DOD153: Put That Back, We Have Perfectly Good Cheap Garbage At Home

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:29 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that gets what it gets, but still throws a fit. I'm Tom Curry, I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello gentlemen.

0:00:40 Eli: BOOM!

0:00:41 Thomas: It going? Boy, that's just my kids. There's no making them happy. They're just every, you just wait on them hand and foot, give them whatever they want, every, every desire. And then they're like, what have you done for me lately? As in the last half a second, you

0:00:54 Tom: Hey, hey, I can tell you, listen, look, I want to give you some bright light. There's no bright light that never changes. We're 18 years down the road with some of, like, oh God, it's actually, no, it's not, like It's not, it's at a tantrum anymore, but it's sort of like an expectation, right?

0:01:01 Eli: Oh, God. I want to step to the front of the camera and be like, has this ever happened to you? Introducing autism. You buy your kid one toy in 1992 and he plays with that shit in perfect happy silence forever.

0:01:28 Thomas: Know, you now they say, if you can hit one out of three in baseball, then like, you could be a hall of famer. Yeah, not, so not good for that application. You know, I'm going to tell you a story related to that, which real quick. Talked about favoritism before, not the topic of today's show, but we've talked about that and managing that. And I had to check one of those check in with yourself moments where, yeah, that's easy for Eli for, one of my kids had a play date. And so I wake up and it was just about time for them to go to the play date and Lydia's I was like, yep, Arlo's got a play date. And I was, like, oh, Arno's got a playdate, huh? So it's just us and the other two kids, huh, that's, so the one that's the easiest one that is incredibly easy to parent is gone, and the two nightmares are here. That's great, and this is just me thinking to myself and then being, like that's not good, I gotta change this.

0:01:34 Eli: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

0:01:48 Eli: Max is my favorite still four in the afternoon

0:02:25 Tom: Going with Arlo to his play date. Fuck it. I'm going.

0:02:27 Thomas: Yeah. I know.

0:02:27 Tom: Ladies, Thomas

0:02:27 Thomas: I was like, can it just does

0:02:29 Tom: Shows up, he's like, "I got grape, grape juice here, we go." Like, let's fucking party, you bitches.

0:02:32 Thomas: Finn have an older brother

0:02:34 Tom: Don't have a credit card. I got a credit card, we can fuck shit up. Kids just

0:02:35 Eli: You guys, want to go to Legoland. Because we can go to Legoland and we can fuck the Legos. I

0:02:38 Thomas: Or Yeah. Yeah. That's had to check in with my, I had a check with myself and be like, wait, this is sucking in my mind too much, that means I'm, for one, Arlo's just easier, I can't really change that, Arlo is the easiest because, hey, kind of what, uh, Eli just said a second ago go, but for two, I was also the things I like to do can include Arlo more because he just likes those things, and so that day I was like, you know what, that's not good to I, there's a good check-in moment, and then I just did stuff with Phoebe for like the whole day uh

0:03:10 Eli: Was gonna say, did you try screaming at Lydia because you're hungry to sort of connect with Arlo or Remy.

0:03:16 Thomas: Remy, yeah. Yeah.

0:03:17 Eli: Yeah.

0:03:16 Tom: Get into a screaming contest with Remy, they're just, Thomas and Remy sitting there seeing who can scream loudest

0:03:19 Thomas: Oh boy.

0:03:21 Eli: Just covered in teething cracker crumbs. You know what, man? Man, I underestimated how fun this is. We at your mom more.

0:03:27 Thomas: The battle is getting Remy to finish the thing he has in his hand while he's screaming about a different food that he wants. And I'm like, no, you have to think you can't already be screamed. It's fine if you want something else, but you can be screaming about it if you have something else in your hand and

0:03:44 Tom: Remy's like, I'll fucking bet I can

0:03:46 Thomas: Yeah, no. I know. It is. I don't know why I say that. He doesn't respond to any any of that, but I'm not so worried about Remy because I'm pretty sure he's going to be a sports kid. And then eventually I, I'm guessing in about five years, Remy and I'll just be inseparable and it'll just Be doing everything. But, uh, yeah, Phoebe, I got to make that effort because everything she's interested in involves, involves extensive amounts of engagement and energy that are really hard to do as an, a parent, a tired working parent. And also she's never happy anyway. It's like, she's still mad at you at the end of it. So it's very difficult to get yourself to enthusiastically do it constantly. But I did my best and I played with her like all day.

0:03:46 Eli: Right, you spend 45 minutes getting into character for school teacher teaches everybody how to hold their hands in a perfect pyramid. And then she's like, this is the worst day ever. And you're like, all right, well, you know what? Hey, how about fuck you?

0:04:32 Thomas: Yeah. Yep. Like, I hate you. You're the worst. Yeah, that's literally what happens. It's like, oh, cool. And

0:04:38 Tom: Oh God. And I were just talking about this the other day, like, you do all this stuff for the kids, like, you play with them, or like, or all, like, your whole life, it's just, and it's all, you do all this stuff, and they're just like, "Yeah, I expected that." None, and of it counts, like, none of that. If you did any of the rest of that stuff for anybody else, like, anybody else in your life, they'd be like, "Holy shit, what did you You took care of all of my needs right?

0:04:52 Thomas: Yeah. Oh. Oh. My oh, tell me." Which hole you you want to use and Whatever.

0:05:05 Tom: Yeah. For real. But like But kids are just like, "Yeah, first of all, that was the minimum standard no matter what you did." That didn't even see it, right?

0:05:05 Thomas: You need it worse. They're like, "I don' believe that you did that." You'll tell them, "Remember five seconds ago when I did all this for you?" They're, like, "I don know what the fuck you're talking about."

0:05:17 Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:05:22 Eli: Made a disgusting breakfast. That's what I know. Know.

0:05:25 Thomas: Yeah. It does.

0:05:25 Eli: Oh.

0:05:26 Tom: The the The other day, Hayley bought, uh, a shirt for Aislinn. It was, and it's, it's the perfect kind of, like, aesthetic that Aisling likes, right? So, and it's a fucking super cool shirt. It's got this picture of, like, a skeleton holding an umbrella in a meteor storm. It's just fucking cool. Like, it's just a really cool designer graphic on it, and Haley just saw it and thought of Aisline and ordered it and bought it and, like, gave it to her, and it was like, "Okay," and just sets it down. But like, she's not trying to be any which, which way. She's not, like, being like a sulky teenager. It's gets all of her needs met all the time. So it doesn't even seem like anything. It, like, you didn't, it was like, you didn't do anything at all. And so you have to like, stop and be like, okay, you've got to, we actually have to work on being grateful. And we did like, Like, I should work on being grateful.

0:05:42 Thomas: Sound cool.

0:05:50 Eli: Yeah. Right. Yeah.

0:05:51 Thomas: Yikes. I Should all agree that, that it's not child abuse if you make your kids fend for themselves for, like, 24 hours. You know what I mean? Like, just, okay, this is a period of time where you need to find shelter and food and whatever. Do. It's, and, like, Sparta, but not quite as bad. You don't have to kill anyone.

0:06:26 Eli: Yeah. Just once, but starting at, what, like, the first birthday, first birthday, once a year, maybe. That's how we celebrate birthdays till they're 18. And then the 18th birthday celebration, you don't have to do the fending for yourself thing anymore. Surprise! Surprise, you do it forever now. Now you do a forever. You're

0:06:28 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Maybe you only get one. Like as parents, you only gets one of those. And you got to really like, oh, do I want to use it now? Now, oh, is this the maximum ungrateful or should I wait another year? You know,

0:06:52 Eli: Right, exactly. This

0:06:53 Tom: You're seven -year -old loose in the woods with a knife clutched between his teeth, naked, just like, off, off, boy.

0:06:59 Eli: Is how you end up with a barefoot bandit, Thomas. I don't know if that episode is out yet, but if it isn't, I'm just telling you, over on Citation Needed, we've covered, okay, well there, just so you know.

0:07:01 Tom: It. It is out. It's out of citation. Yeah.

0:07:05 Thomas: Oh yeah, I'm way behind. I'm bad. Yes.

0:07:10 Eli: But gentlemen, you know the only thing worse than the terrible abuse that that barefoot child was exposed to and then stole some planes? So he's the bad guy? I was unclear how the cops wanted me to feel about out that story, but we were united as a podcast.

0:07:14 Thomas: Ungrateful child. Oh, I

0:07:25 Eli: And you know the only thing worse than that scenario? Why? It's the auto ads. The auto ads! The ungrateful, screaming children of the podcast experience that come blasting into your ears. Oh, sure, you've listened to that Verizon commercial already, but have you listened to it in Spanish? Have you listened it in what I am pretty sure is Uzbeki? No?

0:07:25 Thomas: Gotta listen to this.

0:07:46 Eli: Well, then you're going to listen to it again! But there is a way to, and I'll say it, abort those podcast ads over at patreon.com/dearolddads where for as little as a dollar you get an extended commercial -free version of every single episode. You get access to our bonus shows. We just had a fun AMA come out where we discussed what we would do if our kids became a furry. You can check all of that out over at patreon.com/dearolddads. Rip into it! It.

0:07:46 Tom: Oh, my God.

0:08:19 Thomas: Double

0:08:21 Eli: Sorry. I couldn't relate to your experiences of child ingratitude. Again, however much autism you got going in your house, I just recommend two clicks, two clicks to the right. Yeah. Double it and pass it on to my son. Uh, so my son and I were in target the other day, um, which we do on the rag. I know I've talked to you guys about this since he was like literally a toddling infant. He has loved running around target and he still does.

0:08:28 Thomas: It. Yeah. Yeah.

0:08:40 Thomas: Yeah. Wow.

0:08:44 Eli: And we have of our patterns that we go, we run through, he goes, he touches exactly this set of bars. And then we go through the same series of questions about those bars and the, and the guy who was mad at it. Yeah.

0:08:51 Thomas: Oh, remember that stranger who fucking sucked and made some comment? Yeah.

0:08:55 Tom: Yeah.

0:08:55 Eli: And was like, really? And I, yeah, I think about him. Here's the thing.

0:08:57 Thomas: You think about his unmarked grave from time to time.

0:09:00 Eli: I Yeah. I think about him, but he, I, he thinks about me more. That's all that matters. Um, yeah, we know, we go through the things and then we go up and down the toy aisles and he touches exactly the toys. Like, I could write it all down ahead, ahead of time and be like, "Then he's gonna touch the tail of this dinosaur, and he's gonna say, 'Oh, scary,' and then he goes over to this style and he does this thing." Though he did find a new noise-making toy the other day that knocked his socks off, and he turned to me and it was very clearly like a dad, "Code red, code red, this, this toy fucking rules.

This toy is so fucking cool." Yeah, I know, I know, we got a plan and I don't want to disappoint you, Dad, because I know how much you love reading One Fish Two Fish Red Fish Blue Fish three aisles from now, but we have got to work with this fucking speaking spell a little bit. You You understand, right? And so we're having a good time, right, and these other parents are walking by, and I just, I am constantly aware. It's a weird thing, and I wonder if anyone with a kid who has autism like Max's has had a similar experience, is that you and this, and your kid, are sort of floating in a bubble, and everyone else is experiencing the world, right.

0:09:00 Thomas: Yeah.

0:09:27 Thomas: We need to change the itinerary.

0:10:04 Thomas: Yeah.

0:10:05 Eli: One, neurotypical kids, they're starting to interact like neurotypical people, right? So they're like, "And then Jimmy said, I want the bubble gum," and "I said, no, you can't have them." But we're just, me and Max are mostly silent, right, unless he is asking me for something or I am asking him to do something, right? We mostly just sort of interact quietly or interact around his toys. Sometimes he'll do narratives around his toys, but like that sort of constant kid jabber that I see around me doesn't really happen. So also an incredibly like polite kid most of the time.

We have a little bit of a block-knocking phase that we're dealing with right now, which is another story, and it's also me and Anna's fault, not his, but anyways, um, I'm constantly like observing the other parents and other parent dynamics. And so this kid is carrying this like toy dinosaur tractor or whatever, fuck, it was, I wasn't looking, and he's like, "What about this one? Can I get this one?" And the dad goes, "No, we can't afford that. How much money do you think I have to spend?" And and what struck me about that in the moment was like, why would your six-year-old know that

0:11:06 Thomas: Yeah.

0:11:06 Eli: Right?

0:11:07 Thomas: Yeah. Saw when we went through the budget yesterday and did our taxes, son. Son.

0:11:10 Eli: Exactly. He sat down with you with Rocket Money and he was like, "Sorry, now, you did say 14 and this is 1699." And like, I have seen that be a part of a lot, lot of people's childhoods. It wasn't a part of my childhood, in case you were wondering.

0:11:24 Thomas: No, crazy.

0:11:25 Eli: Yeah, I know. You'll be shocked to your very core to believe, but like, is this something you experienced? The, like, we can't, I would, sorry, we did experience the, we can afford that thing, but it was like, "Hey, son, it's gotten real bad, like winter has come." We were in a The Road novel, we weren't having, I wasn't like a show my dad was putting on to make me feel bad right? Was my businesses as he's crashed to the earth like the plane in Pennsylvania on 9-11. So I'm wondering, was that a part of your childhood? That sort of, we can't afford that. And how do we have that? Because obviously we want to be better than what we grew up with, which was just like, no, you can't have that. And you're kind of in trouble for asking, right? Do we want to do? And was that a part of your childhood?

0:11:26 Tom: I can't believe that.

0:11:43 Tom: That

0:11:47 Thomas: Yeah.

0:12:12 Tom: For us, we grew up, um, when we moved in with my dad, um, dad fairly, I don't remember how we established it, but my, my recollection is that like, fairly quickly we learned that it, like, was rude or inappropriate to ask to be bought things. Like, we could not just, like, go to the store and be like, can I buy this? Can I buy this? Can I buy this? Can I buy this? Like, like, toys and things along those lines were reserved for special occasions, and we understood that they were reserved only for special occasion. So if you wanted something, you would put it on a birthday or Christmas list and then you may or may not get it, depending on what it was, and, you know, etc. So it, the idea of just being like, it's just Wednesday and we're in a store and you're just allowed to ask for something, and sort of foreign to me. Um, I had a of really kind of revised that when I had kids, because I think that's actually pretty normal behavior.

And it felt really fucking rude. And I was like, oh, I like this is rude behavior that I need to quash as rude because I don't want a rude kid. Right. And I still kind of feel that way, to be honest, like constantly asking for shit feels really fucking crude to me, like really, really fucking nude. I recognize that it's appropriate And it's fine. And like, it doesn't need to be quashed to zero.

Like a lot of rude behaviors really need to Be kind of like, you through with the kiddos so that they don't turn into rude people. But like, I don't ever remember an age where I felt like, because my dad dad is unfailingly polite. And, like, he really kind of enforced that. Like, he doesn't interrupt. He doesn't expect to be interrupted. Like he doesn't hold himself to a standard. He doesn't doesn't perform himself.

But I can't imagine as a kid feeling comfortable just being like, can I have that? Can I have that? What I would do sometimes is if I wanted something and I felt uncomfortable asking for it, I might spend like an intentionally over long amount of time admiring something, you he'll see, I really like this thing, but like, that's just not how it worked.

0:14:16 Eli: Right.

0:14:16 Tom: And my dad was also broke.

0:14:17 Eli: Your Your dad's just reading Mein Kampf, completely not paying attention.

0:14:19 Tom: Yeah. My dad was broke. Like he was a single dad with at least two and sometimes three jobs. So like, he just didn't have the option to buy random shit.

0:14:28 Thomas: Tom's like, boy, I'm just admiring not tiling these floors right now. I just, ah, so great.

0:14:31 Eli: Oh. Boy. He finds someone else's mom and he just keeps, like, blowing the dirt off her. Oh man, a mom, a functional mom. Wow. Where do they find these? Do you know, it's a Home Depot thing, right?

0:14:42 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:14:42 Tom: But Know, part of me wonders too, because, like, it fucking sucks. Like, when Fin was little, I was pretty broke, um, it, it kind of sucks as a parent. It kind of hurts to constantly have to say no, to be like, "Oh, I can't wait to go to the store and disappoint my kid again. That's a fun time. I can't wait to constantly say no." So I have a lot, lot of sympathy, actually, for, like, position of parent, maybe even losing their temper a little. I don't think we should do that. I don't think we should condone it. There's other ways to do it, but, like, I kind of get where that can come from, you know? Like, like, I hated it when Fin would ask for stuff, and, like, my reason for saying no wasn't, like, "Oh, well, like, it's actually just not the right time to buy presents. We don't just buy presents randomly because it's Tuesday, Tuesday," but being like, "Fuck, I'm too broke. I'm too broke for that." Like, I didn't like having to say no. Like, it sucked to have to say now. Oh.

0:15:37 Thomas: Well, my obviously were so good at this kind of thing that we did, we stopped asking for stuff pretty quickly. That's, you can be trained out of that.

0:15:45 Eli: My question, because I, I had a feeling that was going to be your answer. My question was, was it, "We can't afford it"? Was it, "It's rude to ask"? Like what?

0:15:45 Thomas: Um. You know, it was always like, uh, "Too expensive." "Too expensive." Yeah, I just can't afford. "Too expensive." Um, know that I thought, it's not like I thought we were poor per se, it was also just like, my dad was so cheap that it was like more like "too expensive" meant he doesn't want to do it, you know, or something, you know. I didn't really, I didn't think we were like destitute or anything, but I got the message that, like, we, we didn't waste money on things, and kids of anything we wanted was definitionally a waste of money. So we didn't do that.

0:16:11 Eli: Yeah.

0:16:21 Eli: Think that's a form of stinginess that's less common now. Right. Which is that you label something as too expensive because you don't want to buy it, but not because you can't avoid it. You can't buy it because you want to afford it. Right. That is a message that I remember, again, not me, but my friends being sent quite a bit. Right. I remember a buddy of mine growing up, Devin, his mom got him a used bike, and it didn't work. It was something wrong with the bike.

0:16:29 Thomas: Cause right. Yeah. It's frivolous. Yeah,

0:16:49 Tom: That sucks.

0:16:50 Eli: Now, God knows I don't know what was wrong with this bike, but something about the bike made it unusable. And I was over there when he brought this up. He was like, hey, my chain, blah, blah. The pedals, blah... I mean, Tom, you'd have to take it for a ride and tell us.

But was like, you know, everyone's so spoiled out there with these brand new bicycles. These bicycles are fine, and like, you don't... She gave us this whole big spiel. I don't know if you ever had this experience as a kid where another parent would sort of rope you in to their shitty parenting, and you wanted to, like, raise your hand and be like, "I'm so sorry, I'm actually being parented correctly. Do you mind if I step out for this?" Well, I could tell you're going through a divorce, and that's tough, but I'd like to... I'd like to develop normally.

But like, but I... I, again, I like... I think that that, right, and... and also very much the, like, "How much money do you think I have?" Thing that I overheard in the store, right? These things where it gets thrown back on the kid when it's just absolutely not their responsibility to contain that information or know that thing, right? So sometimes Max will come to Target and we'll be like, "Do you want to pick out a present?" And the other day, we were walking, and like, most of the time, I will say, 90% of these presents are a sticker book, a water pens

0:17:03 Thomas: Yeah.

0:18:03 Tom: Right.

0:18:03 Eli: Book. But the other Day, we Were Just Walking, and we were on our walk, and one of the stops on that walk is the big screen televisions, because he just likes that there are iPads that don't respond to your touch. He thinks that's a hoot. He sort of looking at the seventy nine inch, you know, giant television of giantness. And he just goes, this my present.

0:18:12 Thomas: Whoa.

0:18:21 Eli: And I was like, oh, absolutely not. No, 100 percent. No. And it was like, and again, like, Max is very good about it. He was just like, OK, you going on the tour. But like, moment, that, right, would have been an opportunity to be like, "That's too much money." And I think there is a healthy way to have that conversation, because there will come times where he actually wants things that are too much money, and we should talk about time, the, and place to spend that money. But what I overheard was this idea, again, a kid two years older than Max, it's sort of being thrown back at them of like right?

0:18:21 Thomas: Don't You know, our discretionary budget line.

0:18:52 Eli: Exactly. Check out mint check.com, you ungrateful little piece of shit. And, and Tom, especially you have have two, four, like, very irresponsible kids about money, especially the older kids who have probably passed that threshold of wanting necessarily affordable things, um, so I was sort of interested how that changed for you and how you handle that with stuff like Finn and Don, like to Finn, Donovan, not ask, like that scenario, like cocaine.

0:18:53 Thomas: Yeah.

0:18:57 Tom: Yeah.

0:19:17 Tom: To, I want to rewind a little bit and then I'll answer that question. So, like, one thing that that Hayley does or did when the kids were littler, um, and I learned the same thing is Yeah, lots, but separately that didn't solve these problems at all, but we would go to a store, um, and we had little kids, and little kids want stuff, um, would just explain to the kids, like, like, especially like with Eamon, for example, be like, "All right, if you're good." So you put, like, a qualifier on it. Like, "If you're good, we can have a Matchbox car." He liked Matchbox cars. They're a dollar.

0:19:25 Eli: Yeah. Yeah.

0:19:47 Eli: Rule, yeah.

0:19:47 Tom: Your kids into them, they are the greatest kid gift, you or know, something like, hey, you know if you behave in the store, you I'll buy you a piece of Candy. And now they've got something to look forward to. They've got a reason to address their behavior. Behavior and if they ask for something else it's like oh no I'm sorry because like kids are pretty easy in that binary way you could be like like can I have this big screen like oh I'm so sorry actually we're just gonna have a piece of candy and they're just like okay cool I get a piece a candy now they're thinking about their candy tv

0:19:49 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:20:12 Eli: Remember your candy, and they're like, like, "Fuck, yeah, my kid. Oh, I'm so glad I didn't waste it on this big screen TV.

0:20:16 Thomas: Can't eat that smart.

0:20:20 Tom: A charm it actually works really well so you sort of like set a limit and an expectation ahead of time it works really like it really kind of stops that without the sort of of like that you're not allowed to want things sort of bullshit because like that's not good like I think like feeling like you're Not Allowed to Want or Ask for Things Does Not Set a Good Precedent for People in Their Lives Right Like That's Not Good

0:20:24 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:20:42 Eli: Now, Tom, this word you used, I am unfamiliar with it. Limon? Lemic? What is a limic? I've never had one of these.

0:20:52 Tom: Well yes you like max didn't walk out of the store at the big screen tv so he sure didn't so

0:20:56 Eli: He sure fucking didn't hear.

0:20:58 Thomas: And That's reason number million why kids are so amazing, is that you, they really can get excited about anything, like you can you could just, you can hype man up, like you can have this candy wrapper, you know, it's, and they'll go nuts about it if you're good enough at hyping it up, might

0:21:07 Eli: Oh, yeah. Yes.

0:21:07 Tom: Right. Right. The older kids, you know, fairly early on, I mean, maybe like maybe when they were nine, ten, somewhere around there, you know, if they wanted stuff, we would just talk about how much it costs. And then I'd be like, yeah, we can put some chores together for you to earn that. No problem. And, and like, I'm always like very cheerful about it. Like, yeah. You want a fucking Xbox nine thousand or whatever? That's five hundred, like, it's going to take you some time, but we'll put some, like, I'll, the answer is always, I'll find a way to get you there. It might take you a year, you know, I don't know how long it's gonna take you to earn these, you know it's right yeah, there's a usurious interest rate you wouldn't believe it's uh, it's a cycle of debt you're never really gonna get out of son, it's pretty buff and that's still the case for the most part now. Donovan's in college now, so now we sort of, we, we cover some of his expenses, like gas, like insurance.

0:21:29 Eli: Right.

0:21:48 Thomas: Take you a payday loan uh, it's gonna be there's gonna yeah, it's, uh it's WIN -WIN for me yeah hmm

0:21:54 Eli: The juice is running.

0:22:07 Thomas: How does that work? Do you do that formally? Do you have like a, like, kind of amount? How do you handle that? No

0:22:12 Tom: You're going to think I'm a crazy person.

0:22:14 Thomas: I already do. It's, it's fine.

0:22:15 Tom: So for gas, what I've decided to do, and I'm actually going to do it in the next couple of weeks just for cash flow, but I've figured out his miles per gallon and his to and from from school. And I figure he needs X amount of dollars for gas for the year to get to and from school and build in a little bit of cushion so he can go back and forth study or to meet a friend or whatever. I'm not like a total asshole about it, but he'll need a certain amount of money. And then I'm just going to put that on a gas card. I'm going to buy a gas car that has a year's worth of gas on it, basically. And be like, look, pay I'll for you to get to and form school every day, plus a few other days a week if you want to go to study, or meet a friends, or whatever, but I'm like, I'm money, right? Because he does have an allowance. He does do chores.

So I want to pay to make sure that he goes to school. But like, if he wants to just take the car, cause like one of his favorite things to do guys is to take the card, point it in a direction and drive for like four hours. And I'm not kidding.

0:22:15 Eli: Yeah. Yeah. You're super chill.

0:23:19 Eli: What?

0:23:19 Tom: Like he loves. He's done this like 10 times where he'll just drive two or three hours, like, South and then turn around and drive two oder three hours back home. That's, that's great. I don't really care. Like, if you've just driving, and I love to drive too, as its own activity, I get it.

0:23:19 Eli: I... What?

0:23:35 Eli: Feel like you should care that your stepson's favorite activity is almost escaping.

0:23:41 Tom: I love the drive too. Like just the action. I love the activity of driving. I like to drive.

0:23:44 Thomas: Yeah. I can, I can relate to that a little bit.

0:23:46 Tom: So yeah, you put on some music, you relax, you zone in, you just kind of cruise. I get It. But I'm not paying for that. Right. Like he can use his allowance money for that, which I guess I am paying for, but I'm not paying separately for it. You know what I mean?

0:23:58 Eli: Sure. Now, is he living at home while he goes to college for the first two years, right?

0:24:01 Tom: Yeah. He lives at home. Yeah. Yeah. He'll live at home the whole four years.

0:24:04 Eli: Oh, I didn't realize you had planned the other two years all right, and

0:24:04 Tom: Yeah. Yeah, so we already know where he's going to transfer out to, and we've got his schedule built for that transfer already.

0:24:12 Thomas: Tom's already planned out the gas for that, and then, yeah,

0:24:14 Tom: Yeah. I

0:24:14 Eli: He has the gas, I was gonna say, yeah. Now Donovan, you are gonna have to walk to graduation, because that is, unfortunately, this new fiscal quarter. True.

0:24:19 Thomas: Fixing

0:24:17 Tom: It's not, you know, well No. It's, I'm paying 100% of all of it, I'm playing the insurance, I bought him the car, I'm paying for the gas, but like, it's not an infinite well that you can just dip in Right. Like Yeah.

0:24:34 Eli: Yeah. You don't want that to become that's

0:24:35 Tom: Like it's not like you just, I'm not giving him my fucking credit card

0:24:38 Eli: How you end up in Georgia camping with a stranger you've only met on Fortnight. Yeah.

0:24:43 Thomas: Doors and doing tricks for money. Jesus.

0:24:44 Tom: So So And I'll make sure Finn has the same thing, you know, I'll make sure that he, because like, if you're going to commute to school, and I do want them to live at home because they'll be more successful just knowing who they are personally, then I'm going to have to provide the way to get to school. Like I went to college, my dad, my dad didn't have any money. Like he very didn't have any. So, he very much was like, you're going to go to a community college.

He did not brook any conversation about that. So I was like oh shit, because I had different plans. So I was, like, well, I got to go this community college, the community college by me is 40 miles away from where I lived. It's a drive, I didn't even have a car. And he was like, Well, get a ride with a buddy. You know, I don't know what you're gonna do. He's like you got to get a right with a friend.

He didn't have, he couldn't buy me a car, so he didn't have the cash to do it. So I had to, for a while, for like a semester or two, I had a schedule, all of my classes at the same times that were convenient for me to get rides to and from college. I don't want to do that to my kids. That was

0:24:47 Eli: Yeah.

0:25:41 Thomas: Yeah.

0:25:41 Tom: A lot of hassle.

0:25:41 Thomas: Yeah.

0:25:41 Eli: I appreciate you not doing that to your kids, Tom, and have to probably call some kind of service.

0:25:45 Tom: But I get it. Cause I have, I have resources he didn'T have, you know, he didn 'T have fucking 20 extra dollars. You know, that's why he was working.

0:25:45 Eli: Right. Or love for his son. So, yeah.

0:25:52 Thomas: Jesus.

0:25:52 Eli: I guess there's a lot of, right?

0:25:52 Tom: He was working three jobs at that time, three jobs. So like, I get it, you know, like drove a bus in the morning at five o'clock in the morning, then he went to work all day, and then he was a janitor at night. So like, I can't fault the man for how he spent his money. Yeah.

0:26:08 Thomas: That's fair, but it does suck because you do have to put these arbitrary limits on it, you know, and it's, here's the thing, I have gotten, I think, better at not, again, because stuff is so affordable now, that's the other component of it. Back when we were kids, it really wasn't as affordable. Sorry, it was the start of like that, but now the ubiquitous plastic crap age, it's so affordable, there really can't, for the most part, can't, uh, truthfully tell my kids we can't afford this, you couple dollar thing that you want, um

0:26:37 Eli: And, and I can't afford it is not a good reason to To have that conversation.

0:26:41 Thomas: Exactly, yeah, that, that That almost should never be, even if you can't afford it, I feel like that shouldn't, I can't, I'm not going to judge anyone who, that's their situation, but like, that, that guilt on the kid regardless is tough. And a lot of people do that, kind of making it up when they can't afford it and say, ah, we can't affordable that. And I feel that's putting a lot on the child that maybe you don't need to, perhaps. Yeah.

0:27:02 Eli: Yeah, because I, if it's true, right, needs to be such a gentle conversation about your family's needs and wants and limitations, and needs to be done in a way that makes sure your kid doesn't internalize that as their fault in any way, shape, or form, right? So that's why I think it's so important that, like, can't afford that and not become a weapon to shut a kid up.

0:27:23 Thomas: But

0:27:25 Tom: I think for little kids I totally agree with you. I think as the kids move into, I don't know, maybe fifth grade or so, you know, 10 years old, give or take, I think it's perfectly reasonable to have, because the kids are at that point are starting to understand class difference. They're seeing it in other parts of their lives and there's no escaping it. Going to have to address where you are in the sort of class structure at some point, right? Because either you can afford something and their friend can't and, or you can't afford something. And their friend can, and they see that they feel that.

0:27:29 Eli: -hmm. Sure.

0:27:58 Eli: Max is going to ask why he keeps sicking the dogs on all his friends when they come over. So, yeah, that does make sense.

0:28:08 Tom: So I actually think that we have to have real conversations that aren't full of guilt, right? So the example you gave in the Target was really poorly approached. I totally agree with that. It's a shit approach to it. But I think that kids very early on can see the difference, especially in places like where I live, where school has 3 ,000 kids in it. There's There's an enormous amount. And then the junior highs have like 600, 700 kids in them. Like there's a huge population base that feeds into these schools. So there's been a lot of class difference. There's a lot like resource difference that they're exposed to that there's kind of no getting around addressing in some way, right? Like there was when I grew up, like we couldn't buy, like this is so dated. It's so funny. I'll just like name the brands, like the big brands for clothes. When I was a growing up was, like, Cavaricci, Z. Cavarici and IOU IOU and Z. Cavirici were like the big brands.

0:28:37 Eli: Right. Oh, yeah. Baby.

0:28:52 Thomas: Never heard

0:29:09 Tom: Yeah.

0:29:09 Thomas: Of those, yeah.

0:29:10 Tom: Because I'm a million years old. Dude, I'ma million years older. These

0:29:10 Eli: That's because Tom's 8000 years old. Yeah. He might as well have just said zoot suits and metal tipped shoes.

0:29:16 Tom: For real. This is fucking

0:29:19 Eli: Help defeat Hitler with Z Cavaricci's.

0:29:19 Tom: Old as shit. Right, like you You wore these things with, like, your acid wash jeans. It was a whole, fuck, I'm old. I'm older as fuck. So, like, but this stuff was was expensive, so I never owned it. I was super aware that I didn't own this stuff and that other kids did, and kids become aware that, like, maybe they don't have the fucking Xbox 9000 and the other kid does.

0:29:22 Thomas: Oh my God. Yeah.

0:29:40 Thomas: No that's a good point. I think it does change as you, I have a couple thoughts, like, on one hand, I think sort of hold out the idea that that, like, because we can't afford it is maybe not ever the right exact reason for this stuff. But then I realized I'm biased more toward the little kids and what they're asking for, which is just yet another duplicate fucking toy or book or thing they already have.

0:29:41 Tom: Right.

0:30:01 Thomas: And the real reason is you don't need that. Like the real reason. Like, Hey, we have plenty of stuff at home. We should enjoy the things we have. If if I'm just being honest, I don't know. I what the right thing to say is even irrespective of that. The honest answer is never we can't afford it because it's a three dollar thing that I could probably easily afford. It's more you don't need it. You already have a bunch of stuff that's exactly like that.

Learn to enjoy the stuff you have. And then when they get older, I the clothes thing, you're totally right. It's like you see your friends who have these nicer things. And then, you know, my parents could only is mostly hand -me -downs or just the bullshit is bullshit. And I guess answering the question of, hey, why can't I get this nice brand when my friends have that? That that's going to be a tougher one. I'm not totally sure.

I want to get interested your thoughts on that. Like I could also imagine again, probably won't buy my kids just like whatever they want when it comes to these, kinds these of things. And I'll want to have an answer. I wonder what that should be.

0:30:01 Tom: Well, want to give a potential solution for when you're broke, because I was fucking broke when I had Finn and he was little. So genuinely very broke when Finn was little, like for a long time, like, you know, like, I'm not sure how the rent's getting paid type of stuff. Like, it was very, very broke. So, but, like, had no idea for the most part. But, like, what I would do with Finn, because it was super affordable and I wanted him to have the experience of getting fun new junk, because kids love that kind of stuff, is we would go garage saleing, and so if we were in the store, for example, and then I could use that.

So, like, every Saturday in the summer, like, I had this kind of routine where I'd, you know, wake up and Finn be up already, you know, like, we'd, you, he and I would get in the car and we would drive around to some neighborhood or drive around and he would spot the garage sale signs, all excited, he's a little guy, you know, and I'd be like, "Oh, there's one, you know," make a big deal about it, and I drive around and I'll be like, "All right, we can pick out anything for five dollars, you know," like $5 was like the limit or whatever.

And so he'd walk around and he'd be like, oh, this is $1. I'd be, okay, you still have $4. And we'd do the whole thing. You spend virtually no money. We'd spend the whole day doing

0:31:05 Thomas: Hmm. Yeah.

0:32:05 Tom: It. He loved it. He loved It.

0:32:05 Thomas: You're maximizing effort and time to money spent, which is smart. Smart.

0:32:10 Tom: Great experience together. We would talk in the car and had this wonderful experience. And then also later, if we were at the store, I can I get this? Like, oh, sorry, dude. I got to save our money for garage sailing. And he'd be like, oh yeah. Cause he now loves that, right? That's an experience that he gets to have. And so it's a way when you're broke to sort of be like all right, like I still want you to have the experience of having fun and finding things and picking stuff. Like, I don't have any actual money. So like, this is how we're going to do that.

0:32:39 Eli: Right. Right.

0:32:41 Thomas: So Tom, you're telling me you didn't bark at him. Hey, hey, you haven't consulted the quarterly reports. We don't have, have you checked our line

0:32:47 Eli: Going to die, you better do it.

0:32:48 Thomas: Yeah.

0:32:48 Tom: Yeah, right. So, and that was a fun thing, and we found cool shit. That was the other thing is like, we actually found Like cool shit. So, but yeah, I mean, you're still, as Thomas, when they're little, like you are, we've talked about this, but you are the Great Pacific Garbage Patch.

0:32:48 Eli: Yeah. Oh.

0:32:54 Thomas: Oh, that sounds amazing. That's such a good idea. Yeah. Yep.

0:33:04 Tom: Like, that's, that's what you are. Like, you're just like a swirling garbage patch of plastic, impossible, possible, multicolored garbage, just trash, just absolutely. I don't know how you avoid that. Like I don't know. Well,

0:33:16 Thomas: Yeah. Oh , that's what I started to say was like, I have gotten better about that for myself. And then a birthday party will happen and everybody brings your kid. Another thing of plastic garbage that like, man, it's tough. I don't know what to do. All right.

0:33:24 Eli: Yeah, baby yeah then

0:33:31 Tom: I used to do, like, a, a out, like, around Christmas, like, okay, well, Christmas is coming, we gotta make room for new stuff by donating. And I will say, like, Finn really got into the donating stuff. Not every kid is gonna buy that. Not every, some kids are super, like, like, for sure super, super protective around her things, like her things matter in this totemic way.

0:33:48 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Phoebe writes a one act play about how that thing was the very thing she's always wanted forever. And she's cries and

0:33:50 Tom: Yeah. Right. So it doesn't work for everybody. I want to suggest it does but like it does work for some like

0:33:58 Thomas: Yep.

0:33:57 Eli: She moves on to the next thing writes another one-act play about the Anna

0:34:01 Thomas: She's prolific.

0:34:02 Tom: I guarantee that would have worked for Donovan too, because Donovan wasn't as, like, because you're not going to get rid of, like, their best stuff. Like, you make decisions together. It's just, but it lets you do, like, a clean out or a clear out.

0:34:10 Thomas: Yep.

0:34:12 Eli: Don't know if you guys suggested this on the show or if I've even mentioned this on the show, but Anna has a brilliant two-step process for getting rid of shit, which is she'll wait until some shit hasn't been played for, for a, a while, and then she takes it and moves it to the basement.

0:34:25 Thomas: Hide it. Yeah.

0:34:27 Eli: She just moves it into the basement, if for it, she goes, oh, you know what? I think I put that in the basement while I was cleaning. Goes and gets it, brings it back up, still part of the thing. Month? Two months? Hasn't asked for it? In the trash! Mm -hmm.

0:34:40 Tom: Yes, yes, that is quality.

0:34:41 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Smart.

0:34:44 Eli: Or donate it, as the case may be. I recently Joined a curb alert group, which is the best, because it's trash, but they come get it from you. Uh, only thing you need to learn is no holds, uh, which I did not know when I first got on and had an absolutely miserable first afternoon where I just had, like, 19 people be like, "Yes, I absolutely want to come get that thing," and then not show up and be like, "Sorry, can I get it tomorrow?" And I was like, "But you said you said, and there's so many other people who wanted it, but now I'm just like, it's here. Come get it or don't. I don't care.

0:34:44 Tom: Right. Right. Yeah.

0:34:44 Thomas: Uh, yeah, yep. Yep, yeah

0:35:17 Eli: And that's the best. Then they just do.

0:35:19 Tom: But You

0:35:17 Thomas: Wait a minute. I didn't know this was an option. What is this? I need this.

0:35:20 Eli: Oh yes. Okay. Okay, so let me give you a little pro tip. Hey, thanks for tuning in to Dear Old Dads. Here's a little one for free. If you're on one of those buy nothing groups, right, and you don't want to have 97 Facebook messages, right? What you do is you say, is on the porch at this address or at the corner of this and this. First come, it's yours. No holds, no need to message me for it. Whoever comes first can have it. And then you just post it. And it's fucking amazing two seconds later someone

0:35:50 Thomas: Wouldn't people still be like, hey, is it still there? Hey, is it's still there. I'm saying when they still message you that though.

0:35:53 Eli: Late No, no, not so far I

0:35:57 Tom: Okay.

0:35:57 Eli: Think the fact that I write no need to message me discourages a lot of people. That's possible.

0:35:57 Thomas: Oh, all right. Yeah. But people don't read or follow directions ever. Okay. Yeah,

0:36:04 Eli: Yeah, Tom, stop. That's Too many Fucking sneezes.

0:36:09 Thomas: Tom's just dying over there.

0:36:10 Tom: Thank you. Thank you. I needed somebody to intervene.

0:36:13 Eli: What are you doing? Three,

0:36:14 Tom: I needed something to intervene. I appreciate that.

0:36:15 Thomas: Yeah I didn't

0:36:16 Eli: Four, Five.

0:36:16 Tom: Yeah. No.

0:36:17 Eli: During allergy season, that's

0:36:16 Thomas: Know that was that

0:36:19 Tom: I'm always, I'm always a nine to ten guy.

0:36:19 Thomas: Was like 40.

0:36:21 Tom: You know.

0:36:21 Eli: Like a clapper. That was like a clapper, like we had time to delay on the fucking thing.

0:36:22 Tom: Yeah.

0:36:22 Thomas: It's like a semi semi -automatic sneezer. He's got the bump stock on his sneeze. Yeah.

0:36:27 Eli: Yeah, Yeah.

0:36:29 Tom: It's legal now, you don't have to worry about that. Yeah, it's good, it's It's good. It's a bump

0:36:30 Thomas: Murder

0:36:30 Eli: Exactly. Well, it's not called a bump stock, it's a automatic retraction sneeze sneeze of fire bump stock Oh.

0:36:36 Tom: Stock.

0:36:37 Thomas: Device. Yeah.

0:36:46 Eli: Right, gentlemen, before we go: why do people hate Russian nesting dolls? Because they're full of themselves. You

0:36:54 Tom: That's actually pretty good.

0:36:56 Thomas: I actually couldn't think of that one in time. That was good.

0:37:02 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith who also wrote and recorded the intro music which is used with his permission this podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC copyright 2022 all rights reserved

0:37:42 Eli: Defeat Hitler with Z Cavaricci's.

0:37:58 Eli: Out mint check.com you ungrateful little piece of shit and

0:37:56 Tom: Thank