also she decided she was a top this week what the fuck am I supposed to do with that none of these restraints fit me yeah

0:07:59 Thomas: Yeah so uh I would be sad because it's like you I really love really love being around small kids and and just and that experience of watching them grow up and all the little stuff all the cute stuff and I have to admit that one we're doing about that is we'll just keep having more kids just announcing fourth kid but eventually we will be dry old husks of things that can't create yeah it's uh no we're done having kids but like um one of the one of things yeah lydia actually said she's done so it's it's a yeah I'll see if I can get anyone else pregnant but

0:08:19 Eli: I was gonna say you guys yeah

0:08:23 Lydia: Eventually my uterus will say no. Yeah No, we're done. I'm done Yeah,

0:08:29 Eli: So you say I will see we'll see I'll believe it when a knife is at thomas's balls like the opening scene of pirates of penzance except

0:08:44 Thomas: But so but would be very sad. We have all we'll have like, you know, we'll be ready with. I know Lydia and I are gearing up to be grandparents already practically because I can't wait. It's going to be so sad to mourn the loss of our tiny children when they turn into, of course, children we still very much love and have relationships with, but a different relationship. Like every every day, honestly, it's really it's a different kind of mourning for kids we no longer have, you know, like, yeah.

0:09:09 Lydia: Mean like Phoebe calling his bruh lately? Like, it's

0:09:12 Thomas: And it's and it's

0:09:13 Lydia: Kind of different

0:09:13 Eli: For remy who you guys are are pretty excited to be rid of you guys

0:09:13 Lydia: Than when she was a baby. Yeah.

0:09:16 Thomas: We're mourning that we have Remy.

0:09:18 Eli: Keep putting like leaflets for apartments and like separate living situation a divorce your parents question mark like a bunch of gary coleman biographies you've stuck into his room yeah look

0:09:29 Lydia: Gary Coleman. Yeah.

0:09:27 Thomas: Talk about gritty. Remy's got the gritty energy, actually. That's where he gets it. He gets it from his mother.

0:09:35 Lydia: How dare you?

0:09:37 Thomas: Hey, who's the one who claimed that persona?

0:09:39 Lydia: Yeah.

0:09:39 Thomas: Wasn't me. Me. But yeah, it would be very sad for us. It would be that would be one of those things where and of course, it wouldn't be something that like we would do our best to never put that on our kids at all because everyone's decisions about their own lives is their own decision. But that would be genuinely be heartbreaking for me. And so when I saw this article, I instantly was like, oh, that would Be hard. And it's an interesting thing to process where it's not not really a grief that you really are be allowed to like put on anyone else. You know, I feel like it would be shitty or inappropriate to talk to your kids about that. Like, hey, I'm really sad that you didn't have kids. But at the same time, it would be really heartbreaking. So I wanted to talk about it.

0:10:19 Eli: And also one like of the experiences that I think there are a lot of people who would like to have kids if they lived in a a world where they felt like they could financially support them or they were going to get the healthcare they needed. I mean, one of the posts that came out, so uh, I'm not, I obviously don't check the Facebook group, but one of things that came up that I thought was really interesting way, way back when we had the episode about bad genes, right. We heard from a lot of people who were like, yeah, I totally get it. I have bad genes and I would love to have kids if I knew they would be supported. But like as a person who has a disability or might be passing along an illness, I don't want them to be exposed to the same environment. So I think a lot of the time families share that grief. Right. Which is that like everyone, if the time and tides were right, would have imagined this working out as a scenario. But now it hasn't happened. Right? Right. And for a lot of younger people, for a lot of people of our generation, but especially the younger generation, they're just sort of resigned to that fate. Right. It's not like about how sad they are about it. It'S just like, well, this is

0:10:48 Lydia: Want to risk that.

0:11:17 Eli: The world that I live in. It' s the world I grew up in. Right.

0:11:18 Thomas: It's like just kind of, yeah. Matter of fact, at that point.

0:11:21 Eli: You I forget who was saying this, but someone was talking on a podcast the other day about the idea that like one of the ways of explaining Gen Z and sort of the younger generation is like they've never lived in a world without the realities of climate change. Right we really have

0:11:36 Thomas: We got to experience the 90s the post -history you know that false feeling in the 90's and and again that's a very privileged corner of you know society but like that false feelings in the nineties that like well we've solved everything we're good it's great so they they never even experienced that they've only experienced the like nope shit sucks everywhere post 9 -11 is like their entire lives one

0:11:53 Lydia: Tumultuous. Yeah spoke I about this on the bonus episode when all the wives came on for for this show but I've always wanted to be a grandma like ever

0:12:08 Thomas: Of the first things she said to me date one she's like I really want to be a grandma

0:12:09 Lydia: Ever since I was a kid I've just wanted to Be A Grandma um so like having kids is like you know trying to get to become a grandparent I

0:12:15 Eli: Yeah so fucking so fucking

0:12:15 Thomas: She whispered in my ear, she whispered, make me, make me a grandma. It's a very long term.

0:12:19 Lydia: Just I I

0:12:17 Eli: Hot right now yeah announcing all of the smith's kinks on this episode everybody you're welcome thanks for coming

0:12:23 Lydia: I just like I get so excited thinking about being a grand parent and having that kind of relationship I had um pretty good relationships with all of my My grandparents spent a lot of time with them, you know, like like quite a bit of time. We lived pretty close and, you Know, holidays like we would drive over for Halloween sometimes and trick -or -treat like specifically at their houses just to, you Know, kind of get some more of that grandparent time. I would spend the night there and have sleepovers but I, you Know, I love the Golden Girls and that's probably also part of it too is like that culture pushing on me about like that's what my life could look like as well. Just be, you know Blanche but the how I'm managing this because obviously like my parents did not pressure me at all with regard to marriage to kids anything like that like it that was always my choice about what my life was going to look like I think they really enjoy being grandparents but it was never if they had an expectation for that it was ever something that they communicated to me or like even when I was pregnant like it

0:13:22 Lydia: Wasn't like it was kind of like like a weird, weird reaction a little bit, but yeah.

0:13:24 Thomas: That's a good point. And then in my family being a middle to younger child, it was like, oh, you're also having kids. Oh, okay. You're, you too have kids. It's like, you know, especially because of our, no, no. It's more like, Oh yeah. Oh, Okay. Yeah. You also do. It's an afterthought. They had so many grandchildren already my mom did that it was like oh yeah cool no my mom's very good about it but it wasn't it was never in

0:13:35 Eli: Someone's finally getting around to breeding was your mom mom doing her best thomas she did the best with what she had right

0:13:51 Thomas: She just it was it was my mom always been very good you that stuff but like there wouldn't have been pressure on me because they're already it would be old news the the grandchildren at that point it's a classic middle child kind of thing steal

0:14:00 Lydia: It's But I think the way that I would handle this, maybe, I obviously would be very, very, very, sad. We talk a lot about chosen family. And I think that there is an opportunity for people as they're getting older to be like a grandparent figure.

0:14:21 Thomas: Someone else's kid no okay I choose this

0:14:24 Eli: Get

0:14:26 Lydia: Well, I just think about like, you know, growing up doing theater and sometimes we would have productions where it would be, you know from ages like nine to no limit and then you would have like this opportunity to like bond with people who were, you know like like way older.

0:14:39 Eli: Hit on by a 55 year old I

0:14:41 Lydia: No, it would be very sweet sometimes I mean it would be like the holiday show so

0:14:42 Thomas: The actual yeah the good version of it yeah no I hear you no that's really that is really sweet

0:14:46 Lydia: And so I think like that that's something that I think that's Something that I would probably seek to do then is like just really lean way more into opportunities like that um I don't know that I necessarily care if it's a biological grandchild or anything like that I think I care about that. I think I just really enjoy kids and being there for kids and like doing thoughtful things for them and helping to celebrate milestones and things like that. And I think you can kind of create that for yourself.

0:14:48 Eli: Thought it was pretty sweet so

0:15:17 Thomas: Another facet of this that we should talk about actually I would before that um how do you feel how did this strike you did this do how would you feel regarding max's decisions along these lines

0:15:27 Eli: There's a thing I mean look I want him to do whatever he wants to do um you know as I have said wildly unpopularly on this show before like having kids changed my experience of love right the way that I think about love and the metrics And so one of the things that I think a lot of the time, though I don't say to Max yet, but like when he is old enough to have a conversation about how much I love him. Right. Of the thing that I will say to him is you will understand how much I love you when you have your own kids. There's a meme or a post that I read from somewhere of a grandfather. And I think this is really apropos to our conversation whose daughter had just had a kid and she turned to him and said, oh, my God. She was like saying, I love the baby so much. I've never loved anyone so much my whole life. And then she turns to her dad and says, Dad, do you love me this much? And I, I think you can't.

0:16:25 Eli: And I don't know. And I I think in many cases you can't really understand. I did not understand understand what it felt like until um actually had kids so the the extent that I would be mourning it would be uh max max might find as we have heard from many of our listeners max might find those benefits elsewhere he might find that those feelings elsewhere but for me certainly if max had an experience that was similar to mine he would not get to experience love the way I have have gotten to experience love and that would make me feel very very sad yes

0:16:23 Thomas: He's like yeah yeah that was the component I was going to bring up next I'm glad I let you go first but there is a component where and and this is probably more true for the older generation regarding us like the the article is kind of more from that perspective currently you know like the boomer and older gen x parents who are are like not getting to be grandparents um

0:17:15 Lydia: One of whom named Lydia, by the way, the first woman they talked to.

0:17:18 Thomas: Is it a sign well

0:17:20 Lydia: I don' t know.

0:17:20 Thomas: I don't know but there there's another component of it which is like wait some of the choices some of the people are making the choice some of the younger people are saying either ethically or because of like whatever that like hey I don t want I actively don t wanna have kids and it would be especially imagine imagine Imagine if you have kids and then you're kid is like, yeah, I don't really want to pass this on, you know, like that would be very interesting, too.

0:17:44 Eli: Because it feels like a condemnation of the world you've given them right and in a lot of situations and look the truth of the matter is right that article is reflecting the experience of people who are alive today and I think there are a lotof boomers and people of the older generation who do feel like they failed the younger generation right like I know the stereotype is the parent who's like like, you know, super unaware and doesn't care about anything.

0:17:52 Lydia: Interesting.

0:18:11 Eli: But I know a ton of liberal older people who are wildly disappointed with the rightward turn that their generation has made that feel really powerless to stop it. And honestly, after this past election, like, I fucking get it, you

0:18:26 Thomas: We're Yeah, we I've already seen that before where they're like, God, fucking millennials didn't protect us from Trump. And I'm like, what? What the fuck? What? But, you know, like, yeah, it will be our generation that sort of, quote unquote, did this. But like, that's not us at all. You know, so I totally take your point.

0:18:41 Eli: Yeah. Sad. So, It's really sad. I don't know. I don'T know how to break the cycle. You know I don't really know what the solution is I

0:18:48 Thomas: But let's imagine, Eli, if maybe not taking that example, but like going off of what you said, where our children's whole lives and I'm going to try not to make I, you know, Lydia and I both are pretty careful, I think, with our language around the kids. We're like, yes, if you decide to have kids, we don't we don'T do the like, well, when you're a mom to Phoebe. Know like we don't do that even though she already does that on her own like she already wants to be like 10

0:19:13 Lydia: Told me she wanted 10 and kids yeah

0:19:14 Thomas: Kids is what she said yeah I

0:19:16 Lydia: Trad

0:19:16 Eli: Mommy's little broodmare like I think that's a weird

0:19:18 Thomas: Don't I like we I actually don't you know like I don t want that you know I want her to have a full life outside her worth is not merely like the in the inthe sense of the christian homemaker bullshit where all her worth is defined by, you know, like I don't want that for, yeah, trad wife pulls.

0:19:32 Eli: I yeah I know a thing that a

0:19:35 Thomas: That's what I was going for. Yeah.

0:19:33 Lydia: Wife yeah

0:19:35 Eli: Thing that you say on a pretty regular basis is I don'T WANT REMY TO HAPPEN TO YOU um I know that that's um that's something you say a lot

0:19:43 Thomas: Boy, I wouldn't wish Remy on my worst enemy, yeah.

0:19:46 Eli: Say god forbid there be another remy I wish I'd killed him in the womb um I think it's weird you lead the whole family in a chant that says that uh at the end of the night every night before the kids go to bed constant

0:19:55 Thomas: Remy is, he's, he's doing better. He is doing better, we're getting there. God damn, it's hard, but he's making progress. It requires constant, constant fucking work from us, just, it does. It's like like every single interaction with Remy has to be a knockdown drag out argument where you have, it's like pick everyone pick in their mind, the worst online argument they ever had, where they went back and forth with someone for like four years on well thought out points. And that person still was a piece of shit. You know, it's, like, that, but every 30 seconds with the dumbest shit ever all the time.

0:20:08 Eli: Vigilance and

0:20:09 Lydia: Really does yeah

0:20:32 Eli: It's about the graham cracker you're holding I

0:20:34 Thomas: And instead of whatever words, it just screams on the other side. And then you're like, oh, OK, we got to do it. It's so much mental energy and time that we don't have.

0:20:43 Eli: Mean it sounds like my online arguments I don't know yeah well

0:20:45 Lydia: Interesting

0:20:46 Thomas: It's just screams. Anyway, no, he is. We're making progress. But it's like, God damn, it'S a lot of work. Imagine, you go through our lives with our kids and we talk about from time to time. Again, we are don'T present it as though this is a thing you have to do. We DON'T present IT that way. I don'T think I'm, you fair KNOW, to to speak for both of us there. I'm like, we don't ever present it that way, but I will obviously speak honestly about my experience of having kids to my kids. And I'll be like, yeah, this is the best thing that ever happened. Like this has changed my life. You know, like this will speak that way to mykids about my having had kids. And so if they do the thing where, you know, one day they're like, well, I'm not fucking doing that. You Know, it, it would feel like a major rejection, you Know, to feel like a rejection of not only like I am, but like the a lot of things like that whole, you know? And so I understand that feeling. It's really, it's, it would be really tough. And I think that like, I just want to, I guess, express that if anyone else has felt that way, I think it's okay to feel that way. I think It is another question of how you handle it. You know, obviously putting that pressure on your kids is not okay. I Think they need to make their their own decisions obviously it's their lives but like I think it's okay to feel that way personally

0:21:58 Eli: And I also think that often the like personal conversation here that happens between families that get along

0:22:04 Thomas: Right

0:22:04 Eli: Well right the families that love each other often gets confused for the dysfunction between the two generations right so that sort of like the boomers when they're condemning the other side of this argument condemn an ungrateful generation of young people not their kids and young people generate condemning a generation of older people who they feel left them a world on fire right and we're not having the conversations that are hard which which is like, cause like, I fucking love my mom. And I know my mom tried to do the right thing in this world, right? Like she voted all the right ways. She was political in all the Right way. She made all the decisions and guess the fuck what she got out voted. Cause it's a democracy, right? So like my mom is trying to live her best life. She wants nice things for me. And some of those nice things, like I don't get to have, and we've had to have those conversations, right.

0:22:46 Thomas: Sort of yeah like

0:22:57 Eli: Like a climate, but like, Oh, I'll give you a really good example. Right. So I was like middle middle -class growing up, which meant we got to go on summer vacation every year, right? We would go to Cape Cod as a family because we were doing like, okay, my dad owned a business and we got to go to Cape God. And I know that's its own level of privilege, but comparatively I do, right, middle - class to middle - Class about as well as my parents did when they were raising me. And we can't afford those things for Max, right. We don't get to go On a vacation every a year and the amount of work that I have to do the amount of time I have the expectations

0:22:56 Thomas: A climate yeah oh

0:23:31 Eli: I can have of my employer which is fucking me is vastly different than of work were when my dad was young and so like a lot of the time like one of the conflicts and I think this is is useful right it's not just a side topic right one ofthe conversations that has come up is my mom's been like I need you to take more time off like I see you're under a lot lot of stress and I'm like this is what work is now right is just what is expected from people let alone people who run their own company right and look I don't want any way look do not play your tiny violin for me I know how many people have absolutely worse jobs than me and I am lucky in eight bajillion ways but I am part of a work culture that doesn't really build in you know vacations and you know luckily thanks to patreon's terrible business planning we're about to have paid no matter what starting in November of next year. But like up until now, when we didn't create product, we didn'T get paid.

0:24:28 Eli: Right. And so like, we have to keep the work schedules we keep. Right? And so what our conversations internally to part the curtain have always been, and I'm interested if this has been the conversation for you guys as well, has been like, okay, great. How much of our income do we give up this year so that we're not on for this week, that week or the other week right this is the first year

0:24:47 Thomas: No we're just like well no room to do that so we work every minute of our lives yeah

0:24:49 Lydia: Even when we're on vacation pack all the recording stuff and Yeah. Yeah.

0:24:55 Eli: Course yeah I mean thomas you're editing when we do matron which we love I mean we adore that you guys come to matron we never don't want you to come but like you you gotta do your jobs while you're here right like the jobs happen while you're hier um it's a very sad thing and like think I that is a similar conversation to bring it back to our topic of the day I think it's a very similar conversation because mom doesn't really have a metric for that, right? Has been her own boss. She has done work for herself, but there were breaks built into societal expectations for her that are not built into the societal expectations for me. And I think that's part of the reason why people are choosing not to continue their families is they're saying, I think when you look, you know, and, and you know what I'm person as well like a lot of my previous generation my ancestors it was about like let's get somewhere where things can be better right

0:24:58 Thomas: I were yeah yeah let's own

0:25:49 Eli: Right let's own the media and let's kill it let's commit a bunch of war crimes like let's do it uh let's Kill a Bunch of Kids

0:25:49 Thomas: The media and let's yeah yeah but they got vacation when they did that

0:25:58 Eli: But they got vacation while they do it they got vacant vacation days per innocent child they committed a war crime I guess but but like seriously a lot of it was about like how do we make things better for the next generation the truth of the matter is like look I know I have it better than fucking gershon who ate straw because his parents didn't pay for him to have food on the way over on the boat like I fucking I know that but I don't know that my mom necessarily looks at me and says he has a better life than I did I don'T KNOW THAT MY MOM NECESSARILY FEELS LIKE I I am more set up for success, happier, you my kid in the same educational environment with the same neighbors and the same friends. And keep in mind that I am a person of tremendous privilege, right? With all the tremendous, tremendous good luck and privilege I've had, I don't know that if my mom were being honest, she would say, yeah, he's got it better than I do.

0:26:52 Lydia: Do you think? Know, because right now, Max is the only grandchild for your mom do you think your mom would have reacted if you and Anna didn't have Max if you didn't have a kid

0:27:03 Eli: Yeah. And mean there was never a ton of pressure to have kids. Cause I was always, um, for, uh, of post high school, I was Always pretty psyched to have Kids as a little kid. Um, then post high school, as I got into veganism and atheism, I Was a pretty strong antinatalist. Um. Then I read some anti yeah.

0:27:21 Thomas: Then your mom is going to be bullshit and it would pass when

0:27:23 Eli: As much as that is like a stereotype, my mom was like, okay, well, you know, that's how you feel right now. Me and your dad will love you no matter what. And so then I changed my mind on those things and she was like, Oh, lucky me.

0:27:34 Thomas: You know it. Yeah.

0:27:34 Eli: Yeah. You changed your mind. So yeah, it was never a thing. I don't know. I think she would have been pretty sad. Um, it's hard. You know, my mom's expectations for me have always been about the funny, right. It's always been about making art. Um. And that's always come first for me and my mom. Certainly. It's always been like, well, you got an obligation to your talent and whatever else you, you do or do not do. Sort of a bonus of

0:27:35 Lydia: Interesting I mean these are the only grandkids that my parents will have my sister is not going to have children child free by choice and while like we didn't experience pressure to start our family or have kids or you know add more kids or anything like that I think that my mom seeing like how happy she is spending time with the kids and how often she thinks about them and like how much she wants to dote on them I think she would have been really sad if she didn't have grandkids. Yeah. I'm like trying to imagine what that future would have looked like for her under that kind of scenario. I don't know.

0:28:26 Eli: Course sure guess my question for you guys is like to what extent do you think the older generation owes it to us to take responsibility for these choices that our younger people made because like I a lot of the time and tell me if you disagree because I think a Lot of people make these choices like from a place of of and independence and happiness and I love that for them right I'm not here to judge anybody's life choices but I think I think I think a lot of people make these choices from a place of sadness. I think a lot people make them because they feel like they have no other choice because they've been left a bad world. And I think to speak to what Thomas was talking about before, I think what I would feel if Max says, hey, this is not a world I want to bring more people into, I would feel guilt about that, right?

0:29:16 Eli: I would feel a tremendous amount of guilt. I would feel a tremendous amount of responsibility for the fact that my kid didn't feel they wanted more people in the world, that I made them a worse world to be in right

0:29:26 Thomas: I don't I don't feel guilt for having any part of it because, you know, I've done. Yeah it's like there's I NO action I could have taken to change that like literally not there's nothing I could have done exactly.

0:29:30 Lydia: Like personal responsibility. Yeah yeah

0:29:34 Eli: Well more importantly we took all the actions we could to right

0:29:38 Thomas: Well, that's what I mean. There's action that I morally needed to take because it's the right thing to do but it's in have the system we have and it's It's a group action problem and we can't do any more than our part. And there's no, there's as long as I did what I could is what, what I was saying. Like, there was no one action I could have taken that could have like affected that differently. Um, that, so I don't feel guilt in that sense. I don't feel guilt in any sort of blame sense. There is, when I find out certain things about the world, like I actively have a hard time with that um because I know she's sensitive in the way that I am I think um Arlo doesn't give a shit he's fine yeah

0:30:09 Eli: Of course

0:30:14 Lydia: I was gonna say except for animals though like apparently they don't really care that much about animals.

0:30:16 Eli: Sorry

0:30:16 Thomas: I think I think that's, that'll hit Phoebe eventually I think she's not quite there I just know she has that sensitivity and maybe not maybe it's

0:30:26 Eli: Wait wait I need some explanation because that makes it sound like she tortures squirrels in the backyards and it's been a real problem for you guys

0:30:30 Lydia: They they eat meat. They just eat meat and they're They're like, they know it comes from animals and they're happy to eat meat. Like, animals are delicious.

0:30:37 Thomas: They're like they're the boomers roasting us for being vegetarians

0:30:40 Lydia: Yeah, pretty much.

0:30:41 Eli: Not they're like oh I love piggies yeah

0:30:43 Lydia: Pretty Much.

0:30:43 Thomas: And we're like we didn't even bring it up I didn't bring it out let's see yeah come on no not really but

0:30:46 Eli: Children are capable of cognitive of dissonance as well the

0:30:52 Thomas: Don't think she's connected all that yet I don't know but like that is a part of me that where I have a feeling of like, just, not we'll deal in the hypothetical. Her, perfect, pure, amazing being to me, which is Phoebe, this, this the most like just special form of life in my, uh, in my in my outlook right now, like thinking about her experience, about the awfulness of the world in a way I have this instant thought of like, not only is that horrible and it sucks, but also this thought of guilt, like, oh, one day she's going to realize that I brought her into this. And it's not a rational thought because, because really that's not how people work. Like I never think, ah, how dare my parents bring me into like, I've never in a million years have that thought.

0:31:04 Eli: Anti -remi if you will of course and and you should

0:31:35 Thomas: And I should absolutely. Because like, that's just not how People work. People, you know, we, we kind of take ourselves ourselves for granted like we're the center of our own universes and experiences in a way and not even not in a selfish way like just our perspective is shaped around us so she will she will see things like the awful the genocides the people starving to death the horrible shit that that badly affects me you know like it's it's really hard to know that that exists in our world especially when you're trying to make a world a for your perfect pure child like Like it's, it's becomes more painful to see how awful it is for other people's children around the world. She will take that on as, as her own way, you she will take that as, in the same way you or I have as won't sit, think, how dare my parents have brought me into this, you Know, but

0:31:53 Eli: Of course right yeah

0:32:22 Thomas: That's what it feels like to me. It feels like shit. I knew it. I had, I had mens rea. I had like I knew this about the world I knew. And and to say nothing of like, yeah, climate change and like what the future is going to be like that. Like, yeah. I knew about these things and I did it anyway. And it's it is a guilty feeling in a way, but it should never be anyone's reason for not having kids, because at least for me. Well, I can't take. Sorry, I won't speak for anyone else. For me, we've talked about this like there was never going to Be any other option. And for me, the options are, well, either there's no point in being here at all or I'm going to do the things that make it worth it to be here at all, which is having kids.

0:33:02 Thomas: Yeah. And it is a selfish choice, but it's also like I the alternative is nothingness. So, OK, you know, like I'm not I'll take that one. You know what I mean? That's how I feel about it that there's no, there... the thing to do is to experience the world and being a human and try to make it better not to be afraid to do the most fundamental thing of being a human because other people have ruined the world no

0:33:12 Eli: For you yeah yeah yeah no

0:33:26 Lydia: Maybe this is, like. Foolish, but, man, don't feel like I have felt that kind of dread about bringing, like, or guilt about bringing the kids into the world. Like, I think that, like, are so many ways that life can be really, really, really beautiful. And I'm so happy that we get to experience it with them together and that they get to experienced the beauty of life. And I know that there are bad things. There are always bad things and some of those things are like really, really, really bad, but I don't know. I just don't, uh, maybe that's just my, um, foolishness or, you my, uh guess unintelligent happiness kind of coming through.

0:33:58 Thomas: It's it's there's a lot of psychological reasons for it most people are more like you no

0:34:03 Eli: But and and lydia that actually brings me to a question that I have have for you as a woman right about the phoebe thing which is like as a woman experiencing a backslide in women's rights right now right like a once in a generation phenomenon I was actually looking this up the other day well I I was trying to find like if there was a time where women's right backslid uh the broadway musical girlies in the audience and boys and non-denominational ease uh in the audience And there's a on Broadway right now called Suffs, which is about the suffragette movement. And it's sort of I was looking it up the other day and it reminds Reminds me a lot of the moments of women's suffrage where, like, there was a backslide effect because people were pushing back against that change. But truly, like Thomas was just saying, it's pretty unprecedented that women's

0:34:16 Thomas: And never in a generation but I don't know that yeah Yeah. Mm -hmm.

0:34:51 Eli: Rights be peeled back this far or that any rights be pealed back this far as a woman. Like, how does it I mean, what a stupid thing. How does it feel to lose your way? You feel bad? God, fuck me. No, I mean, is like, how do you plan to talk to Phoebe about that? Because for Phoebe, who will have never had that bodily autonomy. Will be in a generation just escaping this conservative Supreme Court, possibly. Right today. We don't know

0:34:51 Lydia: A reversal. Yeah, mm -hmm. Yeah.

0:35:22 Eli: How old the people he's going to appoint to replace Kennedy and and the other guy are.

0:35:25 Lydia: We have we have no idea. Yeah yeah.

0:35:27 Eli: So like, right.

0:35:26 Thomas: Depends on the limits of medical science. We'll see how old people can live to.

0:35:29 Eli: And truly like now, but like, you know, Kavanaugh and them are still going to be well placed on the court when she is concerned about her bodily autonomy. How do you plan to have that conversation with her? And like, is that a conversation to be had? Right. I mean, I'm in sort of a very lucky position, which is that Max and I don't have fucking conversations. But like, how do you talk about that? Do you talk about it has it come up yet she

0:35:55 Lydia: We've talked a little bit about you know she doesn't, she doesn't totally know like where babies come from like that's not really a conversation that that we've had right now Now, we talk about.

0:36:03 Eli: Just sees thomas in the restraints and sees like oh friday again mommy rides daddy like a horse to breakfast every saturday and I don't I have no idea why he seems like a fine horse for me I she says he's bad she calls him bad all night long after we go to bed but I think he did a great job so that's the issue I take with her right

0:36:27 Lydia: But we. But we do have conversations about, you know, we have talked a little bit about politics.

0:36:31 Thomas: We did the election episode and talked about that. Yeah.

0:36:33 Lydia: We talked about Donald Trump

0:36:34 Thomas: She was so, she was, she was just so panicked.

0:36:34 Lydia: And like. Like, yeah. And

0:36:37 Thomas: Girl.

0:36:38 Lydia: I think what is also really remarkable about Phoebe and like something I think that we are trying to nurture is that she has this like, I know, like this determination in a lot of ways, too. And sometimes it's to her detriment where it like she pushes and pushes and pushes and it's something that she can't quite accomplish yet and she gets frustrated but I think that she has a drive in her that really want to foster because I think it's like those things to feel empowered especially as a woman in a situation where people are telling you that like you don't get to make choices about your own body I think that you Phoebe's not the most confident person in the world against that. But I think that she like she can really like take things apart a little bit and and she can get really fiery when she wants to. You honestly, just sharing from my my personal experience, you I have seen people my life impacted impacted. By not having access to abortion and And what they had to do to still get access to that. I've seen that within my family.

0:37:40 Eli: If I can clarify um you really wanted to abort remy but you couldn't because thomas was like it'll turn out fine yeah you

0:37:43 Thomas: Remy. Yeah. Religious. Yeah.

0:37:50 Lydia: Then, And you know, and then obviously like like Roe v. Wade and stuff, I haven't had any issues accessing abortion care or anything like that. So I think to perfectly frank, I think like kind of having that conversation with Phoebe at some point is probably going to happen. And there are people in our family that I can talk to her about, like what their experiences were. And I feel like she can she Can Be a Firecracker. And and feel Like that it might be something where she's like, well, that's not right. And how do we fix it? You know, like as she gets older? No, it's

0:38:20 Thomas: Well, well, Yeah. Sorry to chime in, but it's not going to be any discussion of anything other than here's how the world actually is in that you do have these rights. And if anyone tries to do anything to compromise that, they're a piece of shit who I will murder. So like it's Not.

0:38:37 Eli: See those two piles of dirt on the backyard bernie

0:38:41 Thomas: So it's NOT going to BE from the perspective of like, well, you don't have these. It's like, no, you do HAVE these rights! Yeah, I know. But like, it's important to say. I think it will. And furthermore, we are in California and we do have a certain amount of privilege. So she will have these rights. She will have These choices. She always will. I and if I lived anywhere else, I would drive her to where she does. I would find a smuggle her to Where she does, she will always have these things. And she will appropriately look at anyone who stands in the way of that as a piece of shit. That's a potential murder victim for her dad like that will be how it is. And I think that that energy will, like, to your point, I think that moral certainty will carry forward, I hope. And we'll see, you know.

0:39:25 Lydia: Think she's also like really been connecting lately with what well I took

0:39:30 Thomas: She said the Democrats have lost the working class the other day is what she said. I was like, cool, useful, very helpful.

0:39:37 Lydia: Her to see Wicked in theaters she's been like feeling really connected to musicals lately and really enjoying that no and I think that there... there are a lot of opportunities in art to of understand like how these things have changed over time I mean like you were saying Eli with Suffs but you know Spring Awakening is another example where you kind of like see what happens with abortion in 1800s Germany and you know some of the challenges there and so I think exposure to art and people telling those stories about what things look like when I think can also be really impactful and like I said she loved Wicked so anything we can do about like green people yeah

0:40:11 Eli: So she's already gay I don't know if you've heard from one million moms but she's actually already been turned by by wicked so

0:40:17 Lydia: Perfect perfect you

0:40:17 Thomas: We're taking bets, our only queer child is Remy. Just FYI. I will probably edit this out.

0:40:21 Lydia: Think so

0:40:24 Eli: Got straight man energy for sure you

0:40:26 Thomas: Not at all. So yesterday,

0:40:27 Lydia: Been wearing like beautiful princess gloves loves around the house yeah

0:40:29 Eli: Bisexual you think

0:40:31 Thomas: Phoebe and him have been Phoebe and he have been delightful. Phoebe's been making purses out of paper and he says my purse and he carries it around and does a little walk with it that I don't know where he picked up and also also wears princess gloves while doing it. And so I'm just saying, yeah, but it's in a different way. You know what I mean?

0:40:41 Lydia: You know but arlo did the same kind of stuff I have pictures of arlo dressed up in that anna that queen anna dress he's holding his hands in the perfect disney any princess pose. Don't know. See.

0:40:56 Thomas: He's it's if

0:40:59 Eli: Guy's are more like oppressing his sexuality than it's about the noise if you think about it interesting well I think we've all learned a lot today

0:41:07 Thomas: You would like to bet on which of our children has a queer identity, patreon .com slash dear old dads. Yeah.

0:41:11 Eli: Bet on our children's sexuality yeah get in there

0:41:17 Thomas: But it's funny because I mean this in a delightful way. Like right now, leader in the clubhouse for me, Remy can't wait to find out you know stupid

0:41:32 Eli: We go I have a pen that writes underwater it writes other words too you there

0:41:41 Lydia: I liked it. I'm here for the dinner party games. I am here for dad jokes, boomer jokes. I like them all.

0:41:50 Eli: You go hell yeah that's yeah and

0:41:50 Thomas: She's our biggest fan I say our Eli's biggest fan oh

0:41:59 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads .com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILf, tom smith who also wrote and recorded the intro music which is used with his permission this podcast is a production of daddy issues llc copyright 2022 all rights reserved

0:42:40 Eli: Getting pegged for Christmas.