DOD163: Gentle Parenting Meets Survival Parenting

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad. That's my thing. I know now what I can offer you that no one else can. Complete and honor dependent. I'm a man. I'm sensitive. I need to feel loved. I need to be desired.

0:00:22 Clip: Telling is the only part of being a father that I enjoy.

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's screaming into the void and will not stop. I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined, as always, by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:35 Thomas: You know remy better not meet the void because then there won't be any more void there'd you've got a void problem near you I've got the solution it's uh screams to a degree that would just fill it the void be like that's ah that's enough yeah

0:00:43 Eli: That's that's true jesus

0:00:52 Tom: That's enough. That's an off screen. Did you see in 20?

0:00:54 Eli: Takes the wheel remy eats the void that's

0:00:57 Tom: Did you say in 2020 that like I think it was in Iceland or some shit, there was like a great big fucking chasm and they put a speaker into it and you could pay a little fee and get on and scream into the voice. You could scream into the I thought that was great I was like yeah all right is there anything more 2020 than this it was it was fucking delicious

0:01:06 Thomas: What

0:01:07 Eli: Very funny thought you were going to talk about the hole to hell in russia which is my favorite scam

0:01:16 Tom: My god yeah this the the hole to hell that like just

0:01:19 Eli: That comes back new fresh every couple of years or so and I'm always so happy when it does it's

0:01:24 Thomas: Is it I don't I think remember that oh

0:01:26 Eli: Just a lie

0:01:26 Tom: Just a hole in the ground yeah no

0:01:28 Thomas: And that's is it like an aip everything now now is an AI picture lie is it one of those or is it just no

0:01:33 Eli: That's no this is old -fashioned this is this just every so often a christian will say it and I get to talk about it again which is there's like a kind of deep hole in russia right like I can't emphasize it not not super deep just kind of deep like deeper than the rope they could find in the surrounding village uh then some people took that and added a bunch of like noise of people in a gymnasium or something it's very unclear where they got that but it's apparently the sounds from hell because that hole apparently leads to hell and I would say once a year one of our bevy of christian assholes just sort of whips out that audio and is like you notice they're screaming obama and I'm just like fantastic hell yeah oh

0:01:34 Tom: This is legit yeah

0:02:15 Thomas: Sure

0:02:15 Eli: I thought it was obama last year it's kamala they send them yes the three ah sounds is what it is oh

0:02:19 Thomas: Yeah you know there was I think and I don't want to put anyone I'm not trying to be that guy except I absolutely will be that guy we had I think a listener submit a like oh yeah I feel you Thomas here's video of my kid screaming and it didn't even register like it didn'T even even, I'm so sorry. I don't want to be that one upper, but I was like, that's, That's not, thatS not in the same ballpark as what I'm talking about.

0:02:44 Eli: I mean if we're gonna go there thomas has sent us audio of grammy screaming multiple times and it's just a kid screaming everybody it's juste normal it's jest a kid screaming I don't know why you would open that kettle thomas I've

0:02:54 Tom: Human microphone no

0:02:50 Thomas: It's not. Here's the problem. The audio I have sent. No. No! No. I sent you a recording through two closed doors. Like that's what I think you're not getting about that recording I sent.

0:02:57 Tom: Human made microphone can pick up this sound

0:03:05 Thomas: You know, you haven't, you have Have not been in a room when he actually screamed. No, Eli, I'm being actually serious with you. He scream around people because he screams when he's bored and mad at us for not entertaining him.

0:03:05 Eli: Been in a room with remy screaming is the scream in the room with us right now thomas okay sorry new episode I just gaslight thomas the entire time that's

0:03:19 Thomas: It won't happen. When other, yeah, when other people are around, he gets shy and just doesn't do the same things. The scream is very much only for us. He doesn'T scream at daycare either. It really is a gaslighting. The whole world is gaslighted. Lydia and I to be like, oh, he doesn't screen. He's never screened before. What are you talking about? There's no screaming, but he just, is not screams when we are not constantly entertaining him and doing exactly what he wants and so we're at this uh you know hostage situation and then uh anyone else shows up he puts on a different whole different persona that's great and the only thing worse than then eli gaslighting me about the fucking scream I

0:03:50 Eli: Right that's the only thing worse than having a baby gas lighter yeah supported by your podcasting house is the auto ads the gas lighting of the podcast experience Wait a second. I thought this podcast was brought to me by patrons. No, it's brought to you by hair dye from a local lady in New Jersey who somehow bought a lot of auto ads. Either way, you can make those auto ads go away. Just like Thomas could make Remy go away for as little as a dollar over at patreon .com

0:04:20 Thomas: Think it would cost

0:04:18 Tom: It would cost more than a dollar.

0:04:20 Thomas: Me more than that yeah

0:04:21 Eli: Forward slash dear old dads. Yeah it's a five at the five dollar level we will kill your gaslighting baby that's our new level we just unveiled it so uh sign up quick over at patreon .com you also get bonus episodes we got a little fantastic um ask your mom uh story from thomas last week which was a ton of fun uh we get a bonus episode with the one the only heath enright last month uh and all sorts of fun stuff over there on the patreon check it out patreon .com forward slash dear old dads and podcast listener we did record this episode at the same time as we recorded last week's episode so I may have since been contacted lydia she will cut it if I haven't rip into it lydia smith wants it back it's fucking back all right she's

0:05:08 Thomas: She does she very much does she told me she'd she told she'd leave me if it didn't come back I was like Jesus okay man yeah I was gonna say I just shouldn't I just make that joke because then we won't get it back

0:05:10 Eli: Being gaslit by a baby she needs the rip into it never mind I'm cutting it from my own give me one stop in the train I just replace it with remy screaming thomas

0:05:24 Thomas: I'm not gonna fall for your fucking trap of doing 10 Remy screen pull -ups because it you are it

0:05:32 Eli: When have I ever gaslit you on this podcast when have I ever when have I ever said anything untrue on any of our podcasts perhaps the first time all of us met

0:05:37 Thomas: Man. So I

0:05:36 Tom: The very first time I ever met you. The very first time I ever met you, Eli Bosnick.

0:05:43 Thomas: Man,

0:05:44 Eli: I don't remember this I don' t know I think you guys are I think you guys are lying to make me feel bad thomas do you want to go first with your apology or did you want to tell your story right

0:05:57 Thomas: I want to give a little bit of a Remy. I mean, it's a story. It's an update on the topic we've talked about before. But something happened that was pretty significant to me. And I think it's it's data. It'S good data. You here's the problem we've talking about on the show a number of times that I think is definitely true True for us with the NeuroSpice kids or potentially NeuroСпice kids. Probably true of most parents. Wasn't true of our parents because our parents, if we didn't want to do something, our parents or mine anyway, we're like, oh, that's fine. You just but you do it, though. And it's like there's no option of you not doing the thing. You just do the thing and that's the end of our parenting.

0:06:30 Eli: The the notion that our parents would my parents were pretty great about this right the notionthat you're you felt about a thing would change whether or not a thing was happening unheard of

0:06:35 Thomas: You can use mine. Yeah, that'S fine. Yeah. Yeah. Unheard of. Yeah. Absolutely irrelevant to to it happening or not. That um we have this discussion it's a sort of a gentle parenting thing it's also like I have identified with arlo a few things where um because arlo again he he didn't officially get the diagnosis but it was a keep an eye on it and if these things don't change then it might it's probably autism uh so we're still in that unclear territory uh definitely um uh neuro spice we'll say for sure neuro spice there are things that I know I'm not finding them on like Like I'm not fighting him on there's certain things where it's like not going to happen. If I win, that's probably trauma for him. You know what I mean? Like best case, I get him to do a thing and he hates it forever and hates me. And it's just too much. Like there's things that he's too dead set on because of the way his mind works that I'm, I'm going to fight. There are other things though, where you, sometimes you need him to put on his fucking, I don't know, shoes to go outside. Like there're certain things were you're like, well, this has to happen, you like, I am sorry. Sorry, like, I

0:07:40 Thomas: Don't, we have to find a way to have this happen. And other things that are some, some sort of middle area that's like, well, I bet if he tried this, he probably would be fine with it. But he has such an initial response of, no, I hate that. I'm never doing that. It's like buddy, you haven't even tried it. I know like, yeah, I'm now, you know, like so it's, it's knowing which is which that's really hard. Now, Remy, uh, a whole different story. I think, um, in that we're We're all hostage to his just mind curdling, gut wrenching, ear damaging screams. And it's so hard to be so busy and have two other kids and that in an effective way. And it seemingly there's nothing we can do. Like, it just seems like it's impossible to get this kid to stop doing it. I've tried so many things. Something I learned that Eli will appreciate. Know how I've talked about he just wants food all the time. And he gets mad at us for all that. Think what's going on is like a severe boredom thing. And Like he never gets there. I would think, okay, I think what might be going on, is that for us, being bored might be like, oh, it sucks, I'm bored, that's no good. Now, I don't remember what that's like, because, I you don' t think any of us, all three of us remember what tha' s like, but like back as as a kid, you'd be like, man, I'm kind of bored. That sucks. I think Remy experiences a nanosecond of boredom and it's like, someone's ripping his face off. Like, I think that's what's going on. And it was a food thing. I actually think it might not be. I Think that when he's bored, he goes for a million different foods and thinks that's like going to solve it or thinks that it's entertaining or whatever. And then like, if someone comes over or if he's at at daycare, or able to like take him out to a park, he's not hungry. He's fine. He is completely fine. I've realized this. Was the part I was going to say I think Eli would appreciate. He always asks for two foods. And is the wrong term. He Always demands at gunpoint two foods every time. And I've tried to get him to say, hey, finish this food and then I'll give you another food. No. And I

0:09:40 Thomas: Realized it's because he has two hands. I'm not even joking. It literally is like, yep, this is not a bit. I guarantee you this is it. He's like, yeah, one thing goes in this hand and the other thing goes in this head. Yeah, it's like that's math.

0:09:43 Tom: All right. I am. That is my boy. That's amazing.

0:09:51 Eli: And then another thing goes in the other hand yeah oh two versus one this episode thomas you can fuck yourself who's that special guest

0:10:05 Tom: Dude. On that, I can sympathize, dude. Amon Was the same way. Amon needed to, for like the first four or five years of his life, he always had to be holding stuff in his hands. What what really satisfied that sensory need for him to hold stuff. And a lot of times he would have like multiple things tucked in between his different fingers. Like matchbox cars, matchbox. Cars are just about the perfect size and shape for a little guy to sort of tuck between each of his fingers at least it worked great for for

0:10:33 Eli: Remy

0:10:38 Thomas: Well, I think there is some level of he does like the food would bet because we have infinite objects in our house they he here's uh another thing Remy's gotten so bad I don't care that he colors on himself with markers anymore I'm done trying to stop it he does it's so impossible yeah my

0:10:51 Tom: Finn still does that finn's fucking 18 he'll come over and he's like my girlfriend drew on my arm and I'm like you look like an idiot what

0:10:58 Thomas: Remy just colors with on himself with markers and and you know what if he's being quiet fine you can have full body tattoos I don' t care I'm down with it so I was having a hell of a time and and And I think real parents, I don't know why I said real. I think parents know, I meant, I was going to say how it's really going to be is what I meant. How it really is out there, which is, good

0:11:16 Eli: Oh They'll fucking get it. We're not counting gay men. That's what Thomas means. Go on, Thomas. Thank you.

0:11:25 Tom: What the fuck

0:11:30 Thomas: Delivery on that. I'm finally standing up for this point that, yeah. Anyway, I everyone can relate. Every parent can relate to the fact that thing, I've got to cut all this, but now I might not. Yeah. That things on paper are one thing. And it's great to to read the parenting books we've, which I've read a ton of and to hear the talk about the everything. And then there's the reality of parenting, which you try to do that. And you know, sometimes you can you try harder than, than, times. And other times it's you're just at your last literal fucking like brain neuron. Like you're, I've got one more and it's like, you can't scream at me again. I'm sorry. I can't, I can'T do it. Uh, and I, and so this weekend I was, my I own and on my last fucking nerve. I just really was. Also, um, was another physical consideration. So Remy for a while went down the stairs, fine on his own. And then I don't know know what happened. I don't know if he fell at some point. I have no idea, but something changed. This was

0:11:39 Eli: Rip into gays.

0:12:29 Thomas: Like a few months ago.

0:12:29 Tom: One's watching we just we hear a thumpity thump thump thump we're just like there

0:12:31 Thomas: I don'T know if something changed while I wasn't there or what. A certain point, he decided stairs were no longer a thing. He walks down. He just decided that one day and it's hell because what he can do is he can follow us up the stairs. Anytime we're doing anything, he follows us up to stairs. We're doing chores. We're doing we're not thinking about him we're just kind of trying to get something else done follow it follows us up the stairs we go back down the stairs why because I don't know we have 10 other kids somebody needs something or I'm in the middle of work or something and then there's remy at the top of the stairs for an hour just because we won't take him back down the stairs because we forgot that he needs to come so like that was hell um I did everything I could to try to like hey buddy I'm going to ease you down the side I'm gonna try to help you do do this again no he just just screams forever until he finally one day a month later he finally started going downstairs I was like oh thank god thank god we're done with that because that was that was just the worst and we're gone and then he had a relapse the other day so this weekend he wakes me up after I've had I don't know two three hours of sleep he wakes me up at six whatever and I'm fucking I'm just like oh my god I'm so tired And I'm like, all right, buddy, you've You've screamed me out of bed. You've dreamed me that we need to go downstairs. You've straight. This is his only mode is scream. You scream. OK. And I said, I'm, like, fine. I'm doing I'll do the thing. We'll go eat. We'll do it. We'll, yeah, we'll do the things you want to do. And Arlo is with me, too. Arlo goes down the stairs. I'm not cool. I start walking down the stairs and Remy does the no, I'm not doing it. Fuck you. I'm not going down the stairs. Screams at me and I'm like, buddy. Buddy, my shoulder fucking hurts. You weigh 40 pounds now. I don't, I can't, I'm not carrying you down the, like, I'm just not doing it today. It was one of those, like I'm just on, I've had enough, you know, like. I, I was too tired. My shoulder hurt. I didn't want to pick him up. I know he can do it. He's been doing it fine. And he just said, no, I don' fuck you. I'm doing it. I start to walk down, meltdown and, And I'm like, buddy, please. I' not doing, I try, I go back up .I try to lead him by the hand. You It's grab onto the rail with one. I'll hold it. Nope. Fuck you. Screaming. Not going to do it. Not going TO do it, and so I say, hey, buddy, you're going on timeout because I'm not doing this. Like today I'm on my last nerve. I'm nicht doing this, and so he goes on time out. He screams. He screams and screams. I do short time out because he's a kid. I don't want to. I'm NOT like punishing him. My parents would just lock the door and through with the key for the whole day.

0:14:49 Tom: Kids you can't time them out for more than six or seven weeks before like you get phone calls and like true yeah it's a whole thing

0:14:54 Eli: Yeah, 100%.

0:14:54 Thomas: It's supposed to be like minutes for years. They're alive. I think is one thing someone said. And I was like, yeah, sure. We do a quick one and he hates it. So I don't, I really don't need to do much. It's just, Hey buddy, timeout. And really, I just want to be able to have a threat of something. And so giving him one timeout helps because I can, I can say, Hey, time out. And then he'll usually stop doing what he's doing. Uh, cause he doesn't want that. So Um, I did that do a quick timeout and I was Like, Hey buddy. All right. Do we want to try again? And so we go to the stairs. Hey guess what same fucking thing screaming screams guys like buddy I'm not I'm just not doing this today like I'm Not doing it you can walk down the stairs I'll help you I even did a like all right I'm compromising even more I'll kind of lift you down one stair at a time but he's like no no no up up screaming screaming he wants me to pick him up and he screams loud enough and harsh enough in my ear that I'm like hey buddy another quick time out I put him back in his room which is right by the stairs by the way this is all like having one square foot like again. And then I'm thinking, all right, obviously I'm going to have to carry him down the stairs. Like, I'm not going to win this. I'm like, there's no part of me is like, do I, do I see how long he can keep this up? I got nothing else. All I am is miserable and tired. And it's the weekend.

0:16:02 Thomas: I do want coffee and food, but I was like, I might just see how long he keeps this up.

0:16:05 Eli: Might starve to death. Yeah.

0:16:07 Tom: What?

0:16:07 Thomas: Yeah. Just was like I do want to know, like I he can walk down the fucking stairs. I know we can do it. Like he can do, he's been doing it. I don't know why he decided this morning he didn't want to. I don'T know if you, you know, maybe you got a knee injury playing football. I don' t know what it would be. So here I am in the second timeout phase while he's still screaming, thinking, boy, either I give up right now, which I'm probably going to do, or do I just, do I just see, do I just see how long he could fucking go? And so I'm like, all right, all right, buddy, quick timeout. I let him out. I was like, All right, Buddy, are we we're going to try again? And he's like, and then we go to the stairs. And not only does he walk down the stairs he does like an effort to like look like see yeah this is what I'm supposed to like you can't talk but he's like yeah this this is what I need to do and he walks down the upstairs completely independently no more tears for the entire morning completely fine yep

0:16:59 Thomas: I was like I don't fuck that's not what I was expecting because I've never it's like it's an old nintendo game I've never gotten to that level before like we've not I didn't know you could get past the Battletoads jetpack, whatever. I didn't know that existed. I don't think Lydia did either. She's certainly never gotten to that level, because I'm the only asshole who would put him on enough timeouts to see what happens. And me about it, and what has me so confused, I really actually genuinely want your guys' thoughts on this, was that whole time I was doing my best to be gentle parent, it was timeout. It wasn't like, fuck you, timeout, I'm throwing. It was

0:17:00 Tom: That's awesome.

0:17:08 Eli: I never win. Yeah. Right

0:17:33 Thomas: Like, hey buddy, let's take a quick time I I really didn't want this to be like a horrible thing I just wanted to see what he could get over this and the the way he turned it around was so stark it wasn't even like oh I'm mad and I'm crying but I'll walk down the stairs and I'll still it was like he was fine he something switched in his mind on that second time out and he just like made the connection like oh okay this is what I have to do and he was happy about it like I am so thrown thrown off I I don't even know what to make of that like it would be a full -time job to try to do that with every single thing we need Remy to do like it really would be but I that's telling me like fuck maybe there's more things than I think that like he will do he just he's so quick to scream us to death that he wins all the time and now I don'T KNOW I'M QUESTIONING EVERYTHING ABOUT MY LIFE I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUCK IS HAPPENING NOW Yeah.

0:18:20 Tom: Well, know, one thing, too, that like I want to jump on real quick is that I think what you're describing also is like the real problematic intersection between gentle parenting, which is like a style and a sort of like, for lack of a better term, like procedure that you sort of follow and survival parenting. Parenting, right? Of people are parenting oftentimes in ways that are like, okay, I got to solve a problem. And right now the problem is I've got to record a podcast, for example, and I can't have Remy screaming 130 fucking decibels scream in the other room. So I can'T do the thing consistently. It's sort of like, I use this metaphor all the time and I fucking hate it, but I think it's true. It'S like, if you're going to train a dog, don't, you you can't train the dog only sometimes this way and other times the other way it

0:18:40 Thomas: Mm hmm. Yep. Yep, yep. Mm. Yeah, 100%. Yeah.

0:19:11 Tom: Will never work right it's an inconsistent message and people aren't dissimilar so

0:19:16 Thomas: Certainly small children that that is very they are very similar to that. Yeah yeah.

0:19:19 Tom: Yeah so so if we're sort of like working toward building certain behaviors one of the most important elements is consistency and that is just and I'm just being empathetic here but that's just like in conflict with what we think of as survival parenting which kind of short circuits your your ability to do the procedural elements of the other pieces

0:19:36 Thomas: If Remy were kid one we would not be having this issue. We really wouldn't.

0:19:42 Eli: Because they have all the attention and focus right and that is that so often what it was and I think what we found that it was with max and the hitting phase which I mean I think we did an episode on just how lost I was on the hitting face right and like there wasn't a thing that we did right that cured it right thats also part of the pain is like Like, everyone's like, hey, here's some good ideas, but, you know, right, try a little of this, try a little that, right? And there's no, you get that there's -no -right -answer thing a lot, and it's like, yeah, but I have to live, right.

0:20:05 Thomas: A sprinkle Sprinkle a little bit of olive oil down the, home remedy, yeah. Lemon.

0:20:19 Eli: Have do something right.

0:20:18 Thomas: Yeah, exactly, yeah, and you don't have infinite time to experiment with all these things. Okay, we'll try this new approach and fucking power and time, the processor time to be like, all right, we're going to do this. We'll try his new approach. We'll do this, like, it's just, oh, good.

0:20:30 Tom: Both have to get on the same page right so that and that's the other thing if you're when you're survival parenting it's really hard to you don't even have like moments necessarily to be like all right here's what I've done this afternoon when there's the sort of like what I I imagine Thomas as the sort of chaos of a household, you know, where you've got a lot of kids that are around the same age. I'm super grateful. I never, I only ever had kids that were like, I had one young kid, then one other young kid. I've never had more than one young kid at the same time. I was super lucky in that respect.

0:20:35 Eli: You need to be in perfect agreement yeah

0:20:47 Thomas: .

0:21:04 Tom: But like, I've certainly been in scenarios where there's multiples and the chaos is its own thing to manage yeah

0:21:00 Thomas: . . yeah, yeah ,

0:21:10 Eli: Yeah and thomas you speak to something that's that is I think really important to understand in those situations because it's very fine theory in to say I'm going to hold my ground this works but if you have a kid who reacts in a certain way to everything you can't hold your ground on everything and they also need to learn flexibility and compromise compromise right so like if there's a big you know noise or something or if he hasn't gotten his breakfast yet and he screams maybe you're like yeah you know what fair scream right I remember this with max like there would be moments where he would freak out or overreact and I'd be like oh you know What like this is actually a moment where I understand you being upset and not like behaving in the way that I necessarily want you to behave and then the next moment I'm like okay well this is a moment Where I feel like it should stand my ground and

0:21:29 Thomas: That's right. Right that's also true yeah yeah yeah yep yeah yep also now fuck you I was on your side but fuck this man and

0:22:00 Eli: And everyone tells you like oh you got to be consistent and it's like I don't have the time or emotional reserves to be persistent also we we don'T behave consistently that's not a human behavior

0:22:11 Thomas: I want to have it gives me a chance to bring up I like this because I'm sure I'll get people complaining about why didn't you just pick him up and take him downstairs again I just my look shoulder really hurt I just didn't feel like doing it and I gave him so many any alternatives. I forgot to mention also Arlo came up and was like, Oh, I'll carry him. I was like, yeah, all right. I fine. Like, I hate that he's still winning as a terrorist. Like I feel like we shouldn't let the terrorists win, but Arlo come up and it was going to pick him up. And I was like all right, well, that'll be a compromise. And comes up and Remy screams and like tries to hit him. And I was like okay, that was we always have the mode. All right. Well now fuck you Remy.

0:22:45 Thomas: Like that's unreasonable. Like we can't do this. Like Like, that's not acceptable. And I cannot believe it worked. I really can't. It's the weirdest thing. It's almost like the old Will Ferrell bit from the Austin Powers where he's like, I can't be asked the same question three times. He's like where does it do his number to work for? It's like it was that kind of thing where Remy was like, all right, two timeouts. That's my max. Okay, I'll do whatever you want.

0:23:07 Eli: And then the following week it doesn't work at all and then though the next week they stop without you asking it's it's so frustrating and I also you know what I want to speak to that I went through a lot when we were in this and and still go through right like we're going through it today with potty stuff right those moments of frustration and sadness and loneliness and fear you spend so much of the time worrying you're fucking up right it's not really about the kids behavior right I'll get screamed at all day every day I'll let him have his 97th potty accident right my worry is that I'm fucking up and that someone will turn back to me and say hey you fucked up and now there are consequences for him right it's not about the consequences for me it's about raising a happy healthy kid and it really doesn't it doesn't feel like there's a right answer or an easy answer for any of it

0:23:58 Thomas: What do you think this means? Should I just be doing this more? Just timeouts all the time? Just like, yeah.

0:24:01 Tom: Mean well I think I like like eli said what's crazy is that maybe it'll work the next time and maybe it won't work the Next time that's the crazy part of it like it's I also like I think there's a there's an impossible space that you're in where you're to do the thing that this kid you don't want this leave this kid like in distress stress when they're actually in distress, right? Nobody likes that. You're like, I'm not a big believer in like, ah, let little guy who can barely communicate and fend for himself and has no agency just cry until they stop. I don't think that's good for people most of the time, right? We have to provide for most of their needs, including their emotional frustration, which is a real need that you've got to address. But also sometimes part of crying is a communication to you and it's kind of impossible for you to know are they communicating using crying as I want to go down the stairs or are they expressing a broader like frustration about their inability to do things they want to do and they don't know that they don'T fucking know they're not that fucking you yet like it's all fucking mushed together that's why babies are fucking impossible they can't be raised at all and years one through 16 or so are pretty much just a wash. They're just a complete wash. Right. So, uh, I want to finish up this episode with your thoughts on an, am I the asshole that popped up that I thought was really interesting? Um,

0:24:02 Eli: I love screaming at my dad

0:25:24 Thomas: I was going to say I 38 male

0:25:24 Eli: And the other day I'm standing at the top of the stairs

0:25:26 Thomas: Would not carry my kid down the stairs.

0:25:28 Tom: So I think this is, this is just kind of an interesting, interesting. Am I, the asshole? Am I the for telling my daughter, she actually has to do things things to get celebrated. I have a 16 -year -old daughter, Katie, maybe Katty, and a 14 -year old Jake. Jake is more of an achiever. He's involved in sports, does great in school, recently won an award for community volunteering. We've been celebrating his achievements, usually with a dinner out. Katie, on the other hand, doesn't do much. She hasn't been putting effort into anything lately. She basically just goes to school and then exists in the house. She spends her free time on her phone or watching TV. She doesn't have any hobbies or interests outside of her friend group and doesn't put much effort into schoolwork. This results in her not getting many celebrations outside of her birthday. We stopped forcing her to do sports or other clubs when she had high school. Katie came to me and said she feels like it's unfair we celebrate Jake, and I decided to have a conversation with her. I sat her down and explained that we love her just as much, but if she wants to be celebrated like Jake, she needs to put effort into something. I suggested she try to find something she's passionate about or to work harder in school, that should make her own goals to work toward I thought I was being honest but gentle katie did not take it well she exploded accusing me of playing favorites and said it was unfair that jake gets all the attention just because he's always doing things she even lashed out at jake telling him that he was the golden child and she was tired of hearing about how great he was jake was hurt by her outburst and now things are awkward between them katie's been avoiding both me and her brother since then staying in her room or giving us the silent treatment my husband husband thinks I could have phrased it better but I believe this was an important reality check for her if she isn't doing anything then there just isn't anything to celebrate very

0:25:40 Thomas: Already love it.

0:27:08 Tom: Curious where you guys land on this right

0:27:09 Thomas: It. Well, as always, we got to take like, all right, assuming it's real, assuming they're representing the facts accurately. I mean, I don't.

0:27:17 Tom: And that's the problem with these right I was like well

0:27:20 Eli: I'd also ask the question of like what is the celebration right like if every time jake has a wiffle ball game the family goes to disneyland that's excessive right that's excessive and comparative right are there ways in which your behavior is feeling comparative when it's not meant to be right are right

0:27:37 Tom: Think what they said to be fair is they go to dinner when like yeah I think that's a celebration

0:27:41 Eli: So in right Right. The things you say and the ways in which you say them, like there may be ways that this person is letting it slip, that it's comparative rather than just about Jake. Right. Again, assuming good faith and assuming that thisperson is representing things correctly. Yeah, this is a thing someone needs to learn. And I think it's an important lesson that we all learn. Right. Think a part of growing up and certainly a partof teenagerhood. Good right this moment where you know I think about this thing that thomas said all the time because I think it's so important right he was talking once about um had said to phoebe like hey you know when you treat people like that not you going to want to like do stuff with you right or something like that right had never occurred to me was like this genuine communication of like hey that's not how we treat people right And it was such a revelatory moment because it was so honest and real and it was also so wonderful that you trusted her with that genuine communication as opposed to my default, which is like, you know, to turn into Miss Rachel and be like, hey, buddy, I can see you're feeling big, mad. Right. Instead of just being like, Hey, that sucks. Right. But doing it in a constructive and helpful way. And it sounds like this parent is communicating something really important. Right? Right? Which is that you gotta don't, earn celebration, right? I don't think you need to earn your right to be here. And I know I'm the minority on the podcast

0:29:01 Eli: When it comes to this. I But do you needs to earn celebration. You need to earn the feeling of being special. I think that is something that everyone discovers for themselves. I think it's a really important part of self -discovery.

0:29:14 Thomas: I was going to use one of my own experiences, but recognizing, you know, that my, like it's my childhood experiences are not really like representative of what anything should be, but like, yeah, exactly.

0:29:23 Eli: So I'm locked in the closet for 48 days.

0:29:26 Thomas: I want to be like, I want you to be like this reinforces this thing is like, no. I do remember that like, Like my parents obviously were very consistent with this and they just didn't do a whole lot of celebrating of anything, but there was one deal they always had with all the kids, which was if you get straight A's the whole year, I guess, and we were on the quarter system for most of, I think all of school until college, we were in quarters and it was like all four quarters. So that was what it is. I get straight days each quarter, you know, you get a report card each quarter straight. Then at the end of the year, you Get a hundred bucks. And back then that was, I couldn't even believe it.

0:29:59 Thomas: Like that was impossible. Possible yeah and and that was I only witnessed it because my older sister who got just straight a's all the time pretty much forever and she would do it and it was like wow and then she would you know she'd get a b and be like oh I didn't get it and then it's like oh fuck and I think they stuck to their guns um then what blew my mind later was that like once they oh I think it only started in high school maybe that's the deal it wasn't all through school just in high school that's what it was and then what what blew my mind later

0:29:59 Eli: That's a lot of money yeah

0:30:01 Tom: That's awesome.

0:30:25 Eli: Fuck you got another smiley sticker again

0:30:29 Thomas: Four quarters of smileys what blew our mind later was that like I think my mom might have done what could have been perhaps a bit of good parenting which was she recognized that I just was not my bigger sister like I had adhd and couldn't do the like she still denies it even though she was there she was part of the diagnosis but she's she still doesn't get it but she at least recognized that I would have a harder time with homework. Like I ace every test, but I have a hard time, especially dumb homework. That's pointless. Like, I don't know, history in English back then. And I didn't get it. And so I wasn't getting the A's. And I was like, oh man, I didn'T get, you know, I already blew it in this first quarter, you Know, cause I like, I alReady got, didn'T get all A's and I remember she's like, Oh no, I think the rule is like, as long as you get straight A's by the last quarter or something. And I remember thinking myself like that wasn't, I know that wasn'The fucking deal. I appreciate it, but

0:31:22 Eli: Well that's that's what occurred to me while you were saying it is like yeah if you blow it in the first quarter then the rest of the year you're like fuck it right like that's kind of

0:31:31 Thomas: That also could have been her motivation. Now they think about it. She was like, fuck that blows the whole deal. Maybe keep him motivated. Um, like, I was pretty sure she was just adjusting that down for me a little, which is like my dad obviously never would have. And who knows when it came to it, I'm sure my dad would have like vetoed it. Obviously I didn't, I never got the straight A's like it just never happened. I'd always have one class I hated and couldn't do. Yeah. It was like, it wasn't happening.

0:31:49 Eli: Her money was safe you

0:31:54 Thomas: I, yeah, no, here's why I'm going to defend my own honor. It Was All A's and like one B minus every, cause I just couldn't do like certain, English. I just Couldn't fucking do it. And so I, I, but I got good grades cause it's like, It's not that hard.

0:31:54 Eli: Know what it's no D's remember the rules no knees is is

0:32:09 Thomas: Even for someone who can't do homework.

0:32:09 Eli: See see I'm right there with you thomas starting in sixth grade I was just not failing but whatever the closest thing to failing was math every year every semester so my grades would be straight a's perfect above a hundred and like I don't think your son can count right every year my parents would get called in for the same conference every year they would say can we we have the math teacher first and they would because the math teacher would be like, I really think Eli needs summer school and and some kind of restraints, maybe a Hannibal Lecter situation to keep him from fighting the other students.

0:32:24 Thomas: F. f yeah uh yeah

0:32:43 Tom: We think that to be fair. Like that's still good Eli advice.

0:32:44 Eli: And then everyone else was like, he's a delight to have in class. And like they, remember once, it was high school that they stopped doing like one -on -one conferences and all got to watch my math teacher, Miss Purdy, big ups be like, fucking what? Cause everyone else was like, oh my God. And when he, oh, he's so funny. And she was like he bit a desk. He bit a desk cause he wanted to, and I'm quoting him, make his twofers work good. Like what the fuck is happening here? Um, but my parents, and this is a slightly different philosophy. My parents just um yelled at me about it they just yelled at me all the time forever and assured me that it was my inherent laziness and flaw of character which I then internalized and I stopped doing things I'm bad at forever and it turned out great you ever see me do a thing I'm bad at no exactly how

0:33:06 Thomas: Hey me too

0:33:31 Tom: Yeah well I I mean I I see you spell

0:33:40 Eli: Dare you I'm kicking Tom from the Zencaster I'm stealing the podcast Thomas come with me oh

0:33:49 Thomas: That's just spell this password correctly and then

0:33:53 Tom: God but I think there's two things here that I would I would that seize on and like the first is part is of the conversation she did have which is she explained to her that we love her just as much that if she wants us to be celebrated she's going to have to put effort into something and the mom suggested trying to find something that she's passionate about or to work harder in school and that she should make her own goals to work toward that is the most important part ofthe conversation right think about this question when parenting all the time it's like what am I trying to accomplish with this kid like what is the goal that I want if it's with katie the goal here that I would want is like hey what I actually want from katie is two things I want her to feel loved and appreciated and part of this family and then the other thing I want to do is see that she can put effort into things and gain success and win and I think the most important thing she should be doing in this conversation is not the sort of admonishment Like, well, you don't accomplish shit. And Jake's kind of awesome. So I don't know if I can figure that out like that. That sort of stuff, I don'T think actually like has a whole lot of value. I DON'T think it accomplishes the result that you're driving for. I think what accomplishes, the result you're driving for is to be like, all right, let's sit together and figure out what you're good at. You there's know, gotta be

0:35:07 Tom: Something to fucking celebrate about this kid. I'm sympathetic to the sort of like burnout kid though. And I want to mention that too because when I was talking to Haley about this Am I the Asshole I was reminded of like some people I knew in high school like I used to be best friends with this kid I was a pretty high achieving kid he is the kid who shot me in the eye yeah he's the kid who shot him in the eyes the thing is like was a fun guy he was actually other than shooting me in the fucking eye on purpose he was pretty nice guy for the most part he really was

0:35:10 Eli: See the one who shot your eyeball out of your head I

0:35:27 Thomas: I thought I dreamt that other than that a real other than that mrs lincoln situation

0:35:38 Eli: Feel like I feel like you you ruin the yeah you really wreck the curve when you shoot the eyeball out of my skull it's

0:35:40 Tom: It's a big other than that I recognize recognize it didn't come out it just almost did but like okay so that sucked like I can't like use it for eye stuff but like whatever but like I think about that guy and I'm like you know what he would have been a hard kid he really would have Been a hard Kid to figure out how to celebrate he woke up in the morning late he went to school he put the minimum amount of effort in he came home sometimes he did his homework more often to be honest he didn't he didn'T do anything extra cricket he just kind of bummed around hung out with his friends and smoked pot that was who he was that's what that his day was that'S a real hard kid I just want to like say it's a real fucking hard kid to

0:35:49 Eli: Doesn't live there anymore shot

0:35:51 Thomas: It rents yeah oh yeah

0:36:24 Tom: Celebrate and I fucking get it but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't do the work as the parent of being like all right let's figure it out together let's write it out let's make a plan like let's find something here and then if they fail to do that stuff then I think you have the conversation of like hey man you came to me and said you felt like you weren't a part of this celebration this is a 16 year old kid that we were celebrating jake because you know jake made fucking state wrestling team or whatever like

0:36:52 Eli: Tom's eye right out of his skull

0:36:54 Tom: Shot my eye shot his buddy's eye at one shot too look at that he's a fucking sniper a thousand thousand yards

0:36:54 Thomas: It's a better shot yeah yeah celebrate that give them a certificate marksmanship certificate I've

0:37:01 Eli: Chris kyle

0:37:01 Tom: Well you asked to be celebrated we came up with this together you said you were gonna like get from here to here with your schoolwork or you said you were going to like work on your art project or you're gonna enter a show for like you whatever fucking is right you come up with something together and then if they don't do it you can have a then you can have that real talk conversation I think having that conversation with that kid when they're emotionally sort of feeling left out of the family and feeling unloved was just the wrong time for it.

0:37:32 Eli: I think that time was the time to let them know that they were loved for who they are and what they are. And the hard talk can be some other time.

0:37:43 Tom: Yeah. I think she just confused it by squishing the good advice with the bad advice.

0:37:47 Thomas: Don't know though. Like how do you answer that in a way that doesn't immediately go

0:37:50 Eli: I'll Well, say, you know, in my own family, right? We've had this experience and I've spoken about this on the podcast at four, which is like when Lily, my sister, uh, was growing up, my family was very, what do you want to to do because everyone in my family has a thing they were pretty much born wanting to do right and lily doesn't have that and she never has had this one thing and so we were very worried for a really long time that she was sort of adrift and purposeless and then as we watched her grow we realize that she takes joy in many things that her purpose is friendship and work and you community know service and the stuff that we find absolutely that was the other thing too is like lily would create a thing or do a wonderful thing for her community but we'd be like yeah but it's not your passion so fuck it and she'd be Like I found a soup kitchen and I'd be fucking whatever whatever just buy a can at the grocery store it seems like a waste of soup right so what we what really wrapped our heads around as a family is that she found a myriad of joy

0:38:58 Eli: In a myriad of places

0:38:58 Thomas: She's more like a normal kid and you guys are insane. Yeah, it

0:39:01 Eli: Is truly like that was the revelation our family had to have is that he is a normal person having a joyful experience

0:39:07 Thomas: Wasn't wasn't bequested a A fucking, you know, like a, yeah.

0:39:10 Eli: Who wasn't handed genius or our own perceived genius more More importantly, because Lily is brilliant in, in myriad of ways, but she wasn't like, I must go to the soup kitchen. And because she wasn'T like, I must elbow to the soap kitchen. We were like, well, then she must not really be in it to win it.

0:39:27 Thomas: Why is she Gollum?

0:39:28 Eli: Right.

0:39:28 Thomas: I don't know. I mean, I like it, but, oh, oh. Okay, cool.

0:39:30 Eli: If you know my sister, yeah. And

0:39:34 Thomas: Maybe she should be Gollim.

0:39:34 Eli: I stand by that Lily. I know

0:39:35 Thomas: There's her passion.

0:39:35 Eli: She listens to this podcast

0:39:36 Thomas: She's meant to.

0:39:37 Eli: And Lily, if you think you don't sound like that, I challenge you to not sound like that.

0:39:42 Tom: Yeah. Even thinking about like my buddy from back in high school, who was like, he would have been, like I said, he would've been a tough kid to find something to celebrate. But even as I say that, I'm like, yeah, but he wouldn't have, he wouldn'T have because he did, he did have pretty good marksmanship. I will say like, he got me right in the eye that he was aiming for. And I'm glad it was the left. It was not as good of an eye, but like he he played the guitar. Like he wasn't great at it, but you could have come up with something there. There right like it could have come up with something there he was actually quite good at math like that was the one subject he was good at

0:39:53 Thomas: Shot Shot my eye out real good.

0:39:58 Eli: Great aim. Yeah.

0:40:13 Thomas: I was just trying to think of a series of hobbies that involve hitting Tom in the eye with it in the end somehow. Guitar string snapped.

0:40:18 Eli: Lawn darts.

0:40:19 Thomas: Got me right in the eyes. But yeah.

0:40:16 Tom: Lawn charts yeah yeah lawn charts yeah that's uh that's a but yeah like I like there is something if there's nothing you're not paying attention to your kid like that's just fucking true you can't come up with anything you can come up With anything even as a team that you can think of to celebrate celebrate one thing that like hayley and I talk about too that I think is important in these situations is like fair is not the same as equal that's a big deal in a household with more than one kid fair is Not the same thing as equal the Way to treat Jake in this story is not necessarily going to be the Right way to Treat Katie so you have to celebrate something thing for katie that jake is doing without even thinking about it without putting any effort into it and you may have to address that but fair and equal are not the same thing

0:40:54 Eli: And Right, right. Yeah, yeah, And I will say as someone on the other side of it, right, once we sort of got over the what do you want to do and understood Lily for who she is, like there's 10 billion things to celebrate about my sister. I mean, she rules on a myriad of levels in a myriad of ways that I never will, right? The way that she is kind to strangers alone, right, without being forced to do it through a series of fundraisers, like the way that is like, is a behavior I will never reach the nadir of, right. It's one of those things where it's also, you have to adjust your expectations. One other thing I wanted to say is like when a kid comes to you with that kind of conversation, conversation I think it's really important to work through the tough part of that conversation with your partner in private first right like I think when your kid comes to you and says hey I feel like I'm being treated unfairly or unloved you need to be like you are so loved you are so awesome here are the things I praise about you but exactly right please hold for further ideas because

0:41:56 Thomas: Please hold oh yeah yeah

0:42:09 Eli: Then I just scooch on over to my partner and I'm like hey and like this is why I'm so so grateful to have Anna is that Anna has always had this insight, including about my sister. She has always Had a better insight about like what matters in those ways and tells me with my own sort of earn your rest ism, which is very ingrained in my, my psyche.

0:42:27 Tom: You know that that's a good point too because like when I was talking to hayley about this am I the asshole I will say that there was a huge part of me that was like that mom fucking crushed it she crushed it you know she she said she loved her she said let's make a plan then she she had the real talk. And then we had this conversation and I was like, I really reflected on a lot after Haley and I talked about it because like Haley had a very different reaction to it. And I was, like, yeah, but like you can tell kids that they suck, you know, like but like gently, but like, you can't at 16. You can tell people like, hey, man, you're not trying and trying matters. And if you don't put effort into shit, you are not going to actually achieve anything. That's a real conversation you can have, but also timing matters and talking to your partner to get like a different perspective on, Hey, I want to get this message across. Let's make sure we're both comfortable with the manner in which we get the message across, because

0:43:19 Tom: Then if you don't do that part, now you've like, maybe you had a good conversation with the kid, but now you got to fight with your spouse. You got to deal with like, you've just made your life worse.

0:43:27 Eli: Well, and that's the consequence this person is dealing with is like, my husband feels like I could have put it differently. And that means a lot, right? You know, one of the things that anna and I deal with quite a bit is like and I know you it's funny tom for me we often use the example of tom thinking no one can tell he's mad because I also think no one can tell when I'm mad and she'll be like hey you should literally today she was like you should go be frustrated in the other room because all

0:43:52 Thomas: Just gonna go on the record everyone can tell when I'm mad all the time just it's just like

0:43:54 Tom: I just I'm

0:43:56 Eli: The man yeah it's because of you saying I am mad right right now one

0:44:01 Tom: Can you can hear me breathing through my clenched jaw, but I don' know, whatever.

0:44:04 Eli: The many blessings yes uh like anna is much better at being like hey you're not hiding whatever you're going through or you're communicating badly right like again just like anana I am so convinced I have everyone fooled so much of the time in my life anna ist much betterat being like yeah nobody's buying that and I'm like what are you you talking about I'm a perfect I'm communicating perfectly and she's like no no you that guy ben and jerry's he like all before we go I'm reading a horror story in braille right now and I have a feeling something bad is gonna happen that is

0:44:28 Tom: Not even close. Oh, God.

0:44:54 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads .com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILf, tom smith who also wrote and recorded the intro music which is used with his permission this podcast is a production of daddy issues llc copyright 2022 all rights reserved

0:45:35 Eli: Stealing the podcast Thomas come with me oh the one who shot your eyeball out of your head

0:45:38 Tom: He is the kid who shot me in the eye yeah

0:45:41 Thomas: Lost focus is this oh okay you are talking about the the, am I the asshole, not your friend? I, sorry.

0:45:45 Eli: Talking about you and Remy.

0:45:46 Thomas: No, I, I yeah. Fair.

0:45:50 Eli: Know she listens to this podcast and Lily, if you think you don't sound like that, I challenge you to not sound like that.

0:45:56 Tom: You can tell kids that they suck, you