DOD169: Putting the Man in Manners

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad. That's my thing. I know now what I can offer you that no one else can. Complete and utter dependence. I'm a man. I'm sensitive. I need to feel loved. I need to be desired.

0:00:22 Clip: Telling is the only part of being a father that I enjoy.

0:00:28 Tom: To Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's pleased to thank you. I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:38 Thomas: It's the pegging episode. No, I don't know.

0:00:42 Eli: Finally it makes sense it's all coming together hey

0:00:46 Tom: Was like on the dad's page on facebook somebody said hey what do we have to have for the patreon level for a pegging episode and I don't know what they want out of that pegging episode, but I can tell you they can't afford it.

0:00:58 Eli: Facebook enjoyer which of the three of us do you think is gonna have anything to say about pay if you want me to do a solo you want want my blog back that because that just sounds like you want me to do my blog bag that's

0:01:09 Thomas: I do want your... Is this how we get your blog back?

0:01:12 Eli: Right patreon oh remember when uh your business got stolen and you had a nervous breakdown so tom read his blog I'll read my pegging blog for our next vacation it'll be the hey everybody come on down to grandpa's pegging house okay

0:01:17 Thomas: I think that would sell really well yeah

0:01:29 Tom: Grandpa's Pegging House? Wait, what the fuck? We can't just let that go.

0:01:32 Eli: Guys don't go to grandpa can I

0:01:36 Tom: That can't just be a song.

0:01:32 Thomas: Yeah I I admit I was kind of spacing on that as

0:01:38 Tom: You cannot have a song about Grandpa's Pegging House and then we transition our family show to anything else without at least calling that out.

0:01:38 Eli: Sound like the state you sound like the social services is what you sound like now tom here's my here's my quick pegging advice all right uh the size of what you think it is quadruple the lube of what you need all right half the size quadrupole the lume

0:02:01 Thomas: Well just fill your rectum with lube first like in the entire and until until the lube is leaking out then you're ready to go yep

0:02:04 Eli: I mean, maybe, I don't know if you're, yeah, you know, there's a, you can't do too much lube, get a lube proof situation going for your room if that's what you want to do. But guys, do you know the only thing worse than lubeless anal penetration? Why? It's the auto-ads. Yes. The uncareful lover of the podcasting world, auto ads bursting into your ears at a variety of volumes that we do not control or set. That I assure you for if we did you wouldn't hear them at all but there is one way around one simple trick that lets you hack the system over at patreon.com/dearolddads where for as little as a dollar you'll get access to an extended commercial-free version of every single show we got a little parenting story on the end of every episode last week tom told us all about his halloween him Him and Eamon, braving the cold, collecting how much candy? Well, head over to patreon.com/dearolddads to find out. Patreon.com/dearolddads. Rip into it.

0:03:06 Thomas: Who

0:03:09 Tom: All so I wanted to talk today I'm curious where you guys are at with the idea of politeness and the value of teaching your kids politeness so I is something that's on my mind um it's on on my mind as a parent all the time um teaching kids politeness and and why I think personally like politeness is way undervalued um time is going on I think that there's a trend toward devaluing politeness which I don't agree with um curious what your thoughts there are um and what you're like as you'RE raising little people particularly like because your kids are a lot younger than mine like how you think about that like what what pieces are are important what pieces aren't important about being polite and teaching them to be polite

0:03:18 Thomas: The fuck's asking oh yeah oh

0:03:21 Eli: Not a fan. Yeah, it's interesting because in some ways it's good and in some ways it'S not right because a lot of the things that were considered politeness when we were kids is just shittiness of adults.

0:04:08 Thomas: Yeah like let let your uncle hug you too long.

0:04:11 Eli: Right let your uncle let your grandma kiss you on the fucking lips with an open mouth if she wants to the fucking call certain people sir thing I don't know if you had one of those in your life I had a friend who was a was a sir guy and he'd be like you can call me sir and I was like nah it's 1980 something and he was like america and I was like yeah I know you should probably kill yourself in your garage and he did so win for everybody right so that's that the bad part right and I think our generation is sort of largely reversed that trend but there is a casualness with which children talk to each other and us now that we're not jerks anymore that I agree is not awesome I I teach at the high school level sometimes and I never externalize this I've never externalized it but sometimes my kids walk in and they're like what's up, dude? And I'm like, don't call me dude, you

0:04:18 Thomas: Gross. Oh yeah. Fuck that. Dear God. Yeah.

0:05:07 Eli: Little piece of shit. I 2016 while you were an infant for you to call me bro, okay?

0:05:15 Thomas: Yeah.

0:05:15 Eli: Just keep it fucking normal. So yeah, I do agree that there is a line there, and I'm interested to hear where yours is, Todd. Because my answer to that is sort of probably the laziest, which is I'm, like, I don't like it, but I'm probably wrong so I'm just gonna go to just gonna eat these skittles on this shelf that my tummy makes underneath my tits

0:05:32 Thomas: That's no really. Oh wow. So I that's, I'm curious about that. Cause if I, right I didn't know how I felt about this. I haven't really thought too much about it. Right. When you put me in that hypothetical, I am like, Oh, well no, that's detention or whatever like that. You can't, you can't come in and say call the teacher hey bro what's up dude like what come that's not no is that how it is now yeah

0:05:57 Tom: Like I'm I'm years I think older than you guys which is about 3 000 years in in real terms but like when I grew up adults were always mr or Mrs. A hundred Mr. Mrs. And the last name, the full last name. Well, no, but that's so that nobody does that anymore.

0:06:08 Eli: Of course I

0:06:11 Thomas: That's current times what

0:06:11 Eli: Know nobody does it anymore it's fucking bizarre

0:06:14 Tom: So then there was like a, then there Was a trend toward Mr. Or Mrs. First name. That became a thing for about 35 seconds. And now everybody's what's up, dude. And there's none of the, any of that at all at all.

0:06:26 Eli: Also can I get on an old man horse for just a second to talk about the kids so the kid prank and I don't know if this was our prank and I don't just remember they make sex noises and sex jokes that I get because I'm an adult who's had sex and they like think they're fooling me one of the teachers in my school I can't believe I had to have this fucking conversation she was like one of them called me a hock to a girl what do we do and I was like they're fucking in trouble they mean blowjob I had tell a group of adults in button down shirts they mean blojobs and they were like I don't understand and I was like you know when you spit on a cock before you suck it what are we doing jesus we're all 40 we're all 40. we've at least seen someone spit or pretend and that's the thing right maybe this is just a teacher thing and I'm totally irrelevant but we've all like we're all adults adults and teachers are like I don't know a blow job you

0:07:01 Thomas: My god God. Yeah. Yeah,

0:07:25 Eli: Say is that like a balloon I'm like relax the kids in my room last year two years ago they They were going, ah, they were like making a sex noise to like make each other laugh. And I was like, hey, don't do that. And they were, like, why? What's wrong with it? And I, was, like. It's a sex noise. And they were like, ah-ha-ha. And I was like, now you're in trouble. Like, that was it. It was that. That's all I had to do. So I was like.

0:07:26 Thomas: What the fuck is that? Yeah, yeah.

0:07:45 Eli: I know, what you're doing. Stop. And they were, like. All right. He's cracked the code. There's a word. There's, a leak.

0:07:47 Thomas: My god. I I'm realizing, I could, I can't be a teacher, or I need to have full authoritarian control over the punishment system of the, yeah, yeah

0:07:58 Eli: I'm ,a, pretty, cool teacher. But I also. Get the fuck out of my classroom right now. I'm like, I have no time for any of that.

0:08:06 Thomas: That's how I would be. Because like I can, first off I can stand any lying. So any pretending that you didn't, I'd be like no fuck you and get out of my class for the rest of your life oh why why can't I do that you don't fucking yeah I know you know what you're talking about you fucking asshole what are you talking about and just do this and then they get away with it do we live in a society still am I gonna

0:08:24 Eli: They get

0:08:24 Tom: They get away with it

0:08:25 Eli: Away with it all the time. And God, it's so funny.

0:08:27 Thomas: So I'm gonna be be a fucking it's over for me.

0:08:28 Tom: It's it's fucking anarchy out there

0:08:31 Eli: When you said detention, I, it took all of me not to laugh because you can't just be like, you have detention anymore. You have to write a little book report on how they hurt your feelings by calling you a hawk to a girl. And then that goes to an underpaid Republican republican who wanted to be mayor but settled for principal and they look at it with the glazed eyes of a man having an affair with a 19 year old and they send it back to you being like they can't get in trouble because their parents will call and that is I cannot emphasize enough the end of it and I work in really nice schools let have a friend who got punched in the face by a student this year at one of her schools and and she was like cool so that kid's It's not my class anymore. And they were like, well, he's got to learn math. And she was like, maybe not here. And they Were like, no, that wouldn't be good for him to move. We would hate to disturb his learning process. So if he punches you in the face again, just let us know. And we will continue

0:08:35 Thomas: What? Wow. Nah,

0:09:24 Eli: To do nothing.

0:09:24 Thomas: I don't accept this. This can't be reality. I'm sorry. Subscribed to something called PragerU for some reason. My hand involuntarily did it. I don' t.

0:09:33 Eli: Wish, I wish these were extreme examples. My kids are good kids.

0:09:39 Tom: But like with little kids are you guys teaching please and thank you okay thomas

0:09:45 Thomas: Oh, I'm so far away from that mindset right now, just conversation-wise. I need to solve who I'm voting for next time out of this. I'm trying to strategize now in the teaching job I don't have and will never have it's important to emphasize that how I'm gonna manage this like I'm already like that's the mode I'm in you know and I'm wondering can you just make their lives hell in ways that aren't disciplinary you know like can it be like oh you're gonna do that bullshit okay well here we're just fucking you're just writing a book report today for no reason

0:10:17 Tom: Terrifying thing about teaching because I've done this in the high school level when I was doing the student teaching because that's what I went to school to do so um I did my student teaching it was

0:10:25 Thomas: But that was two decades ago tom at least

0:10:27 Tom: Two decades ago but I learned something really important

0:10:28 Eli: Everyone put away your t89 calculators they're coming for your fluids hadn't

0:10:33 Tom: I I learned that you have literally no actual power or authority that matters I there and like There was this moment where this kid, I was walking. I had a class with only four kids in it because they were taking a remedial English class. They had to pass this class in order to graduate. I had really wild kind doing my student teaching. So these four kids, they sat at four different ends of the classroom because they had some behavioral problems. So they were posted up in the corners of this great big room. And we're going to the library, which I think we fucking called a learning center or some stupid bullshit. It was a library. So we're Going to the Library. And this kid he's a senior he's a fucking senior means he's a 17 year old kid we're walking there's a total of five of us me four kids we're walking and he just decides that he's just not going to walk he's going to stand in the hallway and not walk forward anymore and then I as the teacher realized how incredibly stuck I was because I've got these other people that I want to take to the library to do the learning stuff I have planned. I can't grab this kid and throw him over my shoulder. There's not a fucking walkie talkie to call for backup or anything.

0:11:46 Tom: I'm just stuck in the hallway with an asshole who is just like, I'm going to be disruptive. And that was the moment I realized that like, he does not care about the consequences because they're going to be post hoc consequences. So I was just like my brain melted and I died and I decided not to teach.

0:11:45 Eli: Been invented yet yeah mm -hmm can't

0:11:49 Thomas: The fuck oh I couldn't I couldn'T do this how

0:12:04 Tom: I mean, it was a little more than that, but you can't touch these kids. You can't touch them.

0:12:09 Eli: Touch them

0:12:04 Thomas: Did you not just push him out of the way oh I disagree I think you could actually I think YOU could lightly push him out of THE WAY and then maybe there's consequences but those are post -hoc anyway whatever you just said yeah

0:12:21 Tom: So the kids, the problem is the kids have realized how powerless you are also. So actually does get to the to the real subject of politeness, because when you're teaching kids to be polite, light, especially as they get older. I think there's a really stupid idea that gets floated around. And I see it all the time in all kinds of different circles, right? Where people will be like, ah, that's just a social construct. And that's a way for people to be really dismissive of pretty much the most important things that you can possibly learn.

0:12:46 Eli: Everything's a social construct yeah

0:12:48 Thomas: Money is a social construct yeah

0:12:53 Tom: Yeah. Laws are a social concept, but you've heard the same thing, right. Everybody's heard it.

0:12:53 Eli: Everything's a social constraint oh

0:12:57 Tom: Oh, that'S just a a social construct and it's a way to be dismissive of the parts of the world you don't want to engage in and that's stupid

0:12:57 Eli: Girl yeah

0:12:54 Thomas: For sure yeah yeah yeah while keeping the rest of the parts yeah

0:13:06 Tom: Well keeping all the rest but it's libertarianism right it's like I'm going to drive on the roads you know that I don't you know it's all it's fucking nonsense and it'S for small -minded dipshits right it'S a stupid fucking thing to say but you hear it all the time you hear constantly no

0:13:12 Thomas: For sure can you verbally abuse the kids is that no fuck Fuck.

0:13:20 Tom: You can't do anything good you can'T the thing is like to eli's point To sometimes you can't even discipline them meaningfully. But like when you're teaching kids, you have to teach them. You're trying to teach him the value of politeness without being able to sort of not being able TO but without knowing that like punishments are not the answer. Right. So they have to understand a different set of reasons why politeness has value in their world and in their life. And if it's something that you value because you think that it will get them like I do, I value politeness a lot. I value manners and politeness, a lot, it's really important. And have I good reasons why. But like, we're moving into a society, I think, more and more, that is moving further and further away from like, really valuing those same things. Things so I I am curious like just with parents of little kids please and thank you I think are the foundational elements for manners and politeness are those things you guys value and teach right

0:13:23 Thomas: I don't think I'm going to get over this. Yeah, I think so.

0:14:21 Eli: We do a lot of please and thank you we do a lot of um tiger is pretty fucking on the money as far as like what real manners are because daniel targer fucking gets it right so it's like when you do something bad it's like you say you're sorry and then you ask how can I help like a lot of that emotional social learning shit is spot is on and it's a lot of it is in little kid shit these days which I really love um has a really good sense of like empathy and doing things because you care about like politeness because you care about other people doing

0:14:49 Thomas: Not because it's like authoritarian rules.

0:14:51 Eli: Not because it's like the rules with

0:14:52 Tom: That's what I was trying to get at

0:14:53 Eli: The capital R. Yeah, and it fucking rules. I mean all that I hate to say this is going to sound like such a lazy answer but like smarter genuinely than me and people who are genuinely empathic as opposed to just goblins who have been pointed in the right direction like myself have made content and I just repeat what what they say right because honestly if you were like all right Eli there's no Daniel Tiger there's no Bluey teach your kid politeness I'd be like if you eat food on others plates they cry which can over salt the food so obviously there are downsides daddy makes money being cruel don't

0:14:59 Thomas: For sure. TV will be my parent. Yeah

0:15:31 Tom: I feel

0:15:32 Eli: Do that unless you can make money and then do that do it better than daddy maybe a little meaner daddy Daddy feels like he's gotten soft last couple of years, right? So like, truly, like there are just other people guiding that. And my wife is, and I know, I feel like every time we ask this question, I'm always like, my wife isn't amazing, but my wife was amazing. Like Anna is a really good bullshit detector because I'm like, I've rejected society in the cool way that white upper middle class men have decided to all universally do. But she's like an empath who cares about other people in the world. So she is a really good informant on like what is real and what is bullshit right because I'll be like he she should call everyone sir and she's like nah it's not real and I'm like no pooping in his hands and she was like yep that's a good one all right good I got it

0:16:23 Tom: Feel feel like when we were kids, manners were taught, like politeness and manners were taught as a way to sort of enforce a kind of hierarchy, like a social hierarchy, and that they were also taught as way to avoid making other people mad. And I do disagree with that stuff, right? I think that's the call your dad, sir, stuff. Like, that's not kind of what I'm talking about. I thinkthat's how we grew up, though. I grew up with the idea that like you're polite and manners are important because if you don't behave in these ways other people will get angry with you right

0:16:56 Eli: A full -grown man will yell at you who you I can't emphasize this enough don't know like dad right like the first time that happened I was like oh I don't call my parents sir he yelled at me in his loud voice now here's the crazy thing he survived that because I tell you what I tell YOU WHAT if one of my dad friends ever yelled at Max for that I'd be like hey we're gonna have a fist fight do you want to pick a day and a time but we could also do it right now here in your kitchen I'm gonna eat your M &M's afterwards as a sort of victory dance

0:17:25 Thomas: Well that's an interesting contradiction so or potential like thing to look at attention there because I have the same thing if anyone just yelled at my kid I'd murder them but like is the issue though like is that maybe that's part of it like if we're all just as it

0:17:44 Eli: Fine with them yelling at my kid when he does wrong stuff like we're a dad I have a group of dad friends and our kids hang out all the time and they now are like hey max buddy and I'm like fucking get in there man get him get him in a headlock he's got a weak left hook but it's not the yelling it's that an adult very clearly lost control of his temper at me a child over an invisible thing over a thing he made up

0:18:08 Thomas: They want to be worshipped and called called a deity or whatever that's nonsense yeah

0:18:13 Tom: I don't know like how I feel about the respect your elders sort of like principle I entirely dismiss it um

0:18:16 Thomas: That's yeah I don't care I pretty much entirely dismiss it because they're all trump voters now like do you want do you wanna picture a boomer in a trump shirt

0:18:22 Tom: DON'T entirely Dismiss it yeah

0:18:25 Eli: Maybe that phrase came out before the elders destroyed the housing market well it's actually it's interesting because I notice a little of that in my students right jokes aside like I am very good when a kid is going through something emotionally because one I'm at a drama school so I fucking get it kid but also like I I am able to connect to them on ways that a lot of my colleagues are not. And so a couple of years ago, one of my students was was having a hard time. And I was like, hey, like, stay back a bit. Like, I want to talk to you. I'm a call ahead and make sure you don't get in trouble for being late to your next class.

0:18:31 Thomas: Lost all dessert of respect yeah and then you flip the chair backwards

0:19:02 Eli: But like, let's talk because

0:19:02 Thomas: And you sit in it it super cool.

0:19:04 Eli: Was doing that thing that kids and Tom do where they're seething, but they don't think anyone can tell.

0:19:09 Tom: Can't tell that I'm mad eli

0:19:11 Eli: And like it was perfectly non -disruptive, but I could tell he's having a heart attack. Time we were talking about it anyway I'm very clearly dealing with like I never want to diagnose a kid but like early depressive thoughts right one of them was like I'm not going to be able to afford a house when I grew up and this was the first time that I was in the position the official position of the elders and so first thing I did I was like fuck that's reagan not me okay I was already destroyed when I got here telling me but the other thing is like and and this is what what I think is relevant to this right to this conversation about our relationships is I think something that we can bring to this that our parents did not is empathy is like hey I understand what it feels like to be angry at the older generation and there are people in my generation who have treated you badly and betrayed you yeah I see this with my college students a lot who have just finished four years of drama school and dealt with a bunch of egomaniacs and cult leaders and then I treat them like human beings and they're like oh shit should my acting teachers have not had treating me this way and I'm like yeah no they shouldn't but like you have to meet them where they are and talk about that as colleagues without shitting on your colleagues right because you can't turn around and be like yeah mrs mahoney really is a piece of shit isn't

0:20:24 Eli: She right like you can right

0:20:23 Thomas: Once again, reasons I could not be a teacher, I guess, because I would do that.

0:20:26 Eli: Here's the thing here come on down the hall with me I'll tell him he's an asshole hey man you're an asshole mr mahoney we were talking about what an asshole you that yeah

0:20:30 Thomas: I would probably do that. Yeah, I want to get a teaching position now just so I can get fired. Can I do that? I think.

0:20:39 Tom: So so you can lose the job

0:20:41 Thomas: Yeah well, I'm going to test it. Social experiment.

0:20:41 Tom: Right away

0:20:40 Eli: Thomas anything I can do any human can do that's you're

0:20:45 Thomas: Social experiment. This will be important cultural work. Like I'll be like, you know, I am going to go go undercover as a teacher and see if you can actually discipline these kids into not being pieces of shit. And then either I'll get fired and it's like, yeah, we're fucked vote Trump or something. I don't know. Or, or it'll be like, no, you can do it. It's all just in, the invisible clothes. I dunno. It was something, it was like, we, we actually can do it. And we're all just too afraid.

0:21:10 Eli: Not supposed to make your kids wear invisible clothes thomas you're fired already but

0:21:13 Tom: See will say to eli like I approach manners and politeness and teaching that stuff for the the kids, not at all from an empathy standpoint though. Like I just, it's like, never been the approach that I've taken. It's I've always approached it from a, you what's in it for you. There's a lot in it. For you.

0:21:29 Thomas: Like a sociopath. I get it. No, I'm just kidding.

0:21:31 Tom: Like you will get ahead. Yeah, exactly. Like kids are sociopaths. Like, one thing that I think is, is incredibly true is that the real value of these things is that when you have, when you're you're polite when you have good manners you make other people around you comfortable that is the point of all of that stuff and in doing that there are rewards for you to gain there are things for you to reap from that other people will like you better you will build better friendships you you will will get a lot out of acting in polite ways rather than impolite ways you'll get more rewards you'll will call on you more they'll have you pass shit out out in class that you'll get a lot more out of being the polite person than you will out of being the impolite person and as time goes on like your relationships will be better you'll have relationships with better quality other people if you're polite like you sort of like move through this sort of like like from like please and thank you which are like generally like little kid manners into being polite in in more complicated ways and more in socially complex ways and navigating that for me, all of that stuff, like when I teach it to the kids is about teaching them like, Hey, there's a real pragmatic reason why being

0:22:46 Tom: Polite gets you something you want. You you better relationships with better quality people that will help you because you are better to them. So I think there's like actually different approaches that you can take with it that, that yield different results.

0:22:46 Thomas: Interesting this interesting yeah and mine would pretty much entirely be based on like well like when my kids don't do something like that it's usually like hey you know uh mom made you really good dinner you should probably like you know thank her for that it is based in reasons it's not based in like or

0:23:14 Eli: What if mom made a disgusting breakfast

0:23:17 Thomas: Your mom yeah then you tell them to fuck Fuck off. Yeah. Tell your mom she made disgusting breakfast. Realizing mine is more centered, I guess, in the like, you here's why this person should be thanked or here's why we should say please to this. Like it is more that stuff. And I'm wondering here's my thought, Tom. Wonder if if if you're teaching it more as a rules based thing that's like this will benefit you in a way. Is there a risk that they will apply it to the wrong people because like I'm thinking if if my reasoning is more on like hey why does this person kind of deserve your respect in good manners maybe if there's I don't know a piece of shit person who doesn't deserve it then they won't automatically be like deferential to that piece of person who does not deserve it well that's what I'm getting at is this might be part of that I don t know because

0:23:57 Eli: Yeah and how do you teach them the difference right because generally right want to teach max like listen to adults right most of the adults in your life really really care about you and want you to be be well. And when they tell you something's an emergency, you should listen. And when they tells you what to do, you should probably do it because they care about you and they care about your safety. But there's also adults out there who think the Jews use space lasers to start fires in California. And I won't always be there to be like, that's one of them. Right?

0:24:29 Tom: Yeah.

0:24:29 Eli: So like, how do you, how do you teach kids discernment?

0:24:32 Thomas: Well

0:24:31 Tom: Well, I don't want to teach kids to be deferential though. Like, I wouldn't think that, in my mind, that's not the same thing as manners or being polite, right? So, like being deferential is not necessarily the same things.

0:24:43 Thomas: Or polite if you're polite to someone who's potentially bad or threatening are you are you yeah no there is like if youRE you'RE feeling pressured into being polite to someone WHO is potentially a bad or dangerous person I guess is my thinking but

0:24:47 Tom: So, well, yeah. So, there's no harm in that, right. So you, I, don't understand that. Help me understand that, like how would be, look, maybe we don't, maybe, we're not talking about what polite is the same way. Can't think of a circumstance where like that is a thing. I don't, I don'T understand that genuinely.

0:25:13 Eli: Yeah, people like, you know, luring people into play, say, Hey, you have to help me with this. I need you to do this um what I think we're missed on is the definitions

0:25:15 Thomas: People learn yeah it'S

0:25:19 Tom: I DON'T think of that. Okay. So that, that's what I think of like, okay, let's, that'S where we're missing each other on what polite is. Like polite is not, the so same thing as like just doing whatever anybody asks you to do.

0:25:25 Eli: As obedience right yeah so

0:25:29 Tom: Oh polite and obedience are not the same. So a, thatS a really good distinction to draw. Polite is following a series of social clues and social cues and rules that we we all agree on. Polite is stuff like you're going to say thank you when somebody does something. You're going notice when people go out of their way. You're not going expect people to do things for you. You'll say please. Many, many more social around politeness that are not obedience related. I do not want to raise obedient kids.

0:25:59 Thomas: it'S not obedient I I think I think yeah I think you'RE kind of drawing a line that's too easily like don't think in practice it's that simple personally well

0:26:01 Tom: So give well so help me understand though I'm I'm willing to concede the point if I understand it

0:26:11 Thomas: Part of being polite might be helping out someone uh appears to need it or just or shutting someone down who maybe ought to be shut down in a way you know what I mean like I could see I could see that bleeding into that a little bit it's hard to come up with a specific example but like say if a stranger is showing you attention in a slightly negative way that shouldn't be happening we'll say um if you top politeness in a rules based more authoritarian manner I feel like that's going to be more of an issue I'm not not saying it's always but like yeah

0:26:39 Tom: 100 I agree with that yeah I I don' t advocate that at all I do not advocate teaching them as a series of authoritarian rules I and that's why I think teaching kids especially as they start to get older you know little kids it's just a rule please thank you these are really basic things right like push in your chair when you're done with dinner that kind kind of shit right but as kids get a little bit older and you start to explain to them that like hey look all of these rules are advantageous for you to follow if I'm then in a situation where somebody's being a shit to me I can see immediately that there's no advantage for me in maintaining a level of politeness I'm not going to gain anything from doing that So my rule or my theory of teaching politeness and manners as a way to advance yourself socially and to make social connections, it works great when people are assholes. It works better than everything else, actually, because it's not a series of hard and fast rules so much as it's a series of hey these are the ways that we've decided that we're all going to get along with one another but if somebody's trying not to get alone with me they can go fuck themselves sideways it doesn't matter to me like now I can very easily punt because I'm not working within a rules structure I'm working within a structure of hey society is a way for us all to get long if this guy doesn't want to get along all right I don't have to play nice yeah

0:28:06 Eli: How have you passed I guess my question is because I agree and I love that because I was very much taught politeness is obedience right so my question ist how do you pass that along to your kids as someone who I I think like me didn't get to experience it. Like, how do you, how do your kids, how do prepare your kids for that new paradigm? If I can use a pompous word of politeness so that they understand when someone is due politeness and when someone's not. And the difference between those two things, like how have you managed to pass that along to you? Cause your kids are polite. Your kids are awesome as fuck in the couple.

0:28:38 Tom: Themost part yeah yeah I I don't think that they're all as polite as, as I would like them to be. I will say my kids are not obedient or deferential. Like, they are certainly not that, you

0:28:48 Eli: Donovan doesn't even tell you when he comes home. It's fine. Fucking hotel Curry over here.

0:28:51 Tom: You know that is not something that we value in our house is to be either obedient or deferential so you are polite for sure but they'll politely say no. So you teach them them how to politely turn things down that they don't want to do, right? So you give them tools to do that. And you have it by conversation and by example. To polinely ask a question. If they're asked to do something, they can politely ask why. They can polinely argue the point. Some of it's about emotional regulation. That's part of politeness is not losing your temper and not treating people poorly or flippantly or not expecting things from people that you don't have a right to expect, not expecting to be treated better than you treat other people. And a lot of that is just having those really blatant conversations. And then when people fail to be polite, having a conversation with them too is like, hey, if behave like that, people are not going to like you. It is going to be harder for you to make friends. It's going to to be harder for you to find a girlfriend. It is going to be harder for me to find somebody that wants to tolerate not being asked nicely for things.

0:29:58 Tom: So if you want to make connections with other people, I used to say this, like as the kids are 10, 11, 12, you know, if you wanna make connections with other that matter, you're gonna have to be more polite about it. And you can just say it to them and call them out like in, not call them in a mean way, but call them out in an explanatory way. Like, hey, nobody likes being spoken to like that everybody likes that being asked nicely it's going to be harder for you to make friends it's gonna be harder people to want to spend time with you and I think that that kind of like process moves it away from that like you were saying Thomas that authoritarian nonsense these like follow the rules build a higher that's trash but like if they understand like hey there's something in this for me then I think it goes a really long way right

0:30:42 Eli: Remember something that Thomas said on an early episode of our show, and I hope it made the cut, but like, I remember Thomas was talking about talking to Phoebe once and she had done something he didn't like, or said something he didn't, like, and he said like, you know, Phoebe, when you do that, like people don't want to do these things for you. And that was such a revelation for me. Right. Don't do that was so the mindset I had been brought up in, right. Is that there was right and wrong. But for the way that Thomas at Phoebe's level described the consequences of bad behavior without it being him. Right. Because what we either got was these hardcore rules that are graven in stone and you follow them or you don't. And there are consequences or you're breaking your mother's heart. Don't you see that you're braking your mother? Oh, your mother'S heart is broken in two, which is also not OK. You can't tell your kids your mom's heart is broken in two because you're going through natural growing up things. So I think about that quite a bit when I correct Max, especially now because he is back in his hitting phase a little bit. Just the last couple of days or so, he has decided to revisit the hitting. And really, very, very hard for me to stay calm and gentle

0:31:52 Eli: In those moments and not talk about my own emotions, not talk about my own feelings especially because my impulse you're

0:31:52 Thomas: Yeah it is I picture you saying you're breaking my going into that voice but it's about you yeah

0:32:01 Eli: Breaking my heart yeah my son what have you done but like truly like I I a lot of violent impulse because I'm a naturally violent person I have never hit max I never will not in a million years but like I'll tell you 100 true like the other day I was carrying him we're doing some calm thing we're calming down right right? And we're talking about it. And he just like double fists me in both sides of my head.

0:32:26 Thomas: It's hard to it's hard to deal with that

0:32:27 Eli: There is a blinding second where 100 % of my brain was like, punch this kid in the face. And I, of course I did not. Right. But what I did do was freeze in that moment. And so, yeah, I really try to use the that you have talked about on the show and the examples you have set with your older kids kids um those moments to sort of figure out what to do because man it is it is rough yeah

0:32:49 Thomas: That first reaction is so tough when when when a kid is doing something something that physically hurts or something like it is, it's hard to do that perfectly because it's such a switch, like a quick twitch decision or not even a decision.

0:33:05 Eli: And like hey I'm over I love you and you're doing like the worst thing to me you're physically hurting me and it'slike oh it's tough and I I anna's again so lucky to have her anna sort of noticed how upset I was and was like tap out and we eventually tapped in so that I I could like, honestly get over it.

0:33:24 Tom: You got to put yourself in a timeout.

0:33:26 Eli: I genuinely was like upset about it and realized like, Hey, it's not helpful for him for me to like pout about this interaction that we had. Right? He's got to be encouraged and move forward with positivity and all that kind of stuff. Like I did all the right things in the moment, but now I got to go get over it so I can be a parent. I think about, um, I was Jewish way back in the Dizzee, um read this uh there's like a a commentary that's all about parenthood right those of you who didn't grow up uh judaism uh the jewish holy books are living documents they're not the word of god at any point they're just like everyone like takes a turn and does whole things and there's one guy who was like what if it's about parenting um

0:33:34 Tom: Yeah

0:34:06 Eli: So he literally his whole thing is like you think about it the flood is like a flood of tears when your children die am I right yeah bye bye bye right so I remember really liking that because one of the things that he talked about he's not anti -corporal punishment that would fucking rule but one of the things he talked in that commentary that modern rabbis have picked up on is he was like hey you can't punish your kids when you're mad right like if you're mad when you are punishing your kids you're not making the most reasonable decision so you gotta like go calm down and come back and I really take of all the things of Judaism I've left behind and obviously that's an entirely secular thing it's not like and god said to moses on the mountain take

0:34:44 Thomas: I'm an atheist, so I'm not allowed to do that. I have to be, I have to be mad

0:34:45 Eli: Deep breaths right yeah I have to punch my kid yeah um like I I have really taken that with me and I try to continue to by it yeah

0:34:54 Thomas: That's good advice yeah

0:34:55 Tom: I think like like embedded in that is is the idea, too, that you can't expect to teach emotional regulation from a dysregulated space yourself. It's just it's literally not a possible thing because the kids will see right through it they'll they're going to notice right away that like this is bullshit right so it's like it's why like angry people often beget other angry people you know it's Why these these have a tendency to repeat even though like a lot of times like what people will be disciplining somebody else for is exactly the emotional regulation imbalance that they are experiencing themselves right so It's like you you can see the kids will understand and build tools that see like right through that stuff. Right. And I think the same is true when it comes to like behaviors around politeness and, and manners. I remember having a conversation with one of my closest friends. I, my, my buddy that I've known now for almost 30 years, one of them, probably my second and closest friend of all time and like we were joking about like you know we were we were joking about this very topic together and I was like we're incredibly polite to each other like I'm always I would always say 30 years I've known this guy it's always pleased it's it's never a moment it's not pardon me if I squeeze past them all that stuff and we talked about he's like yeah why would I ever be less polite to someone I care about and really strong tendency but there's but this is like this is unusual

0:35:56 Eli: Me everybody god

0:35:56 Thomas: What

0:36:25 Tom: I think the

0:36:25 Eli: Thomas don't listen to this part do this I love you thomas just what

0:36:29 Tom: The closer we are to people very often more often than not I think the closer we are the more of that we abandon because

0:36:32 Eli: A piece of shit I am to you yes

0:36:33 Thomas: Maybe well I maybe but there's also a sense in which if you're overly formal with someone who you shouldn't be who you're close to then it feels cold and like inappropriate to the relationship and I think that's kind of a tension there like I it would be weird to me if Lydia started being like oh Thank you, mister. Like that would be, and it wasn't in our role play.

0:36:40 Eli: Thank you yeah

0:36:58 Tom: Don't say please and thank you and you ask for something in your house with a Lydia? Like, now I'm curious. Like,

0:37:02 Thomas: And thank you. Sure. But not, but like there are other parts of it that like the formality drops off in a way that I think is good. Like you don't, you don'T want it to feel formal. Informal And a lot of that. And I think some amount of the politeness is that like,

0:37:10 Tom: Agree with that. Yeah. I think that there's, it's funny because there's a lot of distinctions here that I think are kind of embedded that, agree you don't want to be formal with people you want to become friends with. You want to get close with. Formality tends to hold people at arm's length. I totally agree that. I'm right there with you. But I don't think that most politeness is formal. I actually don't Think that most of it is. Like, do I care about, like putting elbows on tables, Like at my dining room? No, of course not. But like what I do see is that a lot of people, as they become closer, they stop thanking. They stop saying please before they ask for something. They stopped like expressing those sort of like small moments of real gratitude that politeness is often based on. And they just build these I think relationships that that a lot of people end up resenting or feeling like you know not seen and not like appreciated in and that's the opposite side of the formality right that's other side of the spectrum that that think is also very real like give you an example like in in in my house if I was hungry like let's say hayley and I are hanging out if I were hungry there's no way I would ever get up and go get myself something to to eat without asking her first if she wants something, right? There's no world where I would do that. And if she's not sure if she want something, I will wait to get up until she's decided whether or not she

0:38:33 Tom: Wants Something.

0:38:33 Thomas: Well, that's insane. He's

0:38:35 Eli: That's weird poor

0:38:35 Tom: I think that that's I think that that just polite, right like I like if she like, I'm not sure I'll be like, okay. Well, let me know, you know, and then I'll touch base there again in a few minutes and see if she wants something.

0:38:44 Eli: Tom clutching his stomach oh because especially because she's had stomach issues this year tom you almost died eats like a saltine a day man you gotta change your policy

0:38:45 Thomas: Starving. Yeah, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:38:50 Tom: But like, for a while that was, for a while, that was true. But like, yeah, like sorts of, I guess, and you don't have to do all the same thing. I'm not saying everybody has to do that. I just saying that that's an example, right?

0:39:03 Eli: Obviously it's not it's not a prescriptive thing right and it's and it'S it's a behavior you offer not a behavior you expect yeah

0:39:05 Thomas: There wasn't any danger of me doing that. Don't worry.

0:39:10 Tom: That's exactly right. That's Exactly right. But I do think that like at the root of what it means to to decide upon manners and what those things matter to us. What we're deciding on is what parts of the social contract we think are most valuable to us as our values and as getting us what we want, you because I do think that there's a strong pragmatic value to those things. You know, like I tell the kids, like Aislinn has a hard time saying thank you. She just doesn't really do it. And she's not much of a pleaser, actually. She's not much of a please person either.

0:39:27 Eli: Keep

0:39:46 Tom: She's better with she's better with please than she is with thank you. But she's not good with either of them. She is at an age where she can begin to understand that, like, hey, we don't fix this, going to have a hard time making relationships with people like this is going to be a problem because at some point, like are going to expect a certain level of gratitude and a certain certain level of, you manners and politeness, and they're going to see this as rude and you're going to be seen as a rude person. And they're not going to want to, they're gonna label you that way, whether it's fair or not. So what I'll tolerate in the house is different than what you should sort of like put out

0:39:45 Thomas: She's a real dick, actually, now I think about it.

0:39:49 Eli: Saying fuck nuts

0:40:23 Tom: Into the world. And those are conversations that I think are really valuable to begin having with people as they sort of, like, move through those things. And like I said, I'm I in the kitchen walking past Haley, like not every time, but if I I'm walking past, we're both working in the kitchen. I'll be like, Oh, excuse me. As I walk past her.

0:40:38 Eli: That's insane

0:40:38 Thomas: That's That's so funny. I was going to bring that up as a perfect example of what I don't say usually. Like, I think there's a lot with intimate partner that can go unsaid. Instead think you can take a more general like hey there you gratitude in the relationship or in that day and is there whatever and that that kind of serves rather than like the constant please and thank you I was going to bring up that as an example like I never say excuse me I just you know get do a little flirty grope and then get around her you know just like

0:41:01 Tom: So I might do the same thing. I might put my hand on her hip as I walk past, but I'll acknowledge that I'm squeezing past her, but

0:41:03 Thomas: Until

0:41:06 Eli: But tom if you dip does she dip and then do you both do yes

0:41:11 Tom: Do you do that? I'm curious where you're cause Eli, you're an almost unfailingly polite person. If you are a friend. So like, as like somebody who's had the good fortune of calling you my friend for a number of years, you are unfailingly polite. Light so I feel like these are values you hold too

0:41:26 Eli: They are I you know what's interesting is the thing you said about it's a thing you give rather than expect to receive that's where I'm at right Right. Which is like I do a lot of politeness stuff for others and expect almost none of it.

0:41:42 Thomas: You reach a certain relationship with eli and then it's all gaslighting and insults there's no know he'll just trick you into doing pull -ups yeah just you don't even if

0:41:44 Eli: Then and then it's all gaslighting and insults about your pull up abilities. That's right. Tricks you into doing pull ups. Has an affair with your wife on Instagram.

0:41:55 Thomas: He said oh I'm sorry I tricked you into being pulled up I'd be like what did an alien take over your body yeah what

0:41:58 Eli: What happened? Yeah. Did you steal the company? Happening no

0:42:04 Tom: So why is it that you don't it's like are those things not valuable to you to receive back or are they just not I'm curious why it only flows in one direction for you yeah

0:42:13 Eli: Think it's self -image thing because I think it's about respect right and I don't have a lot of self -respect um so when when people show me self - respect I am very uncomfortable in it right and that's largely what that is right that is largely someone saying like hey you are due this respect and I'm always like nah I'll give you a great example like my my students all call me Eli rather than Mr. Bosnick because I'm uncomfortable being called Mr. Boss Nick right yeah that's me that's a me thing that's not an other people thing and and people not a good gift receiver that's something that I've been working on the last couple of years like people get me really lovely gifts and I want to do like a you didn't have to do that and it's like oh that's no thank you to say a thank you out loud with your face and then say what you liked about it right because that because my thing is like Like, ah, I didn't deserve that. Ah, you big fucking, ah love

0:42:31 Thomas: Here we go again no

0:42:37 Tom: So that comes from you I

0:42:54 Thomas: Yeah yep that's a big one yep yep yep

0:43:03 Eli: Ya, whatever. But like, no, you actually have to have a moment where you genuinely thank a person. And so like, a lot of my bad manners come from is there a place where I am uncomfortable? Is there a relationship dynamic I'm uncomfortable imagining myself in? And what am I doing to avoid that?

0:43:23 Tom: Like like I expect the same not the same but I expect a a pretty high degree of in return like always like I'll give you an example like it's just our thing like I always make hayley her drinks and bring her her drink so like if she's ever thirsty I always makes sure to bring her a drink she never has to get up and get herself a drink I always do that but she always says thank you it would be fucking super weird and if it wasn't if she didn't say thank you like maybe she like forgets because she's looking at her phone or something who cares but like if just habitually she was not a habitual thinker I would be much less inclined to continue doing it because I would be like well fuck me you know like

0:44:03 Thomas: Thank you is more common. Please is like never for us. Like when we're talking about intimate relationship, like that feels weird. Like if I said, oh, please, can you like that would feel bizarre to me, like in an intimate relationship. I mean, maybe sometimes, but like that Feels weirdly formal to me because I think it's what's unstated is that we both always want to help each other. So it's fine but thank you I do get like we do I you know we both would say that like

0:44:24 Tom: What

0:44:30 Eli: This is useful, we have couple code right so anna's please is I have a pug on my lap if she so if she has madge on her lap

0:44:37 Thomas: Which would read to me as like oh okay yeah yeah

0:44:40 Tom: I get you she can't get up and do it she's got a pug on her lap

0:44:42 Eli: So she has a pug on her lab and so and and I have occasionally used that I have a plug on my lab um had a baby on my laptop or whatever the case may be but like yeah no there's that's definitely it but wait I I want to clarify are there men out there in the world who are not water boys first and foremost and what they do second I am just constantly ref I don't know if you know this my wife is a vacuum of a desert island somewhere and I am just refilling ever more ridiculous containers with the life -giving filtered water that she needs because she could taste the difference can you imagine there are men out there who don't give their wives filtered water I mean what are these guys doing they should be dead I guess is what I've one

0:45:02 Thomas: Of course

0:45:12 Tom: Yes wait

0:45:14 Thomas: Yeah they're trying to poison them yeah boy

0:45:23 Tom: Have to know does anna have more than one kind of drink always by her at any given time thank

0:45:28 Eli: Drink at a time what is she a peasant child in dictatorian england there's

0:45:31 Tom: You oh god yes yeah at

0:45:33 Thomas: You guys are dealing with Remy huh double fisting it at all times

0:45:36 Eli: Saying there are 90 97 beverages six of which were hot beverages and have gone cold I don't know if you know this but if you make yourself a delicious cup of tea and then you leave it on the dining room table for four and a half hours it is no longer a hot cup of Tea and that's on me that's something that I've learned something I've learned is that I should I got her a cup warmer a couple years ago I got one of those warming cups comes on like the electronic thing not not the thing that gets hot because I knew better than to get my wife right but the cup warmer thing she lost that bad boy so I think she just waited until I left the room and threw it out the front door it just went clapping down the front steps yeah no there's at least 87 beverages in In 96 different cups. Not mentioning the kid who also now has four different water. He's like some kind of gymnast with just 26 water bottles at all time. Just needs to

0:45:45 Thomas: My god yep I tried I tried that too oh god

0:46:35 Eli: Squirt them in his mouth for his next pole vault or whatever.

0:46:39 Thomas: Lydia I uh would get lydia water and then whatever water I got her would exist untouched in that form for several months because she doesn't drink water so eventually I stopped she does yeah she's a real tom she doesn'T drink water and eventually I just quit I just stopped nothing what does tom drink hard work I don't know something

0:46:49 Eli: Doesn't drink water. What's she drink? Oh.

0:46:48 Tom: Lydia lydia I see you I see yo yeah yeah no no yeah I had coffee this morning yeah, I but I, I it's, it's two in the afternoon.

0:47:02 Eli: Tom drinks coffee.

0:47:04 Thomas: I do make I do make lydia coffee every morning but that's but that and then often she won't

0:47:08 Tom: I had coffee this morning. I haven't had anything since then.

0:47:08 Thomas: Drink that this this is what's insane to me often she won't drink that and I'll find her coffee mug somewhere like hidden somewhere and

0:47:17 Eli: The hidden coffee mug is a good one. Yeah. Great prank.

0:47:19 Thomas: It's like oh okay yeah

0:47:20 Eli: Got me. Yeah. Keep it up, ladies. All right, gentlemen, before we go, Thomas is my

0:47:21 Thomas: It's awesome wait for whatever this shit is eli your new fucking fucking whatever this bit is oh god I

0:47:40 Eli: Joke of the week. Thomas is a 32 -year -old, and he's still single. One day, a friend asks, hey, Thomas, why aren't you married? Can't you find a woman who will be a good wife? Thomas replied, actually, I found many women I wanted to marry, but when I bring them home to meet my parents, my mother doesn't like them. His friend thinks for a moment and says I've got the perfect solution just find a girl who's just like your mother a few months later they meet again and the friend says so Thomas did you find the perfect girl did your mother like her with a frown on his face Thomas answers yes I found the perfect Girl she was just like my mother you were right my mother liked her very much and the friends said well then what's the problem and he said now my father doesn't like her

0:48:24 Thomas: Can't I don't want to do this I don's christ

0:48:26 Tom: These are so bad.

0:48:27 Eli: I think we all get it tune in next week for black guys talk like this everybody dear old dads all

0:48:40 Tom: My god do

0:48:45 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads .com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILf, tom smith who also wrote and recorded the intro music which is used with his permission this podcast is a production of daddy issues llc copyright 2022 all rights reserved

0:49:25 Eli: Know when you spit on a cock before you suck it what

0:49:27 Thomas: She's a real dick, actually, now I think about it.

0:49:30 Eli: Punch this kid in the face.