DOD87: Oh Great, I'm Turning In My Dad

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Tom: To Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's already dialed 9-1-1. I'm Tom Curry. I am joined, as always, by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:37 Eli: Wow, all right guys, you want to start your apology? What order do you want to go with your apologies in? Did you... Tom, you apologized first the last time, so Thomas, I don't know if you want open up with sort of a quiet, sort of heartfelt apology, then Tom can come sort of invigorated in.

0:00:53 Thomas: Want to skip to the part where I wonder how you're even justifying this joke. Like, I just want, I really, I actually just want to hear that part.

0:01:00 Eli: The perverts have risen up, Thomas! The pervert's have risen up and spoken, like, I want to to use an appropriate metaphor, like the slaves escaping via the underground railroad, our listeners have spoken in many means of communication with me, the uh, Facebook, the Instagram, the phone number, they just, they all reach out in her in huddles in huddled masses, they reach out to tell me, Eli, lie, your take on the last episode was amazing, sorry, I I interrupted your apology, Thomas, I understand you were coming in, you were come in and quiet okay I

0:01:13 Tom: I don't number

0:01:36 Thomas: I had a bit of a different perception of what happened after that

0:01:39 Eli: Know you did, and that's because you're fucking, look, I don't like revisiting last episodes and I have no arguments to make, I want to be very clear, this is not about ever making exchanging an idea or having anything to say, but our dear Thomas, who I love with my entire heart, wrote this Rasmussen ass poll that I have to share with the larger podcast audience for comedy god reasons alone so

0:01:57 Thomas: Yeah yeah so what's gonna happen here, folks, is um, has relied on muddying the issue a lot and not you actually making the point in the way that is best so what he's reacting to is what I I decided to do was I said, I'm really tired of everyone muddying the issue. Let's actually answer the question, like the actual question that we want to have answered. Let me write something that actually does that. And the poll is like, I think 90%, 97% for Tom and I.

0:02:13 Eli: I always do yes the standard standard tactics it was 96 when you sent it over, uh and I don't make fun of your debate tactics so I don't know why you're

0:02:35 Thomas: Yeah. So I think, so what's about to happen is Eli finds the idea of him being wrong so absurd that Yeah. Get a load of this.

0:02:38 Eli: Okay

0:02:41 Tom: Look what happens if you know if you frame the question accurately oh wait no that's

0:02:47 Thomas: So, go ahead. Having said that, go ahead.

0:02:51 Tom: Hmm okay OK, I

0:02:51 Eli: I want to be very clear that no part of this is about me thinking that I am right or have any good arguments, nor did I say that last week in my own defense, right? I just want to talk about Thomas's fucking Fox News ass poll that he put in our Facebook group, and I want to bring it. I want to bring it to reality. It's

0:03:08 Thomas: Nah. Wrong. It's from studying philosophy, my friend. We have nerds in the audience who will recognize that I used the language of philosophy to actually distill the issues that we're going. To compare that to Fox News, I'm sorry. I can't let that joke stand. They don't know what any of that is. So,

0:03:27 Eli: Too

0:03:27 Tom: Before we launch into that, though, like I do want to suggest that maybe before we talk about the ethics of monogamy or ethical non -monogamy again, maybe we should settle the question of the Israel -Palestinian conflict issue just to keep it light, keep it light, you know, something that people like really don't have a lot of skin in the game.

0:03:27 Eli: Yes

0:03:38 Thomas: You're right. Let's tackle that real quick. Uh,

0:03:44 Eli: It's A hot and fresh It's

0:03:46 Tom: Yeah. Woo.

0:03:46 Eli: A hot And fresh. No, let's talk about something that matters, Tom. I don't know anything about that, all right. As I was saying, before I was rudely interrupted, by and again, I want to use the appropriate metaphor, the slave brave master, if you will, in this situation, if my people, my brave perverts are the escaping underground rail roadies. I'm not in the Facebook group because a Facebook group tried to kill me earlier in the year. But this, this is the blasphemous poll that you podcast listener missed out on your chance. Sorry, all but 4 % of you missed out On your chance to come to the the defense of reason and sanity. Thomas, do you want to do a reading or should

0:03:50 Tom: Well,

0:04:04 Thomas: Jeez.

0:04:30 Thomas: No,

0:04:30 Eli: I do a sarcastic?

0:04:31 Thomas: Go ahead. By all means.

0:04:31 Eli: Okay. You know, actually, now I'm quite curious. Thank you, Thomas. Thank you for being curious at this point after I raise all my great points. I'd like to get as good a poll as we can here about the only fans topic. Lots of ways the question is getting muddied and reframed, biasing, and so forth. So please consider Consider the following hypothetical. All already Fox News, already Tucker Carlson. Just throwing it out there.

0:04:50 Tom: What

0:04:55 Thomas: They don't know what most of those words mean.

0:04:56 Tom: The fuck? What?

0:04:56 Eli: Hypotheticals. I don't know, Thomas, and that's not the point. The point is you use hypotheticals. So did Hitler. Person X is in a committed relationship. Let's say like one plus years, but not married or engaged. No kids, house, etc. So serious for sure, but by no means have they built a life together. One day, X's partner tells X that they very much want to start an OnlyFans. I think we should take pure economic desperation out of the equation. You would love that, wouldn't you, Thomas? You would loved it if we would do that and financially. X's answer is, I'm not comfortable sharing that part of you with the rest of the world. Sorry, I didn't bias it enough. Of, I'm not comfortable sharing that part of you with the rest of the world.

0:05:44 Thomas: That's just the wording from the original example, all right, that's

0:05:48 Eli: He means you're vejussi. Anyways, if this is something you feel you must do, then I don't feel like I could continue in this relationship, whore, end quote.

0:05:48 Thomas: Fine well

0:06:01 Eli: I may have, that's,

0:06:01 Thomas: That would help you because you're you want it to be the asshole, so yeah.

0:06:06 Eli: Yeah, that is why I did a villain read for it.

0:06:06 Thomas: Oh. Okay. Gotcha.

0:06:08 Eli: Yeah, the question then is, X the asshole in a necessary sense? Okay, see, this is where you get Fox News in a necessity sense. Yeah, this is, this is political talk. I'm just a low-down man of the people, salt of the earth, and I don't know things about necessary, Thomas, okay. My people, the perverts, the underclass, the shall we say Jews in line to the concentration camp ovens, if you will, we just speak in plain English, unlike this Facebook poll that I lost by 92 percent. So no matter how favorable you draw up any and all hypothetical facts in X's favor, ergo, they've always communicated very

0:06:08 Thomas: Gotcha, sorry. Yeah.

0:06:18 Thomas: No. Philosophy. Yeah. Yeah. What? I didn't say

0:06:52 Eli: Healthy boundary around things like this, they're very great partner in every other sense, etc. So in every universe in which they answered how they did above, they are the asshole? That seems like it makes sense. That seems like a reasonable question, doesn't it? Let's read on. Or, is X not necessarily the asshole. That's crazy. You hear that, Thomas. You're saying that either something has to be true or not necessarily true, and just because me and my band of doe-eyed, sweet-mouthed, open-hearted perverts dared to question your patriarchal rule, we are wrong,

0:06:52 Thomas: Ergo.

0:07:18 Thomas: Yeah.

0:07:39 Eli: So, learned nothing.

0:07:42 Thomas: Yeah, no, I actually, I was going to at least mention slightly this, like, experiment, I learned a lot, because this remember, okay, remember when I did the hard drive episode where you learned a lot about my brain, and it was hell for you?

0:07:54 Eli: I did.

0:07:54 Thomas: You're like, this is another one of those, because this is actually what my brain is doing all the time. So like when we were having this debate, this is what I'm thinking of. And then I'm like, okay, well, this is obviously everyone's going to agree with me and Tom that like, yeah, no, of course that not the asshole. And in my brain, this ist what's in my mind. But then I get a bunch of pushback, which I think is interesting because once I finally typed it all out, the wording wise, it's fucking universally, everyone's like, well yeah, okay. But it's like, alright, I need to find a way, way this is no one else's fault but mine, I

0:07:55 Eli: Yes. I agree

0:08:27 Thomas: Need to find a way to communicate what's going on in my fucking head in a way that that is more accurate to people, because it is very weird, like that, people that will be arguing with with me, and and then it turns out we don't actually disagree, that means I'm not communicating properly. So all the goal of that was is like, because your main thesis there, Eli, was that it's about uh ownership of the other person, so that that means you take away everything else. There's no, you can't do any get-out-of-jail answers of, well, the way they answered was a little asshole. No, no. You were saying that any answer that was like, other than no, this is ownership of the partner to say that they're not allowed to do nude to anyone, else. Any answer other than that, uh, distracting from the issue. And I just wanted to know how people actually felt about the, the really strong. And I say that in a sense of like, it's a strong claim, uh, strong point you were were making, and uh, the people have spoken, you're wrong, sorry about friendship

0:08:28 Eli: Correct obviously, or, Did my legion of perverts rise up and teach you a thing or two about the humble, sweet name, friendship? So much better, I agreed.

0:09:26 Thomas: No

0:09:30 Tom: Say, I I learned, read through the Facebook group and and chatted a little bit with people on the Facebook groups, and I I have to say, I did learn, I learned that uh having a shared value in an intimate relationship uh around monogamy is just inherently unethical, that's what I was taught I

0:09:44 Eli: With, that I mean I'm on that right there with you, Tom. Tom.

0:09:45 Thomas: Look, we can all agree, Tom.

0:09:48 Tom: Was thought that that sharing that ethic as as a couple is inherently unethical, and I'm glad I'm to have learned that important point. That's

0:09:50 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:09:55 Eli: You have to let us have sex with you, that is the season the series finale of Dear Old Dads is that me and Thomas get to have sex with Tom. Yeah.

0:09:58 Tom: What it is, that's yeah yeah

0:10:00 Thomas: Is I open the diaries and we have sex with Tom, crack open my dad's diaries next to a nice crackling fire. Yeah.

0:10:04 Eli: Yeah. Crack open the you read the diaries while Tom and I have sex, that's the final patreon content. But

0:10:16 Thomas: Yep. And is Hayley the asshole if she says no?

0:10:19 Eli: Yes.

0:10:20 Tom: Right, right. Yeah. Oh, for sure, right?

0:10:20 Eli: Absolutely. Yeah. And Guys, you know the only thing worse in Tom's imagination than me having sex with him while Tom reads his weird dad's diaries, it's the auto ads. That's right, they come into your podcast, much like Thomas comes in with his puritan morality, telling you to hate your body and the people who love you. Those are the auto of morality that Tom and Thomas represent here on this podcast. But worry not, for I am the patreon.com/dearolddads that is here to save you. For by giving me as, and by that I mean patreon.Dear Old Dads, as little as a dollar a month, you can hear, or you can also give it to me. I mean, I don't

0:10:33 Thomas: What's happening Yeah.

0:11:04 Eli: Recommend it Because then I got to send 30 cents to Thomas and 33 cents to Tom. But by us that money, you can avoid the auto ads and hear this podcast in the beautiful sexual anarchy sense that it was always meant to be heard, amen. I

0:11:24 Thomas: All Start the show. Okay, so I sent a podcast episode that Eli didn't listen to. That's fine. Yeah, that's okay. Didn't feel like he wanted to listen to it.

0:11:34 Eli: Actually I was too upset because uh said my arguments were pre-arena cat chow on the last episode and I was recovering, I was healing, I didn't know what it meant, but I knew that I was full of victimhood, that's why I couldn't do my homework. Yeah.

0:11:39 Tom: It was

0:11:46 Thomas: So So So, I was looking at the Washington Post podcast, and they had a really fascinating piece about a essentially Jan 6th family. I cannot believe that is a fucking thing we have, but yeah, it is. Where the son turned in the father for, you Jan 6ing. And it was the kind of thing where he, they, I guess the FBI hadn't found him, didn't know who it was, hadn't identified him, and the son turned him in.

And what I love about these things, I every time I never get tired of this, because what I love to my broken brain, except for me, I think it's actually healthier, to my brain that doesn't care, family to me is as incidental as basically anything else.

Not my immediate family, my children I love to the end of the earth and Lydia I love to the end of their, my like family that I didn't kind of choose, that family, nothing against them, but they're, that means almost nothing to me. Like they're either cool and I want to hang out with them or they're not. And I don't care. So because of my history, so when I see this podcast episode, that's like, this family is trying to reconcile. Watch as a Washington Post reporter sits in on their conversation. I, it's the funniest thing to me, it is

0:12:52 Thomas: So fucking funny.

0:12:53 Eli: No,

0:12:52 Tom: It's funny, it was such a sad episode of like

0:12:54 Thomas: Oh, it's so funny to me.

0:12:56 Eli: I I'm on team Thomas here, all the way, because 'cause it's wrong.

0:12:59 Tom: Oh

0:12:58 Thomas: Because you have, here's the situation. Let me lay out the situation real quick. The son is, Tom, let me know if I get any of this wrong. My impression is that the son is pretty lefty. The everybody else seemed, the father and the mother are diehard Trumpers, obviously. He fucking, you know, he was there on Jan 6th. So they're diehards. They're, I think, two daughters. And they're somewhere in the middle. So like one of them seems kind of right wing. The other one's like centrist because just wants everybody to get along kind of thing. Doesn't care sort of thing, and they're all talking like we're going to fix this. Like we're we're gonna the dad is

0:13:02 Tom: My god, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:13:27 Tom: No. No.

0:13:31 Eli: Yeah. Like, look,

0:13:33 Thomas: In prison.

0:13:33 Eli: We've got two good points here and we're going to find a middle. It's fucking nuts. I feel like I've maybe told this story on air before, but did I tell you guys why I stopped listening to this American life?

0:13:43 Tom: No.

0:13:43 Thomas: The main guy's too annoying sounding?

0:13:44 Eli: So I loved This American Life. I used to listen to every single episode. Then they did an episode on immigration where they focused on this woman who was the head of this immigration service in go fuck yourself, off a goink a boink, and she's like an immigrant who came here as a child and speaks four languages and got herself a degree and runs this center. And then they also interviewed a guy in his barn who was actively throwing beer cans at the wall while being interviewed, and note, 100 true, 100 real, no exaggeration whatsoever, the interviewer is like, there is a can of beer can, it's that, you, you know, Ira Glass, ner. There's a can of beer glass in the wall, in the corner. And these continue to be added to throughout our interview. And at one point someone's like, well, what about the immigrants who need to come here because otherwise they die? And he's like, I don't know about that. And it's literally, I was just like, you have to stop. You have to be like, hey, I'm so sorry everybody, you don't need to hear this.

0:14:16 Tom: No. What?

0:14:48 Thomas: Yeah,

0:14:48 Eli: And this is what it sounds like. Like the fact that they felt the need to point the microphones at the mom and dad to explain why their treason of the United States government was okay blows my fucking, because they bought the My Pillow guy's lies, yes

0:14:49 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:15:09 Tom: I don't know. I don't know that that's how, I don't' t feel like that' how the episode, I think the episode really genuinely wasn' t focusing on anyone trying to make excuses for January 6th. I felt like the episode is more about the interpersonal dynamic and the sort of rupture that is caused when somebody behaves in a way that others find reprehensible, yeah

0:15:29 Thomas: Was What? Sure, but the, but the kind of the spirit of the episode was they're going to fix this and they're going to fixed this, was not, hey, the criminal dad is sitting in prison for, like, by the way, he convicted him, I didn't look, like you into the trial or any of this shit, but like the charges they actually convicted him on, he wasn't just there. Like they said that because he kind of, at a crucial time, I think he flashed a weapon and, written like, specifically led a charge that actually they alleged and they convicted him of was significant in actually getting people to like break through. So like, took a significant role in this thing. And the backdrop is not, hey, this asshole has realized he was brainwashed and he's going to try to apologize to his family. It wasn't that. It was, all right, the whole family recognized that what the son did sucks. I'm not even joking.

0:16:19 Thomas: The whole family recognizes that it's the son's fault and they can't believe that the son has torn the family apart. Like literally that's where it started.

0:16:19 Eli: Yeah you gotta apologize for people for telling on the government that he done got that cop killed you gotta understand, son blood is thicker than water, no it isn't and you would know that if you ever knew anything, which you're incapable of knowing because of the decline of American mental health. They might as well have done an interview with a, with the son who's in the middle of a schizophrenic fugue state being like, but I am Jesus Christ, and fucking Ira Glass is like, did you want to apologize and say maybe that your son is Ira Class, and maybe we can start the healing process from there

0:16:31 Tom: But this

0:16:32 Thomas: Yeah. No, it's.

0:17:00 Tom: Is coming from Eli, who, if Max committed mass genocide on a global, on scale Eli Eli

0:17:03 Thomas: Yeah. It's interesting. Really expected you guys to be at different spots on this.

0:17:08 Eli: 100

0:17:10 Tom: Would be like, yeah man, that's cool, that's a hundred percent cool, come snuggle with me all day and like, let's have Thanksgiving dinner. So like, I think it's a little, little weird that you're having this reaction

0:17:13 Eli: 100 well here's where my line is, though, I wouldn't then do an interview about how right I was, right, we wouldn't than do a fucking sit down talk where I'd be like, and that's why it's okay for me to do that, right, my position is like, I'm not a super good person, that's a moral failing about I know it's funny because, as much as I was just joking around, like, it's also very funny because it kind of reflects on the, the polyamory thing, which is that like, part of what was interesting about that conversation is that you and Thomas were seeking to understand and clarify, and I was just like, look, here's the bit that I've come up with, and I'm sticking to it unless I get in trouble, and that's how I feel about family loyalty, and I'll also point out, because Thomas made a really good point earlier, he was like, family being incidental, and I feel very much the same way, but I also include

0:17:28 Thomas: Yeah.

0:17:37 Thomas: Yeah, I appreciate it. I appreciate it wait you

0:17:59 Tom: And

0:18:12 Eli: Like oh yeah, I, I include, like, found family in that category, so for instance, like, I have an aunt I don't talk to, right, she is a pretty relation close, who I have absolutely no interest in talking to, I talk to her occasionally because it makes my mom sad if I don't, so my mom would be like, call your aunt, and I'm like, absolutely, because I adore you, but like, the minute mama's gone, and after I've done all of mom's wishes in concerns to my aunt, we're done, I've, there's no more hell

0:18:12 Thomas: Do what, hmm okay talk about family solidarity one, Eli Bosnick's mom hopped on that Facebook question to be like, hey, fuck you, Thomas specifically, this sucks, it's the worst thing I've ever read in my life whoever did this, should kill themselves, like it's in no uncertain terms. So I, I think we know where your mom stands on that question, but I love it because they even, gosh, they featured a little bit of the son with the dad, and the dad's whole stance is, well, tell me what law I broke.

0:18:50 Eli: Yeah yeah get in there, mom, Sam, Sam Sam, fuck yeah you

0:18:52 Tom: Then

0:19:11 Thomas: Tell me what lie broke son. And he's like, well, here, yeah, here's what the fucking, I don't know, court said. And he was like, no, I didn't. And my whole thing is like, why is it on your son? It's not actually his job to tell he's not the prosecutor. If the FBI has your face on a most wanted list and, you know, like it's one thing, I can understand the decision as a family member to be like, I'm just not going to, I'm not going to call, like, depending on what it was, you, I could sympathize with the decision of like, I'm not going to actively hide him, but I'm not going to be the one that like turns him in, but the idea that like, no, you actually have to hide him because of something like, you need to

0:19:11 Eli: Broke so many of them yeah

0:19:14 Tom: Then he tells them well

0:19:26 Eli: Or

0:19:54 Thomas: Recognize nice yeah and because you get to interpret the law and decide that he didn't break it, it's like no I actually don't think that's how it works, sure because Tom's dad was there on Gen 6, I get it, I

0:19:54 Eli: You ruined christmas yeah yeah yeah definitely yeah

0:20:03 Tom: But but let's broaden this out, away from the story. So, so, dad is so, I don't know. My dad is entirely apolitical. Like, I think that's hilarious. Like I

0:20:11 Thomas: Know, it's a, it's

0:20:09 Eli: He fixed all the frames that they broke of the doors, he retiled the floor, where Ashley got shot, yeah because

0:20:15 Tom: Know, I know. But

0:20:15 Thomas: Yeah, uh but then one senator said, he said something he didn't like, so he left and never returned, like, he just never came back.

0:20:24 Tom: I, say my dad votes against Trump. Very like, this

0:20:27 Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

0:20:29 Eli: He was rude to him in a meeting. That's so important.

0:20:30 Thomas: Yeah.

0:20:30 Tom: Yeah. Cause he, He met him and was like, that guy's an an asshole, he's like, that dude sucks, and I want to vote against him.

0:20:31 Eli: Yep.

0:20:35 Thomas: Don't actually know anything else about the whole situation, but I don't like him personally.

0:20:36 Tom: Yeah. Yeah. He's not, he's non, is not political, So

0:20:40 Eli: To Be fair. Joe Biden and your dad probably don't run in the same circle, so it, it all worked out great. If they did, he'd they, be like, that guy has dementia. Do you know that guy's dementia, Tom? Someone should find him some help.

0:20:44 Thomas: Yeah.

0:20:50 Tom: So I want, I want to broaden the question out, like, I could because I, I would not turn in my family unless the crime that they committed yeah Well, if the reward was high enough, fuck them, you know, especially extended family, like, but like I wouldn't turn in, like, the, and and I have to say, like, like I'm kind of similar, like the family that I'm like close to is like basically my dad, and then there's a full stop, right? So like I've got a brother, don't really care, I've got like, I mean, I've seen once a year, and if I didn't, I wouldn't care. Like, I've got some uncles, I guess, but like, again, these are people I haven't seen in a decade plus. Like, I don't have any family that I've seen. So it's just, it's my dad, so, like, using my dad is my example, my dad would have to commit a crime that was more than just a crime for me to turn him in, he would have to commit a moral injustice, so

0:21:00 Thomas: Reward was high enough. Sorry. Yeah.

0:21:37 Thomas: Hmm.

0:21:38 Tom: Got a good example for this, my dad, for whatever reason, a handful of years ago, got a little shoplifty, no, no, no, thank God, no, but he got a little shoplifter, and it was the funniest thing, like he would just start stealing kind of random shit, like he would steal salt and pepper shakers from restaurants.

0:21:42 Eli: Fucked a kid.

0:21:54 Thomas: Got a little shoplifty.

0:21:56 Eli: Fuck yeah. Get the man. Absolutely. Tom's dad.

0:21:56 Thomas: Okay.

0:21:57 Tom: Yeah. Would just be at a restaurant and see these little salt and pepper shakers and he thought they were cool, a

0:22:00 Thomas: I think that's how Fox News described Jan 6 as well. Well, yeah, they got a little handsy, you know?

0:22:04 Tom: Little shoplifting, but

0:22:04 Eli: Yeah. A little shoplifty, a little shoplifty with the constitution.

0:22:07 Tom: Like January 6th is as a moral transgression, so, like, that's the distinct, the distinction I think is the only one that's interesting, right? So, like, none of us are going to turn our parents in for some breaking the law, I don't give a shit about the law, like I don't, like, I care about moral transgressions though, so, like, if my dad committed some moral transgression, would I turn him in, and like, there's a line, and I don't know exactly where it is, that's like, well, it depends on the moral transgression, it really does.

0:22:35 Eli: Yep.

0:22:08 Thomas: Yeah. Mm -hmm. Yeah. Mm -hm. Yeah. No, I actually think Tom and I are pretty similar on this. Yeah.

0:22:36 Tom: Yeah, yeah.

0:22:36 Eli: Yep. That's nice for you guys over there. Um, here's here's the way that I want to bring this wider, because I think this will be relevant to our audience, because from the feedback that I have heard, aside from the fact that I'm super right about last episode, um, the feedback that I have heard is, like, a lot of the time there are kids who are in our audience whose parents, are obviously, they weren't in January 6th, but whose parents did bad shit, right? And And when confronted with that bad shit, it has become an obfuscation about like, why are you ruining Christmas by calling your dad out for X, right? Of the reasons why I wanted to do this episode and what I thought was so interesting, at least hearing you describe the interview and talk about the interview a little bit before the show, what I think is really interesting is like, how do we call our families to account when nobody in our family

0:22:40 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

0:22:41 Tom: Oh.

0:22:51 Tom: No.

0:23:26 Eli: Is willing to admit they need to be called to account, right. Right. And I have had that situation in my family. Answer, I will say right now, was not super healthy. My Answer was like, hey, I just want you guys to know you're dead to me. Isn't a joke or a bit or a thing that a young person says in a moment of peak. You will never see me again. And in matter of fact, they have not. Right. Like that was the choice that I made.

And everyone sort of went like, oh, well, gosh, Eli, you know, we hate to hear you say that. And And then like six or seven years later, they were like, oh, we meant it. Oh, well, there he was. There he was, stuck to his bills. So yeah, I'm interested in your guys' thoughts when it comes to like that kind of situation. If you've had it in your life, I mean, Tom, this is fucking crazy to me, not to get off on a side tangent. Tom, I thought your mom was dead, and I was talking to Haley in our secret conversation that you don't know about, where we exchange memes, the

0:23:30 Thomas: Yep. Yeah.

0:24:22 Eli: Other day. And she was like, yeah, yeah. She'll live forever. And I was like, wait, wait. She's dead. And Haley was like. No, no, no. She's not dead.

0:24:16 Tom: Uh, -uh No, No she's Alive yeah I think she Lives. In panama

0:24:30 Thomas: She lives down the street, actually. No, I'm just kidding. Kidding.

0:24:31 Tom: Yeah.

0:24:32 Eli: Which blows my. The fact that Thomas hasn't read the diaries. Is now rivaled only by the fact that we haven't hunted down Tom's mom. Like some kind of Nazi hunters in the 19th century.

0:24:33 Tom: What What?

0:24:41 Thomas: Let's make her read the diary. No, that doesn't make sense.

0:24:43 Tom: No,

0:24:43 Eli: Yes. But like. Was there a moment where you called her to account? Thomas. I know that like. You've sort of referenced that you had like. A final visit with your dad. Where you like very gently started to push back. And he just completely shut down over it. I'm really interested in sort of like how that dynamic was and still is.

0:24:58 Thomas: Yeah.

0:25:01 Tom: For me, I went the last time that I saw my mom, I had gone, I was broke, I was young, I was in my very early 20s, maybe 21. I had flown out to where she was living, so I flew from Chicago to Washington on a credit card, didn't have any money because I hadn't seen her for years and years, and I felt like I wanted to visit her and I felt like, well, I'm an adult and like, it I doesn't always have to be on her to send the airplane ticket. Right. Like she's my mind.

She's always telling me, you know, she's broke. She's this, she'S that, you Know, she doesn't have the money. That's why we haven't seen her. That's Why she hasn't come out. She hasn't sent us tickets, you KNOW. And so I was like, all right, well, like I can charge this. I can go out. I Can go see my mom, you KNOW. And I went out there and it was just a disastrously awful visit. Like I went Out there and I almost got into a fistfight with her husband. Like we were like nose to nose. I thought, I thought we were going to throw down down

0:25:23 Thomas: Hmm. Wow.

0:25:46 Tom: With, like, I almost got into a fist fight with him.

0:25:46 Eli: Jesus.

0:25:49 Thomas: It something important or dumb? I don't want to pry, but like, was it a dumb unrelated thing or like family drama?

0:25:51 Eli: Was it? Yeah. What was it about? Yeah.

0:25:55 Tom: A, uh, it Was just, he was being wildly disrespectful. Like, he was drunk. So he was Being like wildly disrespectful and aggressive and like pointing his finger like aggressively. And I just was like, Hey, you don't, you Don't point your finger at me, man. Like, this is not how this works. Like we're not, we're Not doing this.

0:26:10 Thomas: Did he grab onto your arm and not let go? Cause that would have sent me.

0:26:12 Tom: Yeah.

0:26:13 Eli: Because we've established as a podcast that's okay and doesn't count as fighting.

0:26:15 Thomas: Yeah, Yeah, yeah,

0:26:18 Tom: I was immediately I was like, well, this guy sucks, but like, this guy wasn't part of my life. Like, I don't care. You for me, like, I had gone through all this. I'd had this like terrible visit, like, she, and this is maybe, it's gonna sound totally stupid, but my whole life growing up, when I would go visit my mom, she had this light cardboard box that traveled with her. She was, you know, moved place to place to places, and it was full of like pictures and letters and like memories.

And what she would typically do is, at, she, some point during our visit, she would get drunk off her ass and haul out this stupid cardboard box, and you cry and look through these like old memories of when we lived with her, which, you know, was years zero through five. You know, wasn't like six. And and it was simultaneously this like really difficult weird thing, but I also like did feel loved by her when we would go through these memories, right? And and so I kind of like, in a weird way, I kind of liked that drunken memory lane kind of thing.

0:26:22 Thomas: Yeah.

0:26:22 Eli: Right. Right. Sure.

0:27:11 Tom: And so when I was out there, I asked her, I was like, Hey, like, do you still have that box of pictures? I'd love to look at that box. Of old pictures and, and, you know, letters and stuff. And she just very offhandedly was like, I lost that sometime. And I was just really like the offhandedness of that comment. I was Like, oh, like I guess we just don't have that anymore. And that kind of stung that did it. It kind of stuck, stung and

0:27:24 Thomas: Oh, I kind

0:27:32 Eli: Kind of stung. Kind of sting.

0:27:34 Thomas: Of stung. Needs to be in a screenplay or something. You know, like that's just the tragedy of that moment.

0:27:40 Eli: Yeah. But like an Expendables movie screenplay. Not like a, not a drama. I don't want a marriage story.

0:27:43 Tom: Then But but it but Admittedly, that wasn't it, the dumbest thing maybe, but like, you know, again, like I hadn't seen her for years and years, but no, this next thing maybe is dumb.

0:27:47 Thomas: No, that's not dumb. Oh, sorry.

0:27:54 Tom: I don't know, But like, but like, I had like, she hadn't like put any financial or other effort into seeing myself or my brother in a long, long time, and you know, a lot of things had happened in our lives. You know, I had bought a home. I had, like, you know, a lot of things that happened in our wives, and there was really no engagement. And the, the sort of like excuse that always ran in the background was that she was just broke. And so I was like, well, she's going to, when I, when I go see her, she's going to be like, I don't have $400 broke. Right? Like I don't have $400 for an airplane ticket or a credit card to charge it on broke. And I got out there. And on the last day that I was there, she started telling me about this, this Alaskan cruise she was going

0:27:55 Thomas: Okay, gotcha.

0:28:31 Thomas: Oh, God. That is so, that is so this person.

0:28:35 Eli: Sure. Oof.

0:28:36 Tom: On. And I confronted her about it. And I was like, what? Wait, wait a minute. Like, I am 21 years old. I flew out here on my credit card that's going to take me like a year to pay off. I haven't seen you since I was 16. You're going on an Alaskan's cruise. Like, you can't drop a few hundred bucks just to fly out like once a year and just like be in my life in any way. You know, like I, and I confronted her on it and, uh, she did not, she didn't take well to that. You know, she, she, we got into a big fight about it and I was like, all right, well, I understand. And I told her, I was like, I understand this relationship a lot better. I get it now. And just like, we're done. And. I never talked to her again.

0:29:22 Eli: What did she actually say? Like, I know obviously she didn't take to it, but what did she eigentlich say?

0:29:25 Tom: She told me that she deserved to spend her money how she wanted to and to have a good time and that, you know she worked worked hard for that money. And, you know, she, if she wanted to go on a cruise with her husband, she could go on A Cruise with Her Husband and she didn't need, she know she was kind of like a weird right winger, which I didn't realize because I was young my whole life, you now.

0:29:29 Thomas: Right. Yeah.

0:29:43 Tom: And she called me like a liberal sophisticate and, like, I'm 21, I'm the least sophisticated person ever. You know, like it just devolved into this, like I can spend my money how I want. And like, there is a part of me that is slightly sympathetic to that, right? Like, I think like that is her money and she is allowed to enjoy her life and but

0:29:43 Eli: Mm -hmm. Yeah.

0:29:59 Thomas: Well, obviously. Yeah, yeah. Key part is then you're signaling I don't want to see you ever.

0:30:06 Eli: Right. I don't want a relationship.

0:30:08 Tom: So it wasn't that I resented that she wasn't spending every available dollar on myself and my brother and having that relationship, what I resented was that she hadn't spent any of her resources and I and I very immediately realized like, well, how we spend our time and our resources is what we care about. Like, there's like there's words, but that's just, you know, throw that shit in a bucket if it doesn't match how we spend our time and our resources. And I saw immediately and I just was like, okay. And I told her, I was like we'll never talk again. I want you to understand like, like we will never talk again. And I went got, home and she wrote me letters. Um, I don't know what they said. I just threw them away.

0:30:13 Thomas: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Now,

0:30:18 Eli: Of course. Yeah, exactly. Mm -mm.

0:30:45 Tom: And she, she did try calling and she wrote letters, but I never answered her calls. Um, she did call me many years later, which I just remembered now. I remember I was driving in my car. Her number came up, and I didn't know it because I hadn't programmed her into my cell phone because this all happened before cell phones were really a thing. And I hadn't programmed the number into my cell phone, so I answered it, and she was on the other line. So I'm guessing my brother gave her my number, and called me Tommy, which is like the only person that ever called me Tommy. She's like, "Tommy," and I was like, "Hello?" And she's like, "It's your mom," and I was like, "Oh, oh, no, thank you," and hung up and I blocked her number.

0:30:45 Eli: Yeah? Yep.

0:30:45 Thomas: That's interesting. Well, Well,

0:31:16 Tom: So that was the last time I ever spoke with her.

0:31:18 Thomas: So that's interesting. So, I know this is, uh, obviously not, uh, any realistic possibility, but like hypothetically, if she had somehow made some growth and chosen to try to make amends, she has no way to do that then?

0:31:31 Tom: No, no. She has no way to do that. I guess she could. She could go through my brother. She and my brother still have a relationship. So she and my brother still talk.

0:31:33 Eli: Yeah!

0:31:33 Thomas: Okay. So you, yeah, so if there was a pre-message of like, "Look, I want to apologize," like, or something like, maybe you'd be open to that or something, or is it just

0:31:47 Tom: Not be open to that. No, I would Not be open.

0:31:47 Thomas: No? Okay. So There's no way.

0:31:49 Tom: No.

0:31:49 Thomas: That's interesting. Hmm.

0:31:50 Tom: And it's not because I'm angry with her. So and not at all. I'm actually not at all angry with it. I just realized like this is a person that isn't good for me. And like this person. Yeah, This person isn't good for me, so, like, maybe she feels sorry, but, like, I kind of don't care if she feels good or bad or sad or alive or dead. Like, none of that matters to me. Like, she isn't part of me. She's like she's not part of my life. And the other thing, too, is it's not like I have like this like treasure trove of happy family memories that I can be like, oh, man, it was so warm and cuddly. And I, I so wish things could be like that again, you know?

0:31:57 Eli: Yeah, yeah, you gotta put out the fire.

0:31:58 Thomas: Sure. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

0:32:08 Eli: Mm -hm.

0:32:23 Eli: But it was so warm in that house fire she left me in.

0:32:26 Thomas: Yeah.

0:32:27 Tom: So it's very easy for me to be like, yeah, okay. Like I, this relationship would take more energy and effort and would get almost nothing in return that I could possibly value no matter how hard I squint. So like, why would I spend that kind of energy on somebody that I just don't care about?

0:32:43 Eli: I want to underline something that you're talking about, Tom, because society, largely because of sort of fiction and movies and TV, sort of tells us that there's always a reconciliation, right? Movies have happy endings. And so our fiction is often built around the idea that no matter what someone does, they are worth saving.

But something I want to underline that I say to listeners all the time that I'm so glad you've brought up here is like, yes, it seems harsh, but no longer giving someone the ability to hurt you is often the kindest thing you can do. Not to them. Right. And it's very, very hard to realize that the thing that you can do for them is not necessarily the kind of thing you can do.

The kind is thing you can do is to yourself when, when you cut that abuser out of your life. And, as and you were talking, Tom, I, I thought about how many people, even in my own life, right? Friends and friends of friends who have a similar abuser in their lives. And right, look, no one's worse than your mom. Your mom's the worst non-genocidal dictator I've ever heard of. Anyone who doesn't show up on a billboard near the Jersey New York border is almost as bad as your mom in my book. But like, think, I, a lot of us have these people in our lives and we have been told over and over and again that you just have to enable them till X or you just have to disable them so far.

Right, example is like, my buddy Matt, um, his grandmother's a piece of shit, um, like everyone in his family is just like, just till she dies, man, but like she's 97, it's been a really fucking long time, she sucks right. And like one, what, of the things that I really want to encourage people to do is like the distance that you did, it's not pleasant sounding, right?

Even as I was listening to you just now, I was like, oh, it feels so bad to say, but like, I also think it's really important. And it's really important for us, this next generation, Tom, I know you're part of the golden generation while

0:33:44 Tom: She is.

0:34:39 Thomas: Tom's

0:34:39 Eli: All Thomas and I are, uh, millennials, but like I feel like it's really yeah it's hey and thank you for that by the way yeah Tom was actually the guy at the front at Iwo Jima, you can't see his face because he's all huddled over, but yeah, we're big fans. But like, all joking aside, like I think if our generation is going to move on and do better, one of the ways that we can do that is like to stop re-traumatizing ourselves so that we have the same mental anguish and illness as our parents did.

0:34:42 Thomas: People won the war so we we oh by the way we owe Show a debt of gratitude, Tom. We don't say it enough.

0:35:04 Tom: Yeah.

0:35:10 Thomas: That's interesting. First question, on the way out, did you check on the snapping turtle? Did you just like say, hi, stop by, I'm back, you know?

0:35:16 Eli: How was the monkey? Yeah.

0:35:19 Thomas: The snapping turtle's like, what? Who is that? Who is, Tom? No, I don't believe it.

0:35:18 Tom: Oh, yeah, Snappy? Yeah, Snapy and I are close. Yeah.

0:35:24 Eli: I mean, Snappy came to his college graduation. Have you not seen that picture? It's on the mantle.

0:35:28 Tom: Yeah.

0:35:28 Thomas: And then by the way, the snapping turtles like, hey, I found this box. I found This cardboard box. I wanted to share some of these memories. Look at this. You and I, look at how young. Yeah.

0:35:33 Tom: Yeah.

0:35:35 Eli: He hid it from your mom. It took

0:35:39 Thomas: Someone threw this in the, in the pond.

0:35:39 Eli: Him six and a half years to drag that thing under the

0:35:41 Thomas: Yeah, look at us. He's in the pictures too. They're both, you're both wearing older clothes and stuff. Um, and then second question, I want to make a million percent sure that I, and I know you understand this Tom, but, but this is not at all alike, uh, saying you should or shouldn't do do anything. I was, I was a, I wanted to like interrogate the difference there because one thing I find interesting is I, not that would have mattered in a bajillion years, but if my dad had ever called a single time, I would have taken his call. I mean, obviously it's a different story. Like it's different thing. Uh, and I just was curious about the differences there. Not at all in a like, know, telling uh, you what to do or anything, but I wonder why that is. And could could be because your mom was truly that much worse. Uh, that could be a big part of

0:35:41 Eli: Bed, but he did it. Mm -hmm.

0:35:53 Tom: No, I got you.

0:36:24 Eli: -huh.

0:36:24 Thomas: It. Um, but yeah, no, it's interesting. I just think that it also is kind of pointless because when people are that level of, you there's certain personality, I that are just not solvable by ordinary methods. So echo Eli's point that, movies are like, oh yeah, he's going to apologize and it'll be single tier. And then it'll be, it's like, no, that honestly never happens. Like if my dad had tried, I think I would have given him quite a bit of credit. Like, if he had done anything, if you had ever called a single, there's not a single time where my phone rang and my dad was the other person. That never happened in my lifetime because it was always on me to to initiate anything.

0:36:25 Eli: Mm

0:36:52 Tom: Yeah. Yeah.

0:37:02 Tom: I think think I a couple of things like I think if you have at some point in your life, a long and close history and your dad, I think from what you've described when you were young, you first of all, you had a long history together. My mom and I didn't have a long history together and guys at one point in their lives did have a closeness, A kind of a kind of loving closeness when you were younger, at the very least. So I think like trying to mend fences can make more sense when you have a a long or a long and close history where you can be like, I'd like to return to something that we once had, right.

0:37:10 Thomas: Yeah.

0:37:19 Thomas: For

0:37:32 Eli: Mm -hm.

0:37:32 Tom: Me, like experience with my mom was just, it was just, I hate saying this shit, this is primarily abusive, right? So it was not like usually okay with like some scattershot problems, it was like generally a bad and and you, it was kind of an abusive use of relationships. So I have recognized in just in more very recent years that like one of the problems too, that it created in me as a person is that that distance that I always had with my mom, that I always lamented as a very young person, as I, it really hurt me as a young person made me constantly feel like I should be closing the gap in relationships.

0:37:38 Eli: Right.

0:37:45 Thomas: Sure yeah

0:38:12 Tom: That, that when I was in any kind of a relationship and there was any kind of abuse or distance or something, that it was my responsibility to close that gap. It was my responsibilty to move to the middle and then move past the middle. And move into the space that other people occupied so that I could have that closeness that I wanted. And I've come to realize only in relatively recent years that that's not my fucking job. Up.

0:38:39 Eli: Yes.

0:38:40 Tom: Think like with my mom, there was a moment of some climax, like a revelation kind of moment. It was easy for me in that moment. Cause I really didn't feel bad about it. It's easy for me to be like, Oh, I get it now. We're good. Like I just, I'm going to get on an airplane. We won't ever talk again. But I will say that it impacted other relationships that I had where I spent the rest of my life trying to close gaps and feeling responsible for closing those gaps. And I think that that's one of the dangers of a society that constantly preaches the virtue of forgiveness.

0:38:38 Thomas: Yeah

0:38:54 Eli: Right.

0:39:15 Thomas: Couldn't agree more, it's so pointless.

0:39:17 Tom: Everyone can have their own relationship with forgiveness, but I am not a forgiveness guy. I've written about this for my blog, I am not a like for big hurts, for big hurts. I'm not a forgive guy. I don't like, I'm not a grudge guy either, but I'm not a forgiveness. I think forgiveness teaches us some toxic shit, that can really perpetuate really bad relationship dynamics, and for me raising my hand and taking ownership of those and how they affected me. I spent my life with people trying to close gaps that weren't my responsibility to close and eating decades worth of shit that was not my shit to eat. And it's taken me like into my late 30s to figure out like, oh, how that wasn't good. Oops.

0:39:17 Thomas: God.

0:39:19 Eli: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:40:01 Tom: You know, and like, fuck that. Fuck that hard.

0:40:05 Eli: Is often preached by abusers and their enablers, right? Like when you think about the people who tell you about the power of forgiveness, right, aside from fiction writers who are just writing lazy fiction, right. They don't know how to end a story unless there's forgiveness there. I sympathize most with novelists who are like, and then the great Santini crashed his plane into the ocean, and they were like, I guess that's an apology of sorts and it's over, right? Like, I do get that, right.

0:40:34 Tom: Right.

0:40:34 Eli: It's hard to write the end of things, um, but like for the most part when you look at like the church or the people in your family who preach you forgiveness, they are often the abuser themselves or apologizing for those abusers as a part of their brand.

0:40:31 Thomas: Yeah I don't get so bummed out, Tom, when I see those headlines of like, uh, you know, family of have murdered a son or daughter forgives the murderer. And you're like, what? Why? Why would you do? What is the point? It's some it's some pressure from likely Christianity that you that like, oh, that's the virtuous thing to do is to forgive. And it's like, look, if you feel like that'll help you, sure. But I can't help but think it's not really good. You know, I feel like it's Not a healthy thing. I feel Like it's it's from this societal pressure to constantly have victims be forgiving the people who are really shitty. I'm with you like there's no there's no reason to yeah

0:41:00 Eli: Yeah yes

0:41:00 Tom: Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah,

0:41:21 Eli: And It enables abusers, right? Like let's be very good we were, I was talking about this with my friend group the other day is because someone, one of my friends who's um physically addicted to bad tanks was like, yeah, but didn't didn't Trump have a bad childhood, and we were like uh it doesn't really fucking matter, man, when you use all your empathy up on victimizers, you implicitly, uh, harm victims. Right. And that's also a part of it. Right? Like, I think a lot of the time in victimizer enabling there is, and the Washington Post thing is a great example, but like just generally, it's also great example of like, well, you got to understand your dad is the way he is. And if you could just, and it's like, that's doing more damage to me.

0:41:27 Thomas: I don't fucking care yeah yeah yep yep

0:42:06 Eli: Right. When someone Adds, if you could just, that where you add to, even if you have the the best intentions, even if you are not that abuser, that is where you continue the abuse outside the abuser's actions

0:42:07 Thomas: Yep

0:42:07 Tom: Yeah. Yeah.

0:42:18 Thomas: Because there are so many people like that mom, like my mom, like where what they, and I feel for them, but what they have to do at all times, what they are trying to do is they are calculating what's the least pain in the ass or what's and not even in like a lighthearted way, like truly, what's the least damaging thing to me, what's less damaging me telling the son like, hey, you gotta fucking figure that, or me telling the narcissist husband like, hey, you fuck this entire family, asshole, by storming the Capital.

0:42:19 Eli: Right right

0:42:32 Tom: Yeah Yeah.

0:42:48 Thomas: They can't do that, that's too harmful psychologically or even maybe physically for them, and maybe it may be literally dangerous for them. And so that enabling of, well, I'm not going to ever tell that person what to do, but what I can do is make everyone else in the entire fucking situation walk on eggshells and figure out how to accommodate this shitty person. Mm

0:42:48 Eli: This

0:42:49 Tom: Yeah. And an important distinction that gets lost all the time between releasing a grudge or not holding on to anger and forgiving people. I do think that there is a personal value that is probably psychologically useful to not walk around holding on anger and grudges, right? I think holding on a lot of anger and grudges is very often going to create other maladaptive behaviors and emotional resonance, right? But that has not, that's your decision to just not feel that transitory emotion of anger anymore. That's your position. That decision to deal with, like, I just don't want to feel angry, but that has nothing to do with forgiveness.

I it's not even related to forgiveness, But it gets conflated, right? You, The people are preached to that the way for them to release the anger that's boiling and hurting them is to forgive this other person, but, like, I'm gonna be blunt, I don't really understand what the fuck forgiveness means. I genuinely don't. If somebody big hurts you and you're gonna be like, "All right, well, I don't want to be angry anymore, so I'm going to forgive the other person," do you really, are you like, "Oh yeah, no, we're cool now"? Like,

0:43:16 Thomas: -hmm. Yeah. Yeah yeah

0:43:32 Eli: Yeah right

0:44:05 Thomas: They

0:44:16 Tom: I actually, I forgive that in the sense that, like, that no longer feels like something that I I hold you culpable for. How the fuck and why the fuck I don't understand that at all. Your bad actions cannot create a moral responsibility for me, that's unfair every time. So, like, if somebody behaves badly and big hurts me, like, I think it's entirely fair to be like, "Look, I'm gonna reject the moral responsibility you're trying to put on me by forcing me to deal with this in a way that is anything other than you're gone."

0:44:25 Eli: Right I'm yeah And I also, I think it's like to that question, it's like, what does forgiveness mean for some people? Does it mean your new actions are better than your bad actions were bad? Does it mean I'm going to pretend you didn't do the bad things? Does a right, there? There's no real guidance to forgiveness, because I think at its core, it is a concept by abusers.

And I want to add one other sort of flavor to this conversation that I think that I would say from my limited knowledge of you guys that you might not be able to add, which is that like, as someone who who has big hurt other people, right? Hurt other people.

One of the really hard lessons I had to learn when I did the work and reflected on past behaviors was, oh, me asking someone to forgive me, right, that scene you always see in the movie where someone's gone through like the 10-step program and they're like, I want you to, you know, I want to know I'm sorry, right, that that's a part of like the healing process. It is not, right.

I started to recognize the damage I had done in relationships and friendships in my life, um, the help of a professional therapist, which is something that abusers need to do and we just don't talk about because they suck so much, it's like

0:45:56 Eli: How the hell are they ever gonna get right

0:45:56 Thomas: Can't just do a pseudo -religious 12-step program that fucking worthless and doesn't yeah actually

0:46:00 Eli: Exactly you can't just do 12 Magic steps, um, didn't even know how many steps there were. I was like, 14 to 13 steps to mentalism, right? So

0:46:08 Thomas: I now forget, is it 12 or is it 10? I don't know.

0:46:11 Eli: You'd like, I can take a strong position and my mom will tell you to fuck yourself on the Facebook group. Um, like, I, when did the work, one of the things that I found most surprising, because I remember coming in once to my therapist's office, and I had this amazing therapist for many, many years, um, I was like, you know, I think I'm ready to call this person and say my piece, and he was like, oh no, no, you do not get to do that and I was like, no, no, no, you don't understand, like I'm gonna call and like admit that I was wrong and apologize and like they can finally heal, and he was like, I have, have no idea whether or not that person is healing or healed.

You are doing this so that you can feel better. What you get to do is feel bad forever and move forward with your life. That's how you, you can be a better person. Like people often talk about, and um, again, this is something not necessarily related to you, is, but like a lot of the jokes that I made early in my podcasting career, not awesome.

And so sometimes I talk to people who are like, hey, you're in a better place now than you were then, uh, what, like, do you do when someone brings up those jokes, and I know I've talked about this on air before, but like my answer is like, yeah, that fucking sucked and I'm really sorry, and like some people are like, I don't want to listen to your shows anymore, and some people are like, hey, it seems like you've grown, but the one thing I don't get to do is be like, I said the magic sorry words, so your feelings

0:46:14 Tom: Yeah. Yeah,

0:46:33 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

0:47:33 Eli: And the time dimension has to change all All right, gentlemen, before we leave, what do you call a woman who sets fire to all her overdue bills? Bernadette.

0:47:35 Tom: We

0:47:54 Thomas: Don't

0:47:59 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.