DOD127: 'Not Dying' Is Women's Work

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's got a pocket full of your meds. I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:34 Thomas: I don't want Eli's meds. I am worried.

0:00:38 Eli: I was gonna say, I got way more than a pocketful of whoever's listening to this as mens. I'm a whole pharmacy of everyone listening as mens!

0:00:42 Thomas: Yeah. Whatever Eli's taking causes him so many kidney stones. Oh! That's the bonus story of last! Sorry. Patrons know the different weird ways that Eli is unhealthy.

0:00:55 Eli: That's right. That's right. Think that's right, everybody.

0:01:00 Tom: That's it. All the ways his body is trying desperately to finish the job. That's just...

0:01:04 Eli: I think It's nice because, you know, look, for a those of you who don't listen to our other shows, all none of you, my No Illusions, had a heart attack this past year and it was very surprising and scary and I'm just comforted knowing that when I die no one will be surprised. Right, everyone will be like, all right, there it was.

0:01:22 Tom: Yep.

0:01:22 Eli: All right, so Kara or Marsh or are they gonna switch off? What are we doing, what are we doing about filling that spot, Tom?

0:01:23 Tom: That seems

0:01:24 Thomas: Oh

0:01:32 Tom: Today we're going to talk about an article from the hard-hitting journalism website of Psychology Today, which is essentially just clickbait. It's mostly just click bait.

0:01:39 Thomas: Is that not a good one? I actually forgot. That's

0:01:41 Tom: No It's fine. The thing is, Psychology Today psych

0:01:44 Eli: Doesn't think psychology is real, so you gotta again you gotta take a big grain of salt. Why,

0:01:45 Thomas: Right. Good point. Sure.

0:01:48 Tom: Not true, that is not true. But Psychology Today, is it's got got some good stuff. It's got some not so good, more clickbaity kind of stuff. I want to acknowledge that this article is not deep on the details here, but I did think it was interesting and worth a jumping off point for a conversation. It's an article about how men's neglect of self-care impacts their partners. Is there anything worse, Eli, than men neglecting their own self-care?

0:01:55 Thomas: Yeah.

0:02:15 Eli: It's the auto ads, Tom, that's right, the kidney stones of our podcast passing through, leaving you peeing the blood of automatic advertising, but you can start taking a bunch of weird stuff that makes your pee hole bigger, or I don't know what those drugs are, but you could do it over at Patreon. That's

0:02:24 Thomas: Sounding

0:02:34 Tom: It's all The sounding that you're doing, that's the cause

0:02:36 Eli: Right, yes. Well, I told him, I told Dick Seaman, I'm not giving up my sounding, I'm a podcaster, um, wow, you sweet, sweet babe, you newborn babe, swaddled in fresh linens.

0:02:37 Tom: Yeah, yeah.

0:02:43 Thomas: Oh this is one I don't know that you weirdos know, oh, no Yeah.

0:02:53 Eli: Anyways, patreon.com/dearolddads so get a commercial-free version of every show, you'll be helping pay for my kidney stones, and you get a monthly bonus episode, we did a super fun bonus last month of an an AMA, and by the time you hear this, I think a new AMA will be posted. Not the episode, but the thing to write questions on. So, if there's something

0:02:46 Tom: Sound oh yeah

0:03:16 Thomas: Take another

0:03:17 Eli: You've been...

0:03:17 Thomas: 30 years for the episode we're

0:03:18 Eli: Yes, exactly. But if there's something you've been wanting for us to talk about, well, head on over to patreon.com/dearolddads dads.

0:03:27 Thomas: Like that book, that's definitely really good, that I I have to confess I haven't read the Douglas Adams one, where, don't, isn't that the whole 42 thing where they build a supercomputer and they they wait like a billion years or something, and yeah, we're that, that's us, yeah.

0:03:35 Eli: That's right, yeah. Hitchhiker's Guide, yeah! That's right.

0:03:35 Tom: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy yeah All so I'm going to start off and just kind of give the listeners a summation of the the article. And then we can use that as kind of a jumping off point. So there's three key points. Men's neglect of their health doesn't just harm them. It imposes unrecognized burdens on their partners. Men face several all or nothing misconceptions about health self care, which hinder their health and relationships. And their health as interconnected with their family and social roles. And I don't want to spend our time I'm really going through this article, except for that. I I read this thing and I thought seen this so much. And I did the intro intentionally because I I've known so many people who's like wives carry around like a purse pharmacy.

0:04:00 Thomas: Yep. Oh, Is that what that was, I honestly didn't understand the intro, no. I'm not joking, okay that's a relief Jesus

0:04:30 Tom: And I'm sure you've seen this like where women carry around an entire pharmacy in their purse of essential, like, medications, sometimes for their husbands, and like have timers in their phones for their husband's medications, yes.

0:04:45 Eli: And fight them about it, right, like that's a, it's almost like a sitcom trope of the, like, she's always bugging me to take my blood pressure medication, and it's like, yeah, man, so you don't fucking die.

0:04:47 Tom: Yeah yeah

0:04:45 Thomas: Yeah oh my god, yep you Idiot. Yeah, hate it so much what

0:04:56 Tom: It's a, it's a whole thing, like men statistically are much less likely to go to the doctor, get a regular yearly checkup, do their blood work, go to to the dentist, like

0:05:07 Thomas: The hell of a way, you know how we have so many weapons, we have weaponized incompetence, that's the hell, the thing we're like, oh, I don't know how to do the day, oh I, I broke all the dishes. Guess you, but it's amazing. Men reach a level, shitty men. And this is, this is absolutely true. They reach a levels of avoiding having to do any labor where they're like dying and they're like, ha, now you have to keep me alive. Ha ha, joke's on you. I'm not keeping track of something. That's women's work. Oh, oh, what's that you want me to do? What if I don't? I'll fucking die. So you better do it.

0:05:24 Tom: Jesus.

0:05:38 Eli: Ha don't tell me what to do, I'll die instead. Well, I'll example, I know half a dozen people whose fathers did not do and or get their diabetes treatment, and it killed them, right.

0:05:42 Thomas: Seriously, I really think that's it.

0:05:54 Thomas: That's my dad.

0:05:54 Tom: Christ. No

0:05:55 Thomas: That's mine. That's dad. Have I said that on the show? Because I'm one of them.

0:05:58 Eli: Like realize it was your dad too but I am not kidding, I know, like, six or seven of my friends who have been like, yeah, you know, my dad just, he wouldn't take his medication and he wouldn't go get his kidneys cleaned, so he died, and I'm like, like, yeah, no, your dad committed suicide actively.

0:05:58 Tom: Yeah

0:05:59 Thomas: Yeah. Fucking crazy. Well, that's weird. Okay. So I thought that was like, I didn't think it was like my dad was the only one, but I did think that it was a particular craziness of my idiot dad. But to hear that that's that common is a wow. Okay,

0:06:26 Eli: Maybe I, I just have incredibly unlucky friends, but yeah, I was absolutely blown away by how many men of sort of our parents generation were just like, what the thing? Nah, not for me. I

0:06:40 Tom: So much toxic masculinity that goes into why this happens, I think, like, so much, and the article kind of points that, I do want to go back to it real quick because it's it really draws three distinctions that I think are interesting. And it's like strength versus vulnerability. And that like trope, that male trope that like men are supposed to show strength at all costs and resist demonstrations of vulnerability at all contexts. And like, I think that the like acknowledgement that men can get sick or be hurt or, you know, need help in any way is socially kind of preferred, still that still is very much socially, I think, advantaged, reinforced, and and it, like, for some men they read that as like, all right, well, I guess like I'm just going to pretend I'm not sick, I'm juste going to decide that nothing hurts and just decide that that I'm not ill and that I, you know, need these pills or whatever I

0:07:23 Thomas: It's so crazy. I I want to ask you gentlemen, a question. here'S Can what I'm finding with this article. And I don't know if it's just because of my dad or what, but But I feel like I 100% can understand this, but I can't put it into words. Like, I feel, like, I just know the feelings of, you know, how the people who don't have the inner monologue, somehow they still have thoughts. I don't fucking get it, but they don't, I don' get it. But they do. There's going to be, like 100 of them that will message us because it is like 1 % of people or something.

0:07:53 Eli: Think they're lying for the,

0:07:55 Thomas: Yeah, they are, they're a zombie.

0:07:56 Eli: For the record. I Think those people are lying,

0:07:57 Thomas: They're philosophical zombies.

0:07:49 Tom: Don't understand that either nope

0:07:58 Eli: Right? No, no. I don't even think they feel as I think they're lying about the thing. I think the way that's been described is a failure of language for them to understand it. I think They have the thing we have.

0:07:59 Thomas: No, Oh, God.

0:08:03 Tom: Nope.

0:08:12 Eli: They just don't like the description. So they're like, no, I think it's like people, you know how when people learn about synesthesia, they're, like, No, I have synesthesion.

0:08:11 Thomas: All right. Here goes.

0:08:20 Eli: And then you're, Like, no, you actually don't. This is the thing that has synestesian. And they're like, I do, I smell colors. And you're like, you don't, you don', don't you have colors, you see them and then you think of smells, and right now in this moment feeling wrong would feel worse than not lying about synesthesia

0:08:20 Thomas: Oh, yeah.

0:08:37 Thomas: But But there are people who do have synesthesia, though, like there's still there are people who don't have the internal monologues.

0:08:39 Eli: Yeah they're like people who have schizophrenia and are

0:08:43 Thomas: I do agree. There are certain I've definitely seen a certain percentage of people who think like, oh, converted it to you actually hear voices or something like that Adam said, I don't have that. And it's like, no, it's yeah. But you do have an inner monologue. It's probably just not, you is that what you're saying? Like the people who think it's, like, literal voices or something?

0:08:43 Eli: On mushrooms yeah actually think it's really fascinating, right? Because I think that this is just a failure of communication, and also the the fact that, like, sometimes, and this is true, I talk about mental health, right, sometimes someone is like, the thing I am, am, have, do whatever the thing I am makes me special, right?

0:09:18 Thomas: The thing I am. Yeah. Yeah.

0:09:21 Tom: Sure. Right.

0:09:23 Eli: Even when it's bad, right?

0:09:23 Thomas: Yeah, that's true.

0:09:24 Tom: Yep.

0:09:25 Eli: So you have to be like, hey, you know what, they just found out, like, right, gluten sensitivity, right? There take a moment because it's hard for people to recall now, but but everybody had a gluten sensitivity.

0:09:29 Thomas: Oh, God. Yeah. Everybody.

0:09:36 Eli: Every fucking person had a gluten sensitivity, and then they came out and there was like, there's no such thing as gluten sensitivity and the response universally was not, oh man it's crazy what my brain did, like making me think that that made me sick. They'd be like, actually one out of 250 billion Americans does have a gluten sensitivity? Uh, so that's probably me.

0:09:55 Thomas: There is a gluten allergy, right? Wasn't that what it is? Like, people can have a gluten allergie, but there's, yeah.

0:09:56 Eli: Yeah. Right. People have a gluten allergy. To the person, not Not one person in my life, these motherfucking wheat spiting motherfuckers, not one person of my life went, yeah, I made that up. I'm sorry. I saw a thing on the internet and I made it up. Everyone was like, I have Hashimoto's disease.

0:10:13 Thomas: I up.

0:10:16 Eli: And it actually combined with my fibromyalgia to get with my fucking.

0:10:17 Thomas: Uh, man. Sorry, I used an elaborate metaphor that like but it wasn't interesting launching up but no

0:10:25 Eli: I said, no, that's me. That's me, my enemies list got in the way. Pee some blood in the corner.

0:10:28 Thomas: All yeah no but the I I don't know if it, yeah, I don't know if it's because my dad or what, or or if it's just a general, like, I I feel feel like I'm aware of and can feel some of the impulses of toxic masculinity, even though I do my best to resist them. But that, like, I get it. It's like this unspoken thing where I understand these impulses, because I'm having a hard time putting into words. I don't know if you gentlemen can help. And the article kind of did, but I I'm not sure if it really captured it. I did like lot a about this article, but this particular thing, it's free sympathy or something. It is also, it's sympathy. Oh, yeah, maybe that's it. I think that what it is, is it's a way that men get to actually be sympathetic, but while still seeming tough.

0:11:08 Eli: Right.

0:11:08 Thomas: Because that's what it is. I really think that's it. And they get taken care of. That feels nice. Like someone else cares about, if you get to do the tough guy thing of, I don't care about my health. I don'T care. I'M SO SELFLESS. I DON'T CARE ABOUT MY HEALTH. Oh, cool. That means everybody else Do it for you?

0:11:09 Eli: Right. It's sympathy without vulnerability.

0:11:24 Eli: Well, think about the male fantasy we've watched acted out a hundred times in movies, right? Which is that the cowboy got shot, but nobody noticed because of how hard he was still kicking ass. Which is a fucking insane... Imagine getting your head blown off and then being like, You couldn't kill Cleo. That is fucking stupid. It's the dumbest thing.

0:11:36 Thomas: Yeah.

0:11:38 Tom: Yeah.

0:11:46 Thomas: So dumb.

0:11:46 Eli: It is not real. It's by a person who's never been shot. It's by a person who's never had their skin pierced, right? Cause all you do is go like, Oh my God, that is definitely the most pressing thing in my life right now. But like, that's what it is. We all want to be the cowboy. And I count myself among this, right. Because I have dealt with serious health problems in my Life. According to Thomas, I'm still dealing with them, but I've dealt with the first time I got kidney stones. Right. And then the first, right,

0:11:53 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, I don't fuck that. Jesus Christ.

0:12:08 Tom: Yeah, according to every doctor that is listening to this, you still have them

0:12:14 Thomas: Yeah.

0:12:15 Eli: The First first time I got kidney stones and the first time I had heartburn that felt like a heart attack, right? The first time I had chest pain and like went and got myself checked out, right, very much had the thought of like, "I sure would love to die like a rootin' tootin' cowboy riding off into the breeze." And the reason I got serious about taking better care of my body, not that you could tell, but the reason I get serious about taking care of me body is I had a realization in those moments, like, "Oh, I'm not gonna die." I like, I'm not going to gently pull my hand away bloody. I'm going to be in a hospital filled with tubes and And

0:12:15 Tom: Yes, yeah. Right. Oh,

0:12:50 Thomas: Yeah, shitting yourself. You're going to be shitting all over.

0:12:53 Eli: And Anna's gonna be like all right, I'll be like I'm gonna be I'm pulling this thing out of the wall, right? Because here's the thing. I have been so clear with my loved ones not to keep me alive. I've been so clearly with my love ones that if I get diagnosed with any cancer except for like two, I am not even getting chemo. I am NOT fucking doing it. I a survivor. There is not going be a blanket. It, you're, I'm just gonna be like fuck off and then I'll be gone, right? I have been so clear, but they take those decisions away from you because you're so sick, right? Guy, imagine, it's gonna belike "No, I reckon I'll just have a set in this chair if you're all right," but you're already at the hospital, it's

0:13:03 Tom: My God. Yeah.

0:13:30 Eli: Not like the nurse is gonna be like, like, "Well, I hear he's the rootin' tootin' cowboy." No, they're gonna shove a catheter in your dick and fucking beat your heart for you for the next 50 years, like you gotta

0:13:40 Thomas: Well, no, you can opt out of it.

0:13:40 Eli: No,

0:13:42 Tom: I was gonna say, like, there's There's very simple documents that can be filled out, that We'll fix This.

0:13:43 Thomas: You actually can. Yeah.

0:13:46 Eli: If you have document filling hands, not if you're fucking you Walk

0:13:49 Tom: What are you... You do...

0:13:52 Thomas: Oh, you're pulling a me? It's because you can't push a button? Eli, just put... Here, we'll do it together. I'll get the vasectomy. I'll push the vasectomy button. Eli, you push the DNR whatever button.

0:13:56 Eli: Tom and Tom, hold my hands, here we are, we've just gone to every old age home in America and here we are looking at every man and woman in this building and we're asking their young selves if they'd rather be dead, what's that, the universal answer is "Yes, dear, God, yes.

0:14:19 Tom: It's not...

0:14:20 Eli: Please, God, devil."

0:14:22 Tom: No.

0:14:20 Thomas: No, it's actually the opposite. It's it's no, that's So I was going to bring up with my dad. That's the problem. He, okay. So quick story of my dad is I, again, I always thought it was due to the agoraphobia and the fucking weirdness that he couldn't be. He always put it in the way he said, I can't be a patient. I'm not going to be a patent. Uh, just not going gonna do that. That. And so he just ignored that he got diabetes. And I was a certain age to where I didn't, I quite notice a lot of other people noticed because when I was super little, my dad actually weighed, he um, wasn't like obese, but he was, he was bigger. He weighed, you probably like two 20 or something. And, and so he was like,

0:14:22 Eli: Yes. Wow.

0:14:55 Eli: What a massive piece of shit, fuck.

0:14:58 Tom: 220 is just fine. I don't know.

0:15:01 Eli: Two feet tall.

0:15:02 Tom: Wouldn't mind getting back down to 220.

0:15:00 Thomas: No, I bring it up is because very quickly he weighed a lot less, so that was the quick, rapid weight loss, that was probably, wasn't that he weighed a lot, it was that I was going to contrast it with, he weighed like 220, and then all of a sudden he weighed like 180, like he wasn't dieting, like so they always say, like, "Oh, rapid weight gain or weight loss." Now, I was like six when he was was bigger like that, so I didn't remember at all. Like, I only remembered, kind when I memory start forming, I'm like, "Yeah, he's always been that size."

And I see a few pictures, I'm like, "Oh, yeah, it was quite a bit bigger." Like, I didn't realize how much size he had relative to where he ended up. And so other people did notice and he just ignored it. Like, I think he knew that he had diabetes, I think, you could figure it out, his eyes stopped you working, some other stuff, that And, and because When you're the child of a narcissist like that, where everything revolves around him, that had the downside of everything that he does is normalized. So that made it even harder for anyone around him to say like, hey, shouldn't you do something?

0:15:08 Tom: Right, right, right.

0:15:17 Eli: Yeah. Right.

0:15:58 Thomas: Because it was just like, oh, that's the new normal thing now. That's what the emperor of the house has. He has that. So that's normal now, you know.

0:16:05 Tom: This. Well, your mom have to take care of him then? Did your mom like try to take him to doctor's appointments? Did she have to push to try to like take care OFM and get his health taken care of?

0:16:13 Thomas: Don't know about when he initially got it. My impression is that she knew something was going on, but tried she to get him to do stuff and he wouldn't. And honestly, I don't blame my mom whatsoever. She was doing everything, providing the income for the house and providing everything. I believe what happened. And this is my belief because think what she did was she tried a few times to be like, hey, you got to do this. You got to go to the doctor. And he fought her on it. And when when a narcissist, emotionally abusive person fights you on something, it's not pleasant. Like if my dad didn't want something to happen, it was not going to be pleasant for my mom. Like that was going to Be an awful, you time. And so I think she just tried a few times and then was like, all right, that's that.

0:16:52 Tom: See, That is an extreme angle. And I think that's a little different than kind of what you were, or maybe what Eli was describing of, like, people using, like, is someone else taking care of them as a way to sort of be like, I want someone else to be in charge of this. I want want someone else to like take care of me and do these things for me, because then I can still have these sort of like bullshit toxic markers of masculinity, right? Like, I can still demonstrate strength as long as I outsource my vulnerability to my spouse.

0:17:22 Tom: And that is like insane. I mentioned it to you guys, I think, off air, but I have, I got diagnosed last year with a sleep disorder called REM behavior disorder. And so what that that means is like there's a part of my brain that's not working right when I fall asleep and have a dream. Sometimes I don't have sleep paralysis, and so like I'll act out my dreams.

0:17:21 Eli: He

0:17:40 Tom: So Like if I have a, it's

0:17:40 Thomas: He's killed several people.

0:17:44 Eli: Sleep pumping is intense, everybody. Everybody

0:17:46 Thomas: Yeah, oh

0:17:46 Tom: It's A Lot. It's allowed. Well, delightfully, RBD also comes with like a preponderance of nightmares, so I almost only have Nightmares Which is cool.

0:17:46 Eli: Nice

0:17:52 Thomas: God. God, Tom now we know why he doesn't mind being electrocuted out of sleep.

0:17:54 Tom: Um,

0:17:56 Eli: Uh, to get shocked Out of those bad boys. Yeah.

0:17:57 Tom: Want Out of this, I want Out of It. But reason I bring it up is it has, um, it's like a prodromal symptom. It's 70 to 90% associated with Parkinson's. And I know I mentioned this to you guys when I got the diagnosis. So there's like a 70 to 90% chance that I get Parkinson's, which in my mind means there's a 10 to 30% chance I don't. And like I Think about That That I think

0:18:01 Thomas: Jesus Christ.

0:18:18 Thomas: Oh, that's how your mind works? That's awesome. My mind would be, well, 100% chance I already have it. Weird.

0:18:24 Tom: No, but this is important. Yeah. I keep thinking like if there ever comes a day, and this is toxically masculine, probably too. But I keep thinking like, if there ever comes a day where I have to ask Haley to help me, it's not going to be because I didn't do everything I could to be in that 10 to 30%. Right.

0:18:39 Thomas: Yeah, that is good. It is way better.

0:18:43 Tom: So like, well,

0:18:41 Eli: That's So much nicer than What I Thought The end of The sentence was gonna be, Tom. I was like, hey, first of all, Tom, you're taking my bits. Second of all, you're not allowed To say That on Air You

0:18:43 Thomas: Yeah.

0:18:49 Tom: It does depend on how much help I need, But like But I immediately I was like, all right, well, never drink again, like that's off the table forever. So I got the diagnosis, stopped drinking immediately that day, have never had a drink since, like, work out much more regularly than I even did before, like I do a lot more, more than run a bike.

0:18:51 Thomas: Yeah. Well,

0:19:03 Eli: Ride a bike, relax

0:19:07 Thomas: But did you know that 9 out of 10 little lads don't get Parkinson's? So,

0:19:10 Eli: That's true. How Many, how many little Victorian boys with a giant lollipop have you seen, The lollipop would fall out of their shaky, shaky Hand

0:19:10 Tom: But true. Yeah.

0:19:19 Thomas: Exactly That Wouldn't work. Yeah.

0:19:19 Eli: Right

0:19:20 Tom: But like, and it's because like, if you get Parkinson's, that's what's prescribed. Exercise is literally prescribed and your insurance will start paying for it.

0:19:28 Thomas: Paying You to exercise. Shit, I need That

0:19:31 Tom: Which I think is kind of interesting, but like I I immediately was like, all right, if I get sick and I need to be taken care of, to I'm it's only comfortable asking for that help. If I can say I did everything to avoid this, you

0:19:31 Thomas: Wow. Yeah.

0:19:42 Thomas: This is so good of you, like for real, this is, is another reason why Tom, I such a good example of taking the fucking toxic masculinity trends, because I see it the same way we're like, we've talked about this before, Tom, it's actually been a while, but you and I, I think have the same view, and I can't remember, Eli, if you, you agree, but we view masculinity as like competence, you know, if it's any, if it's anything.

0:19:58 Tom: Competence. Yeah. Right.

0:20:01 Thomas: And it doesn't mean that that means women aren't counted. It doesn't. People try to stretch it like that.

0:20:04 Tom: So it's nothing exclusive to

0:20:05 Thomas: No, not at all.

0:20:05 Tom: It. Yeah. Right. Right.

0:20:06 Thomas: It's just like instead we of being toxically masculine, I look at it as, oh, focus on just trying to be competent in a bunch of different areas, many of which might be fucking helping with housework appropriately, you know, like doing is that you should be doing as a partner. And I love that you instantly snapped into this. I'm we're talking about this because you said this a while ago. And I think about it a lot, health your situation. And you went instantly into the mode of, well, you're going to do everything you can to not be a burden and to avoid that. And it's so good of you to do that because it's not what a lot of men do. Do.

0:20:18 Tom: Right. Mm hmm.

0:20:39 Tom: And I think that's insane, because like to me, all to of the things that I think think about when I think about like my identity as a man and my identity as a fan is fairly traditional and fairly straightforward, and I know that I absolutely do ascribe to myself a lot of those like traditional values of traditional masculinity, the provider, that's that sort of thing, is that's all for whatever reason that's personally important to me, I don't put it out for other people, but it's personally important to make.

And so like as soon as I heard about this, I was like, okay, well. Well, like I know how I'll feel if I need help and it won't be like cash money to feel like I need health. Like I'm never going to be like, yep, raise my hand asking for help. The only way for me to square that circle emotionally and psychologically is to know like, all right, I need hope. And I did everything I could to not need this help.

And I do sort of feel like that's kind of I do sort of feel like that should be kind of our obligation before we hand a burden of our own to someone else. We

0:21:40 Thomas: Boy.

0:21:40 Tom: Should say I've carried as much of it as I can carry. Right. So whatever that is, I'm not trying to like make a judgment call for somebody else on the amount of burden that they can carry, but I, I feel like what we should never do where I feel Like we really enter some fucked up territory is when we say, I just don't want to do it. Please carry this for me. I'm, I don't feel like it. You do it, that's fucked up. If it's like, all right, I've carried everything I can carry, I literally have no more bandwidth to carry this burden, now I need help, fucking fine, that feels good, that feels loving, right? But less feels like a really fucked up and mean-spirited thing to do.

0:21:42 Thomas: Yeah, sure.

0:21:58 Eli: Right.

0:22:18 Thomas: I think that's just avoidance. Go ahead, Eli. Sorry.

0:22:18 Eli: And Know, I was, nailed it right on the head. I think that a lot, the mindset, and again, I can only speak to myself, right, and my own ignoring of my health, right, which is that I think there are two things. One, I think a lot of men, when they bodies no longer serve them and function for them the way they want them to, I think a lot of men think to themselves, um, know what, I'm entirely my mind now, I'm sort of ignoring my body entirely because I don't have my 18 year old body, which I was proud of, or not proud of, and maybe I had body issues, maybe I didn't, but because I'm not my ideal body anymore, it's, I'm a brain in a jar and whatever happens to the jar doesn't matter to me. But then I also think it becomes the problem of, I think they tell themselves they don't want to to be any trouble about their health, right.

0:22:45 Thomas: Interesting.

0:22:55 Thomas: Huh? Right. Yep.

0:23:06 Eli: That, that the excuse they make for themselves is, I don't want everyone to fuss over me, right? I think that's the, the emotion behind. I don't want to be a patient is, I don't want everyone to fuss over me, I don't want to be any trouble. But when the push comes to shove of losing your health again, because 99.99% of us are not lucky enough to drop dead right away, more of us just get old and And less And Less Able, right. Um, we are not that lucky. Eventually you lose that decision, and then when faced with the reality of dying, right, relying on other people, the pendulum swings the opposite direction, which is, I need you to do everything for Me well.

0:23:30 Tom: Breakdown. Yeah. And

0:23:31 Thomas: Yeah? Yep. Yep, 100%.

0:23:47 Tom: That, ask, like, to be somebody's caregiver is a lot of work. Like, it's, it's a lot of just actual physical Work, and it's a lot of like emotional work and a lot of intellectual work. It's a huge ask.

0:23:55 Thomas: Absolutely. And but the men have protected themselves from having to be guilty about it because there's no choice. So, to where everything is mandatory. Well, you have to take care of me or I'll die. Been Now, rendered unable to do this myself, so you have to do it. So it's like all these ways of getting stuff done for them and the sympathy without ever having to do -it -themselves or, yeah, without reckoning with the situation. I've been thinking about this, and I have 0% of this, and I don't know why. I have zero percent of this. Now, I do have ADHD, so I'm like, oh, shit, I got to get this thing checked out, and then I forget forever. But percent because I'm like, I'm too tired or any of those impulses. I have 0% of it and I can't think about why, except I a guest kind of listening to you guys. I think for me, it might be back to the toxic independence. Tom, it's weird and I are pretty similar on the toxic independence and I think we are here except

0:24:20 Tom: No responsibility.

0:24:52 Thomas: With a slight difference.

0:24:52 Tom: We're here too. Yeah.

0:24:53 Thomas: Well, with a slight different that for me I don't even think, it doesn' t enter her my mind that Lydia would take care of me. So, not in a bad way. Not like, oh, she wouldn't do it. Like, it's not an option. Like I don't think of like, for me, it's all the game for me is, well, I got to do the best I can to stay healthy as long as I can. End of story. And I'm just like, that's it. And I if I die, I don't know. Or that'S

0:25:11 Tom: Well, I had my back surgery, the thing that I was worried about most was asking Haley to take care of me, which she 100% was happy to do. Right. No part of her was, was was to take care of me while I convalesced from my back surgery, but like the thing that in the back of my mind was like, fuck, I don't want, I, because I, I do have that, like, asking for that help was really challenging for me. No.

0:25:37 Thomas: Interesting. My thought process, I want to make very clear when I'm sick, Lydia does take care of me. And my feeling is like, oh, that's fucking great. So for me, it's more like, it'S just not something in my mind. My mind doesn't think, oh I have a backup option of some kind. It'll be Lydia taking care of me and I know that's not literally what you're saying, but like my mind just doesn't go there. Like it is toxic because I think of myself as, oh. I'm just alone in this way. And I will just, I have to figure it out myself. I want to make very clear, Lydia would and does absolutely take care of me and it comes as kind of a surprise. It's like, this is amazing. This is so great, you know? Because I so think the difference is that it's just not, my brain just doesn't think about that. You know, it's

0:26:02 Tom: Yeah. Yeah.

0:26:17 Eli: For what comes up a lot of the time, and me and and Anna have had to deal with this when I have been sick, is define my self -worth by what I do for others. And Tom, I think you are very much in that boat as well. And so when I am not doing for others, I feel worthless, right? And so even when logically I know, hey, you need to rest this week, right, like when I had COVID or when I had my kidney stones or after, or I had my vasectomy, right, even though I logically knew, like, hey, you need to completely rest, I have no sense of self, or I don't have a good sense of self unless I'm serving others, unless I'm doing for others. And so, like, it's not even the nature of like feeling sad or bad. It's that I do not know who I am unless I're doing things for others, so my autopilot just starts me doing things for others.

0:26:27 Tom: Right.

0:27:08 Thomas: Interesting.

0:27:08 Tom: Yeah, I, I relate to that. Like, I, I have only, the only time in the seven years we've been together I've not been sick, thankfully, um, like, we were all sick, so we all got covet at the same time, so nobody was taking care of anybody, everybody was just sort of like in the same shit together.

And then I needed my back surgery, so I needed a few days to recover from that, thankfully, but that was real easy recovery for me, so like, two or three days I was like, yeah, I feel pretty good actually, so we went out to dinner like on day four, so it was like fine. So I haven't needed a lot of help. I do worry about, at point, streak this will run out, and I'm going to need help. And I know that I'm not going to like it. And to your point, Eli, it's going to challenge a lot, lot of like ways that I value myself and how I think about who I am and what my worth is. And I am absolutely aware that probably none of that is any good.

Like, all of that is probably like not the best headspace, like, or emotional space to just live in all the time, but also it serves me really well, so like, in all times that I'm not sick, it's actually a great space, right? Because like, it serves me, it serves the people that I love, everybody is happy, it's super functional, until it sort of like hits that stopping point, like, until it like runs into a brick wall, and then it's like, oh fuck.

So that's why I, like, with this, like, know, RBD and Parkinson's thing, I'm just like, all right, well, like, if I ever raise my hand, I'm like, yeah, I need, I need help walking across the hall or whatever, it's, it's gonna be, I'm gonna be like, look, I mean, they said exercise five days a week, I did six, you

0:27:45 Eli: Mm -hmm, right

0:27:45 Thomas: Yeah.

0:28:45 Tom: Know, they said, they said, stop you doing anything that could possibly hurt your brain, I stopped drinking I you

0:28:45 Eli: Right.

0:28:49 Thomas: The nurse is like, I don't care. That's fine. I just do this. It's my job.

0:28:52 Tom: But I, I just feel like asking for help is, asking for help's a big deal, you know, my dad is the same way. My dad had his hip replaced, and I went to his house, I drove him home after his hip replacement, he lives alone, and I had to convince him that, I was like, dad, you can't have no help help here.

0:28:53 Eli: He

0:29:11 Tom: Like, you can't have nobody here.

0:29:10 Thomas: What wasn't there some contraption that, what am I remembering, you told some story he got stuck in it, yeah

0:29:14 Eli: Got stuck in a chair.

0:29:15 Tom: My dad built, well, not after the hip surgery. That's just when the power went out. But like, because his mobility is bad. My dad's mobility, even with the hip problem, like his mobility's back, he's broken his back. So can't get in and out of a chair without help.

0:29:22 Thomas: Literally carrying everybody else Yeah.

0:29:29 Tom: Yeah. But for real, like, and he's just a guy, he lives alone. He doesn't like to ask for help. And after the hip injury, he had built all these like contraptions to help put his socks on and help reach for things. And he had them all over his house. And I was just like, dad, you, you got to have help. And thankfully his granddaughter, my niece, came the house and spent the first week with him. And He was, he was very grateful to have her there, but he was, his initial plan was, yeah, I'll just figure it out. Just like, I'm just, you know, to live on my own in in a home by myself where if I fall nobody notices, that was his actual plan, so Right.

0:29:55 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:30:02 Eli: And I think that comes from the fact that when you're young, and I can very much relate to that, bad things happen and you're on your own. And right, you do figure it out. You do survive it. Otherwise, you wouldn't be around. Right? And so you get a mindset of, I'll figure it it out, right, I'll figure, I'll make a, to some hot Thomas Midgley fucking rig to put my socks on, right, I've, I've managed to jump the fucking General Lee over all my problems so far, so I'm sure this will be fine. And then when you hit that wall of not being able to do it anymore, you don't have the tools to ask for help, and like, again, I just, I can only speak to my own experience, I do do not have those tools. I do not have them, and I also like weirdly kind of refuse to have them, because when I, when picture the life of someone who requires assistance, it is not the life I want to have.

0:30:24 Thomas: That'd be me Mm.

0:30:56 Tom: But you know, like, almost universally, Eli, not to interrupt you, but I did, I guess, but like almost universally, when people are surveyed about that issue, when they're in that position transition, it's all different. Everybody feels that way. Like almost everybody feels that way when they don't need the help. And they imagine a version of themselves that when they do need the health, we'll just say like, all right, I'm calling it a night.

0:30:59 Eli: Get in Yes.

0:31:07 Thomas: Mm-hmm, it's all different, I

0:31:21 Tom: And then almost universally the polling and the surveys and the data shows that nobody really feels that way in the moment, which means that we are woefully unprepared to emotionally and psychologically manage that transition because we've lived our whole lives saying, well, when it comes down to that, I'm just moving to Oregon and calling it a night.

0:31:20 Thomas: It's almost never true

0:31:39 Eli: Yeah.

0:31:39 Thomas: Yep. Yep. And

0:31:39 Tom: Right.

0:31:39 Eli: You lose your sense of self, absolutely. I totally agree, and

0:31:41 Tom: Yeah.

0:31:43 Thomas: Was gonna get, tell to that point about my dad, I, he had that, um, you, not gonna be a patient, not gonna, agoraphobia, he also, I mean, he's, he was a depressed guy, he didn't love life, like, so I figured, yeah, okay, he's just gonna, you call it quits when he calls it quits. He, he basically, when he had the stroke, broke in 2007. Uh, that was really, really tough. It was when I still, you thought of my dad a certain way.

That was a hard, hard. Um, and that changed a lot of things. Cause it was the first time seeing my dad as anything other than the, like, you, dictator in charge of everything. Who's, who's, you know, not like physically strong, but just like a strong personality and everything. And then it, it did change. And like, honestly, that's probably what he was afraid of. Like, it did switch to, oh, this is someone who actually needs my help in some ways, you know, and I bet you that was what he was afraid of all along.

Um, to the point where he got through that stroke okay, but then of course my mom obviously had to like do everything, take him to all the appointments, do all the stuff, like, you, all of a sudden she's a caretaker in that role that she didn't have as much time for, now we were out of the house, so, um, was a little easier, um, but she also just didn't, I, you don't think she wanted that to be her life, and I don't fucking blame her, you know, like

0:32:15 Eli: Hmm. Right.

0:32:46 Thomas: She never got to rest ever, uh, she can't rest, she's too hyperactive all the time, she's like Tom in a lot of ways, but, uh, but she, you know, that's not what she wanted. And then when my dad got some sort of cancer that I don't remember which, um, was a new level of, when he said, like, all right, don't, like, I'll try some of the treatment, that's like not horrible kind of thing, we'll do, you, you know, she had to convince him, like, try a few things. And then, you know, and then after that, I'll just, blah, blah. And wouldn't you know it, when he got to the point where he was like, all right, you might be dying, dude, it was like, okay, try everything, money is no object, I'll try to do it, you know, like, it instantly switched. It's really picked the worst of all worlds. He didn't fucking take care of himself on the theory that he was just going to die. And that'd be great. It would be a quick great exit for him, he'll just have that stroke and, you know, it'll be over.

Then he didn't die, he had to keep going, he had to be you dependent for some time, uh, people, and then he got even more dependent, and then got even more dependent to the point where, he you a lot of uh the money that he had saved or they had saved to you take care of himself, and then ultimately died of the thing that was probably super avoidable. You know, like, it's it's so fucking pathetic.

And And I look at that, Tom, and I look at that and I see, and this is where I think you and I are kind of on the same page, I think it's so fucking pathetic. There's nothing less masculine, if you want to be something called masculine, than being fucking pathetic. Than dying

0:32:45 Tom: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:34:08 Eli: Right.

0:34:08 Thomas: In that pathetic ass fucking way. There's men I know who are like this, and I would strongly encourage you, if this is you, to not be this way. It's not tough. It is not cool or strong, you just look like a piece of shit and then you look dead. And then people are sad that you're dead. Those are the two things that, you know, that happen. It's not tough. It's not masculine. Not just it's get, care of yourself to a reasonable fucking degree and do it. Just fucking do it! Not manly to not do that.

0:34:34 Tom: It's not. And and I want to point out another, another problem was kind of an aside problem, but like, you a lot of what we think about as self-care has become or is coded as feminine and you know, so like working out, for example, like, I know you like tease me because I'm cycling at this point, but like, like that's lighting

0:34:46 Eli: Riding

0:34:46 Thomas: Mm-hmm -hmm.

0:34:53 Eli: Your little lead bike, if you don't mind. Again. It's

0:34:54 Tom: Riding my little lad bike, but that's actually, it's actually it's

0:34:56 Thomas: That's little lad coded. It 's

0:34:58 Eli: Actually Child -coded. Yeah.

0:34:58 Tom: Little lad coated. It is.

0:34:59 Eli: It's not. I Would Never I Would ever insult women, beautiful, amazing, full, full-grown women. Sure.

0:35:00 Tom: I know it's child coded, but, but When I go to like a yoga class, it is almost all women. It's if I go lift weights or I go do something that's like much harder to keep doing as you get older, that's coded as masculine, right? But a lot of the self-care you meditation know, that's coded generally as feminine. Yoga, that's coded generally as feminine. Massages, coded generally as feminine. Taking a bath, coded generally is feminine. A lot self-care stuff, you know things, things are generally coded in a way that for many men makes them uncomfortable engaging in those things, right? It makes many men uncomfortable taking care of themselves because they don't want to be seen or perceived as doing something less than masculine. And I do think that to some degree, even engaging like the mental health care system is very much coded in

0:35:11 Eli: Thank

0:35:35 Thomas: Not Oh

0:35:35 Eli: You, Thomas Thomas gets it. Well

0:36:02 Thomas: Yeah.

0:36:02 Tom: Away that for many traditional men is shameful or embarrassing because it's not coded as, as keeping with that sort of masculine self-reliance, right? That like, I don't need help. I can't ask for help. I won't project strength if I do like all of that shit, all kind of combines to create like unhealthy dudes who then foist all that work on women.

0:36:03 Thomas: Yep. Mm.

0:36:27 Tom: Like just like hand all that work. Like, you got to carry my pills. I don't keep track of this stuff. I, you My body's falling apart and I'm not going to deal with it. And eventually, like if you keep doing that shit and your body falls apart early or your mind falls apart early and you didn't take good care of yourself, like asked somebody else to do so much more work. To your point, Thomas, you've asked somebody else just do so much more work for you.

0:36:49 Thomas: Mm-hmm. Or you haven't even asked, you've just kind of Yeah.

0:36:50 Tom: You've demanded it. You required

0:36:51 Thomas: You've made it, you, you, you've like made it a necessity, otherwise you'll die, so you put them in a hostage situation and it makes you feel like you never had to ask for help, never had asked.

0:37:00 Tom: It. Yeah, You're leveraging the fact that they love you for them to take care of you like, it and like, what, what a woefully unfair ask that is to be like, "Yeah, I, I don't want to take care of myself, I'm unwilling to do this work."

0:37:01 Thomas: Mm. Mm-hmm, what

0:37:14 Tom: For real, yeah, for real, that's fucking true.

0:37:14 Thomas: An unmanly thing too, fucking pathetic. Yeah.

0:37:18 Eli: Best, they loved you. In reality, they are societally expected to take care of you, right? They, because

0:37:24 Tom: Pass

0:37:25 Eli: Because women don't have the the John Edwards thing. I mean, I'm sure some of them do, but like historically we don't have a precedent of women being like, Ooh, you're sick, huh? I think it's probably time that I hit the dusty trail.

0:37:30 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:37:37 Tom: Right.

0:37:38 Thomas: Crazy.

0:37:38 Eli: Right. Whereas men do that to their wives all the time. Right? You've talked before about how, like when, women get cancer, one of the things that they warn them about is like, yeah, your husband might leave. There's like a really good chance that your husband will be like, this is hard. I quit. But I want to speak to the thing you said about especially mental health, because I think that's a big one as well, um, less so for our generation, but like I think about The Great Santini sometime, I know we talked about books a couple weeks ago, but like did you ever read that book, so that book is about a, it's

0:37:40 Tom: Right.

0:37:47 Thomas: No.

0:38:05 Tom: I have not. No, know

0:38:03 Thomas: No. Tom you haven't read that book, fucking read a book, Tom, idiot. Eli tell him the thing we both know.

0:38:11 Eli: About a mentally

0:38:09 Tom: Hey you know hold on, hold on, yeah, it's, you know, it's actually, it's all about the editing, uh it's a good book, I think we could get a pollister this year if we're uh

0:38:13 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah as

0:38:17 Eli: Yeah it's oh it's all about the coaching, yeah, as long as everyone stays healthy, the reading glasses stay on

0:38:20 Tom: Yeah if we oh man

0:38:23 Thomas: Long as all the pages, just stay healthy. It's yeah, shit.

0:38:25 Eli: Yeah Exactly. But

0:38:26 Tom: How about those dog-eared pages, huh? Well,

0:38:27 Eli: But it's just very clearly about an unwell person, right? He's an abuser, maybe he has PTSD, it's hard to take they didn't know what it was back then but he sucks this dude sucks, and at the end he crashes the plate to the ground and dies, and everyone's like good for him, like it fucking, but like that was the book, I, is gonna sound so crazy to the younger listeners who will like have seen that movie or read that book and been like, I think you're wrong, but like I cannot describe to the longer listeners how much The Great Santini was a model of good, positive masculinity, like we grew up with people being like, he's kind of like the dad from Great Santini, and not using it as a way to describe to the police where they should go to arrest him. Yeah.

0:38:37 Thomas: Should I read it is it, my dad no I don't Yeah. Cool Wow. Yeah yeah

0:39:19 Tom: Than you guys. I'm 46. I'm Gen X. And I will say that it wasn't until my mid -30s that I would have ever considered going to a therapist myself. Like, there is no way, until I really, like, until culture had shifted enough that I felt, felt like, as a, as a guy who grew up in the Midwest with very traditional you of values, there was no way, in my 20s, like, I wouldn't, I would have no problem with therapy, right, if anyone else wanted to go, I'd be like, yeah you should absolutely go to therapy that makes that makes all the sense in the world like and

0:39:48 Thomas: Yep. That's how my that's what my dad would say too that's What My Dad said. Tom, so glad you grew out of that.

0:39:54 Tom: I feel the same thing. Like, if Hayley were on this show right now, she would say, like, I constantly am trying to help her, especially as she's been sick with her self. So I'm like, hey, like, you, we should, should do like this nice thing. We should get you a massage. We should do this. I'm constantly trying to think of ways to help her with her self-care. And I wouldn't do that shit. Not really. I would, but...

0:40:14 Eli: And And your body and you're like, my body keeps sleeping time to get the razor watch as long as it's not sleeping there

0:40:20 Tom: I have to remind myself to do stuff does take care of me also.

0:40:27 Tom: But I will say I won't do it if I think anybody else needs something at the same time. I will not... It's just true. I still can't do it. I can't prioritize it.

0:40:33 Eli: It is, that's my boy

0:40:33 Thomas: I I don't want to accidentally have people think that I'm, um, selfless as you guys, because I'm absolutely not, I hope no one gets that impression, I want a stolen valor to be in the conversation and have anyone think that that's me, I'm equal opportunity not self-caring. I don't self-care, care for me, I don't self-care for other people as much as I should. I've got, no, it's just not on my mind. Uh,

0:40:56 Eli: Is a nice three bears where we all suck, this is we just are all sucking

0:41:01 Thomas: I think I suck the most though. I think we can all just agree. I suck the most. It's a suck competition and I'm winning.

0:41:03 Eli: Up this week it's the only time you'll ever say that to me, Tom, is fucking enjoying it, no.

0:41:14 Tom: The that I do prioritize that I will try to prioritize, like I said before, is I do try to make sure that I work out. Have a craziness about it ever since I got that RBD diagnosis now. I know, I know. But do carve that time out. But one of my favorite things to do is actually do a sensory deprivation float. Have you guys ever done one of these?

0:41:23 Thomas: No, I

0:41:33 Eli: I have, yes.

0:41:34 Thomas: Got a gift certificate for one, but I think, think it was like before COVID, and then COVID happened, I forgot about it. Oh interesting.

0:41:37 Tom: I fucking love these things. You've done one, Eli? Did you like it?

0:41:42 Eli: Yes. No, yeah.

0:41:42 Thomas: Yeah did you like lose his mind, I think

0:41:47 Tom: Look, this, that is, yes, there is a very binary experience. People either really love it or they fucking hate it. I've never met, I don't know anyone who's like, that was fine.

0:41:57 Thomas: That would be me, I bet you that, I should do it, I should do it, it'll be me, I'll be the three bears.

0:41:59 Eli: Tom Tom Let me give, let you this, hey, would you like to be locked in a room with the person who hates you most in the world and you can only hear their voice? No, That's why I don't want to be in a fucking sensory deprivation shit. It was so funny. The girl, she could tell she could fuck it. You know how, when they have those like extreme haunted houses and the guys are like, you're not going to cut it. That's what she was like with my Supreme. Am I in it? She was like, okay, so here's the, here's a thing. You got to not burst through these walls. Like the fucking Clayton Kool-Aid man. You got it up burst through these walls. Like the Kool-Aid man, when you start to freak out, you push this button, all the lights come come on. And I was like, um, I actually meditate quite a bit. And she was like oh yeah,

0:42:08 Tom: I Love.

0:42:08 Thomas: Here's

0:42:19 Tom: It

0:42:33 Thomas: The emergency Switch Yeah, Okay,

0:42:47 Eli: I know you're gonna be great. It's exactly the same. Floating in the eternal blackness of space is just like this. You're gonna fucking love it. Anyways, the button's right here. Do you want to practice a couple of times?

0:42:47 Thomas: Sure.

0:43:00 Thomas: Yeah. Try

0:43:02 Tom: Love. I have a subscription to it, to go once a month, and I actually just was, I was like, I wonder how many credits I have. I have an embarrassing amount of credits they do not let the shock watch go in. No,

0:43:03 Thomas: It. Do they let the ball shock watch go in with you? Do you have a waterproof version?

0:43:12 Eli: Yeah, what if you fall asleep?

0:43:13 Thomas: Maybe that's why you love it so much.

0:43:14 Eli: Do you drown?

0:43:14 Thomas: It's the only place Eli

0:43:16 Tom: You can't drown in it, no, you can't, you literally can't, drowning it, no.

0:43:19 Thomas: Could.

0:43:19 Tom: It's It's not possible to drown, it's I always

0:43:19 Eli: I could drown, I'm drowning right now. I have my water glass here, never Never tell me the odds, all right, gentlemen, before we go, I actually, uh, been meaning to tell you guys, I have a disease where I can't stop telling airport jokes, and I just hope it's terminal, I

0:43:27 Tom: Fall asleep in it, yeah.

0:43:35 Thomas: God I

0:43:55 Tom: Oh god, that

0:44:01 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

0:44:41 Eli: If you have document filling hands, not ride a bike, relax.

0:44:44 Tom: Work out much more regularly than I even did before, like

0:44:48 Thomas: Don't know how to do the day oh I I broke all the dishes. Guess you, but it's