DOD128: The Age of Nonconsensual Deepfakes

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Tom: To Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's hallucinating its way through life and loving it. I am Tom Curry. I've joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:39 Thomas: Hello. I don't know. I got, I'm trying to think of,

0:00:40 Eli: If this

0:00:41 Eli: One's about how much mushrooms I eat, I am eating just the right amount of mushrooms to stay balanced, guys. I do not want the feedback on how many mushrooms I ate. Me and a friend, so for those of you non -druggos out there, welcome to our parenting podcast. There's this thing called the Terrence McNally dose, right? Maybe it's the Terence McKenna.

0:01:04 Eli: Yeah, either Terrence McKenny or Terrence McKenna, doesn't matter. It's one of those authors who wrote a lot about drugs. And he was like, "You got to do 30 grams of mushrooms." Now, to give you some relative sense, the little mini chocolate piece that my wife eats when she wants to sort of have a nice day is one quarter of one gram of mushrooms, yeah.

0:00:59 Tom: The Terrence McNally dose? Uh,

0:01:23 Thomas: Holy shit.

0:01:24 Tom: Excuse me, but it's 120 times that amount?

0:01:28 Eli: And that's where he got to meet the electric elves, and it's fucking cool. But the sheer amount of mushroom you have to put into your, like, it's a lot of thing.

0:01:32 Thomas: Oh, yo, just physical matter.

0:01:39 Eli: Right. You If You walked into Five Guys and you were like, I would like 30 grams, they'd Be like, that's too much food, just eat until you're not full anymore. So, but me and a friend are gonna go get a cabin and do Terence McNally doses this year, very Excited for it, but Anna is the worst negotiator in the world because she's like, don't do that, just do some drugs, and I'm like, I, I don't want to do, when someone is seeking the drug experience, and again, non-druggy people in our audience, I must be like, I have to eat the whole buffet. But you have to understand that if you love drugs, there are two drug experiences you seek, right? There is the have a good time drug experience that you had, right, you were in college, someone passed you a joint, you took a hit off it, you giggled a little bit, you're like, got it, that's what drugs are. And then there's

0:01:40 Thomas: Yeah. I

0:01:40 Tom: Cool. This just sounds gross. Aren't they disgusting?

0:01:54 Thomas: Want to come.

0:02:28 Thomas: Then there's Thomas with red wine that needs to be finished on a table full of Mushrooms. 'Rooms.

0:02:30 Eli: The that's right, exactly yes, it's the red wine of mushrooms which is you are there to fundamentally change your consciousness, you are resetting you when the people like open up old PCs on TikTok and blow them out with it, that's what you're doing to your brains and so Anna never understands, but if you'd like to reset your brain and rid it of all the auto ads in our podcast, why you can do it over At patreon.com/dearolddads, where for as little as a dollar a show, you can get extended commercial free versions of every single episode. We got a little parenting story at the end of every show. Uh, you can tune in for sometimes Tom shows up for those, uh,

0:02:47 Thomas: It's A good Analogy. Yeah.

0:02:55 Tom: Okay, once

0:03:13 Eli: But Not just That you also get monthly bonus episodes we just recorded our AMA. We talked about uh sex and Transactional Blowjobs.

0:03:13 Tom: I didn't.

0:03:18 Thomas: Yeah, And

0:03:23 Tom: Well, some of us did. It was mostly just you. Yeah. And printers in

0:03:24 Thomas: Printers. There's A printer Talk we've

0:03:25 Eli: And I won't give this away. I won't give this away. I give you the best recommendation for a printer you've ever had in your life, podcast listener. I change your life with a podcast printer recommendation. So, uh, if you want All that

0:03:40 Thomas: Cornered The market on anal and Printers in one Podcast.

0:03:42 Eli: Anal And printers

0:03:43 Tom: The parenting podcast space.

0:03:44 Eli: Guys.

0:03:45 Thomas: Yeah. Damn.

0:03:46 Tom: Yeah, for sure.

0:03:47 Eli: I just googled it and there's like eight billion results. I don't think we cornered the Market, um, uh Uh, something, something felching out of toner. I don't have it, but you just, everybody at home, this is a make your own joke. You can go home, take that away and come back. Uh, we'll announce the winner on next week's show. All right. Patreon.com/dearolddads.

0:03:49 Thomas: It We can't. Nothing new under the sun on Yikes.

0:04:11 Tom: All So for our topic today, um, we want to continue on air a conversation we've been having sort of offline. I've sent the guys a couple of messages, a couple of news stories over the last couple of weeks, um, the rise of deep fake nudes and deep fake videos, um, The way that those are being used right now, now, often by teenage boys to make nude photos of girls in their class. And it's, it's, it's One of these things, yeah, fucking yikes on bikes for sure. It's something that you read those stories, or at least I do, and you realize I should not have had kids. No, I am scared that this is part of a world now that we're building for our kids to grow up into to. It is something that we're going to have to think about as parents.

0:04:27 Eli: Mm-hmm.

0:04:38 Thomas: Well, I'm Not Those Fucking AI assholes that

0:05:01 Tom: It is the AI assholes. Thomas, I think we're closer.

0:05:01 Thomas: Are doing It

0:05:03 Eli: But those AI assholes have all the money and all the power. So, uh,

0:05:06 Thomas: Yep. Yeah.

0:05:08 Tom: Right. It's getting built, whether we like it or not. It''s getting built.

0:05:11 Eli: It's Getting Built. Yeah.

0:05:11 Thomas: Geez.

0:05:12 Tom: It ''s getting built.

0:05:12 Eli: Thought This was a valuable topic to talk about on our show for so many reasons, but because, like, I think a lot of the conversation about AI right now is about, like, stopping it, trying to stop it, um, and that in my opinion is a very silly conversation because I don't think we have the time, the resources or the know-how in politics to do it. Right.

The fact that most of our politicians are older than grandpa and can barely tell you what channel the VCR needs to be set to if you want to watch it at the same time as the TV. Right. If you're talking about young politicians who are sort of aware of problematic aspects of that. And that's why this story is good. Right. The problematic aspects in that everything is currently being sold as AI also makes that really hard to enforce. Right?

Because when most people are talking about AI these days, they are either talking about stable diffusion image generators, which are one technology, or large language models, which are another technology. And neither of them are artificial intelligence. They're just labeled that in popular culture. And there's good reason that they're labeled that for, it means that when something happens and it is done with AI, it is very hard for us to encode that into law.

Right, so there's that, that first conversation I think is worth having, but the second conversation is like whether or not we're ready for it, whether or not we can stop this thing. It's happening, right. It's happening to our kids now, right? Aislinn is 14, 15, right?

0:06:44 Tom: She's 14. She's turning 14. She's 13 now.

0:06:47 Eli: Aislinn Is two years younger than the victims in the story On the Times that we read, right? So, this, this Is relevant or a one-time thing, this is highly, highly relevant to how Aislinn moves through the world. And by the time Phoebe is a teenager and has teenage classmates, this technology will not just be ubiquitous, it will be exponentially more advanced than it is now.

0:06:52 Tom: Yeah.

0:06:54 Thomas: Oh, My

0:07:14 Tom: Yeah? Pause real quick and point something out? I just want to point out, because I think it bears saying.

0:07:14 Eli: Yeah. Please, please, no, get in there.

0:07:19 Tom: What I think is important about what you just said is your gendered focus, focus on the victim situation. Right. Like you zeroed in, not on Eamon, not an Arlo, not a Remy. And there's a reason for that. And that is because we understand that almost exclusively, not exclusively, but almost exclusively the people who will bear the burden and the brunt of the harassment that this will cause will be girls and women. And I just think it's worth pointing that out because it's a, it's fucking really true thing. Like this directionality of this will be dudes doing this to women.

0:07:57 Eli: Yes.

0:07:57 Tom: That is how this is going to work.

0:07:59 Eli: And to pretend otherwise enables the misogynists that still very much have a foothold on tech, right? If you're not aware of sort of the tech world and these problems, I mean, Thomas, we talked about James Damore, that guy, way like, yeah, exactly. So like that, if Haven't heard those SIO episodes, but really important right because, like, when I, I think about old SIO episodes as I smoke my pipe on the porch, um, oftentimes think about the fact that, like, so many people are so unaware of how recently absolutely unacceptable bad ideas were not just debated but like, and we were the crazy ones being like, I think maybe you shouldn't write your whole company an email about the female brain being smaller when compared to an orange. Right? Like, and so something really important to understand when we talk about, like, tech companies that are enabling this stuff is that they are vastly male dominated, and trying to get the men in those industries to understand the

0:08:08 Tom: Yeah.

0:08:13 Thomas: God, you interviewed him On the Show, fucking Idiot. God.

0:09:01 Thomas: Yeah.

0:09:01 Eli: Potential Harm is significantly harder in those spaces where men think everyone is going to have a fuck robot in the next five years and all currency will be replaced with bitcoin.

0:09:01 Thomas: We're

0:09:13 Tom: Yep. Yeah, thing is, like, with this AI fucking deep fake nude bullshit that's coming out and going to become, to your point, easier and better, I mean, better, but like, easier and, like, more realistic.

0:09:13 Eli: Right.

0:09:26 Thomas: Convincing.

0:09:26 Tom: And More convincing. Right. I don't call anything better about this, but people who will be making arguments in defense of this will be men making bullshit, bullshit secondary arguments about trying to pretend that there are larger ideological issues about art and artistry and copyright and whatever they can use to distract from the fact that this technology will be being used specifically by dudes to victimize women. And they will do everything they can to make the conversation about something else.

0:09:26 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Sure.

0:09:58 Eli: Yeah. Right. I often compare it to, like, when someone points out that a gun used in a mass shooting isn't technically an assault rifle. Right. Person may be correct, and there may be an interesting conversation to be had about what an assault rifle is versus a gun that you can shoot rapidly many times. But if I am talking about a mass shooting and someone brings up that conversation, it is because they're trying not to have the conversation about gun violence.

0:10:10 Tom: Right. Exactly.

0:10:31 Thomas: Right.

0:10:33 Eli: Similarly, as we get into this world of deep fakes and nudes and AI pornography, which is largely already here, Right? Like, that is the other thing is that so many people are so unaware, aware of what is currently on the market when it comes to, like, AI products. Right? Dangers are real and now, and the philosophy has to catch up to the enforcement, not the other way around. Right? Don't need a perfect answer to the philosophical questions about AI porn before we take action to to protect the people it's harming. Kill

0:10:40 Thomas: Sorry,

0:11:07 Tom: Yeah. So I want to go out and just just throw out my my cents on the whole thing. And I yeah,

0:11:11 Eli: Them! Kill them all! Break your computer with a hammer! Now! Smash it!

0:11:14 Tom: I So I position on this is that this is actually not as complicated as a lot of the noise around this would suggest that this This is actually fairly straightforward, that we should simply have laws that make the creation and distribution of non-consensual sexual materials illegal, feloniously illegal. Illegal. Well,

0:11:42 Eli: So give context to what Thomas is is saying, those just of you who are unfamiliar with the story, so this happened in a high school some classmates used, and again, they're not like trying to create a recipe for how to prank your friends at home, but it used what probably is either a TikTok or a Snapchat filter, like a face swap filter, to put female classmates' faces onto pornographic videos, and then they circulated those videos around to say, hey, I found porn of so-and-so online.

0:12:07 Thomas: Oh. Oh, so it wasn't AI generated.

0:12:15 Tom: Well, the the second article that from the Times that was just from, I think, yesterday or this morning Says that they were using a notification app that can take a photo of anybody and then strip them out, like make them Look naked, right?

0:12:19 Eli: Yeah, right, Exactly. And I couldn't find anything on that, but again, I'm not, surprisingly to many of our listeners, I am not in the notification app market. It um,

0:12:40 Thomas: Yeah.

0:12:40 Tom: And and there there are also, and just to just to throw more context, like the the Taylor Swift scandal, remember? Remember when all those photos emerged of Taylor Swift that were not photos right? So that's the problem, too, is the vernacular around this encourages us to say things colloquially like the photos of Taylor Swifts when they're, in fact, not photos.

0:12:47 Eli: Right.

0:13:00 Tom: The Images of Taylor Swift, where they were pornographic images that were AI-generated, community of people that creates this stuff, and this stuff back and forth and figures out how to get past the filters that are built into by asking the questions in different ways, or asking the

0:12:45 Thomas: Right. Right now.

0:13:00 Eli: Yeah,

0:13:20 Thomas: Yeah,

0:13:20 Tom: Question so many times in different ways that eventually it produces this pornography. Or this, this, these pornographic and non-consensual images, yeah.

0:13:26 Eli: So So we'll get into the, like, the in a second because I do think it's, it's worth talking about, but the conflict and what Tom was just addressing in this idea of like using revenge porn laws about it, uh, one of the things that came up in the article, um, that is sort of in the conversation right now that I think Tom was speaking to when I I sort of interrupted with the context is there rules about revenge porn, very specific rules about revenge, porn in a lot of States. And again, everyone's a minor, so it's hard. The lawyers representing the young men in this case are arguing that it is not revenge porn because it's not real. It's not actual naked photos of the classmates. And so the, the the conversation that is happening, uh, that I want to let Tom speak to now is like, how did we come to terms with that? How do we, how, how we come with rules and policies that protect our children that acknowledge that even when something isn't real, it can do real harm. I think that's a fair, is that a fair way of putting

0:14:28 Eli: It? Okay.

0:14:27 Thomas: I think

0:14:27 Tom: I think that's that's fair

0:14:28 Eli: Yeah right

0:14:28 Thomas: We all three agreed that like in this context, like obviously something's wrong here and we need to figure out how to properly police it. Like in the context of students are doing this to fellow students who are minors and obviously there's something wrong there. And it's a question of like what what legally specifically is that right?

0:14:29 Tom: Yeah

0:14:47 Eli: Exactly yeah Thomas

0:14:47 Tom: And I, I think like I'm the crazy person

0:14:49 Eli: Just making me clarify, and Eli, just real quick, could you say into the microphone, you think child porn is bad even if a computer makes it, you just say that real quick, you're

0:14:54 Thomas: Yeah. I

0:14:55 Tom: Person want to, I want to be the crazy person and say I think it's most important that we protect minors, but I also think it is equally important that we protect people that are not minors. I don't think that this problem is suddenly unimportant or not feloniously awful as soon as somebody reaches the age of 18 and non-consensual sexual material is created and distributed about them. Like, don't think that there's any functional moral difference. I get that like it's worse with kids, but it should be like, this should be something which we all agree as a society I think has no value to create and only causes harm, and we should stamp it out. And there are ways I think that that we are not going to do, but there are ways I think that we could have AI and not have this awful bullshit. And worry that one of the things that's going to happen is it's going to be like, well, we just got to find a way to parent our way through this new world of technology. And we don't want to put any onus at all.

0:16:01 Thomas: Don't know. In our country, I feel like it's the opposite way. It's going to be like everyone is a child sex predator for installing the app or something.

0:16:03 Tom: Yeah. I don't think we'll go that No, I don't think we'll go that way. I think, sure,

0:16:11 Eli: Reading Tom's notes. Thomas, well,

0:16:14 Thomas: Tom, we Have the problem where if two minors consensually send nudes, like two 17-year-olds send nudes, there are cases where they predators, like registered sex offenders because of that. Like, do we that in this country, and I, it will be uneven, obviously, but like that extreme will also be present, I think, I

0:16:32 Tom: Yeah, I don't think that, you know, if I were going to, like, get out my crystal ball, I would suggest that we are going to do almost nothing meaningful to stop this problem, that we'll only address it for minors if we address it at all, that the addressing of it will be patchwork instead of broad, and it'll be mostly a bunch of misdemeanor bullshit, and it effectively won't matter, and then we're going to put that it On in the lapse of parents. I, I feel that way because, like, revenge porn still isn't illegal in all 50 states. It's a misdemeanor in many states, and in some states it's only revenge porn if I share images of, like, somebody I'm in a relationship with or in a family with. But if I share, like, pictures non -consensually of Lydia, that in Arkansas, for example, isn't revenge porn. It's not even a misdomainer. So, like, we already can't get on board with reasonable laws, but

0:16:53 Thomas: Don't know about that that's what I mean, but there are also people who have done solid time, are doing solid time for this. I think there's going to be a spectrum of responses no I, I am agreeing with you. Think I, there is going to the over punitive, um, places, uh, there's gonna be the opposite, for sure. I think there's gonna be a range of responses.

0:17:29 Tom: I'm saying it's, it's inconsistent and patchy. Yeah. So my suggestion is like, I don't understand. And I feel the same way about like the gun issue. Right. The way that we solve the gun is you ultimately and again, we won't do it is we should be going after manufacturers. We should not be going going after individuals, right? Keep going after individuals. We never solve this problem. If we go after manufacturers, we might actually get something accomplished. We could hold these tech companies liable.

0:17:46 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:18:02 Eli: Yeah.

0:18:02 Tom: Could, we could hold them liable to what is produced. And then it would force them to say, all right, in order for this to exist in the world, we are going to have to put really, really robust controls in front of it. And if that That means we get less AI as a result. Isn't that okay?

0:18:19 Eli: So, I got a little good news towards the end of the episode on that front, and it's sort of my meta conclusion, um, but I, I don't, I don't want to get to that yet. What I want to speak to is something you just brought up, Tom, that I think is really important, and Thomas, you spoke to it as well, is the idea that the responsibility is getting put on parents, right?

Think it's really important for us to acknowledge that, like, most of us, and I include myself in this, as someone who's like pretty fucking handy with computers, um, not know how to respond to this kind of harassment when it happens to our kids, right? We do not have the tools, uh, respond to this kind of thing, and therefore, and it is important that our representatives and our institutions behave in a way that is responsible and not pass the responsibility along to us, right?

And, and the metaphor I would use for this is like the way the approach to sexual harassment changed from our generation to this, this generation, like sexually harassed each other. I don't know about you guys, but like when I was in high school, people sexually harass each other all

0:19:22 Thomas: Absolutely.

0:19:22 Eli: The time, sometimes in really, really malicious and gross ways, right? It was something I grew up around. It was something I normalized in my head for a really, really, really long time, right. And it is seeing this next generation and how seriously that behavior is taken these days, that I recognize the change did not come from our dads fighting each other or whatever it is they expected, right? Because I don't even know what our high schools expected us to do, right.

0:19:23 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah yeah

0:19:23 Tom: Right.

0:19:54 Eli: Luckily never in that position. My sister was never in that position, but I've heard horror stories and I know that people were very much left on their own. It is only when there was institutional change, right, that really mattered, when there were actual real -world consequences for that behavior, which, I have to point out, is very, very easy to do, right? Take down stable diffusion. Nobody can, nobody will, right, but you can be like, hey guys, here's a quick one -day class on if you do anything along these lines, you are expelled from school forever.

0:19:54 Thomas: Yeah.

0:20:09 Tom: Yes.

0:20:30 Tom: We pass a law that says, hey, stable diffusion. If your technology doesn't have robust enough controls and it is able to produce these images, you will be held liable for the production of those images. Why is that something you don't want? Why is the production of AI images more important than having those safeguards in place?

0:20:42 Eli: It's definitely not something I don't want, it's something I want, it's almost impossible to do legally, right? In a broader sense, right. It is almost impossible because there is no one. I mean, there is a company called stable diffusion that has a product called stable diffusion, but the technology of right.

0:21:08 Thomas: Execute him!

0:21:10 Tom: No, no. I'm just saying, Why like, why are we putting this at the hands of 15 year old boys and saying, don't do this thing with this awesome technology? That's fucking insane. Why don't we put this in fucking, you know, the hands OF the tech bros who are building the technology and say, look, build it so it's safe. And if you can't build it so it's safe, it doesn't get to go out into the world.

0:21:10 Eli: But the no, yes, totally. Yes.

0:21:30 Thomas: That's interesting. If I might jump in. Sorry, Eli. I do Think your analogy to harassment, sexual harassment in school, a that's very interesting one to me. And while I see what you're saying, Tom, I also think that not only, Eli, did I witness that kind of harassment, absolutely echo that. And I think people, you know, the younger generations, I think, would be would be pretty horrified at the some of the stuff that was just totally normal in in our lifetime in school.

And if you had gone to the administration, they would have done something, actually think they 100 percent would have been, something. It, what changed was not that it became wrong, it was wrong, and people knew it was wrong, at least on paper, at least if you told a teacher or principal or whatever.

What really needed to change was the zeitgeist of the children, like honestly, because the, you get enough people, especially, you know, enough other dudes who, other, uh, or and also the teachers who who are not cool with it, to where it goes from a thing that people either kind of just don't really see, don't, oh yeah, that sucks, that's just one of those things, to, well, you could report it to, oh no, this is completely unacceptable. That's the major change.

It, always by the books in the 90s, we had sexual harassment, you, that's post -Clarence Thomas. We had a lot of those, you now, like we had those rules. And I know for sure if someone had gone to a teacher, those people would have gotten in massive trouble.

But the thing is, they, they either, they didn't, most of the time, they were too scared or they didn't, you know, they didn't feel themselves that, like, oh, this isn't something that like a big deal, because they' ve, you know, minimized it in themselves. And I think what changed is the culture around it, not necessarily like the letter of the law. And I think that's a really interesting, let me know if you disagree with that, interpretation, with, but it's just what came to me and

0:21:32 Eli: Please. No, get in there. Yeah.

0:23:12 Eli: No.

0:23:12 Tom: Yeah.

0:23:12 Thomas: I think that's an interesting insight.

0:23:13 Eli: No

0:23:14 Tom: Do this thing on the left, though, where in so many other circumstances, we recognize that individual people should not be responsible for what should be institutional changes. Right. Understand that. Right Like has this like really good tactic of laying at the foot of the individual, the to for coming up with institutional change. And then, of course, the individual can't create institutional change and that allows the exacerbation and continuation of these broad social problems, problems. This to me feels exactly the same, but,

0:23:23 Thomas: Yeah.

0:23:45 Thomas: I want to know is the exact opposite of what I said though. What I said was it's the zeitgeist. It's the cultural change. It's not an individual cannot produce that.

0:23:52 Tom: But like, also, like, you kind of said it's not, it's also not the letter of the law, but like legislation can produce this change.

0:23:56 Thomas: Yeah,

0:24:01 Eli: See, that's where I disagree, Tom, because I compare it again to rape culture, right, and the sort of rape culture we with, which is that it isn't that the laws about rape changed, right?

0:24:01 Thomas: Maybe not Yeah.

0:24:15 Eli: Around rape, what was and was not rape, changed. And I think what Thomas is talking about when it comes to sexual harassment, similarly, I don't think the policies, right— I don't think institutional policies about sexual harassment changed. I think it is the zeitgeist. So I completely agree with you about that right-wing thing about laying it at the foot of the individual, rather than sort of the spectrum, if you will, on the far right side is the individual responsibility and on the far left side being that the state should take it over and control it.

0:24:47 Thomas: Yeah. Like top down. Yeah.

0:24:48 Eli: I would say that I think it's slightly further to the right where it's not about the the state taking it over and legally enforcing it so much as it is about our societal zeitgeist changing to making these kind of pranks, quote unquote, uh exactly, uh, I use I use that word in in square quotes for a reason, um, right, to be seen as the sex crimes that they are. Yeah.

0:25:13 Tom: Well, Okay, I'm right there with you at the end, right, to be seen as the sex crimes that they are, except for that right now, without legislation, they would not necessarily be sex crimes, right? Because, again, revenge porn isn't even illegal in all 50 states. It's a misdemeanor in many of them. It's hard to prosecute. And then, by then, the damage is already done, right?

0:25:15 Eli: I

0:25:33 Thomas: I know this isn't OA, but what's the legal status of this particular story that talking about? It sounds like there's definitely criminal proceedings, right?

0:25:40 Eli: I mean, so everyone's a minor, so it's really really hard, because and also, also, the reporting is so fucking skewed on this. I mean, so one of the big things that I want to talk about, like, one of the real problems is this, is that nothing that I can find, and maybe I am wrong, right? Keep in mind, I have read three articles in a casual chat about this. So please, you know, give your baby a full bottle of Tylenol. But, like, nothing I have read uses what we currently consider AI technology to do this, right? AI has just been the shorthand that has been used in all the articles, which is wildly problematic, because it means we're hunting for the wrong kind of bear, right? We're hunting for a bear that is not the problem, right. And I think a lot of the time, the reason we're seeing AI used in these media outlets is they know AI deep fakes of kids, um, significantly more clicks and attention than Snapchat filter used to make porn of kids, right, because most people reading casually, scrolling, so Yeah, so

0:25:45 Thomas: Oh, that's right. Yeah.

0:26:41 Tom: Is there a meaningful difference there, a meaningful, a functional difference. Is there not a not difference, because there a functional difference between a Snapchat filter producing this material and it coming from anything else? Right? Because, like, again, if you were to take this seriously and say, OK, we want to make sure that nonconsensual sexual images are neither created nor shared, right? Something that I think is a is a to me is like such a simple moral goal, that doesn't matter if it comes from a Snapchat filter or if it comes from you some modification of mid journey or whatever, so what's the functional difference there?

0:27:21 Eli: The Functional difference, and I think it's an important one, is that companies like mid journey especially mid journey that's I mean, why, why they put it on Discord and don't have a private version you can download have put the safety wheels on their product hard, right? Mid journey could technically make perfect pornography at this point, right? Podcast listeners, to part the curtain slightly, um, am on a private, uh, Reddit that is just people making the most realistic AI photos they can, and when there's a really realistic one, I send it to Tom, and I'm I'm like, is it AI, Tom? Is it AI? Because I enjoy torturing him.

Like mid -journey, very much the wheels could come off of that. Right now, mid -journey is highly, highly, highly, high, highly monitored when it comes to this kind of stuff. I know people have other issues with mid - journey. I'm not here to debate that. I'm just talking about when it come to this kinda stuff. When using AI, I think if that misdirection, right? Hey, these AI companies are making child porn of your kids, as opposed to the very real problem of, hey there is a social media network that has always had huge problems when it comes to minors and nudes, right? I'm talking about Snapchat, right, that has been really

0:28:00 Tom: But

0:28:38 Thomas: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

0:28:39 Eli: Fucking sketchy, and, like, I go into it here, but, like, Snapchat has a wildly problematic, problematic history when it comes to protecting kids, right? And what they're, you know, not to go full Bo Burnham, because Bo Burnham once spent an entire interview being like, why is there an app to send pictures that disappear? Why is that on children's phones? Why would a child want that app? Why are they selling it to children? But, like, here's the thing, like, is significant to me, and this is what I think the functional difference is, it's significant to be that there is a social media company enabling this behavior rather than an AI company, and we're talking about AI companies rather than social media ones.

0:29:17 Tom: If if you're you, I mean, just to my prior point, in terms of like how we solve this as a society, like, wouldn't matter, the mid journey would just shrug and be like, yeah, yeah, sounds great, we've got robust controls, you know, Snapchat's on. It looks like your ass is in the wind, but mine's not. And everything's fine. Me, I guess, it doesn't matter functionally what technology is being used. The point to me is, like, photorealistic images are being created by some technology that allows for the creation of non -consensual sexual material to be created and distributed. And that seems like we should all decide, like, that's bad, right, and we can fix that.

0:29:17 Eli: Sure, Right.

0:29:53 Thomas: Yeah, I And it's one of those things where, like, it is a spectrum, I think, in terms of the quote unquote, like, accuracy, and I think it does matter, but it's also one of those human things that's very hard to draw a line of. I mean, if you took a photo, put on a piece of paper, and with a pencil drew, like, a body with, like, boobs underneath, it'd I mean, I think Tom would probably be like, yeah, put that person in prison for life, life.

0:30:18 Tom: Yeah.

0:30:18 Thomas: But most people would be like, all

0:30:19 Eli: My God, It's me, where did I get those, this mirror, this terrible mirror you've created, right?

0:30:22 Tom: No,

0:30:20 Thomas: Right, yeah, yeah, most People will be like, all right, that's like, obviously, it could be harassment depending on how it's used, but, like, it'd be hard to be like, yeah, you're you're distributing revenge porn because of the stick figure drunk.

And then you can go all the way to it, like, there's another level that's already existed for years, by the way, which is Photoshopping heads on to, like, porn stars' stuff, you know, and that's always been pretty obvious, but also, like, not entirely obvious that it's fake you already existed for a long time, and then you can go all the way to and I think I've seen a headline here, there, like a Reddit post here, there, about, like, we may get to the point we might as well have a conversation hypothetically we will get tothe point where it's like, oh, no, this AI is incredibly good at predicting what your actual naked body looks like based on, like, whatever the fuck it's trained on. And I do think that represents, like, a different level of thing. You know, like, I think those are, those different levels of seriousness that we would handle, I think, a little bit differently.

0:30:45 Tom: I Yeah, yeah,

0:30:45 Eli: Yes, which And I also think it's really important for people to understand, because AI is in such infancy, especially stable diffusion technology, um, will be perfect, right? It will be perfect so much sooner than you think. It will be perfect. If you have not looked up, like, Sora AI, to see the AI that ChatGPT is developing now, or if you've never seen a Midjourney iPhone photo, like, those are valuable things to inform your arguments around this kind of stuff.

0:31:26 Thomas: Yeah.

0:31:27 Tom: Yeah, And That's why, and I don't mean to interrupt you, but that's why I think it's a little bit of a distraction to say, well, these photos were probably created with the Snapchat filter rather than AI. It's like, okay, well, also, if we're talking about solutions, it's like, well, who cares, we know that the the time we hang up this phone call, maybe, right, technologies will do all the things that I am concerned about happening in the world, specifically to women and girls, and, like, making this parsing this out and saying, well, it's not happening now using specifically AI technologies, we're using a Snapchat filter, it'slike all right, fine, who gives a shit? You you just broaden out your your conversation and say, all right, look, any any technology that produces photorealistic images of non -consensual sexual material is subject to legal, you, of some kind. Like, don't have to parse it that thinly in order to get to the solution that matters. And it feels like a weird distraction to me, away from the central human issue, which is what I'm struggling to understand why that isn't the only thing that matters here. So

0:31:45 Eli: No, No, Wait, please, right, Yeah, absolutely, and I I think that's an important perspective. Go,

0:32:55 Thomas: I, it does matter because I think in the age of Photoshop, I think it would be pretty weird to do a bunch of regulation on the company Photoshop because people can use the tools to like blend and make it seem like you're making nudes of, I think it makes more sense in that instance to regulate the conduct of the person rather than like the technology, whereas I'm I'm agnostic on this time, maybe it would make, there could be technology that reaches a certain level where it does make sense to be like, all right, this entire technology needs to be regulated.

0:33:25 Tom: And I want to address that because I thought about that. And I what makes Photoshop different than the AI technologies, the app technologies that we're talking about that are really the thrust of the conversation is they are so much faster, cheaper and simpler to use. Use Photoshop. Well, requires a level of significant expertise and effort and work. Right. People still do it. They do it fine. But we're talking about like the difference here between, you know, in my mind, I know I use this analogy a lot with you guys offline muskets and machine guns like photoshop if I it's not like

0:34:04 Thomas: Let me just get a clarification, though, because you said the technology if if it can be used for this purpose, should be regulated and so are you saying then you would agree with me that like Photoshop would be left off of that then?

0:34:05 Tom: Yeah I I think you could leave photoshop off of it yeah yeah

0:34:17 Thomas: Yeah, no, that's all. So we agree. I think there's a distinction there.

0:34:18 Tom: Yeah I Think You Could Leave Photoshop But Yeah And I Agree With You I Just I I've Think Not Written The Legislation Right So Like I Don'T Know Exactly How To Phrase It, I'm just suggesting that there are ways we can phrase this so that they are sensible and they put their arms around this stuff that is going to be push button easy, and that matters, right? Makes A a big difference. We've seen so many times that of the biggest ways to reduce harm is to just make it a little harder to do the thing that makes harm. Right, we all know that it's true of like suicide prevention.

Right, make it a little harder to do and rates go down. We, you just make things a little hard to do, you're not going to eliminate what you can drastically curtail, so, and that's, we know that's true of all things human. This doesn't seem to be an exception. And the thing that is particularly dangerous about this is the ease of it, right? Like, Eli, you sent me the Sora stuff.

Sora just produces these sweeping video images with a line of text that would take you 30 seconds to write. We're talking about, like, not somebody sitting here and spending dozens and dozens of hours learning Photoshop. We're taking a look at a picture of a person. We're not talking about somebody, like, typing a text box. And this is going to happen, like we all agree, in a blink of an eye, time -wise. So I feel like those are important distinctions. We should not compare muskets to machine guns here.

0:34:26 Thomas: No,

0:35:44 Eli: I, I think Thomas's question though was just, is it about a technology's capability or ease of use, right? So, like, I think the gun question is

0:35:52 Tom: But is that a distinction you can really draw, though? Like, yeah,

0:35:53 Eli: Right

0:35:55 Thomas: My distinction was, is it about the technology or about just making potentially illegal?

0:36:01 Eli: Which is which is what Thomas and I are talking about, yeah. I mean, for me, I think it's going to be about, uh, transition of behavior on a micro level, right? Not all the way, as Tom pointed out, to like the right wing, like, just punish the individual, right? Again, using the gun metaphor, I don't know if you guys are aware, but there recently a mass shooter whose parents were sent to jail.

0:36:21 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, I wanted to. I almost thought that would be a good O.A. dads crossover.

0:36:22 Tom: That's

0:36:26 Eli: Yeah. And I think it's actually, there's a really important conversation to be had there about that has happened, the trial of gun manufacturers has not, Right, so I really want to emphasize, although it seems like, like, Tom and I are on slightly different points of the spectrum here, I do want to emphasize that like Tom's warning about the right wing individual responsibility thing is a real danger. But I think, think the societal shift that needs to take place is largely going to be about cultural norms rather than laws. I think it's going to be about what we, the things we are willing to talk about, the things we consider unacceptable, the way that sexual harassment stopped being a joke to our generation and started being a thing that was taken seriously, um, the example I want to give, this is a little good news, because I wanted to end with a little good news because this is a very dark conversation, which is, um, because of this being in the news, but also because the law is slow moving, um, largest website site for deep fake porn in the world was shut down this week,

0:36:37 Thomas: Yeah. Oh,

0:37:30 Eli: Um, was shut Down and it was shut down very simply because the, uh, internet service provider, uh, also uses MasterCard, uh, as their, like, credit card thing. And they were charging people through MasterCard for, you, deep fake, porn stuff. And someone reached out to MasterCard, or, or MasterCard's been working on it, and MasterCard just said, yeah, we do not want you to use our services anymore to make money on this thing, right? We are using our just like free business enterprise, is that the word, right, we're using our free enterprise choice not to do business with you anymore. They could no longer make money. And then, of course, when MasterCard made that decision, their hosting provider quickly made that decision, knowing that the amount of money they were going to be pulling in, and the website collapsed. Um, I want to say that, like, we have seen victories like this, uh, the collapse of Kiwi Farms, uh, last year, uh, which, for those of you who are unaware, was like a famous troll farm specifically

0:37:30 Thomas: Wow. Yeah.

0:37:30 Tom: Great news.

0:38:27 Eli: That targeted women with, like, horrible online harassment. And, and I think the arguments were very similar in a lot of ways, right? Which is, like, where's the difference between free speech, and we all agree that you shouldn't, like, have a hundred Twitter accounts that say horrible things to someone, but, like, how do you legislate that? And the way that it got brought down is, like, one activist just was like, hey, website provider, one of the websites on your website providing platform does this horrible thing, stop doing it. And they shut it down. They shut it down on that website.

And there are trolls who always point out, like, oh, you can find it at backslash.org slash onion or whatever but like it It is defanged in a very important way. And we've seen this AI website be defanged in a Very Important Way. And again, it wasn't like a law in the books did that. It is awareness and social pressure that did that there and are bad ways that can be wielded, right? But I also think there are incredibly positive ways that can wielded. And we are not as powerless in the face of this technology as I we are often told we are.

0:39:03 Thomas: Well,

0:39:30 Tom: So I love all that. I think that's Great.

0:39:32 Eli: No.

0:39:33 Tom: Is not, in my mind, and tell me where I'm missing, why is that mutually exclusive from passing the kinds of laws that I'm talking about

0:39:43 Eli: It is not it is not. And I, I don't I want to be clear, I don't disagree with passing those laws. I think it's harder and slower moving, and the societal changes we can make now. Yeah.

0:39:44 Tom: Right yes I, I hope we can make those societal changes now, I really do. I, I'll tell you what, like, the worry that I have is that I, reading this article, and I know lawyers have to do this, right, but like, there are going to be plenty of people who want to engage in an earnest conversation where they purport to say, hey, these pictures aren't real, and because they're not real, they don't matter legally, right? Like, I would contend that they are real.

0:40:22 Thomas: Or they're just should be treated differently. I think there is an interesting debate between should something be considered revenge porn or should just be considered sexual harassment? And, you know, like it's not that one would be more or less serious necessarily, but it might it might be kind of a weird distinction that you have to make when something is a fake image. Don't know if that's technically revenge porn you know what I mean like it's not I don't know. I think there's an interesting issue there. I don't really know my full thoughts on it, but like I'm not sure that necessarily means downplaying it. It might just mean treating it a different way, uh, STILL CRIMINAL

0:40:57 Tom: And maybe existing like defamation laws could be brought into play. Like I'm not, I don't want to pretend that I've got any kind of legal expertise. I guess like the worry that I have, and really I do feel this pretty strongly, is that there is going to be a desire for this technology to exist in an unfettered way, because that's kind of how we like the Internet, right? We want to say, hey, any excuse, I really feel like we want to say any excuse to have the maximum amount of freedom of speech, the maximum amount of whatever it is that serves the powers that be is what we're going to try to advocate for. People who end up eating shit here are going to have very few powerful people in their corner because they don't own the technology advocating

0:40:57 Thomas: YEAH RIGHT YEAH WELL

0:41:48 Eli: Yeah

0:41:48 Tom: For them. And as a result, we're going to have women and girls having all of these images or potentially videos circulated, which will have done damage. And then like maybe you can claw it back by saying, well, shame on you for doing that. And now you now you get expelled from school or now you got to write me a check. But it doesn't unring the bell, like the damage is, that we got to, you gotto fix it, not chase it. You know what I mean? How, like, do you fix it before you chase it?

Because I have no idea how to parent a 13 year old daughter who will certainly by time she's 16, I feel like I'm not a crazy person in saying that the rate of change we're at now, by time she's 16, do I believe that it, it will be impossible or even difficult for somebody to get mad at her and produce AI porn of her and then distribute around the school? I, I think that that's a very real thing, and I'm like, I, no way to parents hurt those, what do you, how do you protect somebody from that, I'm

0:42:10 Eli: And

0:42:47 Thomas: Yeah, but I mean that's already a problem. So are you saying that we need to somehow eliminate the ability for this technology to even exist?

0:42:54 Tom: I'm say we should eliminate the ability for the technology to produce non-consensual sexual images of people, and if it can produce them, them, then they are the ones, just like gun manufacturers. They should be the ones that are liable. Either produce a safe product or don't put the product to market. I don't know why we don't want that. Like we wouldn't accept cars that sometimes explode driving around on the road.

0:43:10 Thomas: Yeah well I I just like I think that

0:43:16 Eli: Someone Didn't Buy a cyber truck

0:43:17 Thomas: Yeah

0:43:18 Tom: Well, you

0:43:19 Thomas: Well I also think that this isn't I think the problem of someone okay so someone doing that what you just said versus let's say someone shares consensual nudes uh then then posts those non -consensually obviously does the same thing and they're real that's a worse problem to me and we we I think we have ways of handling That would be I would fucking hope in a school situation taken immensely seriously to the point of being probably criminal, I would think. So, like, is it that much different to where because, like we're not stopping the technology that allows that to happen, I guess is what I'm saying. We're treating that as something where you regulate the behavior, like you criminalize or police the behavior rather than like trying to eliminate photo technology or sharing technology. Is you think we need a different thing for this?

0:44:03 Tom: Do.

0:44:04 Eli: Exactly.

0:44:04 Tom: I think we need A different thing, because in order for you to share a consensual nude of me, I have to produce the nude, right? I have have to be involved at least in some way in that. Nude, I can parent my way through that, I can talk to, I've talked to the kids, I've got kids that are sexually active, and like we have conversations about like not sending nudes to each other. Why That's a bad idea, well,

0:44:05 Eli: No.

0:44:24 Thomas: That feels really victim blaming, though. I don't really like that at all, to be honest with you.

0:44:28 Tom: I'm sorry, but it's like, it's it's strongly my opinion, like it, you have to tell kids at a young age particularly, like, look, anything you send out from your phone, there is a non-zero chance that that is going to get distributed because that's true.

0:44:40 Thomas: Okay, you've told them that, they still did it, and it gets distributed. What's the, how does that help?

0:44:45 Tom: Well, then we pursue legal recourse. Yeah. But then we pursue legal Recourse, but like, at least I have a chance here as a parent and as, as a person in the world.

0:44:47 Thomas: Yeah, exactly. But we would have that chance to say, hey, don't produce these AI fake images, kids.

0:44:59 Tom: What?

0:44:59 Thomas: You'd have that same chance.

0:44:59 Tom: No, no, No, that's not true. Is, that's just not true, how can't control what somebody in, in someone's algebra class that does, that I've never met before, does. I'm never going going to have that conversation with them.

0:45:11 Eli: I, I think Thomas's question, Thomas correct me if I'm wrong here, I think Thompson's question is why you're laying the responsibility at the feet of the technology here rather than the individual, because when it comes to the photo sharing, you do lay the responsibility at the feed of the individual. Like, what makes this different than, like, why is it the technology's responsibility here to be limited as opposed to individual I

0:45:37 Tom: Because it's a very different technology, the, the one case, the technology involves the people who are having the picture taken at least a little bit, right? You can't share a picture of me that I don't send you, that I don't take.

0:45:51 Eli: Mean for for the sake of argument, right?

0:45:51 Thomas: You could get hacked. You could say, yeah,

0:45:52 Tom: Right.

0:45:53 Eli: I could hack it.

0:45:53 Thomas: I mean, there's plenty of, it

0:45:55 Eli: I could take it. I could take a while you were asleep. I could take while you are unconscious.

0:45:58 Thomas: Could be a medical photo that gets, you know, well, but either.

0:45:59 Tom: We Were we were talking about the sharing of consensual nudes. I'm sorry, so we're changing it then from

0:46:00 Eli: Right.

0:46:04 Thomas: The principle of someone putting up nudes on the school that are real versus AI generated is really the distinction that matters. And I don't think the that there is some level of interaction the victim is important. That just feels victim-blaming to me. It's weird. I

0:46:20 Tom: I Let me make sure that I'm being clear about what I'm saying here, to go back in time and regulate cameras, right? That's a silly thing to say, or regulate photo sharing. That's an interesting thing to to say. But I can, as a parent, at the very least, have a conversation with my kids. I can decide not to give them any photo technology, right, I can decide not give them a cell phone if I want to. I, I could look through their photo reel. I can make sure they don't have Snapchat. I can, in some ways, significant ways, if I want to, I can help those kids understand the danger of their interaction with other people in these sexualized ways. Right. And I have an obligation to do that as my kids grow up in a world where that sex and sexuality intersect with technology. The other technology is entirely different because the victim does have to be involved at all, right? It's entirely different. It's, don't, I don't feel like they intersect in meaningful ways, maybe.

0:47:18 Eli: The point that Thomas is making, and Thomas, again, interrupt me Yeah no, Thomas, correct me if I'm wrong, I think, I think that's a good point. I think the way that Thompson is making is that that interaction that you're describing about photo sharing technology is what Thomas and I are thinking about AI technology, right, which is about not being, not victims, but about not being victimizers. But it's

0:47:20 Tom: I'm misunderstanding, I don't know. Oh, No, I think that's terrible. Yeah, I think that's not going to, I mean, I like that we should do that, right? Like, we should tell everybody, like, like, don't rape anybody, but people still get raped. We haven't solved that problem of sexual harassment, even though we've been having sexual harassment training forever. Right. Mean, like the statistics on this are not good. Right?

0:47:58 Tom: Well, sure, it's gotten better. But like why would we treat this technology different than like manufacturing an unsafe car or we all on the left, I think, agree that we should hold at least I think we do that. That we should hold manufacturers responsible in the gun crime situations. Right. I don't see why it's different.

0:47:57 Eli: Gotten better, we

0:48:15 Thomas: Okay, to clarify, clarify, I, I think am under the assumption that this is going to be a broad kind of suite or class of technology that's not something that society will want to just turn off, in a way, like if it, if it truly is like, oh, should we make the child porn button, then like, oh yeah, for sure, like, do that, that should be illegal, like, that's what the technology is, sure, I think we, we agree. If it's not that, and it's a kind of technology like most every other technology, technology that's ever existed, where it has a range of purposes, and inevitably that will allow bad actors to use it in ways like this. To me, I think it's borderline, not a good, uh, at all to present the fact that you could have some sort of agency in terms of sharing your nudes as a big difference in those two things. To me, that makes zero difference whatsoever. There's no way that that changes the implications of the, criminal, the act, you think is dangerous to kind of instill that message. I really just strongly disagree with it.

0:49:15 Tom: Not sure I understand that. I don't. I mean, I'm not trying to be obtuse. I'm genuinely not sure I understand. Got a circumstance with this with this new technology where in a handful of years, if that pornography will be able to be created of anybody at any time without their consent. Or we can decide to tell these companies, hey, limit your technology, and to Eli's point, in exactly the ways that MidJourney has already done and is working on, right?

0:49:44 Tom: So we're not talking about saying, hey – it can't exist or it has to exist without these governors, right, and if you can't, you will be liable.

0:49:44 Thomas: I think we fully agree on that part of the thing. Uh maybe,

0:49:57 Tom: Ad that I'm

0:49:58 Thomas: Yeah depending on, Yeah, kind of depends on the details, but possibly, but

0:49:59 Tom: – yeah, right. Right. And that's that's all I'm suggesting is saying, hey, if these technologies are going to exist, they need to be created in ways that are safe. If they refuse to build them in waysthat are safe, then they have liability to to the use of those products.

0:50:15 Thomas: We would never say that with limit your ability to share photos of minors, even though you probably could, like you could Yeah.

0:50:21 Eli: Can Yeah. I should, I was

0:50:22 Tom: Yeah.

0:50:22 Eli: I was gonna say, like

0:50:22 Tom: OK. But if we can do that and we're not doing that, then like

0:50:24 Thomas: But even but but even any photos, like, like at all, because of this possible misapplication, which is, you, like, revenge porn essentially. And I think the area is where you're distinguishing those by saying, "Well, yeah, but in that one, you have some, the victim has some role to play," which is to me is just like completely inconsequential.

0:50:43 Tom: Distinguish. But the distinguishment that I'm making is that as people, we have the ability to, again, like talk to people, let them understand what the risks are, let have no ability. It's literally 100% out of our control the other way around. With the new technology, it's 100% of the time. It's 100 percent out of my control. Seems to me to be a difference. I don't see why that's not a difference, but I also think that's a distraction. The broader question okay yeah

0:51:00 Thomas: Right. But it, but that's the only part of this I'm really arguing with. So, so that's What I think, that's why I'm focused on it. 'Cause I pretty much agree that if the technology is such that it's pretty easy to just like turn off the make child porn button, like, yeah, that's, I'm, I'm fully with you. If it's not that you severable, for for whatever technological reason that I don't, don't understand, you know, then I don't know, it could be different, could be like the Photoshop question, or it could belike you another technology where it's like, yeah, well, we have to try to just police the people who use this badly rather than try to like fundamentally change or police technology itself. That's All, uh

0:51:45 Eli: Right, right. And, and I, and, and our conversation has gone long already, so I'm gonna try and wrap us up here, but I, I think it's worth pointing out that I think we live in the bad version of this universe when it comes to free speech in a lot of ways, and the Internet, right? Communication, the quick communication of fast, anonymous, free speech was something that didn't exist on the Internet 20 years ago. Right. I think that's fair to say. Then we started to create platforms where fast, autonomous, free speak that we all agreed was a bad idea became ubiquitous. Right? Right.

And I think the sort of effects that we see of social media, and this is why I think it's really important, the effects we see of social Media are from us letting that technology run wild, are from us as a society saying, what are you going to do? Right. You can't stop people. And I think there are real consequences of that real world changes and events that have taken place. I mean, I lay COVID in the the election of Donald Trump at social media's feet. And I think it all started when someone said, hey, you people be able to write whatever they want on Twitter? I mean, I won't go full crazy person here because I am. But like it is childishly simple. They It could do it instantly right now for zero dollars to get rid of all the Nazis on Twitter.

It would would just be so incredibly easy to make it impossible for anyone to get anything close to their message across on Twitter. And the reason that those people still exist is because it's not just that they have been slipped through the cracks. It is that the tech companies have actively worked to make that possible. My worry, and I don't go as far as Tom, right?

But my worry is is that we're going to see that same thing happening with AI imagery and AI content at the same time, right? That we will see this sort of lackadaisical laissez -faire attitude towards fake images, and it will do the same damage that fucking Facebook did and turned everyone's grandma into a QAnon -er, right, Right. And how we confront this technology that is going to move so much exponentially faster, I think, is a is interesting question. Perhaps for another day, gentlemen,

0:52:12 Thomas: Yeah.

0:52:41 Tom: Oh

0:54:18 Eli: Before we go, I didn't know that Sylvester Stallone was on his third marriage. Apparently, the first one was rocky and the second one was Rocky, too.

0:54:27 Tom: My god I

0:54:33 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

0:55:13 Tom: I'm ready.

0:55:13 Eli: These are video games game they're interactive television they're

0:55:17 Tom: Pass.

0:55:17 Thomas: Yeah. They're probably the last ones that they're current to him.

0:55:19 Tom: Pass, pass, pass.

0:55:20 Eli: Like a radio you can affect and or see okay all

0:55:25 Tom: Pass hard pass.

0:55:26 Thomas: Oh, it's so good.

0:55:27 Tom: It's just me and Ted Kaczynski hanging out. He's right about a lot of stuff. All