DOD88: Dadbody Issues

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:29 Tom: Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's raining men. I'm Tom Curry, and I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:37 Eli: Okay, I guess this is the episode where we talk about 9-11, everybody. First of all, I want to apologize for what Tom said. It's been a rough week.

0:00:38 Thomas: Oh, wow. Oh,

0:00:40 Tom: Oh, fucking hell! God damn it! Okay, so we're attacking accuracy now. Okay, fair. Yeah. Yeah.

0:00:51 Eli: That was the intro to last week's episode, Tom. God damn it, stay current. I got to keep it fresh. I'm on my toes.

0:00:58 Tom: All right. So this week, I think we wanted to talk a little bit about, you out and male body image kind of stuff, just generally kind of that sort of stuff. And I want to start this off as who spends a fair amount of his time working out and has placed that as a value.

And I'm watching my boys, Donovan and Finn particularly, really both move into like a deep interest in working out and physical fitness and then watching both of them in very different ways grapple with their body issues and how those sort of like ridiculously unrealistic standards of what the sort of ideal masculine form or shape is and how they're sort of intersecting with that.

And then I also one of the things in this conversation I do want to make sure we get to is like, who is that body image for? That hyper masculine body image that I think is like prevalent in culture. I also want to talk about like just where it comes from, but like who that is meant to serve. Because I I think there's... There's a bunch of interesting shit in there so um kind of what I wanted to talk about today and I'm curious where you guys just preliminarily fall on the on the physical fitness the body image kind of spectrum.

0:02:02 Eli: Oh, So is there a negative one on the physical fitness scale, can we start there and Then I'll be hey, you know, we always take like the extreme opposites, I Think we can do that this episode too, right? Which is Tom's in the gym all the time, Thomas does the hockey thing, uh And sometimes when I have to reach for a glass of water, I just don't Bother, so Sort of take this from all sides, but it's interesting, I think

0:02:23 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Aren't

0:02:33 Tom: But That's Not true, I've known you for a long time, like you, you have a long history Of Working Out And Yeah I Know That It's Not

0:02:42 Thomas: You a Secret Worker outer Person Like You're

0:02:44 Eli: I Am A secret worker out Or It's true It's It's Terrible, I I I hate to admit it, I what did I, oh, oh, I saw a listener in the gym the other day and I felt like I had been, there's no word, like I would rather have been seen praying at a church, right? Than lifting. Cause I was the worst.

0:02:46 Tom: True Yeah, oh

0:02:57 Thomas: Outed

0:03:00 Tom: My God There's a listener, hi, I'm gonna masturbate I'm going to masturbate To distract Him I

0:03:04 Thomas: Yeah

0:03:04 Eli: Yeah. I was like, no, I swear I'm only here to, to take photographs of men's butts. I'm just taking photos. I'm jerking off under this weight. I promise. I promise it was the worse cause cause, I was squatting too. So it's like, it was like the most like gym bro -y.

0:03:07 Thomas: Harass Women Yeah Quick Shit My pants That'll keep my image

0:03:19 Eli: Yeah. Guys, I just collapsed under the weight to save face. I was transported here by an evil genie.

0:03:22 Tom: Can't Can't deadlift and tweak my nipples at the same time, what do I do, you, sorry

0:03:32 Eli: Next rap, obviously, Tom, come on.

0:03:34 Tom: Dumb, dumb Question Dumb

0:03:35 Thomas: He's Thought

0:03:35 Eli: Dumb, dumb. Yeah, but no, like, it's interesting because, Tom, I definitely want to hear about your journey, but my journey, weirdly, with my body is that I was a chubby kid, had some really not healthy ideas about my body growing up, and then I I sort of was like a chubby slash normal sized person, right, a fairly normal bodied person, until my dad passed away. And then sort of all ideas about taking care of myself faded away as part of my grief.

Like the way that I dealt with my grief is I was like, my dad was big and strong, my dad took care of his body, my dad died suddenly, the way I am going to like Freudianly rebel against the emotions of this is I eat Chinese food two times a day, right? It's just like, I, I have no interest in taking care of my body and I got really big.

And then I sort of confronted, which I don't think you or Thomas have confronted, which will be interesting to talk about, I confronted like the health problems that come with getting really big for the first time in my life, right? Like I remember the first time a doctor was like, hey, that is because of your size. And I had to be like, oh shit.

It right, and like, I want to be very clear because I know that there's a real history in medicine of like making bad choices when it comes to telling people that things are because of their size, my doctors were were accurate and telling the truth, I am not, I'm not saying, right

0:03:35 Thomas: Of that uh For

0:04:58 Eli: That doctors are always right or that this has always been the Case or that there isn't bad ideas about that in medicine, in life in general, I'm saying for me, I did bring consequences onto myself, my with size. And now I sort of maintain a different shape for my body for health reasons, which I think will be an interesting dynamic to bring about in this conversation.

0:05:00 Tom: Right

0:05:18 Thomas: I would say that uh kind of unique about my situation is um my life way too skinny for most of it, like just, I was the super bone skinny kid, you know, that I was always really uh strong, but like, I I just looked really, you and skinny.

So I got picked on for that, you and then as I started to size up a little bit and, you know, in wrestling and do sports, in a way that you would think, oh, okay, I can have some, some positivity now because I've got muscle, I'm looking good and whatever. You're at that age where you effortlessly don't have like a ton of body fat, boy, do I miss that.

That happened, I I already had had pretty, well, I should, I guess severe wouldn't be the medically correct term, but, know, moderate scoliosis that is very, you to the eye. And so I've always been incredibly just, I felt shitty about that my whole life. It sucks.

It's, it's a very like, just, I don't know, just a bad hand that I've been dealt, that I have this awful scolosis that that truly, in my mind, is every minute of every day, I'm consciously aware of it and feel bad about it. Like at all times, it just sucks. Like it's not a fun thing. So I've never really gotten to enjoy what might otherwise be a nice, young, healthy body.

Like they always say that when you get old and you look at old pictures and you're gonna really miss that time. And then you're going to feel like, oh, at that time I was still worried about some other component of my body, or I didn't think I was fit enough then.

And, you say, lately I at least really been trying to make the most of and enjoy the fact that I'm still very athletically capable and able to play hockey at a, at least, least relative to, you know, the beer leagues I'm in, at a pretty fun, competitive level. And I'm I am trying to do my best to like mentally like enjoy that. You know, that won't always be the case. At any time, I could have an injury that doesn't allow me to do that anymore. More.

And someday I could be, you know, too old to be able to play in a way that's, that's quite where I want to. So I am trying to make that effort now, but my body stuff has always been around my scoliosis and not so much around size or anything like that. So I don't know if there's going to be, per se, like similarities there, or, or if that's kind of a different thing, or

0:07:21 Eli: I think it's really interesting because I think think something that gets left out of the conversation a lot is disability, right? Whether it be physical or mental, emotional, like whatever the case may be. And so I think that'll be a really interesting angle to take on it because disability for the most part, when it comes to like the idea of the male body and the male ideal, quote unquote, is almost invisible, right?

0:07:42 Eli: Or like, you know, something to be right.

0:07:42 Thomas: It'd Be something cooler. Like you miss an arm and then you get a bionic arm or Something And Then That's

0:07:47 Eli: And, but it has to be overcome. Exactly. That's what I was going to say is it's, it's always something that's overcome. So I'm, I'm absolutely interested in talking about that angle. Tom?

0:07:48 Thomas: Cool, yeah Yeah

0:07:50 Tom: Yeah Right Yeah I've kind, I've of had a bunch of ups and downs, so when I was, when I was young, I was heavy. When I was young, um, always heavy and always got picked on, I got got bullied, and, you know, it was just, not you know, big chubby face, big, you know, chubby body and belly, and just not in good shape, not, wasn't much of a sports kid, and like I just didn't do a lot of like outsidey sports stuff. I was just kind of like, you know, a heavy nerdy reedy kid, you know, that's like who I was. Um, until about my sophomore year of high school, and I was getting bullied quite a lot, um, my freshman and sophomore year, high school, and I just kind of got fucking sick of it. Um, my junior and senior year, I started lifting weights and running and wild, crazy calorie restriction, like orthorexia like style calorie restrictions. So I dropped weight, I was like 155 pounds. I was very strong. I was in great shape. Um, like none of it was for good reasons, it was always like vengeance like based reasons.

0:08:48 Tom: Like I was tired of getting picked on and I was going to be be the bully now. Cause like, fuck that. I had just gotten bullied for a couple of years and it wasn't, it pleasant. So it was kind of fucked up. Then I went to college and like, once I was in college, I immediately stopped working out. Like I was, I was in school full -time. I was working a full-time job. And like, one of the things that I think is just true about taking care of our bodies and working out is like, that is very often in a that a luxury of your financial position.

0:08:48 Thomas: Yeah

0:09:18 Eli: Absolutely. Yes.

0:09:18 Tom: And we don't talk enough about how important and real that is. I was like working full time, full time job, 45 hours a week. I was going to school and college full time. I did that for four years. And all that work that I had done for the prior two years kind of fell apart. Like it kind of just kind of fall apart. Don't know. I didn't know how to do it.

I fell apart, I was young enough that it didn't make a huge difference, but I gained weight. I lost like that base level of like just easy fitness that you can have when you're very young that you later in your life have to work so fucking hard to chase, like so hard to chase. And then, you know, my weight just kind of gradually crept up, but it really got bad and I was pushing, I was very, very close to 300 pounds by like 2012. And that's because I had spent 2008, 2008 through 2012, working, again, you, least 60, sometimes 80 hours a week, sleeping in my office, eating fast food all the time, under incredible stress. You, was just bad. It was just like an awful situation.

I will say, like in 2013, I made a very conscious, and this is like kind of a big deal, it changed my whole life, big deal, I made it very conscious choice that I was just going to leave the office, stop working so fucking much and prioritize my health in a way that like everybody else could go fuck themselves. I was gonna go do this thing. And it ended up being CrossFit, which I thought was fun, personally, like I don't want to be like the

0:10:40 Tom: CrossFit evangelizer, but I just thought it was fun. I liked the community. And honestly, like that whole experience changed my entire life. Like it really did. Like my life is different in deep and fundamental and important ways because stopped like being a guy who just worked. I stopped Being a guy Who like literally did not care at all What my clothes looked like Because I hated my body anyway And I couldn't imagine That anybody would want to see it So why bother putting clothes on it That were nice Why wouldn't even I like I used to shave my head Because it was like What fucking difference does it make I'm fucking hideous

0:10:40 Thomas: We

0:10:54 Eli: Mm -hmm.

0:11:09 Thomas: We Did this. We did this one Too, like, we, you and I, Tom, Had kind of those similar impulses.

0:11:11 Tom: Yeah Yeah Yeah I was like I'm fuckin' hideous anyway It doesn't fuckin' matter You know I had really bad self image And self esteem him. I was like, my job as a person is to produce and to work. And that's the only thing I'm valued for. And then I started working out and I started making all these friends and like, I started to get much more fit. I started zuz a lot of weight. I lost like 80 pounds. And I zuzt to be fit. Zuzt to go and zuzulize with people who all of a sudden they did value me. And I was able to move my body and these things all became interconnected and intertwined with one another. I had this real sense that like, okay, this has to be who I am now.

0:11:48 Tom: Like I have to hold on to this feeling because this feeling is better. It's healthier. It's healthier, not just for my body, but like, I like who I Am. I like the way I socialize with other people. I liked the way, like my mind feels, I feel sharper as a person because this is part of my part of my daily life. And it's been 10 years and I've stuck to it for that 10 years. So I've stuck to the habits of trying to stay fit in the ways that I enjoy being fit for those 10 years, but it's an and down. It's been an up-and-down in huge ways. And there's been a lot of emotional shit that's been part of that. Actually I strongly believe that I never would have left my ex -wife If I hadn't joined CrossFit, never. I never would have like had that feeling that like I could have a body that was valued by other people and that like, I could move through the world in confident ways.

0:11:23 Eli: Mm -huh. Yeah. Mm hmm. Right.

0:12:37 Thomas: All all of a sudden, people are skronking it to you. You're not even yeah. It's a whole new feeling, hashtag

0:12:40 Tom: Yeah. I, I like, Like I just was moving my body so much more confidently.

0:12:46 Thomas: Skronky, it to Tom. Let's

0:12:49 Tom: It was such a big deal to be valued for more than just what I could produce. And I became aware that people could value me for more than just that. Just what I can produce. And that was like this like revelatory moment that like I could be somebody that looked nice. I could play volleyball. I could go hang out.

0:12:49 Eli: Yeah, right.

0:13:10 Thomas: Not go crazy. You can't play

0:13:11 Tom: I can't play volleyball, but I wouldn't Get wind. It, I would do a bad job, but I wouldn't be. I, like, and like, I joke, but like, I would start to get invited to things and I had never been invited to stuff before, you know, other than my very close social circle that like we'd get together and talk. I was always good at that piece, but like, I would get together, like, move my body as part of an activity and that was, I'd never done it before.

0:13:11 Thomas: Lollipop. Yeah, What's

0:13:33 Eli: People just assume you don't want to go to physical things if you're Big bodied. Right. They're just like, "Well, you don't want to do that, or it would be embarrassing for you, it would would be hard for you," right? They often, with the best of intentions, right. They're like, "Well, we're taking a hike and we don't want to make you feel bad."

0:13:37 Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or If you go, they constantly check on you, you know, like, are you okay, you're doing. Break. And I'm like, fuck, I'd just rather not be here. Actually, that would be better.

0:13:48 Eli: So, Right. Oh, man, we're just walking to at the, the end of the bar you've stopped to check on me twice. Uh, something you said, Tom, that I think is so vital, and that was really a transformation a for me when it came to thinking about my body, is that when you are a big bodied person, right, you think of yourself as fat, you spend your entire life thinking of yourself in a state of failure. I am fat now, someday I may not be, right. I am bad now, someday I may be good, right. And there's there's a lot of stuff to break down about fat equals bad and not fat equals good, but right, that mindset, right, just just that self -talk of "I am in a perpetual state of failure" is so damaging. And when I did the internal work, which it sounds like sort of came with the external work that you did.

But when I did the internal work and realized thinking that way about my body, labeling myself in that way, to use CBT terms, was doing just a tremendous amount of psychological damage, that like, had it been a partner doing that labeling, or a parent, or a friend, that's an an abuser, right. And it's really, really hard, especially for smart people who sort of like pride themselves on their mind, to go like, "Oh, wait a second, my mind is treating me terribly right now."

0:14:24 Tom: Right.

0:15:12 Tom: Yeah. And like, I, there was long periods of my life where I absolutely did exactly that. I was like, I had a sense that like, value to other people could not possibly have any relationship at all positively to my body, right. And this was like actually like something I had to learn when I became single, even though when I became single I was in fairly good shape, and wasn't asked as dysmorphic as I probably was for like many, many years of my life.

But like, still had weird ideas that were stuck in there from like years of like, yeah, because the world is treating you a certain way, and then you start treating yourself worse than the world is treating you, right.

And so then, like, I had all these like weird ideas, and so like, I became single, and I'm like, okay, well, I want to start dating, and then I would think to myself, I was like, all right, well, like, obviously, like, people aren't going to be attracted to me sexually or physically, and my brain, like, just put that in a bucket And I'd be like, but I have all these other great things to offer, so if I offer enough other good things, maybe somebody will look past this.

0:16:03 Eli: Exactly. Yes. Get tricked into liking me anyways. Yeah.

0:16:13 Tom: Right, and like, yeah, like, like if I can get somebody emotionally invested, then they'll, they'll, you know, and like, that is fucked up. And it wasn't until I started dating, like, which I had never done in my life, because like, ex -wife was the first and only person I dated so no, good, that's not good, so, was the, the first and only person I dated. Now I'm like 35 years old, I've never dated anyone, and I have this like weird sense that like, well, obviously no one's going to be attracted to me physically, so I'm gonna have to like put out all these other good vibes, right, and make people like see past this thing, you know. And then, like, I, I started dating and people, like, were attracted to me, and it blew my fucking mind. Like, I didn't I didn't believe it at first, I did not believe people at first, I thought like, well, they're probably just being nice, you like, I'm, you, and smart, a good cook, you know, like they're probably just be a nice. No,

0:17:02 Eli: Right, right.

0:17:04 Thomas: Amazing to me is that you're able to get past that because I've never gotten past that. But I think that's a, like a fundamental self -esteem issue, you know. It's funny, okay, so I'm just realizing, I, I was, uh, thinking like, oh, I don't want to, you know, repeat myself again. And then I'm realizing, oh wait, I actually said this on SIO. Um, we did excuse the whale, did you watch that fucking flaming piece of shit of a movie, anybody? Did anybody?

0:17:08 Eli: Yeah.

0:17:24 Thomas: Did either of you?

0:17:24 Eli: Yeah.

0:17:24 Tom: I don't know what it is

0:17:25 Eli: I was in that play.

0:17:25 Tom: Right.

0:17:25 Thomas: It is so fucking bad. This is, again, my opinion, but it is the most phobic fat thing I've ever seen in my life. It's absolutely terrible. But anyway, I realized that that's where I talked about some of this stuff. Uh, don't want to like co -opt anything or, or anything. I just want to report the fact about my brain that the, what you described a second ago, that like, you're always in a state of failure and you think like someday you could be better. That's exactly how I've always felt. And I think that I, I have the privilege of, I don't get like treated that way.

Cause obviously like I don'T get perceived as like fat. I don't think, I mean, who knows knows if I have a few thousand more Taco Bell visits per day. Um, so I have that, obviously that privilege. Like, I don't, I don't feel that outwardly, but inwardly, that's exactly how I feel. Like every day I feel that. And the thing I said on SAO that I forgot, it's actually maybe more relevant here, is I have all kinds of negative self -talk about fatness. Like, I'm constantly just like, ah, I'm fucking fat.

I'm fat and fat, and I, one thing that, that absolutely, um, don't know that it's changed how I feel, but it has changed how I behaved, is I just made a comment. Like, I realized, like, I do this all the time. I'll just kind of do it around Lydia. I'll be like, ah, I'm fucking fat. And I'm like, look at this.

And then I'll just make a joke out of it and do like the most unattractive looking body I can possibly do to like make her laugh. And, uh, but that's my way of, like, for, I still feel that, I don't know why. But I realized, like, I started to go into that bit of, like, I'm so fucking fat. And And then I see, oh, Phoebe's within earshot. And

0:17:53 Eli: Yeah, yeah. Hmm.

0:18:51 Thomas: I was just like, oh, fuck, I'm not going to, Jesus Christ. Like, it just was a absolute awakening and shattering of that idea that this is anything I can mess around with, around her, or or any of my kids, this, this negative self -talk about fatness, because especially because, like, I not an idiot, I understand that I'm not perceived as fat, which would probably make it even worse. Like, if Phoebe sees me being like, "I'm a fucking fat piece of shit," like, she's going to be like, "Jesus, okay, like that's fat," you know, like, that would be even worse than, know, that's going To create an even more unrealistic standard.

And so I fortunately, I'M virtually certain she didn't hear it. But ever since that day, I've been like, okay. That's not being said anywhere around my kids at all. Doesn't stop me from saying it in my head or in the privacy of, you late at night when it's just Lydia and I. But that made a huge difference in how I at least casually just do this weird fatphobic kind of talk about myself. I don't know where it comes from or why I do it, but it's

0:18:52 Tom: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, right,

0:19:46 Thomas: Juste there.

0:19:46 Eli: Yeah, and even the just now, as you were talking, right, even that need to invalidate yourself because you're not fat enough, right, you would need to be a certain level of fat to be experienced for that pain to be valid, for that pain to be right. It doesn't matter if you're thin as a rail, right, anorexics will look look in a mirror and be skin and bones and still see a fat person, right? That's that, that is the definition of anorexia. But we rush to invalidate our own pain. And this is something that I think men really need to wrestle with, right, which is that the invalidation of our own pain as a part of toxic masculinity is so ingrained, right. It's part of it is "tough it out," but the other part, and I use this, of course, as do you, is like, well, if I make a a joke, it's not a sad thought, it's a happy, it's a funny thought.

0:20:06 Thomas: Yeah.

0:20:31 Tom: Yeah,

0:20:30 Thomas: Well, agree with all that, but I think it's very important to say that I'm aware that I have not been bullied for my weight. And I think that's It's not to say I'm invalidating any pain I might feel about that, but there is so much trauma that I know other people, perhaps you gentlemen included, have over, you know, like there's the trauma of being bullied about. There's the drama of, the you medical establishment and dealing with some of those things, like that's all something that I do not by any means want to suggest that I have that same experience. But I do have somewhat weirdly a similar internal mental experience about fatness that is just very weird.

0:20:33 Eli: Sure, yes, Yeah.

0:21:08 Tom: There's... there's two things I want to I want to one thing I want return to, one think I want and like you have that because you are surrounded by the image of what like men are supposed to look like, and that supposed to is this sort of like Captain America ask look. Right. The look that men sell specifically to men. Right. This isn't what women are telling us that they want.

0:21:30 Tom: And That is that's super important. Like, is an image that men are selling to men in order to weirdly create hierarchy within patriarchy. Right. So patriarchy is not just men are valued over women. Right. Patriarchy is, look, men are, of course, valued over women. And then within the sphere of men, certain men are value. Valued over all of others. And it's a way to create a hierarchy like a fucking MLM with almost nobody at the top. That is, that is how those structures work.

So we're sort of like constantly, you pick up a comic book, a movie, a novel, like whatever you look at, like what what male heroes look like, and they have a certain look to them. Right. And it's an unattainable, genetically nearly impossible, and like financially and time -wise unattainably look for almost everybody. Right. And especially as we get older, like it's not a literally can't chase that unless you are of these very certain genetics and a very high income.

So, but that's still like the thing that's told, a message that like, this is what attractive is and everything else is unattractive. Like, there's not this like sliding scale, at least in my mind, there's like not this like sliding skill of like, well, that's the, that's cultural 10, but then this is a cultural 8. It's like, that's a cultural 10 and then there's 0.

0:21:28 Thomas: No. Yeah, exactly. It's really not.

0:22:47 Thomas: Oh, wow. Yeah. Not sure I have that. Interesting. That all or nothing.

0:22:52 Tom: And least for me, like, and as somebody who spent, like, I just calling myself, as somebody spent like years trying to be fit, and having been been heavy, like unless I like do crazy shit, like get surgery and calorie restrict to a point of like absurdity, I'm going to be a muscular guy with a dad bod. That's what I'm gonna be. And can look at all the polls that I want, and I can hear my wife, and I can see my wife's actions, and I know, I know without a shadow of a doubt that she is deeply, deeply attracted to me. I can see all the surveys that are like, yeah, dad bods are hot. And I can look at all that and be like, yeah, but every other image that I've internalized my whole life, and that was reinforced by this bullying, tells me that if I'm overweight and not like and muscular and the perfect V, that could anybody possibly like that? Because I don't. Right.

0:22:52 Thomas: Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

0:23:08 Eli: Right. Mm.

0:23:38 Tom: So like it stems from like, yeah, but I don'T like that. So if I don't like it, how could somebody else like, you can tell me all day. But so that's like a battle that has to constantly be fought. And like you pointed out, Thomas, like you don't want to bring this stuff up to your kids. Like is naturally heavier and Donovan is naturally quite thin. And both of them are working out. And they, we talk about it. We talked about it all this last weekend. Like we went down in the basement. I showed him stuff, like really into it. And I have to be very like on while I do that, because like I have to be aware that they see me as like something that they're kind of like, and they, I know this just because they've said it, like, kind of a goal they're shooting for. Right.

0:23:41 Eli: -hmm. Of course. Mm.

0:24:17 Tom: I see me as like, God, I have so much fucking work to do, I have such a lot of work to be able to do, and I have a lot to do. But I have so much working work to, but if I let them know that I'm not happy with the way that I look, they'll be devastated by how they look. And I'm like super fucking aware of that. So it's all, all praise, like with the kids and how that intersects with the kids, it's all praise. It's, it's all good. It's, God, you worked so hard. Look how hard you're working. It's really paying off. I'm so fucking proud of you. It's, it's, I'm really proud of all that stuff. It's never like comment on how they look physically. I only comment on the work that they put in. And if they come to me with an achievement, I celebrate the achievement. Like, and I will say Finn Sunday, this blew my mind Sunday. Finn asked if we could arm wrestle. And I was like, sure, we can arm wrestle, I almost,

0:24:49 Eli: -hm. Oh.

0:24:59 Thomas: Let me tell you from experience. You buddy. You don'T want to arm wrestle T -Rex Tom over here.

0:25:06 Tom: Thomas, we went a full minute and a half, both pushing as hard as we could.

0:25:08 Thomas: Holy shit, you see this expression changing on Tom. So I'm gonna let him win. I'm going to let, oh, oh, oh, this is a little harder than I thought. Single bead of sweat comes down for it. Oh, uh, this,

0:25:21 Eli: Yeah,

0:25:13 Tom: Yeah. I And he was so proud of himself, he was så proud to see that, like, the for the first time I wasn't like holding back to like not hurt him or whatever, that like we were like really matched in this moment. And like he could walk away from these experiences being like, man, dad doesn't like his body, like what the fuck hope do I have? But instead he walks away from these experiences feeling so proud of how strong he's getting and how like far he's come.

And that I think about that all the time, because like I've got all these fucking weird body issues from like getting bullied and having been like seesawed back and forth and all this stuff. But I'm just like, man, like not for the kids, like, not for those fucking kids, you know? Cause I'll put all that stuff in a bucket and work on it. And that's my shit. But I're not handing any of my shit to the kids. So just like you, Tom, it's like, oh, I don't want to make these like jokes in front of the kids about like, I'm so fat or like whatever, you're doing.

0:25:58 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:26:13 Tom: Like, so fucking hyper conscious of that. Probably because like we do have a little bit bit of a role model situation.

0:26:20 Eli: And go even farther and say that you have to demonstrate positivity, even if you aren't necessarily feeling it, right? Not just the nature of like, don't call yourself fat in front of your kids. You like have to talk about loving your body. And I say that as someone who, well,

0:26:31 Thomas: And I'm All right. Man. I'm trying, look, it's hard enough to do the first thing, you're gonna give me homework to do.

0:26:35 Tom: Yeah.

0:26:36 Eli: Yeah, I mean, I'll tell you the truth. Cause, like, looking, I was in exactly Finn's position, which is that my dad was the strongest, most fit person I knew. And he constantly talked about how fat and out of shape he was and never said it to me. Never, ever again, same thing. Always encouraged me. "You're so strong. You're so amazing." All that stuff. But the message I got every time he called himself fat was, "You is my standard and you haven't met it," right?

And this, if you're not asking yourself, if your not having these thoughts towards yourself, your being unrealistic, right, your lying to yourself. And I learned a tremendous amount about that. You know, I've talked about this other places. One of the things that makes me saddest about my dad's passing is that he did not ever feel good about anything in his life.

He constantly talked about what a failure he was, and he didn't have enough money, and "I'm going to get this for your mom, and I'm gonna get this for you, and I'm gonna do this," and "I'm just a big failure, and I haven't done that," and, like, never took a single moment of his life to appreciate all the wonderful things about himself, but that included his body, right?

The one thing that he was at least kind of sort of aware he was doing well at, right, he knew he was a big, strong guy, he was offering to help people move, right?

0:27:53 Eli: But he never, he never owned that self-love of body. And so, like, I know this is gonna sound silly, but like a lot of the stuff that I do with my body, aside from being super funny, is also about demonstrating self-love for Max. Like, I know that sounds like a crazy thing to say, like, I walk out in a body thong on stage because I want to set a good example for my son.

But like, I'm only like a little kidding, because when Max, assuming he's not, you two psychopaths who just has no interest whatsoever and your parents, uh, when Max looks back and sort of sees, or at least when he becomes cognizant of sort of what I do and the things that I say on stage, one of the things that he will see is like, I am aware of and enjoy my body as it is. Right. And have fun with my body as it is.

And it's not, right, the body thong thing, like it's multifaceted. It's some funny, cause I'm a big bodied person. Some people, it's just straight up sexy. I have gotten, gotten that feedback plenty of times, right, like, it for

0:27:53 Tom: Well,

0:28:53 Eli: Me. And for me it's just funny, because like, why would you walk out on stage wearing that incredibly exposing outfit. But like, those are the kind of examples, I'm not saying you guys should wear body thongs in front of your kids, but like we can't just not be negative about our kids' bodies. We have to actively demonstrate positivity. Yeah.

0:29:11 Tom: I got more work to do, God.

0:29:11 Thomas: All Right. You Come and do that. Yeah, I was gonna say, can I out? Can I outsource.

0:29:14 Tom: Damn. It. See?

0:29:15 Thomas: That can. You come.

0:29:14 Eli: Bring Your kids to A live show, I'll wear whatever the fuck I wear on stage. Change.

0:29:16 Thomas: Yeah.

0:29:18 Tom: That's so funny, because I like, I'll talk to my kids about the things that I do with my body in positive ways. Like, I told them about my bike race I did, I did a bike race, was proud of myself, I told him about it, you know, because like, I do want to like, like hey, like, if you set goals and you achieve them, you're, you know, you can feel good about these things. You don't have to hold back about like feeling good about the things you accomplish. I think there's a lot of like minimization people do around their achievements because They don't want to feel like they're patting themselves on the back all the time. So

0:29:42 Thomas: Well. Yes, see our bragging episode, that was

0:29:47 Tom: Yeah. Right. So I do think there was a healthy way to do that. And I'm trying to like find that space and show them that space. It never occurred to me until right now that I should ever make a positive comment about my own self, like

0:29:47 Thomas: Uh, yeah. Yeah.

0:30:01 Thomas: Tom, I'm going through, I'm the same process you are right now, and I'm thinking, I don't know, I think that stuff you're talking about might be enough. I'm thinking I could probably pull that off for me within the athletics context. Like, I could probably be like, oh, I'm pretty proud of the that I've put in effort athletics wise and achieved goals. Kind of like you're talking about, Tom. I could probably do it in that context. I don't know about anything else. I think

0:30:21 Tom: But like, I'm we're talking, it's like, this is fast. I got, cause I'm thinking about both of my teenage sons and they're, they are both very body conscious. They really are. And because of course they are, they're teenagers. Right. And Like I said, they, they come, they come to this from different angles, like they're the odd couple physically, it's like really comical, um, they're, they're both like kind of wrestling with that and I think that like Eli, you're right, they need to hear like if they see me in a certain light, they need to see that I'm happy not just with what I've achieved with my body but with like the aesthetic. Right, need to hear that message because what they're working on is the aesthetic because they're young. Right, they want to hit certain numbers? Sure. But would they trade those numbers for a certain look in a second?

0:30:31 Eli: Yeah, of course.

0:31:05 Tom: A second.

0:31:05 Eli: Of course.

0:31:07 Thomas: Important to say though, that I don'T want us and other parents to feel bad about themselves for potentially failing this, I think this is not a guaranteed success story. I THINK THERE'S A LOT lot about this that's societal. There's a lot that might just be innate. I mean, we're competitive just by nature. Like we, we as a species often, I think most people feel that pressure to like be desirable. And then you inevitably take a look around and you compare and just the way our world is gives you too many opportunities to compare these days. Know, whether it's social media or even just fucking magazines and TV. Like that's one of the things that, we've kind of covered over on SIO is like how much a lot of this isn't new.

Like people are expecting to see some big surge because of social media. And that's the data is still, mixed on that. But um, part of the reason is because it's, it's already been there. Like there's already every opportunity to compare yourself to TV, movies, you magazines, even before the prevalence of social media. You. So there's a lot about this that I just, I just want to make sure people aren't setting themselves up for like, okay, if I haven't rid my child of any body image issues, then I failed as a parent. And I don't,

0:31:20 Tom: Yeah, for sure. Oh,

0:32:02 Eli: Yeah.

0:32:13 Tom: Lord. No.

0:32:14 Thomas: Yeah, like, I think we need to set kind of realistic goals there.

0:32:14 Tom: Yeah. No, yes.

0:32:17 Eli: Yeah, I mean, look, and nothing we do as parents is going to guarantee that our kids have healthy attitudes. Right now, no choice we make, no good thing we do is going to be a good thing, but I do think it's a vital ingredient. Right, and I think that we often give ourselves a pass because it's hard, right? Right. Because it feels like an insurmountable mountain. And especially if we're dealing with self-esteem issues, it's like, well, fuck, what do I do? I start bragging about my body to my kids. Like, where where the hell does one begin? Because that works fucking hard. Right. Self-love is really hard. It's devalued by society in a lot of really super shitty ways. And so, yeah, it's fucking hard to do. But but the point that you're making, that no one thing is a panacea, is absolutely true. Uh We should tell people, yeah, you're never going to make or break your kids based on that. But like everything we recommend on this show, when we sort of ever speak seriously, is like, least could help, right? It can at least be a part of

0:32:28 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. You

0:32:42 Tom: Right? Right.

0:33:09 Eli: It.

0:33:09 Thomas: Don't want to fail them. You know, make it worse and set them off on the wrong long footing for sure.

0:33:12 Tom: Well, I think, Eli, you're just dead right. I think it's like, yeah, maybe it doesn't work. Maybe they still end up eating like all of that cultural shit and internalizing and having like their own intuitive sense of like what they prefer. And maybe that's not healthy, but like won't be because of my lack of trying. And like that's all we can do as parents.

0:33:28 Thomas: Yeah. Well, it is true. The science is very clear that being a shit parent has a huge effect. It is always the difference between a good parent and a great parent. Honestly, it's not much like usually scientifically not much. The difference between a shit parent and anything else is huge. You So like, know, bolster the point further that you are making, being a shit parent isn't one thing. I break that up into categories. So, you know, the difference between, okay, you're, maybe you're a fine parent otherwise, but on this one issue, you've done a shit job. You've given your child a lot of baggage. The difference between that and not doing that might be really huge on that one issue.

0:33:34 Tom: Right.

0:34:06 Tom: And I know I mentioned this before, but I'm just remembering it. Like have a complicated relationship with my step-mom, like for lack of a better term, Lynn, she's been with my dad for 40 some years.

0:34:15 Eli: Handshake.

0:34:15 Tom: Step-mom never lived together, handshake Friend. But like, one of the things like I have very complicated set of feelings and relationships with her, but I think it's precisely because of that. Like, of ways that she was suboptimal was when I was heavy, you she would make comments to me like, you've got to lose weight or you're not going to be able to make friends. You know, no one's going to like you if know, you things know, like that. Probably internalized a lot of that shit. You know, like I wasn't like, 18 you when she said that stuff, I was a pretty little kid, you I remember hating hearing it, but like I think that that just is like a sort of parental echo of a lot of the sort of social sexual desirability messages that are sort of taught to us culturally. And so like, like yeah, if our parents echo the worst and most poisonous elements of those cultural messages that's going to reinforce them like that is just very likely to reinforce those messages, so,

0:34:16 Eli: Friend. Yeah.

0:34:16 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah,

0:35:07 Eli: Right.

0:35:08 Tom: Swimming upstream against an entire society of of culture and media is not going to like fix the problem, but it's certainly not going fucking cement it in there, so you become a weirdo like me that like, I'm glad you're attracted to me but I don't get it, you you know, like, yeah, right. Yeah.

0:35:21 Thomas: Yeah,

0:35:21 Eli: Yeah, what a lucky stroke for me, yeah. Trend on TikTok now called almond moms, where people talk about sort of the trend of boomer slash, um, moms to be like, just have a handful of almonds when you're hungry, or like, the if you're angry you're probably just thirsty, have a big glass of water. Like all those fucking insanely unhealthy things that our parents said to us.

0:35:40 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah

0:35:46 Tom: Is aware that like, is heavy and doesn't want to be. Right, like I said, he's also massively strong and he's working out and he got a lot of things to be proud of, but he's still living in a culture. And, and so he's aware of these heavy and he'd prefer not to be. And I also don't want, I also want to ignore that when he comes to me and says, because, you hey, can you help me learn how to lose weight, dad?

Thing I tell him is like, yeah, I want you to know I love you. If you don't want to loseweight and you're happy with the way you look, then just like be happy. And if you love your body, just love your buddy. But also, like if you don't, you live in a world and you' re surrounded by these messages. And it's okay to want to change your body and do work to changeyour body for you. Like, so this is what I told him.

You then let's sit down and talk about like that I've used in my life when I've lost weight that I thought were effective that you can use too. You also think there's kind of like a, like a weird flip side to some of those sort of like really well -intentioned messaging. So there's a desire sort of to never, you tell your kids they're fat and they have to lose weight. Absolutely. We shouldn't do that.

But then also sometimes our kids come to us and say, hey, I'm not happy with the way I look and I want to lose, and think that there is a flip side that I have seen, and I've seen it like in relationships that that I'm aware of, where the parents are like not helpful with

0:36:56 Eli: Right.

0:36:57 Tom: That goal because they think that if they help with that goal that they're reinforcing that social messaging. But it's like that social messaging is already there. That's why they came to you for help. And it's OK to be like, yeah, you will help you shape your body in ways that make you happy. And I will do that work with you and for you.

0:37:06 Thomas: Yeah.

0:37:06 Eli: Right. And Right. Sometimes what your kid needs is healthy guidance and and understanding, right? So like another great example is like when I started to get chubby, I went to my dad who was in incredible shape and I was like, I want to be in incredible shape. Right. And my dad, very well-intentioned as he was, was like, sure thing kiddo, let's work out together. Right?

Probably what I needed was like a good conversation about like appreciating the body you're in and understanding that no one on the front of a magazine article has had water for 24 hours, right, like that, that is so much more important than teaching a 12 year old to bench, right.

One of the things that's come up as you've talked about working out with your boys, and something that you model that I, that I love, is you talk about sort of the fun and excitement and health benefits of working out with them rather than, we're gonna get scrunked, right, um, although now we've used that for masturbate, so we're gonna get crocked, or we're Gonna get like you know ripped or wrecked or whatever the case is, because, like, not don't with your kids.

0:38:16 Thomas: I'm going to need you to keep the vocabulary. Yeah Yeah,

0:38:22 Eli: If we have one, look, give your baby a bottle of Tylenol, don't hit your kids and don't scrunk with them, these are the three messages. I have a scrunk, and he's my, he's a Taurus and he was born in July and he might be scrunking, but he means it. Um, the conversation that needs to be had is not the, oh my gosh, finally, yes, let's get you on the Atkins diet. And what needs to Behead is not like the weird denial of their emotions, of like, no, no no, you're perfect the way you are, you are big boned, yada yada, which

0:38:22 Tom: And yes

0:38:54 Thomas: We've talked about before, too, like the credibility issue as a parent. Kids Like are going to suss out if you're bullshitting them and then you lose parent as a parent. And that's not good in the long run, either.

0:39:03 Eli: I And that sometimes you need to have the much harder conversations about like, hey, you know what, I look like this, and you know, I think about this a lot with Max, is Max is probably going to be heavy because I'm heavy, right, that's just like genetics play a much bigger role, maybe it jumps a generation, maybe he'll be super, you ripped like his grandpa was, maybe he will inherit Anna's family and he'll on the thinner side, but the truth is if he has my body he's going to on the bigger side, and one of my favorite things about the show is saying like, I'm going to do this really healthy thing, and then fucking it goes out the window, but like one of the things that I hope I can convey in the way that I see you actively conveying it now, Tom, is being healthy, being active, making good choices, but also understanding that your body is your body and you need to learn to love it as it is, right, a weird, like, I'm sorry I'm not some hippie dippy woo woo, like, no, that's like a really vital part of being a living human, all

0:40:06 Eli: I have been saving this one for a while and I am so excited to tell you, before we go, what did the strawberry say when he walked into the bank, hands in the air, this is a strawberry This is the best, it's the fucking it's the, I saw that one and I was like, fuck yes, I'm saving it for a good day. Oh, you hate to see it.

0:40:23 Thomas: Yeah, that's pretty bad.

0:40:19 Tom: It's horrible that's the worst one you've ever done that is atrocious you're a bad person right

0:40:32 Eli: Yep. Yep.

0:40:40 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

0:41:19 Thomas: Skronky it to Tom let's