DOD89: The Writing's On the Wall. And Door. And... Everywhere

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:29 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the Podcast that doesn't know the meaning of no. I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined, as always, by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick.

0:00:37 Thomas: We're talking about consent again. Okay. All right.

0:00:40 Tom: No, enough. There must be a limit to how much Facebook can be interacted with. So, no, we're not going to talk about consent again. So,

0:00:42 Eli: Yeah, that's fair. Going to get your own like again emoji where the thing just crosses its arms and sort of shakes its head in disappointment.

0:00:56 Thomas: Stop everything. Stop the presses. I, just remembered, I think watch.

0:01:00 Eli: Cricket Watch 2023. Yeah, no, I had the cricket the other day. I was very excited for him to be back on the pod, but unfortunately we got a little bit of a cold snap and I think he didn't make it. So

0:01:05 Thomas: We weren't. Oh my gosh. We, just sends us a message. The cricket is back. And Tom and I were both shitting our pants. And then now he's just this guy, I guess it's a lesson about the fragility of life. I suppose it's, uh, you know,

0:01:09 Eli: Yeah, Yeah, and for those of you who signed up the patreon just to support the cricket you can delete your pledges now.

0:01:26 Thomas: I, I started a GoFundMe for his

0:01:30 Eli: Thomas Yeah started a podcast with the cricket.

0:01:32 Thomas: Donate to that

0:01:29 Tom: I I just also learned Eli's basement is cricket killing cold down there, I have no idea how he's

0:01:39 Eli: It is, I had to move a space heater down there because my plumber was down here and he was like, hey, um, do you do for heat in the winter? And I was like, oh, I don't need to heat it down here anymore, I'm using these heaters upstairs and got a heat heat pump. And he was like, cool, do you see these? And I was like, what are those? And he's like, those are your pipes, um, there's water in them, and if you don't keep it 55 degrees in here it will freeze and your house will implode. And I was like, well, that's not good, what heater should I get? And he was like, literally any heater, anything that creates heat, the most basic human function of of technology. And I was like, all right, well, you could be a little nicer about it.

0:01:53 Thomas: Yeah

0:02:02 Tom: So Eli just lit a bonfire

0:02:15 Thomas: Like and your crickets will stop dying, yeah, yeah

0:02:16 Tom: Right got this new construction house and they did the coolest thing when they turn, and I thought like every house should just come with a guy that does this, and I don't know how they would make that work, but there was a guy who walked me through the house and told me how everything worked, which I already knew, you But like, know, if I was a first time homeowner, it'd be awesome, but then he also told me like how everything works and like where to buy replacements for things and how often to replace this and when to reclock that and through how to maintain like a goddamn house, house, because the first house I got I was just like, oh, how often do you like caulk your windows?

And it's like, I don't know, when the water comes in, like yeah, I literally had no idea when anything to do anything, so isn't an Emmanuel, Emmanuel on a resale house, and I was, I was shocked and pleasantly surprised with the new construction house, they actually have a whole walkthrough process, it's like, okay, we gave this to you, and it was nice, you know, maybe don't fuck it up, curry, maybe don't

0:02:51 Eli: Yep.

0:03:07 Tom: Fuck it up

0:02:39 Thomas: Wow yeah my house is completely fucked, so I'm, I'm, when I have time I'm going through the process of rebuilding that on my own, I actually really like it, I, number of ways you can improve the function of something as basic as say a dishwasher, it's pleasing to my dad brain a dead cricket

0:03:07 Eli: Yeah.

0:03:21 Eli: Hey, guys, you know, the only thing worse than Than A dead cricket is the auto ads The auto adds so much more annoying than a constant cricket in the background of our podcast, like wildly enthusiastically more annoying than a cricket in the background of our, but then a cricket inside your eye socket while you listen to this podcast, but you can pull the cricket out of your eye socket by heading over to patreon.com/dearolddads and giving us as little as a dollar, you'll get access to a commercial-free version of every episode as well as a bonus parenting story on almost every show when Tom can be bothered, so check that out over at patreon.com/dearolddads, do it for the cricket, mirror

0:03:27 Thomas: Yikes oh

0:03:28 Tom: Live cricket actually

0:04:13 Thomas: I got a little mini story to start out this one. Uh, mentioned before that, uh, my dear, darling, amazing Phoebe child, who, um, is a very challenging child, but nonetheless is a little genius artist. And I love her and she's the best. And she's so creative, doing, um, projects everywhere, all day, all the time. She's doing little, creative, you things 24 seven, which I can't believe that someday, not very long from now, that has to be gone from my life, which sucks.

How am which I going to get by not having that nonsense going on all day? It's my favorite thing. Anyway, she, um, to write on things, draw on things. You know, kids have a issue with perhaps drawing or writing on things they shouldn't. And so here's the first iteration of this was, drawn on a lot of things.

Never been a huge deal, but, but the other day we come into her room and has like a white headboard for her kid, uh, you know, and come in one day and there's just drawing and writing all over it, like it went from this is a white headboard to this is now, it's not just like, oh, she, she wrote like Phoebe or no, it's like a whole world of things. One of which was she wrote, I have a picture I can post, maybe she wrote, who let the dogs out, and then woofs, like

0:05:08 Tom: Oh, yeah.

0:05:26 Thomas: Woof, woof. Woof, like everywhere around the other stuff. So like there's all these stickers. There's like our names. There's a picture of the whole family and the, you know, awful kids stick figure version. And then in, interspersed in all of that is like who let almost like it's a psychopath psychopath murderer and you're discovering their secret code, you know, like it's, oh, I get it.

0:05:46 Thomas: I pattern now. It's like, who let the dogs out? Woof, woof, Woof. Woof like in different areas. It is so good. And so my first reaction, of course, in my own brain, cause I often just do my reactions in my brain. Cause that's what I have to do was all my fucking God, this child is in so much trouble. But then very quickly I was like, you actually don't care about this. Like life, I'm trying to find out, like, when do I care about stuff? When don't I? Like, what matters? What doesn't? Like are things that were rules? We talked about it before. What are things that were rules for reason? What are things that are rules for not a reason. And I don't know. It's her space. It's her bed. It's a kid bed. It's already fucking broken. I'm not doing anything with it. After she grows out of it, it'll go in the trash because it's already... I

0:05:45 Eli: A regatron based serial real killer, right right

0:06:31 Thomas: Think I...

0:06:31 Tom: It's not a fucking museum piece, right? Like it's not like a fucking Marie Antoinette. Like I got this from Versailles, you know?

0:06:33 Eli: Oh

0:06:33 Thomas: Yeah. That's That's all it it could be actually. If, if Phoebe does something important, all it could be as a museum, but that's the only thing could be it's broken. Cause I sat on it too hard. And like one of the slats toward the bottom, is you like totally cracked. And so every time I put my leg on there or sit on there, I like sink into it. It's really funny. So it's trash basically. It's usable trash for now. And I was like, I don't know, man, it's her bed. I don't think I care about this. And there's been other things she's, draws all over herself almost every day.

0:06:37 Tom: Yeah. Right.

0:06:41 Eli: That

0:07:03 Tom: Oh my God. So do my kids. That doesn't change by the way. Like my 16 year old son will draw on himself like that, oh my god.

0:07:08 Eli: Sucks Tear

0:07:11 Thomas: I Just draws all of her. And I have the same reaction where I'm like, well, I guess I don't care though, is the thing. Like, I don't think I care. She's going to be embarrassed because she did it, she'll be embarrassed because it's like Tom always says, like natural consequences. Like she goes into class and people think it's funny, then she'll probably stop doing it. If not, I don't fucking care anyway. Lydia said the other day, she's like, I wonder if Phoebe's going to like get a bunch of tattoos or be a tattoo artist because she'll do stuff that's like very tattoo-like.

I think she has, you know, examples in her life of adults that have tattoos and she'll drop drop like full gang, yeah, yeah, full gang tattoos. She's like we visited a prison the other Day and they were like giving her signs. I didn't understand it, but yeah, she seemed to get along with the gentleman very, very well. Also. Of it looks really cool sometimes where I'm like, oh, this is kind of awesome. She has like these really cool fake tattoos that she's drawn on herself. And I just don't care. I don't know. I like I don'T think I care. Should. I do that thing where I'm like, do I need to be mad about it? I just I don't care.

OK, well, finally, last night after I put put them all to bed, uh, downstairs and I, you know, downstairs where we watch TV is pretty near the front door. It's like kind of front door and then the, you room to the, to the left of that, walking downstairs, go back down to the TV room, to work, I guess, actually didn't get to watch TV. And I look at the, uh.

Front Front door and the whole front door has a giant, what I quickly quickly sussed out was her trying to do like a measuring. I have like a measuring ruler thing that I do for their height, you know, like a big old ruler

0:07:11 Tom: Yeah.

0:07:42 Eli: Trap every time she kills Someone

0:07:44 Tom: Iron Crosses Just Whatever Yeah.

0:07:52 Eli: Right.

0:08:45 Tom: Yeah, oh

0:08:46 Thomas: I put on the wall. She decided to do that herself. But of course, it's not very useful because they write the numbers and just random distances and you know.

0:08:46 Tom: My

0:08:54 Eli: She's Just like one three ninety seven

0:08:57 Thomas: She can nail all the numbers. It's just the distances are not, you know, they're all crazy. And she wrote a whole number line on the fucking front front door. So now I'm like, oh man, this might be where I'm supposed to care. This time yet. I got to see if the marker comes out. You know, I don't know. I think it should. It's probably a kid marker, but it's a white door. So will it be the thing where you can still see the bullshit kind of?

0:09:07 Tom: God, oh

0:08:58 Eli: Yeah. Yeah. -hmm, sure. Yeah. Right. That red splotch like, like, you killed a mailman just sitting there?

0:09:26 Thomas: Yeah. And so, like, and here's the thing, I, I have no license whatsoever to go to a tent, I can't be mad at her because she has followed The Pattern that I've given her, which is Okay, that's fine, she's to an inevitable conclusion, which is fucking drawing on the front goddamn door, so And-

0:09:33 Tom: No, yeah. Well.

0:09:43 Eli: Yeah. She finds out where boundaries are by drawing random places.

0:09:47 Thomas: So I need to communicate like, all right, you can't do that. That's not okay. But I have to do it in a way that's both not too mad for what the situation is. Cause I get it. I'm not really mad, but like, also I have to somehow get, get her to remember not to do this. You, the biggest thing, I don't want to get mad at kids just to get mad at kids. Biggest thing is they don't remember fucking anything unless you make an of impression some kind. So haven't solved that one. I don't want to like yell at them, but I have to like, to like be a little bit intense so that maybe they'll remember otherwise they just don't remember. They don't care.

0:10:05 Eli: -hmm.

0:10:18 Eli: Anything you want them to remember. They remember everything you don't want them to remember they'll be like, do you remember in the car when the song came on when the man was like, and therefore, I have always, and they'll do the fucking entire Declaration of Independence, and you'll be like fire hot and they'll be like, I have no idea what's going on, man, I just, you lost me at whatever that first word was.

0:10:23 Thomas: Yeah.

0:10:23 Tom: Right, so

0:10:38 Thomas: Perfect example of that. That. The other day in the car, Phoebe was like, Hey, do you remember when we were at Disneyland and we met another Phoebe in line? And I was like that was fucking two years. I have no idea what you're talking about. She was like yeah. And I asked Lydia, is that true? And Lydia was like oh yeah, yeah, I remember that. I was like, how the fuck do you remember that? That was like two years ago.

0:10:57 Eli: Yeah.

0:10:57 Thomas: Crazy.

0:10:58 Tom: Aislinn, Ben is before I met her, but I know this story very, very well. Aisling was an inveterate drawer honor of stuff, like, she, she would just draw on like fucking like everything, like every available surface. And I will say that even up until last year, like maybe nine months ago, I looked on my kitchen table and in pencil, like she's got a very specific art style. She had drawn in pencil right on the dining room table.

And, you, she is like at this point, 12 years old. So she was little, Haley was telling me a story years ago that when she was little, know, you, she catches Aislinn, you behind the couch and Aisling's, you know, got you markers or crayons or whatever it is and she's drawing and drawing and drawing and, know, you, Haley comes over to see what's going on and move the couch. And behind the coach there's a whole fucking cityscape on the wall, like a whole thing. And mad are you going to be about somebody expressing their creativity, and have different responses, because part, like, of me is like, yeah, kinder, I'd be pretty pissed, like, I don't want you wrecking

0:10:58 Thomas: Oh, that's awesome. Yeah.

0:11:56 Tom: My shit, you don't want my house to look trashed personally, but I did, I get to that, other people are like, look, it's kids and I don't want to limit their creativity, I think that line, I HAVE to have a way to express to the kids what their boundaries are ahead of time. And then when they cross those boundaries, find some way to make them understand that that boundary was crossed in a way that isn't you getting mad, right? Because like or you, like, when we get mad and don't understand that they crossed the boundary, we haven't done them any favors. We haven't helped them understand. They're just now dealing with our emotional response to something they weren't even expecting us to be emotional about, so that's not really a, like, fair place to put them.

0:11:56 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:12:19 Eli: Yeah. Oh.

0:12:36 Tom: Amen, before we move from our old house, so this last year and bless, in the last 12 months, go downstairs and on the white baseboard, and this killed me, is written in black, black marker, Amon, just the word Amon.

0:12:49 Thomas: Oh. Is this the one where he pretended it wasn't him?

0:12:53 Tom: And so I call him, I call him over and I'm like, bro, you can't write on the baseboard. And he's like, wasn't me. I didn't, you know, I didn'T, I didn't do it. I obviously, he's looking at me, look at me right into the fucking deadlights. And he's just like, no, no, swearing up and down, it wasn't mean. I was like, look, man, I know that's you, it's your name, that's your, your handwriting, nobody else would write your name, no man, I didn't do it, I said you got And this, this is what killed me, I said, buddy, you gotta understand why I'm upset right now is because you used a permanent marker to write your nome on a white baseboard, that's not gonna come out, and then he looks and goes, that wasn't a permanent maker, and I was like, oh, well, which marker did you use, and he toddles over to the markers and he grabs the marker and I'm like, you just showed me that you did it, buddy, I got you, you know,

0:13:06 Thomas: Yeah, it's what they want you to think.

0:13:46 Thomas: Yeah

0:13:46 Tom: Like, and he was like, ah,

0:13:46 Thomas: Now I'm mad that not you're a better good, criminal.

0:13:51 Tom: But the whole thing was so funny. The whole thing was so fun. I do think that what you can do in these circumstances is explain to kids and like Phoebe's of an age where she'll get it. Hey, look, if got all this paper, all these other things, I don't even mind if you draw on your headboard, don't write write other places in the house. Cause those things So if you want to write on your things then that makes sense but

0:14:08 Thomas: Yeah, I know. These are conversations that have been had a lot.

0:14:13 Tom: Yeah, no, I know you know how to make that conversation, but then she does, she's got to help you clean it of getting mad the consequence is all right, now she's going to do a shit job and it's not going to be effective and to, but what you have to do is waste some of her time doing something she doesn't want to do in order to build that man, you can do it in a way that's not mad, be like, all right, well, look, we talked about this and I know you forgot, but now we have have to spend our afternoon cleaning and she's not going to love that

0:14:17 Thomas: Yeah, that's probably a good idea. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man.

0:14:37 Eli: That So Haley gave me that tip the other day, we were talking potty training, and I think it was because she was listening to the episode where I was talking about being nervous, and she was like, yeah, you know, uh, you just make them clean it when they have an accident, I was like, oh, My gosh.

0:14:37 Tom: Yeah.

0:14:48 Thomas: Jesus Christ.

0:14:48 Eli: It's like such a brilliant thing, it inconveniences them, like, great idea, and we're not potty training Max yet, but one thing that Max does is for some fucking reason when he is done with any water bottle, he hurls it on the floor like fucking Thor, right, and sometimes he sprinkles water on the floor on purpose just cause like he's excited and interested about the shape of that thing. And I was like, ah, I, Haley in my ear.

And he pours some water on the floor and I was like, oh buddy, now it's time to clean. And he like wants to go play with his trains. And I'm like, no, we can't play with our trains. We got to soak up the water. So we go get the paper towel and we soak up the water and he doesn't super like it, but I'm like, nah, this is what we got to do. Cause we made a mess.

Now he spills water out on purpose and he's like, uh, we could play towel. We play towel now. Out and I'm like, oh shit, God, backfired, it backfiled, But Um, back to the experience of like, know, discipline and that kind of stuff, something that I have struggled with and and still struggle with a lot is the difference between boundaries and preferences, right, because for me and Thomas, I feel like you might be in the same boat, my inner world is, my preference is that everyone would stay in complete and total stillness and silence

0:15:38 Thomas: Play towel.

0:15:59 Thomas: Yeah.

0:16:00 Eli: For the next 10,000 years, right? Like, why don't we all just sit on our various screens until our bodies literally decay off of our bones? Like, that is my idea of a good time. So, So I, constantly, I, when Max is doing a thing, my, you know, talk about like dealing with that initial reaction. My initial reaction is like, why is he playing with cars so joyfully? Right. And I have to be like, no, Eli, he's supposed to play with cars joyfully. And so like one of the things that has been a struggle when it comes to permission versus non -permission is, is this something that should actually be a boundary?

And when do I need to demonstrate like, hey, I'd prefer you don't do that, but it's actually not my place to say. Great A example of this is, once again, and they don't remember anything except what you don't want them to remember.

One time my son was just sort of walking around in the back porch, we're chilling, he starts running his fingernails up and down the aluminum siding, a noise which I don't like, right, doesn't bother me, it doesn't affect me, I don't have an a neurotypical thing where it puts me in like pain or suffering, I just don't like the noise, and I was like, hey buddy, can you not do that, and he looks at me and gets the big smile and he starts doing it again, and I realize, shit, this isn't a boundary, it's a preference, right, I was like, yeah, I mean, I guess, I guess you could do that if you want to.

And so now whenever we are outside, if my son is bored or mad at me or fucking the moon is out in the right location, he runs over to the aluminum's hiding and while making hard eye contact is just like, and

0:16:02 Thomas: Yeah.

0:16:11 Thomas: Yeah, kind of me, too.

0:17:31 Thomas: Yep.

0:17:32 Eli: I'm just like, cool, cool, this is great. This is a boundary, preference, it's preference, preference.

0:17:35 Tom: My God, but Wait a minute, let me understand, because I think it's okay for us to teach our kids to respect our preferences too, because I would respect respect their preferences, and I certainly respect Haley's preferences, and I know she respects mine. So I'm not sure that I, I'm not sure a hundred percent, I understand difference. Like I don't think the kids should have like carte blanche to do whatever.

0:17:57 Eli: Well, here's the difference, Tom. Have sane preferences, so your inner life can be trusted, You're right? Like, oh no, that's a reasonable preference that I have. You know, I would like this not to happen. Whereas my preference -o -meter goes to a 40 when he like coughs. I'm like, really?

0:18:15 Tom: I got you. Okay.

0:18:16 Eli: Wow. In my head, right. Not out loud, obviously. Out loud, I'm like, you okay, buddy? Have some water. But inside, I am like, wow, I was right in the middle of writing a sentence and you coughed right then. Wow. So what happens is I, I'm have to run everything through like a, what does the sane person think about this? How do sane people feel about this particular activity?

0:18:36 Thomas: Eli, do do you want to go in on hiring a sane person to just be our internal?

0:18:37 Eli: Oh, You know know how they have that app that where uh, people can like point their phones at shit and be like, what does this say, if there's not braille. We

0:18:43 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Point the phone at a situation where it's like I

0:18:51 Eli: Tom's on the other line just, no.

0:18:55 Thomas: Put my phone to the drawn all over door and the app is like, no. No, you actually can be mad at that. Oh, I knew it. I knew I could be mad about that.

0:19:01 Tom: Right. Yeah. No.

0:19:01 Eli: Mad. Vision, or we could call it Seeing Red, huh? And

0:19:05 Thomas: Well, I don't want to limit it to just being mad about things. I think it should be a lot of things. You know, it should be a lot of

0:19:11 Eli: The Only Emotion I'm capable of at this point, I think, I think rage and sleep are the two we should recognize. It's okay for you to be asleep, it's okay.

0:19:14 Thomas: Yeah, exactly.

0:19:21 Tom: To go back to your, your, about drawing on stuff, to this day I'll tell you, Thomas, that when moved out of our house, and you know, we got a bunch of new shit, I was moving stuff out of Aislinn's room, and I don't think that there was a surface her room that had not been drawn on and colored on. And of, of me, though, is just like, all right, but that's her shit, you know what I mean? She didn't take that and draw all over other people's shit for the most part. She did a little bit when she was young, young, but the most part, she kept that impulse, that whatever that is, I don't have it. That's right, hard for my personally to identify with. I don't like drawing at all.

0:19:53 Thomas: Really, Tom? You don't have a bunch of writing on your own walls? That's like, ah, budget due today to

0:19:54 Tom: So I just get Right. Even when I was a kid, I just like, like I hate drawing. Visual, like, arts are not my thing. So clearly, clearly, this is something that matters like so much to her. And I will say also, Aislinn is like a little magpie of just like little art supplies, and art supply for her can include all the things you tried to throw in the garbage because they're legitimately just garbage, right? And she'll like fish them out, and it creates a lot of chaos. She, a bit of chaos.

0:20:15 Eli: For

0:20:23 Tom: But also, it's, yeah, that's just who she is. You, I get your impulse, like, I want to like tamp down on that real hard and be like, but I like to have a clean house, so because I like the clean house, you can't be. You, and I think that's the tension that you're sort of like exploring there, is like, yeah, there's these things that I like that I want, and then there's things that are like deeply meaningful to you. And I think that part of the way that you can try to work with navigating some of that is to extend some of her creative boundaries outside of just her room. So for Aislan, for example, in the living room, and this was just phrasing because she was just the magpie of, of craft shit, she also had like a separate set of cubbies full of baskets where all of her little crafty shit was supposed to go. I say supposed to, too, because it didn't, 93 percent of the time. But the idea was that she, she wasn't limited. The

0:20:23 Thomas: That's the best, though. Yeah. Yeah.

0:21:14 Eli: You, intention

0:21:15 Tom: Intention was good, but she wasn'T limited only to like you only get to be creative in these like small spaces like

0:21:19 Thomas: Yeah. Not really how creative people work. Hey, can you express your creativity in precisely this small rectangular box right here.

0:21:28 Eli: Well it's it's

0:21:29 Tom: So me, my creative, like, I like to have a space, like, I like, to my office, it's closed off, it's walled off. This is where I feel like this is my space to be creative, you know

0:21:36 Eli: On the walls, like Proust, uh, a similar vein, because my creativity fits into a box called my computer, it's even harder for me to like make space in my mind and heart for other people, because I'm like, oh, no, buddy, come here, come here, come here, look, daddy writes the jokes he wants to write on this same envelope he's been using since 2001, and he puts them next to his computer, and he writes them in whatever order he wants to, and is this how art works, so can we do this forever, you wanna, huh, we're doing Bible, peace theater later today

0:21:38 Tom: Right, oh, my

0:22:08 Thomas: I did get Phoebe into the iPad, because you I was like, oh, I have this iPad. I don't use much. And there's this pencil and you can do any color. And she did do that for a while. It is nice because there's no cleanup. But then, you know. Inevitably, she forgets and probably draws like with real pen on the iPad.

0:22:10 Eli: Yep.

0:22:25 Eli: Yeah, I, my son just wants to watch Marvel videos on YouTube on the iPad, and he, with his screen time, and tried using his screen time for other stuff, being like, hey buddy, like, look, we have access to speech on chat gbt do you want to talk to chat gpt And we have Dolly three, you can ask it to make you any pictures you want, and look, here's a cool educational website, here's Scratch one and two, and he's like, if you don't turn on those fucking Marble, this doesn't count.

0:22:25 Tom: God, yep, yeah, so

0:22:49 Thomas: Yeah.

0:22:50 Eli: This does not count as a part of my hour, asshole.

0:22:50 Thomas: Yeah. Stop. The Timer, yeah.

0:22:52 Eli: Yeah. Exactly, literally, literally. Reclaiming my time, he, it's very funny, so we, we set a timer, we do warnings and all that for screen time, and he has started, if I leave the room when a timer is going that I have like set on my phone to show him how much time he is left, he will pause it while I'm gone, and I'll come back in and find him just desperately scrabbling at the screen to be like, it's normal, normal, yeah.

0:23:10 Thomas: I'm oh, nice, oh, Man.

0:23:19 Tom: And he also has a temperature of 145 degrees, he's gonna stay home sick just from school today, yeah.

0:23:25 Eli: Exactly.

0:23:19 Thomas: Yeah Gosh. Is going to be the version of this that gets bad, you know, is it going to be like, oh, I don't care that my kid, doing you a little bit of crack cocaine, and then it's like, oh, but you went into fentanyl, I know fentanyl was a boundary that you shouldn't have, you know, is that going to be that, like, what's good, you know what I mean? Like, what's going to be the thing where it's like, well, I'm not mad because I don't care about this, but then, oh shit, you took it too far.

0:23:49 Eli: Yeah.

0:23:49 Thomas: And you Fuck.

0:23:50 Tom: Well, Courtney, Eli, all our kids are doing heroin, I think, that's except for Max

0:23:52 Thomas: Okay.

0:23:53 Eli: The kids are doing, if you mess up, that's when they do heroin,

0:23:53 Tom: Yeah right, if you make any mistake, they're all going to be doing heroin. I don't know, man, like, I, I really do think that you, you can have a pretty relaxed, at least, maybe it depends on your kids, and it probably does, more than anything else, right, because good parenting in my view is always child-centered parenting, that, that specific to the kids, but like, sounds like Phoebe doesn't mean any harm by any of this. She's just expressing her creativity, right?

0:24:17 Tom: Yeah. And she's not being openly defiant. She'S just forgetting something. Mean, or is she? I guess let me ask. Is she?

0:24:16 Eli: Max means only harm, oh,

0:24:15 Thomas: No, she didn't really yeah yeah she gets openly defiant the minute that I try to tell her not to do something, but yeah, when she's just on her own, she's not doing it to be defiant, she, she just has that extreme insecurity reaction to any correction of any kind, where she gets super, you, defiant and can't handle that she did anything wrong, even if it's the slightest thing.

0:24:29 Tom: Okay.

0:24:41 Tom: Yeah. And I know you've probably done this, but think maybe in terms of redirect rather than corrections. I did that for Finn for a long time when he was little, because he's very sensitive, and he's still very sensitive to any kind of like dad's disapproval, right, any kind of dad's disapprovel would just completely crumple him. He's fucking going on 17. And I think if I gave him a fucking side eye, that boy would start sobbing.

0:24:41 Thomas: Yeah yeah yeah

0:25:02 Eli: That sounds so good I would love that, I would love that so much. I would love for my son to give any fucks about how I fucking care, y'all. 'All.

0:25:07 Thomas: Yeah you

0:25:12 Tom: But what I did find is that, is, I could pretty comfortably redirect him, and then once he was redirected, explain it. So for example, you, if you catch Phoebe, for example, doing something like, I just, you know, she's drawing in the wrong place, you know, without being upset about it, without any recrimination, you could redirect or be like, hey, wait a second, Phoeby, we let's use some paper, that's a great drawing, I love what you're working on, but we need to keep our drawing on paper. I got this like big giant rollout sheet of paper that you can spread all over the floor, and you can, you know, write on or do whatever, however you're going to redirect her.

0:25:40 Thomas: Make a good point wait, is it easier to just cover my entire house with paper, floor to ceiling, every door

0:25:47 Tom: We did get the big giant rollout sheets that you could roll out. They're hundreds of feet long and you just roll them out across the floor and then they draw on them however they wanted. But if you redirect her and then once she's redirected, explain it to her. Then you can involve her in the cleanup too. That way she's not feeling, she's not having that sort of reaction, you

0:25:48 Thomas: Yeah I think I'm definitely gonna do that, yeah, gonna help clean this door, then I'm realizing, oh, I just clean up after everyone literally all day, that's, it's like what my whole life is. So maybe I need to maybe need to make Lydia clean something in front of me. Yeah.

0:26:14 Eli: Yup.

0:26:10 Tom: Yeah. So you're eliminating the natural consequences. How's Lydia going to learn if there's no natural consequences?

0:26:22 Eli: Yeah.

0:26:22 Thomas: Yeah. I don't know. It never will. But it's

0:26:25 Eli: You just walk into the room with Lydia. Oh, there was we also talk about, I'm so tired of fucking parents speak. I hate it so much. I ate it so mucho. I've read so many books and they're like, you gotta do this, man. You gotta do it. Or he's going to do heroin, but I cannot wait until the day I want someone to fire a starting pistol on the moment. I can be be like, hey, that fucking sucks, stop it, stop it, that's stupid and dumb and I hate it. Right? If I say stupid and dum now, he's on a talk show in 10 years. But the minute I can insult my son and he has post -modern irony enough to accept it, I might, like, my level of tension and worry is gonna plummet. It's gonna be amazing. Oh.

0:26:25 Thomas: OK.

0:27:07 Tom: What kind of parents speak to you, Mick? I

0:27:08 Thomas: Yeah. I know. I want... Now I want to... Oh, uh-oh, that's

0:27:12 Eli: Hey, buddy. Oh, no, we dropped it on the ground. This fucking bullshit, shit, assholery, fucking asses. Shit.

0:27:15 Tom: Oh my God. I would never do this I do not what no no

0:27:22 Eli: Yeah. You gotta do it you

0:27:26 Thomas: Why all your kids

0:27:26 Tom: You you don't have to do it eli I love you buddy you don t have I

0:27:26 Thomas: Do heroin, Tom.

0:27:30 Eli: Do have to? No, you're gonna say that and I'm gonna go upstairs. My my

0:27:32 Thomas: Don't tell Eli he doesn't have to do that because I want him to do it more.

0:27:34 Eli: You can't Tom, you can't, they'll take him away, the government will take him away. Your

0:27:38 Tom: Okay that s fair I know that you only have two modes

0:27:41 Eli: Internal metric is somewhere sane, I'll walk upstairs and be like, what's up, chuckle fucker, BAM, that's what you get, fucking cookie. That was me kicking an object by, by the way, in case anyone was not having fun in that visual. It's a fucking Cookie Monster. I don't want to listen to Cookie Monster again. I take Cookie Monster Tomy and I shove it up my ass. That's what I do. I shove it all the way up my ass because it's less painful than listening to the Cookie Monster tell me one more time. Can't put Tomy on repeat. I don't know what to tell you, asshole.

0:28:12 Eli: See, this is why we need the Miss Rachel speak. I'm We're going to Miss Rachel Speak until he's 18. And on his 18th birthday, the cake's just going to be like, Like, daddy swears a lot now.

0:28:22 Thomas: Oh, yeah. With now that your kids are older than ours, um, do you think this has any bad consequences, is there anything like, oh, I was too permissive here and now, yeah, that's true, they just don't know which end of the shovel does the shoveling. I don't have those two things are correlated or not and related.

0:28:23 Tom: My god uh yeah I not

0:28:30 Eli: No, are you kidding? They're like, we'd like to get wild tonight and watch a PG -13 movie.

0:28:41 Eli: Max is never going to need to shovel. It's perfect.

0:28:43 Tom: Don't know man like I don't want to say that this would work for everybody that's why I always like caveat and really do believe in the child approach with it you know your kid well enough to know what is going to work but But like, I also look at like, you kids draw on themselves. They still do. And I hate it. I literally hate it, it makes me fucking crazy. I think it looks like absolute shit.

0:29:02 Eli: They look dirty.

0:29:03 Tom: It does, it looks, you walk around and you fucking look dirty. And I don't hold back from being like, why would you draw on yourself? That looks terrible. I like it, but it looks bad. I'm just telling you the truth. Like, I love you. You look like a guy who drew a bunch of weird shit all over your arm, buddy. Like, I'll say it like that, that's not a good look, don't draw a whole bunch of shit on your arm, but that's like as far as I go with it.

0:29:03 Eli: Yeah. Mm -hmm.

0:29:26 Thomas: And then They'll be like, well, I'm just noticing now that you have tattoos, dad, so I've

0:29:29 Tom: Right, yeah. These are professionals, you can pay a professional to do it.

0:29:33 Thomas: Never looked before, but Now. Now that I think about it. Oh, wait, those aren't just you drawing on yourself, dad. Oh, okay.

0:29:39 Tom: This seems hypocritical, did you get that by the way, yeah, No, no, so

0:29:42 Thomas: Yeah, exactly.

0:29:44 Eli: Did you get that as you came over to make this point to me? You probably, like, drew it yourself. That's a way to score one on me. That's good one. I get it.

0:29:50 Tom: Like, I'm not saying you can't criticize like it, but I guess that's very different than like, you go wash that off right now. You're not allowed to do that. That sort of stuff. Like, I just don't do that stuff. I criticize kids all the time just in the way that I did.

0:29:58 Eli: Can you criticize? Criticize? I feel so bad about doing that because I'm just such a mean gargoyle. And again, I really do want to emphasize here, I know you have a sane metric for how you feel about the world, which is the difference between you and I. I'm such a gargoyle, I don't think I'd ever be able to give myself permission because Anna will walk in the room and she'll be like, Hey, did you do a tight five on our son's new girlfriend? And I'll be Like, yeah, Tom said I can criticize. Did you like the metaphors and comparisons I used? You look mad. Why is my suitcase here? Right? Like, I don't know. I need that I can point and be like, can I criticize that?

0:30:36 Tom: Well,

0:30:28 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, exactly, we need the app. Oh my God, Sane Dad app. We are something, you know, we gotta come up with a good, oh

0:30:44 Eli: Seeing red. Absolutely.

0:30:42 Tom: Think it like But again, like, my criticize the kids differently based on where they're at developmentally, and also based on like how that relationship that I have with them works. And like what I'm criticizing. So for Finn, I'll give you an example. Finn is growing a mustache, but he can't grow a good mustache. He's growing a creeper mustache because he's 17 and it looks literally terrible, it looks so bad

0:31:04 Eli: Fuck yeah, he is.

0:31:02 Thomas: No, no way. That's where I draw the line. I'm not fucking A. Damn it, Tom. Ah, you always come up with these perfect examples. I think I have my handle on parenting. And then I'm going to be like, no, I will literally strap Arlo down and shave his fucking face. I can't do it. If he ever grows a goatee, done. I mean, he's out of the house. Out of the family. Not even.

0:31:22 Tom: I tell Finn, I was like, dude, you look like you're driving a fucking ice cream truck with that thing. What is going on? That is not a good look, buddy. Like, that is not a good look if like

0:31:32 Thomas: Like, if you're going to abduct somebody, then yeah, that's a good look. That Do what you're gonna do today? Is that your plans? Is your plan? One o'clock. Abduct somebody? Is that you're playing? Oh, okay. It's not? Then maybe shave that fucking thing.

0:31:35 Eli: Yeah, no.

0:31:37 Tom: I I kind of do that with him. I'll be like, but, like, I'm also not going to forbid him from growing it, you know what I mean, like, but I'll tease him about it, or, like, when it's time to get a haircut, the boys don't ever seem to want to get a haircut, so I'll tell all and be like, hey, you look just gross, your head looks gross, everything about you looks gross, we need to get an haircut.

0:31:46 Thomas: Yeah, maybe

0:31:47 Eli: Yeah.

0:31:57 Thomas: We Did your dad have the old-timey ones? Because my dad had the old-timey stuff, because he's old, from the 1800s essentially, and would be like, oh, yeah, put a little, uh, milk on that, let the cat lick it off, is what his thing was for, bad, you know, like for facial hair, where it's like, you know, a kid trying to grow it, I don't know, that was what they said back in the day. I don't t know why

0:32:10 Tom: Yeah.

0:32:15 Eli: That's great. Great, I don't like to give your dad a lot of credit, but that's a fucking awesome burn. And I want to keep it in our lives. It was, it was roast. This that's Exactly what I'm talking about, Thomas, exactly. Oh,

0:32:19 Tom: It really is

0:32:19 Thomas: Oh, Eli, if there's one thing my dad could do, Yeah, actually, maybe let that, uh, be, let, take that lesson. Yeah, uh, maybe you just take a look in, not the mirror, take a look in my mirror and see is this what you

0:32:37 Eli: Yeah, works from home terrible mental illness, only good at insulting people. You think I haven't made these connections before? I'm destroying all my mics when I die, so my son can't start a "that guy fucking sucked" podcast, right?

0:32:52 Thomas: Yeah.

0:32:52 Tom: Don't know, man, I think it's like, like, you got to know the kids, you got to know what, like, makes them vulnerable, versus what's going to make them laugh a little bit, you know? Like, when I joke with Finn about that, he's laughing, you know what I mean? I know him, so what I joke with him about, something he was sensitive about, never in a million years, like, I would never make that same kind of commentary about something he was sensitive about. So, I, I think you can criticize your kids, I think you do it in a fun but honest way, as a way to, like, deliver feedback to them, you, and they'll laugh and goof around about it, you know, like, I, but I think that's a line you've got to draw and develop with each kid. Yeah.

0:33:22 Thomas: Was, was gonna, gonna say, say, Tom, I'm, I'm not reacting to you, I'm reacting to, like, Like, that's probably some good analogy for this that Eli will know. But that's a thing that, like, other people can mess around with, but I can't. Like, because

0:33:33 Tom: It sounds like both of you guys are nervous about that

0:33:34 Thomas: I know the whole, the whole evil of my entire, well, but for different reasons, I think. Like, the hole, like. Know You that hereditary or whatever. Like, if we have an evil demon in my family, my bloodline, it's that.

0:33:35 Tom: Yeah

0:33:45 Eli: What's What's gonna knock Phoebe's head, head off on a passing telephone pole. 100.

0:33:48 Thomas: No, it's like, it's the evil demon that we could awake is the, oh, it's okay to make fun of your kid a little bit. And Tom, I don't think you're you're possessed as a household by an evil demon. So you're like, yeah, you can make fun of your kids slightly. What's the worst that can happen? And I'm like, well, a dimension demon spawn could come and take my kid's head off with a telephone pole is what could happen. I can't, I'm not messing with it.

0:33:54 Eli: Thank you, Thomas, yeah.

0:33:58 Tom: Okay.

0:34:10 Eli: You saying to me, and Thomas, you can joke with your kids a little bit, is like you saying to me, you can have a little cocaine in your house, right? Like, we all know there should be zero cocaine in my house, ever, at all times, under any circumstances.

0:34:20 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:34:27 Tom: This is fair, no, this Is fair, this is a know-thyself moment. There this is definitely a know-thyself moment, yeah.

0:34:28 Eli: Yes. Who

0:34:29 Thomas: Yeah. Can moderate. Moderate. You look to me like a guy who can moderate.

0:34:35 Tom: That's how I'm often described, yeah.

0:34:36 Eli: Maybe we get Tom to roast our kids for, for us, hey, right? It's Tom's on the phone.

0:34:40 Thomas: Ooh, that's actually a really good idea. Same dad app is going to have that. That's an add on that you buy where it's like, you can get your kid roasted for something, but it'll be like a wholesome amount of roasting that won't. Yeah.

0:34:46 Eli: Yeah. We're at 99 cent microcharge.

0:34:53 Thomas: Per roast. And it won't ruin their life. Like it'll like, oh, teasing you a little bit instead of like, Oh my God, that was devastating.

0:34:53 Eli: Yeah, right.

0:35:00 Tom: I'm not roasting the kids, like it's vulgarity for charity, you know what I mean like I'm I'm not, that's not, yeah,

0:35:05 Thomas: Oh,

0:35:03 Eli: No, no, I was pretty sure that wasn't the case. Seeing as they're still in the house.

0:35:07 Thomas: Got a question for Tom for, and and Hayley if she were here, now, because I'm seeing a lot of similarities between Phoebe and Aislinn and, which I love because Aisling is just is a creative, beautiful delight. I am, uh, wondering if it's the same thing where Phoebe's fashion choices are just like, don't even know how to describe it, it's it's another version of the drawing on on the door, but less, I don't know if bad's not the word, but like, so like, for example, Lydia wanted to take family pictures yesterday, and somehow we, we lucked into barely getting those done before Arlo got a sickness that I can't even describe, a hideous pimple face, weird sickness thatI hope he's okay. But we got, we squeezed it in and

0:35:13 Tom: My teenage son still have that,

0:35:44 Thomas: Wasn't in charge of the baby while, Lydia was in charge of kind like of getting the kids ready a little bit because, oh, let's be real. She's going to have more preferences on what they wear. And I'm not. Although I do enjoy their little outfits and stuff. I asked at one point, I asked her how it's going. I was like, oh. How's it going? What are we going to wear? And by the way, after they're done, then it was like. Okay.

That'll give dad an indication of what the fuck dad's supposed to wear to these things. You know, because I'd like to see what the family's wearing. Then, okay. I'll kind of match that level of whatever dress. Us. So I, after, a while, after what seemed like a while I asked Lydia, I'm like, Hey, how's it, how is it? What am I wearing? How's it going? I'm in tux. Am I doing a casual? Are we doing a beach look? What are we doing?

And Lydia was just like, I just don't fucking, she doesn't talk like that, but she essentially gave me the look of, I don't know, because Phoebe just decides she's going to wear stuff that I don't want to even infect her with any of my views of this because she is wearing, you know, shorts over leggings with a swimsuit top and a skirt, like,

0:36:40 Thomas: It's just, it's, it's chaos, but it's actually really cool. Yeah, like, she'll put stuff together and I'm like, that's either you're gonna get made fun of or you'll be a king of the entire school. I actually don't know which, but guess she'll find out, you know. And I wonder if Aislinn had that same thing, like, she just, man, she'll just put the most interesting ensembles together and I love it so much. And I really hope she doesn't get, like, teased out of it, you know, like I'm really dreading that. Yeah.

0:36:39 Tom: I love it, right, right, Yeah, like she, she's, she would, and she still does, maybe, do, I don't know, I don't think it's a full share level of outfit changes in a day, but I'm, I'm not sure, but has she has strong feelings, and she always has, about her clothes. And contrast that with Donovan, like, for example, who's on the total end of the spectrum, where, like, Donavan, for the longest time, was like, if you just pulled out, like, mismatched clothes and laid him out for him, he would put him on, like, he literally had no idea, no preferences, now he does, yeah right, but the point is, like, she has preferences, right? And Aislinn had strong feelings and strong preferences. And I think that is something to be encouraged.

0:37:19 Eli: This

0:37:37 Thomas: Well that's what Phoebe's doing, but intentionally yeah

0:37:48 Tom: I think the preferences is something to be really encouraged. But then I also think it's something that has to be shaped and guided. And we do talk to the kids, especially now that they're getting older, look, about, clothes are a form of communication to the world. And we have to be conscious and cognizant of what they communicate and whether they're communicating the things that you want them to when you're being interpreted by other people. And we have this conversation with Donovan, right, because he's going to college and, he's, when he goes to college, we want him to dress a little nicer when he gets there so he can make a better impression on his professors, who can ask for letters of recommendation, get internships, do the sorts of things that the clothes shouldn't matter. But they do. And we tell them, like, just take the whole shouldn't thing, put

0:37:48 Thomas: I love it yeah yeah yep

0:38:30 Tom: It in a bucket, seal it up and throw it away. It's fucking nonsense. The reality is that people are going to perceive you a certain way and you want to do the work of managing that perception. We have to be conscious of the audience that our clothes are being presented to. We have these really real conversations with the kids about the idea of clothes as a form of communication and being conscious of that.

0:38:49 Eli: Is how I can return the favor. Tom is is can get on the FaceTime and I can be to Donovan. I can and be like, this is how I dress all the time. Now I

0:38:57 Thomas: Be like, "Oh god, oh god, to make it stop, dad." I'll wear the suit, I'll wear the suit down, I promise!

0:39:00 Tom: No, no.

0:39:03 Thomas: Let's go get it tailored!

0:39:02 Eli: Have a quadruple XL t -shirt that says hollow inside with a pumpkin. It's June. I'm wearing basketball shorts. I haven't taken off for 16 days like these.

0:39:11 Tom: Oh, my God.

0:39:07 Thomas: Oh! Oh! Oh God! No! Let me wake up! Please, let me wake up! Yeah, I,

0:39:15 Eli: All right. Behave yourself or I'll make you look at my office. Okay. Have

0:39:21 Thomas: And Think that it is a massive, almost magical asset as a human, I think, to be particular in certain ways, because ways that I'm particular are ways that I use to do like a good job at stuff. Like when I'm particular about fucking, I don't know, math, like I use that to to be amazing at my job before I quit it for podcasting. Like, should work a certain way, you know, is what I felt like.

And, uh, when it comes to audio, I think things should sound a certain way, and like, I do my best to make that happen. And, but there's some, there's people and, this is probably everybody for certain things. Like for me, clothes are a challenge to do that. I'm better now, but, but there are people like I've, I've had a whole ass friend in college who It felt like his whole. Everything was that like, everything was no preference. You Know, and sucked, it was hard to really do anything with him or care about much, that you know, like we try to hang out and it's just like he's a neutral robot just there to kind of go along with. And it was just like, man, have a, have a preference. You

0:40:06 Tom: Yeah yeah

0:40:25 Eli: An opinion. That's the The key and peel Sketch, express any opinion about anything. Now he's

0:40:26 Tom: No

0:40:26 Thomas: Yeah. You Know what's actually the best thing, like, it hypothetically would be to have, have a friend, in especially this day and age where, you know, like older Tom, I don't know if you're technically a millennial. I forget. Older millennial?

0:40:39 Tom: I'm

0:40:40 Eli: A boomer Golden Generation Stone Age Thank

0:40:40 Tom: Gen x

0:40:41 Thomas: Silent generation. Yeah. Okay. We'll say Gen X. Yeah. It's like these days having a friend who's like, hey, let's go to this place and do this. That'll be great. We're like, let me do this for you. Let's do this. Let's fucking amazing. Cause the rest of us are so tired and, and like barely, know, we're like, oh, I guess we can go out. That having someone who's like someone in the friend group who doesn't have kids probably who's Like let's Get, let's go to this. Oh, I'd love to do this. Oh, we'll fucking go to this place. And we, and it's like, yes, please, please have a preference. I would love to be a part of this, and I would like to be part of it, to do something that you want to do that will clearly make you happy. You, that vanilla no preference ever person. It, it's Fine in some aspects of life, but yeah, if it's everything, it's just, it sucks. It's like exhausting.

0:40:43 Tom: Oh,

0:41:01 Eli: You, Thomas I

0:41:18 Tom: That's horrible.

0:41:24 Eli: Am that in my friend group, but increasingly as I get older and more insane, the experiences are terrible, but like, no one wants to be like, Eli's not in charge anymore, so I'm just like, we're going to Columbus, Ohio in January, and all my friends are like, like, ah, okay, I guess we're going to Columbus, Ohio in January, yep, exactly, I know, I know four of my friend group, who, if I was like, guys, we're doing a fucking Zero Dark 30, we'RE gonna go try and, they'd be like, I don't know why, and I'd be, like, I already put it in everyone's Google Calendar, like I already invited you and then accepted it, because you guys gave me access to your calendars, so you might as well just show up, get your M16, oh,

0:41:46 Thomas: We're going to see what we can do about this cartel. Come on, everybody.

0:42:02 Thomas: All right. I'll grab a gun.

0:42:11 Tom: To be much more of the go-along part. Like most things, I'm like pretty chill about most things that you can't have no preferences, right? You can have no desires or goals or preferences or just like, yeah, yeah, I don't want to do that. Let's do that instead. No feedback, nothing to push back against or like that fucking annoying.

0:42:28 Thomas: Well, and I know, Tom, you're not like that with a lot of things like

0:42:31 Tom: No. Yeah. Like there's a lot of stuff where I'm like, yeah, I'll do that because do the same thing. Like our friendship is like sort of based on this. So like he went hunting with me. He didn't want go hunting, but I was like, Yeah, man, I really want to this thing. He's like, yeah, like for the sake of hanging out, I'll go do this thing you want. And I've done that that a million times, you that push pull is great. Right. Versus the person who's like, I only do the things I like to do. I never do the Things I don't like to do, but also the fucking wishy washy.

0:42:51 Thomas: Mm-hmm. Or or they're just like, oh, yeah, OK, yeah. I'll go, I guess. Whatever. I don't care.

0:42:57 Tom: Yeah. And then they don't have fun and they got like a fucking big stick in the mud about everything. Like, right.

0:42:58 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, you never find out like if they like anything.

0:43:03 Tom: Cause has ever tried With like an open mind, which is something we're struggling with, with the kids now is that like some of the kids, it can be be very difficult to get them to try something with an open mind versus just like not wanting to engage that sort of like teen apathy that sets in.

0:43:03 Eli: Yeah, that's the worst. Um.

0:43:19 Eli: Yeah.

0:43:19 Tom: That's just like, yeah, it's.

0:43:19 Thomas: But

0:43:19 Eli: Especially When It's life stuff which is super because this is what my parents went through with me right is they were like please stop rereading the Harry Potter books we want to take you to like vacation we want to go on an adventure we're gonna do something as a family and I'd be like I need to sit in this part of the couch and reread the Harrey Potter books and text my girlfriend on the dot on the screenless screenless phone that I have and that is what I want to do with my entire existence and if you you want me to go to the Grand Canyon? You're mean. And can only imagine the frustration there again. Like why would not be able to criticize my kid? Cause I would just be like, all right, well, let's go down to the Chuckle Hut. Daddy's got 15 minutes on what a piece of shit you are. Let's just go on down. It's a two drink minimum. Dad's got your Cokes.

0:44:04 Tom: Well, like I will say that there's a mantra that I sort of live by in every relationship, and that is I can't care about this more than you do. Like I'll care. I'll care a lot. I don't care as much as you, but at a certain point, even especially with the kids, I can'T care about, you know, I 'LL tell them like, look, I, CAN'T care about your toys being not broken more than YOU do. I can.

I CAN' care about like your success moving into college more than you do. I can't care more than you. I will care as much as you, I can definitely do that. And if you care and I care and we, and we both care together, like we'll get really far. I'm I'm an asset on your team. And I'll tell them this. I'm, my weight and then some, but if you don't care, I am not going to do that caring for you.

Like, like you can bring some, some energy to this equation, or you'll find that I'm very certain to back off of trying to help. When they kind of understand that, like, oh, OK, I need to bring something to this. It doesn't always work. No, it doesn't all work. But, you know, it is something that protects me as a person from pouring my fucking energy into a bottomless pit.

0:45:14 Eli: All right, gentlemen, before we go, my wife begged me to stop telling Scandinavian puns, so I told her, fine, fine, I'm Finnish. Uh,

0:45:23 Tom: Oh, sure.

0:45:25 Thomas: You

0:45:30 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

0:46:09 Eli: Hey, buddy, oh no, we dropped it on the ground. This