What It Really Takes To Immigrate "The Right Way"

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:00 Clip: You must never, ever give up or give in. You must keep the faith and keep your eyes on the prize. That is your calling. That is you mission. That is a moral obligation. That is a mandate. Get out there and do it. Get in the way. Change happens because people care. The people have the power to make this life free and beautiful. To make this live a wonderful adventure.

0:00:38 Clip: I still believe with all my heart, America can be a place where no child is left hungry, no community is left behind, and no one gets told they don't belong. Country is always worth it.

0:00:57 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Opening Arguments. This is episode 1091. I'm your host, Thomas Smith. That over there is real life attorney, Matt Cameron. How are you doing?

0:01:07 Matt: Feeling extra thankful we're coming up on my favorite holiday.

0:01:10 Thomas: What could you possibly have to be thankful about, Matt? I don't mean that as a personal insult. I mean, it's a, yeah, yeah.

0:01:16 Matt: My life is great, and I'm really feeling it right now.

0:01:20 Thomas: Okay, what do we have to be thankful for? Well, you know, actually we might be able to help you on that. If you're feeling down, if you're feelings negative about what's going on right now, honestly, I think what about to hear could really help that. I know it's helped me feel some hope, some positivity, and some genuine thankfulness and appreciation for what we have in way that that I think is really important right now. So I am so excited to speak to Abdi. Why don't you tell us how you found Abdi and who he is and what we're going to hear?

0:01:52 Matt: So I really wanted to bring some positivity to the immigration conversation right now because I'm just seeing so much doom, and I'm seeing so many people talking about how horrible it's going to be. And I'd heard of Abdi Nor before because he'd been on This American Life in 2015, a really memorable episode, I think one of the most memorable episodes I'd ever heard and just the story of getting his visa he's going to talk more about that when we talk to him here but

0:02:13 Thomas: Don't listen to that though. Listen to us because we're gonna do it here.

0:02:14 Matt: That's right and it's also you're going to learn so much more about him than you will in this american life too personally which is great you know I've been talking to people from other countries for 18 years and I've been hearing their stories a lot of asylum seekers a lot refugees and it has really given me a new appreciation over and over again for what we do have in this country and the many many things that I think we just never think about that we take it for granted every day. And it's really helped me to understand that. And I certainly, you know, I can't say I have these experiences for myself, but just hearing thousands of hours of stories like the one where we're going to hear today. So I saw what Abdi had to say. He's a writer and he's written a book actually called Call Me American, which everybody should check out. He a column in his local newspaper in Maine where he lives. And it was just exactly what I was thinking, what I've been thinking over the last couple of weeks about how this is not the time to give up. This is the the time to find our resilience. And it just immediately made me want to talk to him. I wrote him an email as soon as I read it. And I'm so glad I did, because he's just such a great guy to talk to. He's got such a wonderful story. And just the things he has to say to us as a country, I think we really have to hear right now.

0:03:16 Thomas: Absolutely. Excited for that. Well, is there any, you kind of immigration context you want to give us so that we know kind the technical aspects of the story or do you think we'll be good to go?

0:03:24 Matt: Yeah, well, he's going to talk about it, of course. He's a beneficiary of the diversity visa lottery, which is something that Trump talked about a lot during his term that

0:03:31 Thomas: Well why would I have you explain it matt when I could have the president of the united states explain it to me that seems yeah

0:03:36 Matt: Of chances for you to do that let's find one um

0:03:38 Thomas: Why don't I why don't you just check that out he

0:03:40 Clip: Following the terrorist attack in New York, I'm calling on Congress to immediately terminate the Diversity Visa Lottery Program. It's a disaster for our country. This program grants visas not on a basis of merit, but simply because applicants are randomly selected in an annual lottery. And the people put in that lottery are not that country's finest. We know that the program presents significant vulnerabilities to our national security. It's a very unsafe program for our country, and we're not going to allow it to happen.

0:04:17 Thomas: Makes it sound like it's something other countries are doing to us like that

0:04:21 Matt: He's this is the rational sane version that he's explaining we can find the less sane less here uh turn the crazy up a notch that's

0:04:28 Clip: Have a lottery. You pick people. Do you think the country has given us their best people? No. No. What kind of a system is that? They come in by a lottery. They give us their worst people, they put them in a bin, but in his hand when he's picking them is really the worst of the worst. Congratulations, you're going to the United States.

0:04:47 Matt: The one yeah

0:04:47 Thomas: That's how the late great Hannibal Lecter gets here is they that's yeah is

0:04:52 Matt: That's right yeah

0:04:52 Clip: It's okay. What a system, lottery system.

0:04:53 Matt: So we are going to hear they do not in fact uh put them in a bin and there local officials are not involved this is just people that are in other countries typically there's supposed to be countries that are not represented in our population so we get more diversity here and it's a great opportunity I've met so many amazing people and their families who've come on this program who might not otherwise have ever had a chance, and we're going to talk to one of them today.

0:05:13 Thomas: How many people do we let in this this lottery per

0:05:20 Matt: 55,000 people, so this is not flooding the gates. Yep, nothing. It's

0:05:21 Thomas: Year per is that a lottery and like what countries are people for is it worldwide lottery like how does this how does what are the mechanics of this oh

0:05:29 Matt: Yeah, it is an actual lottery administered by the Department of State. There was actually one year that they didn't randomize it enough, and unfortunately they canceled all of the results. It's a terrible thing.

0:05:36 Thomas: My God that would be horrible oh

0:05:38 Matt: No, it just is because people will sell their property and get ready and doing everything to to come over. Is actually carefully administered in a way that we select for countries that are not already overrepresented. So obviously, places like Ireland and UK are not in this lottery. You're talking about countries where there's historically low migration. And it's an amazing way to contribute to the American tapestry because you end up with people that would just never have otherwise contributed to our culture coming in. And I think this interview is really a reminder of how essential this program is.

0:06:07 Thomas: And and even if you were to take some of these people seriously in terms of their arguments about illegal immigration and quotes like even if you wanted to take some of that seriously, this is the quote unquote right way that they always talk about. And yet he wants to get rid of this.

0:06:20 Matt: This is it. Yeah.

0:06:23 Thomas: That's how — you know, look, I get that Americans have concerns about immigration. I get it. A lot of it is a result of demagoguery and fake stuff. But like, I also get that we're the reason I'm saying this is a lot of this election and the results and what we're going through is realizing that we are maybe not in the majority, you know, and it's like approaching things from a position of let's convince more people. Let's bring more people into our tent. That's what I'm thinking. Anyway, there it doesn't do us any good. Know, we lost we lost the popular vote this time. We lost it. Yes, Trump didn't get above 50 percent, but we lost the popular vote. And am starting to look at things and no one else is under any obligation, I guess, to do what I'm doing. But I'm starting to Look at things from a perspective of, OK, this is extremely scary that we might be in only in the minority, but who knows if that trend will continue in terms of our view of the world, our view compassion towards immigrants rather than fear and a desire to limit on the issue and deport them. And so how do we bring people into that? And I think that I say, okay, I hear your concern about illegal immigration. What about this? Isn't this something we should expand on? Isn't this very system, the lottery system, wouldn't that be, as we might hear, that's going to be the opposite of what Trump is saying. That's going to be the best of the best. I mean, that's going

0:07:39 Thomas: To be people who work so hard to get here, as you'll hear.

0:07:42 Thomas: Why wouldn't we want more of those folks? That strikes me as people who are going to be successful when they're here and are going to contribute, are going pay taxes, are going to make us richer in every way.

0:07:42 Matt: It is. It is. Someone who has never been to the United States before, knows nothing about it, has no connections, and is willing to come over here and give it a try and to really do it. I mean, that's a very special kind ofperson, as we're going to find out. And this program has consistently benefited us in so many different ways, and it's incredibly unique. And it also, I want to point out, it requires a lot more than a regular family visa. You actually have to, there's a basic educational requirement, and you do have to be able to show financial sponsorship, as we'll talk about here. It's not just completely random, and we just ship people over. It is a long process, and it is not easy, even once you win the lottery, as we are going to find out.

0:08:28 Thomas: Right. Well, it sounds like Trump maybe doesn't understand how this works or doesn't care. Probably both.

0:08:32 Matt: As the CEO of the immigration system, I would hope you would understand it a little better, but he really doesn't want to.

0:08:37 Thomas: Making this up, Matt, when I clicked the link for the video that you sent me, it had an Amazon related products under it. And like two of them were like a raffle thingy that you turn, like the thing he's talking about. I'm not even joking. It's like related to this. Oh, great. Awesome. Yeah. Cool. All right. Well, oh, why don't we go to the interview with Abdi it is so I can't wait for you all to hear it he's don't we just get to it, man?

0:09:01 Matt: Do it let's talk to him still right. Our guest today is Abdi Noor, who has been on This American Life, the BBC, lots of other places, and I was really excited to get the chance to talk to him about his story and about what's going on in his community right now. So, Abdi, welcome to Opening Arguments.

0:09:18 Abdi: Thanks for having me on Opening Arguments, it's it's uh it's an honor, yeah

0:09:22 Matt: No, I'm happy to have you. And I first heard your story back on This American Life in, I guess it was July 2015. Like a lot of Americans heard that story, I And, you know, even as an immigration lawyer who does this all day and has to deal with consulates it's all day uh had quite the journey that's right yeah

0:09:36 Abdi: Yep in fact it was uh it was July 3rd, a day before America's birthday and so it it's you know if I can remember anything I can't remember all the flat of emails that I've received of americans across the country you know saying hey I was in my kitchen and like hanging out with family and you came on the air, you know, and it was, it was another reminder of who we are as Americans. And it really, you know, it wasn't honored. And was the point, you know, to me, it's a story that I've been meaning to tell the world, but I waited for the right moment and got lucky. I

0:10:11 Thomas: Who wasn't listening to This American Life in 2015, can you catch us up? So it was the Civil War that was cause for displacement. Where did that happen in the chronology of your life, I guess?

0:10:20 Abdi: Perfect. So let's go back to when I was born in 1985. And, this is a guess. My mom hasn't recorded any any of, you Know, she she remembers everything. She remembers the the full names of women who were there, but she can't remember the month or the year. So we all made it out.

0:10:35 Thomas: I hard relate to that. I really relate to it, honestly.

0:10:40 Abdi: So my mom says, you shouldn't worry about it. You know, you were born you one day. Right. That's all matters. Anyway, so so I was actually I was born into a pretty wealthy family. My dad was was a very popular basketball player. Right? He was. Yep. He was going all over the world. He went to Iraq. He went into Italy. You know he was bringing jewelry, money, cash, all kinds of things to my mom. So we had a house when I wasborn and we had an lovely neem tree. And, you know, if you know what a neem is, you can't find it in the U .S. I traveled as far as Florida. I could never see that tree. It's a neem tree. It grows in the Somali desert areas out there in the world, predominantly Yemen, Somalia and other places. So, you know, we had that tree and there were lovely, you mornings. You know, of birds were so loud. So, I and then there was when my dad was a basketball player in the 80s, You know, there was a sense of peace in Somalia. There was a dictator who was running the country at the time for about 30 years. But I did not know there was civil war brewing. You know. You know, there were armed militia groups all over the country. And then all of a sudden, on one Sunday, it's actually a very popular term in Somalia, you know, the Sunday war, it is called. One Sunday the bullets started flying and everything was going downhill, right? And so, we left our house and I had no idea what was happening. I thought it was some kind of fun, right, we on the move. And I only if I knew that that was the last time we ever said goodbye to everything we owned, our house, furniture, my bed, you know, wealth, jewelry, everything else.

0:12:19 Thomas: How old did you think you were at this time?

0:12:21 Abdi: But that I five. I was fine. And, we were in the move. My dad was with us for about 30 miles outside of the city. And then he had to be on his own, mostly because the war, you Know, was targeting men, not mostly women or children. So my dad said, well, you know what? I don't want to risk your life and I don' t want to risk my life. So why don't I just disappear and you guys, if we don't see each other, we will see each another in heaven. Those were the words he said. And disappeared. So I've only realized that moment that it was real. It lost everything. This is it. As a child, I had no idea what was happening, where we were headed, where we would end up. I mean, I I couldn't process exactly what was going on. My mother knew the trouble, but she had used her nomadic skills. She comes from a very pastoralist community, so she had known the wilderness. She walked a lot as a child, you know, as a teenager, even when she married my dad, they met in the middle of the Somali wilderness in between the two rivers of Somalia, one called Juba, the other one called Shabale. She's taken advantage of those and she had taken us into the southern wilderness of Somalia, pretty thick place sometimes. And by, know, fast forward by age eight, when I was eight, my brother was nine and we lost a sister in 1992 famine that hit Somalia. Which involved the U .S. Army, you know, the U S Marines landed in Somalia, mostly because the New York times, the Washington post published front, front page. So the starving kids of Somalia and, you know, and was there, I was that, know, not that necessarily my face was on the New York Times, but like I was part of that story, right. Hundreds of thousands of kids that were starving to death and I lost a sister, but I didn't die. Age, my brother was nine, I was eight, and we started volunteering to help our family, you on the road, try to find water or food or whatever we could to our family. And so that is, to me, where the whole process of knowing family and appreciating a of, in you general, right? Right. When you when you get to that desperation and you realize things on Earth feels like hell, you appreciating a little bit. Right. Actually, one of my friends when was around that age, nine, eight or nine or ten, you know, I had so many friends and we played. And one of the things we had fictionally talked about was like, what if there was like a spaghetti right here and we all ate? You know, I mean, I know this is not a conversation American kids really want to get involved because they don't have that. You It doesn't make sense to them. Right. But to us, it was just like, how about some fresh meat? You know this and that. Things that that were missing in

0:14:55 Abdi: Our lives that that felt so good to have. Right.

0:14:59 Matt: Uh marines showed up did you have an impression of the united states did you have any thoughts about it or know about it

0:15:04 Abdi: Not. We had we my had dad. My dad knows a lot of Italian words because the Italians colonized Somalia in the 50s and 60s, right, before we got our independence. So they left behind a lot curse words. My dad could curse in Italian nonstop, so he did that. View of America was kind of the Terminator, Commando, Van Damme, you know, Jack Norris. Like, I expected this big,

0:15:27 Thomas: No, that's pretty much right. Yeah. That's yeah.

0:15:28 Matt: That's that's what we're all like yeah

0:15:31 Thomas: That's must've

0:15:31 Abdi: Yeah, these big, muscly guys running around, you know, like, you know, pretty strong, like looking like they're seriously like an like an alien description. That's what I had about America. Guess what? It was quite true when the when the Marines landed in Mogadishu because they were really muscler. They had some, you Know, they all looked like you can see their eyes because they all they were always wearing sunglasses, right? Who wears sunglasses in Somalia? And the sun is always out, right. It's pretty humid, very hot country. But but we didn't really know that you have to wear something to protect your eye. I mean, it wasn't very common in Somalia. So so remember running around the Humvees and just trying to trying to touch this weird, crazy looking, you Right. In

0:15:35 Thomas: Been really disappointed. Yeah.

0:15:36 Matt: You're talking to two of them right here

0:15:47 Thomas: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

0:16:12 Abdi: Mogadishu, that's exactly how I felt about it. Like these are the people from the movies. You know, just I just want to see what they look like in real life. And I gosh, I wish I knew I could speak English so that I could take notes of who they were. But like, you know, some of the soldiers were really friendly and had tossed out some candies. And, you a friendly relationship until all hell broke loose when they got into a conflict with a warlord, Muhammad Farah Aydin, and they made a movie out of it called Black Hawk Down. That's the story.

0:16:46 Thomas: Wow. Was wondering, was looking back, I know, obviously, when you're five years old, you know, I a five year old right now, they're not going to have a solid impression of geopolitics and all that. But like, do you have a concept now of were you in was your family in like a particular danger for reason? Or was it just entire atmosphere and region wow

0:17:04 Abdi: To answer that question, you really have to look at the Somalis as a clan -based society. We're by the clan lines. We are a pretty homogenous society. We speak the same language and practice the same faith you look alike there's no white brown black you know it's just pretty much the same but uh accent where you come from uh history clan history you know those are the things that divided us so my clan my mom and my dad are from the pastoralist clan right a little bit respected but they're not really feared right so They they don't carry weapons for example Whereas other clans are well known for having armed pickup trucks and it's all about the power. So when government collapsed, my clan literally didn't have a share of the conflict. So they were just mostly displaced and their lands, they lost their lands like my grandparents did. And, you know, so they, you know, a conflict usually brings everything down to its knees. So the country went down its knees and my family was unable to sustain their life as they did by, you know, fishing on the on the river or farming on on on the banks of the you know, to to do their their livestock, know. A trade. They weren't able to do any of those. So everything's just been there. My brother and I came up with such a great strategy to survive the civil war. And I think in so many ways it has saved my life. Somalia is different clans. So each clan has a dialect or an accent, right? But you go into Texas and you really know the Texas accent or the West, you know, or you go down somewhere deep in Maine and they have their own accent or a Boston accent, Right. So to brother and I, we were like, let's perfect these accents and dialects so that if

0:18:56 Abdi: We end up getting in the middle of a conflict, you know, you have to know which kind you're on. Like, so fake your own. Right. Because we all look alike. So it's not like it's person's white or black. So if you you fake the accent, you definitely belong in anywhere. Right? So that that's that's what we did. We actually, and up until now, I still have those skills. I don't use them anymore, but anywhere that I go to Somalia and I listen to people talk and I could immediately put their accent on and then they would think I'm from there, right? And my clan is actually not from there. So that was a great way of survival. And my brother and I did that. And I am sure hundreds of other kids have done the same thing for their own survival skills. Years in

0:19:34 Matt: Know since you mentioned it you weren't learning english at the same time were you just

0:19:38 Abdi: I was learning english from this other immigrant who moved to the u .s from austria arnold you know this muscly guy who was a bodybuilder um turns out he himself was inspired by the movies he's what he had watched when he was growing up uh called tarzan or tarzan um he was he was very very popular in somalia we love all these action things so it was pretty easy to to learn number one he had an accent so watching him while I didn't have any basic english right it was sort of easy if you watch uh of the terminator movies uh back in the 90s or 80s you know if you're watching more than 10 times you definitely you will definitely speak some english like he does right um but uh remember uh after

0:20:23 Thomas: If I ever need to tell anyone to get into the choppa yeah it's like we have that joke that when we learn spanish that it's all like oh the biblioteca like the the phrases that like everybody kind of learns at first you know to learn the language and so your version of that was like a bunch of arnold I'll be back you know

0:20:40 Abdi: Right exactly what what funny thing it was like um to america by eddie murphy uh found found its way to my neighborhood when I was still little and I uh my friends were like oh let's go walk you know it's a it's black guy from america so it's kind It should be really exciting. I didn't understand a word of what he said, honestly, even though he thought he was putting an African accent, but it was still Eddie Market, right? He speaks too fast. It's hard to catch him.

0:20:47 Matt: So funny well

0:21:06 Abdi: And I was like, okay, right, right. And so my nickname, honestly was Abdi American. You know, when I was, yep, that was my nickname actually. Up until now, my friends from time still, Still, when they give a call on either Facebook or WhatsApp, they always be like, hey, I'm the American, so tell me more about America, right?

0:21:05 Thomas: You need Arnold. You need Arnold to do it. Yeah. You remember a particular time when your ability to take on dialect and accent, came you in handy or was it a more general thing?

0:21:34 Abdi: So um water right uh or water as they say in british in britain I I remember perfecting it in water and my friends had her time trying it it's like wait wait wait say it again you know and then I I found it I things actually number one that I had some kind of talent that I could actually imitate accents and dialects right um most most most of my African friends now who speak English or have the thick African accent, which is fine. But, you I was able to, for example, say little instead of little. Right. And, you to me, it wasn't really, I had no idea what America was at the time, but like the fact that I had thought I sounded different, at least like the movies did and that my nickname was American was a huge motivation that I really did a little bit more, you knows, know to to try to perfect the accent and and then my friends were a huge part of that because they were so motivational they would always be like oh let's go to movies abby will translate you know and and they would sit there and and arnold you know kicks people around and he would say I'll be back and I would say he's gonna come back right there kill that guy right um I I felt embarrassed uh I know you might be asking this question a little later but when I moved to maine which is a weird place to start with America,

0:22:49 Thomas: I would feel that way too. Just so you know. Like I would also feel weird.

0:22:50 Matt: It is that's

0:22:55 Abdi: I embarrassed because I ended up working with construction folks. Maine has its own pride. They have their own accent. They don't sound like the average American to me. They really have this weird accent that doesn't sound the Boston accent, but it sounds like Australian slash Irish. And I was so, I was so confused. I said, wait a minute, wait a minute. Am I in Canada or where am I, right?

0:23:16 Matt: Such a not

0:23:23 Abdi: Then sarcasm was something I never really got into. I mean, the movies have told me some English but they didn't teach me everything and I realized, hmm, you know, it's a process. I still have to learn more.

0:23:35 Thomas: Are we, are sarcastic compared to the rest of the world? I didn't know that.

0:23:39 Abdi: Yes, yes. Americans really joke a lot. I mean I'll give you an example. My uh again uh know with this big uh that I worked with at the construction uh know place uh in in a in a small town yarmouth mean um talking about these guys with tattoos all over the place and who are smoking every 15 minutes right um and one of the guys came up to me when I started work the first week of my work and he said um Abdi, you know, you don't really have to help me. I got all the muscle and bloating all, you know, and we were talking about bundles of what they call insulation into the truck. In fact, turns out he was making some kind of sarcasm, like saying, hey, Agadol, yeah, I was like, you know, he should help me here. And I was like, oh, okay, well, if you're doing it all, then I'm going to stand here and watch, right?

0:24:17 Thomas: Like you weren't doing enough or something. Yeah.

0:24:28 Abdi: A couple days later, I realized the joke was going around. I said, I said, wait a minute, I'm confused, right? Didn't you say you were all set, like you were really not? He was like, and then he said, oh, sarcasm. And that, said what, you know, sarcastic. And that I took a note of that. And I said wait a moment, what does that even mean, right. And then I realized Americans actually say sarcasm literally translates as they're saying the opposite of what they're, you know, it's like when he says, oh I don't really need your help, I could mean that he needs your right and what of what kind of world I mean in Somalia we don't have those kind of jokes you know

0:24:26 Matt: Enough

0:25:06 Thomas: That is so, that is so interesting. What kind of jokes do you have? That's so much of our humor. I feel like we'd be, we'd been missing a lot without it.

0:25:15 Abdi: And right I mean you know Somali that jokes are definitely not more the saying the opposite of what you really intend to say you know it just it no it's not it's not really like that yeah we always mean it but our jokes are usually around around of the person uh you could make a joke out of that or the the physique of theperson you know things like that um the sarcasm american sarcasm was something that really got me excited so I you know I didn't feel bad I mean I I realized um glad this happened because I have to learn what what sarcasm honestly is and then um me a lesson to watch more modern American movies. And I said, those action films really didn't teach me any sarcasm. Right?

0:25:57 Matt: Sarcasm in action films that's very true so are you saying you didn't have any formal english education growing up at all is that right well

0:26:02 Abdi: Not at all. I mean, I never went to high school or middle school. Never. No kindergarten.

0:26:03 Matt: It's incredible you really sound like someone who grew up speaking english and that's just from movies

0:26:10 Abdi: I appreciate that. I've heard that many times. I really know the proper answer to that. But I love American pop culture. It was a thing. I moonwalked with Michael Jackson's thriller in all weddings and in my neighborhood. The elders hated me, but the young people loved me for that. You know, was it like a clash of, you know, of cultures like pop, pop culture. You can go anywhere in the world in the 90s. It just spread like a virus.

0:26:36 Abdi: You know who doesn't know Tupac, who doesn'T know Piggy Smalls, right? Who doesn'T Know Michael Jackson. Guess what? I know who Doesn'T Know Piggy smalls or Tupacs. People in Maine don't. Right

0:26:35 Thomas: Yeah I was gonna say I think you're more more American than I am, actually. I don't know most of these things.

0:26:48 Abdi: Well actually I attended one one event a few years ago in maine where nobody knew who tupac was and I was so confused it's like wait a minute are you guys not american but how do you not know how do your own people right but turns out america america's massive you

0:27:04 Matt: It's amazing sure

0:27:05 Thomas: It is a really big place.

0:27:08 Abdi: Well So let's, into Kenya in March 2011, everything fell apart in Somalia. Um tell you one story that was really interesting uh arrival in kenya so I I got into kenya from uganda uh kenya had refused uh accepting any flights from somalia into nairobi right so we we weren't able to you know but anyways when you're so desperate you always find a way so I went the back door which was uganda and midnight there was It was a group of Somali truck drivers and, you who were able to get people into the border in Kenya. That's where my brother was. That's one of the things I wanted to be there. There was the only refugee camp in the entire East Africa at the time was in Kenya, so the largest refugee camp was in the East Africa. The largest refugee camps in Kenya was called Dadaab, right? Half a million Somalis and Sudanese and other nationalities, And really, everyone wanted to be there because the United Nations had run the camp and there was a weekly ration, some food and this and that. And my brother was in there. But my brother decided, hey, if you can get here, I'm going to take you to the fanciest place that you ever wanted to eat. Right. All right. So I get into Kenya and my brother and I reunite after six years because

0:28:22 Thomas: Did you get separated? What happened?

0:28:25 Abdi: He left Somalia earlier, you know, six years before before I did. Older.

0:28:27 Thomas: Is he older? Okay.

0:28:30 Abdi: He's a year older. Yep. Was he also in search of safety and, he you sought refuge because well, let me give you a brief history of like what happened. And so in Somalia, if you're a boy and you turn 18 and you're, you know, you're a little taller, there's a good chance that you might really join an army, right? What else do you do unless you want to flee and run away from the country?

0:28:52 Thomas: Yeah.

0:28:52 Abdi: There wasn't many other opportunities open at the time. So my brother's much taller than I am. So he actually got much taller. And I remember being involved in a chat with him and mom my old mom you know where she said I just have these nightmares I really can't lose you you know I I you know the worst thing to me my said that that's worse than death is seeing uh either my brother or I joining a group you know and running around with an ak -47 like many other child soldiers would do another time, right? She to to us. So my brother left earlier because he was much taller than I was.

0:29:29 Abdi: And when I turned a little taller, and you I realized I looking around, there aren't really many choices out there. There is no school. And, And, you know, one way or another, you might be forced into or somehow, you you find yourself in, you know, joining some group because that's also a way of survival at the time.

0:29:51 Thomas: So why not do it on your terms rather than wait to be forced somehow kind

0:29:55 Abdi: Right. Yep. Or why don't you try what the other world has for you, even if it includes being a refugee somewhere else, right? Right. Really wanted me to escape as well. And so one of the main reasons that I had to leave Somalia, especially after Al -Shabaab, a if you Google Al -Sabaab they will come up. It's like ISIS. They they emerged in Somalia and they were so interested in young men mostly and, you join them or be recruited into their army. Me and and I didn't really want to end up in that place at all um I left and joined my brother and the fanciest dinner that we had was kfc kentucky fried chicken and he I remember him saying you know if you ever really find a cute woman here that's where you take her right and about uh one of the culture shocks of america honestly is like I thought everyone eats kfcc uh thought it was the most delicious thing I thought is the place that you take want want to take a woman on a date or you know or a guy on a date or something like that um was so shocked coming here that americans are like you know what we don't need some of this stuff you know and

0:30:27 Thomas: Hey mean there's a reason it's so successful like people do eat it they just don't want to like say they do for some reason yeah

0:31:02 Abdi: Uh well I still love it just that you know to be very clear I really I still you know um drive I'm a neutralist american I have everything now so I I do my I do mein thing and I'm very uh grateful for the country but yeah but that's that was the story of coming to Kenya. And now going back to your question, I apologize. I really took a long time answering it.

0:31:22 Abdi: So the visa you know, afternoon coffee or tea, as we call it in Nairobi, Kenya, was thing. You know, you get together with a bunch of friends, you sit in a circle, and 90 % of the conversation was all about soccer, like Liverpool, Manchester, like Africans really love Premier League league or champions league all know nobody knows baseball or american football we're all talking about soccer and and then right across that coffee shop there was a little what looked like a store and then they had a note a little you handwritten note on the wall and it said hey you can go to america and then there was american flag you drawn by my hand and some so this the guy he was a kenyan he about two people that he helped apply for the visa lottery program are now in the u .s and I was like wait a minute so you're saying uh is the real lottery not a fake lottery like you I could apply here and the state department might give me a chance to win the visa library right for the audience the visa lottery program is a congressionally approved and I think it was approved first for the european refugees a long time ago and they might have been adjusted in the early 90s to include every other nation 50 000 visas available but millions of people apply and so if you're really lucky and if you have everything lined up if you Have a high school diploma or a work permit or like that you could you could get to the united states and because of that so many countries have sent more than 50 000 people and I think england for example is just is excluded and canada is excluded nigeria is excluded mostly because they have sent enough people through the visa lottery program so it's real right and I I asking the guy all right so take my picture man I mean I have all the information for you let's do this and

0:31:21 Thomas: I know I yeah yeah

0:33:05 Abdi: Um so then by May 2014, the results came out, and I was the only one out of everybody, as far as I can remember, who applied for the visa lottery in that same place who was selected. I was only one, and couldn't my joy. But it usually says, winning the lottery doesn't really guarantee a visa. You have to go through everything else, right? And in some ways, it was really bad luck, you might say, because Kenya had a huge terrorist attack in Westgate Mall, it was called. And the Kenyan government had declared, literally, refugees to be deported. Like, what you hear in the U .S. now, it's kind of the same situation. I was a refugee at the time. And so when I heard the word deport, it is not new to me. You know, it happened a long time ago.

0:33:58 Thomas: Wow so wait there was a terrorist attack in Kenya and it and refugees were like blamed or something or it was yep

0:34:06 Abdi: And Yes, yeah, because the people who were in the terrorist attack were also originally from Somalia. And so the assumption was that, you know what, since, you Know, I remember the president literally saying, you hard to distinguish who's a terrorist and who's who's A refugee, you Know, that rings a bell, right? Right. Like what's happening here now? And then they targeted a thousand, a million refugees who were at the time based in in Kenya. And and I was I freaked out because I received the notification that I was selected for the visa lottery. And I had about six months to go through everything and gather all my documents and convince the U .S. State Department and the embassy in Nairobi that I deserve to move to the U .S. through the visa lottery. So

0:34:26 Thomas: Wow

0:34:58 Abdi: Know, one of the requirements for a winner, if you win that visa lottery, you have to that you haven't committed any crimes, for example, in Kenya. And to do that, you have to go to the police department, right? They have to take your fingers and they have, you know, they have to look at you in the system. You just have to clear you up, right. And I remember calling the U.S. embassy literally on, uh, on, on the phone and, and, uh an American sounding woman picked up the phone. And I said, listen, you know, we're hiding. Refugees are being targeted. I wouldn't mind going to the police station to get my fingerprints taken, but Hey, what if they actually Should they handcuff me now that they're looking for refugees? Like, what should I do? Embassy And staff said, you know what? The law is the law. You have to do that. There's no way that we can help you out. So I literally took the risk as a refugee and walked into this police department. And I remember this officer just looked at me like, hmm, how did you end up in here? Right? Kind of

0:35:58 Abdi: Thing. And I freaked out for a second. And I had, like, these shivers going on through my body. I'm like, oh, this is it. You before he even checks you out and takes your fingerprints, this guy might load you up in a truck and deport you back to Somalia. But it didn't happen. Thankful for a Canadian friend at the time who had known about my story, who was also at the Canadian embassy, wanted to help out if, in case, you know, they decided to do anything to me, right? So it all worked out and they did my fingerprints and nothing came out. So it was all clear. And that was a huge relief. And then it definitely contributed to the embassy realizing that this guy's really taking this risk. Right me doing that too because I did not want to miss this opportunity to win you to get my american visa um move to the u.s and I think they have considered that and I Think it probably had contributed to the um decision making uh of the u.s. embassy eventually realizing that um was the one that That really meant it. You know, I meant to come here. It wasn't a joke.

0:36:58 Thomas: It's not just a question of winning that lottery what happened that what happens what

0:37:01 Matt: I've just said you're going to have to still qualify and independently for a visa which means you have to go through all the admissibility factors that we would consider you know to make sure that like we're talking about you have a record and also in this case that you're gonna have some way to support yourself and uh you mentioned a sponsor family so you did have some help there

0:37:15 Abdi: Yeah. Sponsor actually is a big question because they ask you, it's like, hey, do you have a family up in the U .S.? And if you say no, and then they would ask you. Do you have any money in the bank? And if they say no. They would literally disqualify you and the visa would not be issued. Right.

0:37:27 Thomas: Did you find this out because it's like you know you won this lottery you find that out when didyou find out like oh yeah but that's just kind of almost the beginning of the process and there's all these other things you have to do oh

0:37:38 Abdi: Literally the next day. Literally the Next Day. Right. I know I won the visa lottery, but then I realized the next day after some research that, hey, oh, my gosh, it's a long process. I mean, 120,000 people have been selected for the visa, but only 50,000 visas are available. So the U.S. government already knows that more than half of people are going to get disqualified.

0:38:04 Abdi: So becoming a winner of the visa lottery program online doesn't really mean you're going to getting a visa. So, you competition. It's a knockout, right? You just have to walk your way.

0:38:12 Thomas: It's like an opportunity to apply so then did you already have at that point did did you think you were gonna do you did you already have those connections of people that were helping you? Oh

0:38:23 Abdi: And did. So the family, an American family, white American family from Vermont, who heard my stories. I did a few stories with a station in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. Now, interesting. So there was an American journalist who was a war correspondent, actually, Paul Salopek, who ended up in Mogadishu when I was still there. And, I you saw him and his cameraman on streets of Mogadishu while the war was raging shouted in English and shouted back and, you Know, and his bodyguards didn't give me a trouble. They could have sprayed bullets on me for saying that, but they didn't. And so Paul and I had a chat and he had written my story. So if you look up, I

0:38:37 Thomas: How did that happen this is before this did how did that come about wow yeah

0:39:09 Abdi: Think if anybody Googles the Was Bitter and Nasty, it's actually the title. That piece of that that paul the american journalist wrote uh the Atlantic yep probably back in uh maybe 2008 or 9 or something like that yep yep that that was me that's the I was still in somalia so Paul wrote that and then it exploded and a lot of people got their attention on it and that way I connected to uh public media and a few other podcasts that were able to do a of my story. And that's how I met this family in Vermont on a Thanksgiving when they had all their kids at home. And my story came on air and, you they said know, they froze and they listened. And, you mother, Sharon, Sharon McDonald, to to the producer, Cory Purcell at the time, who's now in New Hampshire, but she was in North Carolina at the time. And Sharon said, can I reach out to this Abdi guy? He's really, you he's moved my family. And I just want to say thank you. Right. And Sharon, who now is my American mother, that's what we like to call each other. And she calls me her son, though there's no official paperwork that they have adopted me, but I still really respectfully call my family, my family and

0:39:17 Thomas: For the Atlantic oh seeing yeah I'm scene 2009 that's that's so cool mm -hmm

0:40:22 Abdi: My mom. Out by the longest email I've ever read in my entire life and she included a snow and Lacey playing in the snow and everything about Maine that I thought was just this fictional world this world that I never I would touch

0:40:36 Thomas: It is it is a fictional world I still don't believe Maine exists but if you say so okay

0:40:44 Matt: Confirm I've been there myself but uh you at that point you you had a sponsor though that's a great place to be that you've got somebody that can sign off on you I mean that's that's really really hard to do that's

0:40:45 Thomas: Well you're in on it okay so you had that before the diversity lottery gotcha

0:40:55 Matt: Great that's amazing

0:40:56 Abdi: Yes yes indeed yeah yeah I mean they didn't know how you know if I could they never knew I was gonna come up to you as they had no idea but they they just reached out and we were um you know yeah

0:41:06 Thomas: They were just saying like, thank you, essentially, like for telling your story.

0:41:09 Abdi: It it started with thank you and then and used to be called sky by the time so we ended up on sky they wanted to know more about my family and my brother and I were just so excited to have a chat with them and you know they showed us the cats and the dogs and chickens and I remember saying american chickens look a little fat right um

0:41:27 Thomas: And they're so sarcastic too. They're always just like telling you stuff that isn't true. Bok bok? No, they mean the opposite of bok bok.

0:41:34 Abdi: Right but I I meant it I meant when I said you know because like the chickens that they showed me on the on skype videos like wait a minute those don't look like african chickens like afrikan chickens usually have like thin neck and like they look kind of skinny and slim whereas american American chickens come in all kinds of shapes and, you do know, they call these days? Breed. Yeah, and I think they were they really called that, you they enjoy talking about the differences and explaining things. They talk about snow and, You stuff. And then when I won the visa lottery, they didn't even hesitate to jump on and say, we're gonna write the letter for you you come up to our house you stay here until you find a job and then you can you can go wherever you want so that was basically what we did right

0:42:18 Matt: That I'm sure would have been the most difficult part otherwise I just knowing everything I know about how this process works and somebody for somebody in your situation no how long did the whole process take right

0:42:27 Abdi: A year, the whole process to be here it was it it was quite a headache honestly I uh were a few times that I thought so I wasn't going to make it. Didn't make any sense to me. I worked hard. I got all the paperwork that I really wanted. And somehow the American embassy decided we're going to contact you, but don't come back to the embassy. Go online and keep checking your case right there. You know, this is your case number. And we want you to go to to the online State Department diversity visa lottery, you system online. Line and and guess what you know if when I checked there it had always said administrative processing ap and and these two words are very popular in most of the immigrants who have went through visa and administrative processing literally means they're checking on you they want to find out who you are you know have you ever been connected to any terrorist group like who the hell is this guy it's literally what it means right every morning keep checking something something thing and by the way I just I really want to say that at the time during my uh I was in kenya and I was waiting for the final visa approval um I was also working on a documentary with

0:43:36 Abdi: The bbc in london um how did I end up doing that somehow again through the same article about But me in Somalia, some British guy who was working for the BBC, Leo Hornak, found my story. And somehow he wanted to chat with me about what was going on in Kenya. And he called and remember I telling him, I'm hiding. I can't talk now. You know, it's when the police were searching for refugees. And and then his attention called [unclear] this whole visa drama where the U.S. embassy was somehow not approving as many visas for most refugees. You know, if you're from Britain or France, the visa approval was very high compared to if you are from Somalia or Sudan or Yemen or this place that is often regarded as a hotspot for terrorism. The reporter really wanted to highlight that. And he did. He did a great job. So this American Live episode, there was another episode that was before that on called Abdi and the Golden, I think it had the same name, Abdi And The Golden Ticket on the ABC. And anyone can find that as well. And so that that reporter, Leo Hornite, reporter, the called the U .S. embassy when I was so desperate. And expectation was that they might deny my visa and also the visa lottery expires so you get if

0:44:51 Abdi: I get if if September arrived in 2014 I had no way to get my visa right it expired so

0:44:51 Thomas: Shoot. Wow, even if if it's just a lot of them processing you forever?

0:45:03 Matt: Nice

0:45:03 Abdi: Correct it expires it's not like any other visa it runs out um so that Yeah, the British guy the U.S. Embassy, and I think he, hate to use the word threatened, but he might have said, hey, we're working on a story with this guy. What are you, you know, why are you holding him up? Something like that. Guess what? A couple calls later, I checked again online and said, my visa's been approved.

0:45:22 Thomas: Wouldn't you know it?

0:45:23 Abdi: There you go. It's happy day.

0:45:26 Thomas: Bet. Yeah. Strikes me about your story is just how many many things were so unlikely and were so difficult. And always talk about, hey, do it the right way, or they need to do it The right way. And it's like, the right way is terrible. The rightway is impossible. I, like we're just talking to someone who won the lottery, you yeah, but like, so we end up seeing people, if contact with immigrants, sure, we may see many of them, but each of them has such a difficult and unlikely story of how they got here. And I think as Americans, we don't appreciate how difficult that is.

0:46:03 Abdi: Need to understand that the rejection rate for even legal path is way higher in the US, right? Immigrants before they even moved to the US actually have a hard time cutting through it. People who do that are the like, yes. So the process is complicated. Process is uncertain. I wish there was a clear path or an understanding of where the case was. Like most of my concern after the visa lottery selection came about and after I put together all the required documents that I had lined up, everything that the U .S. government asked for, including sponsorship letter. Or they had even asked my sponsor family for their bank accounts and probably shocked.

0:46:45 Abdi: It's like, oh, wait a minute. So you're sponsoring this man. You with all of that, there was a pretty good chance that the government or the State Department or somebody. Really, I still don't understand how the decision making happens.

0:47:01 Thomas: I don't either. We do a show about it and I still don't understand it.

0:47:03 Abdi: You know,

0:47:02 Matt: Don't either yeah I do it every day and I still don't understand it sure

0:47:07 Abdi: I think I think I'm not really making up when I say depends on what your name is and where you come from. And I I'm very sure, you Abdi, for example, you know, this young man. And I was in my 20s when I you know, when I was going through that through my my visa, you and, you family connection to the United States except for this white people who have decided to sponsor me right um I'm also sure that somehow the government the state department finds a way to look up my my name or my face or you know somewhere out there technology to figure out if I if there was anything ever you know and with all those cleared there was still this endless administrative processing uh that I I that was an online status that never changed.

0:47:52 Thomas: And that time you're hiding from the authorities, right? I mean, or did anything change with that?

0:47:56 Abdi: Actually, nothing has changed. The terrorist activity and the deportation was was continuing. And, you

0:48:01 Thomas: You know people who got deported? Did you see that happen?

0:48:05 Abdi: I know both. I know people who have voluntarily came out and said, you know what? Enough is enough. Send me back to Somalia. Right. There was a war.

0:48:12 Thomas: Just from living in that kind of state of anxiety and fear?

0:48:16 Abdi: Right. Right? Want to do that. And so, and I also know a few people that were, were deported, you And because of that, and back in 2013, I know from the community back there that there are people who out from their apartments and never, you heard of again. We know what happened. You know, they could have been killed. And it was a pretty thing at the time. So in the middle of all of that, you know, imagine that the United States government or the State Department, the embassy staff really, you see the human side of all that. Don't know if I was if I was from Germany, for example, and a little white dude who had a high school diploma, I think it could have been a lot easier, honestly. Um it to me I realized there was a few more layers of me that I wanted to break through and only if only if I remember standing in the u .s embassy complex and thinking only if these americans known how much I enamored american pop culture right only only if they had really saw me moonwalking like marco jackson like how much I appreciated that

0:49:14 Thomas: I can't moonwalk. I think that should be part of the a test they should if you can do it they let you in

0:49:23 Matt: And terminator movies sure I'm

0:49:26 Abdi: I those Terminator movies, right? It's like someone who's already perfected the dance that you need or the movie dialogue from 90s and 80s. Think what I saw in the U .S. Embassy style was like another, they're probably thinking, I don't know, I'm making this up, but they might have been thinking another young man from Somalia who has no connections and, you wouldn't appreciate American culture. I don't know. You know, those were the things that really, that might have been going through their minds. Here I am. I'm the first one running around baking apple pies these days, right? I'm doing all kinds of things that some Americans even find too much, right?

0:49:57 Thomas: So

0:50:07 Abdi: There you go.

0:50:06 Matt: Terrible at skiing yeah uh is a great opportunity because I think that most americans and I can't say I know myself because then I've helped you know thousands of people with different visa things but uh it like to actually go in to talk to a consular officer and how many times did you actually speak with an officer

0:50:21 Abdi: My gosh. It's so scary. You mean at the embassy, right.

0:50:23 Matt: Right, but it's the consular section of the embassy.

0:50:24 Thomas: This is the the you're talking to the u .s embassy in kenya was it

0:50:28 Abdi: Yep. Yep. Well, first of all, you have to deal with all the Kenyan bodyguards, you know, with all all these rivals that they that they have. Right. And and, you got to know that you can't bring a cell phone, you know, and there's a long line more like the, you the same long line that you might find at your favorite breakfast place in New York, right, where people line up around the corner. Lining up for the U .S. Embassy was just like that. And in everybody's face, to me, it felt like everybody was praying. Nobody wanted to talk to nobody else. Nobody was really happy because it's a tense moment. And so what happens is go through that. They search you thoroughly, probably three times to make sure that you don't even have a single coin on you. They don't allow that. Then they give you a number. Say, for example, I was number 57. And call that number on one of those windows. It's like a drive -thru window, but it's not a drive through, right? You wake up and like, right. But there's someone in the back of that window who knows a lot about you because they already have your case, right, and so

0:51:20 Thomas: No kfc at the end of that window oh

0:51:29 Abdi: Let me tell you briefly about what happened to me. And because I went to the US Embassy a few times, one for my visa lottery and a couple more times trying the student visa, which didn't work out at all. A fingerprint and they make sure that you're the right person and ask for my full name. And then they ask you to sit down. Might not hear the conversation that's happening with other people, but I had seen other refugees rejected, right? Right. I could I people tearful. I could say people speechless. I could some really sad looking people. And it's like it was me thinking, oh, gosh, this is hell. The whole interview takes five minutes. And somehow they just tell you this huge disappointment. And then that one time I saw the Kenyan gentleman somehow who was whose visa was approved. It's like he really had this huge smile on his face. And I think that really really put everybody else's face at big smiles. Like I was thinking, I really, really hope I'm like that, you

0:52:28 Thomas: And it's impossible to know from your end what's going into

0:52:31 Abdi: Correct.

0:52:31 Thomas: That decision like it's really matt correct me if I'm wrong didn't we talk about this and this is pretty much you know like there's There's no real oversight of that. Like, like these people kind of, what

0:52:40 Matt: It's what they had for breakfast. It was what they had for the breakfast a lot of the time, just whatever mood they're in. And dealing with consulates is a lot more frustrating than dealing with immigration officers in the US, and that can be frustrating.

0:52:48 Thomas: Interesting.

0:52:50 Matt: They're so arbitrary.

0:52:51 Abdi: Really. It

0:52:52 Thomas: What happened when you Did do, you get the good, good news there? And you got to be that person smiling and no.

0:52:56 Abdi: Nope. Fact, I never got a good news right there at that window. So what, what the last day of the visa lottery was, you was an African-American woman who took up all my what I was called first. Number was called and I walked up to the window and somehow trying to to not show that was freaking out. Right. And it's very natural to really freak out because this this is decision making moment. And, you know, you're either going to the United States or not kind of moment. I still put up some smile and, you she said, all right, how's your day going? Right this uh chat isn't it's like oh it's going fine right

0:53:27 Thomas: It's entirely up to you how my day is going. I have no say in it. You tell me, how's my day going?

0:53:36 Abdi: Absolutely but thanks to the movies I've learned what uh what really means how's your day going you know they're you were going through hell and they know that they still they'll say how's it going you standing there and I was watching her she you knows she barely had an eye contact she was looking at my documents and she pulled up one paper and she said hey look at this it's not signed this is like it was one document in my pile of papers that I handed out probably 25 different papers and that was one of I started a university in Kenya and I got the transcripts, but it required a signature. And she said, well, you know, you have to get the signature. I can't make a decision in your case yet. So with that being said, I'm going to hand you this pink page. And this pink pitch, trust me, is so popular within every immigrant who has ever went to a U .S. embassy. See, the pink letter is always 60 % rejection, you % not sure, kind you know, the Pink Letter is called 221G. It's it usually tells you what they are rejecting you for or why they are not giving you the visa at that moment, right? And mine was like, something's missing, signature. And she somehow

0:53:42 Thomas: I mean, nothing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:54:45 Abdi: Wrote that handwritten transcript and I I remember standing there sort of speechless I was like uh you uh I come back I mean I can go get the signature but like she said no you don't really have to worry about coming back just get get that you know signature from the university you're going to and put it in an envelope and send it through dhl that was a courier place and then we're going to make a decision in your case. She also directed me to the online thing where I could check administrative processing. So that was the last day I was in an embassy. And walking out was quite a, I felt so heavy, right? I felt worried. I felt rejected. I felt uncertain. And that has been a little too much to deal with.

0:54:46 Thomas: From a transcript. Wow. Yeah,

0:55:30 Abdi: But anyways, I didn't have much time to waste. So I ran out and caught what we call in Kenya, Meta 2. It's like there's minibus everywhere and there's always a guy hanging on the side of the minibuss and he's the conductor. And so you can find it anywhere. It's not like the U .S. buses are all over the place there. And so I jumped into one and hopped off while it was still moving. And don't worry, that's very common. You it slows down, you Can always jump. You have to perfect it, by the way. So, yeah, I went to the college and got a signature. And they sent it to send it through dhl and I kept calling the embassy for three weeks and they kept saying you know we don't have your thing yet and it it had definitely arrived the same day but they didn't bother they checking um at all and you know you have no right to argue with them right on the phone they're always the bosses they were always the buses like I didn't really know how to even say can you just go back in that mail room or whatever you know just check it's

0:56:22 Abdi: Right there you know

0:56:22 Thomas: Americans at least are used to that but not with those kind of stakes. Like we we have that experience but it's not like oh if we piss someone off then we're you know gonna lose our chance to immigrate.

0:56:33 Abdi: That when I left the embassy and then said um have to get that signature going I think she has updated my case online already as an administrative processing it's like whatever that means you know I have no idea what administrative processing means but like they're checking you yep

0:56:47 Thomas: That when you first saw administrative processing or oh okay gotcha and so that was the reason that signature was the thing that the last thing you'd heard and then just you they just never until the journalists maybe them oh wow okay and how long was that period of time okay

0:56:52 Abdi: Shortly after that day yes correct correct absolutely uh was about three months, actually, yeah easy right you know when

0:57:03 Thomas: Yeah so when it updated online, finally, then what, what's the process after that? Right. What are you being sarcastic? Are you using some signature American

0:57:13 Abdi: I'm not no seriously this This was really pretty easy. So when processing turned into issue, that meant the visa was available. I couldn't go back to the embassy. So the embassy had to send the by the way, I'm from Somalia. So there Somali passport at the time. In fact, if you check the U.S. State Department, it will always tell you that none of the Somali documents are accepted by the U.S. government. I mean, no Somali passport. So what they do is they issue the visa, not on a passport, but on a piece of paper, right? Day when the visa was issued, I went up to DHL and it was right there, my face and the visa and all the details with it. And then I connected with my sponsor family here in Maine and they said, hey, let's not wait. Go Let's ahead and book you a flight from kenya to boston it was the happiest thing in my entire life like the happiest conversation I was ever involved you know and and they were like uh remember them saying do you prefer Lufthansa or do you prefer uh they were they were just running down a list of airplanes and and I remember saying even if it's a donkey get me get out of here yeah

0:58:22 Thomas: Sarcasm? Oh gosh. That must've been,

0:58:24 Abdi: See

0:58:24 Thomas: How do you answer that? Yeah. Do you have a preferred airline? Do you like a economy economy plus? Yeah, what are you?

0:58:30 Abdi: Exactly. I have no idea what they're talking about. I was like, well, get me out of here, even if it's like a little motorcycle or something. I didn't have that privilege to decide. But anyway, so they decided on my behalf, they went ahead and booked Ethiopian Airlines from Kenya to Frankfurt, Germany, and then Lufthansa from Frankfurt, Germania to Boston, Massachusetts. And that was the um it was 21 hour flight from from kenya from kenyan to yeah a little stop in in frankfurt germany but like there was an american woman on I had a window seat on the lufthansa and um don't know how americans get bored on the flights and they they take a nap and they're always like I can't wait to get home you know I was so glued to the window I couldn't wait for the side of boston like I I to me it just felt like going to mars right literally and know and then you know americans like to start conversation and you know this one was like where do you live in the u .s and it's like I know I mean I don't live in the U

0:58:54 Thomas: It's a long one. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, find out.

0:59:27 Abdi: .S. right AND Like, I don't know where I live. I mean, I was in Kenya as a refugee. And, you know, I'm telling whole story. And she is from Watertown, Massachusetts, right? I am talking about, like, I can't wait to see America, right, that it's just me saying. And nobody has ever said that to her. Know how like when you're cruising over the atlantic ocean and like somehow boston or some land of america or maybe somewhere in you of canada before you get to boston something appears and like you see you see the land and then you seethe lights and if it's night it's already like shiny right this this type of views like she was so used to and then she thought it was so much fun like chatting about like she she wasn't bored anymore she's like so you're gonna love it like you should try she was trying to tell me what to eat you know and and a long list of things like um would you know I would recommend your first american food mac and cheese lobster some you know this and that and I was like I have no idea what you're talking about but I can't wait to have you know to have a try you

1:00:27 Abdi: Know of them and then obviously the first time in the u .s you know you sit with an officer in a separate room and they very common they interview you again and they did that to me in a in a room before they said welcome to america right then my yeah sponsor family uh were waiting with a little honda uh at the parking lot in boston at the airport in bosten and remember cruising between boston and new hampshire and into maine I mean it gets gets darker and darker as you come north and I remember saying wait a minute we've been driving for more than an hour first of all and it's all dark where is the america right like why why are we not seeing all those things that arnold showed me in the movies like what happening and so I didn't know we were really uh was going to stay in a farmhouse thousand deep Yarmouth in the woods, dark road. And there I was, I

1:01:19 Thomas: So We're going to have to pause here for part one. This went very long, but it was so worth it. Two is going to be Wednesday's episode, along with Thomas takes the bar exam. We'll still be there. Don't worry. Please support the show, patreon.com/law, and we'll see you for part two interview Abdi and Thomas takes the bar exam next episode.

1:01:36 Clip: This podcast is a production of Opening Arguments Media, LLC, All Rights Reserved. It is produced and edited by Thomas Smith, who also provided the fabulous intro and outro music used with permission.

1:01:53 Abdi: Even if it's a donkey get me get out of here yeah