DOD154: Just Because You Can't See It

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:02 Clip: I'm the cool dad. That's my thing. I know now what I can offer you that no one else can. Complete and utter dependence. I'm a man. I'm sensitive. I need to feel loved. I need to be desired.

0:00:22 Clip: Telling is the only part of being a father that I enjoy.

0:00:29 Tom: Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's nurturing what's natural. I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:38 Eli: Hello, um, uh, listener. Tom left a little bit of last week's intro in our notes, so it was the podcast that's just doing what's natural, but still throws a fit, and I was like, yeah, I get it. I do get it, yeah.

0:00:49 Thomas: That's good. Yeah, that applies.

0:00:52 Tom: Yeah, yeah. And I just punted anyway with something different at the last minute. So yeah. Is that the right term? I think that's the right term.

0:00:55 Eli: Look at you with a sports term. Spee

0:01:01 Tom: Did I do it right, Thomas? Yes.

0:01:01 Thomas: It's that one's crossed over. So I

0:01:03 Eli: It's football times now, right? Isn't it football times, Thomas? Us yeah no

0:01:08 Thomas: Think I don't actually watch NFL anymore. But yeah, I thinks it starts like next week or something.

0:01:12 Tom: Don't watch NFL anymore.

0:01:14 Thomas: No, I quit. I stopped.

0:01:15 Tom: All right. So remember, it's all about the coaching and it's all aboutthecoaching.

0:01:16 Thomas: I don' have time. It is all

0:01:19 Eli: It's all of that everybody

0:01:20 Tom: If you get asked, cause you'll get asked. It's allaboutthecoach. Everybody says healthy. We got a shot, but you know, these championships are won in training camp.

0:01:24 Eli: Stays healthy

0:01:29 Thomas: It moves on so quickly that I went from like, oh, yeah yeah, I can talk football with anyone because you play fantasy football, you learn all the players and everything. And within like two years, it was like, I'm fucking Eli now. Someone was like. Oh, have you heard of Walt Scroggins for the, you know, for the Pittsburgh, whatever. I already forget the football team's Steelers. And I'd be like, no, it's not Ben Roethlisberger. No, that guy's 80. He died.

0:01:55 Thomas: Like shit. It's so quick. The turnover is so fast.

0:01:59 Tom: It would be great to have a football conversation, not knowing anything about football, but being swift enough to just make that up as you went and see the look of confusion on the other guy's Facebook oh yeah I really think Walt Scroggins has a shot at it I just but

0:02:12 Thomas: But yeah, they would know so quick quick anyone who knows it does anything

0:02:15 Tom: I know they would know but just like do it with pure confidence just

0:02:18 Thomas: And just be like oh he's a prospect he's a college player

0:02:21 Tom: I not know about Walt Scroggins did I miss a Walt Scoggins memo is there a Walt Scruggins out

0:02:24 Eli: How hard could you fake it to make a hardcore sports fan question their own knowledge

0:02:28 Tom: Like they go home and they're like googling like who the fuck is walt scroggins what the fuck

0:02:33 Eli: That's the problem with phones man you used to be able to lie your way through a lot of shit and people are like oh I've never heard of that and they just take their phone out you gotta slap it out of their hand and be like stop I didn't want to talk about the thing yeah and then if someone googles it and they're like I can't find it you're like oh yeah it's probably not on the internet you know the way nothing is yeah

0:02:43 Thomas: If you're gonna take your phone oh well Google. Yeah.

0:02:52 Tom: I google yeah hey you know like if you go to like chipotle they have a secret menu I think the uh I think the chiefs have a sacred menu of players it's the same thing it's a walt scraggins thing you You wouldn't, you wouldn't know.

0:03:04 Eli: He's a secret player yeah yeah

0:03:03 Thomas: Secret facts. Yeah they don't want anyone to know about him yet.

0:03:11 Eli: it'S nice I I've mentioned before that I have a group of of nerd dads and we have a we have group chat and our families hang out together they spent uh labor day together we spent all day literally morning at someone's house afternoon we went to the park evening we spent it at another person's house it's so wonderful one of us one of the nerd dads is also a sports dad and the other day in the group chat he was like oh yeah and football starting up and we were like shut the fuck up man I

0:03:41 Tom: You exile him from from, nerd daddom?

0:03:43 Eli: I said I said he's gonna get renamed that's

0:03:43 Thomas: He's like you're you're sleeping at the foot of the bed.

0:03:46 Eli: Right yeah I'm gonna report you to whatsapp sir how dare you bring football into this sacred space where we have largely been talking about strategy for the board game arc nova for the last week that's

0:04:00 Thomas: That's it you're permanent bottom for the rest of sorry

0:04:03 Eli: Great yeah you're the permanent bottom them

0:04:05 Tom: That's it. It's so funny. Cause like, I've I discovered is I can have any conversations with anyone because I don't do video games either.

0:04:09 Thomas: Me too oh yeah and

0:04:11 Tom: So I was at a I was at a get together over like the fourth of july and my friends were there and like they're not sports guys for the most part but they are gamers and so I'm hanging out with them and the conversation turns to some video game thing and I'm just like fuck just that I can't do that either I

0:04:27 Thomas: Then they're like all right let's talk marvel and you're like fuck do I live in this society am I actually have I been here yeah

0:04:30 Tom: Fuck shit yeah that's that's increasingly increasingly it's getting pretty rough

0:04:30 Eli: And then you try and jump in with the thing you know about and everyone's like what like I don't forget what I forget what I was doing

0:04:39 Thomas: Tom's like did you read the latest Little Dad Quarterly.

0:04:45 Eli: We ran bikes bikes bikes but that's the thing I like that is genuinely why friend groups form is that you all just find a thing you're talking about and it's like do you guys want to do this for the next 50 years and promise Thomas to never talk about anything that the other ones don't know. And it's like, yeah, we'll just do this. We'll do this or I get to die early. Okay. That guy's going to die earlier. But other than that, we're all, oh God, I'm way ahead of you, Thomas.

0:04:48 Tom: Bikes, bike, bike.

0:05:03 Thomas: I call first death. Yeah, you're right. This was for my hypothetical friend group. I know I've got nothing on you. You called shotgun years ago.

0:05:12 Eli: Thank you. Yeah. Obvious. I'm actually in that conversation. I, but I come up through the center of the circle group and I'm like, I actually have dibs to be the first person.

0:05:19 Thomas: You You called literal shotgun, yeah.

0:05:22 Eli: Yeah. We call it co -baning in our friend group. But gentlemen do you know the only thing worse than the death of rock and roll at the hands of Courtney Love why it's the auto ads

0:05:26 Tom: Shit. My God.

0:05:33 Thomas: Shut up. I hate that so much.

0:05:36 Tom: She had nothing to do with that. It's not her fault.

0:05:37 Eli: The auto ends what are you talking shit okay hey

0:05:39 Thomas: Everyone

0:05:39 Tom: She had not her fault.

0:05:40 Eli: Hey

0:05:40 Thomas: Blames whatever woman was closest to a destructive, depressed rock star who killing himself written in his cards from day one. Whatever woman is closest to them, they're like, she fucking did it. So sexist.

0:05:53 Eli: I'm all here to speak against the sexism and misogyny here's what I'm not going to stand with she didn't have nothing to do with it okay the words used were nothing to deal with it and And I feel like if I'm using heroin and you're using heroin and you shoot yourself in the head, I was at least a little bit a part of the situation.

0:06:15 Eli: No, it's okay. She's given us such great content since then. I think we've all forgiven her. My point is, Courtney Love is like the auto ads.

0:06:24 Tom: I'm purposely not engaging this

0:06:25 Eli: Thank you.

0:06:25 Tom: Because it'll be the whole episode.

0:06:26 Eli: We should.

0:06:26 Tom: It'll be a little bit episode

0:06:27 Eli: I'll do it.

0:06:27 Tom: And I'm not. Nope. Nope. Nope. We'll let

0:06:29 Eli: Bring it on.

0:06:29 Tom: It go. Let it go we got to

0:06:31 Eli: And Yoko Ono broke up the Beatles. Yoko ono did break up the beatles. I don't care what Lindsay Ellis said.

0:06:27 Thomas: It's true yeah

0:06:31 Tom: Have a different there's a parenting show. This is.

0:06:37 Eli: There are the auto ads go over to Patreon if you want to give me money after those opinions which were chill and cool and you now want to give me the money go on over to patreon.com forward slash dear old dads where you get a commercial free version of every single show a little parenting story at the end we get to hear about Tom rocking some tunes at his youngins last week a bit of a cool dad moment for Tom So you check that out. And this week, and I don't usually offer like a special thing, you know, without talking to the other co -hosts about it. But this week if you join our Patreon, if you sign up over at patreon.com forward slash dear old dads, which is as little as a dollar, an episode.

0:07:16 Tom: Feel a little nervous right now Thomas.

0:07:18 Thomas: Whatever this is a no

0:07:19 Tom: This is probably. Probably.

0:07:19 Eli: You agree that Courtney Love killed Kurt Cocaine and Yoko Ono.

0:07:24 Tom: For money, I will agree to that, but on principle I won't. Yeah.

0:07:26 Eli: There you go. Excellent. Yeah.

0:07:27 Tom: But like I can be bought.

0:07:28 Eli: Will agree on audio Courtney Love killed Check it out patreon.com forward slash dear old dads like the history of rock and roll At the hands of Courtney Love Rip into it Alright so gentlemen got a little Bit of a I don't know if it's a bummer I hope it's not A bummer I Don't know what it's gonna be because Um those of you who Don't Know which is literally everyone except tom and thomas because I have a time of my co -workers over at puzzle um past week was me and max's daddy son week uh so my my wife anna bosnick she goes to fiddle camp because she's cool like that fiddle

0:08:11 Tom: Fiddle camp. Is it really called fiddle camp?

0:08:13 Thomas: That's I feel like that's an old timey like ah fiddle camp

0:08:14 Eli: Fiddle cam literally

0:08:15 Tom: That's amazing. I love the name of it. Fidtle camp.

0:08:18 Eli: Goes to fiddle camp in In French Canada. Where she and the other. Pussy hounds. In the Quebecois fiddle scene. Get together and. Ra

0:08:28 Thomas: Kebacua fiddle scene god these these syllables magical syllables you're uttering here

0:08:34 Eli: A hundred percent. They rip into it.

0:08:36 Thomas: Kebacoa

0:08:37 Tom: Was Was there nothing more niche that she could get into out of Because this is like niches of niches of nichas. Is amazing. I love this.

0:08:42 Thomas: Fiddle seen yeah

0:08:44 Eli: So. Wife's passion. Is so funny because. Not only is it folk music. You've already eliminated 90% of the universe. It is. Quebequois folk music specifically. Specifically which is like a tiny part of canada and a part of their culture that's a little bit niche so it's just it's a it's an nesting doll within a nesting dome yeah yeah that's what jk rolling would name like someone from french canada yeah

0:09:04 Tom: That's so funny.

0:09:05 Thomas: That's a Harry Potter character. Cabo Croix fiddle music. Yeah, yeah. If it were a slur, yeah.

0:09:14 Eli: In the common room kebek Lacroix Fiddlecamp was playing with his Niffler.

0:09:18 Tom: Is she 30 years the junior of everybody there? Yeah, I thought so.

0:09:23 Eli: My years younger and 8,000 points hotter than everyone else at Fiddelcamp.

0:09:31 Tom: Hey.

0:09:32 Eli: And also, I've gone to a couple of these things, and she's like, that's René Susson. He's a legend. And I look over, and it's just a fucking, hello, welcome to my village. Welcome man, do you have an extra nose? Yes, it grows out of my ear. Okay fucking cool but I'll

0:09:49 Tom: Dude, as fish in a very small pond, I don't know that we have a whole lot of room to talk either, right?

0:09:54 Thomas: Eli's like man I want to go back to magic camp so I can see some hotties. I can see some real I miss all the threes at magic camp

0:09:58 Eli: I have truly I have never built more mainstream at a magic convention than after I go see my wife's fiddle friends

0:10:09 Thomas: Does curious does anna just like glow and hover just in the presence of all

0:10:14 Eli: It's the best and they all love her and what's amazing is right because I go and they are like oh your wife she is so wonderful and she does not smell like cheese even a little and And I'm like, yeah, no, she takes baths. Oh, I do not touch the water. Okay, cool. I want this conversation to be over. People say that to me a lot. I get it. Would you like me to play you a tune?

0:10:18 Tom: Well, they do.

0:10:43 Eli: I could do that for like 12 more hours if you want. I don't. I don't want that even a little. Okay, I'll be over at the bean dip.

0:10:55 Eli: So Anna is at fiddle camp. I take off work, but Anna is at Quebecois fiddle camp, pied pipering the Quebecua people, and Max is off camp, which means I take off work. And so Max and I spent 10 whole days together. Up, sun up to sundown.

0:11:14 Thomas: It's a long fucking fiddle camp jesus

0:11:16 Eli: Yeah. As just me and him. And it was was really sweet. It was really wonderful. And now keep let, let me, let me just, let caveat here at the beginning, right? I know I've made this joke on the show before, but like, I have to say it, the amount of privilege I have to take 10 days in a row off, of off my job for my wife to be able to go to them. Like I understand all of those things, right. But I took the 10 days off paid money days off where I'm allowed to come and do just parenting all day. And and we did stuff but we had this moment and it's sort of what I want to talk about in the moments leading up to it because you know one of the things that I try to be careful when I talk about on this show is max's disabilities because unlike you fucking heartless goober tom curry who everyone we have agreed not to violate the code of silence I hope someday max does listen to my super good cum tennis ball jokes.

0:12:13 Thomas: God fuck that no I'm with tom on this one hmm

0:12:17 Eli: Okay. And so I think he's going to listen to these and I don't want him to ever hear me talking about him in a way that will make him think that I anything but adored being his dad, right? Really important to me because I know how heartbreaking I would have found it if I tuned into my dad's podcast and he had been like, Eli's crying again right like that would have really hurt me but what we sort of came up against is um was supposed to go to nature camp right the breaks I was supposed to get during the day is there's sort of this very intense nature camp they march into the real ass woods at the real last nature preserve and it's for kids Max's age and older and they put them in these fucking like galosh outfits things and they you know spray them down with any tick stuff because they're going into the deep woods to do like nature shit um and I want to say that like max loves nature right he also has communication limitations and he also has like potty training limitations he is not very good because of those communication limitations at telling people when he needs to go um also being told to go doesn't necessarily work right that way that you can do with kids around three or four years old and it's it's pretty typical right it falls within the realm of relatively typical like you know his preschool teacher manages it and his camp counselors managed it at the old camp because they were just like it's 9 30 go pee and he was like all right whatever you say like

0:13:42 Eli: Once you establish a pattern but I knew in this new scenario would be a little bit of a problem and so I was nervous the whole week leading up to camp because this is like a big scary thing right him going into nature and there's like danger and water and bears and shit and men are also in the woods right so like and

0:14:03 Thomas: You have to choose which one you want to have near you oh

0:14:07 Eli: What of the things that I know about my son that I am very careful about is like max cannot tell you if he is hurting in a way you as an adult need to take seriously until it's too late right can be harmed right then he will start screaming and crying but like a really good example is like if max has a rock in his shoe I won't know until it has hurt him right or if I put his shoes on wrong I won'T know until I notice that he's walking strangely right unlike most typical three-year-olds which I think you both can confirm you put on a typical three-year-old sock wrong they're gonna let you know for the the next 45 minutes about the sock being up.

0:14:20 Thomas: Shit yeah Yeah. Yes and no. I think there's a certain amount of this that's also normal as well. If their focus is on something else, often they can not realize that they've been hurting themselves.

0:14:57 Eli: I was really nervous leading up to the camp and I, I reading the manual and I thought, you know what, this really is not a good fit, right? He needs maybe to be a year older. Maybe he needs to be more potty trained where he can go standing up. Cause he still can't go standing UP. Like this doesn't feel like a good FIT. Called the head of the camp. And I'm like, Hey, like, I think this isn't a good fit obviously like I'm not asking for a refund just think it's not a good fit and I sort of got bullied into taking him anyways right this woman's defense I think she really genuinely believed he could do well there and he does love nature and I was I was on the fence and she was like no we have kids his age all the time like it's gonna be fine we've dealt with kids who have of these kinds of issues before, like, trust me, it's going to be okay. And so even though I had my doubts about it, I sent him. Now, the good news is, and I'll spoil this because I don't want anybody to be afraid, like he's physically fine, right? And emotionally fine. He seems to have had a good time. We saw the photos and videos and he doesn't seem miserable. When I went to pick him up, she was instantly like, hey, can I talk to you for a second? Which is not a great sign. Right.

0:16:05 Eli: And she was like, yeah, we couldn't make him go to the bathroom and he wouldn't tell us when he needed to go. So we think he had an accident. And I was like when she was like, I don't know. And so like my kid had just been walking around in pee pants for an afternoon. Yeah. And like I I, you him naked there and I change him and I wipe him down as best I can. But like I'm tired. He's tired. And, you You like, communication is not easy for Max, so I sit him down once we're calm, because the whole getting naked thing and all that has become an issue now, right? He doesn't want to get undressed in front of all these people, so I gotta do all this stuff, right, we're managing all this, while I'm sort of having this conversation with this woman to see how good or not good it went. I'm also, again I'm still doing that people pleasing thing where I'm like, oh I'm sure it's fine, right. I'm like, it's finding in my head because it's so hard for me to have like a healthy that didn't go well reaction. I get him in the car, I get them dressed, get all the stuff in the in bag of his dirty stuff. And I ask him like next, did you have fun today? And he's like, no. And I'm Like, do you want to go back tomorrow? Because remember, he's supposed to go all week.

0:16:20 Tom: It sucks right

0:17:10 Eli: This was supposed to be my break. And he was like, No, no more nature camp. And I am like, you got it, buddy. We don't have to go Back there. And I wrote the lady a very nice email being like, hey, it's just not a very good fit. But really wrestling with this moment because I I am overly cautious about Max. And that was part of the reason why I sent him anyways, is because I'm a crazy person, right? And so I don't always have the best judgments of what he is ready for or what's a good thing for him. Simultaneously like max has gotten so many therapies and and the the subtitle I put in our little slack chat is please stop pushing my kid out of his wheelchair um because because max says gotten so much therapy and because he thrives so much people often don't see his disability and they don't understand his disability um so they treat treat him like a neurotypical kid. And so one of the things that I've done a lot of reading on is like the experience of an autistic person. Called A Flash of Light, I think is what it's called. But there's, there's there's a couple of them. I'll send it to Thomas. He can put it in the show notes. But there are a couple other like autistic people who have managed to share their experience and also some of the science about that. One of the the things that is really really hard to explain to people when they meet and or see max is that physical discomfort especially sensory overload for kids with autism is not the same as it is for neurotypical kids right it's much more likened to pain um in fact what what um people have written I know people don't like autism speaks but they actually publish uh tremendous amount of really good like first narrative one of the studies that they have put forward recently is that like a lot of what were considered, um, formerly like autistic behaviors are actually like trauma behaviors. Um,

0:18:59 Eli: So one of the things that they've noticed, for instance, in autistic kids over the years, um. So autistic kids do rock. It is a part of their self -soothing thing. Right. But one of things they've notice is that as we have learned to treat autistic people better and as we've learned to help with their, um overload, they rock less. And it is because there's less of a need to self -comfort because people are acknowledging their needs and what they need and who they are, right? In a way that wasn't being done previously.

0:19:30 Eli: I sort of, I had two converse experience, right. I had this experience at camp where I sort of got, oh yeah, it'll be fine. It'll be fined. And then it wasn't fine. And again, we had a lovely rest of the week. It was exhausting, right, being on parent duty 12 hours a day. Um that was my vacation from work this year but like I loved it don't get me wrong like I greatly valued it and the moments Max and I had together you know last week when you were talking Tom about like driving around and doing garage sales like Max and I were driving around on our adventures and finding

0:19:28 Tom: That makes sense yeah yeah

0:20:00 Eli: New play places and going to the museum and like how sweet that was and how how many moments Max had where he like said or did because again communication is is spare on on the ground. So where he said or did things that really communicated to me, he had an amazing time, you know, where he would walk out of the museum and be like, that was such a fun day. Like that's crazy for me, you know? To hear that and get to hear that. And then at the end of it, he gets a cough, right? It's a summer cold, but they're like, hey, Strep is going around. He was just with a bunch of other kids. We're going to put him on an antibiotic. And again, if you don't have an autistic kid, um, autistic kids medicine they don't want is a vastly different experience than giving. And look, I know how hard it is to give neurotypical kids. I'm not downplaying the difficulty of some of the parents listening to this, right? I am sure it is a nightmare. I see him screaming and crying, but like Max will just throw it up, right. He'll just throw

0:20:58 Eli: It out. Yeah. It's not, it's not like a, Oh, you know, he cries for a bit, but then he gets over thing if he can't take the flavor of the medicine he'll just vomit it out instantly right everywhere and then keep vomiting because he can'T get the flavor out of his mouth and then he'll like shake and be unable to stop shaking because of the sensory experience of having vomited um right like so like it's a whole thing so the one flavor he likes uh which is the flavor we all liked as kids is amoxicillin right because amoxicillin's that good good tasting shit fun fun fact, by the way, uh, take it from the parent who's done way too much research. The flavor of amoxicillin is banana.

0:21:13 Thomas: Jesus. That's horrible. I don't know what what amoxicillin is sorry oh

0:21:39 Tom: The pink it's the pink stuff right

0:21:39 Eli: It's the pink stuff. Yeah. It's the straight down the middle, that they tend to give kids for almost everything.

0:21:46 Thomas: I didn't know it had a flavor I guess huh

0:21:50 Eli: Yeah, no, it'S good. It' s got a real banana flavor. They call it bubble gum, but it's banana, so weirdly. So, but I want to talk about this converse experience I had. So we go to the doctor, uh he's on on amoxicillin. They're like, Hey, we got to switch them over to this other one. It's the amoxycillin's not doing it. And I'm like, ah, not awesome. We're, we're kind of really slamming it. And they're like he really needs it. Like this could get serious.

0:22:11 Thomas: You're like can I negotiate my way into different men can

0:22:15 Tom: Can what

0:22:13 Eli: And right. Can I speak to the strep throat, please? I'd like to speak to the strap throat.

0:22:16 Thomas: Yeah can you put the virus manager viruses on please hi

0:22:21 Eli: So I, I am doing a bunch of things. And again, if you have kids who have trouble taking medicine, one of the things that walgreens offers not all of them but some of them is this stuff called flavor rx and they have a banana flavor that they can add to certain medicines right and I had this experience that was so contrasting to the one that I had had earlier that I really wanted to speak to it which is I call the walgreen's near me and I'm like hey um and I've spoken to them before so they like it's it's not like they recognize they know me there I'm not their norm right like hey like anyway but like

0:22:52 Thomas: What Eli what what is

0:22:53 Tom: You walk in there's just a heavy sigh what

0:22:56 Thomas: It yeah that's

0:22:58 Eli: I'm like do you have flavor rx in and do you have the banana flavor and they're like yeah and I'm like yeah I've got to switch over this medication amoxicillin is the only one he takes he has a vomit reaction and this woman on the phone this pharmacist on thephone at walgreens was so understanding she was like oh my gosh this one's disgusting I totally get it yeah we got banana and it's like look it's 750 right I am expecting to pick this up the following morning because the the pharmacy opens at 8 and she's like I I tell you what, how far away are you? And I'm like, I'm five minutes down the road. She's like, come on down. I'll stay late. I don't care. I'm going to mix this up for you right now. And she makes the banana medicine that Max was then able to take and was able to get over his thing. And it's moments like that where someone sees you as a parent of kid with special needs and acknowledges those needs without making you feel like an inconvenience, without making you feel that you've done something wrong or you've asked too much that are so incredibly meaningful to me, you

0:23:36 Thomas: So sweet yeah absolutely

0:23:58 Eli: Thought the contrast of those two experiences um just interesting and I wanted to I wanted to talk about it

0:23:57 Tom: For sure yeah

0:23:57 Thomas: Yeah I feel like I went through life with a certain like being a kid all the way to younger adulthood with a certain idea of what made people for lack of a better word valuable like what makes people like like, that's a great person. That's a, you know, like I had one, one idea of that. And then when I had kids and especially, you Know, after a couple of things that have happened and then you there's, there'll be some random person, there will be some person involved somewhere in the chain, either they're a parent or they're not that treats your kid like it's their kid in some way. And you're like, nevermind, this, this is the best person. There's, no better type of person than that in my book like it's like any other value system I had is like nope that's the best right

0:24:52 Tom: I can I relate sort of right so like I don't want to of like do a one -to -one but like I of my kids are not neurotypical um and so like I feel that sense of like when you bring them into a space where you know it's like okay like I know my kid has sensory issues and has you issues and Has you know other issues that just is going to make this like they're not if everybody just treats them the same as every other kid kid, they're going to be fucking miserable. This is not going to work. And the amount of trust that you have to just sort of have and then cross your fingers and hope when you drop your kid off at an experience like that. And I've had it go well and I've heard it go not well. And it's fucking sucks, man. Like it does. It fucking sucks because like you can have conversations with people ahead of time and you can be like, all right, you know, I think they understand like kind of and you have have to sort of feel out like do they understand what they're going to be dealing with

0:25:55 Tom: Here

0:25:55 Eli: Understand not to feed a sun butter sandwich he'll

0:25:58 Thomas: Do they fucking get it yeah

0:25:59 Tom: And just have to kind of like hope that they're gonna understand it but also you have to hope that their gonna understand in a way that like isn't to your point pushing your kid out of that fucking wheelchair right cuz

0:26:11 Thomas: Some people listen and they're just thinking in their own heads oh I'm gonna fucking tough love this or something you know like yeah yeah

0:26:16 Eli: Be okay yeah

0:26:17 Tom: Man like what's it's like oh yeah they're be just fine I've dealt with a million kids like this and you're like okay like I I I don't want to say like, you know, well, my kid is particularly different than every other kid.

0:26:28 Thomas: Does that mean you've ignored

0:26:29 Tom: Like, I don'T believe that.

0:26:29 Thomas: The needs of a million kids before this or or actually done something about it.

0:26:34 Tom: You kind of wonder if that isn'T a lot of times what happens where people are like, look, you'RE an overly worried parent. We 'VE got 150 kids here and none of them appear to be bleeding. So we'RE, it'S all fine. Everything we'RE doing is fine and nothing we'RE doING has any long -term impact and it'S ALL fine. And it'S, it IS that, like, Like, I will acknowledge, too, that there's that terrible tension as a parent where, and like, well, I want my kids to have experiences where part of the day is good and part ofthe day is less good, and that's okay. It's okay to challenge them. It'sokay to, like, challenge their comfort level. It's Okay for them to be in places where they have to adapt, where the world isn't adapting to them, especially as they get older. Like, all of those things are good, but, like. Only so far, right? Right. Like you can push that real easily, like And this is true even of neurotypical kids. I'll give you an example. Like my dad, I think I've told this story before, but like when Finn was little, Finn was just a little bit nervous and very sensitive. And my dad for whatever reason and Finn did not get along well. Finn was afraid of my dad. I don't really know why, but he really was. He was afraid OF my dad from the jump. And my Dad is not like rough with babies. My my niece absolutely adores my dad and has since the day she was born my dad is a sweetheart with kids but for some reason they just never were able to click and my dad was totally inflexible because it's my dad that's just who he is and he's like yeah it's just and I'll be like dad you just have to be a little more gentle with finn like you just have to like he'll respond to you much better you just are going to have to give him a little bit more space be a Little more gentle he might get a little upset a little easier than you're expecting and he's like I've done this before I know how to handle it and you're just like oh fuck you're not hearing this at all you're just not hearing it and

0:28:28 Tom: Like with kids that have like kids that are like you know some kind of disability or other issue it's like that on steroids right because it's like yeah jesus like not only are you not hearing but my kid can't even express it my even express what you wouldn't hear even if they could and that is really a tough spot that is a difficult spot to be in I don't know how you navigate that differently I think you did the right thing in saying like all right I'm pulling them out of it I think there's a lot of people that like to your point earlier I think a lot of people are like well this is my break and and I really need it, you

0:29:04 Eli: And that was a part of it too part of the like guilt of what I was feeling and dealing with what I Was feeling was also like oh I had this impulse not to send him and did I send him just because right I I wanted my right and I look I did right I was fucking exhausted right when anna came home I just sort of laid on the floor for two days holding on to the earth right you know the joke I make is like the single parents don't exist I believe you're all faking it right you must all just secret yeah you must yes exactly I adopted to thomas's joke you're welcome you're welcomed adopted is a nice word for that I appreciate it yeah but like you know they're all just obviously married to each other and then they see us and they're like oh no

0:29:14 Thomas: For, yeah yeah totally. That's the joke I made. You adopted it. Wow. I'm so honored. Yeah I'm just really proud. Wow! Yeah

0:29:45 Eli: I've been doing it all by myself like yeah it's obviously what's going on but like I had a tremendous amount of guilt about not following my instinct, but it was also exactly that thing you were saying, Tom, right? Which is you want your kid to be able to have an uncomfortable day, right. You want your kid to have a bad day, but the bad day that Max Is capable of having as an autistic young person right now is way worse than we want him to have. Right. I would, we would never want a neurotypical kid to Have a day that included lots of physical pain. Right, right,

0:30:16 Tom: Yeah. You want them to have a traumatic day, right?

0:30:18 Eli: Right. Exactly. Right. But but and unless you're aware that like, yeah, the brass band is that kind of stimulus to Max. Right. And that he needs those accommodations around it to be thought of. So, yeah. It's.

0:30:32 Tom: Like, yeah. When it's gotta be tough too, like with Max, because like, I don't know how you feel about looking out for only spaces that are neurodivergent spaces. So like, for for example, like I'm sure that there are like camps and day camps and summer programs specifically designed for autistic kids. I'm certain of that. Right. So but like there's also got to be like, oh, is that do I always want to do that? Do I sometimes want to? Do I never want to doing that? Those aren't easy questions to wrestle with because you're also, I'm surer, trying to prepare Max for a world where he won't always have 100% accommodations, probably.

0:31:11 Eli: And that's why a mixed classroom was so important to us and why so much of that stuff was important to us because we we knew that um those spaces while often accommodating are often limiting as well right they are often and so for a max you know max needs his limits pushed at the same time um so it's it's really about finding that balance of the new experience that is positive and also understanding no

0:31:41 Tom: Yeah you It's tough and again I I just wanted, like, I'm not trying to one up or anything but like to draw a similar parallel

0:31:45 Eli: The the the conversation is why I wanted to have it yeah so so

0:31:48 Tom: So like You know, one of our kids has a pretty significant uh eating restriction disorder, right? So they will only eat um an unbelievably narrow number of foods, like I I think maybe if the number is 12, if I were to write it down I'd be shocked. And when I say narrow I mean like of those 12 foods, it's like if the packaging packaging changes, if they change the font — inclusive experiences, so they change the font on the packaging — it's now 11 foods, it is that narrow, and they're they're getting help for it we've done this, Thomas, we've we've done this yeah we've absolutely done it, yeah, we we've done it when they've changed the packaging. But I will say that if there's even the most minute change to the — like I'll give you an example, like milk — um, milk specific brand, brand specific, fat content specific package that it has to be packaged in, if you were to change that out from whole milk to let's say two percent milk, 100% I guarantee they would know and notice immediately, and then milk would be no longer a safe food. They they would be like, nope, that tastes different, and not even bad, just different is bad, and that would would no longer be a safe food. Yeah, they have this like very, very, very extremely restricted number of foods and types of foods and packaging of foods that they're going to eat. And so we have to take this into account because, like, if we're gonna take them to summer camp, or we're going to take them to any, I mean anywhere, like out in the world, anywhere, this is something that people by and large don't understand and are not sympathetic to, because

0:32:16 Thomas: I said before save the old packaging. Really Oh, yeah hey yeah

0:33:21 Tom: There's a very severe lack of education around restrictive intake disorders

0:33:25 Thomas: You don't understand tom they'll try just giving them the other foods though, and You haven't tried that you didn't think of that yeah

0:33:30 Tom: They do that's the thing is like there's there's Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah. And it's never occurred to me to offer. Yeah, I know. It's it's insane. And so it materially affects, like, so many of their options in terms of like where they can go, what they can be signed up for, what would be safe if we go travel for a holiday, you know, to go, like, let's say we're going to have like even Christmas at my dad's house. It's like, OK, well, we've got to make sure that we're packing food, because you've got to explain this to people, people that aren't educated about it, you know, people that don't believe fully, even good hearted people who don't believe fully that you're telling them the actual truth. Right. They think that you're telling them like some, like, I can't be that bad, you know, and I think the same is true so much of autistic kids and other neurodivergent kids, where it's like, I I can't. Look, it's just a movie, how loud can it be? And it's like so fucking loud, actually.

0:33:54 Eli: Right. Do they have the things he needs? Yeah, right.

0:34:24 Eli: I didn't like my broccoli as a kid. And it's, like, you had a vastly different experience. At Patreon, Lydia and I were talking about this, that Lydia had an experience where she was talking about allergies to someone, and they were like, oh, there's no sesame seeds on it, and Lydia had to be like, focus in, focus in, focus in. Does not have sesame seeds on it is not the quality we are looking for, you're gonna turn over the box, you're going to look with your eyes

0:34:53 Tom: Right. It's like these these invisible kinds of disorders or invisible kinds of disabilities, whichever, like is so difficult to explain to people because and I don't blame people for not knowing everything about everything. That's the other thing that as a parent, you know, because it's your kid and you've educated yourself and it's like, okay, but I didn't know before I educated myself. I had no idea.

0:35:16 Tom: And then you, you run into people who just don't want that education though. And you're like, fuck, but how can I trust you to take care of my kid? You clearly don't. Want to understand this.

0:35:16 Thomas: It's hard I resonated for me with uh with your story eli was especially the part where it's like yeah and I've talked about this all the time with different different different stuff where you recognize like, okay, I tend to be the person I'm, I need to correct for this thing. Like I am the person who's always like, I'm painfully honest. So when this person's telling me some white lies, am I being too sensitive to that? Like, is that kind of a normal thing? You know? And, and that with the, um, you felt like you kind of were guilted into sending him. I relate really hard to that. It's like, how do you know that's hard? Cause It's like with you and I, I think me more than you have realized how many things I need to fix about myself over the years. And like when you realize like, oh, this is one of those things I'm working on, it's because you're always in that mode of, ah, whatever seems to be happening, I know that I need to bias a little bit in this direction because I've got these issues. And then eventually that can go too far. And it's hard to recognize because you're like, this seems weird to me, but it always seems weird to me. So is that, you

0:36:33 Thomas: Know, and it's, and, and I totally, relate to the fact that you're like, yeah, also it's it, there are things that you can push against when it comes to certain discomfort, certain, even certain disabilities in a way, like there are Things you can test, you can try, you don't, I think there's a component where you don' t want to forever ever prevent every challenge before it happens for your kids in any sense you know you want them to have some challenges sometimes but in I don't trust a stranger to know which things are that and which things aren't oh no this is not negotiable when it comes to any sort of neuro when it come to anything like that there are some things where it's like you can test and be like is this nope okay that's nope that's not a thing you can and a the thing I trust maybe me as a parent to do. And maybe, you know, Lydia as a parent to you, I don't trust some person who's like, ah, relax.

0:37:27 Thomas: It'll be fine. You know, die. No, I know. I don't trust that.

0:37:27 Eli: You're person who's like ah relax you're the last person I want to trust because you're trying to push my comfort zones and I'm an adult asking you with all my words

0:37:39 Tom: That's true. Yeah.

0:37:40 Thomas: Good point.

0:37:41 Tom: Like if you feel like coerced, it's like, oh shit. Like that's actually should be like a giant red red flag but then the problem is you're in the middle of being coerced so I also want to like recognize something too that just occurred to me and I know it's not the thrust of this conversation but max is three right you said he's three four so many kids at four are not potty trained that's not at all unusual to be not potty trained at four, like, I think if you take your kid at four to any space, then should not be an expectation that they're potty trained in that space, that, like, caretaking space should change your fucking kid, like

0:37:49 Eli: Four yeah Yeah, no for sure yeah

0:38:03 Thomas: That's pretty common. Yeah but

0:38:19 Eli: No

0:38:20 Tom: I've never dropped my kid off at the age of four yeah

0:38:22 Eli: He can use the potty, he just can't stand up and do it, and he's also not great at letting people know yeah

0:38:27 Tom: But like, if, like, if a kid of a four-year-old, I guess what I'm saying, like, is a four year old has an accident, like they should be like oh yeah yeah there's just it doesn't like that's so normal it's not even worth mentioning questioning, they should just change your fucking kid, I've never encountered any little kid provider that would be like, yeah, your kid pissed themselves and we didn't change them, I would be beside myself yeah not happy doesn't even begin to cover it, man, I'm right here, dude, I see that with you bro like

0:38:34 Thomas: Normal event. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

0:38:49 Eli: I was really not happy with it and

0:38:56 Thomas: Yeah you don't need to help Eli get angrier that we already know there's going to be a body count Tom.

0:39:01 Tom: But it just occurred to me, I was like why wouldn't they change them like everybody changes a four -year -old isn't this, the standard is like you can't go into kindergarten typically right

0:39:12 Eli: Yeah, I mean, I will say like, it were I to meet a strange four-year-old, let alone one, and someone was like, hey, sorry, my son had an accident, will you help me change him, I would be be like, yeah, I know he's a little kid and he's he's got pee in his pants, why would I not help, right now why would right well believe me I sent that's the thing I sent him with spare clothes yeah I sent them with spare clones and all that stuff I don't know

0:39:24 Tom: I was gonna say I'm sure you sent him a spare clothes you know your kid yeah jesus

0:39:26 Thomas: Why would you not have on hand spare clothes? That's they all do. Right yeah yeah yeah and I meant I meant the facility not you sorry Sorry. Not

0:39:37 Eli: It felt like, so it was for Max's age and up, and there were a lot of older kids there, uh, and so it felt like they were just sort of like, well, the little kid, I don't really know what to do about him, but uh yeah I don't know it was um, yeah, it was tricky, it's tough

0:39:51 Thomas: Great.

0:39:49 Tom: Christ it's not tricky dude the only tricky thing is that you didn't nuke that place from fucking orbit that's

0:39:55 Thomas: It was not cash money. Would you say it was not cash money?

0:40:00 Tom: The tricky part right

0:40:00 Eli: It was not cash money, yes, and I I have a hard — the problem is, like, I — and and there have been a couple of these experiences. We had a doctor experience that was bad, um, I like put my — very luckily this was a female doctor, where I I like put my body in front of her and I was like, hey, no, right? She was like, oh, I'm gonna do a strep test on him, and I was like, okay, cool, let me talk to him first so we did the thing and I was like, just so you know, we're gonna get one go at this, um we're not gonna do this again and she was Like okay right so we do the strep testing, and again he gags and almost throws up, but he's a champ through it, and we're, you know, high-fiving and all that stuff. And then the lady comes in later and she's like, oh, well, you know, I'd really love to get another one, and I was like, oh no, I'm sorry, but like we're only doing the one today. And she sort of — I'm not gonna say like she went to do it, but she like got over and started to unwrap the Q-tip, and I just sort of like put myself in between them

0:40:25 Thomas: Right. I remember this. Yeah. Yeah, it's like a NASA mission. Yeah

0:40:57 Eli: And was like I'm so sorry, like, no all

0:40:59 Thomas: Like that better be for my butthole because you're not

0:41:01 Eli: I'm refusing this medical care", right, is the exact words I used, because she was like very clearly just gonna be like, ah, I'll get them a little. I'll give them when you're not looking.

0:41:10 Thomas: Stupid.

0:41:11 Eli: And I was like, I'll catch you when you look. I get you forever. All right, gentlemen, before we go, I'm quitting my job at the helium factory. Nobody talks. Nobody talks me that way.

0:41:33 Tom: Dumb, I loved it, make

0:41:37 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

0:42:17 Eli: Yoko Ono broke up the Beatles. Yoko Ono did break up the Beatles. I, and she's like, that's René Susson. He's a legend. And I look over, and it's just a fucking, hello, welcome to my village. Welcome