"The Right Way" Part 2

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:00 Clip: You must never, ever give up or give in. You must keep the faith and keep your eyes on the prize. That is your calling. That is you mission. That is moral obligation. That is mandate. Get out there and do it. Get in the way. Change happens because people care. The people have the power to make this life free and beautiful. To make this live a wonderful adventure.

0:00:38 Clip: I still believe with all my heart, America can be a place where no child is left hungry, no community is left behind, and no one gets told they don't belong. Country is always worth it.

0:00:57 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Opening Arguments. This is episode 1092. your host, Thomas Smith, and we're going to get back to our interview with Abdi. Much more to come. Really fascinating. Truly one of the most enjoyable interviews we've ever done. After that, we're going to have the usual Thomas takes a bar exam answer to last week's question. Out if I finally break my horrible streak. Week. Then of course, a new question for folks to play along. So stick around for that. It's a lot of fun and the usual patron shout outs after that. So that's the plan. Don't we take a break and get to part two of the interview with Abdi. Was your plan? I mean you've imagine you've taken so long and so much effort to get there. Yeah like what I imagine there was a feeling of like okay what now you know like you've just accomplished something that you've been striving for for so long how did that feel yeah

0:01:38 Abdi: Had no plan. Yeah. Yeah. Know, didn't have any plan. It was just like, you know, creating the plan right at that moment. But one thing I wanted to do is what every other immigrant dreams about, which is support your family. I mean, my mom is in Somalia. My sister is also in somalia very near where my mom lives and my sister has five kids and you know being here and wiring them a couple hundred dollars a month you to them means a lot they're coming out of poverty they literally first of all as we are doing this podcast I haven't seen my mom for 15 years you know that's what that'swhatseparation literally means I I, you know, I left Somalia 2011. I mean, it's really a long time. First couple of years, it was so difficult. I really, I didn't, never thought that it's going to be more than a decade until I, you know. I can see my mom and I, I haven't. You do talk on the phone. At least once every two weeks. They don't have internet, but it's kind of pricey or expensive calling them. Them you think my mother is different feelings about america she can't understand what the hell I'm talking about sometimes you

0:02:13 Thomas: That's got to be really hard to you in that way like wasthat like yeah sure right

0:02:55 Abdi: Know when when I express frustration it's like mom well you know I'm fighting the president of the united states she thinks I'm kidding right um it's something that you can never say to your mom in somalia it's like, what are you talking about? Presidents always have the power, but hey, shut up. Sponsor for my mom. Obviously, I'm American citizen. I actually tried this out. But the problem is, again, going back to what America recognizes, Somali documents aren't recognized. And so my mother wouldn't have an easy path, even

0:03:26 Thomas: What what happened to them so when you left were were you all still still refugees in Kenya at that time?

0:03:31 Abdi: Never came to Kenya with me, so I'm the only one who, yep. Yeah, it was my brother and I. Sorry about that.

0:03:34 Thomas: I missed that. Gotcha. No, yeah.

0:03:37 Abdi: It brother, and I, who really made it out of Somalia, but my mother has never left, so, I'm no one who left.

0:03:44 Thomas: And what about your sister, though, that you said has five kids?

0:03:47 Abdi: She's never left either. They've always, yep

0:03:48 Thomas: They stayed. Okay, I got you. So they stayed and you left.

0:03:51 Abdi: They stayed and I left. My brother and I left and everybody else has stayed. Even my dad has his own wife and other family now somewhere else in Somalia.

0:03:53 Thomas: I see. Oh, Wow. Did you find that out? How that happen? It? Like Cause you said goodbye to your dad when you were five. Did you find out what, what had happened to him?

0:04:08 Abdi: Thought he was dead. You know, for five years, I thought I was an orphan. Right. Very common in Somalia to lose a parent or both. You very common, you have one of them because of the war. And while we thought our dad was dead, didn't make it and he showed up into the city someday and uh I didn't even know what to make out of my brother and I were like hmm what are we supposed to do now here's a dad you

0:04:33 Thomas: Sorry, in, Kenya in then.

0:04:34 Abdi: In somalia sorry yep in somali this is this is way earlier before I even moved um uh yeah yeah he popped popped up somewhere between 98 and 99. And then he us that he's found other family and was married to another wife, but he wasn't. Actually thought we didn't make it. So he came to the city to see if we were alive. And he found out we were all alive, except for the other sister we lost in anyways, and my mother hasn't really, she married and she was committed to raising us all. And she did and uh so there with my sister and my this is an update I know my brother's in Canada but my brother now is in Canada Toronto so he has his own life four kids um and I had an interesting get together during COVID um I went up to Niagara Falls on the Buffalo New York side and he came on the Toronto, Canada side while it was still brand new and the border was closed so we couldn't cross so we waved and

0:04:40 Thomas: I see where. Jeez. Yeah. Huh? Oh, well.

0:05:29 Abdi: An interesting reunion mostly because I wanted to see my brother even if it was that close and so yeah and then after that we've seen each other a few times

0:05:40 Thomas: Did he immigrate to Canada?

0:05:42 Abdi: Did, yep, he legally immigrated to Canada, has a Canadian citizenship now as of two years and his wife I'm a traditional Somali woman as well. And it's also naturalized Canadian. So, yeah, they're all set. My brother is voting in Canada. I'm voting in the U.S.

0:05:59 Thomas: Do you ever talk about your different processes of like, was his a lot easier? Was it similar?

0:06:04 Abdi: Was not really easier either. Least there was a little bit of transparency in the Canadian system that, you had to do three different interviews where I did one interview and then the U。S. Kicked me out. And then they said, check case online. That was what the Americans did. But it was different for my brother. And they said, come back, we'll make a decision. Right. And so they were able to handle him in person and approved his case while he was there and got the good news while he was still standing in that Canadian embassy. So his was entirely different. Right.

0:06:35 Matt: You ended up relocating to Maine after permanently that?

0:06:38 Abdi: Pretty well involved in the Maine community now. I'm an advocate, I'm a storyteller, I'm columnist, I've got all kinds of things. I don't know how many Americans know this, but Maine is one of the whitest in the country.

0:06:50 Thomas: Know.

0:06:50 Abdi: Very white.

0:06:50 Matt: Pretty famous. Yeah.

0:06:52 Abdi: Sometimes we are We argue with Vermont if they are the first or if we are the first.

0:06:56 Matt: It's very true. But there is also a thriving African community. Know just from my own work. You tell us about, because I don't think a lot of Americans know that there's a thriving African community in Maine. It is unusual.

0:07:07 Abdi: Know what's really interesting? Maine has brought together different African countries, something that you will never see in Kenya or in Somalia like the Congolese are really thriving in Maine, Portland, Maine. The Somali and Jebusian and Ethiopian and Eritreans are thriving in called Lewston, Maine, Maine. Yep, that place where the shooting took place last year, October. I think that's very famous for that. And Augusta, Maine, which is the capital city of Maine, has a thrive in Syria and Iraqi and other Arabic -speaking communities. And so, you know, Southern Maine has really become this, you think the number is probably 50 ,000, you have settled here. Remember reading somewhere 35 different languages spoken across the state now. But Maine, if you know the politics well, Maine is two districts. Go So up north, it's pretty redneck. Hard to see up there. And I all over Maine and sometimes it feels like it's entirely, completely different if go out of southern Maine. And southern Maine is really getting pretty which is really something that excites me a lot. But then, you of the state is still sort of not accepting as many refugees as places. And so we have a lot of work to do.

0:08:19 Matt: So you got to our attention. I mean, I remember your story, of course, Miss American Life, but you recently wrote a column on November 19th in the Forecaster in Maine, and it really captured what I've been thinking. And I really wanted to have you talk about it because it means a lot more, I think, coming from you. Was really happy to see this. We'll link to it, obviously. But you were talking about just sort of the feeling in the community right now and the resilience and the readiness to fight that you're feeling in these times. So I just want to talk a little about that. First of all, what's your read right now on the feelings in the community as Trump's coming in?

0:08:50 Abdi: My grade? Disappointed, honestly. You know, I mean, I'm immigrant, a naturalized U.S. citizen. I fought hard to get to this country. And we were just talking about that. Bothers me to see Americans not appreciating that. And it bothers me to see that that we're seen as invaders or people who aren't fully American. You know, I think I've tolerated enough. It just disappointed me to also see that we elected a president who doesn't respect any of those. Right. When the election happened, I my good friends who are native born Americans born in this country just had coffee and someone said, my family and I are considering moving to Canada, you know, And I jumped right in and I said, I'm not considering going anywhere, right? There was silence in that room. And I said this is the last place. I mean, I've lived in different places. And when I moved into the U .S., I thought this is it. This is where I need to build my life. I mean what the hell do you mean I'm going to get out of here? I'm no going to go anywhere. I'm buckling up. That's literally the title of my article, Buckle Up and Fight. Life. I that immigrant narrative out there is wrong. Think the dominant narrative is that immigration and immigrants are portrayed in a bad way, which really bothers me. And it's part of me trying to fight back, to recreate this narrative. Again, on this podcast earlier, we've been talking about how much I fell in love with American pop culture in Somalia, right? How much I have danced on the streets, moonwalked like Michael Jackson. You know, America is such a such a place that people love and appreciate and really want to build their lives. And if you take that joy away from them by running around and telling them that they're immigrants, you know, that, you should all be deported altogether. And I know I mentioned a couple of names in the article of Trump, Trump's current you said denaturalization is also on the table. It's like, seriously? You know what that means. I mean, naturalized Americans, that means they fought hard. They got here. They, you the civics of English test to become naturalized Americans. And what do you mean you're, you're going to take that away from them? And we like, are never becoming as equal as other Americans? Like, when will we ever get there? Mean I accept the fact that I was born out of the United States, So I can never run for American, U .S. president. And obviously, I have no interest in doing that ever. But I just want to be as equal as everybody else. I suffer a lot, but they also work hard. They work hard, they work a lot. They feed their family here and overseas. They contribute to this country. I've been paying taxes for the last 10 years plus. Why? Be accepted? It's basically the question I ask myself every day

0:11:30 Thomas: I'll never understand because I did absolutely nothing to become an American. I did just nothing. Just was born. I didn't have any hand in it. I don't remember it. Didn't make that decision. Didn't work for it. And yet somehow I'm I'm entitled to a bunch of stuff. That's what I don't understand is like that feeling of superiority people have merely for the accident of their birth. I don't, it's hard for me to take pride in something I had no part in, whereas your story involves so much just like danger and risk and thriving and ingenuity and waiting and just so so much of a journey that you went through that, you in Trump's circle except the I guess the wives he imports from time to time, you know, like they don't like nobody's gone through that. I don't understand why people could be dismissive of that. I don't get it.

0:12:12 Abdi: You know wish every american had at some point had a little test or glimpse of what it really means to get to the u .s as an immigrant I think they would they would appreciate the whole process that long ago, I was a speaker at one of the high schools here in Maine, you of the students actually asked me, like, like, do love it here? Right. Just as simple as that.

0:12:42 Abdi: And I, I didn't hesitate and I said, I actually do. But the things that I love is the that I have some freedom to speak up. I least I can write an article where I included the president and as an individual really standing up for my community and for the truth and for the narrative. And, you know, I know I couldn't do that in Kenya. I know it couldn't be done in Somalia. I know you couldn't put it in many places. So reminding the Americans themselves that, hey, don't think we're grumpy and angry. Love fighting here. It's an honor, it's a privilege that I have, which you had for so long time. But to me, it is like I earned it. It is not like I was born into it. I am someone who had lived in a place at one point where you can't even say anything against the president of that country that could get you in a huge trouble. Sometimes I that my own story, even though the Americans know it, like talking to them about how I feel, it's not that I'm really totally depressed. Depressed rather it's that I'm more motivated now that I have this opportunity and a supporting community and living in a country where I can actually um stand up uh myself and for my community um it totally opened their eyes up because they all they had known was just that you know oh yeah you know we're in america we can just do whatever you know whatever we want but like for them to understand that uh work hard to get here to this little bit of things that they have taken for granted um me really means a lot and it just so basically the answer of like yeah I love I love being here just because you know I feel like I can at least it's a it's the last place that I can really stand up and fight so fleeing the u .s and going somewhere else. No, I don't know what that will do.

0:14:38 Matt: I wanted to ask you when you're talking about fighting and you're writing about it here, there are a lot of people listening right now who want to know how they can help your community and the other communities around the country that are are feeling under threat right now so what would you say to them yeah

0:14:48 Abdi: One, I would really say, with your neighbors. It's something that I noticed since the election happened this in this country. A lot of families are depressed and there are, for example, the 50 ,000 plus members of the immigrant community in Maine. Some of them not following the American news, rather they follow their local news back home. You so checking on them, talking to them about where this is headed and that, you up the misconceptions. And I mean that, misconceptions. Like when Stephen Miller says we're going to denaturalize people and deport them, can he really do that? So check on them. Right, exactly.

0:15:27 Abdi: Exactly. So that that is exactly what we need, really.

0:15:27 Thomas: That's what our show is for. Yeah.

0:15:32 Abdi: I mean, we need lawyers and people who understand the system. No, you cannot deport, know, you naturalized citizens unless they have committed big crimes or something like that. But you just can't show up to their house and like denaturalize them.

0:15:43 Matt: It's the hardest thing the that immigration system can do actually by design as it should be right that should be the hardest thing that they can do to anybody uh in the immigration sistem but I wanted to ask though my impression and again I've been inside the system for about 18 years and you know I'm seeing so much fear right now and unfortunately, I'm seeing a lot of people that look like me that are causing a lot of this fear by talking about these things and talking about mass deportation and sort of putting all these sort of ideas out there and amplifying Trump's message. And it's a little frustrating to me because one thing we're going to be talking about a lot in this show going forward is realistically, like, what can this kind of enforcement action actually look like? But I've just been concerned about the sort of overall mental health effects on communities when you put these messages out there over and over again for the the people who are following the news. Have you seen that kind of fear? And through the first Trump term too, did you see that?

0:16:31 Abdi: Have. I'll tell you, the first term of Trump? I was not a naturalized citizen. I had a green card, permanent resident. President and I didn't know a lot about the uh the system yet but then donald trump got elected and I remember calling my boss at the construction job and I said I can't make it today you know and I was supposed to be there that day and he didn't understand you know he was a mainer you know didn't understan uh the for most for of the mainers like election happens and then next day things go on right um the way they see it but for the immigrants It's really not like that. I freaked out. I first term he talking about travel ban, obviously was talking about immigration was still up front. And I couldn't wait to be neutralized. I couldn't Wait five years to arrive and so they could go through the process and has everything and become neutralized and start voting. I could not wait for that. Now, I see much worse in the community. There's a lot of fear. Not necessarily about the community seeking asylum only, but also in general, the population, because I think one of the things that Trump's circle now said was like, OK, if you help the communities that are here, you unquote, illegally, right, people without documents, we're going to also punish you. And I'm not saying this, you know, they put it out there. There's a there's a direct quote from Tom Homan, who's, you Know, who said, we're also going to punish people who really help and support people who are here, you know, And so businesses are freaking out. Is freaking out like, what is he going to do? Like, it's, You know, you I remember a mother who owns a shop in Lewiston, Maine, actually was in a group chat. She said, what happen to me? It was one of those questions. And my advice was like, you Know, are some organizations out there who can, you get you connected to some volunteer attorney or somebody that can give you appropriate advice. But my opinion is that they're not, they don't kind of shut down your business. They're not, They can't text you more. I mean, that's ridiculous. But then again, I, it's my opinion, but my, my understanding also is that man, Trump can do anything. This guy, you know, we had, we had seen him do things before. And so, so

0:18:47 Matt: Can feel that way sometimes.

0:18:48 Abdi: It can feel that way sometimes. Times but is my first time um I voted against him but you I I'm just looking at him and telling myself I can still watch movies at night because I'm an american naturalized citizen so I don't really worry him doing anything but my community the members of my community a lot of them who are it's still permanent resonance that some people choose to not become naturalized citizens because they, you know, they just want to keep their green cards. And that's their choice. That's fine. They're still paying taxes, but they can't vote. Right. And others, you Know, so, you I think of them having these constant nightmares of be happening. And again, you all know the rumors of, you know, using the military and the police and, and know, eyes to round up immigrants. Started saying that lately and deportation has been in the minds of so many people. One thing. And then the other thing that really scares me a lot is every time I write an article, for example, the one that you just mentioned. I have more than 20 emails that are from people that think, you my call to buckle up and fight is ridiculous, right? Then there's also a larger number of emails that would say, please, thank you for saying that. We really want people for you like to speak up. So, you know, it goes both ways. And so I'm putting myself out there, literally risking my own self. Maine is known for a little bit of white supremacy, and I'm not making this up. They have

0:20:23 Abdi: Rallied a few times here and there. And, and so it's not really easy to put yourself out there as a black immigrant, Muslim refugee, you you know, all the layers that I can identify with. So And that is what worries me more, to be honest, than what Trump says. You know, I'm like, is somebody looking up where I live? Is somebody really, you know? I know we're in America and there's obviously no, as far as I can remember, history of, you knows, someone basically harming physically some immigrant in Maine. But hey, could it happen someday? Could I be the one? So anyways you know those things are in the back of my mind and not shutting me down like I'm not I'm Not gonna go quite I feel the fight is is the right fight and I feel I built a community of listeners and audience that really is is looking up and and is interested in in things that I say and you're wondering I never expected that this would be the america that I would move into I was more interested in movies and music and things would go on right work and make some money and support your family that was my plan here we are fighting against the president of the united states who thought so you

0:21:31 Matt: What did that feel like, that vote on election day?

0:21:34 Abdi: Know for someone who has never voted in his native country somalia you know still Still, no system there. It hits different. It really means different. I literally cried on my naturalization ceremony. We had a U.S. senator by the name Angus King from Maine who showed up and said a few words. And I was standing shoulder to shoulder with a from Britain, another man from Belgium and France and Rwanda and Djibouti, you know, 23 different nationalities. And raising our right hands and taking the oath of, of the united states of america and to the flag it it's so different that I only wish native white americans would they have the opportunity to go watch naturalization ceremonies they are really emotional you know it makes you understand what this country is all about people are all um coming under this umbrella of the united states and we're all immigrants but from different continents and all have one name next to our name, Americans, right? If you're from Rwanda, I'm from Somalia. Obviously, we are from the same continent, but we don't speak the same language. However, we're all united by this one word that we all took allegiance to, right, the United States of America. And Native Americans obviously don't know. You know what? But if Donald Trump ever ends up listening to this podcast, I would highly I would highly encourage him to go to one naturalization ceremony. Not sure if he went to Melania's. I don't know. Maybe

0:23:07 Abdi: He did.

0:23:07 Matt: Probably not.

0:23:07 Thomas: Probably not.

0:23:08 Abdi: Maybe he didn't. But I really recommend that he does before deportation starts and naturalization ceremonies take place every week. So please go do it. And you will learn what America is all about.

0:23:19 Matt: Such a good point. Yeah. Been thinking a lot about sort of that fear and about the messaging that we're putting out right now. And there a lot less to be concerned about in communities like yours than the might suggest. And I'm trying to find a way to explain that. I think we're gonna be doing that over the next few months here. But I really hope that people everywhere who are able to hear this or engaging with us can understand that there are reasons to be concerned, but the kind of mass deportation, the kind militarization that we're talking about, not we're not there yet we're some time off and there's plenty of time to get ready and to fight and we don't have any more of the infrastructure yet I'm sure you know that but I think a lot of people don't and know I just it's it's concerning to me how effective those messages are and it really helps to hear from people like you about the mental health effects of that about what happens when we put these messages out there

0:24:06 Thomas: Could go on for hours about this, but could you tell us the broad strokes of like how you established yourself in America and what you how you decided to, you know, career path or school path or what you decided and how you decided what you wanted to do once you got

0:24:21 Abdi: Know, I wanted to go to college for comparative politics, mostly. One of the, you easy, exciting things that I can think of is like, you mean, think about the little things like the mailbox that's right across the street, you where a little truck shows up and dumps all the mail. Know what I mean? Like to the American, you're used to it.

0:24:45 Thomas: Stuff we take for granted, you mean?

0:24:47 Abdi: But stuff you take for granted. And I come from a country in Somalia where the streets don't even have proper names, like, you know. Five different names. The houses don't have numbers. So you can't even think about mailing anything to your family. And that actually caught my attention earlier. You know, I said, how is this American society established? Like, how did they get here? Right? Do they like what what does it take what what does it mean to a town hall for example um do the americans really care a lot about local issues why are they always running around voting or joining this and that you know and you know the small town I moved into is pretty much an elderly community and they're very well involved in the local stuff what's happening you know this and dat housing uh this and tat I that caught my my attention. And someday I thought, this is really helpful. If I can understand something about how a government works, how a society functions, how order happens, this could help my country. Probably could. And it's out. I've in endless discussions with the college -educated East Africans. There's a whole forum that we belong to. We come together and discuss and interesting issues that we often cover and like we're educating young young men and women who are back home who now have um know whatsapp or instagram facebook you know we we talk about issues that uh they find really interesting so you know where you know at least I'm trying to take the good stuff uh of america and and not really dump

0:26:16 Abdi: All the toxic things, you know? So there's a lot of good things of, I mean, America's college experience is considered one of the best in the world. And there's some to that. And so it makes me feel absolutely honored that I am a graduate in this country, right? It's a, it's something that my family never even dreamed about. My mom, though she's very smart, she's a very good at math, can't read or write her own name, right. Right. And she never been to school. So to me, getting to that where I can graduate and have a discussion, conversation around the politics and the social structure of our country just makes me feel like someday maybe I might decide to go back. And maybe decide to run for some kind of office back home to help out my people.

0:27:08 Matt: That's great. All right. You want to tell us about your book real quick?

0:27:11 Abdi: So way, way back when I was learning English from the Terminator, age nine or 10 or 11, you know, I started writing words on the walls of Mogadishu and Mogadisha's houses are, you least when I Was growing up, the houses were there but the roofs were missing, the doors were missing the windows, you know it's a war people break down and the houses are often empty but you have these endless walls that you can write things on and I remember practicing the words to stop, don't come in, move around, you Know just small phrases and I tell people that's where writing started for me and then gradually you know I used to write email news from Somalia to Paul Solopek I beg my friend who's a journalist and has started publishing my little pieces of emails as a, you know, news from Somalia, sort of, even though I wasn't a professional journalist. Then in September 2015, less than actually a year that I've lived in Maine in the U .S. at the time, I went and attended the United Nations General Assembly in New York. Uh president was still holding office but that was his last you know his last year in office and um and I you I know was in the middle of this giant building where everyone was wearing fancy suit and like professionals and presidents and like people who work you and I was given five minutes to talk about refugee crisis um then it was 65 million people were displaced today it's 110, I think. I was on a train back from New York to Boston, and then a bus from Boston to And I had plenty of time to think about it. I said, wait a minute. So I just did a five -minute talk in New York, at this United Nations headquarters, a massive building where everybody comes together. And that little bit of talk had really made some kind of impact on the people that were there right politicians and everybody else what if I read a book right how how much impact would that bring it basically talking about my own story learning english and you know watching movies uh and and you know family and blackhawk down you know all kinds of things and I started drafting my story um I had a draft and sent it out and random house uh it boom it took off and it did very well actually yeah

0:29:36 Thomas: Year did it come out?

0:29:38 Abdi: Yep

0:29:38 Matt: So everybody knows, that's Call Me American, a memoir. I just want to be sure we get the title in there.

0:29:41 Abdi: That's right call me american

0:29:43 Matt: Sorry. Anything else you want to let us know about? Anything you want share with the audience about where they can find you or anything else that you're up to?

0:29:49 Abdi: Mean I'm I'm everywhere uh

0:29:50 Matt: Okay, great.

0:29:51 Abdi: Delightful to be on this podcast and really Really, really, really thank you to both of you for having me on.

0:29:57 Thomas: No, thank you for sharing your story.

0:29:59 Matt: Yeah, thanks for taking the time. This is great.

0:30:00 Thomas: One take message that you would like our audience to take away from your story, what would that be?

0:30:06 Abdi: Give up. You know, there's always hope. And know we're going through a lot. I know. We as a country are in the process of change. I have faith in all of you. One thing that I feel that gives me more motivation is, like, I really love how Americans, well, not all Americans. But some Americans are so, you know, how to fight. We just give up. And togetherness, kindness, appreciation. And honestly, if anybody is listening to this podcast who has some dilemma about immigration, please just chat with some person who had seen all these action movies, loved America, knows how to dance. Meet Just them. Meet them and listen to their story and have a chat you of the things that uh often think is like you know these immigrants don't really like to assimilate in america come on man you know I I simulated before I even came here right but at the same time I didn't leave behind my own culture traditions I hold on to it I I practice my faith, but I also really appreciate every other faith in this country. Started loving American football. I never thought I would. And I'm a downhill so who assimilates now? So just, yeah, I really hope that people start opening up and understanding things aren't the way they think.

0:31:25 Thomas: Absolutely. Think there's a lot of cynicism. And obviously, it's such a good reminder of how much we do take for granted. Like never going call myself patriotic because of so many of the bad things that our country stands for. But hearing your story and hearing the story of immigrants like you, it really is a chance to step back and say, wait, we have a good thing here. Like we really do. And I think that it's so easy to forget that. And I think it's so easy for especially just privileged Americans to think that oh, well, things are as bad as they could get. And like, no, there's always room for it to get worse. As much as as much as that sounds bad, that's actually a positive message. Can get a lot worse. So we need to appreciate and protect what we have and not lose it. Story And just really reminds us of that. So thank you for sharing it.

0:32:11 Abdi: Yeah. And I love that. Thank you.

0:32:12 Matt: Mean to time this for Thanksgiving, but it really is such a wonderful wonderful thanksgiving message I think do you have any plans for thanksgiving what awesome

0:32:18 Abdi: Do I thank you for saying that I just put together my ingredients for sweet potato souffle which is uh my favorite dessert um meaning my sponsor family uh one that you just heard in this story um I are getting together uh we're watching uh wills um we are we do that often uh very american right and looking forward it's so much fun it's one of my favorite uh um I really can't wait I'm pretty excited lots of movies lots of food uh lots of uh board games you know see who's sounds like american now

0:32:34 Thomas: There you go. Yeah, excellent. Be more American. That's the best. It's perfect. Well, fantastic. We wish you very happy American holidays. And Abdi, thank you so much. Appreciate the time.

0:32:54 Abdi: Indeedy indeed that's right I love that Excellent. Thank you so much for having me.

0:33:06 Clip: I just know, that you are gonna kick that bar's butt, out of here, you know, No.

0:33:11 Thomas: Now it's time for Thomas takes the bar exam. It's the answer to last week's question 48. Please, dear God, have I broken my streak? Heather, how are you doing today?

0:33:21 Heather: Luckily my house hasn't been foreclosed on, so pretty dang good.

0:33:24 Thomas: I would say the same thing, but if it had been foreclosed on, I wouldn't maybe know the answer to this T3B. So, you know, trade -offs. Yes, remind I us this foreclosure mortgagee related question 48 that we had last week.

0:33:37 Heather: Well we had a guy who owned a house that had a mortgage on it that was worth $120 ,000. His tenant moves out and then he decides to sell, but he's unable to sell the house because the estate market tends to drop. Then the mortgagee foreclose on the house and then had a a foreclosure sale in which they received $50 ,000 on the property. So we're trying to figure out what is the man owe to the mortgagee? And that's where it stands. How much does he owe on the mortgage? Well, you did a great job identifying this as a real property question. So your instincts were spot on. This is classic real property.

0:34:09 Thomas: Small small victories, but I don't actually recognize small victories.

0:34:13 Heather: Well, that's why you have me. Is a mortgages question. Bar has been testing mortgaged up with some increasing seeing frequency and it's mortgages is kind of a big topic in and of itself within real property. And you kind of saw that as well, going through the question. And I think that's kind of pops out as you see the word mortgagee, mortgage and that sort of thing.

0:34:32 Heather: So we knew that that was our big subtopic here. The first thing I'll do is we actually got a question on Blue Sky that kind of made me want to talk a little bit about this question a more. So if you were listening to the question and you thought it sounded a littlebitte different maybe than what you've heard before, I'm going to address this. One of the questions on BlueSky came from the buttons with a at the end that said, can you ask Heather how quickly the bar updates their questions or creates new ones.

0:34:58 Thomas: Would think every year, don't they?

0:35:00 Heather: So, well, the reason I'm mentioning this right now is because the California Bar specifically has just contracted with a new vendor for their multiple choice questions. Yeah, starting in February. And

0:35:12 Thomas: I started out in my garage, a small multiple choice questions business. This. So yeah, you know, I hung a, what do they call it? I hung a shingle or whatever they put up a, whatever they say.

0:35:21 Heather: You're hanging your own shingle. Yeah!

0:35:22 Thomas: Hang in my own shingle. Yeah. Hey, multiple choice questions here. Get your multiple. And then finally get, oh, I signed the big new account. It's the bar exam. Wow. Great. Hmm.

0:35:33 Heather: Going with Kaplan, which is one of the larger, yeah, they do a lot of test prep and they're one of the largest bar prep companies on the market. So they're actually coming out of the bar prep market in California specifically just to write these questions and work with a bar. So California the Bar Examiner said, hey, don't worry, everybody. We're going to give opportunity to check out some practice questions. And this was one of those practice And I thought it'd be, yes, exactly.

0:35:36 Thomas: Yeah, I know Kaplan. Oh, so before it's live. Okay. I love it. I'm so glad you answered that question. Makes That's, a lot of sense.

0:36:02 Heather: So I thought that was a great question, especially based on our timing. If you're thinking this sounds a little bit different, that's why, because it's one of these practice questions that we're looking for.

0:36:09 Thomas: Have to confess. I didn't think it sounded that different what what about it seems different did I

0:36:14 Heather: It's really not supposed to because legally it's not actually supposed to be any different the california park can't actually make any radical changes

0:36:22 Thomas: Was gonna say yeah imagine if you went through law school for however many years and then at the last year they're like changing it all up it'd be like that would be pretty rough that's its own bar question a man went through love school for four years

0:36:32 Heather: It's it's a torts question it's an iad no skin no but I'm glad that you made that comment because that's actually the case is that a lot of the questions are looking a lot like that and they should have the same look and feel as a lot the questions that you've seen before so we can get into talking about mortgages. Hooray! We've all been waiting for it. Technical is that it's a conveyance of an interest in real property to secure the repayment of a debt. So you're conveying your interest in property to ensure that you're repaying that debt that you owe, right? I'm sure you also saw, and you did this great thing in the question immediately, which I was so happy to hear you do, which is that you replaced the word mortgagee with bank. That was so smart. I was so glad to hear you do that because part of the challenge of this question is really twofold. One is which is navigating that vocabulary, which can be particularly challenging because the other word is mortgageor. So you have a mortgagee and you have mortgageor and mortgagee

0:36:48 Thomas: Good yeah yeah

0:37:27 Heather: Is always going to be the lender here. Dann what we're trying to do here too is we're trying to a little bit of math. So one of the other challenges is that the bar knows is that lawyers are very math averse. The good news is that no question on the bar is ever going to do really more than usually simple math.

0:37:44 Thomas: You say good news, but that's bad news for me. I would, I would be, I'd have a way better chance at the bar if there was more Mac, but you know.

0:37:52 Heather: Well, They expect that when we see the math that we kind of do a little, oh no, but it's really, again, a lot of times simple addition and subtraction. And so your credit, you didn't let that get in your way. So I give you credit for that.

0:38:03 Thomas: Didn't even use a calculator.

0:38:05 Heather: Exactly. You shouldn't have to. What we're trying to do here is we're trying to look for the numbers that really matter. And so here, you were saying that you eliminated C and D. So remind me again why it was, for example, that D didn't look like a good choice.

0:38:17 Thomas: Sure. Well, so well, C was the man owes the same that they even owed. The mortgage, which would, that would seem pretty harsh. If you go through foreclosure and yet that does nothing, you still owe the total amount you owed. And then D was owing the, the of the house, which that's, I mean, okay. Imagine if you had paid all but a hundred dollars of your mortgage and then they're like, well, foreclosed. Now you owe what the initial price was way back when, when you took out the mortgage. That's insane. So I think C and D were pretty easy to eliminate. And if either of those was the right answer, I'm going to get up and leave the room and I will not play anymore.

0:38:51 Heather: You are correct to eliminate because both of those are wrong answer choices. That's exactly it. And part of that is also because we're looking at the foreclosure sale here. And the forecosure sale is that's a legal proceeding to does two things. It the borrower's interest in the property in this question. We're kind of cutting off the man's property interest. And it's also trying to satisfy the debt, right? It's trying to the mortgage debt that's left over. And so since we know, like you said, since it's not about how much the house was worth, $150,000 is out. And since we knew that there's some money that went to it, since they raised some of that money at the foreclosure sale, we know that $120,000 isn't it either? So you're right to eliminate C and D. what we do here is we start by taking the number of right, right, which is 120,000. Then what we'll do is then we'll take the amount of money that was raised at the foreclosure sale. 120 minus 50. the sum of that is is going to be our answer.

0:39:46 Thomas: The math wasn't the issue. The issue was, is that how it works?

0:39:52 Heather: What happens is when the foreclosure sale doesn't raise enough money to pay off the entirety of the mortgage, right? So if the amount of the mortgage is not equal to the amount the funds raised, right, is still owed to the bank. It doesn't disappear. Still has to pay, right? That somebody is the borrower because they took out the money, right. Although we'd like it to disappear, that's not what's going to happen.

0:40:12 Thomas: The bankruptcy thing then, is kind of like where you, because thereís no way, I mean, this would follow people around forever and ever. Like there has to be some way that people get out of these like insane housing bubble mortgages, right? But I guess it's not this, it's some other thing like bankruptcy maybe.

0:40:27 Heather: Well, in this particular instance, what will happen is the bank, what they'll do is they'll likely file for a deficiency judgment, which means that they'll probably turn around and they'll sue the man personally for the balance due. And then it will follow him until he can, like you said, likely head into bankruptcy.

0:40:42 Thomas: But importantly, okay. But on paper, he's still going to owe that until you do all that. Yeah, I should have gotten this. Went for the wrong answer, which is still not the best strategy. So, So I don't know why I keep doing that. But sounds like the answer was B and not A.

0:40:54 Heather: That's correct. And the man still owes $70 ,000 to the bank. That's

0:40:57 Thomas: My thinking was like, why would this even happen? Because that's the same as just like, well, you try to sell the house and you don't have enough. I thought foreclosure would be that process of like, but you spell it out, I mean, it does make sense. There would have to be some other proceedings that handle that because otherwise. I thought the act of of like being forced out of your home although in this question is the person is using it for rental prop but I would have thought like that that's already bad enough if this means the bank is like expelling you from your home like I thought if they have the right to do that like feels pretty rough that that means you still owe them everything like that's somehow done nothing for to satisfy your debt they've just just forcibly sold a house that like you could have just done that. So I think that, so that was my reasoning was like, man, foreclosure is a harsh process that at the very least should like terminate this whole thing. But Hey, guess I'm wrong. And we live in more of a capitalist hellscape than I thought.

0:41:49 Heather: I'm sorry. Wish it was better.

0:41:51 Thomas: That sucks. Five in a row. Wrong. Not doing great. I think I've dipped below. I've dipped below 60%. This is not good, Heather. I need to stop doing this. I needed to get the right answer. I should have gotten this one. I shouldn't have gotten it. This was was bad, but right, Heather, after yet another embarrassing failure on my part, it's time to take a look at some people who did better. And some people agreed with me. Some people agreed, agreed with my compassionate world. Look, we'll split the universe off. I, you answered compassionate universe answer. Obviously, we don't live in that universe. We know that this should be overwhelmingly obvious by now. But, you universe, I obviously got this one wrong. We've got some great answers on blue sky. Almost makes me forget how big of a failure I am. Because I'm gonna shout out shim -e on blue Sky. And I don't know why blue sky has the .bsky .social thing. I wish, that I hate. Whatever that is, get rid of it. I don't, what is, what does that? I've seen a few people have a different one. Like, is it, are there different blue skies or something?

0:42:52 Heather: Think as you sign up, you can personalize your domain.

0:42:55 Thomas: Okay. Well, that doesn't make any sense because we're still all just on blue sky, right? You're still just searching someone. All right. Well anyway, just let it be known that I'm going to only shout out and mention the part before the dot B sky dot social just forever. And I don'T care if that ever causes is any problem, I I don't care.

0:43:15 Thomas: Yeah, I'm really not sorry. Yeah. That's on them. Figure that out, blue sky. I don't get it. But shim dash E has a great answer. B, which was of course the right one. The bank is entitled to a 70 K deficiency judgment. Although Thomas's answer is wrong, it does seem to be based on an understanding that foreclosure defendants don't have any money. And that makes Thomas smarter than everyone responsible for the business model all Lehman Brothers.

0:43:14 Heather: Sorry, not sorry. I

0:43:39 Thomas: RIP.

0:43:41 Heather: Also love this answer. I thought it was great. I loved it.

0:43:43 Thomas: So good. Hey, somebody follow shim, S -H -I -M -E because, and I'm taking this upon myself. I don't know if they want anyone to follow them. They have zero followers. I think they just made the account. I want T3B and their fantastic answer to be the reason they they get a few followers. So shim -e. Well done. Fantastic answer. It seems like, Heather, looking at the, taking a broader look here at Blue Sky and Reddit and Patreon, I would say probably like 60 -40. It's pretty 50 -50, but I'm going to go ahead and just, just correct for my biases, say 60 - 40 people got it right versus, and it's all A or B. That was was pretty clear from the question it would be weird to have any other answer than than a or b I don't see a single other uh like cd guess so

0:44:25 Heather: And I think to your point, I thank you. I think we all love the compassionate world that you and I both want to live in and not the one that the bar exam lives in.

0:44:33 Thomas: Also just a practical one like I really was keying in on the idea that like what does foreclosure mean because I really have no familiarity with this I just have never really thought about it and I was like well it seems like it wouldbe similar to a bankruptcy process or something otherwise you're just selling the house and someone pointed out, I want to shout this one out. This other account on blue sky again thank you so much for following open args no not saying the rest of the part nothing there's after just open arc I'm never it's dead to me and uh serious pod while you're at it hey do you want anyone to follow you heather or no sweet what's

0:45:09 Heather: Listen, absolutely. I'm on there talking about stuff, including the law and law school, if you want to chat about that.

0:45:13 Thomas: Your what's your name thing I followed you back there you go we'll follow all of us and and I'll go to another winner on blue sky because they address sort of the an kind assumption I had to make because I didn't know and I made the wrong assumption and they said the answer is b though by the the way this is burn dash account so someone's burn account foreclosure is a tool for the bank to force the sale of the home the man still owes the balance of the loan 70k now in some cases the bank might choose to forgive the remaining debt blood from a stone and all that but nothing requires them to and yeah nope yep you're right I should have figured that out foreclosures I think that'S a great answer. For addressing kind of the, the the way that I went wrong there. As much as I'm trying to get people on Blue Sky and thank you so much, Blue Sky people, Reddit is still so much fun. It's sure. Reddit slash R slash OpenArgs. I know you found an answer or two you liked over there right

0:45:16 Heather: Thanks. It's Professor Varanini. Love it's sandwich time um

0:46:05 Thomas: You're by this is okay is this you is this your account you're always shouting out at sandwich time and then and I mean literally you're only shouting during recording it's sandwich time then we have to take a break while you eat a sandwich and I'm starting to think maybe that's connected you're telling me something

0:46:05 Heather: I'm sorry I'm Sorry, I'm Hungry. Its real property and math, two of Thomas's favorite things.

0:46:27 Thomas: And yet I got it wrong you know

0:46:30 Heather: If we could somehow work music law in, this would be the best question ever. Listen, listen, we can try to make that happen. Going with answer B. This is America. I'm sure there are laws protecting the poor mortgage companies. Listen, who will think of the mortgage companies? So even if they bet wrong, they will be made whole.

0:46:47 Thomas: Yep we job it's sandwich time I'm sorry I'm so sorry I don't know if you can hear me we also had some regular characters charles dickens a box love it uh be the bank gets its money always hard and fast rule yep no I it's on me it's I don't know what I was thinking I've I woke up. You know what? When I answered that question, I had just been locked in a bomb shelter since the 50s, like that movie with Brendan Fraser from the 90s. And I was so naive to think that, yeah, the bank wouldn't get its money. What was I thinking? Now that I think about it, I'm going to go ahead and say that I must have answered answered B. I'm pretty sure I answered B, Heather. So we're just going to say I answered A, B.

0:47:26 Thomas: Well, this was certainly an embarrassment for me. I fully own just Brandon Frazier from from Blast from the Past. Is that the movie Blast From the Past? Like are you talking about Encino Man?

0:47:25 Heather: Be. It was. It all I can think of is caveman for some reason so I don't know oh you can see no

0:47:38 Thomas: So I, that is a movie that was, you know, those movies that you see in the prime of your life, you're like six or seven and they're just for the rest of your life. They're like, that was the funniest movie ever made. And then you don't watch it again. And then if you watch, in fact, I've never watched that one again and I'm never going to because it exists in my perfect child memory of like, this was so funny. I'm sure if I did, it would be the worst thing I've ever seen in my life. I'm pretty sure. But that one sticks out. Encino, man. That's why I remember that. Pauly Shore.

0:47:38 Heather: Man thank you yes yeah yeah

0:48:04 Thomas: Sure. You got to, you know, but

0:48:04 Heather: Oh yes polly shore from the 90s I

0:48:10 Thomas: No, no, I think it's blast from the past. And so he's he's you don't know that we are not familiar with with

0:48:15 Heather: Listen I can't remember off the top of my head but I'm sure I've seen it

0:48:16 Thomas: Brendan Fraser's entire oeuvre, whatever they say. It's when he his dad is the Christopher Walkin in the 50s and he has a bomb shelter and of the Cold War, you and then what happens is a plane like crashes on the house. And so he thinks it's a nuclear war. So he locks him, the family in the bomb shelter for like 50 years. And then when he gets out, he's this like naive guy from the 50's raised by these, you you know, in this darling, precious, like family situation. And he has to meet the real world of the crime wave nineties.

0:48:54 Thomas: It's like late nineties, but it's still like the implication is it's like, kind of like, oh, it's horrible up here. When I think about it is a very conservative message. Now that I think About it like that, that's really a make America great again kind of message. Like we need this white guy who was locked in a basement from the fifties. He's precious, and everybody else sucks. Wow. Okay. Maybe it's not as good as I thought. No, that's not one I ever thought was good.

0:49:17 Heather: It's funny when that happens when you're like oh no oh that's that's not what I was expecting yeah

0:49:22 Thomas: Boy, that was a lot more. But it was like 1998 or 9 or something. So I think it was, like, nobody noticed. Was back when we thought things were so good. Were so great. They were good. We could never, it's never going to be bad again. So it's okay. We can just have this conservative message. Anyway, we'll see how much of that I even kept in the show. But congratulations to all our winners oh my god I'm such an idiot we haven't even gotten to the main place where is the big winner drum roll please because the biggest winner is junk bonds and junklaw on patreon.com who says the answer is b 70 000 in general you owe the money and the foreclosure only covers the portion that they recover from it. Can come after you for the rest, but it's expensive to do that and bankruptcy would eliminate that possibility. However, in some places, especially California, hold on, hold On everybody. Don't, don't touch that dial. Especially California. The answer would be a, if the house is the owner's primary residence, California laws do protect against this, but, it's not the owner primary residence. Yeah, just remembering that. The fact of a rental tenant seems superfluous, but it's not. Ooh. So it gets no such protection even in California. Wow. That's an interesting factoid. You know all that? You didn't say all that, but, but It doesn't really matter because it's California law and when we're not testing California law, but I, but IT does sound like maybe that was put in there just, in case, you know, what do you think?

0:50:44 Heather: That extra stuff is put in there for for that reason to just either put you down a rabbit hole right or um listen

0:50:49 Thomas: It's most of the time to throw me off, but in this case, maybe there's enough of a thing. Maybe that's, they say just California, But maybe that's enough of a thing that like the test makers didn't want to accidentally have people think like, well, primary residence, there's going to be these rules or something.

0:51:03 Heather: They and sometimes too to that point there's uh when it comes to property law there's minority and majority jurisdictions that follow certain rules and so it might be signaling that now also yeah not

0:51:12 Thomas: OK, well that's thank you so much. That's why junk bonds and junk law is the biggest of all winners. Something interesting. A fantastic answer. Hey, thanks so much, everybody, for playing along. It is so fun. Heather and I have a great time. You don't even hear most of it where we just talk about how good these answers are and enjoy going through them. Seriously, it's a delight. Playing. Please do. All keep doing this because it's fun for everybody. So here's what I'm going to do. I'm gonna get one of these effing things. Correct, Heather. Here we go. A break. I'm Gonna cool off or I'm Going to get even hotter. I'm not giving like just under the collar. I mean, not like visually. I'm just get like really intense and I'm Goin to get one right after this break patron junk bonds and junk law for sure isn't hearing because they're a patron they don't have to hear ads patreon .com slash law okay heather I'm perfectly calm calmer than you are 100 calm doing fine why don't we have a uh why don'T we have a bar question just casually just shit just stop I'm trying a new approach you got to be calm you know a lot of pro athletes are really like super calm when they're doing stuff I think think it helps you know maybe

0:52:08 Heather: Casual bar question yeah

0:52:22 Thomas: So just spark question if you have one yeah a little bar yeah okay let's do it it's

0:52:21 Heather: I I have one I think it came prepared we'll see see chris walked down the street he noticed a 1970 dodge charger was unlocked and the engine was running a security guard, Vince, owned the car and parked it in front of his house while he ran and grabbed the gun that he was licensed to carry. At the same time, Vince came out of his front door with a gun. Chris opened the driver's side door to the car. Vince warned Chris not to get in the car or else he'd shoot. Chris the warning Vince shot and seriously injured Chris Vince was charged with aggravated battery which includes battery committed with a deadly weapon can Vince successfully assert defensive property to justify the shooting a no because Vince was negligent in leaving the car running b no because vince used deadly force c yes because Vince warned Chris before using force against him? Or D, yes, because Vince reasonably believed that Chris was going to steal the car.

0:53:03 Thomas: Interesting. Oh, my gosh, what a question. Okay, and we've decided I have to get this one right, right? Okay. Before anything else I think I'm probably in the criminal law territory because it's okay so charged yeah if you're charged with something yep I think we're I think мы're dealing with criminal law and procedure so that'll be my category I'll So this is interesting. I was worried it was going to be some, like, stand your ground thing with the fact that he's, like. Still in his house or whatever. Like, there's. So it's. Okay. 1970 Dodge Charger. Unlocked engine was running. Interesting. Security guard on the car. So it was in front of his house while he ran in and grabbed the gun that he was going to commit a murder with. And then, no. He's licensed to carry. So we're all good there. At the same time, Vince came out of his front door with the gun. Chris opened the door. Or driver's side door shoot. Vince warned Chris not to get in the car unless he'd shoot. Ignore the warning. Maybe he's hard of hearing. We don't know. Shot and seriously injured Chris. Vince was charged with aggravated battery, which includes battery committed with a deadly weapon. So, aggravated battering. Interesting. Not like attempted murder. Or, I guess that wouldn't be murder. Well, it could have been. Not attempted murder or man... guess, Or do they have attempted manslaughter? I feel like I've asked that before. But it's interesting there's just aggravated battery, which includes battery. So, like, you got to think that he's guilty of that. Like, it'd be one thing if it was, I thought the question was going to be like, is he, guilty you of like murder or attempted murder? If we're already down to just aggravative battery, like if you can shoot a guy and it's just aggregated battery. Mean, maybe that's, I don't know, maybe the penalty is pretty high for that or something. I don'T know. But like, I feel Like you're already winning here. Can he successfully assert a defense to justify the shooting? A, no, because Vince was negligent in leaving the car running. Something I don't like about that, which is so negligence language. I'm going to put my Heather Veronini hat on. Negligence language is a different thing. Dealing with the tort of negligence with that language. And I old Thomas I can't wait for this to be wrong for this reasoning to be wrong I think Old Thomas would have been like yeah I mean he was negligent leaving the car like it was it was his fault that that was there and he kind of started the situation maybe but I think I think Heather would tell me well negligence is a tort and we're talking about a defense against a with a deadly weapon so it wouldn't really make sense. I think to talk about negligent in that way. I I'm I'm leaning heavy against a, but not like a hundred percent yet. But I'm thinking like, Oh, pretty much certainly no on a, because I don'T think that will get us there. Like, I think, I THINK the car running. I mean, okay. Set that Heather language about negligence aside. I THINK the car running is neither here nor there like that that really doesn't matter I think that that would only matter in the world we spin off where it's like well that's because chris has like a good reason to get in the car versus not but if the car weren't running I think we still need to deal with the fact that like vince shot a guy who was getting in a car and whether or not that's okay. I don't think that's going to be the difference between his defense or not. For all those reasons, I'm thinking pretty solid no on A, but we'll see. No because Vince used deadly force. Now this one jumps out at me because I feel like in this country, for some stupid reason, the police are allowed to kill people for property crimes. That just seems to to be a thing. Think that shouldn't exist. Like I think property is property and human lives are human lives. They're fundamentally a different thing. Barring some extreme circumstance. Like I guess you could say if someone was stealing food from a thousand people and they're going to die or something, then that's a property crime. Maybe shoot that guy. But, or like, you know, a banker stealing billions. Maybe shot capitalism, but don't shoot a guy stealing a car. I don't know what this country thinks. It jumps out at me because it strikes me that But the would make sense as a law. Like you can't use deadly force to defend mere property. Now, I think in a lot of places you can, or maybe everywhere, you can if someone's invading your home, you know, because that actually does make sense. You can't be like, oh, sure, take my property. It's my home. Because, you Know, that's scarier. I get that. I getthat you can use deadlyforce to keep people from invadingyour home. That seems reasonable to me. Not the application of it in this country, but it does seem reasonable as an idea. There is no danger. There's no world in which Vince is in danger at all here. This is merely property. And I think it would make sense if the rule was you can't kill someone over property and get away. That can't be legally cool that you just kill somebody or use deadly force against somebody over property where there's no danger to you. So B jumps out as a strong contender. CES because Vince warned Chris before using force against him. I don't know how to think about that. I mean, that feels like a crimey thing, like a police thing. And maybe the fact that Vince is a security guard is trying to get me to think about that, like he is a safety guard. He's a security guy, but he's not at work. Like that's just his day job. I think that might be a bit of a distraction. Feels more like a policy thing, issuing a warning before doing it. Also no guarantee that he heard him, although it says Chris ignored the warning. Nevermind. I don't want to fight the question. Let's assume Chris heard the warning and ignored it because that's what the question says. I don' t want to, I don´t want to make excuses for Chris. Chris ignored the warning, meaning he heard it. I guess that's possible. Let's, let's, I'm going to leave that for now. D, yes, because Vince reasonably believed that Chris was going to steal the car. Okay, I let me figure out what I think is the better yes answer so yes because Vince warned Chris or yes because Vince reasonably believed Chris was going to steal the car look I've gotten in trouble for being naive in the very recent past but but I really hope we don't live in a world in which all a citizen needs is a reasonable suspicion that someone's going to steel an object from them and they can kill someone like they can use deadly lead force. I don't want to live in that world. I think maybe we probably don't live in that world, but it just depends on like the jury or something stupid like that. There's probably some way the world still sucks. Do live in a really gun happy country. Like this is everyone's fever dream of what you can do in this country. I worry that maybe, maybe long as you do use, sort warning. Don't love C, but I think I'm going to narrow it down to B and C. I think, my favorite no answer is no, because Vince used deadly force. And my favorite yes answer, if you can call it that, is yes, because Vince warned Chris before using force against him. Because if D were true, it means you're just allowed to kill a guy who's going to steal something, which just sucks. And I hope we don't live in that. C, I'm not saying C C is true, but at least C would mean you can, as long as you give someone a warning, you can use force. It says, oh, that's interesting, before using force against him. The way the rule is then, is that just kind of bypassing what we're talking about here? Would suggest that there is, that maybe there isn't, like in the world of C, maybe there is no deadly force distinction. Because because Vince warned before using force against him of any kind, then that would mean that the deadly weapon thing did not matter. Right. I think there's a chance that's right. Um, between B and C I'm going with B because I just, I think it should be true. And, uh, and maybe I'm, maybe I've just a guy hoping a bank doesn't still get the money after foreclosing a house, but I'm gonna say that you can't kill someone for stealing property B, no because Vince used deadly force if you'd like to play along, please go to Blue Sky, go to OpenArgs on Blue Sky and find the post for this episode, I'll put T3B in there somewhere, but of course it'll have some other stuff too, and you got a quote bloot every time,

1:00:45 Thomas: It's funny quote skeet I think they say skeets, quote skeed it put put your answer in the quote tweet and that's how I'll choose the big winner because blue sky's the best and we're all heading over there doesn't mean it's perfect they need to fix some things but it's the alternative baby we're done with that other place and of course reddit if you want to keep your score and if you won't the biggest of all shoutouts play on patreon .com slash law go to where this post is put your comment under the post along with any other thoughts you have and I'll read them and that that's how you play along all right Heather that a lot of fun um don't you go ahead and in the intervening week here, can you work on changing the universe such that I got this question, right? Or if I got it right, that's good, but either way, we'll check back with you next week. What

1:00:44 Heather: Quote, bloot. Well, I'm excited. And I'm also excited to read everyone's responses because I think this is a really fun question and I'm excited to hear what everyone has to say too.

1:01:32 Thomas: Right. Well, we're going to go ahead. We'll see everyone next week, thanks so much, Heather.

1:01:35 Clip: Thank you for being, say we started from the bottom, now we're here, girl.

1:01:44 Thomas: Now it's time to shout out the amazing people on patreon.com/law who are making the show happen for real. You are the reason the show happens. You are indispensable. Indispensable, irreplaceable, vital. Join their ranks. Patreon.com. Got some new ones to shout -out. Thank you. So much to J .B. Ford, Stephen Oh, thank you so much for joining. Hope you enjoy not hearing ads and hearing bonus goodies. Now it's time for the weekly shout -out of the top patrons, the Hall of Famers. These are the amazing supporters who at that level and above for at least a month. In exchange, they get never -ending fame and fortune with a weekly shout -out. Some without shout -outs, you can change your patron name to do a fun joke, or you can sell something if you want. You can plug something if You want. Those, there's no rules. I'll read pretty much whatever, as long as it's not like a crime. So we begin with James H. Oh God, that might be a crime, I have to check. Vehicular man's laughter. Pride was a riot first. Yep. Michelle Chandler, root cause mitigation and ineffective gun control is a false dichotomy. Hanrahan, childless cat ladies, local 47 chapter. Is she talking about me? Apprentice of Adventure, Jesse D. Myers, unfrozen caveman lawyer. Justice is a dish best served with cold hamburgers. Cavalry, Nick Fish, a string of unpronounceable profanity. A negative phenomenon. Quick update, Ovechkin is only 26 goals from the record. Hey, I know that's true and current because we're getting, I like this weekly Ovechkin updates. He broke his, what was it? Not femur, broke his tibia. I don't know, some sort of broken bone, but somehow only going to be four to six weeks. Breaking something is, the lesson is, if you have a choice for some reason between tearing something and breaking something, pretty much breaking something is going to do it. It's going to get better most of the time, which seems crazy. Obviously, every time. There's going to be extremes. But like, instead of a torn ligament, which means you're out like a year, he, you know, broke his leg and is out four to six weeks. Crazy. So we'll see if he can get that record this year. 26 goals. He's going be out a while. Going to be close. Man, he was on a just absolute terror. So very interesting. Who knows what would have been. Got to fight for your right to ex parte. Jay Sink, let me use a question mark in my display name, you Patreon cowards.

1:04:08 Thomas: Test E's interpreter. Oh, great. Now I have to go back to changing my name every month. E .T., Thomas Freeman, Cajun killer, fraud fish. He hates everything. That's classic. Chris Simpson, love the extra episodes. Check out the Queer in Cryptography conference at cryptography.lgbt. Liberals own guns, too. Support root cause mitigation, not ineffective gun control. Not a lawyer, but I play one in court. Give up on funny names. I'm just Leo G for now. Stormy Decisus says, visit sharebandbooks.com. isn't a Patreon name, and I'm not reading anything right now. Now I just personally think Legal Eagle is so handsome. Mark Schultz, hors d 'oeuvres in the court before we report. The Cincinnati Kid, Bob Blah Blah's Law Podcast, Philly Basement Bar is closed in morning. Edgy Veggie, elect Thomas Smith president, American Honky Tonk Bar Association. Baltic Cate, Philip Kaiser, Matt minors anyway. Ooh, oof, oaf, oef, eek. Might be our winner this week. The 501st and Rebel Legion want you. Cosplayer's doing good. A string of unpronounceable characters. Milo Meadsong is on to the post -conviction process now that his cert petition was denied. Malika Chandler. Malcolm the Dragon, the precious variant. Big Easy Blasphemy. Fred Grotheus. RhondaTheDork.com. Chris Waltrip. Mitchell. And, wait a minute, ClassicLibTard. No, don't worry. It's just, uh, ByFelicia changed their name. So now it hasn't, we don't have a new champion to crown. But classic that by Felicia is now classic libtard apparently but either way they are still the number one all -time patron in the hall of famers and congratulations and thank you so much for the support all right that's our show we'll be back very soon with a rapid response because there's some stuff we got to talk about and a good Thanksgiving if you celebrate such things and much as other shows take time off you know me never really take time off. Can't. It's impossible. Furthermore, on this show, we've always liked to provide the liberal podcast fix you may need when you are precisely when you're around your conservative, shitty family. Hopefully that hits the right spot for you folks. And if not, well, then you're fine anyway. We'll see you very soon. Thank you so much for listening. You next time.

1:06:10 Clip: This podcast is a production of Opening Arguments Media, LLC, All Rights Reserved. It is produced and edited by Thomas Smith, who also provided the fabulous intro and outro music used with permission.

1:06:27 Thomas: Does impressions of. That guy. What's the fact is, you Know, who's everybody you impression of? So Christopher Walken, his