DOD124: Call Your Own Damn Pizza

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Tom: Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's not picking up the phone for anyone. I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:37 Thomas: Hello. Hello.

0:00:38 Eli: Okay, I didn't realize we were having Heath as a guest on this episode, but based on the intro... Heath, are you there? Are you on the Zencastr call? Tell me. You have to tell me. It's like being a cop.

0:00:47 Tom: Wait, wait. That's about what I expected he would say. That's about what I expect that he would. Yep, there we go. Heath not only won't pick up the phone, he won't send a message back either.

0:00:49 Eli: Yeah! Nope.

0:00:57 Tom: So that's good. Yeah. It's just screaming into the avoid.

0:00:57 Eli: Mm -mm. Not interested. I like to think that Heath... I know that this is unrelated for people who don't listen to our other shows, but I like think that there's enough people listening to this show that listen to the other ones. I think that he just has an incredible work-life balance, Right? Like, 2 p.m., he just shuts off the phone, he's like, "No, this is Heath's time," and I admire it so hard. Um, I also think that the same amount of hours that I am and he just sees my message and he's like, "Nope, don't care." So, it depends

0:01:11 Thomas: Yeah.

0:01:23 Tom: Yeah,

0:01:23 Thomas: I think it's more of that. I think it's just that one.

0:01:24 Tom: I think it's that one.

0:01:25 Eli: On my mood depends on how I feel, but in my head, in my head, Heathenwright, if you're listening, it's because you're out on a beautiful hammock enjoying a sunrise, breathing in, in the fresh morning air question

0:01:33 Thomas: Have you, I don't know. Have you ever had the things with Heath, and obviously, you know, you both actually work with him more, so you probably have more important interactions, but occasionally I'll have the thing with Heath where I text him and then he does Heath and he doesn't text back for, you know, several years, and then I have to be like, hey, I know you're doing your thing, but like, no, really this thing. I actually, yeah.

0:01:54 Eli: Mark on my own text reply

0:01:56 Thomas: Like I actually need you love

0:01:57 Eli: To my own quick text with an exclamation point, but

0:02:01 Thomas: The whole you bit that you do Heath, but in this particular thing, I actually needs you to just answer. Do

0:02:08 Eli: You guys know the only thing worse than trying to get an answer out of Heath via text message? Why, it's the Auto Ads. Yes, the Auto Adds. They're not picking up the phone. Maybe it's because the autoads have a great work-life balance. Maybe it is because they secretly hate you, and that's why you don't stay in the same hotel room when you go places together. But the, the only way you can find out is by heading over to patreon.com/dearolddads, where for as little as a dollar, you'll get a commercial-free extended version of every single episode, we got a little parenting story at the end of every episode for you when Tom decides to show up, and we've got monthly bonus episodes when do they come out? Only, only Thomas Smith knows, but, uh, you can get all of that for as little as a buck over at patreon.com/dearolddads.

0:02:27 Tom: Okay.

0:02:44 Tom: That's great. Just keep doing it.

0:02:57 Tom: Right, guys. So So I'm going to actually crib right from our Dear Old Dads fan page from Facebook. This is a am I the asshole that somebody posted? And I thought it was actually worth maybe talking to you guys about on the show here. So this is an am I? The asshole got a fair amount of engagement. And I've got I've Got a fair Amount of thoughts on this one. Am I the Asshole for Refusing to Call for Pizza?

0:03:02 Eli: Ooh.

0:03:17 Thomas: Yes. Oh, sorry. I just heard you talking. No, I'm just kidding.

0:03:19 Eli: Yeah.

0:03:22 Tom: Am I? The Asshole For Refusing To Call for pizza and telling my daughter if she wants pizza, she can call the place. My daughter's 15 and stays home by herself sometimes. We have a money fund for these days, so she can order some food if she really doesn't want to make herself dinner. Really simple. My daugther has anxiety and doesn't need meds according to her doctors. She was on the lowest dose and it was too much for her. Really, we work on confidence boosting and a counselor. Yesterday, my wife and I were not home my daughter wanted to order some pizza. The place she wanted pizza from only does phone calls for orders. Texted me and asked me to call the place and make the order. I told her no, and she can call them herself, that money is on the table, or she can make herself a sandwich for dinner. I came home, and my wife slash daughter were pissed I didn't make the call for her.

0:04:05 Thomas: Wait, Is that the same person? Okay.

0:04:08 Tom: Wife and daughter, I'm assuming, yeah. We're going to assume, this, again, Heath is not on the episode.

0:04:11 Thomas: Yeah. You

0:04:10 Eli: Sorry. This, this, comes from Utah. So yeah.

0:04:14 Thomas: Yeah,

0:04:13 Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Daughter's anxiety made it difficult for her to call. My wife is upset that I didn't help. Help. I think both of them are being over the top. I explained that there was food at home, she could have ordered from somewhere else, or just eat at home. They both think that I am a jerk, and I told her she needs to be able to make a phone call, or she's going to run into many other roadblocks. I also pointed out that not everyone has online ordering. So this is the, am I the asshole?

0:04:39 Thomas: Secret Answer: e the pizza place is the asshole. Yeah.

0:04:43 Eli: Get on Grubhub you assholes. I love this question because, because I think there's actually a really subtle and interesting conversation to be had here. And I also suspect that we're the three bears on it. Yeah. So, Tom, I'm pretty sure I know where you stand. Do you want to lead us off with the get your own damn pizza defense?

0:04:45 Thomas: Or get an app. Hmm. Yes.

0:05:02 Tom: No, I, I well, I sort of, but I think maybe from a different angle than you, than you you might imagine. Think I absolutely he is not the asshole, right? Because the stakes here are essentially zero. And I think that that's the most important part of it, right, it's not that she can't order food from anywhere else. She could get pizza from a place that has online ordering. She's got food at home to make a sandwich. She's not going to go hungry. So the stakes here could not be lower. And if you have and you struggle with anxiety, all of the research research suggests that you need multiple and repetitive opportunities to engage in the things that make you nervous and make you anxious in ways that have a reward at the end, have very low stakes, and that you can repeat over and

0:05:09 Thomas: I agree with that,

0:05:47 Tom: Over again.

0:05:48 Thomas: It's a good point, and what better reward than pizza? It's like the best possible reward board.

0:05:50 Tom: Right. She's the only one that wants this, so there's no other reward for anyone else. This is an entirely self -contained moment. Moment. And I think that like, there's no reason to play into something that needs to be worked through. She has a counselor. So this is also an opportunity for have this moment, to be upset by it, and then to approach her counselor and say, I didn't get the thing that I wanted. How can I learn to make that phone call in the future? Because that anxiety, like the only only thing that treats anxiety well is cognitive behavioral therapy over time, that's that's it, like

0:05:53 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. That Depends on the anxiety, but Yeah, sure.

0:06:28 Eli: Yeah, it depends.

0:06:29 Tom: I mean, that's what the research says. For long term, six months and out, cognitive behavioral and other therapies are more effective than other modalities, so Yeah, So, making an assumption here, because there's no additional information So, Yeah, so, think based on exactly what was written, there's no way he's the asshole here. She wasn't hurting anyway.

0:06:37 Thomas: For generalized anxiety disorder, okay. Yeah, sure, yeah. Yeah. Totally. Agree. I don't know if we're three bears, we be two bears and whatever the fuck, Eli, is because absolutely, I totally agree. Like all the reasons Tom said, I, there's not much I could add, except, like, like if you've given them other options, I, I, is one of those things where it's like, if facts were slightly changed, then I'm fully ready to punch this dude in the face. You know what I mean? Like if there's Any facts that are a little different where he's being a piece of shit and not accommodating someone who needs an accommodation, then I'm, I'm totally on board with fuck this guy.

But I think there's a very, I won't say it's a fine line, but it's, uh, you know, it's one of those things where it's like, there's it is a fine line between like, you're doing the right thing and fuck you, which is hard, you know, like, and I know with, you challenges with my own children, it's really hard. Like you agonize over a lot of these things a lot where you're like, I don't know. I think this is a place where I should kind of draw a line

0:06:53 Eli: Two Two beers and one.

0:07:11 Tom: Yeah.

0:07:42 Eli: Right.

0:07:42 Thomas: A little bit here.

0:07:43 Eli: Where do you hold the line? Where do not?

0:07:44 Tom: Right.

0:07:44 Thomas: Yeah. And it's like, it seems so high stakes because you don't want to be, we want to But sometimes, Tom, I think to your point, and maybe people are unaware of this, like there are, you know, not in every case, get, you know, get your own treatment. But when it comes to certain things like that, it is true that exposure therapy is the way to go. Don't have to do it on yourself. You don'T have to, you KNOW, like talk to a therapist, obviously talk to whatever. But may it be one of those things where maybe it sounds like the guy has put a lot of thought into it. And it sounds like the guy, like, has taken, you know, measures to not be, like Leaving her stranded and to accommodate other things And I just think that, like I think he's done enough of that where he's not the asshole I think this is fine

0:08:26 Eli: Here's my counter argument. And so I want to put a pin in the sort of like where to hold the line thing, because that's something that we are dealing with right now. Now, and Thomas, I know it's something you deal with quite a bit because Max is a toddler, and he is a spoiled toddler, and he's also neuro spicy. I don't know if you guys know this, but neuro spicy or not, no one will tell you what the fuck to do as a parent.

0:08:51 Eli: So like any given meltdown, you have nine completely conflicting pieces of parenting advice and only one good one, which is the one you want to do, right? Right. The one piece of advice that everyone's agreed on, which is don't hit your kid, is all you want to do when your kid is scratching your eyeballs out of your skull because iPad time is over. Right. I think there's a conversation to be had there about like where we draw lines and stuff like this. Here's my counter argument for against this dude. And before Thomas starts a fucking Ronald Reagan, ipso facto, ergo, X equals ergo sum, necessarily the asshole, words have meanings. I'm not interested in that, okay? I'm speaking from my heart. I'm a straight shooter.

0:08:51 Thomas: Yeah, yeah Yep Yeah, uh

0:08:52 Tom: Right.

0:09:29 Thomas: Ronald Reagan, what? I

0:09:36 Eli: Like the greatest president of all time, George Bush Jr. So, That in mind, I think if this is another disability, right? Right? Even another disability that is helped by doing the thing, right? So imagine that this daughter has difficulty walking and that the cure for this, right, I'm not using a specific thing, and that the cure for this hypothetical difficulty walking that this kid has is to do some walking. And there are conditions that that exists. Here are my two arguments this against dad's behavior. One, it does not seem like he checked in with mom about whether or not we were going to deny the kid this and use this as an opportunity to teach the kid a lesson. And when you are dealing with a kid with disability, you need to check in with your partner before you

0:09:40 Thomas: Don't know what's happening right now Fair,

0:10:22 Eli: Decide they're going to do the challenge of a thousand sons. Guns.

0:10:23 Thomas: Fair I think that's a good point point.

0:10:26 Eli: Two, you as a parent are not always, and I would say most of the time, not the person who should be pushing your kids slash working with your kid unless you're doing it under the direct guidance of a therapist. So in this situation, right, maybe, right. And this, this is where I would be wrong in the situation. If the therapist said, "Hey, you know, you, I know you've had this conversation about her phone anxiety, next time she asks you to make a phone call for her, I want to work with her on that. So let's try drawing lines and setting boundaries there." If a professional has set those boundaries, I think it's great.

I think way more often than is healthy, we as adults decide for our kids that they need to go through this thing or that they're ready to do a specific challenge that has to do with their illness or disability, when actually what they need is our love and support and understanding so that they can feel secure enough to take those steps on their own. So my argument for this guy being the asshole is one, didn't check in with his partner.

Two, it doesn't sound from the post like he had a conversation about the anxiety she was experiencing. It sounded from the post like he just said no, and if you want to do it, you've got to do it. As opposed to taking the time to saying like, "Hey, are you experiencing anxiety right now? Is that what's going on? I really want you to be able to work for this. Me and your mom believe in you, right?" Like, is there a way he could have phrased that?

And I'm not saying he didn't, right? Maybe he did, in which case I retract my asshole condemnation, right. But it sounds like he was just like, "If you want pizza, order it yourself," right, and then thought to himself, well, this will be a good learning and growing experience for her. But she and the the wife, which makes me again even

0:10:43 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah,

0:12:13 Eli: More think that he is in the wrong, both took away from this that this was an experience of him being unkind rather than setting her up to succeed. Yeah.

0:12:22 Thomas: Make some good arguments there. I think a lot of that is right. I think that maybe the place where I might kind modify it a little bit, like I agree with most of what you're saying, except that it seems to me that this was maybe more born of like necessity and time crunch and whatever, you know?

So I think there's a difference between what you're describing, possibly, which is parents, taking our dad or whatever, whoever, taking on the role of like, "I'm going to make you do a thing.

I'm going to start doing doing some treatment on you, you know, whether you like it or not, because going to make this work and I'm not going to get you." I think there's a difference between that and like, "Okay, not I perhaps have the time or, maybe slash a little bit of the desire to proactively accommodate you on something thing in a way that takes work from me, and I've given you other options.

For this particular time, if you want something else, you use those other options, you know," whereas like, I think that's a little bit different, because having to proactively make the call for somebody is like,

0:13:17 Tom: Yeah.

0:13:21 Eli: And look, if he had mentioned that he had other stuff going on and that's why he couldn't do it, he, right, says in the post is that he refused to do it because he thinks she can do it herself.

0:13:21 Tom: Yeah.

0:13:29 Thomas: Oh, was that the only reason I thought? Yeah. The whole reason she was there to begin with, I thought was because he was like working or something, right?

0:13:29 Eli: No, They're just out.

0:13:36 Thomas: Out. He's just out. Oh,

0:13:37 Tom: He's just out, let's assume he was playing golf or something. Let's assume he was doing something, it doesn't matter. Like, oh, like, but I would still say I would disagree with you, Eli, there. And the distinction for me is this is not based on a need. All of her needs are met. All if her needs are completely met, this is based on catering to a desire, completely and entirely, without has other options for food, so people don't just get every, in any circumstance, whether you're neurodivergent or whether you are, you know, if somebody, let's use your example of somebody who like couldn't walk, like let's, that same example, but they had a sandwich sitting next to them, like literally sitting next them, but they wanted something that was in the fridge, and it's like, like, I'm not required to, like, help you to the fridge just because you want to go to the fridge. Like, if you have other options, you need to be able to do some of the work to move toward the things that only you want, right? A real big distinction for me.

0:13:39 Thomas: Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

0:14:17 Eli: Here's Here's what I thing the need is, right. I think the need in that moment wasn't pizza, the need in that was support and love and encouragement, right. And when you're struggling, look, I haven't struggled with anxiety, but I have struggled with depression, and I have had people do better and worst jobs of encouraging me in that.

There have been lots of people in my life, especially when I was like really unmedicated and really symptomatic, um, have like tried to do the tough love thing, right, really cared about me, right. Like these are people who genuinely adored me and wanted me to be well and believed, based on sort of a general zeitgeist of truth, I that needed to take steps to make myself better. And what I needed in that moment was their support and their love.

And what I got in that moment was sort of the punishment, right. So for me, it's not that the daughter needed pizza, right, the daughter needed was to know, when you are hurting, when you are scared, when your disease takes over and you cannot stop yourself, right, or start yourself in this situation, I will be there for you, and from that place of strength and security, you can grow, right. Don't think people grow from a place of lack.

I don't think people grow from a piece of hurt and damage and sadness. I think people grow from strength, and I think a really good example of that is like if you've ever been to exposure therapy, and I don't know if either of you have, like, of the first things that exposure therapy does, right? Because when we picture it, or right, if we see it on TV, it's like, "You're afraid of spiders? Put your head in a glass

0:16:07 Thomas: Yeah.

0:16:07 Eli: Box with spiders," right. Like the major focus of exposure therapy, as I experienced it, and let me just caveat to say right now, I am not a doctor, I am NOT a psychiatrist, I know absolutely nothing, give your baby a whole bottle of Tylenol, but I will say that in the limited experience with, um, therapy I have had, it was mostly about creating a safe environment, right, safe, healthy, happy, happy environment from which I could examine the feelings and have conversations about the things that I was dealing with. Now, again, I am in a specific situation. One, I wasn't dealing with anxiety, I was deal with, I think what a lot of people today would call trauma. Um, I don't call it that because I'm awesome, but I had some stuff to move.

0:16:54 Eli: I yes, I was doing dealing with non -cash money experiences and needed to examine those non - cash money factors. Um, that is how I was dealing with it. But yeah, again, I think the, like there is a real danger to, I know this person who is suffering with an illness or disability needs to do this hard thing. So I will make them do it because I think it's for the best as opposed to, I am not the medical professional. I am NOT the one who can make the decision in this moment.

Let's do the thing, let's give them the help right if it means that they set back, even if it means infantilizing or babying them slightly, and then let's have a conversation as a family about how I found that moment difficult, and let's go to our medical professional and say, hey, this situation happened, my impulse was this, I didn't want to make the wrong decision in future, what should I do, right? And to be fair, again, give your baby a full bottle of Tylenol.

There There might be counselors listening to this who are like, no, you got to fucking put your kid in a headlock and be like, call a fucking pizza place, nerd. Like, I don't know that. I genuinely don't know that. And I don't want to pretend that I do.

Having But been from the daughter's perspective way more than I've been from the father's perspective, there have been a lot of times in my life, and this is also why I could be wrong, there have been a lot of times in my life when the people who loved me decided I needed tough love when what I needed was just love, when I needed love.

0:16:53 Tom: You had non -cash money experiences? Experiences.

0:16:58 Thomas: She

0:18:17 Tom: Yeah,

0:18:17 Eli: Right, and I didn't feel it.

0:18:19 Tom: I'm not going to push back hard against most of what you said, but I will a little bit in that, like the circumstances here just are not in my mind as big and dire as, like, "Oh, I've created this unsafe experience emotionally, unsafe experience." Experience, again, like the only thing at stake here is whether or not she gets exactly the pizza from the exact pizza place she wants. That's the stakes they are incredibly trivially low. That's

0:18:44 Thomas: Also Also could look in an app and go to a different pizza place probably Yeah. What's

0:18:50 Eli: Sure. Sure. Yeah.

0:18:51 Tom: What I'm saying, they literally could, like, we can't come up with a circumstance in our lives that is as trivually unimportant where the stakes are this low, right? I think that that's an important... Like, I would agree if it's like, "Look, I'm not going to fucking help feed you. Go feed yourself. You got to call and do this difficult thing, you, or you're not goingto eat today." Right.

0:19:12 Tom: I would be like, hey, that sucks. Like, we meet people's needs. Right? We meet.

0:19:12 Eli: We don't we Don't want being dads, being

0:19:16 Tom: Right, yeah. Yeah, like

0:19:17 Thomas: Being dead, what was that? Do we Okay.

0:19:18 Eli: Dad, I'll let Tom finish this

0:19:21 Thomas: Sorry.

0:19:21 Eli: Point, and then I'll talk about being dead.

0:19:21 Thomas: Yeah.

0:19:22 Tom: We meet our kids' needs, but I don't think we have to meet our kids' desires and whims. I don'T think we HAVE to meet those, period, right? Whether or not we choose to meet our kids desires and whims is we just sometimes can decide we're not going to do that for no reason, right. We might just find it inconvenient to do that today. Like not every desire is a demand. So the stakes here change for me the equation everything you said feels so wonderfully intuitively like psychologically and emotionally true except for I think it overblows like of by a lot what's really at stake here and if this this young lady who's 15, if this young lady is in crisis, is thrown into crisis I don't get that sense, because she can't have have exactly only the pizza she wants, right?

I don't get that sense from how he led off, like, doctors don't think her anxiety is bad enough to medicate. She tried a medication, and even that was too strong for what she's experiencing. She's working with a counselor. We work with her on self -confidence. Stakes here just are, like, essentially zero. Do I don't feel like she's going to be like, "Oh, my God, my parents don't love me." That just seems like... fantastically over the top to the description of the experience.

0:19:58 Eli: I don't know. It sounds like she feels very unloved based on the experience, right, based on the mom and the dog and

0:20:43 Tom: I think she's pissed because she didn't get what she wanted, right? Because 15 -year -olds get pissed when they don't get what they want.

0:20:47 Thomas: I I will Look, part of this premise of doing the show with an am I the assholes, I think we kind of have to take it for granted, otherwise it's hard, you know, then you can speculate as to it's fake or this is different, but, like, the fact that there's this strong reaction, I wonder if he's just kind of leaving something out, you know, like, it just doesn't, I unless she just truly sucks, like, it's hard to imagine being this bent out of shape over, like, like you say Tom specific, yeah over specifically this pizza, like, it's her birthday or some shit, I don't

0:21:03 Tom: Sure.

0:21:10 Eli: The mom joining her so

0:21:16 Tom: Me push on that, though, because I do think, at least in my life, I have met a lot of people who... I have a nice way to say this, so I'm going to say this in a way that's not nice, and I'm gonna ask for it to be interpreted charitably. It won't be, so whatever, but

0:21:32 Eli: What if you just didn't, then, Tom? Hey, Tom, Tom, it's the before time. It's before time. Here we are, Thursday, April 4th at 2:42 p.m., and we can just talk about dogs instead. My favorite breed is the pug. Oh, you've never interacted with our listeners before.

0:21:33 Tom: Right. I know. It's the before time. Here we are, but No, I Know.

0:21:47 Eli: Let me explain. Hey, Tom, they're not interested in that in that proposition you just made to them.

0:21:48 Tom: In in in a charitable I I know. I know, I know, but, like, I'm gonna say it anyway. And then I'm just like

0:21:55 Eli: Okay. Okay, I'm going to be in this time machine going to a decade ago.

0:21:56 Tom: Okay yeah okay You're smarter than me, you're smaller than me, I'm going to, I'm going to foreclose on my own house now. I don't know how I'm pay the mortgage, but, like, I, I have seen many families who cater, cater to things like this rather than ever challenging or pushing back. They catered to whims, they cater to desires, they read every ask as a demand, as a requirement.

0:22:02 Eli: Okay. Yeah.

0:22:02 Thomas: Yeah. Totally.

0:22:17 Tom: They they use, like, a, a mild anxiety as a way to sort of other people into doing for them. I've no families like this, right? There's an opposite side of this equation, right

0:22:17 Thomas: Oh,

0:22:28 Eli: Can just say it's me and Anna, Tom. It's weird that you're not just saying our names now.

0:22:30 Thomas: Yeah. No, I I think what's important to say is that I'm not saying for sure, I'm saying it's possible, because in the same way that I totally agree with you that that exists, I also very much know far more dudes that are the tough love, "you go fucking fuck yourself," call the thing, and where it's entirely possible that this dude actually sucks but is presenting everything in the best light. I I will grant that, I I think it could go either way. Yeah.

0:22:53 Tom: Yeah. I just feel like with anxiety specifically, it is something that, you know, you do need to feel safe. You do need To feel loved. Absolutely. I completely grant that. But is not something that does well being enabled. Just doesn't. We It's treat it. And I know you don't put your head in a box of spiders. You look at the word spider, right? And then you look at a picture of a spider from across the room. And it's a series of small steps. I'm very much aware of that process. But feel like in a scenario where the stakes are this low, if we can't challenge somebody a little bit on a scenario like this, it feels And then it feels like, well, I didn't get what I wanted, so I'm going to throw a fit.

0:23:07 Eli: Right.

0:23:32 Eli: Well, this and, is where I think the larger, more interesting question is rather than this specific dude. Cause again, we weren't there. We don't know the situation, But like, I's only like a little joking about like, you can just save me and Ana's names, because like one of the things that I have have struggled with since Max's diagnosis is just saying, oh, that's a toddler behavior, it's bad behavior, and I am allowed to deal with it as a disciplinarian, as opposed to this is a manifestation of my son's disability, right? And so, like, this is something that Anna is amazing at that I am really not. Right, she'll be like, this little piece of shit, right, she doesn't say it in front of him, but, like, you know what I'm saying, that's the zeitgeist, is like he's not supposed to be doing this, this is bad, right?

And I'm like, oh, okay, of course, because so often my brain is set in, your kid has a disability, don't ignore it, don't do the wrong thing, right? And again, as someone who struggled with mental health issues and had parents who handled it, for the overwhelming majority, really, really well, right, to live up to that. And so the, the thing that I think you're speaking to, Tom, um, though we need to get into a time machine to talk about it, um, and I actually don't think we need a time machine to talk about this, is, like, where do we draw the line with the people we love when they have legitimate struggles?

0:23:38 Tom: Right.

0:23:38 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

0:24:44 Eli: Right. Where do we draw those lines and where do we healthily put those places? I am, and I will say, because I think this is a good three bears in it, I am so hesitant to ever assume that I should be making a decision about someone else's illness. Um, I think I am overly

0:24:45 Thomas: It's hard.

0:25:01 Tom: But don't you think as a parent, I don't mean to interrupt you, but don't you think, as a parents, you're going to be required to make hundreds, if not thousands of small decisions like that without being able to run them past the psychologist?

0:25:02 Eli: Yes. Yeah. No, I'm Yeah. I'm calling myself out about it, right? Like, so the great example is, like, we'll talk to Max's behavioral therapist, right? I'll just be like, so this, and then, you know, it was at a 14 degree angle, and I'm wondering when he's hitting her, and, amazing, she just chugs Gatorades and makes hard eye contact with me the entire time, and she's like, yeah, man, that sucks, like, just tell him he can't do that. And I'm like, ah, yes, now when you say tell him he can't do that, he doesn't really have an Aristotelian sense of the self yet, so do I need to start with sort of, like, a Plato's, and she's like, hey, what are you doing, you psycho, right?

And, like, this is a real issue for me, so, like, I am only kind of joking that when you talk about enabling families, it's one of the things that I really worry about for myself, because Max is also wildly smart and wildly competent. Like, one of the embarrassing things that keeps coming up, so Anna takes him to most of his tests now. Now, A, because I'm busy, but two, because of this phenomenon, we will take him to get one of the 80 million tests you have to get your child in order for them to, you know, like, put a ramp in your school or whatever the fuck they got to do,

0:25:37 Thomas: Yeah.

0:25:39 Tom: Yeah. Right.

0:26:09 Eli: Right? And we'll be at test 79,854, and the person will be like, cool, can Max make a train out of blocks? And I'm like, he does not. He cannot build an automotive engine, my friend. I'm afraid. And they'll be like oh, okay. Hey, Max, you make a chain out of blocks, and he'll be, like, chain blocks, and then just fucking does it.

0:26:26 Tom: Right.

0:26:26 Eli: And they're like, yeah, no, he gets all five points on this. And I was like, well, it sucks. It's a sucky train. You know what I'm saying? The best example of this, and Anna ribs about this all the time, is I did not know he could take off his socks and shoes. And Anna didn't either, because every time my son started to go for his shoes, I was, like, please, sir, allow me. No, no. No, let me undo the buckles.

0:26:34 Tom: Yeah. Yeah, that do.

0:26:48 Thomas: Yeah. It's so true.

0:26:50 Tom: And that's the kind of stuff that I'm talking about.

0:26:50 Thomas: Oh, it is so true!

0:26:52 Tom: Right? Like, like I think that there is a tendency with the people that we love. That's why I want it to be interpreted charitably. There's an tendency with people.

0:26:52 Eli: I'm a... Well, that's not going to fucking happen,

0:26:59 Tom: I know. And I am guilty. I am absolutely wildly guilty of this. Like if If you're somebody in my life that I love and you are one unit of uncomfortable, I am flipping the earth asunder to try to make you happy. And that is not a good thing. That is a bad thing with some people. Right. Because you've got to temper that.

0:26:59 Eli: So...

0:27:19 Thomas: Argument, okay, might appeal to you, Tom, if we're using this analogy of the shoes and the socks with eli I still think if eli all of a sudden decided no kid put on your own damn shoes and eli is the one who has not prepared Max for that he's still the asshole you max is entirely unable to do shoes and socks because Eli, does it too much I think he would be the asshole if he's trying to like not do it for max in a way that's causing max trouble because eli you know it's his problem you know like he messed that up kind of thing

0:27:42 Tom: Yeah. Yeah, I would agree with that. Yeah, yeah. I would disagree with that completely. You again, I feel like this is a little bit different, but I know we're moving. We're branching out. So, yeah, I wouldn't agree with it completely. I think you can't just deep end people. Right. So I don't want to come across. I want to be sure I don'T want to COME ACROSS IS BELIEVING THAT WE SHOULD DEEP end people. I don't believe in that. I, I am not a fan of that kind of, like, sink or swim YOU mentality. That's some old school bullshit. That's just no good. It's just, it's just no, no good. But you know, I am very conscious too that like, when we love peoples, we can unintentionally, I think, or with really good intention and purposeful intention, love them so much that we disable them in

0:27:48 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah it is a little bit different yeah yeah yeah for sure yeah I struggle

0:28:27 Tom: Some way. Do you know what I mean? And and kind of like your point, infantilize, or just swoop in and fix every problem, and then, you know, all of a sudden they look up and, and they don't know how to do anything for themselves because we've carried all that emotional water for them for such a long time, and there, and other, other types of water for them, for much

0:28:28 Eli: Yes.

0:28:44 Thomas: With that I struggle. You know, my kids are, I think at least Phoebe is supposed to be brushing and flossing herself. She's in first grade, I don't remember when you're supposed to do that, but we've, we've had her do it, and it largely credit to Lydia because she does it so badly that I'm like, no, I have to do, like, I'll let her do do it, and then she, like she flosses like one tooth, and, you know, you can't get them, that little dexterity stuff, you know, is, they're just, it's really hard for them, like I'm like, Phoebe, get between all your teeth, and like, you can tell she's doing her best, but it's just, they can't process like that much, or something, and so I struggle with that where I just want, like, my, my inertia is like, I'll just fucking do it because I'll do it well, and her, her teeth won't rot, you know, like, but it's tricky. There's a lot of stuff like that.

0:29:17 Eli: Right.

0:29:28 Eli: Oh, that, that me with anything that takes any amount of time, right?

0:29:31 Thomas: Oh God, that's the other thing, hurry the fuck up, uh

0:29:35 Eli: Max can do the little worldwide wrestling coat thing. You know this trick? Oh, put the coat upside down. You put the quote on your kid upside down and then they, they just lift their arms in the air, and then there in a coat, and it fucking rules it's super cute, but you know what's faster than that? Me hog tying my son in his own coat, like he, a pig that done got away from the squatter.

0:29:58 Eli: So, like, that is I am just constantly having to let him do things. And also, like, he, kids with, um, ASD, like, really have a hard time asking for help, they deal with frustration. Not my fucking son, I'll give you a great example. We were talking about iPad time. I think a little earlier today or on last episode, whenever we were talking, back times a flat circle. Um, we were telling about iPad time. My son likes to watch YouTube videos. When he watches them from the beginning, he can do it. I've seen him do it. He touches the screen, he grabs the little dot, he pulls it back to the beginning, but

0:29:38 Thomas: No, what's that? Oh, Huh. Yeah yeah yeah

0:29:48 Tom: A long yep yeah oh

0:30:30 Thomas: Yep

0:30:30 Eli: He wants daddy to do it So he's like, daddy, and I'm like, oh, but I could just do it right

0:30:32 Thomas: Yep yep, yeah oh, I do do that one all the time, I have that same one actually

0:30:43 Tom: So offer this because another side of this too that I think is, is worth pointing out, Aislinn is an excellent baker. She can bake a cake from scratch, she can make cookies from scratch, you can do a lot of, she, pancakes, waffles, all of it, from scratch. He's excellent at all that stuff. When she wants a bagel, which requires it simply to be put in the toaster and then cream cheese put on it, she asks her mom to do it. She doesn't want me to do this, she doesn't, do it all, her mom does all. Haley has to do is walk downstairs, put the bagel in the oven, close the door, hit the two, wait for the timer, put cream cheese on it, that I think is wonderful and okay, right?

Because what they are in that moment, like that's not about Aislinn being like, I don't know how to make a fucking bagel right, a bid for her mom's attention every time. It's a way for her to say, I want this thing to still be this special thing that you do for me because it makes me feel loved. And even though I'm wildly capable at the age of 13, having just baked a cake of toasting a bagel, I don't want to. And I think that's okay too. I think it's okay to have that sort of tacit communication where you're like, yeah, you know what? I'm going to tie your shoes, man. I know you know how to tie them.

0:31:02 Thomas: Hmm yeah

0:31:26 Eli: He

0:31:57 Tom: I But like when I'm here, there's something kind of special about my, you getting down here and tying your shoe for you or whatever the case is. So dad's thing growing up was, was he would always have this this mantra, like when you'd ask him for something and be like, your legs aren't broken, but it didn't mean that he wouldn't help me out. Right. Like I want to give the wrong impression. Like he would help me sometimes, but every once in a while he would challenge me, but like, Hey, your legs are broken or like, you got two arms.

And I, I actually kind But no, I look at that, and I actually appreciate it because he did that in sort of moderation, right, didn't do it constantly. It wasn't like every time I asked for anything, or like he, he wouldn't do anything as soon as I learned how to do it. And there's a line that has to be drawn with our kids, I think, where once they learn how to doing something, my tendency in my mind is to be like, well, I'm not doing that anymore for you, right? Like, you know how to it now, that's off my plate, it's onto your plate.

0:32:09 Thomas: Take Yourself to the hospital. Oh,

0:32:51 Tom: And that's not good. That is not good, a middle right, space there. And then that space continues to sort of shift from the middle and more and more, more and more to their plate as they get older, but I still enjoy doing things for the kids that I know damn well they can do for themselves, because it gives me a chance to be, to show up and be loving in their lives, if that makes sense. We'll tell it

0:32:51 Thomas: My god I

0:33:16 Eli: Right

0:33:11 Thomas: I do have an example of like, exact, exact hospital joke I just made. When I was in school at some point, I did a dumb thing, and that I got, I, and what was funny is I wasn't even really that mad, but I was like kind of mad, and I was doing a, like, ah, I'm punching something. And this is the most me story, I punched the couch. I was, like, all right, I am not going to cause a whole bunch of trouble, but I am really upset at this thing. And, I'm in high school, I have got all kinds, stupid idiot brain stuff going, because I'm a high school dude, I got mad at something, I punched the side of the couch. It just so happened what was, like, hidden beneath the arm of this couch or whatever that I punched was like really not a good thing to punch, it was like a solid spot then, was right next to like a bit of a void. And so it

0:33:54 Eli: Yeah one of those old-timey beads that just made out of metal, or whatever ever, oh

0:33:58 Thomas: Was, yeah. And so it happened to be that the solid part was right on my pinky knuckle. And And it was like, it was one of those things where like, I'm going to pretend I'm holier than thou. I definitely punched walls when I was a kid because, you know, there's a lot of anger going on at that house.

0:34:07 Eli: Yeah white man, a white man, white man, they had a gym unit for, okay, like, I don't know if we're allowed to say this, uh, but ladies, um, you're a white men, and they tell you that we're learning square dancing, they actually take all the white boys in suburbia, and they teach us to punch walls, we have to punch through drywall, or

0:34:16 Thomas: Yeah. What's that? What?

0:34:34 Thomas: Point is, I obviously had to try to make up a story for this because this was the, the stupidest thing ever, and so I told told my mom that I fell. My dad, I think, you sensed instantly that that was bullshit even though I'm sure I was very convincing and he just was like not gonna take me to the hospital and I've never thought about it until there just now but I don't really know what his plan was this it was again when you have a when who is shitty in the way my dad was shitty I I'm wondering if my mom didn't exist what's the plan you know like is the plan just Fuck me?

Or is was he able to just be like, I'm not dealing with that? You, my mom existed, you know what I mean? I actually don't know, but he was like, "I'm not doing that." He was, he was too, he or upset or whatever or something, uh, the situation was too stupid for him to bother with. And so my mom took me, and you, mom did, I think the pretty normal parent thing of like kind of just, you know, ostensibly buying my story that I fell and hit my hand on something. And it's like, all right, you know, you probably, there's times where you know your kid's bullshitting, but like, what's, what's the best case scenario here?

0:34:40 Eli: Of course, yeah.

0:35:05 Eli: Right. Sure.

0:35:37 Thomas: You, you convince your kid to admit they did something really stupid and then you know

0:35:37 Eli: Yeah. Sat on a bunch of stuff as a teenager, so I get it, Thomas. No. I was peeing right and I was like, sure.

0:35:42 Tom: Ha. Ha ha, so he Just like, no, fuck you, you just go to the hospital. How old were you again, I'm sorry. That's

0:35:51 Thomas: And I'm He Just Uh, in High school. I was, I this was the summer, fuck, what year was it? It was the summer before junior year I think, so I'd be like 15 maybe, I don't remember, yeah. I don't, it is pretty insane, I, this is the kind of thing I just, yeah.

0:36:03 Tom: Fucking insane, like I, if my kids broke their hands punching me, they're kids, you know what I mean, it's like, all right, like we're gonna get in the car and like I'm gonna be unhappy with you, I can be unhappy and still help them get their needs met, like what the fuck

0:36:12 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that's the funny thing, there's so many levels of still being shitty but also taking your kid to the hospital, he could have just been give me a very stern like talking to or been like really mad that I did, but it was, was the kind of thing that my dad was, which is like, he just, if something was a level of like, this is fucking stupid to him, he can't deal with it, which, you know, I I've, certainly can relate.

0:36:20 Tom: Right, that's what I mean. Yeah. And

0:36:25 Eli: I

0:36:41 Tom: He didn't like go to your mom and be like, hey, can you drive him? I'm busy, you not driving him, that's

0:36:43 Thomas: Um, no, no. He didn't that. No, that that's no, that's not my dad's personality. It was, I'm not doing this. And then it's for the rest of the world to figure out how to make that work, work, yeah, no, it's the best

0:36:56 Eli: Gotta say, Thomas, as someone who deals with that impulse, you do extremely well in not following through with it and just voicing it, because on a regular basis Thomas will be like, that's fucking stupid, I'll be like, Yeah, we gotta, and he's like, all right. Right. Well, I just, for the record, it's stupid. And then under protest.

0:37:12 Tom: Cool, I need everyone to know

0:37:02 Thomas: Yeah. That's so dumb. Yeah. No, I this is I there are two methods I have of trying to not be as bad as my dad in this one thing. For one, I've worked very hard to broaden the range, or I guess narrow the range of things that I find too stupid to deal, deal with. And, uh, you know, it's not zero. It's absolutely not zero, but it would never be something like this in a million years.

0:37:13 Tom: No

0:37:33 Eli: No, of course. Absolutely not. In a million years.

0:37:35 Tom: An injury

0:37:35 Thomas: And no, yeah, I just want to make very clear, like I, cause I, I, but I also want to own that. I very much have this component. Obviously I don't want to pretend that I oblivious to the fact that I very much, there are things either because of my dad or whatever the commonality is. Um, I just, there are things that were like, that's too fucking, I can't deal with this. It's so irrational that I'm like, this sucks, but but it would never be something where someone else really needs me. It would be like, be some other bullshit. That's like, it's not going to matter really, you know? And so that's the two ways I've tried to limit it. For one, I will try to work through it. And for two, I try to make sure that the things that really are stupid in that way for me are not anything where my kid needs me, like that's not going to be it.

0:38:13 Eli: Right. Exactly. There's no scenario where you're like, no, I, I abstain.

0:38:19 Thomas: Yeah, but I'm

0:38:19 Tom: You two hands, the other one's not broken, you only need one to drive. Oh,

0:38:23 Thomas: Yeah, I'm really dealing with the Phoebe and, just total switch of subject back to what we were talking about, I, one decision I've made, I think I've already mentioned this, but um, happy to get your thoughts, like honestly, if you think I'm doing something wrong, feel free to call me out, but Phoebe's anxiety pattern is so obvious and so consistent that, uh, and this is something I kind of, you know, I have to remind Lydia about a little bit, is I don't tell, tell her stuff before it's going to happen. Like, just don't tell her, Hey, you, Oh yeah. Well, Tom, I thought you agreed with me on this on one thing where it's like, Hey an example. This week was, I guess, March madness. I don't pay attention to that anymore. Although I did watch that women's game. That's fucking awesome. Iowa one. But anyway it's March madness, so her school was doing some little thing that's like Hey, we're all, the kids are going to play basketball and you know, they're first graders.

So that's, it's not easy to play basketball when when you're in first grade, I don't know if they had like shorter rims, smaller, but I'm not sure how they did it. But I the information and maybe this, this probably wasn't Lydia. This might've just been her teacher or something, uh, Phoebe's teacher, but the information was relayed to Phoebe that, Hey, sometime in the future, that's not now you're going to have to do a new thing you're unfamiliar with, which

0:38:50 Eli: Right, right, right.

0:38:51 Tom: Really wow

0:39:32 Thomas: No upside to telling my daughter this. All she will do is spiral out in the most weird anxiety, OCD, something that you've ever seen, stress herself to no end. And then the end result is she'll most likely just do the thing and be fine. Like or if she doesn't, she doesn't like, that's the other thing. If she can't do it, she can't do it. The part where we put her through days or weeks of anticipation does nothing for her. Like, it does not help it. All it does. She, she spirals so hard that whenever there's a thing, I just am like, just don't tell her, she's a kid. She's in, in first grade, someone can tell her, hey, you're now playing basketball, that's fine, that's not, this would happen in school all the time, that's what school was for, us people just tell us to do shit, we had no idea what was happening, um

0:39:58 Tom: Wow.

0:40:15 Eli: The problem is there's the two versions of that kid, right? There's the kid who needs a week to prepare, and then there's the kid who will spend a week fretting about it and so they're just, just it's, there's no right answer, yep.

0:40:18 Tom: Right. Yeah. This is this is one of those things that's so individualistic because I like got kids that deal with anxiety as well and like very much need is to know ahead of time, like if you spring something on them, like I were just to tell Azen, and it could be something, it doesn't matter, you know, it could be something like, hey, hey, we're mean, I'm thinking of the most inconsequential shit, like, we're gonna go to the store now. Now is not when you tell her. We're gonna go to store in an hour.

0:40:27 Thomas: Yeah. Yes. Yes, interesting

0:40:53 Tom: To know ahead of time what's going to happen. That is way more calming. It, on her like, hey, I need you to get your shoes on, we are going to go to a store. Like, that's a problem. Because in her mind, all of a sudden, she's like, well, fuck, you know, I am not dressed and my hair looks stupid and I didn't brush my teeth and you know, like she's got like 10 reasons right now why just getting your shoes on and walking out the door is a problem, I I

0:40:45 Thomas: Really huh wow right Sure. I think there's age, there's, yeah, I think age counts, and also, is this more an ADHD thing, right, or you think it's anxiety you're saying, okay

0:41:23 Tom: I, this is definitely an anxiety reaction from her, like, yeah.

0:41:25 Thomas: Okay. Gotcha. But it could be related because like I think, yeah and so I think it may be different yeah there could be different for, I, I think you're totally right, Tom, that's individual because it's very much not the case with Phoebe, it's a hundred percent just makes it worse for her. And maybe with age that'll change, where if she learns a way to more, um, plan for something, you, like maybe that'll change. But you, like right now, I'm telling you, it's so bad. And if something sprung on her, she's more or less fine. Or again, she may not be fine, but one thing's for sure, giving her time ahead of time to stress about it doesn't change that. It doesn't help. It It only is bad.

0:41:25 Tom: For sure, yeah. They're often comorbid, right, yeah. Yeah

0:42:01 Eli: Yeah.

0:42:02 Tom: And and that's, and part that's of that whole, you know, we've talked about a lot on this show, like, and Eli, I know it's something like you struggle with too, because there's... there's no answer for, for like, how do I X with parenting, right? Like, well, what book should I read? Well, you know what? I don't know. If that book happens to match who your kid is, that's the good book to read. You oh, the studies show this. Like, wow, the show's probably 89% effective and the 11% might be your kid. You everything comes down, in my strong opinion, everything comes out of that. It comes down to just like really spending that time being like, hey, I tried this, it didn't work.

I tried the other thing, it worked better. Great, then that's what my kid needs, you now, 100%. Because, yeah, Aislinn from the time she was little, though, man, when she was like six, you don't spring shit on Aislinn. Like, you do not spring shit out of Aislinn. Like, that's just not. And Donovan, too. Like, you don't spring shit on Donovan. Donovan's a little more mellow, for sure, than Aisline is. Like, a lot more mellow. But he certainly does better knowing in advance what you're going to ask of him later. So, would not say to some the kids in my house, like, "It's time to go brush your teeth. Teeth." I would say like, "Hey, I need you to brush your teeth before bed.

Bed's in an hour, make sure to give yourself enough time." That is structurally, that works for them so much better, and that's just who they are. With Finn, I could be like, "Finn, no time to put on your shoes, let's walk out the door." He'd be like, "Cool, awesome, dad," and he'd be

0:42:02 Eli: Right.

0:42:10 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, interesting.

0:43:18 Eli: Barefooting

0:43:18 Tom: Like out the door, this fucking giant hobbit feet. Yeah, he doesn't give a shit, yeah

0:43:19 Eli: It, yeah just raw dogging it, yeah. I, I am a planner as well, and again, this isn't a pathology for me, it's just my preference, which is like, if you schedule putting me on the rack and putting the pair of anguish up my ass from six to seven, I'm like, "No, brum, absolutely." Okay, pair anguish, and then seven, I can do my work again. Okay, great, I'm good. Good with it. The, the other thing is, like, I can't have normal emotions because I've been in therapy for so long that I have therapy emotions, which is also, it's just unbearable in any scenario where there's conflict. Right? So, and I'll be like, "Hey, we're gonna go to the zoo today," and I'm gonna be like, "Oh, wow, so I'm, I love that, that's such an exciting opportunity for you, and the ways in which I can see that benefit," and she's just like, "Oh my god, say you don't want to go to the zoo, just say" save me "the nine point fucking powerpoint," and just say no. Well, no, because I would want you to communicate. No, you don't, stop it.

0:43:32 Tom: Oh My God No

0:44:13 Eli: I'm killing I'm

0:44:13 Thomas: This takes

0:44:14 Tom: No, nobody likes this What is happening, yeah

0:44:14 Thomas: Too long this takes too long yeah

0:44:17 Eli: You email. Nope, the email would be longer. You know what, it's fine, I'll see you when we get home

0:44:20 Tom: Yeah Three words. You, like, "Fuck the zoo," that's all you gotta say. Fuck the zoom, not doing it. Yeah

0:44:21 Eli: Yeah all

0:44:24 Thomas: Yep

0:44:32 Eli: Right, gentlemen. Gentlemen, before we go, I think I have what is the ultimate dad joke for this show. What's the best part about having a podcaster for a dad? They always give you sound advice.

0:44:47 Tom: That's terrible. This is terrible.

0:44:50 Thomas: Too true it's too real I

0:44:52 Tom: All

0:44:56 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

0:45:36 Tom: Let's assume he was doing something. It doesn't matter. Like, oh,

0:45:39 Eli: Want talk some shit about Thomas now Lydia is listening. Hey, Lydia. Lydia, how it, how big is it, Lydia? Insert audio here. How big it is. Unless it's a good thing, then don't do it then do it lie yeah I don't want to hear. He's got some tremendous, tremendous three-inch dong that I've gotta feel jealous of. Oh, we have fun suburbia, and they teach us to punch walls. We have to punch through triath wall, or we're not allowed

0:45:40 Tom: Always, always.

0:45:51 Tom: But don't. Yeah, I don't want to feel bad about myself. No. Yeah.

0:46:03 Tom: When when

0:46:09 Thomas: Fuck are you talking about? Is this just

0:46:11 Eli: To go back to clay. It's a bit, Yeah I'm I'm doing a bit.

0:46:11 Thomas: An elaborate joke? I don' t, I

0:46:13 Eli: I'm just doing a little bit.

0:46:13 Tom: It's a bit yeah white

0:46:13 Thomas: Don''t, yeah, sorry, I think I don't have the frame of reference for that bit. I don't, what's the, what, is it a race thing?

0:46:17 Eli: Punching walls. White guys punching holes in walls. Have you not heard of this?

0:46:19 Tom: Guy's punching walls yeah yeah

0:46:20 Thomas: Really? What, what? Oh, okay. No. No. I just thought all dudes did it.

0:46:25 Eli: No? No?

0:46:26 Thomas: A Is specific racial component?

0:46:29 Eli: I've heard of it. You know what? I don't know. I believe all men can punch walls, and I don...

0:46:30 Thomas: Oh, no. This sounds like you guys both know a thing that I don't. So no, no, I'm not, I've not doing a bit either. Like I've genuinely never heard of this. So I, sorry. So that sounds like you both have.

0:46:40 Eli: Cut it, podcast listener, but Thomas just spent 26 minutes explaining that he didn't think Jews were strong enough to punch walls. I don't know what he meant by that, but just...

0:46:48 Tom: What

0:46:48 Thomas: But anyway, the