DOD157: Once a Micro-Cheater, Always a Micro-Cheater

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad. That's my thing. I know now what I can offer you that no one else can. Complete and honor dependent. I'm a man. I'm sensitive. I need to feel loved. I need to be desired.

0:00:22 Clip: Telling is the only part of being a father that I enjoy.

0:00:28 Tom: To Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's pretty sure these topics are just a trap for me. I'm Tom Curry. I am joined as always by Thomas Smith.

0:00:36 Thomas: Sorry, shut up, Tom. The podcast that can, Eli can shove it. That's the podcast that should never listen to Eli again and needs to not let Eli gaslight itself. This is applicable to everybody, not just me. Just be me, but it's an important lesson for all the Elis in your life. Don't You listen to anything he says, ever.

0:00:42 Tom: What could you possibly be referring to, Thomas Smith?

0:00:58 Eli: I I was like, gotta you pay this off, big dog. You gotta pay this one off.

0:01:03 Thomas: Boy, I just, you know, what is that class? Is it Mad Men?

0:01:07 Eli: Nope, not, not paying off.

0:01:08 Thomas: No, well, is it Madmen where the guy's like, I don't even think about you? And that's Eli to most non -psychopaths. Yeah, so, like, Eli will just drop these bombshells on you, you know, and then he'll forget he even did it, you know. Meanwhile, I'm just like, can I do a pull -up? Can I still do a, could I? I surely I could do one pull -up but eli's so sure he's so certain he's like no you can do zero play he knows somehow he's reached in to my psyche and he knows like yeah no I've gained a lot of weight I could probably he's and he tells me none I'm sweating this for days after this episode I'm like really could I do none could that be possible and then I go to my sense memory of the like what you know when you're thinking like can I do and I haven't done one in so long I'm like, I I don't know. I guess I could believe that if I tried to do it, nothing would happen. I guess. I guess if I could believe that. And so the other day we're at Phoebe's a soccer game.

0:01:09 Tom: Real

0:01:14 Eli: Don't think about you all. Yeah.

0:01:26 Tom: Quick, Eli, is it weird for you to have so many addresses because you live rent -free in a lot of people's heads.

0:02:09 Tom: I just like, it's got to be awkward for your mail at the very least, right? It is forwarding, at

0:02:09 Eli: I do. It's true. I do. That's important for me.

0:02:10 Thomas: For sure. Yeah. Eli for sure had to be reminded what I was even talking about like a day after this. I'm positive. Fully admit that.

0:02:19 Eli: Yeah yeah I'll when you sent me the video I was just excited to watch you I was so certain I was like oh nice he filmed it nice I'm gonna watch this and I'm going to put it out on the patreon and just title it pull up fails with a z and then my mouth is all like surprised on the thumbnail so people will click on it yeah was I excited

0:02:39 Thomas: Yeah, so I was at Phoebe's soccer game, and was doing I guess I used to do in soccer, which is just kind of run around behind everybody and not get anywhere near the ball, which was great. It's fine. When I I ask her, like, hey, try to get in there and kick the ball. She's like, I am. I was like, all right, sure.

0:02:55 Eli: Well you know agree to disagree agree

0:02:56 Thomas: Ten feet behind everybody, but that's fine, yeah, that's fun, that' s fine. Um so I realized that that game I was just watching a game and I turn around behind me and they have these basketball courts you know like just an elementary school whatever and the fucking basketball hoops are perfect pull -up bars somehow like the back of them like the under the backboard and and I Was like okay I I was gonna have Lydia film but I was like wait Phoebe's old enough I was Like Phoebe I need you to do something I have have a psychopathic friend who has ruined my life by convincing me.

0:03:13 Eli: They got those bracers

0:03:26 Thomas: Yeah, truly.

0:03:22 Eli: Uncle is inside daddy's head daddy

0:03:29 Thomas: I was like, you

0:03:29 Tom: I haven't slept in three days worrying about this issue. It's

0:03:32 Thomas: See,

0:03:31 Eli: Get erect since uncle eli told him he can't do a pull -up you

0:03:35 Thomas: See the circles under my eyes. I need to know whether

0:03:38 Eli: Know how grumpy mommy's been lately well

0:03:41 Thomas: You know, I haven't been able to perform in the bedroom. Oh no, you wouldn't know that, but it's anyway, so yeah,

0:03:45 Eli: You quiet it's been how you haven't been woken by the sound of screams dreams of pleasure and pain. I'm sorry. I tell you every morning at breakfast. Anyways, film me doing a pull -up like

0:03:57 Thomas: I was like, can you, I started the video. I was like, just point that, point that right there. Yeah. Just, I need to see my, my psychopath friend convinced me I can't do this. And I was and I was nervous. I Obviously was very nervous. I go on there and I just started fucking busting out these posts. Eli, how many posts I do? You want to tell everybody?

0:04:13 Eli: Five. I mean, I, so I'll tell you again, just from the psychopath's point of view, the minute you could do a pullup, I lost all interest. And you can see Thomas was like, I want you to film your reaction. Cause I thought I was going to have a good gleeful time. You can see all interest, leave my face. The second you do a bullet, I'm just like, like, oh, okay, well, he did it. Who cares?

0:04:20 Thomas: Yeah. A hundred percent. It's instant.

0:04:32 Tom: Never seen anyone look so bored. Eli

0:04:35 Eli: Chariots of Fire until he wins the race, and right before he crosses the finish line, I turn it off. That's how much I don't care about people succeeding.

0:04:41 Thomas: It was, it was like when they talk about like, Oh, you know, the dart hits the fucking dinosaur. And then it's before it's the nerve even goes there. It falls. That was you with the video before. Don't even know how your brain registered that you were bored and you already were showing that you're bored, but I don'T care care because that was for me that's this is my big reveal on that I don't even care if we never show people that video that was for me eli and it was everything that I needed it to be so I bust out and you I the only reason I ask is because you did correctly identify how many pull -ups I did in the video which was 10 fucking pull - ups baby just busted out 10 this fucking fat ass old guy just jumped up there and did 10 it was the most satisfying thing I've ever done

0:04:51 Eli: Was me with the video. It's true. That'S true.

0:05:20 Tom: And And now I actually do believe that you might be able to make that five yards rushing. I just want to say like now.

0:05:27 Thomas: Well and then I gotta send you the video I beat the fuck out of rhonda rousey yeah you're gonna see it on espn later I I just completely

0:05:34 Tom: There you go.

0:05:32 Eli: Exactly, you saw Rhonda Rousey at the supermarket she off her dear old dads fan t -shirt and they went at it and oh man it was a match for the ages so

0:05:41 Thomas: It's the best I

0:05:42 Tom: Your doorbell is gonna ring one day and you're just gonna get fucking roundhouse to the head without even knowing

0:05:46 Thomas: Works for me

0:05:48 Eli: Here's here's the funny postscript to that story and then we'll tell folks about why they should be a patron but here's The Funny Postscript to that story I saw that video and I was like okay well if Tom can do however many pull -ups he did and if Thomas can do 10 pull -ups surely I could do one pull -up so I'm at the gym the day after Thomas sends me that video and I'm doing my kettlebells right doing my little swinging swinging swinging swinging and then of course once again the gentleman who is doing the pull - ups on the pull up bar is finished I'm like you know what I'll do it I did not video myself because I think my subconscious was

0:06:18 Thomas: Please oh that would have been so good

0:06:29 Eli: Too full of self -protection but here's the funny thing right I go well okay I don't want to hurt myself so I set up the thing on the lightest weight that because the little thing you can put your knees on and I'm like okay I'll do that right I'll be able to do that do the helper thing right the assist and then I'll go a couple of those and then if that works when I tell you that the helper things slammed to the earth slammed to your my hands had no No strength to hold me. I just slammed to the earth on the helper thing and then gently rolled off of it, right? A green seal, green beret, like sneaking into an enemy base. So, yeah. I would like to say that how badly I attempted a pull -up actually negates your guy's pull -ups. So, if you think about it, on average, this podcast

0:06:40 Thomas: The helper thing yeah Yeah.

0:06:42 Tom: Assist yeah the assist

0:07:07 Thomas: So good. Uh,

0:07:17 Eli: Can't do pull - ups. It can't.

0:07:19 Thomas: Actually that might be true. Cause in the years in the negative so far that it, yeah.

0:07:23 Eli: Negative

0:07:24 Tom: Right yeah say though some of those like assist machines that I've seen they've got the fucking they well they I will like I'm trying I'll give you like a little bit it's not a full out but like some of them do have that the bar set up like the pull -up bar set up in like the where if you're if your grip is very very wide it's way harder I'm trying here.

0:07:24 Eli: Pull -ips. Harder than actual pull -ops. That's what they say thank you appreciate it I

0:07:40 Thomas: Tom, what about this psychopath behavior tells you that he

0:07:45 Tom: I'm trying.

0:07:45 Thomas: Deserves this sympathy right now?

0:07:48 Eli: Think no I think Tom's right I think Thomas didn't do real pull -ups let

0:07:50 Thomas: He gave me a midlife crisis. I've not had a midwife crisis. This was my first time.

0:07:57 Eli: The whole getting your business stolen thing was probably a midlife crisis man it's not always buying a car and fucking a child yeah it's mean it was for Tom but I'm just saying it's It's not for everybody.

0:08:08 Tom: What?

0:08:08 Eli: You know what I'm saying? But you know the only thing worse than Tom's several

0:08:12 Tom: Christ.

0:08:06 Thomas: He didn't buy a car. I thought that was good. Damn.

0:08:15 Eli: That was great. That was excellent. Yeah. But you don't know the thing worse that my attempt to do a pull -up. Why? It's the auto -ads. Yes, you've probably heard... What? It's been a couple of minutes. You've probably hurt seven or eight of them by now. And if you'd like to prevent that from interrupting your podcast experience further, you can head over to patreon.com/dearolddads where for as little as a dollar, You'll get bonus episodes for every show. This month, we had the wonderful and fantastic Heath Enright on doing a little parenting quiz. That was funnabulous. We also get a little extra at the end of every show, a little parentage. Parenting story. We had some fun ones last couple of weeks. You should check it out over at patreon.com/dearolddads. As Thomas said to the pull -up bar, rip into it.

0:09:00 Thomas: I ripped into it. All right. So end of part one of gloating now part two. No I'm just kidding.

0:09:06 Eli: Two. Here are some other exercises Eli can't do that I did a plank, did a squat thrust did some burpees that's

0:09:08 Thomas: I feel so much better. I'm alive again. Yeah. It it really is that, And I took a personally meme now. Like, Eli, is there anything else you want to tell me I can't do? And then I'll be able to do it? That's my new source of motivation in life.

0:09:22 Eli: All this is how we get you to finally do the things right all the things you've been like I'm gonna be like yeah uh thomas you'll uh you'll never finish that music cd just so you know you'll ever uh you're never actually do it and the next morning is just like

0:09:26 Thomas: Release a podcast on time. Yeah. Wait realizing you're razzing me over the podcast timing is one major reason that I get the podcast out.

0:09:40 Tom: The podcast goes out on time what movie

0:09:42 Thomas: Wait a moment. This

0:09:42 Eli: I'm your whiplash I'm you're bj novak that's what I learned from that movie is that bj Novak's a good teacher who helps people succeed whiplish you guys ever watched whiplash oh

0:09:43 Thomas: Is. And I take that personally. Oh. Oh. The stupid one with the guy and the drumming I can't stand that It's like just everything about it I hate Just I can'T do it

0:09:55 Tom: I've I've never even heard of it

0:10:01 Eli: Movie is so phenomenal because when you watch that movie people have one of two reactions the first is I don't understand why anyone watches this movie because it's about a psychopathic abuser being horrible to the children he's teaching and then at the end he's like well you're good at drums and then the movie ends and a normal person who has not been through the artist experience or the sports coaching experience, as is often the case, is like, I don't understand that movie. I think maybe that guy should go to jail.

0:10:35 Eli: But those of us lucky enough to have been through the fine arts or certain forms of athletic coaching are like, yeah, you know, he really did see the potential in him. And sometimes you just got to throw a chair and use the arse slur. I think that's really the only way to reach your potential.

0:10:50 Tom: Jesus christ well

0:10:51 Thomas: Or you're me And you have gone through that experience a lot And you're still like no that person should be in jail Cause that's You don't have to just

0:10:57 Eli: Well, no, that you're describing some form of healing that I don't believe is possible, much like pull ups.

0:11:01 Thomas: Baby Yeah Yeah

0:11:04 Tom: You you hear too from that people like oh you know you gotta just gotta learn to take criticism and have a thick skin it's like or we could do a better job uh training people to do things I mean we could we could do it the other way around you know for sure that's way better

0:11:17 Thomas: We could put the burden on the child to somehow you know not ever take any psychological damage from very psychological damaging things or you could tell the fucking adult whose job it is to do this to not be a fucking child that would be the other way to do it

0:11:31 Eli: And I think there's always a confusion in that mix that like this breeds a form of excellence that kindness doesn't. But like no one even pretends to believe that anymore. Right?

0:11:38 Thomas: I think a lot of people do believe that I think a lot OF people believe that but not us not not in our circles that's

0:11:43 Tom: I think plenty of people still believe that yeah the same people though that like when they like these are the same exact mindset of the people that like train a dog by being like you got to get on all fours and be the alpha dog and like run around and bite the dog in the neck and it's It's like, or you could give it treats and then it will just do what it does.

0:11:59 Thomas: A sex thing I think that's a once

0:11:59 Eli: Give a traits. Yeah it's just treats yep it's just treats and

0:12:01 Thomas: Again we're describing a sex ting well

0:12:03 Tom: Could just give everybody treats and they do better. Like that's true for every living organism.

0:12:08 Thomas: I've said I really wish you guys were sports sportspeople because and somehow I got lydia to watch this the fucking uh lydia come from the future tell me what the name of the show is the uh something last chance you and it's about you know the junior college where all the like kind athletes who had either you problems or got kicked out of their division one college they go to junior college for like a year to try to like get back on track you know and the coaches for this it was football for a while and then they stopped doing football they did basketball but the coach is just the yelly Yellerson all the time, just yelling. And I've spent the whole show being like, I don't think you have to do that. Like, I don'T actually

0:12:43 Eli: Don't have to do that well

0:12:44 Thomas: Think you HAVE to. I think you could just not yell and it would be just as good. I'm pretty sure.

0:12:48 Tom: It it's so funny because like we actually have a lot of studies on how to motivate and train people the same exact way we've done a lot OF studies on HOW TO MOTIVATE AND TRAIN EVERY OTHER ANIMAL. And like it never arrives back at like at least some abuse. Like you gotta gotta have like at least some belittling it always arrives back at the same thing and then there's still people like well you know but you gotta spank your kids at least every other sunday right I mean it's the same things it's like that's less effective we know it we've studied it we

0:13:15 Thomas: This but it's so funny for me, especially because when it comes to sports, as you may be able to tell, I'm the most self -motivated person ever. Like Like if someone, if we're, if we're playing my pointless loser hockey games that are the most important thing in my life and and we're like losing and someone started yelling at me, Oh, we're losing out there. Like, dude, what? Yeah. Well, I'll yell at you. Like I, yeah, I'm mad. I'm more mad than you. There's no, no one needs to yell at me about losing. Like I'm already, that's already a 10 for me. You know what I mean? Like being behind. So it's so funny to see. And because it's football and it's takes forever, these coaches, they're yelling for for like hours. And you're just like, geez, dude, give it a rest, man. Like, are you okay?

0:13:59 Eli: You start upset yeah the other thing is like because the Olympics were this past summer every time you watch one of those documentaries or those mini things mini features on the coaches like everyone says like oh my coach is my best friend he's like amazing to me and you watch them practice and no one at the olympics which is again the best athletes has their coach being like bad fucking swim faster like

0:14:22 Thomas: Yelling at their faces. Yeah.

0:14:24 Tom: They used to though there used to be a super toxic culture that stuff especially in women's gymnastics well

0:14:29 Thomas: Yeah. Well, I don't even know if they yelled at them. They just made them break their, all their legs and stuff. I don'T think they had to raise their voice though.

0:14:33 Tom: Well but they did they would yell and belittle these like little kids and shit yeah it was like a super and like everybody did believe because like yeah you can get excellence that way but you can get excellence without that also like and faster

0:14:46 Eli: Ways right that's that's always the thing is like you can get because a lot of the times people will defend this behavior by saying like well this happened to me and really this did happen to me in the arts right is like people were super duper harsh shunned me in the arts and I attained excellence um there also were people who were treated well who attained excellence and maybe and this is the hard thing that uh people don't want to internalize is maybe the excellence that you achieved through hardship maybe you would have have gotten further if someone was kind to you

0:15:20 Thomas: Could be.

0:15:21 Tom: And I think you could take the maybe out of that and say literally every study says you would have there's without exceptions

0:15:27 Thomas: Here'S another thing that happens people are entirely capable of getting lucky as in a coach somewhere could be a piece of shit but then won the genetic lottery in terms of who's in the town that they fucking coach from like the pool the talent pool and then what happens there and I swear this is this happened in my high school at least one coach then they thinks that coach is what's causing the amazing thing to happen and so it reinforces it and they do it more and it just it perpetuates until it's like they this entire cult of personality based on potentially nothing like based on just luck that pairs perfectly because we I have a thing that I don't know was going to take a whole episode that I've been wanting to tell you guys about so it pairs perfectly with I mean I'm going to gloat a little more if we if we have the time but I'll save it I'll say if my the rest of my gloating for later

0:16:14 Tom: Love that you think you have an idea that won't take an entire show that is actually adorable by the way

0:16:17 Eli: Is the podcast that can't answer two questions in a q a without taking up an entire show also

0:16:21 Thomas: It's fair Fair, fair point. Fair point. Note taken. Thank you. Appreciate it. I take that. Can you yell it at me? Otherwise, I won't know.

0:16:28 Eli: Also I don't think you can do a pull -up I didn't see your feet in the frame so

0:16:29 Tom: Can't even hear it otherwise yeah

0:16:30 Thomas: Hey, OK, that's it. Pause the show. So Lydia, I just came across this list online and normally I'm like, all right, list, dumb thing. I don't care. It's stupid. This one really got I was like, oh, I have to talk to the guys about this one because this one is a journey. I fucking love it. So she sends me this list called 21 examples of micro cheating. Cheating it's like all right here we go I

0:16:54 Eli: Well before we jump into it I want to be clear what I want out of this list because obviously like if number one on the list is drinking another person's cum out of their penis my answer is no my answer's no so I am interested in our dear friend tom because tom he's got his thumb on the heartbeat is that the phrase he's got his Thumb on the Pulse He's Got his Thumb On the Puls of Cheating Micro and Macro so I'm I'm going to want a curry denomination on this not a Bosnick you know what I'm saying

0:17:02 Thomas: Regular cheating yeah no pulse that's well oh yeah that's a synonym I guess kind of I

0:17:24 Tom: Just to set that up eli bosnick does not believe that cheating exists is that a true thing yeah just want to say like just for the listeners that that's an obviously insane take right that's like you can agree that cheating doesn't exist in your particular relationship but the but eli bosnick does take it that step further just so listeners understand and believes that cheating itself does not exist which is patently insane

0:17:34 Thomas: And I agree with tom on that yeah

0:17:47 Eli: If I may use a metaphor if I mean use a metaphor

0:17:47 Thomas: That's wait a minute eli do you believe that you can cheat on a diet well

0:17:52 Eli: Do I believe you can cheat on a diet yes

0:17:56 Tom: It's caloric slavery guys that's caloric slavery you

0:17:57 Thomas: You can yeah oh

0:17:58 Eli: Because it's an understanding you have with yourself

0:18:03 Thomas: But you can't have an understanding with another person

0:18:05 Eli: Right you can't impose that on another person

0:18:08 Thomas: You can no

0:18:08 Tom: Is impossible to form a social contract with another person and that's

0:18:11 Thomas: You can only have a contract with yourself okay sometimes

0:18:12 Eli: The metaphor that I use is tom believes that the floor is lava thomas thinks sometimes the floor is lava and I think that it's never it's never lava it's ever lava no matter how much everyone believes it's lava yeah

0:18:21 Thomas: You are in a volcano yeah oh that's funny okay I like that so uh this maybe I should read the little uh description though. Maybe that'll help us because Oh, wait, Micro -cheating. What is it? We know that cheating on your partner is a big no -no. That counts Eli out, I guess. But what about micro -cheat? Is simple flirtation crossing the line? Where is that line anyway? Micro -Cheating is a fairly new topic that is important to Oh, this is AI. Okay.

0:18:32 Eli: Cheating with my dick okay oh

0:18:56 Thomas: How far do you get to something where you're like, this is AI written, obviously.

0:18:59 Eli: I another fun game that I'm going to add to this which is am I doing this with your wives so for each of these items I'm gonna let you know whether or not I'm doing this actively with your wives

0:19:10 Thomas: Going to beat you up like Rhonda fucking Rousey.

0:19:14 Eli: God I hope this isn't someone's first episode one star not a fan of the violence against women that's

0:19:22 Thomas: Kidding, yeah, no, that's violence against me, everybody. One, secretly messaging someone. Do you you feel about that secret that that feels secretly messaged

0:19:25 Eli: True yeah see

0:19:31 Tom: That's don't know if it's micro cheating I will say it's inappropriate it's if it'S secretive it'S inappropriate but

0:19:36 Eli: Secretive is weird right

0:19:38 Thomas: Is weird but but I about if it's a weird um like social thing where it's like okay hey I something happened and I don't want to tell like what if it'S some social awkwardness that's the reason that someone's secretly mess is just any secret messaging or is it like

0:19:51 Tom: it'S a secret with my spouse in this scenario I have to assume that what they mean by secretive is that I'm I'm keeping it secret from my spouse, right?

0:20:00 Eli: Presents

0:20:01 Thomas: Yeah but I mean is there any innocent reason to do that that you wouldn't consider cheating or is this always the micro cheating sure sure yeah not counting that it's obvious what

0:20:08 Eli: And surprises obviously um someone be mad if I think might be a thing. So I will often like, Hey, do you think someone would be offended by, do you think some one would be upset if, um, not to someone's wife behind their back.

0:20:21 Tom: I guess, like, for me, it's like, I think you can receive information, right, like if somebody wanted to confide in me and said, hey, I really want to talk to you, can this be just between me and you, like right if I said, yes, of course it can because I want to be a good friend to you but if it goes the opposite direction where I'm like, Like, yeah, I've got a really important emotional thing going on, and I want to tell someone else, and I'm not telling my spouse about that. I'm not sure that that's cheating, but I would say, like, that's fucking problematic.

0:20:36 Thomas: You're not like seeking out like sure not

0:20:54 Tom: Like, that's unhealthy.

0:20:54 Eli: Not cash. It is not cash money.

0:20:53 Thomas: Great yeah okay so far I think this list that's a good start fine sure yeah I think that's good I think it's good number

0:20:59 Tom: Woo! Oh, holy shit! Woo!

0:21:01 Eli: Look at this.

0:21:03 Thomas: Number two, meeting with someone without your partner knowing. Like a little more than micro -cheating to me. Like, that's without your part of your life. Without your partner know -ing. Like, if you're, like, think about the practicality of this.

0:21:15 Tom: Think

0:21:10 Eli: Meeting with someone, keeping it secret or without them knowing those are are very different things like I don't go through my calendar with anna and then be like from 1 to 2 p.m. I will be at dig and I do not know who else is going to want those brussels sprouts honey so if you want we'll just facetime the whole time and I I don' t hate for you like I dont mention everyone I'm like gonna have lunch and hang out with but if I'm hiding that or lying by omission that's not cash money me

0:21:18 Thomas: That's fair. That's right. Yeah.

0:21:42 Tom: That's assumed in the structure of the question. Like I think, like if I go to work, and somebody's like hey you want to pop out for lunch like I don't feel obligated to like text hayley like I'm popping out to lunch with barry you know like that would be bizarre no

0:21:54 Eli: And larry went to lunch right right would you if it was a woman huh

0:22:00 Tom: Of course not no I do it all the time like if I've got a co -worker or whatever that's like hey want to go to lunch I'd be like yeah let's go to launch it's fine but like I think if it's in my social time I do tell my wife where I'm going I don'T just like disappear

0:22:01 Thomas: There's no women at his work. Work. That's see, that's the thing, right?

0:22:12 Tom: Without her knowing where i'M at or like that That would be insane to me.

0:22:14 Thomas: Like this is if you're married, I mean, maybe this is, I don't know if this is meant for all kinds of couples, but if youre a couple, that's like, you don't live together and you, whatever, that is one thing. If you're like married or have a family or anything, like, do you know how hard it is to meet with somebody? You know how it is for either me or Lydia to do a single thing that isn't working or being with the kids. So that's a major deal.

0:22:27 Tom: That's what I'm saying. Like, you've got to put effort into that.

0:22:33 Eli: All the seconds are planned out yeah I'd

0:22:35 Tom: Yeah, I think if, like, Haley was like, oh, I thought you were in the house, and I was like... Oh, actually, I was having a secret lunch with, so you -and -so. That wouldbe an insane thing to do that I think, like...

0:22:44 Eli: Be like you better be fucking two

0:22:48 Tom: Yeah. All right, so we're two for two, actually.

0:22:52 Eli: For two these are all yeah

0:22:53 Tom: Woo! Is already going better than I thought.

0:22:57 Thomas: Here we go complaining Complaining about your partner to person.

0:23:01 Tom: Right. That is not cheating.

0:23:03 Eli: You definitely not cheating or micro cheating bleeding

0:23:04 Thomas: Not Not micro -cheating, huh?

0:23:05 Tom: Or micro -cheating.

0:23:06 Thomas: This is why I love this.

0:23:07 Tom: Like, is not the same thing as like asking. In my mind, I would draw a distinction between complaining and asking for advice, right?

0:23:14 Eli: 100

0:23:14 Thomas: That's important. Yeah, I totally agree with that. Yeah.

0:23:16 Tom: So, I mean like going a trusted person like and saying, hey, I'm having a problem with my relationship and like I'd love to talk to you about it. Like I've got feelings. That's fine, right. If you're just like, hey take my wife, please. And like, you know, like I'm not a fan of that shit. That behavior is generally gross yeah

0:23:32 Thomas: Could not agree more, Tom. I have the same thing where it's like, there's such a difference between complaining I'm worried about this thing that's happening. Like, cause that's from a sense of like, Hey, I value this and I'm worried about something being wrong with this thing I value with this relationship I value versus, Oh, so yesterday she's, you know, and like the people who do that all the time about their partners, I so early on in mine, Lydia's relationship, we of the first things we did together was, uh, we did Sweeney Todd, a musical at, where uh、 we were. And there's this, that couple that was like in the cast that would like, they would get there somehow at different times sometimes. And then one would be complaining about the other. I'm just like, just, just first off, get divorced or kill yourselves. One or the other, like, it's just not like never.

0:24:18 Thomas: Like I, and I told Lydia early, I was like, that's never us or I'm not, we'd been together for like two months. I was Like, if that's us, I'm like, I don't know. I'm never going to do that.

0:24:25 Tom: Now here's a scenario where it is cheating or at least it's it's the prelude to cheating and I think this happens actually kind of a lot is

0:24:33 Eli: % yeah her vagina feels so much worse than yours does can I just say that can I be mean for a second sure

0:24:35 Tom: Well like because I'm sure you guys are aware of this too where like people will complain about their spouse with somebody that they're crushing on right that they've got in order to build an emotional bridge and show separation or distance that allows the other person to feel comfortable being intimate. So I think that a lot of times it can be a prelude to a developing intimacy that sometimes is intentional and sometimes isn't, but is always problematic.

0:24:45 Thomas: This might be on the list. Mm hmm. Hundred percent.

0:25:04 Thomas: I think if it's men, it's always intentional. And I think they're testing the boundaries all the time. Like, oh, like, you know what I mean? Like it's a way for men to test the like cheating dudes. I think они тест эти немного, вы знаете, когда они плакали о своих партнеров.

0:25:18 Eli: 100 % 100 %

0:25:19 Tom: I don't know that it's always, but yeah, I think it's often. Yeah. Yeah, I guess often. Wait

0:25:20 Thomas: Я не буду hyperbolic, но я бы, я бы был очень, я бы хотел много доказательств, чтобы назвать это an innocent mistake I guess oh

0:25:28 Eli: I say and maybe I'm about to expose myself here as the monster that I am much like the pull-up gate um would do the like complain about my wife I would never talk to someone about a serious relationship problem I was having ever in 10 000 years I would feel so uncomfortable push

0:25:42 Thomas: Wow that's interesting that's interesting I

0:25:44 Tom: A minute. You would just house that internally without

0:25:48 Eli: It down so tight squeeze it squeeze it but I'd be like look at her cocky she loses them all the time like I'm that's that I am happy to do a solid

0:25:52 Tom: I think that is insane yeah I think you're right

0:26:02 Thomas: Go on the podcast and talk about my sunglasses being stolen yeah exactly yeah

0:26:06 Eli: Exactly that's what I'm talking about right this the sunglasses being stolen and

0:26:08 Tom: That stuff is like all in good fun that's fine yeah but your heart was hurting about something in your relationship and you weren't sure how to like address it with your your wife.

0:26:16 Thomas: There's one you talked nobody

0:26:10 Eli: That I would do but yeah the never never in it nobody and I have I have lots and lots of good friends many of them on this podcast not in 10 ,000 years uh here's what you would get you would give it Eli doesn't live in his house anymore text that's what you would fucking kid yeah

0:26:24 Tom: Why?

0:26:22 Thomas: Hey buddy we're here for you oh wow okay well looking forward to that sorry now I don't know yeah like who knows who knows is this a cry for help this is a cry for help Eli oh

0:26:37 Eli: One will ever know no one will ever look

0:26:40 Tom: Having sent that text and real, like having sent that text. And also having like literally nobody in my life know that that text was going to be sent. I kind of hear what you're saying, but like, I feel like, cause literally nobody had any idea except for Cecil the day before when I split up for from my ex. So the day before I was like, yeah, I'm scooting tomorrow.

0:26:51 Thomas: Man that's interesting I

0:27:03 Tom: And he was, no, but what I'm, what I'm saying is like, that was a relationship that was already over.

0:27:02 Eli: Tom gets it oh

0:27:04 Thomas: Now yeah that was not a good relationship yeah yeah

0:27:09 Tom: Right. So that like it, problem there was that like for, you know, years and years and that was not necessarily the case. And there was no conversation. So like, if if it's It's a relationship, that's worth keeping that you're just like, Yeah, I'm just struggling with how to like, Like, work on this or address this or fix this or bring this up to somebody. It is better. I just want to put this out there for the audience. It is besser to have somebody that you can trust to walk things through with.

0:27:31 Eli: I me be very clear I'm not saying this is a good thing I'm saying this what I would do right

0:27:38 Tom: Right. Because I think when the text is like, I'm out of here, like, that decision is years old probably already, right? Like, that heart has hardened for a long time.

0:27:46 Thomas: I one hand I think I understand that impulse a little but I also I can't live that dishonestly for me because if one day I was just like hey guys I'm out of my ass it's over between Lydia and I I would feel like that in a whole time that I was interacting with basically everybody I was lying by just pretending we had a good marriage. I can't, I don't know. It just would bother me. I can't live like that. I don'T know.

0:28:10 Tom: I'll tell you this. You would be surprised how little anyone asks. But for real, you'll be surprised that if you don't bring it up, how little anyone asks about your relationship.

0:28:19 Thomas: For sure. But, like, we

0:28:20 Tom: So there's no pretending because it just becomes omission, right? You just, you're just like, oh, I'm just talking about, you know, CrossFit or whatever.

0:28:20 Thomas: Do talk about, oh, I know, but we do talk about our relationships. I'M saying, like for us, like we, like for us now, though, like we do talk about that. So, like it would have been something I actively didn'T tell everybody.

0:28:34 Eli: If I announced my divorce from Anna tomorrow the pull-up episode would have been weird exactly

0:28:43 Thomas: Or would it have been perfect? It'S like that guy who apologized for the the me too stuff with a recipe. Remember that? I think about that once a year. And then somebody, some genius feminist writer wrote some article about it. And it was like, Hey, I made his whatever small time. Like she critiqued it and also cooked the thing that he did.

0:28:49 Eli: Mario batali yeah

0:29:05 Thomas: So good.

0:29:05 Tom: That's great.

0:29:06 Thomas: I, yeah, I think, I Think about that. Once a year, I got to look that up. Cause whoever that was, This is a fucking genius. It's so good.

0:29:04 Eli: I made the cinnamon rolls while thinking about I should do it might not be as fun as I'm picturing in my head right now we should do a like analysis of all the me too responsibles from shitty men through the year right like the wide spectrum of of me too responses right

0:29:22 Thomas: That's amazing. That's amazing. I love that. Yeah. Like from one's beginning with good evening like those. Yeah. Those are my my second favorite.

0:29:33 Eli: So because we can start at

0:29:34 Thomas: First favorite. Actually, I've

0:29:28 Tom: That would be fun yeah

0:29:35 Eli: The really fun like 1950s senators being like ladies and gentlemen thank you for your attention right the sort of like but

0:29:41 Thomas: Had her committed. She's now been lobotomized like that's the that's what it used to be.

0:29:44 Tom: Wait

0:29:43 Eli: Extension thank you apologies at last for just stop talking about it and I appreciate it to the modern like fake self -flagellation to the insane like complete

0:29:53 Thomas: Remember the guy who just went on the Appalachian Trail? Remember that guy? Yeah. The politician. Dude, do you remember that? That's when?

0:29:58 Eli: That ruled.

0:29:57 Tom: What oh I do remember that now where he was just like yep got some thinking to do I'm hiking yeah

0:30:02 Thomas: I want to say say like 2000. Yeah, he just, well, I think they just couldn't find him for a sec. And they're like, where is he? And then he's like, yep, I'm on the app. I, that's been, that's been 20 years or something or eight, 15 years, but that was, that's a good one. Okay. That's a great, love

0:30:14 Eli: I'm I'm big fan of the atheist movement special and it's not exclusive to the atheist movement but I do like it which is the I'm going to put out a statement that doesn't say I didn't do that. It's a big one. I was a big fan. And I'm just

0:30:28 Thomas: It. All right. We got to get through these things. Well, that' s, that takes research, so we won't be doing that, but we 'LL have, yeah.

0:30:33 Eli: Kids come out against me. That's what I'm doing. Just

0:30:34 Tom: All right that's

0:30:36 Thomas: Sharing, knowing looks behind your partner's back. Back think about that behind

0:30:40 Tom: Weird don't do that what are you knowing what

0:30:42 Eli: I'm doing that with both of your wives, just so you know. Right now.

0:30:44 Tom: Are you knowing like what is

0:30:45 Eli: I'm on FaceTime.

0:30:45 Tom: The knowing look that like behind

0:30:46 Thomas: You're sharing looks with our wives behind your wife's back or oh you and our wives yeah yeah well

0:30:50 Tom: My back sure sure

0:30:49 Eli: No, before in your bags. Yeah. Do it on the regular basis. I just, sometimes I just send Haley a picture of me doing this. Just that face.

0:30:55 Tom: You are buddy yeah

0:31:00 Thomas: I believe Eli because he's come up with so many fake reasons that I like things about me that are not real and then he'll be like yep that's the multiple personality disorder.

0:31:06 Tom: You thomas is hanging from a pull -up bar looking over his shoulder like what am I

0:31:13 Eli: Time you were doing pull -ups, I was on FaceTimed with Lydia being like, he's doing pull ups right now.

0:31:17 Thomas: Fucking guy. Oh, yes. Number saying things like, if I weren't in a relationship. This is what I love about this list. Now we're at like, well, that's just cheating, man. Like, you're just getting into the cheating part.

0:31:24 Tom: God yeah well yes jesus christ

0:31:25 Eli: That's obvious. The before you thrust your penis into somebody's butt is micro -cheating.

0:31:34 Thomas: Number putting on the condom. Yeah it's like, okay. Number This, okay, sorry. This is one of the main ones that I can't wait. Number six, maintaining contact with your exes.

0:31:48 Eli: Interesting.

0:31:48 Thomas: Oh, come on. Maintaining contact. This was written by Tom to sell more Toms.

0:31:47 Tom: Of course yeah of course it is yeah yeah 100 we've already done a whole episode on this yeah 100

0:31:56 Eli: Did, we did a whole episode. Tom can't see them anymore after they bring...

0:31:57 Thomas: And it's, but, oh

0:31:57 Tom: Let's be honest about what that is you're putting people on an emotional and sexual back burner intentionally that what happens that

0:32:05 Eli: Then why would any of my exes talk to me, Tom? Think! Think, Tom!

0:32:09 Tom: So they've decided not to maintain but like I I very very often that is a way for people to keep somebody else on an emotional or sexual back burner and I think that that's almost always a problem

0:32:23 Eli: Well, now that I think about it, only one of myexes talks to me. So, you know, this is all starting to come together.

0:32:25 Tom: I'm not saying it's always a problem but like we're speaking in generalities I thinkthat that is very often the case

0:32:32 Thomas: Haven't talked to my ex in a really long time and I feel bad because I feel like lots happened and I haven't kept up with what's gone. I think she, I can't remember if she has two kids or one now. But I can't tell you how much is zero chance I have any interest in my ex whatsoever. Like, zero, zero interest.

0:32:47 Tom: Sure then that's the appropriate amount of interest in an ex because they're an ex

0:32:50 Thomas: But I'm sad I didn't, I need to, I'm sad I'm a messenger, her in a while. I feel mad about that. Maintaining contact can just be human beings having a human being relationship of some kind, is all, Tom.

0:33:00 Tom: I a I have have relationship with every human being in the world oh wait no I don't I don't I actually selectively choose who to have contact with actually it's

0:33:08 Eli: Cheating with every relationship yeah that's

0:33:10 Thomas: I've talked to like four people in my life, Tom. It's important that I, if I cut off every person.

0:33:14 Eli: Yeah now slimmer pickings yeah all

0:33:17 Tom: Yeah yeah to use eli's from from the last time we did it's like I've seen your butthole

0:33:23 Eli: These are important values yeah

0:33:26 Thomas: Mean, yeah. So number seven, flirtatious, flirtatrous, joking,

0:33:32 Eli: Flirtation is right there in the description

0:33:32 Tom: From Well, flirtation is right in the thing.

0:33:36 Thomas: But okay. Okay. Now what now Eli, what now who's the fucking Tom is flirtation cheating.

0:33:41 Tom: Is the lava lava, Eli?

0:33:43 Eli: Well that's what I'm saying if we're assuming no nothing's cheating but assuming Look, this assumes that there is macro cheating, so I am playing the game. I'm doing the bit, right? Cheating exists, flirtation, I .e. the of a mate, is micro versions of cheating.

0:34:03 Tom: I think we have to think about what flirtation is, but I'm right there with you, Eli. Like just generally and charming is not flirting, right? Flirting is like in terms of like the things you would do if you were single to get somebody to be interested and attracted in you and to show that same interest, if that's kind of broadly how we would describe flirting, then yeah, flirting, like, like flirting would be a prelude, right? It sets the groundwork for an emotional or sexual intimacy that if we don't have room for that in our relationship would be cheating.

0:34:35 Eli: And I will also say that nothing is funnier to me than super toxic dudes who pretend they weren't flirting when they were especially when they get shut down and pretend women were flirting when they weren't which is is more disturbing it's what

0:34:49 Thomas: That's more more disturbing, yeah, like,

0:34:49 Tom: My God. Yeah. Where they're like, your change is 62 cents. Have a great day. And that chick loves me.

0:34:55 Thomas: She wanted me, yeah.

0:34:55 Eli: Should I do with my great day do you think when do you get off that's crazy

0:34:59 Tom: She pretty much grabbed my dick by saying that.

0:35:03 Thomas: Yikes, that's, oh my god, that's the fucking RFK journal, oh, my god. Did you guys see this? Whoa, Eli, you have not seen this? Holy fucking shit.

0:35:10 Tom: No, what?

0:35:10 Eli: What's this are the texts out the tech between her and and rfk

0:35:17 Thomas: He had a journal, apparently, this is old news that, like got re -upped, because there was a journal that his note to put before this sentence this is disturbing uh awful crap he ex -wife um suicide apparently uh no small part funny so far due to his fucking philandering and he has a journal content all his like cheating and he had like numbers of like the fucking oh it's a one to ten if he had sex with him it's 10 and if he or whatever ever like all this dude it's disturbing like this this fucking this fucking guy right when you think

0:35:21 Eli: Funny so far loving it wow you just can't have heroes anymore oh man um guys do you mind if we end the episode really early I just um

0:35:58 Thomas: Sorry man that's that hits you hard you know first louis ck then you know

0:36:01 Eli: I mean it's all louis and then neil gaiman and now rfk I just I

0:36:06 Tom: Holy shit,

0:36:07 Thomas: Never it's disgusting oh that

0:36:07 Tom: Dude. I'm looking at this now. The codes he used. Oh,

0:36:09 Eli: Don't know who to look up to anymore

0:36:10 Tom: Holy shit.

0:36:11 Thomas: When he thinks someone can't get like I truly thought this guy can't get more disgusting and then like he unlocked dimensions of disgusting like the alien race in three body problem sending a fucking neutron over here whatever the hell it was it's like holy shit I didn't know there was that much room to be a piece of shit okay seven

0:36:28 Tom: Well, wait a minute. Did you have a different take on the flirtatious thing?

0:36:31 Thomas: Uh yeah flirting is fine fine. That's my, that's my take. We it's a hundred percent fine. We that's been, that's okay. Okay. Well, maybe Lydia and I are weird, but that's from, from very early on, we had a discussion like, yeah, flirting is fine. Whatever.

0:36:46 Eli: Flirting's okay in my relationship too thomas can you think anything that our relationship hasn't come in them

0:36:50 Thomas: Well, and I don't, maybe it's also the, it might also be the theater influence.

0:36:54 Tom: Well, like, I guess, yeah. Do you define flirting the same way that I was defining it earlier? Or do you think of it differently?

0:36:58 Thomas: Flirting is up to second base. No,

0:37:00 Eli: Yeah on the same page tom you're the weirdo here

0:37:03 Tom: All right. I'm the odd man out. I'm The Sane One. That's fine.

0:37:04 Thomas: I maybe because we're again we were we're musical theater people like just doing musical theater is flirting like honestly

0:37:09 Eli: That's what what it is is that what we're calling it now is that like that's the new upside down pineapple is musical theater yeah obviously

0:37:15 Tom: Know, musical theater flamingos are outside my front door. Yeah.

0:37:19 Thomas: Uh no that's always been a thing that's been yeah flirting's fine I don't know I think it's nice to look if you're in a tom -esque prison relationship that where your entire action every action is policed by the nanny state or by by the 1984 camera in your house sure and

0:37:33 Tom: Nobody polices anything of mine, though. Like, I do exactly what I want all the time. Yeah. I do the same thing. I do it exactly what I want, all the same. It's just...

0:37:41 Eli: Now I'm picturing tom desperate to flirt with me but being like no tom you made a promise to god what that thing do correct

0:37:48 Thomas: But oh it's flirted with is a very positive thing for a human being to have. That's fun thing that is nice if you are cool with your partner doing it.

0:37:56 Tom: 100 % agree.

0:38:03 Eli: Tom just taking it to tom come over here isn't the whole point of the monago thing that you only get to do that with one person I

0:38:11 Thomas: That's for some people. It's you only have sex with one person. I

0:38:16 Tom: But wife and I flirt back and forth incessantly and it's super fun and I don't I get the same rush out of that now that I got out of it seven and a half eight years ago we first met so like I don't feel like there's any difference there

0:38:29 Thomas: Also think eat the same thing for every single meal every day. No, I'm just kidding.

0:38:32 Tom: I I like if If it's a restaurant that serves all of your favorite foods, if if if there's I could go to a restaurant and they said, hey, here's a restaurant, Tom, that serves all of your favorite foods, why would I go to a different restaurant? This one already has all of my favorite. It doesn't have just one thing.

0:38:36 Thomas: McDonald's is a great restaurant. Yeah.

0:38:51 Tom: It has all of my favorite things.

0:38:49 Thomas: I am 100 % joking. I don't ever want to be perceived as trying to argue you out of your favorite restaurant. That's awesome for you. No, but I but but genuinely, even in the context of a monogamous relationship, that's that's always been something that like hasn't I cared about and Yeah. Flirting.

0:39:07 Eli: My partners have all really cared very much cared I mean I'm not a good so that's also I I will say this I've never been the like subtle flirter type right always been the light make a very non -dangerous non -aggressive speech about intentions in a a public place like me and anna's first

0:39:12 Thomas: Oh, you're like you're an alien race that has landed on another planet. It and if

0:39:33 Eli: Me of me and annas like very first dates I was like I would like to date at you but if that is not something you want this is a public building I will step backwards until I am out of sight there are cars behind me you are not obligated to but you're not obligator to if I get hit I get it that has always been my jam is like Like supreme, and I think flirtation, and Tom, correct me if I'm wrong here, because I've seen you flirt. I've seeing you flirt with your wife who's now your wife. Think

0:39:49 Thomas: You could indicate if I'm going to hit one or one will hit yo you don't have to yeah

0:40:08 Eli: Flirting requires a bit of subtlety, a bit holding back, a little cheekiness that I absolutely do not have.

0:40:16 Thomas: That's that's interesting I didn't think about that but when you say it that makes sense for you so don't yeah you don't you shouldn't eli we agree you shouldn't flirt oh

0:40:23 Tom: I, yeah. I yeah,

0:40:27 Eli: The ways I've approached all of my partners in life, none of them would be considered flirtation. And were they not enthusiastically consensual they would all be harassment which is why I do the over communication thing right so I'm like hey here comes my

0:40:42 Tom: Here's the way I'm going to talk to you from now on. If you say yes,

0:40:43 Eli: Hands exactly exactly

0:40:45 Thomas: You flirt like how when someone's uh on the registry they have to go door to door and be like hi knock knock knock I'm on the sex offenders hi I am flirting uh

0:40:58 Eli: I'm here I'm a flirter um just you know yeah if you want you can go on megan's list and see who I flirted so

0:40:59 Thomas: Here's the number of my parole officer if my flirting is not

0:41:04 Tom: I wonder too, like if if you'RE flirting, but you are monogamous, like let's say you're flirting, But you're monogamist and then you're unavailable and And the other person doesn't necessarily know that you're just fucking around that. That seems also like that could be a recipe for like weirdness or confusion, because if I'm the other person, I'd be like, oh, this is awesome. Like if somebody I'm just thinking if I were single and some woman was flirting with me and I was flirting back, I would be like oh, this is super fun. And then she's like, nah, I'm just I'm just fucking around is make me feel good. I'd be like oh, that kind of sucks for me.

0:41:20 Thomas: For sure it can be done very poorly yeah oh you mean a thing that's happened to me like a lot of times yeah

0:41:36 Tom: But that's what I'm saying. Like it actually seems like kind of unethical, right? Like I'd be like oh, I guess make yourself feel good at my expense. That's neat like we're like we're taken where

0:41:43 Thomas: You've had that happen to you right Tom that happens to me all the time it used to happen to me where a girl flirts with you and then is like not really

0:41:49 Tom: Somebody's taken already and then they are flirting with me

0:41:52 Thomas: Not saying you initiated it I'm saying you haven't had that OK, never mind. Maybe just me.

0:41:55 Tom: I've never had somebody that was unavailable flirting

0:41:58 Thomas: There are often people who are not going to do anything or cheat or anything, but do really want that attention in a way that can be not healthy. And that's happened to me. But yeah, no, And, this you know, it brings up a kind of a serious point, which is the vast difference in the ways we look at this stuff does create a lot of issues sometimes. Times. Because like, if everyone kind of had like the same feeling about this stuff, it would be a boring world. But also it would mean that like, okay, when this person is doing X action, I can understand that to be a certain thing. But we have major differences between, you us atheists and people who are like hardcore religious, you knows, where it's like any overture at all is looked at as like a major commitment. Whereas if everybody is kind of in the Thomas corner of like, like, yeah, a little harmless flirting. Then it's also, not only is it fine, it's also not received in a way that's like, oh, my God, this is dangerous. You know what I mean? Like, it is like, ah, yeah. Harmless flirting.

0:42:54 Tom: Get maybe yeah it's just my lack of my lack of experience but yeah everybody that I've ever flirted with or that's flirted with me has been available in some way I and don't I think it would like kind of suck like to be flirted with and then they get excited about that because it's fun and then for them to be like yeah I'm just making myself feel better I mean like oh cool like maybe don't do that at my expense like

0:43:07 Thomas: It does suck. It's not fun. It Has that not happened? I feel like that has happened to me a lot.

0:43:15 Tom: Yeah but as if but I like like whether so that's what I'm saying like it's like maybe we shouldn't dothat

0:43:17 Thomas: No. It doesn't feel good. No, that kind that you are talking about. Oh yeah, yeah it doesn't have to be like that though. It doesn't to be the kind that, like, there is so many subtleties to human and communication. You know, there's so many ways that things can be like harmless flirt versus, oh, a little edge to it. But then you're also doing it knowing that you're just, you stringing someone along like

0:43:37 Eli: I think if you've made it to edging you're probably more than flirting at that point you know yeah

0:43:42 Thomas: Number nine, putting the condom on. Yeah.

0:43:44 Tom: Like haylee would tease me that I was like with like a cashier or something like when when she and I were on the phone we were long distance so I would plug in my headphones and walk around and go through my life she did the same thing we did this for like months while we were a long distance and she she would like tease me a little bit because I'd like to be checking out at the grocery store and I would just like crack a couple of jokes and she would tease me that I was flirting but it was just being absolutely harmlessly charming right there was not like complimenting someone on their appearance or like it was just like genuinely like making a joke in line or something right um she did not see that really as actual flirting right like we were just like goofing around so if that's what you mean by harmless flirting I think that's why I would draw the distinction between being just charming

0:44:15 Thomas: Interesting. Maybe. Yeah, it might be like turning on the charm kind of thing a little bit, but not like directly like making like sexual references yeah maybe that's what we're considering flirting a little

0:44:28 Tom: But yeah if i'M making like you know if iM like reaching out and like touching someone's arm while talking or you know making like because there are differences right there's a lot of body clue there's eye contact contact differences there's topic of conversational differences those kinds of things are different from just being charming like part of my job is to be charming you

0:44:39 Thomas: That's fair I've tom's

0:44:52 Eli: Would say that as and I know I've talked about tam's a male prostitute I I would Say this like as a man who has had to learn that that experience most of the time not all of the Time thank you very much but most of The time is scary for women right I behave that way around them it's interesting because I know that that's not true for most men and certainly for certain types of men it's less true but like one of the things that I've had to learn is to flirting adjust is not a good option for me in case I'm wrong because the downside for me if I'm flirting is that someone is afraid right

0:44:54 Thomas: A male prostitute by the way oh jesus fair

0:45:30 Eli: It's it's not because I'm it's enough because I'm creepy or because iM you know badly behaved or I violate people's space or consent like I said I'm super communicative but like the behaviors I saw attractive movie actors doing to each other in movies and tv and that I saw my peers doing it like bars and clubs and stuff are not behaviors that make other people feel safe from me right and so I think the reason why flirting never at least in the modern day to me never feels like a a possibility is because I had a few experiences where I tried to flirt and I could tell someone felt unsafe and uncomfortable right not just like not interested but like oh no like don't like this right I'm having a bad experience not just an experience of rejection and so I think that's where the over communication on my part came from is like realizing oh because of the way I assume because the way I look but you know be a variety it could be the way that I smell uh but because of the experiences I had, right? I changed that communication to be safer. And when I started over communicating, I definitely still got rejected, but multiple times throughout my life, I had people, potential partners, folks like that say, Hey, not interested, but I'm really grateful that you communicated in this way. Right. And so I think that's why for me, the flirting thing never really, uh, yeah, never felt.

0:46:54 Thomas: All up number seven so far it's been within the realm of like, yeah, okay, this is a list that makes sense. Number eight, ready for this one? Creating a dating profile. Oh my

0:47:02 Eli: Ready huh huh so

0:47:08 Tom: See this online all the time though I see online all the time where people are like yeah uh so my boyfriend has or let me let me throw this out there or did not delete their dating profile right that is actually that happens all the time

0:47:22 Eli: Insane it's

0:47:25 Thomas: Feel like that can sometimes be them trying to game the system. Oh yeah, just didn't, forgot to uninstall.

0:47:30 Tom: Didn't delete the dating profile after becoming exclusive with somebody they just like delete the app but they keep the profile open so they can always just read download the app and their profiles right there

0:47:34 Eli: Insane

0:47:35 Thomas: Whoops. Yeah, now I say this, I am absolutely somebody who would, if I were in that situation, forget that I had an app that was a dating. Like if I if I was. So for me, it would be a real excuse. Like, no, I genuinely forgot that I probably had that.

0:47:54 Eli: Yeah I this is a nice three bears here right because tom goes to match .com and shoots the server that once contained his profile thomas is like I pushed the app until it wiggled and then I pushed a little minus sign I don't know what you want from me and I'm like I'm not deleting the dating profile what if I want to fuck other people rude you're being rude can I tell you being really rude right now here we are at your mother's birthday and you're bringing this up yeah

0:48:23 Tom: I think you could enter an agreement with somebody to be exclusive and then like keep your fucking dating app and I mean too like just deleting the app off your phone you do that shit intentionally like you go and you scrub the app like that's what you do because you are being exclusive you

0:48:35 Thomas: Wait, I'm sorry. You need to do more than just deleting the app. What? What?

0:48:41 Tom: Have to delete your profile the

0:48:42 Thomas: How do you even do that?

0:48:42 Eli: Tom is like you gotta go and burn the face off the statues that of your app and okay

0:48:46 Tom: Same you delete anything else

0:48:47 Thomas: I just uninstall the app. I don't know.

0:48:47 Tom: You just you go into like no that's insufficient that

0:48:51 Thomas: That's not what?

0:48:50 Eli: That's absolutely insufficient this is 100 insufficient absolutely I completely understand if people if are playing the floor is lava you cannot get lava boots where you click two buttons on the app store and then you're walking back in the lava again it's

0:49:04 Tom: Is yes look once you agree to be exclusive if that's the agreement you make with somebody right because like you're you're for whatever reason you're saying we are exclusive we're in this like we're committing to this thing but all I mean I'm just gonna I'm gonna say I don't want to redo all that work of creating my dating profile I

0:49:21 Thomas: The I put the app in a folder on my phone, it's gone from my existence. So maybe this is again, ADHD, like object permanence.

0:49:28 Tom: Think this is a thomas thing like I think

0:49:29 Thomas: Yeah. Like I forget.

0:49:30 Eli: Definitely not an adhd thing you're

0:49:31 Tom: I I Because like deleting the app doesn't mean you don't get like email notifications. It doesn't

0:49:37 Thomas: I've I've turned off those years ago.

0:49:39 Tom: doesn'T change any of your ability to log into it on a browser, for example. You know, like people still use that as a way.

0:49:46 Thomas: Oh, I'm not saying it's a foolproof way to prevent any possible access.

0:49:46 Eli: You gotta delete your dating profile I

0:49:50 Tom: I know you're saying for you personally, I'm just saying like broadly speaking.

0:49:52 Thomas: For me, it's gone out of my life. Yeah, okay, okay gotcha, gotcha. Sure, yeah

0:49:56 Eli: Number one concern with not deleting the profile is I would not want if I were in a monogamous relationship I would not want someone else to find that profile and then tell my partner hey your partner who you believe to be excuse still has this profile for people to view and think they can date them sure

0:50:14 Thomas: I I thought they had all the advanced whatever now that if you're inactive then it just wouldn't show you to people anymore.

0:50:20 Eli: Doesn't that is not what happens. No, go delete

0:50:23 Tom: I haven't looked. I don't

0:50:24 Thomas: Why would it be showing you?

0:50:25 Tom: Know.

0:50:24 Eli: Your e -harmony Thomas, you have three kids, I mean you don't have to, you know what I'm saying, yeah

0:50:31 Thomas: Yeah. Well, that's a, like a physical folder that I have to like burn, like an actual, like papers, like, it's like a VHS interview that I has to like, one. I can't wait to talk with Tom about trying Number nine, trying to impression someone you have a crush on yeah I'm always trying to impress you buddy and

0:50:31 Tom: E-harmony these are getting so ridiculous the next one's gonna be like hires a matchmaker like

0:50:53 Eli: Exactly by doing pull -ups and sending them a video for perhaps I need to yeah I just want to say like you know I

0:50:59 Thomas: It never works uh so now what I think is funny about this is I think Tom would just say having a crush is already too far right, I mean like yeah

0:51:07 Tom: So gonna feel like an asshole saying this but like my view in my experience, I - so this is not proscriptive, this is descriptive, I want to be clear about that, because I don't want the audience to feel like judge or whatever. In my personal experience, don't think you can have a crush on somebody unless there's room in your relationship. If you're in a monogamous relationship and there's a room there, emotional room or otherwise, I think that's a sign of a problem in that relationship. That's been my experience personally, so no no look

0:51:19 Eli: Would like you to feel audience, you don't GET LIKE INVOLUNTARY CRUSHES huh that

0:51:42 Thomas: Tom's talking about it blows my mind, he's like yeah, I don't even see the women, the women are attractive, I don't even know that they are, and stuff it's like crazy

0:51:47 Tom: Like seeing a guy that's attractive to me like as a heterosexual guy I can watch like I

0:51:51 Thomas: But you want want to fuck.

0:51:51 Eli: That metaphor doesn't work for me, I'd

0:51:53 Tom: But as a as a pretty fully comfortably heterosexual guy, it's not like I'm like, oh, that guy - I, I can't tell the difference between you, Momoa and uh Leno, right, like I - it's not like I'm like, yeah, they look exactly the same. I literally can't see the difference. Like that would be absurd. I can see that like somebody is attractive, but I am not attracted, right? So there's a difference in the same way. But like I will say that like in previous relationship, I did have little crushes for sure. I never acted on them. They were like you said, they were involuntary crushes. I never reacted on them, I recognized that they were inappropriate to act on in any way, including trying to impress the person that I had a crush on. That would be acting on that. Right. That would be trying to develop something with that person. So I would 100 % did not do that. But like, I will say that in the eight years Haley and I've been together, I've never had anything remotely resembling the same thing. And I recognize that for me, descriptively, not proscriptively, that is a big difference. That's been a big difference,

0:52:55 Tom: Right? Like I am just genuinely like, yeah, whatever. Like there's other people and they seem fine.

0:52:56 Eli: I wonder, I wonder if that's a thing because I genuinely don't know how most Monagos feel about that, so I don't

0:53:05 Thomas: I think that's just a kind of a fundamental difference between Monagos and not Monagos.

0:53:10 Tom: Yeah, maybe. Yeah.

0:53:11 Thomas: I've, I don't think, I ever don't have a crush on someone in some way. Like, I, don't think we're perverts, but, oh,

0:53:15 Eli: It's such a nice experience that a weird, are we - per, is that because sometimes I'm a pervert and I don't know, right

0:53:23 Tom: I don't know that you're like, I just feel like, like, I don't know, like I don't know how to describe it. Like for me, the best way for me to describe it personally is like literally all that space is already used up, right? And so it's like, for me like, and maybe this will be a good analogy, but maybe it won't because I actually, I can't get as necessarily into that headspace.

0:53:38 Thomas: Tom, Tom. I think Eli and I - oh, I won't speak for Eli, I understand you - I think our question is, are everyone like that mostly and we're weirdos? I think that's my, that's my question.

0:53:47 Tom: Oh yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I

0:53:47 Eli: Because like, I know it about the sex stuff, right, I get that most people aren't like me and that's cool. They get it.

0:53:55 Thomas: It's probably better for the world.

0:53:56 Eli: Like most people are religious too. There are mistakes. Well,

0:53:57 Tom: You sound so sad about it though. You're like that's cool. I get it.

0:54:00 Eli: Yeah, I look, I wish people weren't Catholic and I wish people weren't Monagos, but you know, there's only so much you can do. I'm out there trying to change minds one heart at a time. But I'll say like one of the fun experiences of my relationship, I hope this isn't weird, but one of the fun experiences in my relationship is noticing when my partner has a crush and like like, mildly teasing them about it, right? Even if I don't think they're going to act on it, right, even if it's not, like, part of, like a new relationship for them, just being like, oh, hanging out with so-and-so an awful lot these days. How's it go? Right? And then sometimes that is a thing.

0:54:33 Thomas: 100%.

0:54:33 Eli: Sometimes it's a thing that's not a thing and sometimes it's it's-not-a-thing. I thought that was a Monago thing as well.

0:54:34 Thomas: Delightful. It's I don't know. I don't know. I' m not putting labels on anything. I think it's delightful, Eli.

0:54:40 Eli: Chime in, Monagos! You. Thomas, I gotta tell you, I love your feedback, but I don't think we're, I think we're the best.

0:54:50 Thomas: To impress someone. And like that, I'm genuinely, jokes aside, like, I'm genuinely unsure on trying to impress someone you have a crush on. I feel like I can see the interpretation that's like, that's 15 miles over the limit. And then the other interpretation being like, no, someone in the office that's like oh you kind of have a little crush but it's one of those things between your partner by the way that like we've had that in the past like oh so and so I think they are a little into you and then it's like that's the kind of like joke and then I could see trying to we

0:55:14 Eli: You guys don't do those jokes Tom where like someone has a crush on Haley and you're like that person's into you and it's not it's not about

0:55:22 Thomas: Eli's sending you a lot of memes

0:55:27 Eli: You lot sending you a lot of facial expressions with him going oh

0:55:30 Tom: No, have - there's certainly been like, like there's definitely like a moment I'm thinking of a moment in particular where I was like, I bet that dude's got like a little something for Haley, and I'll tease her, be like, oh, they liked your status awfully quick, they always like your status before I even get I'm sitting here right next to you and they beat me to it right

0:55:46 Thomas: A male partner to in a heterosexual relationship, there's no end to that on social, I don't know if we count social media because any of our partners has 47 lurkers that like all their fucking everything and within five seconds on

0:55:59 Tom: So I'm just going to be real here, do you really think that in real life, somebody that would have a crush on Haley would expose that in a way that I would know about it on

0:56:08 Thomas: Not in real, yeah yeah

0:56:09 Eli: Haven't gotten the like really confident like I'd like to fuck your wife thing yet

0:56:15 Tom: I just can't imagine anybody being like, hey, I know Tom and Haley and I know how they feel and what they're into. But let me make it clear that I've got a little something in real life. I can't imagine that happening.

0:56:26 Eli: Many times that's not happening you guys Here's

0:56:28 Thomas: That's oh that's not happened, yeah, that's not happened no that and men are, it's interesting like obviously men have to go about the world also in fear of other men, like that's we all do that, and women and men, and definitely been times where I've noticed a difference in how, you know, like someone acts around Lydia when I'm not - how she describes them acting when I'm not around versus when I'm around - how they, how they act. I was like, okay, all right, sure, I get it, sure.

0:56:52 Eli: What I'll say, right? Because take the weirdo out of it, right. Let's take me out of it. But here's what I can tell you. No illusions, and Lucinda - illusions, monogamous, Taylor Swift song levels of monogamous. We have received multiple emails from people being like, I feel like me and Lucinda really have a connection and would love if you're ever in town to take her to dinner sometime and just pick her brain multiple multitude in this times. I

0:57:16 Tom: No, that never has happened. No. No no

0:57:11 Thomas: Jesus Christ, are you serious? That's weird, that's weird. I actually, I don't, okay.

0:57:22 Tom: That's super odd. Yeah I never get anything like that.

0:57:24 Eli: Also for the record I also think it's weird by the way I would I would

0:57:27 Thomas: Cause I don'T think, unless Lydia's not telling me about some emails, I don''t think I've gotten that.

0:57:31 Eli: From my perspective right floor is lava I don't think there's a thing I would absolutely never approach someone who I believed to be in a monogamous relationship that is a wild violation of privacy of and other people's right your

0:57:40 Thomas: Of course, of course, yeah. You're like, hey, you're in lava over there, I Get it.

0:57:47 Tom: Want to speak to that real quick because like if that happened with like let's say somebody like expressed an overt interest in in Haley would not be best friends anymore like we'd be done like real, that's somebody that clearly doesn't respect me or her, right?

0:57:53 Eli: Best friend for instance the heart and soul of your podcast okay if it was the heart and soul of your podcast well that's the thing right is like it's a huge disrespect of you but also her right she's made that choice

0:58:07 Tom: It's a massive disrespect of both of us. And I think that's really important, right, like a lot of guys take offense at that from an ownership angle. I would take offense of that from a relationship angle. Our relationship is publicly, for people that know us privately and people who know us only through public spaces, our relationship is very closed, right. We're very open about that being closed. We behave exclusively in those ways if somebody were to disrespect our relationship like that that would be somebody that I'd be like you don't respect you back right like now as a it's not that I'm threatened

0:58:39 Thomas: That'd be clearly somebody who doesn't care about the very very defined boundaries you put up obviously like that

0:58:44 Eli: And it's the choice because

0:58:46 Tom: So it's like I'm not gonna go like fight him or something I'm not gonna be like yeah you were trying to take my lady I'm threatening like it's nothing like that

0:58:52 Eli: Hey

0:58:51 Thomas: Yeah that's not someone who's a good friend they don't listen to you they're

0:58:54 Tom: Look

0:58:52 Eli: Hey tom we don't have to lie to our listeners here you would absolutely go fight that person I don't know why you're pretending you wouldn't go okay

0:58:57 Thomas: Ohyeah

0:58:58 Tom: If they acted on it that wouldbe a level honestly like if they like touched her or something that would be a level of disrespect where I might lose my temper right

0:59:03 Thomas: That's different yeah for sure you'd be like hey how about we take this to the car wash hey

0:59:06 Eli: I just didn't want us to pretend And Tom

0:59:08 Tom: I want to be real with you too dude like

0:59:09 Thomas: My car could use a new coat of wax let's get in this car

0:59:14 Eli: You know what your problem? You don't fit inside this card box.

0:59:14 Tom: Like if don't want to pretend man if somebody made like a physical pass at haley and and again like there's no confusion about that right would have they would Have a rough day

0:59:26 Eli: Would have so many rough. Look, Tom, I think it's very generous. I don't know what you're talking. Maybe you're protecting yourself legally or something. But there's no. But here's the thing, right? Again, floor is lava. All that stuff, right. Haley's eating at the restaurant, use to a metaphor we've used before, and she's ordered the chicken parmesan, and I sidle up to the table and I'm like you should really have the penne a la vodka that's fucking gross it's cause it's about her choice it's not the offense to the fucking veal parmesan it is offensive to the person who has made a choice it is about respecting her choice yeah I

0:59:51 Tom: That's what I'm saying yeah yeah exactly yeah

1:00:00 Thomas: 100 yeah is weird so those emails to answer your question very weird I've never heard of that that's insane I I that's very weird

1:00:06 Eli: Can't believe that's just us that's

1:00:08 Tom: No I've never gotten that either

1:00:08 Eli: Weird guess that's uh just over at the Buzzle and the Thunderstorm LLC

1:00:13 Thomas: I fucking weird man I I don't know. All

1:00:15 Eli: All of us all of our partners all of of us oh yeah big time

1:00:19 Tom: What

1:00:20 Thomas: There's just one creep. Like Lydia's

1:00:21 Tom: Maybe because your partners are a bigger part of the show no because lydia's a part of your shows but

1:00:24 Thomas: A pretty part of the show.

1:00:24 Eli: We took hayley and you have a show you

1:00:27 Tom: Yeah but no one's gonna send an email to fucking talking shit based on like that would be a that

1:00:29 Thomas: Not. Yeah, that

1:00:32 Eli: Didn't get that email I

1:00:32 Thomas: Would be crazy.

1:00:32 Tom: Would be so insane I can't even imagine that happening like based on our content

1:00:36 Eli: It's always insane oh

1:00:36 Thomas: You might have one weirdo making a bunch of different email accounts because because that's weird. I've never heard. I've done podcasting a long time.

1:00:40 Eli: Maybe don't really know it's me yeah it's mean

1:00:43 Tom: Are you sending those emails

1:00:46 Thomas: He's just testing the waters constantly. Still, still hasn't changed. Uh,

1:00:48 Eli: Yeah still

1:00:51 Tom: What

1:00:58 Eli: Gentlemen. Two things. First of all, everybody shut up. That's right. This one's going to be a two-parter. So, gentlemen, before we let everyone in on the second half of this conversation on the next episode. I've been trying this new method of losing weight by wearing bread on my head. It's a loaf hat diet.

1:01:19 Thomas: I love it.

1:01:23 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

1:02:03 Eli: Before you thrust your penis into somebody's butt is

1:02:06 Thomas: Flirting is up to second base. No,

1:02:08 Tom: Take my wife, please. And

1:02:10 Eli: I'm not deleting the dating profile what if I want to fuck other people rude