DOD125: Teaching Our Kids To Read Good

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Tom: To Dear Old Dads, the only parenting podcast officially endorsed by LeVar Burton. I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen. Shut

0:00:39 Thomas: That's huge news.

0:00:39 Eli: Was on an episode of Reading Rainbow. I was on episode of reading rainbow.

0:00:42 Thomas: What?

0:00:43 Tom: The fuck up. What?

0:00:43 Thomas: No way!

0:00:43 Eli: Yep.

0:00:44 Tom: What? Are you just living my dreams? What is happening?

0:00:47 Thomas: Oh my god.

0:00:48 Tom: Shut

0:00:44 Eli: My mom's book, my mom's book, The Carousel, was featured on an Episode of Reading Rainbow. And so I got to be on that episode of Reading Rainbow, he came to Binghamton, New York, and he looked at our carousel that the carousal in the carousell is based on, got to meet LeVar Burton.

0:01:03 Thomas: Holy shit.

0:01:03 Eli: He was awesome.

0:01:04 Tom: The fucking up. See, I want off this show. I don't like you anymore. Like, I have a jealousy right now that is so ugly. So ugly. Frankly,

0:01:06 Eli: Yeah. Yeah,

0:01:10 Thomas: Love how the stories we've never heard about Tom are that he almost got eaten by another thing when he was 10 and we didn't... Oh yeah, reminds me of a time I almost got eaten by a thing and my mom robbed a bank and she was also D.B. Cooper. Just stuff like like that.

0:01:23 Eli: And she used me as a bulletproof vest. It was, no,

0:01:24 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. The ones we get from Eli are like... was I on TV before with a beloved childhood hero.

0:01:32 Tom: I And I first start talking and I tell Eli just casually, we're talking about books, I'm like, oh yeah, my favorite book is this book, Grendel, by John Gardner. I'm thinking he probably hasn't even heard of it, he's like, oh yeah, my mom used to be married to him, and I'm like, what the fuck is even happening, what do you mean was married to John Gardiner, like the author of my favorite, favorite book of all time.

0:01:40 Thomas: Oh my God. Yeah. Wait, Wow.

0:01:50 Tom: And she's just like, oh yeah, my mom was married to him. I'm like, fuck you.

0:01:52 Eli: She's the sexy ghost in Mickelson's Ghost, which is, let me say, very conflicting for me, very clearly based on my mom, and it's upsetting.

0:01:58 Thomas: Yeah! I would never, never read that in a million years.

0:02:06 Eli: Yeah, Yeah, you think the journals are bad. What what if one of The Great American Authors had written your dad's journals?

0:02:08 Thomas: Yeah... Oh. Wow, but you've read it though, I assume.

0:02:19 Eli: I have read it. Yeah, it's good. John Gardner. You can't not read John Gardener.

0:02:22 Thomas: I have never, I didn't know who John Gardner was, I'm sorry, I'm illiterate. I don't know if I've said that. She

0:02:30 Eli: She recently, I sent a picture of this to Tom. I'm not remembering which book it was, but it was like a philosophy book. I think it was John Locke. She recently was like, oh, I found this.

0:02:37 Thomas: Fucked John Law. Sorry.

0:02:40 Eli: Close. She was like oh, found this, she gave me it. And it was John Gardner's copy of John Locke with his margin notes. And I was like mom, you know there are like museums and universities that want this.

0:02:40 Thomas: Oh. Wow. Well

0:02:51 Tom: That's yeah, just, that's just incredible. And it was, I remember it was Being and Nothingness, it was his copy of Being in Nothingness.

0:02:57 Eli: And There it is. Being

0:02:58 Tom: Yeah.

0:02:58 Eli: And Nothingness. Yeah.

0:02:59 Tom: Yeah, so yeah, that's not unbelievably fucking

0:03:01 Thomas: Anyway, a Tale of two dear old dads, it was the best of times, it was the worst of times.

0:03:02 Tom: Cool.

0:03:09 Eli: And Thomas, all your stories are sad, but you don't remember them because of ADHD. So it's sort of it's the perfect three bears situation. Right. Like we can be like, did anyone here ever get hit by a meteorite? And Thomas would be like. Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. No, I did. I did got hit by meteorite because my dad was like the roof needed a pad. And I don't really remember. Remember, my mom was doing her best, she was, she was down there on the floor being like it'd be okay if he doesn't do that, there

0:03:11 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:03:26 Thomas: Why do we even do the show anymore, let's just have Eli do Eli should do a whole episode just be every character, just for fun.

0:03:41 Eli: We go, that's the final episode, that's our April Fool's Day.

0:03:46 Tom: Eli's gonna steal the show, he's gonna change all the passwords and then nobody knows you know, because he's playing all the the parts yeah.

0:03:49 Eli: And it's just me doing All the voices, oh

0:03:50 Thomas: Yeah. And Meanwhile, Tom and I are like, oh, that's fucking great, go ahead, we're too busy.

0:03:55 Eli: Finally

0:03:55 Tom: I know, just like Oh, I'm sleeping, thank god, I'm turning off the zapping watch and taking a fucking nap, please steal from me, I'm so tired.

0:04:00 Eli: Nice, yeah, at last Please steal my workload, that's Top's management book, it's coming out in the fall, everybody. But

0:04:10 Thomas: Yeah. It was like, you know, I just recently Lydia put on The Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, which is a childhood favorite movie of mine, and hers too apparently, and you know, when you watch as an adult, it's of kind obviously very silly, and there's a, there's an medieval knight that's just been sitting there drinking the drinking grail like the whole time, he's still guarding it just for like 700 years later or whatever it is, that's, I think that's Tom and maybe me, like we're just, we're like, oh thank god someone found our podcast grail, we can die now.

0:04:29 Eli: Yeah. I'm just waiting good, excellent what Do you think he did, do you think he jerked it, are they allowed to jerk it

0:04:45 Thomas: God, sorry. If he went 700 years without jerking it because of some weird religious thing, I mean, at that point you have the Holy Grail, you're gonna believe in god, like Yeah. To every single Christian propaganda, you and I would believe in god if we, we found a holy grail that kept us alive.

0:04:46 Tom: Oh shit

0:04:53 Eli: Right. We found the holy Grail

0:04:59 Thomas: Forever.

0:04:59 Eli: And we're keeping us alive, yeah, absolutely. That

0:05:00 Tom: Oh, fuck, yeah, I'll believe in whatever you want me to believe if I get to, yeah.

0:05:03 Eli: That would be extraordinary proof that I had required any,

0:05:04 Tom: Yes.

0:05:05 Thomas: Yeah. And then, you know what I would do? So you'd be stuck as that knight in that little place, killing one guy like every four million years. And I would be praying to God every day. God, if it's okay to jerk it, just give me a sign, please. God, please!

0:05:18 Eli: Any sign if I could jerk it. Well, here's the problem. Here's why God's not going to let you jerk it, because all those cups are going to be full of cum by the time the next guy comes around. Right? I don't know about you guys, but I jerk off like a grail a week. So, so you're, you're doing the riddle and you're like hurriedly dumping stuff down the drain. And he's like, wait, what's that? And you're Like, nothing, nothing. Nothing. Nothing. It's, uh, he who is the wise man in the carpenter.

0:05:36 Thomas: Yeah, the grailful is the standard measurement of that. Yeah. It Completely ruins God's whole plan of like you gotta choose the right one.

0:05:56 Thomas: Harrison Ford comes in, he's like, shit, he just starts cleaning the one good one and he picks like one bad one to clean too, like, all right, it's one of those two, the rest are just, come, oh,

0:06:03 Eli: Nope. Is it, is it the one you didn't jerk off in? Maybe.

0:06:11 Eli: How long, if the question for me is not whether or not I would jerk off into all the other cups, it is how long until I jerked off into the Holy Grail. And it's like a it's a really short time it's

0:06:16 Thomas: God, oh, yeah, yeah,

0:06:22 Tom: This is our parenting show, I just want to throw out there, this is our parenting

0:06:25 Eli: Like people leaving the room and they come back in and it is full of cum, but you know the only thing worse than achieving immortality by drinking your own cum from the Holy Grail? Why, it's the auto ads, the auto adds, truly the slippery, slippery sperm that guarantee forever life of our podcast, but you cannot drink a Holy Grail full of cum. I can't imagine any human beings are listening to this podcast at this point.

0:06:26 Thomas: We're not recording time don't worry

0:06:37 Tom: Jesus Christ, oh God

0:06:54 Thomas: Yeah,

0:06:55 Tom: Everybody has turned this off a long time ago. This is it

0:06:56 Eli: Right everyone

0:06:56 Thomas: We're basically just Podcasting for the, for the AI takeover. Like when they go use every podcast to train. Yeah, yeah.

0:07:00 Eli: Exactly, yeah, like, There's a cat who has a podcast left on so it doesn't get nervous and a bunch of spiders for Spotify. So yeah, um, yeah, going over to patreon.com/dearolddads, so you get an extended commercial-free version of every single the episode with a little parenting story at the end when Tom feels like it, and we have monthly bonus episodes. Uh, we did an AMA last month that was fun. Oh, we should post another one of those.

0:07:10 Tom: We

0:07:30 Thomas: We should post another one. Yeah, yeah.

0:07:31 Tom: Should Yeah, we're

0:07:32 Eli: So the more reason sign up for Patreon. Maybe by the time you're a patron we'll have posted that. That, who's to say, who's to say, only our hearts. patreon.com/dearolddads. Yeah, no, they're like, my wife has the rickets, should I take the miraculous shot that belongs not to the son, that's actually a modern parenting question too.

0:07:46 Thomas: It's been weird answering questions from like pilgrims and stuff, so we should update that. Yeah,

0:07:50 Tom: That's true,

0:08:00 Eli: Let me a controversial, you guys boosting your kids, you boost, not now, you know what, I'm not asking Tom, because Tom is the fucking million dollar man when it comes to vaccines.

0:07:58 Tom: That is yeah, right.

0:08:00 Thomas: Uh yeah oh Tom,

0:08:11 Tom: Why in the world wouldn't you give your kids boosters? Yeah, man, fuck yeah.

0:08:15 Thomas: Do I have to do an extracurricular booster, or is this a, I just do whatever, here's what I do, whatever the doctor fucking says, I don't know, I don't have time to think about it, is the doctor telling me

0:08:16 Tom: No,

0:08:19 Eli: He me a new booster nah, doctor doesn't bug you enough. Doctor doesn't say the doctor once a year is like I'll hit your kid nine times with one needle if you want, but like you gotta, if you wanna stay up on flu shot yearly, all that kind of I know you gotta schedule it, we're scheduling the new boost, the new new booster for max but he gets a fever after it and that sucks.

0:08:26 Thomas: Oh, man, damn,

0:08:29 Tom: They won't yeah they're never gonna call you

0:08:35 Thomas: It I don't need another thing okay fuckers a news boosh, yeah you

0:08:47 Tom: The amuse booster, yeah, Wait, which one do you get? Oh, because he's little enough, he can only get Pfizer.

0:08:55 Eli: You can't get the fucking nice cool Costco shot. The protein one.

0:08:56 Tom: Right. Right. He can't get the Novavax shot. Yeah.

0:09:00 Eli: Speaking of cum, speaking of injecting cum into yourself, everybody. No vex it's a protein vaccine, protein cum, cum is protein, team, it's all Coming together I

0:09:03 Tom: What? OK. All right.

0:09:08 Thomas: Can't stop the show for that you gotta

0:09:09 Tom: It's all coming together.

0:09:10 Eli: Sure can tell me how to fly

0:09:14 Thomas: Uh, all right, Lydia, if you're listening when editing, let's make sure, make appointments for the cum shot, or whatever that Eli's saying, make more appointments for the cup shot

0:09:23 Eli: If not how you schedule sex from now on I'm disappointed, Linnea, let's, uh, make appointments for the cum shot. If you know, actually, I think that's too explicit, I don't even think that that's just an entendre, that's a tond tondra, but yeah, no, we're scheduling it and like I have to schedule for him to have a fever, flavor is the thing. And yeah, vaccines are a miracle, better than COVID. We drink a bottle of time. And obviously we know that this is better, but it's just like, they keep being like, yeah, you can come in anytime. We have plenty. And I'm like, well, no, I can't come in any time because he's got music class the next day and he's going to feel like fucking garbage, ma'am. So first

0:09:23 Thomas: Yeah Yeah.

0:09:26 Tom: Yeah, right.

0:09:41 Thomas: And

0:09:57 Tom: Feel like it's the same thing for grownups, too, though, is like you have to plan to be like, OK, when can I be out of commission for 12 to 24 hours?

0:10:04 Thomas: So that is so weird. So I've always had the hardest time with the flu shot. Really bad time with a flu shot COVID shots. I actually didn't, I think, I thinking maybe the first one was bad, but whenever I get those or have gotten a booster, I've had almost nothing afterward, but I haven't gotten the fancy fancy one. So I don't know. Maybe.

0:10:19 Tom: I've never had a reaction from the flu shot in my life, but every COVID shot I've had, except for the Novavax 12 hours after I get the shot, I feel like boiled garbage for about another 10 hours, and then I'm fine and then I'm like, fine so

0:10:21 Thomas: Huh? Yeah. Yeah.

0:10:32 Eli: The fun prank that I play on my wife is I also get sick after the booster, but I forget I am and become certain that I was not sick. So I'll be like, oh, I got boosted today because I'll fucking be at CVS picking up some thing and I'll be like oh wait when did I get the last one, I look at the app and I'm like oh okay I should get another booster, get another booster and then i'mlike oh fuck I feel awful and she's like why would you do that and I was like I didn't remember that one, but you, in my defense, right, a COVID booster is just one of those things, you do it, would be like if one of your dental cleanings a year made you violently shit your pants and you had to remember that the September dental cleaning is always the the one that makes you shit your pants, I

0:10:41 Thomas: Well,

0:11:07 Tom: I know so you did schedule it for him though?

0:11:17 Eli: Do, yeah, of course, I'm not not Scheduling. It's just gotta fucking

0:11:18 Tom: Yeah, yeah, you've gotta do it, yeah

0:11:20 Thomas: I would time it with the, you know, getting rejected from daycare, you Know, kind of thing we've while we're on the topic of bullshit like that. We've got a great thing where Remy tends to get a little bit of a rash from his drool. I don't know if I think it's pretty common thing for babies, you Now teething.

0:11:20 Tom: Oh,

0:11:34 Thomas: Have you ever, ever have that? Yeah, after our daycare had a bout of hand, foot, and mouth, they've now decided that Remy has hand foot mouth twice a week, so it's fucking awesome to be super busy with everything else and then to get the call from the daycare, hey, he's got, he's gotta rash and we're gonna have to send him home, oh, and the first like two times I was like, shit, okay, uh, you know, and then we go get him, it's nothing, so now every time I'm like, does he have a fever, does he have a fever. No, I'm not picking him up. I'm like, it

0:11:20 Eli: Oh yeah sure yeah Max Max needs to get them all the time

0:11:46 Tom: Jesus Christ.

0:12:04 Eli: No

0:12:04 Thomas: Gets to the point where,

0:12:04 Tom: I don't want him. I don'T want him until he gets a fever. I'll bring him back to my home when he gets a fever, not a day earlier.

0:12:05 Eli: He's your kid now yeah right

0:12:05 Thomas: Yeah, I Lydia, you know, she, she can't fight him, but I fight like Lydia the other day. So, so Lydia has had to send like 10 pictures to the doctor to try to get them. Cause the gimmick is, all right, if you get the doctor, to say it's not hand, foot and mouth, he can come back. And then, so we, we go through our Kaiser app and we're just like, you know, please, please respond, please response. You know, cause like it's been times when we have so much work to do and we can't have a baby here, we, that's why we pay exorbitant fees to

0:12:33 Eli: Yeah they

0:12:34 Tom: That's why you pay for the child care, yeah.

0:12:36 Thomas: Yeah and I just get so mad because it's like we've, the first one time, totally forgiven, I get it, the the 10th time, you know, what, this is, you're fucking with us, it's the worst

0:12:46 Eli: Ever send him home because he's being a piece of shit, that happens to Max sometimes, they'll be like, oh yeah, he's got a fever. And And I'm like, was he crying a lot beforehand? And they're like, oh, yeah, I guess he was. And I was like, yeah. That'll heat him up a little bit. Was he being a big piece of shit that you didn't want in your class anymore? Is that it? Send him home to me?

0:13:05 Thomas: Yeah actually Remy, Remy has been a good bit, is Remy, is confusing, I don't understand Remy, he's, he's a weird combination of, I think he's mainly like Phoebe, but I think Remy's, Remy's biggest thing is that he gets bored. And so with us, he's extremely mad all the time because you, it's hard to let a baby do shit. You know, we let him crawl around and then all of a sudden he's fucking falling down the stairs or whatever, you know, like there's just so many ways that, and if we use the baby gates, which we set up, no, we always watch him. And then he screams.

0:13:29 Eli: Right. Right. Yeah.

0:13:31 Tom: And by the third time he tumbles down the stairs, you figure, like, I've got to start watching him, right? Like, yeah,

0:13:42 Thomas: And And he's like, the well, Tyrannosaurus doesn't want to eat the goat that's chained to the thing. Tyrannosaurs wants to hunt. So he hates that. So we've had to, like, kind of risk letting him out around more because the screaming. I'm telling you this. I know I'm not going to go into it again. You can't deal with that level of screaming 24 hours a day. It's impossible. But at daycare, he's the best fucking kid in the world. They literally made him an award the other day. Like, I'm Not Even Joking. We Lydia comes, yes.

0:13:46 Eli: Right. Yeah, exactly.

0:14:07 Eli: Best baby who never screams?

0:14:10 Thomas: This is not, Eli. This is not even an exaggeration. Like Lydia comes home and, and she's like, they made him an award for like best baby today. And it's like his picture. And it has like a bunch of writing on it. That's like happiest, literally happiest baby was what it was.

0:14:25 Eli: That rules.

0:14:25 Thomas: Yeah. Meanwhile at home, he's a delight. I will say I've complained about his screaming, but man, Remy is really delightful.

0:14:27 Eli: Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, Max. Oh, Remy fucking rules.

0:14:38 Thomas: He's getting so cool every day.

0:14:38 Eli: Remy fucks so hard. And can I say, and look, I don't like to call my shots, but like, I think there's like a 14% chance that Remy turns out to be a fat guy and me and Remy are going to hit some restaurants right now. Let me explain. Let me explain for everyone gets crazy with me. All right. Ramy loves to eat. I fed Remy about 84 billion teething crackers for the 14 seconds he was at my house. And I'm just saying that That relationship is sustainable, right? As he gets older, I will take him to more complicated places to eat until eventually we're at Per Se together. But I'm just saying, me and Remy fucking chowing down on Italian food, you know, arguing with the waiter about what the definition of unlimited soup, salad, and breadsticks means and whether or not they do have to call corporate.

0:14:53 Thomas: Yeah. So much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The Strong Possibility. Strong, but he, it's been comical, like, he'll eat to where I'm like, "Oh, I bet he's gonna eat more." Oh, god, he is eating like he goes from funny to like concerning where I'm like, he's still, he'll be, you can see his little belly like just turn into this giant balloon and he's still shoving stuff in his mouth like as much as he can fit it, it's crazy, I, it's it's the weirdest thing. So yeah, I think the strong probability there.

0:15:32 Eli: Yeah. Yeah. Will say, because, like, I know why I've got, like, fit friends, or the world has become healthier, but like kids get in with within a range of me, snacky kids, and they're like, "Wait, that's a possibility?" I'm like, fuck yeah it is. I remember Jujubee, Jujubee, the famous Jujubby, the first time she came over to our house, she saw that we have those XO containers because I'm fancy like that, thank you patrons, getting the high end, but one of those big fucking XO containers that you can seal full of goldfish crackers, and she just never seen that many goldfish crackers in her life. And she was like, "Can I, can I have some of those?" And I was like, "Yeah, you can have as many as you fucking want." And she was like, "As many as I want?" And I was like, "Yeah, you can fucking go ham, these are like four dollars, your parents suck, you can get four, you get giant cartons of these and you just pour them in here, it's nothing, it matters not at all. You're not gonna want anything that costs anything until you're 15 years old."

0:16:00 Thomas: Yeah.

0:16:38 Eli: Uh, called you all together today to join Tom and Thomas in holy matrimony. Now, I called because I want to talk about teaching your kid to read, because I'm very excited. Max is what is known in education circles as pre-reading, which means he recognizes all the letters. Every time he knows all the sounds all the letter make, he recognizes the big letters, recognizes the small letters, and he can also do flow, right? Right. So the big step that happens when they're like five or six years old at the earliest is flow, which is you go Matt and your kid can go Matt. That's how you got to phonically teach him.

0:16:55 Thomas: Wow. Holy shit. Really?

0:17:15 Thomas: I'm so sorry. Can you remind me precisely how old your child is?

0:17:18 Eli: He's almost four. So he's way, way early to do this stuff. And I got to say, as the parent of a neuro spicy kid, you spend most of their life with people being like, well, well, there's a pretty serious delay in fecal excofocation. And you're like, Uh-huh. And they're like also his fingers don't work as good as they should. And you know, you're going to be like, all right. And they were like, his eyeballs are a little slower than they need to be. Okay. We'll send it. Is there eyeball therapy that's somehow expensive and covered by insurance at the same time? Oh, there is. Okay. Well, let's just tack that in in between the ball shocks with the watch. But this is something that Max is like really, really

0:17:20 Thomas: Wow. No kidding.

0:17:22 Tom: That's awesome.

0:17:56 Thomas: Yeah,

0:17:56 Eli: Early at developing.

0:17:57 Thomas: That's crazy.

0:17:58 Eli: Yeah. Yeah. And he like sounds out full ass books. I was recently telling a friend about this and they were like, Hey, just so you know, like, no offense, like you're a loving parent, but you you're, are doing this. Um, you're reading him books that he is familiar with and he's make those sounds at those words. And then he's just copying what you usually do. It's not actually reading those words, don't worry about it. And I was like, literally on video took a video of me writing words.

0:18:22 Tom: I you were like, no, fuck you, I'm right.

0:18:24 Eli: Yeah. I was like, say a short word that a kid can get. And he was like cat. And I was like, I was Max, Matt, what word is this? And was like sound it out fucking out. And he was like cat. And I was like fucking does it. We did three words on the phone and he was like, all right, your kid's pre-reading.

0:18:14 Thomas: Wow, yeah, that is crazy, man. That's awesome.

0:18:39 Tom: Wow.

0:18:40 Eli: But now here's the problem. First of all, you got to teach your kid to read. So I read a bunch of books about teaching your kid To read because there was a thing in parenting. And that's what what I do is I read 18 books on it. So fact, by the way, if you want to read a book that is written by previous life, no illusions, read why little Johnny can't read and what you can do about it. I won't tell this boring story. I think I might do a citation needed essay on it, but I won'T tell the whole story basically.

0:19:05 Thomas: Too boring for dads, do it, on Citation Needed.

0:19:06 Eli: Right. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Where I can force people to make jokes about it requires a whole team to make jokes about it. So I, we first started teaching people to read, like when the English language came out, we did phonics, right, which is like these letters, these sounds. But I don't know if you know this, kids are fucking stupid. So people were like, there must be a better way. And so someone was like, we teach them what the words look like. And so there was this, I don't forget what it's called, it's guessing but sight words yeah where It's like you learn what the word "cat" looks like, and the word "train" looks like, and it feels great for a parent because your kid memorizes what the word looks like and they come home and they're like, "The cat went on the train." And you're like, "Fuck yeah." But then you rearrange the letters, then they're like, "The cat on the train, motherfucker." And you're like, "No, you gotta sound it out." So that was really popular all the way through the seventies. And in the seventies, No Illusion, senior

0:19:07 Thomas: Yeah. Yes.

0:19:19 Thomas: They are sight

0:19:33 Tom: Sight words, though, is that right? Yeah. Uh-huh.

0:19:34 Thomas: Words yeah yeah

0:19:58 Eli: Wrote this book called why little Johnny can't read and what you can do about it. And I am not kidding. 80% of this book is, and then this asshole, it's just him being like, you fucking fucks messed up reading.

0:20:08 Thomas: Yeah they did. Hmm.

0:20:11 Eli: I read that book. I also read, uh, Teach Your Kid to Read in a Hundred Lessons, which is what everybody recommends because, and I don't know if you know this, Tom, want I you to speak to your experience. Cause I know you know, this school will not teach your kids to read. They will tell your kid, like, these are the reading things they'll work on. Reading with them, but like the notion that you can send your kid to school, come home and not work on reading at home and your kid will be able to read, not true, not, they will not teach your kid to read, I will just tell you hey your kid can't read and you gotta fucking, and then they'll be mad at you

0:20:40 Thomas: Okay your kid is four, what, what experience are you basing this on, because I, oh okay I was gonna say because our little school is doing a hell of a job. Like I've felt, I had a feeling where I was like, shit, I've been, you know, consumed completely for over a year. I have definitely not put in the time, uh, just, just hobbies and stuff.

0:20:46 Eli: No I was talking about Tom's because I know Thomas had some experience in this area, why would you have anything going on what's going, you got a new project something fun

0:21:05 Thomas: Yeah. And

0:21:05 Eli: I love it. Hockey. He's a hockey fan, everybody. That's why you're so tired all the time, because you're always playing hockey.

0:21:06 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Just, just playing hockey. Yeah, um, and

0:21:12 Tom: All that hockey, man. Yeah.

0:21:13 Thomas: I Like, I was feeling like, oh, shit. I've really dropped the the ball in this and then and then they little school is doing an amazing job with the reading so I guess it really depends.

0:21:15 Eli: Sometimes he cries about hockey. I guess it does. But, Tom, did you want to speak to that? And then I'll sort

0:21:26 Tom: I it's funny because like I am actually convinced that the process of learning to read happens through magic. I think it's entirely a process Based in magic. And that's it, because experiences were so different with all the kids. Like Amen struggled like crazy to learn to read. So he got an IEP and he went to a reading reading specialist and the reading specialist helped that dude learn to read, kind of like was like one of the- and with all my kids, my experience that they were reading was kind of the same. It was like, hey, they can't read. Now they can, what- just happened? Now they, what, the- fuck. Now that, like, Amen was absolutely that way. He's just like, he couldn't read like, kind of at all. I mean, he was terrible at it. He didn't even seem to have like any

0:21:33 Thomas: That's true yep yeah what

0:22:00 Eli: B

0:22:08 Thomas: Age

0:22:09 Tom: Natural interest in it. I- it, I mean, this was- was like until last year. He really struggled with it like crazy. I mean, he was really pretty far behind in the reading. Um, then I mean, genuinely, a little bit overnight, I really felt like within a week or two something clicked and he was like, oh yeah, I can kind of read. And now he just reads all the time. Like, kind of felt the same way with Finn. With Fin, I did a ton of reading to him. I sat with him. I read with him like crazy. That was like the thing that I was supposed to do all the time- is constantly reinforce, constantly reinforce, always be reading, never don't

0:22:10 Thomas: Age are we talking or shit amazing yeah

0:22:43 Tom: Read. Always be read when they're asleep fucking read to him. Yeah, just know, he had various levels of interest. I think a lot of times he liked the snuggle time that was involved- a lot of time he liked just, the you know, climb up into my lap and look at the pictures. Like, didn't feel like it was making progress until like one day he was- was just like, yeah, I could just fucking read, dad. And I was like, wait, what? I don't understand how reading works Yeah, I- never known Aislinn to not be able to read, because I met her when she was six and she could read very well at that point. So, and same with Dot. Me was 10, so

0:22:45 Thomas: He was

0:22:45 Eli: -R, yeah.

0:23:06 Thomas: Doing a bit the whole time time.

0:23:08 Eli: Yeah, right.

0:23:16 Thomas: It's amazing. It is magic. My And experience is once you start, and this is true with almost everything we teach our kids. My experience with Phoebe was like, the minute you start trying to teach him something, I it's one of the reasons I just, I love being a parent so much. I had This profound feeling of how the fuck does anyone learn anything? It's actually not possible. It'S not possible! It's AMAZING!

0:23:33 Eli: Yes. You sit there and you go, do I know how to read?

0:23:40 Thomas: Yeah, I know! I'm actually not sure I do. I don't don't know if I do now, you

0:23:41 Tom: Yeah. What? And here's the crazy thing too, about I was thinking about this with respect to Amen, but just reading in general, I've been thinking aboutthis for the last, like, months, like six, like most of the words we learn, we don't learn. Like we don't learn them in an individual. I learned that word way. Most of all of the language, we could have a vocabulary that we're walking around with, with tens of thousands of words in our working vocabulary, almost none of which we learned formally and almost all of which we just sort of intuit through context.

0:23:58 Thomas: Absorb,

0:24:13 Tom: That's Fucking nuts. And then, like, the the other thing that, like, is blows my mind about reading that feels so different than other, like, what I would consider like core skills is that once you learn it, it is the most unconscious skill like,

0:24:12 Thomas: Yeah, yep, and it's

0:24:12 Eli: Right, we just vibed Out. Um,

0:24:25 Thomas: Yeah. You actually can't not do it. That's the whole test they do with the colors and the words and that thing.

0:24:26 Eli: Yeah, yeah.

0:24:30 Tom: It's like math.

0:24:31 Thomas: It's involuntary.

0:24:32 Tom: I have to consciously do math, right? Like, I have to, like, at least, like, a reach into the part of my brain that's like, "One plus three... yeah, that's four." But like, it doesn't feel like I just see it and know it.

0:24:34 Thomas: Yeah.

0:24:39 Eli: Yeah I can look at four plus three and not think seven all fucking day baby. All fucking day.

0:24:43 Thomas: Oh, yeah I can't. I actually can do that. Maybe that's a different brain, I don't, yeah.

0:24:47 Tom: I and maybe Like, like, but reading is just - that word just is in my brain now. As soon as my eyes see it, I'm like, yeah, I saw that the same way I saw that I know a tree is something I recognize.

0:24:52 Thomas: Yeah it's crazy. Yep.

0:24:56 Eli: Well, Yeah.

0:24:57 Tom: It's that crazy. So I don't understand reading. I'm convinced the whole thing is fucking magic, start to finish. And it's like walking. It's like you learn to do it, and you're like, well, that's just something I do now. That's fucking crazy.

0:25:08 Eli: And This is exactly the situation that came up for us, right? Was like, all right, Max really loves letters, he's really smart with this kind of stuff, I think he's ready to do some sounding out stuff. And then I was like, what does that mean, right? Right. 'Cause I got, okay, this letter makes this sound, this letter makes this sound, and again, like, I is about to be the weirdest bitch. First world problem, which is like, be a naturally bad parent, which I am, right? I'm a loving person, I adore my son, I want the best for him, but I have no parenting instincts. I am like, fear. Does this situation require panic?

0:25:42 Eli: Does anyone ever need, if there's ever a machine that keeps my son alive, like an iron lung that runs on anxiety, society, I'm fucking set. Otherwise I need a book and three articles from the internet. But the worst part about that is I am paired with a very good natural parent, right? It doesn't read shit about dick, but she'll be like, "You know, I made up this fun game," where we put the beans inside these cups and that teaches you numbers, and of course it's great, and of force it works, and I'm like, the 97 articles I read online said that the - clitem master, oh, you already taught him, fuck. So it

0:25:42 Thomas: My

0:26:04 Tom: Yeah,

0:26:18 Thomas: Favorite

0:26:18 Eli: Was also that, like, I was like, oh, we should work on sounds. And then she just started doing sound stuff during their, like, potty time and during their, man. Then he learned the sounds. But again, I was just stuck this moment where I was, like, how do - how does reading work, right? Because I knew letters and sounds, but then I literally was just sitting there with like a flashcard being like, sound it out. And he was like, what would that fucking mean to me, man?

0:26:41 Tom: Right. That's nothing, Dad.

0:26:42 Eli: No, you take all the, take all those sounds and then you put them together. What? Put? Do it all in a row?

0:26:43 Tom: That's not a Thing. Yeah.

0:26:53 Thomas: Yeah, my favorite thing is when school reveals how much I don't know something, and what I love is, look, the common core stuff is actually great, and everybody talks shit about it, but it's because I think in their minds everything has to be how it was for them when they were that age, otherwise it's it's unacceptable. Now it's great.

0:27:07 Eli: It's so sad. It's

0:27:10 Tom: Core is fucking amazing and people are like, it's different, different means scary, yeah.

0:27:12 Thomas: Yeah. Different means bad to so many people. And I, like there's stuff with that where everyone associates that with math and it, and that's the most noticeable. I think I can't really tell what's common core with some stuff. Cause honestly, I, I wasn't able to always pay attention in class. So I don't know how much I learned or didn't learn. I did very well in school.

0:27:29 Eli: It was probably bad, Thomas.

0:27:31 Thomas: Yeah, well, but there'll I love it when there's stuff that Phoebe will teach me, especially with sounding out stuff. She'll be like, oh, that's the, I can't even think of an example because I'm such an idiot, but it'll be, like, that long sound, and then there's the short whatever, and I'm, like I don't know what that is, like. I have no fucking idea, and, I'll be doing her little homework, and be, like, I'm sweating it out, like looking at it, like oh shit, I hope she knows what it is, because I don't know, I got a bluff, I, yeah, no, no I don't pretend, I just tell her, like I'll tell her hey, yeah I actually didn't learn this, because your school is better than mine was.

0:27:31 Eli: If it makes you feel any better, it probably was an unpleasant experience.

0:27:46 Eli: Mm-hmm. Right.

0:28:05 Thomas: I was just telling that stuff.

0:28:05 Tom: Well, Like, Okay,

0:28:05 Eli: Right. Yeah. It's the, it's the A looks for E thing, right? Which is like, if you have a word with A in it, look for the E at the end. And then he introduces himself, like my little cousin taught me. And I was like, oh, that's so cute. But I just remember being like, no, this one's broke. This one's a bad word.

0:28:08 Thomas: Yeah.

0:28:19 Eli: This one is here to trick you.

0:28:19 Tom: So, This is one of the few exceptions in the English language. Make a list, it'll only be a handful.

0:28:24 Thomas: Oh my God.

0:28:25 Eli: Yeah, right.

0:28:26 Tom: I what blows my mind is like when you start trying to teach kids stuff it apparent is something that should have always been apparent, which is that like good at teaching, especially teaching like these skills, like academics, like math or reading isn't something we're supposed to be good at without training, right? Like, why would we, if I want to teach this to a stranger, I've got to go to a four-year university, get a degree and get a certification. And if I Want to be a reading specialist, I'm going to get a separate corporate certification. It's a whole thing. If I want to do that with a stranger and somehow we all assume like, oh, I'll just be good at that because I already know how to do it. Right.

0:28:42 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Right.

0:29:03 Eli: I know it. Therefore I can teach it.

0:29:05 Tom: And that's a crazy thing that we generally self-suppose upon ourselves where it's like, Oh yeah, I'll just teach my kid to read. It's like, I don't know how to teach my kid to read. I think that's why I have like, I think the whole homeschooling thing feels insane to me. It's like, did, did you go to school to teach all the subjects? Like you just have like, right.

0:29:18 Thomas: Yeah. No, I got a pamphlet from a church that tells me how to teach them. It's okay.

0:29:27 Tom: It like the whole thing just seems, it seems crazy. It's Like, well, yeah. Like if I want to be a teacher for strangers, I've got to go to a school. I got to get a certification. I've Got to have practicals. I've GOT to jump through all these hoops. And we're like, yeah, that makes sense. Well, what if I Want to teach my kids? Oh yeah. You just do that intuitively.

0:29:43 Tom: Just do it by. And yeah, right, it'll be just as successful.

0:29:42 Thomas: Yeah. Do it however you want. As inaccurately as you want? Yeah.

0:29:42 Eli: Just fucking raw dog it.

0:29:47 Tom: Yeah, it will be just fine.

0:29:47 Thomas: Yeah, and

0:29:47 Eli: Yeah just do it. But don't worry if you do it wrong, we'll come, We'll send a note home about how disappointed we are in you as a parent.

0:29:55 Thomas: Then you'll take your kid out of school because you'll think the school is wrong.

0:29:59 Tom: So I just, I with the reading thing, read to my kids and I am not convinced. I know that the, like, you know, they say that's what you're supposed to do, but I really think that just drives interest. I'm not sure that that accomplishes much more than driving interest. And I am actually convinced that the teachers do all the actual work and that the kids just learn to read when they hit a point of their cognitive and emotional and otherwise development that they're just like, yeah, I'm ready to do that now. I, I am, I'm convinced that that's all it is. I'm sure I'm wrong, and I'm sure we'll get emails about how I'm wrong, but my experience of doing this with a couple of kids now is like, yeah, they learn to read when they just, like, wake up one day and they're like, Yeah, I read. And I'm like, All right, cool. Well, check that off a box.

0:30:24 Thomas: Yeah, sure,

0:30:39 Eli: Nice.

0:30:39 Tom: I don't know how it happened. No idea.

0:30:40 Eli: Read anything good? No. All right. It's interesting. Ended up with the kid to read in a hundred lessons. It's also weird. Teacher kid to reading a hundred Lessons is obviously, like, largely for homeschool parents, right? Because most people don't buy a book to teach their kid to Read because they assume that schools will teach their kids to Read, right, And if they don't figure it out there, then you go get the book. And one of the things that I've noticed in the book that's really interesting is that it's not catering to right wing nutbags, but it's not angering them like, they very clearly don't do any, like, examples where the genders are mixed up or wrong or the names are too ethnic. It's just, it's very interesting to watch a textbook be like, "Look, we understand a third of our audience are going to be like Jameel. Oh, no. Right. Right." And ask for their refund on Amazon.

0:30:42 Tom: Yeah, right? Oh, Yeah.

0:31:29 Thomas: That sucks.

0:31:30 Tom: That's terrible. Jesus Christ.

0:31:32 Eli: Speaking of reading, Tom, you actually got a recent request for some reading recommendations.

0:31:36 Tom: And yeah, so this has been this really cool thing that's kind of happening with Finn is Finn is I know I've mentioned it before, but I'm really pleased with it. So Finn is starting to kind of come into his own as far as wanting to sort of is really starting to kind of want to reach into his own, like sense of his own intellect, right, which is something that he's never really done before. But he's really kind of got a sense of himself there, which I'm very much trying to encourage. And so we're talking over this last weekend and he's like, oh yeah, you know, what about this book? What about that book? And he wants to build this whole reading list and he wants to read like the great works. And I'm like, no, don't read them. Most of those are no.

0:31:47 Eli: Holy grail.

0:31:50 Thomas: What a nerd.

0:32:14 Eli: Don't do that. No, don't do That.

0:32:16 Tom: I'm like, don's read the great work. So I was like, we'll 17.

0:32:16 Thomas: How old is this kid again? Find something better to do, man. I'm going to come out. Controversial take. Three bears. Stop wasting your time reading.

0:32:22 Tom: Oh my God.

0:32:27 Thomas: Little bookworm.

0:32:27 Eli: OK, well,

0:32:27 Tom: So So I'm, I get all excited. I'm like, dude, I can help you build a reading list. Like I will help you build a writing list of books that you'll love. That'll be interesting to talk about. Like that we can like really sink our teeth into. But he's also got ideas about what books he should read. And I remember being the same age and thinking that there was a list of shoulds that I needed to kind of check off. So he's like, yeah, I really feel like I should read it. And we had a whole conversation. He's like I really felt like I should be able to read the art of war. And I'm Like, no, no you should not read the Art of War.

0:32:28 Eli: Not not that.

0:32:45 Thomas: Yeah.

0:32:54 Eli: Nope.

0:32:54 Thomas: Gives a shit about that? Yeah, that's

0:32:56 Tom: I was like, that's a fucking knucklehead bro book that's full of like, it's a great book, but it's been co -opted by a bunch of knuckleheads, toxic bro shit nonsense. I'm like, people, I would be embarrassed if somebody saw me reading that book because of the assumptions they would make about who I was.

0:32:56 Thomas: Stupid.

0:33:09 Thomas: Yeah.

0:33:09 Eli: Also the Art of War. And, and I know this is going to shock people to their very core, is the Art of War, you know, that thing where a bunch of guys get together and fight each other to the death. It's not about the stock market, So the problem. So, fight from the sun in your opponent's eyes, right? Like, I know Andrew Huberman is like, what that means is you got to get inside a man's. No, he do it with your fucking it's that you're learning the opposite of what that guy who wrote the war book wanted you to learn, right?

0:33:16 Tom: Yes.

0:33:16 Thomas: Yeah, it's about war. Yeah Yeah Oh,

0:33:23 Tom: That's what I was telling them. Yeah, I

0:33:33 Thomas: No, when I buy my stocks I do it with my back to the Sun. Yeah It's really made a difference

0:33:44 Tom: I was explaining. I was like, look, man, it's like a lot of people read that book and then they try to, they try to take that book and turn it into like life advice on how to get, get one over on the next guy. But that book is not a bunch of like metaphorical life advice. That book is how to conduct war during a medieval time, like that is what that book is about, like, it is not about something else

0:34:01 Thomas: And that's just not super relevant to my day -to -day, let me say

0:34:08 Eli: Raw

0:34:07 Tom: Yeah I know I was like, fucking skip it. He's like, what about the Communist Manifesto? I'm like, skip it, you don't have to read it now he did read it. I was like, no, you can skip it, dude, you can Spark Notes that thing in about 10 minutes, it's big a deal, you could read it in 20, and that's why he read it, I think, because he was able to put it in the win column.

0:34:08 Thomas: Oh God, no. Okay Okay.

0:34:13 Eli: Read it no read it, baby first of all, you can read that thing in about 10 minutes fucking Industrial Revolution, Russian peasants were reading that thing, I think Finn's got a handle angles

0:34:31 Tom: That's what I told him I was Ike dude, you already know this, there's nothing in here that's going to surprise you.

0:34:37 Thomas: Want to ask you something, put you on the spot because I was made to feel so dumb. Actually, Lydia and I both I'll confess. Um, do you know who the coauthor of that is?

0:34:45 Tom: No idea.

0:34:47 Thomas: Okay. Eli knew it. I had no fucking idea in a billion years that there was a coauthor, the communist manifesto. I was like, we thought the question we were doing a trivia and we thought it was like oh, that's wrong. That's the question's wrong, right? That's It's definitely, definitely the question's incorrect, right? It's totally, totally not. There couldn't have been a co-author to that book this whole time, or else it's the same time traveler that's doing the shit with the Berenstain Bears. You know, they also put like a co- author and they got to Eli apparently because Eli's heard of whoever this is, but no, yeah, never

0:34:54 Tom: No, no idea.

0:35:11 Tom: Right. Yeah, right.

0:35:01 Eli: Right. Yep. Yeah. I'm working for big angles, okay. You know when you would have known you know when you wouldn't know about angles if you were ever at a party with angles because you know that guy brought it up constantly. Oh, you've read, uh, my book? No, no, it's mine too. Yeah, no. Right, um, I actually helped, uh, no, like a 50-50s, but I don't, no, I don't know where Carl is, uh, we don't talk a lot Sleepless

0:35:18 Tom: I have heard that. I just forgot about that.

0:35:20 Thomas: Heard of it. Yeah. Yeah.

0:35:38 Tom: By book, are you referring to this leaflet? This is a leaflet, right? This is, yeah,

0:35:41 Eli: No I love telling people to read Communist Manifesto because it's everything that a young person is starting to figure out is that it's in the book, right? They're like, understand, man, like, why don't we just share the wealth? And I'm like, you should read this guy in Russia, he kind of laid it, he actually put it into the context of history too, so you can see exactly what will happen. He's just wrong about the future because you're, you're your older brother sucks and we'll vote for Jill Stein. I'm sorry, it's

0:36:11 Tom: Well. So he read, uh, he finished 1984 and he loved it. Like he was like in love with it and he thought that was great.

0:36:16 Eli: A turd it's a page turner, it's definitely a classic I recommend was

0:36:18 Tom: Yeah. So I got same thing. So I've got, I've Got the list that we came up with this weekend in front of me.

0:36:24 Eli: He, like, wow, dad this is a lot like when people had to get a vaccine to help other people not die, this is just like that

0:36:31 Tom: This is exactly that. Yeah. So I try to come up with a list of, of books that was not overly long. That was accessible, but interesting that had some stuff. That's just fun to read also. Like that was Not just going to be like, well, that's a slog. I wish I didn't do. And put we this list together. So wants to read Brave New World. So I think if you read 1984, the corollary, you read Brave new world. He's reading Fahrenheit 451 right now. He is very unimpressed with it, by the way.

0:36:32 Thomas: Just like it yeah yeah

0:36:52 Eli: Sure Yeah.

0:36:51 Thomas: I like Brave New World a lot better than 1984, personally, that's just me. Never

0:36:59 Tom: I felt differently.

0:37:01 Eli: Fahrenheit 451 is like depressed older brother that never left home, like there's a lot in there but you, you got to dig to get to, oh, you ever read Fahrenheit 451?

0:37:09 Thomas: Read that one no never read it

0:37:13 Eli: Oh, old

0:37:13 Thomas: Wait

0:37:13 Tom: Uh it's fine I

0:37:14 Thomas: But I gotta say Brave New World is the one where the, the old person that horrifies everybody, right? I just bring it up because I actually think that that, that had kind of nailed it because have you noticed that celebrities, you wealthy people now no there really is going to be a massive divide, you look at pictures of old people, not even old people, you look pictures of people in their 40s from like 50 years ago and they look 10,000 years old, and now you look Tom Cruise is shooting Mission Impossible 12 he's doing sprints on a a runway. And he's, that guy is 60 fucking five or something.

0:37:21 Tom: Recall that, but Brave, it's been, I read it in high school, so I don't

0:37:29 Eli: People are super scary.

0:37:43 Tom: Yes

0:37:52 Thomas: And he looks, well, but, but I actually, it's that that's part of that Brave New World is they bring like, you know, an old woman from like the the, poverty areas of whatever. And people are like so shocked they can't even handle it unless I'm just completely making that up.

0:37:52 Tom: Well, it's all the adrenochromes

0:37:54 Eli: Right, yeah.

0:38:08 Thomas: I'm pretty sure that's part of that book.

0:38:08 Tom: No you that very well might

0:38:09 Thomas: And that, I really think that's an interesting divide that maybe that book kind of nailed that. I don't know. I just not become obvious until more recently, maybe. I don't know.

0:38:09 Tom: Be the

0:38:17 Eli: Think Brave New World is great for an intelligent young person because I think a lot of intelligent young people are like, man, if we just put the smart people in charge, everything would be great. And Brave New Word is like, maybe the people who think that smartness, one, that they possess the most smartness, and two, what they value is smartness are not going to be cash money solutions. And indeed, and indeed, if we look at, uh, Thomas's neighbors in Silicon Valley, not so great, the uh, bug-eyed lizard people have actually not done a great job with our democracy and all of our thoughts and feelings and economy and cars and fucking TV and the internet, everything else that they control at this given moment. All right, what else is on the list, we're some fun ones. Okay,

0:38:46 Tom: Right.

0:38:47 Thomas: That's fair.

0:39:01 Tom: All right. I just shipped him. Well, I sent him Beowulf.

0:39:07 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Where's the porn?

0:39:08 Tom: I sent a Beowolf and Grendel because I think he's got to read those two together, obviously.

0:39:12 Eli: Grendel's great, Beowulf fucking sucks ass.

0:39:12 Tom: Yep. Beowulf, you got to know it, though, right? Like, because otherwise Grendel won't make any sense. Catch -22, which I think is great.

0:39:14 Eli: Yeah Beowolf sucks. I can't, I'm a crazy person, I hate that book so much, every smart person, every smart person in my life is like, you gotta read Catch-22, and I, like a goddamn dementia patient, I'm like, all right, I guess I'll give it a try, and I'm hearing about the veins on someone's cheeks on page 110, and I'll never not be reading this book, of course, yes.

0:39:22 Tom: Really?

0:39:36 Tom: You're not wrong there. Slaughterhouse-Five? Okay, good.

0:39:42 Thomas: Your 17 year old son is so much more well-read than I am already. It's embarrassing.

0:39:43 Tom: All right. Well, he hasn't read these yet. This is a list that we're working toward.

0:39:47 Thomas: Nice. See, but he's looked at a list of them. So that's, yeah.

0:39:49 Eli: Absolutely, his Dad likes him to be fair, imagine what your dad would have said if you had been like, "Give me a reading list, dad," can

0:39:56 Thomas: Yeah wow.

0:39:58 Tom: Flowers for Algernon. I think it's fun. Or not fun, but I think it's worth reading. It's not that it's fine.

0:40:01 Eli: I say here's here's a bad thing about Flowers for Algernon, um, they drop the r slur constantly and it's

0:40:07 Tom: Yeah, it's a really problematic book, actually, it's got a lot of misogyny in it too

0:40:10 Eli: Got a lot of misogyny in it, uh, think there's some sexual assault in there, but the the bigger problem is that they're They're just sort of like, sometimes they come out like this.

0:40:20 Thomas: Raises an important question, Tom. How do you handle that stuff? Cause

0:40:23 Tom: I that's the thing is he's 17, so I want to have that conversation with him right, I actually, I do still like that book and I think you can read something and be like, yeah, there's some stuff in here that is not cash money to Elize use Elize term, but there are parts of this book that are definitely worth reading and I still think it's okay to be like, this is still an emotionally affecting book. I think it's a really emotionally affecting book that also is like, yeah, it's a product of a time and it was not a great time. It's got some, it's got some trouble spots, and I'm actually looking forward to having those conversations with him about it, you know, because he's 17. He's like, he's ready for it.

0:40:26 Thomas: Uh -huh.

0:40:35 Eli: Correct.

0:40:58 Eli: He's old enough. I think when you expose kids to problematic stuff, it's about making sure that they can handle it. And 17 is a good age to be like, hey, what do you think about that, huh? Not so great. I know that there are a lot of people talking about Lolita and the narrative around Lolita and whether or not Lolita should be taught. And I think there's a really smart way to teach Lolita because that's what Nabokov is doing with Lolita. And I don't think a lot of people know that, right? So if you haven't read Lolita, it's about a pedophile who's in love with a 14 year old but the whole book is just about him, like, getting, if for lack of a better term, jerked around by this 14 yearold he's in loved with, so that your reader experience is "oh man, this great guy just wants to be loved and she won't," be wait, she's a child, she is a child, and Nabokov wrote the book like that on purpose because

0:41:06 Tom: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, yeah.

0:41:49 Thomas: Really?

0:41:49 Eli: Yeah, you're supposed to feel that way, you're supposed to be in the, yeah to fuck a child right, the the mistake that people make is they're like that book's just about how fun it is to fuck kids and it's, it's not but if you if you're not reading it with the perspective of Nabokov, it can be read as like wildly sympathetic to pedophilia. So I, I think that kind of challenging reading for kids in context is like super duper useful and also prepares them for that kind of stuff, like prepares them for those like mind

0:41:51 Thomas: I always assume people from old timey times. I mean, it was pretty common to marry girls very young.

0:41:56 Tom: No, yeah But this is that. Yeah, it'S super duper not. Yeah, Yeah.

0:42:13 Thomas: Interesting.

0:42:22 Tom: Yeah.

0:42:22 Eli: Tricks that society does

0:42:23 Tom: And I actually considered for the briefest glimmer of a moment putting Lolita on his list. But I feel strongly like Lolita is a book that should not be read. It should be taught. Just read it and are not prepared to engage it like like academically, honestly, academically engage it. I think it's like, wow, that's that's a lot like it's just a lot to process. I do think that if you learn that book and you're taught that book, it's a fucking genuinely brilliant book. It's like a mind-blowingly brilliant book, but to just read like you would just pick up a book for fun and read, it's at odds with Lolita.

0:42:34 Eli: Yeah yeah yeah

0:43:00 Tom: And I didn't want to go down that road with Finn because if he decides to pursue a minor or a major in English, I don't know if he will or not, but he's kind of thinking maybe a minor in it. I'm like, all right, he might get exposed to it academically or at least have, I think, a little bit stronger set of tools to tackle that. That. So I didn't go down that road with him yet.

0:43:00 Eli: That's not what it's for, right, it is I think those yeah those trap books are good if you're being led, but you need someone to tell you it's a trap, right, like I also think Slaughterhouse-Five is that way, right? Because people are like, this book's weird and upsetting, he was, he was fighting a guy in the snow and now there are aliens and now it's the future and I didn't like it, right? And you're like, wait, how do you feel, and it's like confused and it's like little unstuck in time, right, and they're like, ah, you got me hey

0:43:26 Tom: Yeah. Yeah, right.

0:43:47 Thomas: So I got Arlo on, uh, Arlo started Mario Odyssey now and he's really into that one.

0:43:53 Tom: Well, it's been fun.

0:43:56 Eli: If mar, if, um, if Arlo's 17 and he's on Mario Odyssey 3, we'll have some words then yeah

0:44:00 Thomas: He might be, he might be so

0:43:59 Tom: Mario Odyssey. List has a handful more if you want to go through them. We can't if not. Oh, okay.

0:44:06 Eli: Let's fucking do it big

0:44:08 Tom: All right. Yeah. So, uh, I put animal farm on there because he liked 1984. So I was like, all right, like throw animal farm. I'm on there. He also read communist manifesto.

0:44:14 Eli: Sloppy ass metaphor.

0:44:15 Tom: So yeah, it's ugly. It's, but it shut

0:44:15 Eli: We love it. Is it going to hurt you when he's like, hey, dad, why have you modeled your life after Boxer the horse?

0:44:22 Tom: Your mouth. Shut your whore mouth. I just think I was like, I Lord of the flies. I put on there, I just think it's like, alright, he's in high school. If he doesn't get to it, he should get to it. Yeah, no.

0:44:26 Thomas: Funny. God, that's hilarious.

0:44:34 Eli: White people suck, obviously.

0:44:35 Thomas: I do remember That one, that wasn't, you know, in school I occasionally read read a book and that one does stick with you. I feel like that's a good, that's a good addition, yeah.

0:44:43 Eli: I like we've talked about this on the show before, but you all know that that's based on a true story where that didn't happen. Oh, this rules so hard. So this happened. Kids got left on an island, but they They were like native kids. So they just like fucking found some coconuts and hung out and took care of. Yeah.

0:44:51 Tom: Wait, what?

0:45:00 Tom: Oh, wait, I do know this. Yeah.

0:45:01 Thomas: Really?

0:45:02 Eli: And, and then the guy who wrote Lord of the Flies was like, well, that's not what white people would do.

0:45:07 Thomas: Wow, yeah.

0:45:11 Tom: Yeah, I also think it's like, I, the reason a big reason I put on there is for me, I'm like, this is a cultural touchstone book. Like it's one you just know because it'll get referenced like You can't watch the Simpsons without knowing it you know, right?

0:45:16 Thomas: It is yeah

0:45:16 Eli: Yeah. You, you don't want weird looks when you say piggy's head on a stick, you know?

0:45:22 Thomas: Oh.

0:45:23 Tom: Uh, Frankenstein, uh, his English teacher wants me to read Frankenstein. So I put that on there

0:45:28 Eli: Yeah. The monster is the person who assigns you that book.

0:45:29 Tom: Yeah um I put on The Dark Tower by Stephen King because I actually think that's a great book for A 17-year-old.

0:45:37 Eli: Fuck yeah. Bam. Yes.

0:45:41 Tom: That whole series, man. It's fucking great. It's just great. Yeah, man,

0:45:44 Eli: Walking dude. Walking dude's the best. First of all, Walking Dude's one of the best written villains ever, but he's also very clearly Matthew McConaughey. And so when they made the movie, Stephen King called Matthew McConaughey and was like, Hey, you know, it's based on you. Right. And Matthew was like I got it. You want me to do the me thing. Right?

0:46:01 Eli: And he was like please. Yeah. And he literally just does. Like it's so good. I know those movies are flawed for a lot of reasons, but Matthew McConnaughey, oh, they're so, I mean, look, Idris is great and Matthew is great. And then there's also a child and they're trying to be in, like, a tween comedy movie.

0:45:51 Tom: All right, all Right, all I haven't seen them. Are they worth watching? Oh, God.

0:46:15 Eli: But it rules. It rules hard.

0:46:16 Tom: All right. An antidote to the art of war, I actually like this book, How to Win Friends and Influence People. It's a great book.

0:46:21 Eli: That book, that is,

0:46:21 Thomas: You've talked You've talked about that before, you guys have done a whole bit on that one.

0:46:22 Eli: Yeah, this is the opposite douchebag

0:46:23 Tom: Yeah.

0:46:25 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, Hey,

0:46:26 Tom: Right. Yeah.

0:46:25 Eli: Trap, right? Which is, like. You trap douchebags into reading that book and then they hate it because it's about genuinely caring about other people.

0:46:33 Tom: And then this one's going to feel like, this is the last one on the list, The Road. I put on The Road, yeah.

0:46:40 Eli: Hey. Hey, Tom. No. Take that. I'm going to need you to take that off the list.

0:46:45 Tom: Do you know what he was like? He's like, I heard about Blood Meridian. I was like, you're not allowed to read that. I won't let you read it. I was, like, no, no.

0:46:50 Eli: Oh, well, I mean, look. If the choice was between Blood Meridian and The Road.

0:46:54 Thomas: Listeners, I would just like you to let you know, listeners, behind the curtain, I had a hell of a weekend. So Tom sent some articles to read for episodes and I didn't get to read them, and so he was like, and I'm saying, hey. Hey, I'll catch up. I can pick up on context clues. Don't worry. Just you and Eli start talking about it. I'll pick it up. No, you haven't read the article. Don't want to do it. And then I sit through 30 minutes of books I've never read and just sit here. Good thing.

0:47:18 Tom: I'm sorry.

0:47:19 Thomas: Good thing we didn't do that. Yeah, we don't want it.

0:47:19 Tom: I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

0:47:22 Eli: Next Week's episode is all about sequel, everybody. Tom's gonna be dead silent

0:47:22 Tom: So that was the list I put together for him.

0:47:28 Thomas: Yeah, we each pair off and do our co -interests. That'd be funny.

0:47:31 Eli: Right until my final taking off, cool.

0:47:34 Tom: My list I put together for him. I'm excited for him to these things. I'm curious to see how far he goes and whether he holds the interest, but it's been exciting.

0:47:41 Eli: If you see him with a podcast listener, if you see Finn walking around with a copy of The Road, snatch it out of his hands and be like, your dad wasn't thinking in your best interest. It's great, but it's not. Look, it is fantastic, it's incredible, it's one of, I think, the best, like, written books ever. Wish I hadn't read it. I wish nobody had read it. I wish it was buried under the ground a thousand feet at the center of the earth.

0:47:47 Tom: Oh, I think it's a good book. Do you not think it's good though? No, it's good.

0:48:04 Tom: I I did warn him. I said, look, I read this book and I wept, and then I gave it to your uncle's circle and he read it and he wept. I said I didn't cry, I fucking wept, so like, I just want to be real about what's happening. This is the end of your list, yeah.

0:48:14 Eli: Yeah,

0:48:20 Thomas: Jeez.

0:48:22 Eli: It's the Fry's dog of books. Here we go. I'll make it related. It's the fry's dog of books, right?

0:48:24 Tom: Right. There you go. Yeah. Yeah.

0:48:26 Eli: Which is like, that's a great piece of art and nobody should see it or hear about it ever. And the problem is when you describe it to people, they're like, oh my gosh, I'm going to go read it. And you're like I'm telling you not to. I'm telling you, not to it's like if tampering a nail into the tip of your dick felt amazing. Don't do it. I'm telling you not to do it

0:48:24 Thomas: Oh, thank you. That's a thing people have heard of.

0:48:40 Tom: Oh,

0:48:47 Thomas: Yeah stupid

0:48:55 Eli: Right, gentlemen, we leave actually the eclipse right now as we record this. I know it's a little after that when you're hearing it. But this week I had a dentist appointment, and the dentist yanked out one of my back teeth and held it up in front of the sunlight. It was a molar eclipse. All right.

0:49:11 Tom: My god, that was genuinely terrible.

0:49:13 Thomas: It's

0:49:20 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

0:50:00 Thomas: God, if it's okay to jerk it, just give me a sign, please. Gonna go burn my retinas