DOD162: Libido and Romance Mismatches

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Tom: To Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's going to start with a nice back rub. I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined, as always, by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:33 Thomas: Really?

0:00:38 Eli: Oh. I love a good back rub. I

0:00:41 Thomas: Promise things you're not delivering, Tom, because I, okay. Well, then come here.

0:00:43 Tom: Oh, I always deliver, Thomas Smith. I always delivered,

0:00:46 Thomas: I've been promised one back rub and I'm not receiving it immediately. Yeah.

0:00:47 Tom: My friend. These These hands are magic.

0:00:47 Eli: That's right. That's right. Next time I see you, Tom. Better, talking table massage, none of this chair massage bullshit. I want to be oil. I want to be slick, slick. I

0:01:02 Tom: These is no way you're walking away with complaints. Let me just offer that. You walk away, well, maybe gentle hands. I hear that sometimes gentle hands, gentle hands. I

0:01:08 Eli: Think you're

0:01:08 Thomas: I want We're doing requests, Tom. I want, like, 13 seconds of neck rub and then instantly you initiate sex with me. Like, that's what I, that's what I'd prefer.

0:01:19 Tom: Do You massagers, like, do you guys give massage, like, is that like a thing?

0:01:25 Thomas: Here and there.

0:01:26 Eli: I Do not as often as I should because I am, I want massages all the time, all the time. I am in constant horrifying amounts of shoulder and arm and neck pain all the time because we're hunched over a computer all day, obviously, and so I always want massagers, and as it's funny because this week's episode is kind of about that sort of give and take and understanding, it, thus Tom's excellent introduction, but like the thing I have had to learn is not a libido gap or a romance gap, which is what we're going to talk about today, but a massage gap, which is that, like, every time Anna is holding still on any surface ever, no matter how public the place, I can't just slide up to her like a walrus to a smoothened rock and ask

0:01:28 Thomas: Yeah, same.

0:01:38 Thomas: Oh, me too.

0:02:11 Tom: Dude.

0:02:11 Eli: For shoulder rubs, even though I want them all the time.

0:02:16 Tom: I you something funny, like when Haley and I first got together, because I also am a fan of the back rub. I don't need, like, the massage, just kind of want, like, a back rub, you know? And so Hayley and I would walk around in public, like shopping at Target or whatever, and what I realized at one point, I don't know how I came to, but is if I kind of position my shoulders back and unconsciously reach out and start rubbing my back it

0:02:39 Thomas: You've like done Pavlov with her somehow? Like, oh

0:02:42 Tom: Absolutely cracks me up. Though it is, it's just like that, like, so she, like, I'll just kind OF LIKE ME and then she's, she's of course realized it since then because now she'll call me out on it, but the first I don't know how many times we're just walking around, like, in the grocery store, whatever, she's looking at the cereal, I'm, you know, getting something else, and I'll just kind of, like, point my back and shoulders and just without even thinking, her arm reaches out and I'm like, I fucking love my life.

0:02:51 Thomas: Man.

0:02:59 Eli: Yep. 100 % Absolutely.

0:03:04 Tom: That's all I need, just fucking touch this thing. Oh,

0:03:05 Eli: Anna could be deactivating a bomb, and if I see a space that my shoulder could fit in between that red wire and the blue wire, I'm just gonna sneak that bad boy in there, try and get a little rub going. Yeah, well, he begun to walk on my back, which is kind of a thing.

0:03:17 Thomas: Have you guys ever had one of your small children try they wanted to give you a massage, in quotes?

0:03:23 Tom: No, uh-uh.

0:03:26 Thomas: Yeah, exactly. That's what they usually do. I'll be like, hey, jump up up on there, Phoebe, and it's like, okay, you know, it's not great, but like, I don't know, something little feet might distract from the constant, absolutely near-constant pain. It's a different sensation. It's fun. Oh

0:03:28 Eli: Yeah. Mm -hmm. Yeah, it different. Yeah, we are not anywhere close to the what -I -am -experiencing age with Max yet. So, like, the notion that I exist, let alone need a shoulder massage, is pretty buck wild. He would sooner go to, like the next door neighbors and massage their shoulders.

0:03:51 Thomas: It's tough one. Yeah. Only thing worse than your son giving the

0:04:05 Eli: And the only thing worse than your child has not yet reached the age where they realize you are your own complex being with your own thoughts and needs. It's the auto ads, in many ways our failure to see that you're a complex being who doesn't want a Verizon ad in Spanish in the middle of us talking. But there's a solution, and no, it's not us not doing auto ads on the podcast. I know what you're thinking: no, no, no. It's you heading over to patreon.com/dearolddads and giving us more money. Money plus money equals better for everybody. That's right, you give us more money, little's a dollar, you get an extended commercial-free version of every single show, plus bonus episodes when Tom decides to show up for those. Those are always a good time, and you get all of it over at patreon.com/dearolddads. That

0:04:06 Thomas: Neighbor a massage you know I Think Max can smell that you don't have an internal monologue and therefore are not actually a person.

0:05:01 Eli: Maybe.

0:05:01 Thomas: I think he

0:05:01 Eli: That's what it is. Maybe. He's a telepath and has just been sitting there being like, there's nothing in there. He's just I don't know No.

0:05:02 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. He's like what Eli?

0:05:08 Tom: I feel crazy. Are we allowed to move forward after the auto ant without first ripping into it? What What is happening?

0:05:14 Eli: Tom, I've abandoned ripping into it.

0:05:16 Thomas: Abandoned?

0:05:16 Tom: Right. Now have abandoned

0:05:17 Thomas: Yeah.

0:05:16 Eli: I were you the the last two two

0:05:18 Tom: Rip into it, as I like, that was not a threat, that was an actuality.

0:05:21 Thomas: All Right. Company meeting. Yuck.

0:05:22 Tom: Yeah.

0:05:23 Eli: Episodes ago. Yeah. Let's do it. I'm stealing the company.

0:05:27 Thomas: So We need to look through the bylaws. Eli swore, for some reason, I don't know why, he just decided this, that if we ever missed "Rip Into It" in an episode, he, he would never do it again. He would never. Now, here's what we did. We recorded one, a session that was a double length, like a white album, you dads. Then we made two episodes out of it. And Tom, you and I both forgot to say rip into it in our makeshift intros.

0:05:36 Eli: Correct.

0:05:49 Eli: You You told me we missed a rip into it.

0:05:53 Thomas: Well, we, I mean, so it wasn't in that second, because we made two parts out of it. So it wasn't in the second part, but it was one recording at

0:05:53 Eli: No

0:05:59 Tom: We have one record. I feel like this falls under some kind of, of technicality. What? What? What If

0:06:04 Thomas: At the very least, we can appeal this to the circuit courts.

0:06:06 Eli: They lead singers of Scientologists now, and we don't do rip into anymore. If want to rip into do it.

0:06:10 Thomas: What?

0:06:10 Tom: I rip into a, what if I rip, me, you can't control me, I have I'm a sovereign citizen.

0:06:15 Eli: Tom, you can Yeah.

0:06:15 Tom: You can detain me. I'm

0:06:16 Eli: I'm not ripping into it. I'm traveling on the land always.

0:06:19 Thomas: You know,

0:06:17 Tom: Gonna rip into I have a quick sovereign citizen funny anything that just happened to me. I know we'll record an actual episode about stuff but real fast. I

0:06:20 Thomas: Yeah.

0:06:25 Eli: A funny thing

0:06:27 Thomas: Good. That gets me out of the very awkward socialist interaction of, Tom, it's just not the same when you do it, though. It's just.

0:06:32 Tom: Know it's not I know, I cannot rip into it. The the into is my, I can rip and I can it but it's the into. I can't rip into. No, I didn't feel it, though. I felt like I was bringing, bringing the wrong energy to it.

0:06:32 Eli: That's Right. Too

0:06:34 Thomas: I mean, yeah, yeah buddy, go, give it a try, but yeah, it just, nah, it's not the same. It's too much, too much energy. Yeah.

0:06:44 Tom: Yeah. It's a lot. It's

0:06:43 Eli: Much heat too much eat. Yeah. Hell

0:06:45 Thomas: Right. Tell us your sovereign citizen story.

0:06:47 Tom: I work in real estate, specifically, I work for a title insurance company, very briefly. The title insurance company does all the middleman stuff, including searching the land records to understand who the buyers, sellers, liens, all this stuff. Is all that's boring? Who cares? The only reason I'm telling you is that on occasion, fucking crazy sovereign citizen lunatics will contact us.

0:07:10 Eli: Yeah, they will. Right.

0:07:11 Tom: And it is a glory to be like, because like half the staff has no idea what the fuck is going, going on with these people, and we are not a public-facing business, we're business to business, so at no time ever do we interface. Like, nobody calls the title companies like, hi, I'm Jim, I need a title insurancing, like, that's not how it works. It's all business to businesso it happened, and happened today. Somebody sent this fucking amazing crazy person screed email including their entire, entire geological chart. It was amazing, and it got moved, so the guy that got that, got it didn't know what it was, and he's like, I'm not sure what this is, and he sent it over to our legal guy, and so it goes to, it goes to this guy who's like, he's a big fucking deal, like he is our state council for Illinois Like, he is a big shit. Should not go to this guy unless, like, but it never got to me. So then I get copied on my state council's reply, which was perfect, by the way, but I immediately be like, halt. Nope. We're not replying.

0:07:28 Thomas: Yeah.

0:07:43 Eli: Yep. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

0:08:14 Tom: Absolutely. I picked up the phone. I'm like, dude, you cannot, what you're going to do is you're gonna take his phone number. You're going to block it. You'RE going to take his email. YouRE going to block IT and send it to spam. You'RE gONNA tell everybody in your area, block it, this guy will eat your life if you don't. But I then take the email and I fucking save it in my repository of insanity that I get. I used to, to get certified letters from these people with like copies of maritime law shit and they would be, so they would sometimes show up when I had a physical location and be like, I don't know, you guys owe me this

0:08:20 Thomas: Yeah.

0:08:27 Eli: Oh They're the best. I Tom

0:08:44 Thomas: But the property's not in the ocean. Why would maritime?

0:08:47 Tom: Yeah. It would, any of it. Thomas Smith, why are you asking why with sovereign citizenry.

0:08:51 Thomas: It's the best.

0:08:53 Tom: It's amazing.

0:08:53 Eli: Do do the exact same thing with Christian cease and desists, because we've gotten like eight of them at this point, and a cease and desist from someone who doesn't understand the law is actually the funniest thing. It's it's sad for them because they don't know you actually have in your hands and in your mind something funnier than the podcast I did about your movie, but instead you wasted on me. I printed out, put it on my desk wall, like, you really, you're really wrecking it for yourself.

0:08:54 Tom: Oh Yes. Yeah.

0:09:07 Thomas: Yeah, that's amazing.

0:09:22 Tom: It, I used to have a file folder full of like, like crazy divorce decrees, insane death certificates I know, that's ghoulish but like

0:09:28 Eli: It's Amazing.

0:09:28 Thomas: How How many times you've been divorced from Tom? No, I'm just kidding.

0:09:32 Tom: Like like, you would see these divorce decries where people could tell, like, how acrimonious it was People

0:09:36 Thomas: You never earned your rest in our marriage.

0:09:40 Eli: Oh

0:09:41 Tom: Were like, I get like seven of the, of the dishes, you get eight of this dish I mean, like it would get, and I would highlight that because it made me laugh. You

0:09:45 Thomas: Oh, yeah.

0:09:46 Eli: Yeah, and There's that famous picture of the couple dividing up their Beanie Baby collection that

0:09:52 Thomas: Oh yeah. That's a good one. There's also a famous Uh, that where the guy is like, I just did a divorce proceeding and they argued over custody of the parrot, and they agreed that neither them can teach him bad words about the other, whatever He's like, I went to law school for this. Yeah.

0:09:54 Eli: Pops up on the memes.

0:10:09 Tom: That's fucking great. Oh

0:10:05 Eli: Yeah. It's because the thing about sovereign citizens, I feel like we've talked about this. So forgive me if I'm repeating myself. The thing about sovereign citizens is that the legal system fails you as an individual in your life four or five times, right? Or five times you turn to the state and you're like, hey, the state, I'm scared and I'm alone and I pay taxes. And like, I grew up from being a little kid singing songs about how you would protect me.

And some dead-eyed, open-mouthed fucking trough beast goes, you gotta fill out form 48B, and you're like, hey, I'm scared, please help me. No, I'm bored. Right? You have two options in that, right? First is you sort of just cut it off, right? You just circumcise that part of your, your life, and you go like, oh well, you know what, 2020 not a super fun year, but we're not thinking about it, right? Just whoop, whoop, you just cut it off. Nobody stole your company, it's fine. Zip, right? You snip it off, and you can't apply it to the rest of your life, or, or you go crazy, right? You actively go crazy

0:11:19 Thomas: Is that an option maybe I should have turned sovereign citizen with Yeah.

0:11:21 Eli: And that's what sovereign citizenship is, right?

0:11:23 Thomas: You

0:11:23 Eli: It's just you being like, like, well, hey, the system's broken, so either the system is broken and there's nothing I can do about it and, like, the well of despair awaits me, or secretly, if I type my name in all capital letters, then the company

0:11:38 Thomas: Know, I, I get it, Eli, because if I start talking about like how the actual law worked with Andrew Steele and the company, it's, it starts to sound like I'm making it up, like, oh, it doesn't actually matter. Anything that did, all that mattered is if, like, if bottom line suffered, like it has no, it doesn't matter. Oh, what is everything you did? Yeah, it sounds pretty bad. Does that have any impact on anything? Well, not if there's not some fucking businessy thing that you can point to, that a business, that business didn't business right. And then the law is like, well, maybe we care. I don't know. Do we?

0:11:46 Eli: Yeah.

0:11:59 Eli: No. Yeah. Right. Law, theoretically, is saying, right, and that's where the sovereign citizens always sort of hit the wall, and why the videos are so fun to watch, right? Like, until you get to the wall of the law, right? Just be like, hey, this very common sense thing is happening and I would like a little bit of justice, right? I'm a little scared, it's a little big deal, like, I need some help. And they say to you, okay, someone down the line will give you that help. Do you have a hundred thousand dollars and

0:12:13 Thomas: It's just for the first month, yeah, you

0:12:40 Eli: You're like, "What?" And they're, they're like, "Yeah, we will absolutely get in front of a grownup who will do the right thing, and we'll enforce that for you, and it will be okay. But you have to pay a hundred thousand dollars to get there." And you're like, "Okay, but what about..." And they're, like, "Oh, hey, hey, if you can't afford a hundred thousand dollars, how about small claims court?

0:12:58 Thomas: Just go fuck yourself Yeah.

0:13:00 Eli: You just go to small claims court and that's just you talking from your heart, and you're, like, oh, that sounds amazing. I was really worried. And they're like, oh, sorry, you can only get seven hundred dollars small claims scar and you're like, but it's, if it was seven hundred dollars, I wouldn't be so scared and afraid and really, really worried, and they'd be like, "Yeah."

0:13:07 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:13:16 Eli: No. I know But like, here's the thing, sometimes poor people drive, and so we cannot, you know We gotta spend the time and resources. I think you understand why.

0:13:15 Thomas: Why would I even fucking be here

0:13:23 Tom: Oh God Well And like, not to go too much further afield on the same topic, but like, Hayley, we and I have looked into, uh, lawsuits as a result of some, like, of the medical, yeah

0:13:36 Eli: Something going on with Haley, is she okay? They

0:13:37 Tom: I know, right? Yeah. And

0:13:38 Thomas: Someone steal your health or what? Oh come on, I thought it was funny.

0:13:40 Tom: What's crazy is it's not even like like Someone

0:13:42 Thomas: I mean, all her

0:13:43 Tom: Someone did steal our health, man. They locked us out, they got fucking changed all her passwords, but like, for real, I would just want just fucking Somebody's got a two-factor authentication, they're not sharing the fucking code, but like, we've looked into mail and we've

0:13:47 Eli: Changed

0:13:50 Thomas: Biological passwords trying

0:13:58 Eli: Just pressing his thumb on Haley's forehead, you feel better. Yeah.

0:14:02 Thomas: Oh

0:14:03 Tom: But like, what they tell us, like, part, part of the difficulty we will have if we're able to proceed forward with malpractice is because she wasn't working before, they're basically gonna be like, oh, there's like, essentially like, we ruined your entire fucking life, but like, if you weren't working your ability to prove damages Right?

0:14:20 Eli: Yeah.

0:14:12 Thomas: No Oh but Yeah we don't count We've never, we have a long history of not caring about women's labor in this country, so there's no value to that. Awesome.

0:14:25 Eli: Yes.

0:14:24 Tom: So It's, it's fucking wild, it's like Yeah, like, her entire life was, was completely ruined for years and still continues to be ruined. Like, you might be able to get some portion of your medical bills back, but like It's not a big enough thing, you, for attorneys to take on, on, on contingency because the reward might not be that big, and you're like, what about her life? Like, what about, like, that, like, the fact that she doesn't, can't and what It's just all of it's just trash, and they're just like, yeah, maybe, like, there's one guy who's like, maybe, and I'm like, oh, fuck.

0:14:27 Thomas: Oh Yeah. Boy

0:14:36 Eli: Yeah. Yeah.

0:14:47 Thomas: That's very similar to, yeah, well

0:14:56 Eli: And everyone looks at you with that, do you wanna go crazy about it look, because they know they all aware and you're not allowed to say it's a, it is a, and that's the best thing, right? That's why we have the law where you're not allowed to, like, yell at government employees or people at the post office. I have a story related to that that I'll get to in a second, but like, we have laws specifically in place for all those organizations, like extra punishment for raising your voice to this person, because we all know if you could yell at someone crime-free about this, we'd all be screaming all

0:15:27 Thomas: But that, you're you're talking government stuff, this government's a different story, you know, like this is

0:15:31 Eli: Law, too, law, weird judge dance where it's like, all stand for the cop who's in a dress, and everybody sit down, don't interrupt me, I'm a cop in a address, and like, I can't emphasize enough, the cop in the dress can really send you to jail for 90 days. Right? Not, not like, I mean, this is, we saw, I don't know if you guys follow the Young Thug trial.

0:15:35 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Oh my God, uh

0:15:50 Tom: Yeah. No. What?

0:15:55 Thomas: A little, little show called Opening Arguments is covered at a time or two. Sure. Or Gavel Gavel as well

0:15:58 Eli: Has covered it. Yes, which is where I found out about it. So I don'T know why I asked you, Thomas. It's so funny. I get so much of my information from Thomas's shows, but also Thomas is one of my closest friends. So on a regular basis, I will repeat Thomas's content back to him and he'll be like, yeah, I'm glad you enjoyed that program.

0:16:00 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. I'd be like, you came on my show and did that, like it's actually double. Yeah.

0:16:19 Tom: Sorry.

0:16:17 Eli: That was you. The young thug thing, this is about judges, I promise, it makes sense. So the young Thug Trial, the judge there, he did a bad, right? Is that he grabbed one of the witnesses and had ex parte communication, which means him and the lawyer for the cops got him in a room and things. That's that guy. And they said things, and you are super not supposed to do that. And then when the defense lawyer found out about it, he was like, hey man, did you do some ex parte? And again, because they're boss cop and they could just be like, you go to jail for 90 days. He was like, tell me who told you that I was doing ex parte. And the guy was like no, I'm not going to do that. And then he was like you go jail. You go to criminal jail.

0:16:36 Thomas: The prosecutor Yep. A woman, but Yeah.

0:16:58 Eli: And I can't emphasize enough, even in a situation where the court reporter started to text her boss and be like, hey, you might want to get down here and fuck him. He still went to jail for a minute, right? That lawyer still went like, all right, I'm in cuffs, I was gonna drive home today, hope parking allows you to have more than 24 hours. And again, this, the whole system, right, is because if for a second, if for a second we were honest, we, we would tear the flesh from our bodies and run screaming through the streets, free in the way we were when a child cried for the first time. You know what I'm saying? Like, you just you

0:16:53 Thomas: Yeah. Oh Yeah. Whole system's out of order Yeah. Well, it's also because we're, most of America is fine when this is happening to people, they, they don't like. They're like, oh yeah, we like that. You can't do anything about it. And there's no, absolutely no solutions ever. I'm putting in a reminder for parenting story. I had a really good, parenting. Uh, I, I had, it was a thing where I was like, Oh, I need to make a bit about this. I need, I needed to do a tweet or a video. And I was like, ah, I am just too tired. So I'm just going to tell a story. It turns out, I've um, been prepping my child for, and never ending bureaucracy. And, uh I bet a lot of everyone, one, maybe you do the same thing without knowing it, and so that'll be my parenting story. I'm just putting a reminder for myself here. Yeah.

0:17:43 Eli: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh That's for the end. All right, well, stay tuned everybody, for the patron, I'll gave you another great example, and then we can get to the topic at hand, which we're somehow going to pull around to, uh, libido and romance caps, maybe, maybe, or maybe we, we talk about sovereign citizens the whole time. So no

0:18:13 Thomas: Yeah. Didn't

0:18:15 Tom: Teasing it for the patrons.

0:18:27 Tom: I'm sorry I even brought it up at this point. I derailed the shit out of it.

0:18:28 Eli: I love it. I love it. Tom, it's important. So here's the thing, I had jury duty last week. These gents were sweet enough to let me, uh, gone, and then we recorded on a different day. It worked out great. But I go to jury duty and the lady gets up and the first thing she says is, "Interrupting the process of jury duty is a class misdemeanor punishable by up to two years in prison. Anyone who interrupts this process or makes to stop me from doing my, my job is liable for that offense. And we are in a courthouse. You'll be charged and put in jail today." Then she does her spiel, which I get in the middle of the spiel several times. She makes jokes, not ha ha funny jokes, but you know, jokes and no one laughs. And she goes, come on, lighten up people. Multiple times. He said, come lighten up.

0:19:14 Tom: Really?

0:19:14 Eli: Here's the thing. You actually don't get to to say, like, that's exactly right! You get, what if I laugh too hard and you decide I need to go to jail for two years?

0:19:15 Thomas: You just threatened us with jail Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, then it becomes that famous Phoebe situation where I was a hostage because she made a joke early on and I laughed, and she was like, why are you laughing? I was like, you made a joke. She's like, yeah, but it's only a little bit funny, it wasn't that much funny.

0:19:34 Eli: Mm -hmm. Yes, exactly.

0:19:37 Tom: Yes.

0:19:38 Thomas: So it's like my exact laugh of decibels and then

0:19:39 Tom: How dare you?

0:19:40 Eli: The law is like being Phoebe's parent, based on what we can tell so far. Yeah,

0:19:46 Thomas: Someone like Trump ruins the system and you're like, oh, that's like being Remy's parent. It can get worse. I get it. Okay. Yeah.

0:19:53 Eli: But that's the other thing, too, right? Like, even the Trump thing, and again, I'm sorry to draw the lens out so far, he tried to overthrow the government, right? If I shove a postal worker, I would be in jail immediately, and he was like, "I'm the king of America now," and we're just like, "Well, I guess we all gotta, everyone gather for trial number 783," and ah, fuck, you know what happened is you, you got to cop an address that he is best friends with, so that cop and address actually said that you are allowed to throw it, but don't worry, I know what you're thinking. I know you're thinking super

0:20:23 Thomas: Well, I make this point all the time too will be stories of, um, misconduct, prison guard, just absolute horrible stuff, or, uh, prosecutors and police or whatever framing someone, making stuff up, doing horrible shit, abusing an innocent man, and the thing the, that happens, the consequence that happens when that's unearthed, you would think it would be, if you were a kid you'd be like, "Wow, then all they, all march those people off to fucking the gas chamber."

0:20:50 Eli: Jail.

0:20:50 Thomas: Right, they're just so Just Totally just execute them on the hanging public. No, the consequence is maybe the innocent person doesn't get put to death, maybe, or they still do because of our conservative Supreme Court.

0:20:51 Eli: Right. Yeah. Or

0:20:52 Tom: Right.

0:21:03 Thomas: And that's it. That's the thing that we never think about. That's, I think a lot of people assume with some of these cases where they're like, "Wow, innocent man with a frame," that, like, "Oh," and then they went and followed up and saw, like, "Why did that," no, they're just like, "Oh, I guess we didn't get that one. Okay." Everyone still works where they worked before that.

0:21:02 Eli: They super still do fucking

0:21:05 Tom: No.

0:21:22 Eli: You guys remember Making a Murderer? How big a deal Making a Murderer was? So

0:21:24 Thomas: Yeah. It turned out to be wrong. But yeah.

0:21:26 Tom: Oh, yeah.

0:21:27 Eli: Wrong, right, but like the thing with the blood and all that shit that's fucking weird, right? So little looking into it happened after that where they were just like, "Ah, what are you gonna do?" Netflix with their, with their cameras pointed in directions I, I don't have all day. I mean, just truly, like, I think about, I, Thomas, I think it was your show. You talked about the Innocence Project. No, you know what? It was NPR had someone on from the Inocence Project, and if you don't, but if you think about the innocence project for too long, you die. You die.

0:21:39 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:22:01 Eli: I have a buddy, a fellow magician who works at the InnoCence Project and we don't talk about his work ever because it's he'll be like, how's podcasting? I'll be Like, it's good. People were mad at me because I said broccoli was a vegetable, but technically it's a root. And he's like, cool. They keep murdering my clients.

0:22:22 Eli: They just murder them for being black and there's nothing I can do. And I'm like, uh, so card tricks.

0:22:27 Tom: Fucking shit.

0:22:28 Thomas: Cool, cool.

0:22:30 Eli: But look, but hey, guys, guys. We're not here to talk about it.

0:22:33 Thomas: We could Audible and I could just do the Remy story if you want, or if we have enough time.

0:22:37 Eli: No,

0:22:36 Tom: Yeah, I was going to say we're 23 minutes in.

0:22:37 Eli: No. I'm committed. We're going to, Tom, we can do this in 20 minutes, Right? Right. Chop, Chop, romance gap.

0:22:41 Thomas: You want to try to squeeze this in to try? Oh,

0:22:44 Eli: Three, two, one, go. Fast. No.

0:22:46 Tom: Actually, like, what do you want to, like,

0:22:48 Eli: Big wind-ups, Tom. You gotta get right.

0:22:50 Tom: Well, want, I want to return to the conversation that we had the other day that's a corollary to the consent conversation, because, Thomas, you brought up the libido gap, the difference in sex drive that can occur within couples. And we didn't get into that too much, but I think it's something that very often occurs. And then I specifically want to talk about that because I think it's important, you our perspective, from the male perspective, because, as you noted, very often that gap exists for men. Men are more often than not to be the ones for whom that gap is felt more dearly. Right. I a couple of things that I think are interesting to talkabout. Out. And I made some notes in advance of this conversation. So you

0:23:00 Eli: No.

0:23:30 Eli: Made some notes for this conversation, Tom. So I was I was thinking about this conversation last night because I, I, I excited for it. Me and Anna got to talking about it, and I was like, "Oh, I'm gonna make, I'm going to do a Tom, and I'm to make notes." Yeah.

0:23:32 Tom: Made some notes, Eli Bosnick.

0:23:42 Thomas: Oh, but he didn't hit the page count he wanted, and so that's why he hijacked the episode for 20 minutes

0:23:43 Eli: That's why I had to fill it with 20 minutes of legal legal

0:23:47 Thomas: And then at the end he can say, "Oh, I didn't get all my notes." These rustling papers. Ah.

0:23:51 Eli: Rantings. Yeah.

0:23:50 Tom: So The issue specifically of libido and sex, I really only have two bullet points. And what I wanted to start with is that I that very often when I think men do this more often than than women do when sex is viewed as the only objective in their sort of like in why why they're, that was my joke about like giving a back rub, right? Like if I'm giving my wife a back rub so that I can transition that into sex, rather than I am giving my life a back rub as a way to build connection, you just, I know. So, I think sometimes there's a, there's a really sort of like poisonous dynamic.

And when I say poisonous, I mean, the end result is very often less sex overall. Right. When sex is the only objective to the physical interaction, when it doesn't feel like the intention is to connect in some way, to appreciate, to share space, to like even create a mood, like, right. Like very often, like yeah, like I'm trying to create a mood. But like, if you're not open to the idea that what What you're really going to do here is maybe create a mood, maybe not create a mood, but you're going to be happy with the connection when the goal is just, I want to put it in you really, really often. The result is less sex.

0:24:11 Thomas: Right the tip oh no

0:24:22 Eli: Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

0:25:04 Eli: And that moments that would just be moments of connection, right? Moments of fear for your partner because they're afraid to accept and return that affection because it's going to turn into sex. So I, I think I'm unique in that I have been on both sides of this, right? For most of my life, I was the higher libido partner, uh, and then when I got into the, like, kink space, I was the low libido partner.

0:25:12 Tom: Yes.

0:25:29 Thomas: Yeah.

0:25:30 Eli: And really didn't, and especially as a male, really didn't know how to handle it, right? Because the idea that a guy wouldn't want to have sex all the time, in all moments, everywhere, at all times was, like, hugely about my identity and really scary. And one of the things that, that sort of, what I realized that what it was incredibly useful to understand is that, like, you just asking your partner for a thing and they say yes and feel safe and chill and cash money in that time, right? You do, then becomes, is this person testing for sex right now, right? And I think, Tom, you hit it, hit the nail right on the head, which is that the, of the most important things to do is get yourself out of the headspace of sex is penis and vagina, heteronormative sex, right? Queer couples sort of automatically have this, but, like, this is something that I had to learn sort of once I had queer friends, which is that, like, I always thought sex was when a penis goes in a vagina or a penis goes in abut or a

0:26:03 Tom: Yeah.

0:26:05 Thomas: We're Just Gonna have To Put the, the whole show at the end of the show at this point. You guys, come on. There's, like, we just got to copy and paste the entire show for after the credits. Oh,

0:26:32 Eli: Right. Right. Or a butt goes into another butt, right? And and in wasn't until I had queer friends who were like, you know, because they would say, like, they hooked up.

0:26:41 Thomas: God. Still Doing It. But Goes Into Another. Yeah.

0:26:47 Eli: And I'll, I'll own my own, like, fucking ignorance here. I had queer friends who are both women and they were like, "Oh yeah, we slept together," and I was like, "Oh, you guys had sex?" And my friend recognized me being an idiot and was like, "That means a different thing for different people." And I was like, "Because you don't have..." and she was like, "I know, I know." And he was like, "So how could you even, how could he's physically?" Right. But like when you get your head around that, there are people as stupid as me, Tom. There are people stupid as we they're out there.

0:26:43 Tom: Oh my God. Oh my god. I'm just laughing. I'm like, wait, what? Like, like without penetration, obviously there's no sex involved, right?

0:27:19 Thomas: There are dozens of us Yeah. Right.

0:27:21 Eli: That's true. So the words that came out of my, I'm going to say, 20 year old mouth where I guess lesbians never have sex because for me, I was just like so understanding that sex can be something other than the heteronormative conception of sex. And that if you are the high libido partner, what you are craving is not always, sometimes is, but is not always orgasm, right? There are ways, there are a variety of ways for you to have that intimacy and closeness with your partner. And all of them are about communication, right. All of them are about establishing. And again, this is a thing that queer couples do sort of automatically because the rules of sex aren't ingrained into our culture and sort of pornified into every possible connection you ever have starting in early childhood, but, right, but like a conversation about what is going to happen during any given contact is something that's really important to do. And I think

0:27:22 Tom: Yeah.

0:27:41 Thomas: So if you're Tom's dad, you draw, you know, you draw diagrams famously.

0:28:27 Eli: Right. You draw a picture or you show your son a video, right? But I think most Most straight people, and I can only speak for myself here, so gentlemen, by all means disagree, grew up thinking of sex in the bases system, right?

0:28:30 Thomas: Right.

0:28:32 Tom: Okay, all right, oh.

0:28:42 Thomas: Yeah, no, totally. I was gonna bring that up a

0:28:45 Tom: Yeah, yeah.

0:28:45 Eli: As a cis straight man, you were told, much like getting a home run is the goal of baseball, having vaginal sex was the goal of sex. And the bases along the way were various levels of achievement towards that thing, right? And that mindset often means that when there is a libido difference, right, doesn't matter what else happens in that intimacy space. If penis and vagina sex doesn't happen, assuming that that's the kind of couple you are, right? If that doesn't happen, then sex didn't happen and one can feel turned down. Yeah.

0:28:45 Tom: Yeah.

0:29:23 Tom: I want to add one to that too, is that I think, I think it's important to understand, I think, like, explicitly rather than implicitly, that, like, sex is never about the orgasm. Like, you, if it was, nobody would put forth any effort to have sex. You just, if all you want to do is get an orgasm, you'd masturbate. It would take you less time, less energy, effort, less. Sex is inherently about other pieces of the experience, but it's about other piece of the experiences that you want to have with another person. I thinking about this the other day in advance of this episode. Touching somebody else's body with my hand doesn't physically feel good. My hand does not become an erogenous zone all of a sudden because it's cupping a breast. And when I'm holding a gallon of milk, it's not, right? A multimodal experience that has a whole feedback loop system. That's a part of it. So not like if I cup a breast, like my

0:29:48 Thomas: Better. Orgasm. Oh, okay.

0:29:53 Eli: He

0:30:20 Tom: Hand feels all of A Sudden Good.

0:30:20 Thomas: This good. Are you practicing to have the unhorniest sex talk with your kids possible? Listen, it's a multi-modal, an interactive CD-ROM. I don't know what words you're using, man. Like, yeah, yeah.

0:30:31 Eli: Just wants to say it in a way that Donovan the computer kid will understand. Thomas.

0:30:25 Tom: But It's well, Well, but like when we don't recognize that, I think we fall into the bases category, right? We fall into that exact thing that you were talking about. We fall in to like there's a goal, there's an objective, and the objective is to do these things to or with somebody rather than I have some need that I'd like to fulfill. And recognizing that that need is unlikely to be purely a physical need, that that's part of it for sure. Sure. But if it was just about coming, you could get that done much quicker and without buying anyone dinner or giving anyone a back rub or, you know, making jokes. But like with much less effort. I know

0:30:36 Eli: Yes. Yeah. Right. No.

0:30:37 Thomas: Oh, this is the start of an infomercial.

0:31:13 Tom: That that was like gross, toxic, masculine shit. I'm just making a joke.

0:31:14 Thomas: No, Tom, this better be the

0:31:15 Tom: But like it

0:31:15 Thomas: Start. The start of your infomerical. Must be an easier way. Tom in black and white.

0:31:18 Eli: Jerking Off. Yeah. Yeah.

0:31:21 Thomas: Yeah.

0:31:19 Tom: Just just not about coming. It's just it's it's about other things. I think we have to make our partners, feel you like it's about other things. And I think a lot of dudes approach women in their lives as objectives, as something that they're trying to get as an, and rather than the reality that like, there's something else I want out of that exchange. That's not just popping off, right? Cause it's, it can't just be that.

0:31:23 Eli: Yes. Right. Right. Agree. I also think there's two things I want to add to that. One, I think we don't admit how common that misunderstanding is, right? Like I think we don't admit how many men out there are like, no, the point is coming. I want a come. It's not sex unless I come and I want it. Come right. Right. Are people out there behaving in that manner, even if they like like intellectually understand that. So I think that's really important. Right. Then I also think the secondary part is, like, I think we're in a unique position, right? As non -experts just given advice to mostly other men, but men, women, non -identified people, right, to talk about what to do in those scenarios. Right? Because I think, and, and you know, Thomas said something that's really, I fantastically insightful, which is that I think the common wisdom about out a sex gap right now is poly or sucks to suck, right? Look there.

0:32:42 Thomas: Oh, that was in our chat. But yeah, okay.

0:32:42 Eli: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, um, think that is more of a problem among good men than we care to acknowledge, right? Look, I think it's very easy, I did this on the last episode, I was like, oh, poly's the solution, right? But, like, I think it's also worth acknowledging that for many people, Tom included, that's the end of a relationship, right? Suggestion of someone being poly or the suggestion of opening a marriage might be someone with the lower libido's greatest fear, right? And so how to handle that in scenarios where someone is not interested in opening the relationship or does not have an inclination towards polyamory, I think is really important, right? Because I think the conversation just ends at, for most men, and certainly for our generation, "don't rape your wife," right? Thing that only started being illegal in the 70s.

0:33:33 Tom: I want to, I that. I actually think that there are other, if not solutions, there are other things that you can do. Um, there's a libido mismatch that that I've been thinking about, like the first is like, if there's a libido mismatch, you're only going to make it worse. If you treat sex and your, your partner as an objective, you are trying to reach like that is the unsexiest way I think for for people to feel. That feels like, I would like to use you. Why are you not letting me use you? If you treat somebody as, it's important that we connect, and I'm okay connecting sexually and non -sexually, I think you are much more likely to create space for sex to happen more frequently.

Maybe there's still going to be a gap, but I think people try to close the gap very often in really negative ways. They harass, they nag, they They guilt. It's also true that both people in a libido gap relationship are having very different experiences and they're not talking about the difference in those experiences. So they're not having empathy for what that means for each other. What I mean by that is very often often the person who has the lower sex drive is probably having as much sex as they would like to have, right?

Because almost any time that they're going to be, you available, that higher sex drive person is more likely to take that opportunity. I'm not saying it's always that way, but it's more likely, right. So the person with the lower sexual drive is likely to have sex drive, is probably not feeling sexually frustrated at all. They are not feeling that that lack of sexual intimacy that the other partner is feeling. Vice versa, though, very often the person with the lower sex drive is feeling pressure and shame.

0:33:40 Eli: Right.

0:34:02 Eli: Guilt.

0:34:26 Eli: Right. Yeah.

0:35:18 Tom: And if we're not honest about saying, hey, this is how this gap very often makes people feel. And the other thing I would suggest, too, is if you're the higher sex drive person in a relationship, I do think it's worth interrogating emotionally for yourself how other ways can I fill some of those needs if part of what sex is doing for me is filling a need for connection, emotional, you know, needs, an with your partner, a thing that oftentimes only you to share, there are other things that you can do to fill some some of those other non-sexual needs that can sort of blunt the edge of that gap as well.

And again, create more space for better connections. So like, I don't think it's always just, Hey, sucks to suck. I get what it is. It's just a joke, but Like, it's not always just sucks to suck. It is like, all right, well, like, maybe there are other ways for you to feel intimate. There are other way for you feel connected. There other ways to create space. There are ways to show different kinds of appreciation or ask for different kinds of appreciation to be shown back to you, so that, like, if you still have a libido mismatch for whatever reason, it doesn't feel like rejection, because that's the other thing I think that that sucks for people or stings for people, is if you have a higher libido than the other person, you are likely very often experiencing a kind of rejection, but you don't have to experience emotional rejection. You can bridge that gap almost completely without sex.

0:36:09 Eli: Yeah.

0:36:52 Thomas: Yeah, I think this is like a micro economics course, Tom, like all that makes a whole lot of sense, logically speaking. When you get to in practice, the Fed is going to adjust that interest rate and you're like, I don't know what the fuck that means. You know, I mean, I'm not a big fan of the Fed, but I'm a big believer in the Fed. I don't know what that the cash reserve amount. Like, what is that? I don't know.

Is this is this the same class I took a second ago? I agree with everything you're saying, but it's It's so I would say it's very difficult for who are having this mismatch to be on the same page in that way, because along the way, and I think you know, just but along the way, there's so many opportunities for feeling of shame, feeling of too much pressure, feeling like all those feelings and those things create that bitterness and that gap a little bit, which I think that if you're in a perfect situation of like, like, communication, understanding that you're talking about, Tom, and we should all strive to be in that situation in our relationships, of course.

But that people I've ever like with a relationship or given advice to or talk like they're just not in that situation. They don't have that like openness or that, you know, like to where they can they can kind of isolate the variables and be like, oh, hey, I is a mismatch here and here's how we'll solve this. There's so much else involved.

You can never be sure, like, is the sex drive the problem or is the lack of sex drive on one person's part because of some other relationship issue? Is someone not pulling

0:36:52 Tom: Right?

0:36:52 Eli: I

0:38:14 Tom: I

0:38:14 Thomas: Their weight? Is someone Not doing like, it is very difficult to cleanly separate all that. And lots of times when people think they might have a drive difference, one person might not be happy, but it also might not be that. And then it's like really hard to know the difference. Also very difficult. I can tell you as, as the higher, always higher sex drive, like, you know how we did all time quarterback. No, you don't. And back in school, this is a good joke for some people. Back in school, you'd be like, all right, I'm all -time QB when you play on the playground, like football.

0:38:43 Eli: Remember this? Yes.

0:38:44 Thomas: Yeah, it's like I'm always higher sex drive. I guess I called it at some point. I don't know when that happened, but officially. And it does wear on you. It's not easy, especially with all else going on in everyone's life. And this is, I want to emphasize very much, this not a problem in my current relationship. Are Things quite good.

But I've been in that situation where it's like it wears on you to maybe even in your mind, put in the effort that you're describing, Tom, and put in effort for connection and then still feel rejected at the end of it. And it's very hard to not resent that.

And once you do, or once that happens a few times, then the situation is so so fraught that that interaction, things that maybe you didn't mean as like, oh, this was just to get, I'll get interpreted that way. Or maybe you are giving off a vibe of everything you're doing is like, okay, does this earn sex? Does this earn, like, it's so easy for that conversation to get fraught and unclear and muddy, even with like good motives on each side.

So it's a really, really difficult problem. And I think that, like, having, I guess on one hand, I think what what you're describing, Tom, is a bit of an idealized situation with, like, very, almost like one of those perfect information situations, you know, but it's also something we should, like, strive for. It's a, I think it's a lesson that, like, to be able to be in that situation of open communication with your partner is always going to set you up better for any problems. So that's a reminder we should all be trying for that, but I just don't think think it's always so

0:38:44 Eli: Yeah. Oh.

0:38:44 Tom: Do? Remember This Yeah. Yeah.

0:40:15 Eli: See,

0:40:15 Thomas: Simple in the real world, yeah.

0:40:16 Eli: I, where I, I disagree, Thomas, because I think the big mistake that people make, and feel free to push back if I'm just misunderstanding what you're saying, I think the mistake people make when they hear that is like, well, I can't communicate perfectly, so that's hard. But what I was hearing from Tom, and what I think men don't do enough, is they don't communicate the feelings around it. They just go through the cycle over and over and over again.

0:40:42 Tom: Exactly. And know one thing that I think is true, and, and tell me if you disagree, but, like, when you're dating somebody, one of the things that you're doing in dating somebody is you are collectively looking to make sure that you are a good match in many areas of your lives, right? Are we a good matching intellectually? Are we do have the same sense of humor? And you're also looking for the same thing sexually, right? You're looking to make sure you enjoy the same things. And you are also sort of feeling out probably like how, what you know, how is this going to work? Is our frequency, is our libido likely to match? But the truth is, if you're with somebody long term, there is almost certainly going going to be moments of libido mismatch.

0:40:42 Eli: Yes.

0:41:21 Thomas: Yeah.

0:41:22 Eli: People

0:41:22 Tom: People are going to have kids. People are going have stressful situations. People are going to get sick in their lives. People are going to have events that occur. They're going to age, right? And they're going to age differently. They are going to have hormonal fluctuations. So that sort of thing that you are checking on, I think, when you're interviewing a partner, which is what dating is, is, you're saying, are we sexually compatible? All right, cool, we are. And then six, seven, eight, ten, whatever years down the road, things start to change in one or both of your lives, and that feels like, wow, this isn't what I thought. This isn't what I interviewed for, right? And that's a really common, I see that online all the time. And it's like, you have to have a different mindset about sex and libido and the, the actual 100% ironclad guarantee that, like, tomorrow something could happen to me or to you or to anybody that is going to

0:41:27 Eli: Will Eat Indian Food And

0:41:39 Thomas: I

0:42:23 Eli: Indian

0:42:23 Tom: Change that. And we have to have other ways to connect with each other that don't make us feel like shit, that still make us feeling connected and intimate.

0:42:24 Eli: Foot Yeah. And

0:42:31 Thomas: Sorry, I think another ingredient to this this argument is that I just disagree, and I don't know that, um, this is uh Sorry, I'm getting there. I don't know that this is like, I'm not sure how much this is a subjective, just people are different, but I disagree that sex is always about these other things. Like think I that like it true, I think, for some people that, like, of like, well, if it was just about an orgasm, you masturbate. That doesn't land for me. Like, it's about sex. Like, it is also closeness. Like, I can get lots of closeness and still be like, oh, boy, sure could go for some sex. Like, we could do maximum closeness, and it hasn't solved that problem, I guess.

0:42:39 Eli: With What, sorry, so I, I was actually going to bring this up, right, which is that I think for a lot of men it really is about that orgasm. Right? And the thing to understand about that, and not saying this is you, Thomas, but just generally, like, if that is the case, you need to speak to a mental health professional about that. Right? You have an unhealthy fixation.

0:43:22 Thomas: Yeah.

0:43:32 Thomas: I'm sorry. Someone wants to have sex because they like having an orgasm, they should they should get mental health support.

0:43:33 Eli: Right, Yeah, so if you're if you are unable to understand sex without the confines of orgasm, that's an unhealthy healthy fixation on orgasm, right?

0:43:42 Thomas: OK, that's a very different statement you just made. So understanding sex with like it's not about like not being able to understand there are other components to it. It's

0:43:59 Eli: But if sex is about having an orgasm for someone, right, hey, sex is about connection, sex about intimacy, and someone listening to this podcast, and there will be lots of people, like, I think you're advocating for a genuinely very common point of view, right.

0:44:14 Thomas: No, I'm saying it's also about that. I guess if you're saying someone's like, "I hate all those things. It's not about any of that." Yeah, maybe that's a different story, but it's about also the like having an orgasm. It's about, can be about all those things

0:44:28 Eli: But the the reason you're voicing the also is because the intimacy and the connection isn't enough, right? That's the point that you're making, right.

0:44:34 Thomas: Yeah, a drive to have sex and for some people, like, let me, let me hold on, hold on, let me give you this example when Tom, the orgasm gap the other day, like, why is that an issue? That, like, if, and that a lot of that comes from women saying, "Hey, I'm not getting that." You know, I'm my partner isn't making me cum. That's an issue. It doesn't matter. Like, you could, you could say, "Well, the closeness is there. You're getting the other stuff." You would still say, "Wow, it sounds like you have an issue to solve there." Because people, newsflash, people want to have orgasms with their partner. That is a thing that people want and need.

0:44:38 Eli: My encouragement, no, speak, speak. Yeah, right

0:45:04 Tom: Yeah. But me, let me make sure, like I was saying is it's not only about that, right? Yeah. It

0:45:07 Thomas: Yeah, and I agree. But there's a far gap from not only to, therefore, that part doesn't need to happen and it's still, like, and all. You know what I mean? Like, that's my point.

0:45:20 Eli: Well, but to see, I reverse that because I really important, because what you're speaking to is and again, I wanna say very, very common mindset that sex or intimacy is not meaningful mindful, unless it contains that orgasm, right? If that's the mindset someone has, right, yeah, that's what I was speaking to. And I think that you made a really good clarification and I'm

0:45:37 Thomas: Uh, yeah. Okay. I see what you're saying. If you say it can't possibly be meaningful without that.

0:45:44 Eli: Right, exactly. And I think you made a really good point and a really good clarification, right? Because obviously we all want to orgasm during sex, but I think it is incredibly common for men to experience intimacy, experience affection, and then think to themselves, "This did not count because I did not orgasm." And if that is the situation, it's important to understand that that is an unhealthy fixation to have on the orgasm, right? And to get the mental health care you need.

0:45:45 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, sure.

0:46:12 Eli: And the example, right, right. Exactly. None of the women who have had sex with me have had six of me. Nailed it. Got them. You're all virgins. No, but like, I think that's a really important thing. I also think like to use my own example, right? Because orgasm is not obviously my fixation, but I have a food fixation.

0:46:09 Tom: A hundred 100%. No,

0:46:12 Thomas: And that means a lot of women have just never had sex because their partners never, yeah, yeah during sex.

0:46:34 Eli: Give me handfuls of granola throughout the day, and if you have a grocery bag full of snacks throughout the the day and we're walking around, we're having a good time and you feed me a dinner's worth of food throughout the day because of my unhealthy fixation on food, which is something that I work on all the time. I will still think I did not have dinner, right? It's not because I'm hungry and it's because my body didn't get the nutrition, right.

Those are big important parts of having dinner, but it is because of unhealthy fixations on food that I will insist, even if if I'm full on sitting down and having dinner? And I think there are a lot of men out there who have a really, really unhealthy fixation on orgasm that needs to be worked on on the mental health level, right? Rather than with your partner, right.

Similarly, like if me and Anna just had a snack and I just, and this is, this comes up more often than I would like to admit in my particular relationship, if we eat a huge meal and I am stuffed to the gills but that meal does not include dessert, I am in a

0:46:34 Thomas: Wow.

0:47:46 Eli: Little bit of a pout.

0:47:44 Tom: Look, there's also another way to look at it and to bolster the idea that sex isn't, and I know you're not arguing this Thomas, but the most important part about sex should not, cannot be the orgasm piece. Because if it were, if it on a Tuesday, I'd be like, well, yeah, I just like now I have no interest in sex, you know, not just because physiologically there's a resting period or whatever, a refractory period like like we still may be very, very interested in sex because we want to have that exchange. We want to have that that intimacy. We want To have that connection to so we want To Have an experience, even if it's not even this is not like a loving emotional experience, Even though even we just want to Have a sensory sensory experience that is about more than just the orgasm itself. Right. Because I otherwise why not just rush right to the orgasms and be like, that was awesome. Got, got the goal. Like it's not a goal oriented activity.

0:48:41 Eli: Right.

0:48:42 Tom: It's an activity that's that, that contains many more things to satisfy us. And I guess the suggestion that I'm making, because I want to offer suggestions for the the many people who have gaps, like libido gaps, is like, like, is something that a lot doesn't appeal to a lot of people, appeals to some, cool, doesn't appeal to others, fine. If it doesn't appeal to you, it's not a solution, and sucks to suck is not a resolution either.

0:49:04 Eli: And it's a harm Right, if it doesn't appeal to you, it's harm, right? You can end a relationship by suggesting poly to a partner who doesn't want to open their relationship, right? And what your comedian podcaster friend thinks about it is not relevant to how hard your wife will cry her health to sleep when you ask if you could fuck the neighbor. But here I said monogamy slave. Oh shit, he's just on a radio show. God damn it, I don't live at my house anymore. Come

0:49:08 Tom: Because Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Right. So Right. Yeah, I, I got an apartment because Eli Bosnick said. Yeah. So if we're going to do something that is constructive and I'd like to, you, sucks to suck is true. Right. OK, fine. But like, what do you do past that? And it can't just be like, well, and then I build up an endless series of internalized resentments that I eventually explode in male anger. You know, Like, you, like seriously, like go jerk off and take the edge off, then find another way. I'm being very real though, like go jerk off and take the edge off and then find another way to feel other kinds of connections. The Thomas, I'm saying it's not a one-to-one experience. I'm not saying it's one-to-one but what I'm saying is you can't have one -TO -one in this scenario.

We've already established you cannot have a one to one. There's a libido gap, poly isn't an a, isn't, isn't a solution for a lot of people, so what do those people do? Short of building up resentments, take the edge off physically and then find other ways to feel loved and connected. There are things that you can do to feel love and connected, so you can fill in some of the gap. Will it fill in the entire gap? No, because sex is its own thing. It's its own desirable, pleasurable experience to be, be, to want and be wanted in that very specific way. But what I'm saying is like, it doesn't have to hurt like a 10. If you can bring it to a five, that's better. Right. Better, Jim.

0:49:50 Eli: Yeah. No.

0:50:03 Eli: Yeah.

0:50:03 Thomas: Yeah that's not, yeah it's, there's Yeah.

0:50:12 Eli: And I wanted to repeat some advice from Dr. Ruth which I think is really useful in this situation, which is she always says, ruin a good night. Right. The joke she makes about it is like, so a lot of times people communicate about libido gaps when they have just been rejected for sex, or they will bring themselves to have communication because they want sex right then and there, or their partner says no and they will communicate it and they are having a bad time. So the communication becomes about what I want and what you're not giving me. And what Dr. Ruth talks about is like, don't communicate about the libido gap and your wants and needs that aren't being met right there in the moment during the bad time, right?

0:51:38 Thomas: That's good advice. Yeah, that's good

0:51:40 Eli: Because that's when everyone's at their maximum defensive, Right. Wait until you're having an excellent time and say, "Hey, we are deeply connecting right now. Gosh, I love you so much. We're having a lovely time at this dinner. Hey, here's something that is coming up for me over and over again, and here in this space where you don't have to worry about me trying to jump you across the table here at this Italian restaurant, I want to talk about this mismatch that's happening," right?

0:51:40 Thomas: Advice. Yep.

0:52:04 Thomas: Picture me in the thing that Hannibal Lecter is in at the end of the movie.

0:52:06 Eli: And right, yeah, he's like, hello Clarice, did the nipples toughen? Shit, it's sex again. Ah, it's six again because I talked about nipples.

0:52:09 Thomas: There's no danger for you right now. Ignore the visible erection that I can't do.

0:52:17 Eli: But think men are really afraid to bring up this conversation in good times, right,

0:52:23 Thomas: Also just might not have occurred to us. No, that is really good advice

0:52:26 Eli: Right. I it's really hard to bring this up during good times to say, hey, now I want to do the work, as opposed to when you're hurting, right? When you want to communicate to someone who is very often your best friend, right, and that's the other thing that we don't acknowledge is, like, when these swings happen, because I, as I said at the beginning, like I've been on both sides of this, right. Right. I was the libido Hannibal Lecter my entire life. Right. Typical teenage boy growing up in America. Bruce Springsteen song. Then I met the kink community, which is people whose hobby is their genitals. Guess what? They want to fuck way more than your boy did. Right. And, you know, I will say I did not. I'll be 100 percent honest. I did not have partners who handled that in a cash money sense. They handled it in an extremely not cash money way. But I will say now as an adult looking back with, yes, I was more like a bank robbery.

0:53:21 Thomas: Talking cashier's check or money order Yeah. Okay.

0:53:27 Eli: Now looking back, I understand how I, yes. How I wanted to be communicated with. And since then in situations where I've now been on the receiving end when I'm back in the Hannibal Lecter spot. It has given me sort of an insight into how I want that communication to take place.

0:53:29 Thomas: Check fraud. Yeah.

0:53:41 Thomas: Late grade.

0:53:45 Tom: Yeah, last point that I want to make is like if is a problem that you're trying to solve, one thing that I think is very, very true is like couples that are really into each other very often have more sex than couples that or not. So if you're trying to bridge that libido gap, like more things that you can do to create like a loving space between each other, like, I'll tell you what, like many people that I know have been like, yeah, like I never had a high libido until I fell in love with so-and-so and,

0:54:07 Thomas: Sure. Exactly. Well that's, you know, and Tom, I'm trying to make that point earlier. Like it's not always clear what the issue is, you You know, you

0:54:23 Tom: So advice that I would have like for people other other than like sucks to suck is like, do everything you can do.

0:54:29 Thomas: Guys are really going hard on the joke message I sent you that I didn't say on the show.

0:54:31 Eli: No, no, no. Because I think it's really real.

0:54:31 Tom: No, no, no. I'm just saying, I think that's, I think for a

0:54:36 Thomas: It's like, Jesus

0:54:36 Eli: No,

0:54:36 Tom: Lot Of people, they feel like they throw their hands up and they don't know what to do. Like, no I'm getting like, I'm, I, I think it's actually useful.

0:54:37 Thomas: Christ.

0:54:36 Eli: I think. Yeah, insightful. That's why I keep coming back to it. Yeah.

0:54:42 Tom: Yeah. The same. I think it is really useful. I think just being like, God, that is horrible. Like there's nothing, it feels like this is a problem you can't control because you don't control how other people feel and and you don't. But I do think that there are things that you can do to say like, you know what? People, generally speaking, enjoy having sex when they have time, when they have space, whenthey feel appreciated, whenthefeelexcitedaboutsomebodyelse, when there's this big energy with somebody else. And not like something you can't build and create and capture with someone. It takes effort to do it. But like, if this is a bridge you want to cross, there is work you can can do to make sure that you've done everything possible. It's not a, it's not a fail-safe. It might not work, like, I want to put that out there too. It might not be, it might work, but what's the worst case scenario? You have a better relationship, like you've built a little bit better, like, romantic connection with somebody. There's literally nothing, there's no downside to that. You

0:55:21 Thomas: Sure. Yeah.

0:55:29 Eli: Right. Well, and more importantly, the fight you think you're avoiding by not having that conversation just gets worse the longer you avoid it. And the more you let that resentment and that non-communication build up. And I know I am very guilty of that, right? Which is like, I assume someone is going to react a certain way so I don't have the conversation and just try to figure out ways around it when, in fact, what's needed is the conversation, right? And it's tough. Right, gentlemen, before we go, I've been finding like boomer jokes that are just about how much couples hate each other. So enjoy this one. I was sitting on the sofa last night watching TV when my wife from the bedroom yelled, do you ever get pains in your chest like someone's got a voodoo doll and they're stabbing it? I told her no, and she said, how about now?

0:56:28 Tom: All

0:56:28 Thomas: Yeah, is this the new rip into it? Because I hate it.

0:56:33 Eli: I love it. Well, all you need me to do is forget to do it once, and then I'll never do it again.

0:56:36 Thomas: Yeah we didn't forget it was in the recording isn't the one recording we did.

0:56:41 Eli: It's too late. I'm a man of my word. I'm the man of principle. A man of God.

0:56:45 Tom: Right.

0:56:47 Thomas: Are you willing to disappoint my wife though this much? Like, are you willing how much she

0:56:51 Eli: I would never disappoint Lydia. When Lydia asks me to rebring Lydia, rip we into it back.

0:56:54 Thomas: Okay. Okay. All right, everyone, you know, what to do. Cyber bully my wife until she asks Eli to bring back Rip Into It, which you don't even need to do because she desperately wants it back. All

0:56:59 Tom: There we go.

0:57:03 Eli: All right. Right. Well, there you go.

0:57:11 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith who also wrote and recorded the intro music which is used with his permission this podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC copyright 2022 all rights reserved

0:57:51 Eli: Interrupt me I'm a cop in a address and a butt goes into another butt right there are people as stupid as me, Tom. There like, no, the point is coming. I want a come. It's not sex unless I come and I want it. Come right.

0:57:57 Thomas: Good. Are you practicing to have the unhorniest sex talk with your kids possible?

0:58:03 Tom: Jerk off and take the edge off, and just not about coming. It's just, it's

0:58:11 Thomas: Boy, sure could go for some sex. Like this the new rip into it? Because I hate it.

0:58:15 Eli: Would never disappoint Lydia. When Lydia