DOD86: What If Your Partner Starts An OnlyFans?

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Tom: To Dear Old Dads, the podcast with only the best fans. I'm Tom Curry. I am joined as always by Thomas Super Sick Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:39 Eli: Well, that's not fair. I'm always super sick, so I feel like I should get that all the weeks except for this one.

0:00:45 Tom: No, you'll get noted when you're well. Yeah, right, yeah.

0:00:48 Eli: Okay, there we go. We figured it out.

0:00:49 Tom: Uh-huh, yeah, yeah... In

0:00:50 Thomas: There's a new shitting champion in town, Eli.

0:01:01 Eli: I don't think so.

0:01:04 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, that's 100%. Not missing this. Yeah. Yeah. I can't wait for Eli to realize how insane he is. It's going to be the best.

0:01:17 Eli: I'm pretty sure I'm not insane on this one Well,

0:01:19 Tom: Right, so before we launch into the episode, do we have any other insane things to talk about, Eli Bosnick?

0:01:26 Eli: Tom, you know the only thing worse than the terrible, mind-shattering levels of diarrhea that Thomas Smith is experiencing right now? It's the auto-ads, yes! Every 10 to 20 seconds, much like Thomas' shits, our audio ads come splattering against the back of the toilet seat of your eardrums. And if you'd like to prevent that from happening, as I think we all would, you can head over to patreon.com/dearolddads. By giving us as little as a dollar, you can turn the auto ads off and hear this podcast as the smooth, brand-filled shit it was meant to be, gently lowering with a single plop into your consciousness. Patreon.

0:01:44 Thomas: Oh, God.

0:02:07 Eli: Com forward slash

0:02:04 Tom: Oh, My God, what the fuck just happened

0:02:08 Thomas: Oh, man.

0:02:08 Tom: There all Right, this is an Am I the Asshole question that I found online this week. I dropped it into our messenger chat with Thomas and Eli just as like, hey, maybe this is something uh can talk. Let me go ahead and read this because I think we've got some divergent views here. And I'm curious. I know Thomas and I are going to agree. I'm curios if we agree for the same reasons. So here's the question. Am I the asshole for telling my wife I'd file for divorce if she started an OnlyFans? Told her, quote, can do that, but I won't stay with you if you do. I'm not okay with sharing you that way, and that's where I stand. Was upset with me for saying it that way. So am I the assholes? Is the question, gentlemen.

0:02:45 Eli: So the answer is so obviously yes to me that I want you guys to go first so I can fathom which parts of your wife you own. Like, is it all of her? Or, like, is elbow stuff okay? What about a foot? Only fence? Would she be okay to have a foot on the fence?

0:03:03 Tom: Wow. Wow. No, no, I would not. But yeah, I don't own any part of my wife. But like this question isn't a matter to me of ownership. A matter of saying like, hey, there's some parts of our lives that we want to hold exclusive to one another. If you want something different than that, that's OK. But that's not the same thing that I want. And so we just are not compatible in in this relationship. And so we should discontinue it.

0:03:26 Eli: Yeah, Yeah, you just need to not post pictures of yourself in a swimsuit with all those other surfers that you work with. That's just, that's my...

0:03:28 Tom: It. You don't see a difference. Okay. So, so let's, so let me, you

0:03:36 Eli: I don't see it. Poor Thomas had to cut me not seeing a difference out of that episode is how much I don't see a difference. Thomas was like, I'm gonna help Eli out here and cut him not understanding what this means out of the episode.

0:03:42 Tom: Don't You don't. See a different suit, a swimsuits and pornography.

0:03:50 Eli: I me, it is the personal choice about one one makes with their body, and to me they have exactly the same weight and meaning, as long as consent is maintained, right?

0:04:00 Tom: Okay. I agree. So so right, fair enough. In this instance, there is not consent right there's not relationship consent, right?

0:04:06 Eli: But you don't get to consent about another person's body, sure.

0:04:07 Tom: Like, no, but you can decide like, hey, not everything you do with your body is going to make me feel comfortable enough that I want to continue this relationship. Right. Like if if my My wife went in and and voted Republican, we would divorce. Can vote however she wants. Right. She, she can. She can vot however she want. But that, would that be a deal breaker? Right? I like what you're saying is like, there's no amount of things or no things at all that a person can do with their body that are allowed to be ethical deal breakers in a relationship with someone else. And that seems bonkers to me.

0:04:16 Thomas: Eli Hey, baby but

0:04:39 Eli: That's a good point of a which is that I don't think there's anything unethical. Like, I would consider voting Republican highly, highly unethcial. I don't think there's anything unethical about starting an OnlyFans. It wouldn't change my relationship to someone if they had an OnlyFans, as long as the content on it was victimless and between consenting adults.

0:05:03 Thomas: Like you realize other people don't feel that way, right? So like, my, that's where I'm coming from.

0:05:06 Eli: Right. Those people, but like Mike Pence also doesn't get in the room with other ladies. Like, that's what I'm saying is you're all crazy. You're all crazy. I feel like the only non -slave owner in Virginia and you guys are like, what are they supposed to do? I

0:05:07 Thomas: Yeah no that's crazy no I

0:05:21 Tom: So just establish this, because I think this is going to be a point of just such fundamental disagreement. There are no boundaries that you think that can be established in a relationship for physical behavior of any kind that are ethical.

0:05:35 Eli: Would say not physical behavior. I would say, because obviously, like, hitting would be a great example of like violating right victimless physical behavior. Yeah, I, I would say the only one that comes to mind is like safety, right? So if, if someone's going to take on partners without my knowledge, or is going to tak on partners in a high risk situation, I think that's something, because it's got to do with my body, but as far as like what someone else does with their body in a healthy, safe, consensual way with other adults else, I want to understanding is how it's my business.

0:05:43 Tom: Victimless physical behavior, victimless

0:06:09 Thomas: There a type of thing, is there type of any conduct of any kind that you think warrants not wanting to be with someone, anywhere? Like if Anna was just like, here's what I'm doing with my body, I'm going to, and I'll never see you again, can you be like, well, that's what she's doing with her body, I guess I can't complain.

0:06:15 Eli: Unethical

0:06:26 Tom: One is harmed this

0:06:27 Eli: No, because that, that's, that, well, the harm there is to me and my family, right? Because the separation of me not being able to see her anymore is the harm. I

0:06:35 Tom: Is fascinating. So, think what's, what interesting here though is that you're extrapolating your preference into something that hasn't, like, that, that is a broader ethical saying, essentially, like, because look, I don't have a problem with it. It's insane that anybody else would have a problem with it.

0:06:50 Thomas: Yeah, Yeah, exactly.

0:06:52 Eli: Just don't understand it. Like, I don't understanding the viewpoint by which, like, I, I get it, right. I would understand

0:06:57 Tom: Because it makes somebody else an asshole. To draw that boundary. So you're saying they are the assholes. You're in a position of judgment. So you have an ethical boundary. And your ethical boundary is that somebody else, not just Eli and Anna, but somebody else's relationship, somebody is behaving badly if they establish a sexual boundary. Well.

0:06:58 Eli: Yeah not that, because I think establishing a sexual boundary is a very important thing and can involve consent in a lot of ways, right? Because a great, another example would, that would be like, am I the asshole if I don't agree to anal, and and saying, well, I don't believe in setting sexual boundaries would mean that, like, you have to get pegged or else you're a bad, or you're the damn asshole, right? Think I, for me, what I guess would be a better way of putting it is, I don't understand the viewpoint by which that is my, my business, right? Assuming safe consent, um, all the positive things, right, without turning, without it into a non-consensual experience, or an implicit or explicit harm is being done to someone, I don't know where one draws the line between like, hey, I'm uncomfortable with you having an OnlyFans, and I'm comfortable with you going out to lunch with your male friends.

0:08:07 Thomas: You just can't see the difference. But like in some sense, don't you think people can just exit any relationship they want for any reason?

0:08:12 Tom: Oh

0:08:09 Eli: Yeah no, of course, people, people can exit relationships. Just because I

0:08:16 Thomas: So if people are like, hey, I really I don't like when when my partner is doing an OnlyFans and therefore because it's very like unpleasurable, I don't want to be in this relationship anymore.

0:08:28 Eli: Would say, so I would question that along the same lines as I would ask you to leave a relationship with having male friends, or any other behavior that I felt was toxic, right? Like, you can leave a relationship for any reason you want to, but I think if that reason is bad, we, we should question, like, what are the higher morals and ideas behind that? So that's what I'm interested in, right? Because I know I'm different, right. I know, I don't match up with 99.99% of the world. My question is like, because we're secular people, right, we've talked about this before. We're secular, we're evidence-based people, where, how do you guys draw that line, and how do you draw it, aside from, like, feels yucky?

0:09:07 Tom: Okay OK, well, I've got I got I got lots of answers to that, but I want to poke at something that you said just to draw maybe attention to it. Maybe because maybe I misunderstood it. Of the things that you said is like, as long as everybody was safe and I knew about it, but then you're also saying, but it's none of my business. Those two things feel in conflict.

0:09:09 Eli: Yeah, please, yeah.

0:09:23 Eli: Sorry, what I meant by, like, I knew about it was like informed consent on my part. So not necessarily like you got to tell me how many dildos you're putting in your butt this week on the OnlyFans. But like, I think if I found out my partner had an OnlyFan, that is a violation of if it involved like other partners or risky behavior, that's a violation of my consent because then my is about my informed consent, right.

So this is something that we've talked about quite a bit, is like the rules of consent have changed pretty tremendously since we were kids. And consent used to sort of mean you either say yes or no to sex, and now it's about informed, enthusiastic consent. So it's it's not just about saying yes, you have to like make sure that your partner is enthusiastic.

And it's not just about saying yes, you have to make sure that your partner has all the information that they might say no, right? So, me and Tom are fucking and my goodness, I've heard that a thousand times, right, me and Tom were fucking I think if he finds out I have other partners or an only fans, he might say no. There's there is good reason to believe Tom might no longer want to fuck me because of my only fans. But you can find at only fans dot com forward slash Dear Old Dads.

0:10:35 Eli: Of you perverts is going to type that in just to check, and I want you to know you should be ashamed. You should be ashamed of yourself that you typed it in to check. Um.

0:10:41 Thomas: Better be getting a cut of those dildos you're putting in your butt.

0:10:44 Eli: Absolutely, are you kidding? No, you see, I did the hours, I calculated, and uh but, but that case, it would be about, in like, informed consent nature of things. But I guess I interested in, like because understand this on an intellectual level, I know that the rest of the world feels differently. I don't know how, like, secular people feel differently. I get where religious people do, obviously, because sky daddy's watching and he didn't want your wife you to get railed by an eggplant, you know, for 14.99 a month, like, that I get. But me give give me the secular worldview here. Sure

0:11:15 Tom: Yeah, OK, well, for myself, I got a I thoughts got on that. The first is that I think one of the things that you're acknowledging here here is that an OnlyFans is not the same thing as hanging out with her male buddies because it requires your informed consent. It falls into that sexualized category. And I think that that's sort of implied with your desire to have informed consent. I don't think you desire to have informed incentive, like, and I wanted to go hang out with our friend Joe, right. So So I that's think there's a distinction that I would like to just draw is that that is different.

Then I would also suggest that we know, I think at least I know, and many other people know that sex is qualitatively different than other physical activities, right? A season, like I can give my dad a back rub, but not a hand job, right. It is a qualitative, it's A qualitatively different activity than other activities. There's no reason we set age limits for sexual activity that we don't set for other physical activities. You so we treat sex differently because I think we know that it's qualitatively a different human experience and doesn't really analog well to other human experiences. And we, and we sort

0:11:40 Eli: Yeah, disagree.

0:11:59 Eli: But sure. Sure, absolutely.

0:12:21 Eli: Absolutely.

0:12:22 Tom: Of know that, right. So I think those are important sort of like places that I stand to start with. And then when it comes to, for me, for a relationship, relationship, like lot of what makes a relationship meaningful and special to me is the exclusivity that is built into that. And there are many different types of exclusivity that all kind of are additive and that are sacred. So sex isn't the only thing in my relationship, for example, that is exclusive, right? Am going to favor my wife's bids for attention in ways that will always favor her over everybody else, right? She has an exclusivity to my time. She has a certain exclusivity to an amount of emotional attention that I give her, right? And this is something I want to talk to you guys about too, is that there a way to have an emotional affair with someone, right,

0:12:22 Eli: Totally. Agree. Sure. Sure.

0:13:14 Eli: Yeah.

0:13:16 Tom: We believe that, right an emotional Affair implies that some amount of emotional exclusivity is or a standard that many couples have, right? And that going outside of that. So that exclusivity as part to me of what makes a relationship sacred and special. There's financial exclusivity as well that's important. I a limited amount of resources and those resources are are poured into my wife at a wildly disproportionate rate than I would pour them into Cecil, for example, or

0:13:26 Eli: I It was lovely that you bought him that Tiffany's choker, by the way, when he got fired. That was really classy, man. Yeah.

0:13:54 Tom: Right. Yeah. Like You my friend Michelle, for example.

0:13:57 Eli: Petty. If Haley to hold it against you.

0:14:00 Tom: My That was a long, difficult conversation. Conversation But

0:14:02 Eli: The Way, way It nestled into his chest hair. I'm sorry, I'm throwing you out, I'm interrupting for no reason, but it just looked lovely. Photo shoot was tasteful.

0:14:07 Tom: No. Actually, it was not the point was not to be tasteful. Yeah, a little little disappointed then we didn't hit our mark. So, are all additive or aggregated elements of a relationship for me, and sex is part of that, like the sharing of, like, the sexual experience between ourselves means that this is an intimate space that only we have to together. And because it's something that only we have together, among many other things that we have only sharing with each other, that's part of what makes that sacred. And that's part of that relationship different than my relationship with you, for example, which may have a certain amount of genuine love, affection, and intimacy, but doesn't rise to the same level as my marriage. So it from.

0:14:52 Eli: Okay, hurtful. Hurtful. I know we're disagreeing

0:14:54 Tom: That's where I I come at it from. Yeah, does does Any of that make sense to you at all?

0:14:54 Eli: Here, but there's no need to lash out, Tom. Wow, Thomas. It does. Here's where I get confused. And Thomas, I want to let you get a hand on the ball before I get into my confusion.

0:15:07 Thomas: That's what she said. Oh God, call the hospital.

0:15:11 Eli: She's not allowed to say

0:15:12 Thomas: Call the hospital if I'm that sick that I'm making that joke, it's over, guys. All right, it's been fun, get

0:15:09 Tom: Oh, No.

0:15:12 Eli: That to Tom. Oh God. Oh God. He's regressed to full dad. He needs to fall asleep in a lazy boy stat and say he's just resting his eyes.

0:15:24 Thomas: Some Bud Light on the IV. Uh, no, I, I think that this is a little bit, if you pardon me, Eli, it's a little bit philosophically kind of immature because think that it's just undeniable that there are things called social mores, there are live in society like do think there is the first impulse once you maybe shed religion or shed other things that tell you what to do to be like, "Fuck yeah, nothing is anything." But I think that honestly I'm just about the data, and one thing that's data about the world is how people perceive these things. And for one, I get, I totally get the conversation that would have been different. That's like, "You are totally cool with Anna doing that or whatever." It's the part where you're like, "No, no one's allowed to ever have a problem with this or they're the asshole," that I think is a little, it's a little silly. Like, you see that that's silly, right?

0:15:43 Eli: Do live in a society. Yes.

0:16:16 Eli: So I understand that everyone thinks I'm wrong, I do get that, I do understand that, here's

0:16:20 Thomas: I'm just gonna freeze that use that all the time.

0:16:24 Tom: Eli, welcome to My world, buddy, I am I?

0:16:25 Thomas: Yeah,

0:16:26 Eli: Exactly, um, but much like Tom, that has done nothing to dissuade me from my opinions because

0:16:31 Thomas: Yeah,

0:16:27 Tom: Yep, yep, yep. There we go. Double, triple down, buddy.

0:16:35 Eli: Like, vast majority of the people disagree with me about stuff that I know I'm right about, right? Like, whether or not God exists, and whether or not Supernatural is a good show, is the Big Bang Theory funny, right? Like, that was the number one show on television, but I know that show's not funny, it's deep, honestly.

0:16:47 Tom: That is not

0:16:49 Thomas: There are some objective truths in the universe, I agree, yeah,

0:16:51 Tom: Funny. That

0:16:54 Eli: You thank you, I guess my question is, and again, Thomas was so sweet to sort of cut this out of the Jonah Hill episode so it didn't make it sound like I was apologizing for Jonah Donut Hill, so by all means allow me to dig myself into this grave this time, Thomas, um, was a good cut, it was good at it, that made me seem not like an idiot, um, I guess my question is, because I agree with all those things. I agree that those are elements of relationships. I disagree that most people on the planet share them. I guess my question is, since it seems arbitrary to me, right? Me, since it's arbitrary, right. And since the cutoffs of those lines are start at the relationship, um, but are often considered not to start before the relationship unless religion's involved. And then at

0:16:54 Tom: Is a collective delusion. Absolutely.

0:17:38 Thomas: Yeah,

0:17:38 Eli: Some point often it does, like, who hold those values, when your buddy Steve is like, "I don't know, man, I just don't like it. She goes out to lunch with her friend once a week and it's a guy, like, that's not okay with me, I want to be number one in her," in dates, like, do you, I don know why I did Carl the Pug of Pegacorn's voice there, but I, what, what doyou say to that person to be like, this is why this is different, and this is why it's bad, right? Because I think the use of this conversation, aside from the always hilarious opportunity for me to try to understand what human beings are like, is, think a lot of men out there do hold problematic ideas, maybe minor problematic, I don't know, a lot of men up there do hold problematic ideas about consent and monogamy, how do we tell them where the healthy, reasonable line is so that they don't think of you guys in the the sane world as the weirdos that I am?

0:18:31 Tom: I would fall back on, on two things and I feel comfortable with that. First First is I would fall back on the established sex is qualitatively different than lunch. We've all, we all agree that sex is a qualitatively different human experience. So I think drawing those analogs is it's just always a bad analog. Like sex is part of the human experience that has to be considered in its own box, in my view, because it is its own box. It is a quantitatively different thing that we do. And when people try to draw what I consider to be really puerile and stupid analogies, like, well, it's the same as like, no, no,

0:18:54 Eli: Wow, Tom, just all the personal attack, wow, and I, you're fat, Your ideas are Fat, Tom, they're big fat fat ideas, those Are what yours are

0:19:09 Thomas: You,

0:19:10 Tom: I I was going to I was gonna launch into one that I hear like I hear online. People are like, oh, how is it different than like being a construction worker? It's just something you do with your body. And it's like, we all know that's bullshit. It. We can all name a thousand reasons off the top of our head with little intellectual effort why that is a bad, shitty analogy. It's an analogy that is used, I think, often to drive to a point that someone wants to arrive at while excluding the context that sex lives in emotionally and socially. And have to set that aside and say, okay, how is it different than having lunch with your friend Steve? Right, well, All because it's not sex. No one's having sex.

0:19:44 Eli: Fair, sure,

0:19:52 Tom: But to your bigger point, that I think you were going to, because I understand your point, because, right, I think there is something here that I want to dig into, I would say, like, look, if my wife wants to have lunch with her friend Steve, go have lunch with her friend Steve. Enjoy your time and company with Steve. But, like, if my wife is going to go have lunch with her friend Steve four days a week and doesn't go have lunch with me, then, like, we have a problem here, right? We no longer have lunch with a friend, Steve, we have potentially an emotionally threatening relationship because we talked about the emotional affair to start out with. So, like, I think some amount of, if you're going to maintain exclusivity as a value in your relationship, emotional, physical, or otherwise, some amountof boundaries around how deep relationships can safely go is something both parties need to agree on. Any kind of agreement between those parties is necessarily fair as long as it's agreed on because it's informed, enthusiastic, and consensual to borrow from that sexual language.

0:19:51 Eli: Sure, okay,

0:20:53 Thomas: Lost me a little bit there, because I'm somewhat in the middle, where I think people can agree to basically whatever, and then those are the terms under which they have an agreement, you know, and then that'll be different from person to person, but I do think there's a set of things that we all take for granted socially that it's reasonable to expect expect to be on the same page with just by default.

And, uh, then also, um, I think that the sky falling thing that Eli, you're setting up doesn't really sway me at all. I think, what happens if someone is like, "Yeah, yeah, sexual exclusivity, that's why I'm going to Mike Pence my wife." The solution is like, well, no, that's shitty. You, nothing's going to stop that anyway. Like, it doesn't make a rule that everybody will be like that. I mean, I think we have to look at it on a case by case basis.

And if you are friends with Mike Pence's wife, I guess, God forbid, it's not going to be us. If you're, if you're a lady and you're friends with Mike Pence, his wife, you got to try to be like, "Hey, this is kind of shitty that he does that to you." You know? Like, I think that's the social solution to it. It's not that people can't agree to have boundaries that they want.

0:21:54 Eli: So that's exactly the my question that I was about to bring up, and you put it so excellently, Thomas, right, guess the question I'm going to ask is, do we agree that Mike Pence's relationship with his wife is abusive, even though they are both both participating in informed, enthusiastic consent, that they've made a relational agreement about how the things they value and how they treat each other. Do we agree that that is ontologically bad? They are the assholes.

0:22:19 Thomas: Yes, Yes, I do.

0:22:19 Tom: No. No.

0:22:20 Eli: Ooh, a little yes and a little no. Tom, take me to no town.

0:22:24 Tom: Why a non -participant in that relationship, if Mike Pence is happy in that relationship with his arrangement, even though I think it's insane and and his life is happy in that relationship, and it's it's established, and it's a boundary that they to why, use your point, like, why do I care? No one is being harmed, no victim here. Literally, I can't imagine why there's a problem here. I think it's insane behavior, right? Think if he was saying this is proscriptive in some way, I would say, no, it's not, you're fucking insane. Sane, but the same way that I'm like, I have strong views on like my value around monogamy, right? Like, not trying to say like this is the only way that I demand other people live. I don't give a shit how other people I might, I look at relationship, a relationship from the outside and be like, "Oof, no, not for me. That doesn't seem good to me." But like, it's that's not prescriptive, that's just me being a mean girl.

0:22:31 Thomas: Help me. Yeah. Help Yeah, boy.

0:22:34 Eli: Handmaiden.

0:23:22 Eli: Thomas, tell Tom why he's wrong. For me.

0:23:23 Thomas: Yeah Yeah. Just outsourcing your debating to the to the shit guy. OK, yeah, I think that we utilizing a systemic kind of injustice against someone. I think there's no way they would be in that relationship if it weren't for the sexism brutal of religion that has conditioned our society to be OK with anything like that.

0:23:27 Tom: Yeah.

0:23:28 Eli: In between shits, please.

0:23:45 Eli: Monogamous, yeah. I've decided that the way I'm going to turn this to my argument is just to whisper my talking points underneath yours and hope that subliminally the listeners are like, no, Thomas and Eli were on the same page.

0:23:46 Tom: But

0:23:53 Thomas: Yeah, this isn't some organic agreement that two people, apropos of nothing, came up with. I mean, it draws on just centuries of sexism, and I think that's harmful. And I think it makes it different than just agreeing to any old conduct.

0:24:13 Eli: That's how I feel about the OnlyFans thing.

0:24:16 Tom: Me, let me return to the idea that I presented earlier because I, I want to get about

0:24:19 Eli: Back to how wrong I am, Tom. It's more fun there.

0:24:19 Tom: Yeah Yeah, let me get back to the idea of, of exclusivity, and and we don't have to necessarily talk about sexual exclusivity. But like, are there not parts of your relationship with Anna that you hold sacred and which are emotionally or otherwise exclusive, and that you value in part because they are exclusive? Or is that just a crazy Tom thing?

0:24:41 Eli: So here's the thing. I was thinking about that while you were talking. I didn't want to interrupt you with it because there are things that I hold very dear. Just not deal breakers to me, right? Right. And so I'll give you a relatively silly example, which I hope doesn't diminish the point. My wife calls two people in the world my love, me and her best friend in the world. When she answers the phone for her best friend and says, hello, my love. There's always a tiny piece of me that's like, that's me. Mine.

0:25:10 Eli: You're supposed to say that about me and and not other people.

0:25:10 Thomas: I really thought it was gonna be Madge, I really thought it's gonna be Match

0:25:14 Eli: I would, and again, maybe it's a silly example, so it's not apropos or useful, but wouldn't I be a place where I would feel comfortable drawing a line?

0:25:14 Tom: No, OK. So what it were something more practical? Right. Right. And this is, is something this that when I think about, when think about relationships which are not monogamous, one of the things that I come up against in my, in my thinking about this is like, we have a limited amount of time, attention, energy, and resources just of course, just yeah, of course. I mean, by the it's all dust by three in the same day. Like it's Just, that's just dust. That's just, that's just dust. Let's say you've got, got a relationship with Anna, and something happens, she's got this best friend and she loves her best friend. I am not devaluing that relationship. I also have people in my life that I love deeply. Say it's Tuesday at three o'clock, something and went wrong, Eli, you need to go to the hospital. Also, it's Tuesday at three o'clock and Anna's best friend needs to go to the hospital, hospital.

0:25:40 Eli: Toothpaste. That's True.

0:25:58 Eli: Of course yeah yeah

0:26:09 Tom: Got to choose somebody.

0:26:08 Thomas: Man, and Then, Batman, Joker, like, hangs them both in a bus.

0:26:11 Tom: No.

0:26:11 Thomas: And then, like,

0:26:12 Eli: Priority.

0:26:13 Tom: There are, there, but my, my point is I'm making a micro example. But there, there.

0:26:16 Eli: Yeah. No, You're making an argument about priority which is interesting, oh,

0:26:17 Thomas: Yeah yeah we

0:26:19 Tom: Are times when we can't be there, and we have to make choices in how we allocate our time, attention, resources, and one of the things about a marriage for me is that there is no question about how I will prioritize our hierarchy, distribute my time, attention, resources, and that there is going to be

0:26:39 Thomas: Get it you won't Fuck us, Tom, Jesus, you don't have to keep fucking god, sorry.

0:26:42 Eli: My god well

0:26:40 Tom: Right. So now, now, I mean, well,

0:26:43 Eli: With all the name calling he's done today, good luck.

0:26:45 Thomas: I'm Sorry. I Asked, I'm sorry I asked, okay, is that what you want to hear?

0:26:45 Eli: Tom.

0:26:50 Tom: By the third time you asked, I would have thought you'd take no, but you know, I'm in the nice pictures though. I appreciate the pictures.

0:26:55 Thomas: Eli.

0:26:56 Tom: They are, they are nice.

0:26:55 Eli: You're welcome yeah

0:26:56 Thomas: And I were very proud of them. Yeah

0:26:58 Eli: We use the same photographer Cecil used, I don't know if you knew we bought a Groupon.

0:27:00 Tom: So so how do, how do we contend with something like that? Because, like, yeah, she might say my love to her best friend, but if the chips are down, I'm guessing you'd be furious if she didn't choose you over her, right?

0:27:18 Eli: That's, that's what I was trying to think about just now, and I don't, maybe I'm being dishonest because you've surprised me in the moment and this isn't something I've thought of. I don't know is the answer. I feel like I would, right, I feel like I'd be like, hey, husband dibs, we had a party, we were matching rings, right? Like, I, like, there's at least a part of me that understands exclusivity on some level. It's not like I don't understand preference.

I think maybe it's the fact that, uh, specifically about sexuality, like it's align, the line is, is not necessarily about priority to me so much as it's about a line that I think is drawn by society, which sort of brings, brings me to the other point that came up for me, um, is like you both have brought up is like, we as a society have these agreements, right, and I, that's true, and that's why I'm the crazy one and I came into this conversation understanding I'm a crazy one, right, I, I have no illusions that like, hey guys, I'm gonna, I'm going to wake you all up to the truth, right, I

0:28:14 Eli: Am aware that it will be at least five years before everyone agrees with me, so, um, just like, like when all the gender is gone, uh,

0:28:14 Thomas: Yeah until All the ungendered bodies agree with you, real?

0:28:24 Eli: The non-gendered bodies will be fucking each other and agreeing with me. Oh man, there you go, center of my vision board, everybody, if you want to know what I'm manifesting. This year we've So society has these agreements, yes, absolutely, and I think that's where a lot of those lines are drawn for ourselves. We also know that society used to draw those lines other places, right?

0:28:26 Tom: Sure

0:28:32 Thomas: Window into your soul yeah, what

0:28:46 Eli: Um, we now know, even though they were normative for the time and it was okay for people to have disagreements and relational problems over them at the time, we now knows that it's weren't healthy lines to a draw, right? Know, the example I use is like Othello, right? Like, I mean, technically it's inferred that they're fucking, but like all he's got is a handkerchief and he's like, you gave my friend a hand kerchief I'm gonna murder you both, so we

0:28:45 Tom: Is

0:29:15 Thomas: Yeah

0:29:16 Eli: Understand, we understand that that was like

0:29:17 Tom: There a different example you can offer, like, I'm not being shitty, but like, can you offer a, can you just offer a different sample, like maybe like a 1950s Americana example? Rather than a 1600 Elizabethan

0:29:27 Eli: Sure. Sure I'm

0:29:27 Thomas: Something from the fifth folio or yeah, unless you

0:29:30 Tom: Yeah

0:29:31 Eli: Sorry I didn't realize that we all hated shade, wow, Tom, you're really shocking us today, first you attack us

0:29:33 Tom: I just don't know that that's accessible for everybody. This is a show because,

0:29:38 Eli: Yeah

0:29:40 Thomas: Want to explain it so Othello was in a park with a handkerchief in his one pocket, and then what happened after that?

0:29:47 Eli: Let me, let me figure, there's got to be a reference more modern than Shakespeare, right?

0:29:48 Thomas: Oh,

0:29:52 Tom: Also because the example you're giving is this, an assumption that there's cheating happening, which, which like, I think that's still a social more. So I don't think that we've deviated from that. Like I think, So if that's what you're saying is that we're still, we're still in broad social agreement that most relationships are going to be default monogamous and that sexual activity outside of that breaks, breaks the monogamy and is, is generally frowned upon.

0:29:57 Eli: Right, the standard Yep, still standard today. That's what I was saying, right, right.

0:30:16 Eli: But like, talking to someone's wife on the phone would have been considered a pretty major violation in the 50s, right? Uh, writing them letters, the memes that had Tom, let me attack you. The memes that me and Haley exchanged, pretty major violation in the 1950s. Also weird that she would have like hand drawn them or whatever the fuck she would have had to put them on the mimeograph or have some telegram guy be like, and then on the top, it's like me when I'm at the store. And then at the bottom, it is a lobster and he looks confused.

0:30:23 Thomas: Yeah, yeah

0:30:28 Tom: Sure. Right. Yeah. Okay.

0:30:49 Tom: But I'll be the, I'llbe the crazy person. I will be, I willbe happy to stick my neck out and be the crazyperson. I

0:30:53 Thomas: I Challenge you to a duel, sir.

0:30:56 Eli: That's literally where I thought we were about to get like, hey, let me be the crazy person, and fuck you never messaged my wife again.

0:30:59 Thomas: Somehow somehow a glove finds Its way through the internet, slaps Eli in the face.

0:31:06 Tom: I, I wouldn't, I don't obviously do do not give a shit that like you and Haley are friends that you send each other memes. Like I could, I do not care at all, but like just thinking out loud a little bit, like if I found no. No, I don't give a. But like, let's say for a minute that you sent her another meme and I break both your legs, you know? No, no no.

0:31:16 Thomas: You Maybe stop uh,

0:31:16 Eli: Interesting.

0:31:26 Thomas: Yeah.

0:31:28 Tom: Let's say, for let's save for a moment though, that you and Haley had a just meme relationship, just memes, just memes and chit chat, right. For years. And I didn't know about it. Would upset me. That would upsets me.

0:31:39 Thomas: For sure, I think that's true. Let

0:31:41 Tom: Even though there's nothing sexual going on, cause again, like this is not just sexual. It's why it brought up the emotional affair to start with. Right.

0:31:48 Eli: About agreements

0:31:48 Thomas: Yeah. I want to tack this one too, because the part of the question, Eli, I'm still wondering about is, unless I don't remember because I was too busy shitting, is it like, hey, I decided I wanted to to do in OnlyFans? You know, like, is there something there? Like, do you think people have a right to coast kind of on the expectations that they agreed to in the marriage or in the whatever, then someone comes in and is like, actually, I want to sell my body online. You know, do you have the opportunity to be like, okay, that's, you know, you do you, but that's not what I agreed to.

0:31:48 Tom: Right.

0:31:48 Eli: Yeah. Yeah.

0:32:15 Eli: I guess, ah, I don't know, it's tough because what if she's like, I want to have a meme relationship with Eli, right, and the person's like, no, that's not okay. Well,

0:32:23 Thomas: Then you'd be the asshole. Think that's

0:32:24 Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Right. I think so too. Like it, here's the thing, like I don't think, and I brought it up the way I did on on purpose, like I don't think secret relationships are ever good. Right. Like a secret relationship is always, in my view, a bad and unethical thing to do. Having secret relationships with people, even if they're not sexual, is a problem.

So for me, I would say like, yeah, I would say like every time if there's an am I the asshole question and there's a secret relationship, I'm going to be like, you're the asshole for having a secret relationship. You kept it a secret for a fucking reason. Right? Like we don't keep secrets from our spouses about relationships because they're normative and will be smiled upon. We keep secrets for reasons and they're generally nefarious.

But is an idea that I want to turn to you guys and see where you're at with it. I do think that there is something that sexual attention, which is perfectly fine to seek out and really should not be shamed and is often shamed by shitty, insecure men. And that is different than sexual exchange.

Platonic sexual attention would be, you gets dressed up and is feeling like they look good, or you like is in like their swimsuit or something is feeling like confident and how they look. And they want to take a picture of that and post that or something like that. Right. That's kind of returning to that Jonah Hill thing. I know that's not not what she was doing, but I'm sort of using that in a sort of analog.

I think it's OK, perfectly fine for people to seek out a kind of platonic sexual attention. And I do think that that is fundamentally different than sexual exchange. An OnlyFans is a sexual exchange, in my view. And that may not be the same view, Eli, that you hold.

Or you might hold it as a sexual change, but you just don't give a shit about sexual exchange in your relationship as being something that matters as one of the exclusivity markers that that makes up your relationship, but I'm curious if you guys have thoughts about that distinction or if that even makes any

0:32:25 Thomas: Yeah.

0:34:18 Tom: Sense to you

0:34:18 Thomas: I'm somewhat concerned that Eli is the Karen Pence, really, is what I'm concerned. Because we're like, hey, is there anything that, you know, your partner could do that would make you stand up for yourself and be like, hey, maybe I don't like that? And you're like no, can't think of a thing.

0:34:22 Eli: Interesting. Interesting.

0:34:22 Tom: Yeah

0:34:31 Eli: I mean, lots of emotional stuff. There's, there's a lot of like emotional, there's treating me badly. There'S being unkind to me. There's, uh, you know, abandonment and neglect and abuse and, and all those things. But I just, I guess I don't, for me, sexual exclusivity. Here's my question, For right? Tom then. Cause Tom, I like that you've drawn this distinction. And I think think we have similar mindsets, but mine is set in crazy town and yours is sent probably relatively sanely. Someone doesn't feel okay with that, right? You're talking to a guy who's like, I hate when my girl posts these swimsuit pics, like what's she doing it for? Right. And that's a lot of dudes, right.

0:34:39 Thomas: Well, thank God.

0:34:41 Tom: Yeah. All

0:35:08 Thomas: Yeah.

0:35:08 Eli: And it's probably even some of the dudes listening to this podcast. Do you convince them that's okay? Like how, what do you say to them that helps them understand that okay for their wives to do that thing, or that it's not okay for them to draw those lines? How do you convince a guy, hey, that's not a boundary you get to draw in a relationship, and

0:35:26 Tom: So I think that there's An

0:35:27 Eli: Then do It to you for my thing now.

0:35:31 Tom: Well, thing that I think we as people have to understand about ourselves is how just, just naturally, like how jealous are we just as people, Eli. It sounds like you're at a fuck, and on a continuum level you're a zero, right? Like, you You have, it sounds like you have absolutely no jealousy as part of your sort of internal makeup, maybe by virtue of the work that you've done on yourself, or just kind of a natural constitution.

0:35:59 Eli: Yeah, I wasn't born that way, but I, it's definitely work that I have done. Yeah, please.

0:36:03 Tom: I think that like is not always unhealthy to some amount of jealousy. I think that how we express our jealousy is more important than how we internally feel. Right, so let me give you this example using the difference between the platonic sexual attention and the sexual exchange. So, for example, and I'll like call out my own relationship here a little bit, like So So when I do live streams, so this is just like an example, when I go live streams, every single time that I do a live stream, somebody will make some comment about my body that is sexualized, like Every time. And Haley hates it.

0:36:23 Eli: Thank You Yeah And I won't apologize for it, I've told Hailey, in between memes I feel how I feel, he

0:36:46 Tom: Haley hates it every single time. Right. She doesn't bring that to my table as something that I have done. Right? Because there is no thing that I have done in

0:36:55 Thomas: You didn't do anything to be this sexy, Tom. I get it. You did nothing wrong.

0:36:57 Tom: In order it,

0:36:57 Eli: Does Though He Didn't have to get on that mountain bike six days a week to Make It so Toit

0:37:02 Thomas: You Yeah, and not drink any water. Yeah. Desiccate yourself.

0:37:05 Tom: Right,

0:37:03 Eli: Yeah, Yeah, Desiccate those desiccase Himself so those nips Pop come On Wear

0:37:08 Tom: Right.

0:37:09 Thomas: Turn yourself into a leathery jerky of sexiness. Yeah.

0:37:13 Eli: A long sleeve shirt for once in your life, Curry.

0:37:16 Tom: But, well, But that's, that's where I was going to go. So, I know, for example, that when I go and I do this live livestream that, like, there will be a certain amount of people who make these comments. I know that my wife doesn't like them. She doesn't bring that to my table as a problem for me to contend with. Right. She recognizes, like, yeah, I just don't like that because I'm a little jealous as a person, but, like, she's not going to like, make that a problem between she and I, she doesn't like type back to people that make the comments or anything. It's just sort of like, eh, I don't really like that, but like, whatever, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't actually matter. Let's say though that I like saw that comment and I decided, well, I like the way that comment made me feel, so I'm gonna send a picture of like me lifting weights or whatever it fucking is.

0:37:17 Thomas: My full

0:37:56 Tom: Like This person, never, never, Thomas, now

0:37:56 Thomas: Water bottle. Yeah.

0:38:00 Eli: Water Bottle All

0:38:00 Thomas: Yeah, completely. It doesn't even open.

0:38:03 Tom: What, what I've done is I've moved that from a sexual attention to a sexual exchange, and I do that, I think she's well within her rights to say that's fucked up, that is a fucked up thing to do, that violates our sexual exclusivity. Piece and I think That: That's fine

0:38:18 Eli: What if you get an only fans but you don't respond to messages which they all promise to do so I understand why I

0:38:22 Tom: It's still a sexual interchange I'm producing something intended to get people off right like hayley and I have joked before she's like oh my god I should sell pictures of my feet or whatever you know make fucking money just selling pictures of their feet or just selling their used underwear or whatever she's laughing but

0:38:37 Eli: Don't Know: What you're, talking about

0:38:40 Thomas: Eli's like, that's only ever lost me money. I just like barrels and barrels of money going out for that stuff.

0:38:42 Eli: And Oh And She Wanted to charge too much for them, yeah, no Tom, I, that, all right, finally we're on the same page, okay, it

0:38:47 Thomas: Yeah.

0:38:52 Tom: Like That in my view is a sexual exchange, like the person on the the receiving end is fantasizing, like, is facilitating a sexual fantasy, and that makes me uncomfortable, and so I get to say, like, hey, that makes me comfortable, I prefer that you didn't do that, and she gets to decide whether or not the sexual exchange is more important than my feelings, and I don't think my feelings there are so, they set such strict boundaries on her, her behavior or expression, that they're unreasonable. Does that make sense?

0:39:21 Tom: Let's Let's say Haley Does the dance stuff, right?

0:39:20 Eli: It does, what If Okay Which

0:39:23 Tom: Which she does.

0:39:23 Eli: She Does.

0:39:23 Tom: And she posts pictures.

0:39:23 Eli: She posts, used to post the videos and stuff.

0:39:25 Tom: Yeah. So when she was, when better, she posted pictures and and videos and some of those videos and some of those pictures were a little sexy, right. Like they did not, in my view, cross the line into a sexual exchange. They were platonic sexual attention. And I think it's okay for people to want a little bit of platonic sexual attention outside of their their relationship or partnership. And I don't think anybody should feel any, I don'T think anybody should respond outwardly to feeling threatened by that. I don't want to dictate how people feel inside, but I think, like, you should control your shit if you feel a little jealous about somebody's desire for a little platonic sexual attention. That's fine.

0:40:00 Tom: Nothing wrong with that. There's no sexual, but if, if somebody were to comment back to her, like, you saucy fucking comment, and she were to, like... Yeah, and, yeah, let's say somebody's like, yeah.

0:40:00 Eli: So do we get skronking it?

0:40:10 Tom: Yeah, I really enjoyed masturbating to this. And she didn't block that person.

0:40:09 Thomas: Oh, I've been skunking It so hard. Whoa. Master bit we're talking about skronking, whoa, sicko, holy shit, children listening

0:40:17 Tom: Yeah. Oh, if somebody, somebody like was like, oh my God, that'S so hot. You was jerking off to this, I would expect her to block that person. I would, I'd be like, yeah, block that person. That person's gross. Like that person is engaging in a sexual exchange with you. And like, if you don't block that person, you're engaging in a sexual exchange with them.

0:40:24 Thomas: Skronkings and I'm

0:40:25 Eli: Yeah, you'd expect them to blog it.

0:40:37 Eli: Sure. So Sure. Here's my question. Here's my question, Tom, right? Because again, don't worry about the three perverts who agree with me and two of them are just my sock puppet accounts. I think there's probably a lot of guys out there, a lot men, maybe even women too, possibly women out there who deal with this jealous feeling when there are unhealthy boundaries, right, which are like, I really don't like that she posts a swimsuit picture. Do I get more healthy ideas is around that, right? I My, don't have good advice for that. I'm like, you should read the ethical slut and then squeeze real hard and then you don't Have sexual jealousy anymore. Like that's not good. That's not Good for so many

0:40:38 Thomas: Somewhere in between and

0:40:40 Tom: Yeah.

0:40:47 Thomas: Yeah.

0:41:11 Eli: Reasons. But as someone who is probably in the same place as they are, at least philosophically speaking, what do you recommend people do if they have those feelings and they want to have more healthy boundaries in their relationships? Relationships? Sure.

0:41:24 Tom: I Do think that like those, especially feelings of jealousy, I think you have to interrogate, self-interrogate that feeling, decide where it comes from. Um, part of it is yours?

What part of it is, um, result of a certain behavior, decide where your boundaries around sexual exchange and sexual attention are, make sure that those are healthy and do all of that work before you talk it out with your partner so that you're not reacting just to this emotionality or insecurity that you feel, but you're reacting to saying like, look, all cause I'm, I'm happy to tell Haley, like, and we've had this conversation in these explicit terms, right?

Cause it goes both ways where I'll be like, look, this makes me feel jealous, like I don't want to feel jealous, it just isn't a nice feeling for me, I would prefer that these kind of boundaries are maintained. And like, they're all about like, okay, cool, like, we're on the same page with that, right? I think like genuinely if you can't find middle ground on this, you haven't found the right person to spend your time with. I Think that this is like a fundamental point where agreement, agreement has to be. Even if you're like compatible in all these other areas, you like can't find agreement in this space, either one of you needs to change, which is not generally my, my advice, or you need to move on and find somebody where you don't have that toxic jealousy feeling that you can. You can't like middle ground into.

0:42:19 Eli: Yeah.

0:42:39 Eli: That makes sense, makes sense. And then finally, and I, I honestly think most importantly, before we get to my dad joke of the day, uh, if someone is skronking it to you on a live stream, what is a, what is the statement you're comfortable with them saying, Tom? That just to let you know, so you get to feel right, that platonic. What's a good keep?

0:42:53 Thomas: You

0:42:47 Tom: Just just keep that to yourself. I'm fine.

0:42:59 Eli: It to yourself, everybody, until

0:43:00 Thomas: Can tell me If you're skronkin to Tom, though.

0:43:01 Eli: Yes. If You're Oh, you know what, put a new Patreon level: skronking to Tom. It'll be what, we don't have like a six dollar to put a six dollars. One, you can tell Tom. How about this, if you are a six -dollar patron, you can tel Tom, every time you skronk it to him,

0:43:04 Tom: Oh my god no no no no you no no you cannot I don't care what level you blocked blocked locked.

0:43:22 Eli: Tom Tom does not consent to this relation, relationship that I am signing him up for. All right, gentlemen, before we go. I got stuck in an elevator once. Now, I take steps to avoid them.

0:43:26 Thomas: Non -consensual little skronkage.

0:43:42 Thomas: Good times. Sweet.

0:43:43 Tom: Oh, I do

0:43:50 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

0:44:30 Thomas: Oh man, I forgot the other point I was going to make. Damn it. Um, yeah, it probably sucked.

0:44:33 Tom: I bet it was shitty though. No, No, I just meant because you're shitting. I'm not. I was just making a shitty joke.

0:44:37 Eli: Is actively shitting I don't know if they'll cut it out in the edit everybody

0:44:41 Tom: I wasn't trying to riff on your point, man.

0:44:41 Eli: About him it's it's

0:44:42 Thomas: I Yeah. Um. No, I had, oh, man, I have it again.

0:44:45 Eli: All right he called my points puerile earlier thomas I don't know he's he's fucking on a knife's edge he said that construction workers are puerile. I don't know why he's LASHING OUT LIKE THIS ON THIS EPISODE well

0:44:47 Thomas: Yeah, yeah yeah. Sure. Sure.

0:44:47 Tom: No, it was the construction worker. The construction worker one was puerile. That's That's not, that's what I meant. God damn it. Fight