DOD85: Toughen Up, Son!

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's gotta get a thicker skin. I am Tom Curry. I'm joined, as always, by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:37 Eli: Hello and welcome to the circumcision episode. I like that your, um, your intro really fit this week, Tom. It's all coming together.

0:00:45 Thomas: Yeah. Rub some dirt on it, Tom. Fucking... Get up!

0:00:51 Eli: Hey, that's some people's holy tradition, Thomas. How dare you, you handysomes.

0:00:56 Thomas: Wait, what? Actually... Okay, I want to remind you, like, I grew up not knowing what Jewish people were. Like, literally not even... Is this a reference to something?

0:01:04 Eli: That's true. Yeah, no, you might know. I should have just used that opportunity to be like, you don't know, that is where we rub the matzah. And you would have been like, I guess they rub the Matzah there.

0:01:10 Thomas: Yeah, sure. Wait, do I have a Jewish voice or was that just your...

0:01:16 Eli: No, there's my, yeah, I've done my time. This is my thing. I

0:01:18 Thomas: Oh. Okay, that's It, you started to do your rabbi voice and me, I think, penis

0:01:25 Eli: All start here, and then it's just about whether it goes here or here. It's just, it's a widening of the soft palate is the only choice that's made. But the only thing worse than circumcision, gentlemen, do you know what that is? That's right. It's the auto ads. Yes, the genital mutilation of podcasting, if you will.

0:01:35 Tom: Oh, my fucking God.

0:01:48 Eli: Totally unnecessary, doesn't need to happen, and yet millions of people every year do it, leaving behind the scarred remnants of what might be an enjoyable comedy show, but there is a way for you to keep your podcast penis intact, and that's by becoming a patron over at patreon.com forward slash that's Right, well, no, you can just wrap it around a fucking mouthpiece for a trumpet, it, but not with podcasting, with podcast thing. It's only going to patreon.com forward slash Dear Old Dads, you'll get a commercial-free version of every single show that you can play on any podcast player, as well as a little behind the bonus, uh, parenting story. I don't want to spoil this for all of you Dear Old Daddykins, you deep knowledge havers, but, um, on last week's episode, Tom reveals how he broke the Sonic game, uh,

0:01:59 Thomas: Oh yeah. Comedy show they have surgeries for that at patreon.com yeah

0:02:43 Eli: And so you're, if, if you're struggling with a similar game uh, you just want to hear Tom have a moment of victory, you can sign up over at patreon.com/dearolddads, right.

0:02:45 Tom: All

0:02:55 Thomas: All My dudes, I have been wanting to talk about this for a while because I just noticed it. Was maybe, gosh, it's maybe almost a year ago now where I was having, I think Arlo was going through a bit of a phase, you know, he's four, he was, three you then and, you know, he was crying a lot. He was, you know, having some difficulties in different ways, and I just distinctly remember having this feeling like I just had this realization like my is crying to me about, you some nonsense because he's a kid. It's always, you know, some nonsense as far as an adult is concerned. Just had this quick little feeling of like, just that old toxic masculinity. You know, I just had a little feeling like, all right, you kick, come on, man, toughen up your bit. Like in, I didn't say this. In my mind, I had like just a little thought of like, geez, dude, you're really, you're crying. You're coming to me with the tears again over this thing. Like, come on, can you talk?

And then I was like, wait, no, I'm not going to do that at all. And I just realized, though, how easy it is something in that moment. I realized how easy it is for dudes who think they're fucking tough, or who are overcompensating, or who want to seem tough, how easily it is in that momento to take that out on your male child, to, to kind of put that shit on them and shame them for crying, even though they're three because, because they're fucking three, they're crying over a toy or something, but it just felt like, oh, this is a really easy bullshit thing that shitty bad men dads get to do, which is have this feeling of like, be a real man, you stop crying, and like, yeah, it's a crying

0:03:24 Tom: It's always garbage grow

0:04:28 Thomas: Child

0:04:28 Tom: Up already you're four, Jesus.

0:04:28 Thomas: Exactly but it puts you in that position of this like power of this, you know, getting to take on, you don't know what you were like when you were fucking three or four, you have no fucking idea. You were, were probably the toughest guy in the world. Whoever, the history of the world, the toughest guy, probably a fucking cry baby at three years old, cause that's just what you do when you're three, you

0:04:30 Eli: Right that kind of shaming does not breed emotional resilience. Right Like that, we, I can't claim to know what fucking Duane the Rock Johnson was like, like as a child, but I can say that every psychiatrist is like, yeah, no, this is not how you breed emotional resilience. This is how you breathe psychopathy and like real emotional stunting, which has been one of the sort of hardest things for me to learn, is like, I, my parents talk to me about being spoiled a lot when I was a kid, and I was, right, obviously.

0:04:53 Thomas: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:05:18 Thomas: No, you don't do have to pretend to disagree. Oh no, you weren't spoiled.

0:05:22 Eli: I think maybe they talk to be about it a little bit too much, because then it became, became kind of sort of about invalidating my emotions, right, not necessarily always, but like, I had a problem and I was a little kid, and I was maybe not behaving my best, my parents were like, you're spoiled rotten, right, and they always said it with love, right, and they always set it in a joke, but it sort of instilled in me this idea that like, children can be spoiled, and the truth of the matter is, at least as far as I know, it's the way you spoil the child is not with too much love, right? You do it with abuse, right. The notion that we have of the spoiled, selfish child, the child who hurts people, the child who treats other people badly, that child way more likely is being created by a negative punishing environment than an overly permissive one.

0:05:57 Thomas: Right.

0:05:59 Tom: Right I, I want to go back real quick and ask you a follow-up question, Thomas, did, did you have similar feelings at all with Phoebe, or did you find that this was like, like a uniquely, yeah.

0:06:19 Thomas: Exactly. No. That, that was, was the second, second part of it, yeah, no. Totally, there's a gender thing, go.

0:06:22 Tom: So when Phoobe cried, you didn't feel the same way. You didn't feeling the same need to sort of like correct her crying.

0:06:27 Thomas: Exactly I, I mean, I'll be honest, she, she a lot, and I'm having, I'm haven't struggles with that, the a separate podcast, like I'm legit, we're having times where, like, she just be half, probably half the days, once she comes home from school, she's just, every single thing. It's, it's like an SNL sketch where everything that happens, if the sketch was, hey, pretend every word that someone says is your best friend from childhood just died in your arms. And be like, we don't have mac and cheese. And then it'll be, like, crying for, you know, and it's hard. I'm trying so hard.

I don't know what to do. I'm not, you Know, like that's a separate episode. But back before that, when she was just doing normal, cry normal stuff. Stuff. Yeah. I truly believe we have a different gendered reaction to when your little girl is crying than your little boy is crying. Not in love with it either. Like it's hard when your kid is crying way too much. And parents know what I'm talking about here. This is not like, Oh, they got hurt and they're crying. This Is like, okay. You're crying for the fifth time because a Lego is the wrong shape or something. You know, it's just just nothing

0:06:54 Eli: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Right.

0:07:03 Tom: Yeah. Oh, I do too. Yeah.

0:07:29 Tom: Right.

0:07:29 Thomas: Like a bunch of those in a day. You get to your 10th one in a day and you're just like, buddy. All when Phoebe would do that, you're totally right, Tom, not the same reaction. And that was part of that realization in that moment is if I were an old timey shitty dad or even even current time shitty dad, there's plenty of them. That's such an easy opportunity to just fucking appear like like you're the big man. Cause just by default of being 30 years old or whatever it is, you you have some amount of control over your emotions. Well, let's be realistic. Probably not, but you have at least, you haven't at least learned to not cry in public if you're that kind of, you know, toxic dude.

0:07:30 Tom: Yeah.

0:07:30 Eli: Yeah. Mm hmm?

0:08:03 Tom: Okay. Hey.

0:08:04 Thomas: It's unreasonable to expect that your three, four year old boy has anything like that. And I just felt this realization and it was kind of nice. I was like, oh yeah, I'm just going to not do that. That's a cowardly, toxic, masculine way out of something. And I don't have to do that, and so I do my absolute best. It's really hard. I think that this is something, if you're a parent, you need to keep an eye on. I try to react the same way with Arlo and Phoebe. Me. I give him the same amount of nourishment, same amount of love. Arlo, I I never told him to like, come on, man up, dude, toughen up. None of that. Like, I'm just going to treat them the fucking same. And you know, if that means Arlo is like a softy or whatever the, I Don't fucking care. Who cares? He'll be nice. People actually like him. That'll be, that'll be something that he'll have to deal with.

0:08:52 Eli: Yeah. Interesting, the other side of that pendulum that often doesn't get acknowledged from the other side, right? Because you're like, okay, I don't want to be toxically male. But then there's the other side where it's like, well, you have to validate every single emotion they've ever had. And if the Lego doesn't fit for the fifth time, that's when you open your arms wide and say, well buddy, let's just cry together. And you're like, no, there has to be, there is also that part of like self empathy that requires you to be like, oh man, this is about nothing, thing but I'm going to be a good parent anyway right, that people feel like they need to invalidate their own experience if they're going to be empathetic to their kids

0:09:05 Thomas: Right. Right. Mm -Hmm. Mm-hmm.

0:09:25 Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Aislinn came into my life. Aisling's the only girl child that I've helped to raise. She came into my life at the age of six and she had real big emotions that surprised me, like Finn and Eamon did not have the size and expressiveness of the emotional reactions that Aislinn had. I found, like, with all the kids, like, I was a real struggle for me not to be like, that's fucking nothing like for all of them, you know, like it like I don't like it. Like I don't like the big emotionality, like the, the fucking waterworks and the drama and all of it.

But like Haley has helped me remember, and I think I've always been outwardly good at it, but like inwardly, I was like a lot of me just always was like, for fuck's sake again, like in my brain, but I would never let it out. But, that really, like she helped me kind of calm that down because Haley has a really good sense of remembering what I don't. I don't remember. I don't know about you guys, but I don't really remember what it felt like to be a little kid. I don't remember what it felt like viscerally to be

0:09:50 Eli: Right. Yeah. Yeah.

0:09:51 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Mm -hmm.

0:10:25 Tom: A little kid, she, but, kind of helped me understand and empathize with is when

0:10:28 Thomas: Childhood was robbed from you by the car wash, by a snapping turtle. A snapping turtle ate your childhood.

0:10:32 Eli: Exactly. By a Snapping turtle. Yeah.

0:10:35 Tom: It's Savage Arnold took my childhood. It. But like for little kids, like is fucking enormous. The size of their reality is so much bigger than the size of our reality. And I, when I really sat back to think about it, it's like, well, like you didn't get your fucking thing you wanted to eat. Who fucking cares? But it's like, you know, who cares? Very evidently you like, you very evidently are telling me in this moment that you care just because like you can't shrug it off the way I think I want you to shrug it off is a, that's my mistake, like I'm the one in failure here empathetically, and I, I really had to take time to like embrace that concept and like try to remember intellectually what it was like to be a kid, because emotionally I can't connect with that space anymore.

0:10:36 Eli: Yeah. Yeah.

0:10:42 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Mm -hm. Yeah.

0:11:23 Tom: So I really have to do it like in this really intentional way. No,

0:11:26 Thomas: I love that you said that, Tom, because that comes back to what I am going to say is mine and yours conception of masculinity, which is competence and part of competence, adaptability, flexibility, being able to recognize those situations and adapt to them. I love that. I don't think it's the more manly thing to tell a crying three-year-old, ah, shut up. Like that's, you're an idiot. Like, that's not, you know, like it is actually more, you in the positive masculinity that I think you and I care about a lot, which is like, you know, competence being, you know, being a good person, being able, being competent in that moment means knowing the fucking situation, knowing who you're dealing with, what their their emotions are going to be and knowing what you need to do to support them best. That's competence.

0:11:47 Tom: Yeah. Yeah.

0:12:12 Tom: And you know, I wrote this thing a long time ago, and I, I think about it every time it comes up in my memories, but I wrote a thing like 10 years ago when I was raising, when I just had Finn, they're like, I don't want to raise a tough guy. Like, that's not what I want. Like, I, I thought about this a lot, I was like, the world's got enough tough guys, like I'm not looking to add one to the fucking tough tough guy pile by like raising a goddamn tough guy. I want to raise like, to your point, Eli, I want, I want a raise somebody who's emotionally resilient. I wanna raise somebody who's smart and who's empathetic and who understands the value of work. I, there's a lot of things I want to raise in a person, but like a tough guy, like, I don't want that.

0:12:50 Tom: I don't want to pass on this sort of like value of stoicism, even though So like, admittedly, that's kind of built into me personally. Like I value it in myself, even though I don't want my kids to continue that forward. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like I'm already garbage, right?

0:12:25 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

0:13:07 Tom: Like I'm all ready to just a heaping pile of trash by the side of the road. I'm probably already cooked in that way. Joked about it before. Like, Like I don'T, I do not want to cry. Like crying is an unacceptable response for my body to have. I can barely do it for more than 30 seconds. It feels gross. And I, maybe every handful of years for a minute, I might leak a little bit, but I'm like, Oh God, it's fucking horrible. And

0:13:30 Eli: You schedule it, it's weird that you schedule it, Tom. Can I say that's the, yeah.

0:13:34 Tom: I just, I hate it. Like, it'S a horrible, like I have to be pushed to a place of just, just unbelievable extremity in order to get my body to react that way. And I don't want that for my kids. Right. I want my kids to be able to like like emotionally respond to joyful moments, to sad moments, to all of that. So I don't want them to like value stoicism in that way that like generationally, I think we've been taught to value. So

0:13:39 Thomas: Yeesh.

0:13:58 Thomas: Yeah, totally. I absolutely hate stoicism. I fucking negative value it. I think it's the, actively I hate it. Yeah yeah

0:13:59 Eli: Yeah. It's insane. It's is a weird, and luckily there's very little of it in our community, because there, a teeny tiny, that pie chart of the atheism, skepticism movement and the stoicism movement, like the two circles just barely touch. So occasionally you run into that, like, I just don't see a reason to get emotional about these kind of things.

0:14:23 Thomas: Yeah.

0:14:23 Eli: And you're like, cool, so your lived experience is just kind of meh, huh? You're just kind of, you're kind of taking this one easy. Maybe you're going to care about the next life, the next lived experience you get

0:14:26 Tom: Yeah. Yeah.

0:14:27 Thomas: Is the point? Yeah yeah. So glad you said I was having the same thought where it's like, that's like saving money for the afterlife. What live, dude. Like just what, what is that? Don't understand what that's accomplishing. It's the weirdest thing to me.

0:14:42 Eli: Quote to the internet meme, men will do anything besides go to therapy, right?

0:14:45 Thomas: Yeah.

0:14:43 Tom: I, will say just, for just myself, like I don't think I'm like that hard stoic. Like I'm very expressive and emotional and like I like hug and kiss. I'll express a lot of very positive emotions like with people. But like, just think the, just way that I was raised and my dad wasn't, like I think this is kind of an important corollary. Like my dad didn't frown up on crying. If I cried as a kid, he didn't shame me for it.

He didn't like give me grief for it, but dad didn't express himself that way. It just was something that like, as I got older, I was like, okay, this just isn't how we express ourselves. And so we just kind of all stopped expressing ourselves in these sort of, like, so in sad moments at funerals and like, I've seen my dad cry one time in 45 years of my life. I saw him cry when we put our dog down.

We've been through a lot as a family, like we've had experiences, but that was the only moment where my dad broke that veneer or whatever it is. I don't even think it's a veneering. I think like, if you're just socialized that way, at least for me, it's really genuinely physically uncomfortable and difficult to get my body to even do that work. And I don't want that for the kids. I really don't all.

I And was thinking of a corollary to this too, is we don't wanna raise these tough guy kids. We don't wanna do, I also think for boys, and I don't know if this is like something you guys have experienced, but I see a lot of girls who grow up into young women who still cuddle with their parents, still snuggle up right next to their parents, and I have never seen a boy. There's an age at which like boys just start to receive less affection, and think those things are kind of hand in hand. You know what I mean?

0:14:48 Eli: Yeah,

0:16:14 Thomas: Yeah.

0:16:14 Tom: Because like they're all part of that expressive connection. I've never seen like a 15 year old boy cuddle with his mom. I've seen so many 15 year olds girls cuddle their parents.

0:16:21 Thomas: Tom, is 100% where I was going to go next time. This is where we're still on the same page here. Cause that was goingto be my question. You know, my thing always is I I'm doing my best to like, I all my idiot programming and all that. And I've worked really hard at, but I have that thing.

The recurring theme for me is sometimes I don't know where the healthy thing should be where I'm like, okay, my reaction is obviously you would have no physical contact with your father of any kind. That would be my, that's, where I'M, you know, what I've been trained with, but I don'T want that. And so I have a hard time with this very thing where I wanted to go was I have noticed And again, Arlo's young. I could be reading too much into it.

But I have noticed that Arlo has turned into the sweetest little sweetie pie in the history of time. He's an affectionate, loving little boy. When we're doing the Hogwarts castle, I've noticed it's really funny. We sit in these chairs next to each other. He just puts his arm on my shoulder the whole time. And it's a way it's hard to describe, but like way it is, I can tell it's, It's it's. A little, it'S just a little different than I think is anything I would have done or, you know what I mean? Like it's just this

0:17:28 Thomas: Interesting affectionate thing. Yeah, yeah, but like in a way that's, that, like I'm not even sure she does the same thing. It's nice. And I found myself being like, okay, I- do you guys remember the Tom Brady thing? Oh, it's a sports- oh no, here's the sports that you

0:17:28 Tom: Yeah, here.

0:17:29 Eli: It's physical affection.

0:17:44 Eli: You're all alone, buddy. You're alone.

0:17:44 Thomas: No,

0:17:46 Tom: We go take us down this train

0:17:46 Thomas: Is one of the one of Those ones that you want to know, trust me, this is a reference that you're going to want to to know, because Tom Brady was photographed. Like, he- I don't remember if it was a magazine. No, I think he posted it on his own Instagram. Can you guys do me a favor real quick and just Google "Tom Brady kissing son" or something like that? It was a huge thing. Like, just so you know what I'm talking about. Was in a massive, like, news because he posted on his Instagram. 'Gram.

0:17:50 Eli: I'll be the judge of that.

0:18:13 Eli: Okay, they're kissing on the lips, Tom -mas. They're kissing on the hips.

0:18:14 Thomas: Are they, I actually don't remember here

0:18:19 Eli: Hey.

0:18:18 Tom: Okay, also this is a weird picture, they're also like this is it's not just that they're kissing on the lips. Yeah, you got to describe this picture because it's not just that they're kissing on the lips, it looks like they're making out. I-

0:18:20 Thomas: We go here we go

0:18:20 Eli: Hey. Hey, Thomas. Not this. Not this, man. Man he's okay. Hey, hey, hey, so Google has yielded for me is, uh, Brady is lying shirtless on a massage table, being massaged by another man, and his 11-year-old son bends over him and gives him a Spider-Man kiss on the lips. Um, it's

0:18:38 Thomas: Wait what okay that, okay is that- now I'm worried that the AI- is that what it was? That's not my memory, I'm trying to look here. No,

0:18:58 Eli: What I'm looking at right now.

0:18:59 Tom: Mean it's part of the Newsweek article. Like, yeah,

0:19:00 Thomas: Yeah, no, you might be right. Yeah, okay, I didn't remember that part. I think there-

0:19:04 Eli: It's not this. It's Not This. I was literally, Tom, I gotta tell you, I was just about to be like, actually, my family is very physically affectionate. I Was Physically Affectionate Older. The men in my family are very physically affectionate to our children, even when they're adults, not, not to this, this is, this,

0:19:09 Tom: Oh,

0:19:23 Thomas: You go, and I don't know, you're telling me this is over the line. Okay, forget the shirt, I didn't know the shirt, but like there's another one where he's kissing him on the lips now what? Who said?

0:19:25 Tom: Also says the kiss lasted three seconds. That's what it says. I'm I'm literally looking at a Newsweek particle. Like, he's it's like, the kids, the kid, they're- they're perpendicular, mouths, dad is shirtless, and the son kisses him on the mouth for three seconds. That's a lot, dude.

0:19:35 Thomas: Jeez, holy crap. Okay, three

0:19:47 Eli: Mm-mm.

0:19:48 Thomas: Seconds.

0:19:48 Tom: That's what it says, yeah, That's

0:19:49 Thomas: Yeah, that's crazy. I

0:19:49 Eli: Mm, nope I can see it and I don't, nope mm -hmm, I

0:19:51 Thomas: Didn't remember that. That. Yeah, no, I, yeah,

0:19:54 Tom: A lot that's a whole lot for me, look, I Fit is 16, and I give- that kid, every weekend I have him I probably hug him 20 times unsolicited. I'll just come up to him like "come here buddy" and I'll give him a great big hug. I am a very physically affectionate dad, but I'm not- like, we ain't making out, like, I'm- I'm not slipping them tongue.

0:19:56 Eli: Don t, mm nope this is not for me, so

0:20:13 Thomas: I want to send you guys the one I had in mind. I think I actually missed the shirtless one.

0:20:18 Eli: Mm I, hey, hey why don't- actually, why don't, instead of you doing that- hey in, hey fucker, instead of doing that, how about instead you Google "Tom Brady kissing son" and see what we saw and experience what I experienced.

0:20:23 Tom: I feel uncomfortable with you sending these images to me.

0:20:28 Thomas: I am. Yeah. No, I did. I have. No. No I have. I'm with you. I hadn't seen that. No! I'm agreeing with you there. I want talk about the one I did see because I'm, now I want to know, is this beyond the line? Like I'm trying to find, I wanna know the the line. Yeah. I'm going

0:20:37 Tom: This feels like a dangerous series of images to transmit back and forth.

0:20:44 Thomas: Yeah, no, it's a, don't worry. It's a link.

0:20:47 Eli: I've Already, I'm already fighting a lot of history when it comes to this shit, Thomas.

0:20:48 Thomas: I want this one, this one. This is the one I remembered. Uh, so I must've come into the story late. Cause I think maybe this was like the second thing. So it was like something they were, I don't know, at a pool and he was behind his son and he's kind of kissing him on the back of the head. And this was the one I saw everybody roasting of like, oh, can you believe it? And that's where I was like, okay, but like, I, you know, I munch on my little kiddos. Like I, I'm gonna, yeah, that's fair.

0:20:51 Eli: Um, yeah,

0:20:58 Tom: Are you

0:21:14 Eli: This is fine, except I also have that video of him kissing his son on the, like, the context

0:21:20 Thomas: Yeah, that's true. It does matter.

0:21:20 Eli: Of It makes it not fine, right? You, once you share a Spider-Man kiss with someone, someone on the mouth, this is wrong.

0:21:30 Tom: Us a Spider-Man kiss.

0:21:31 Eli: Come

0:21:31 Thomas: Oh, Tom, come on. Okay. Google spot.

0:21:33 Eli: On, Tom. Thanks.

0:21:35 Thomas: That's going to make the joke way funnier. Did you notice the the sun's nipples were really hard. Yeah. It was raining.

0:21:37 Tom: Oh, I got it. Okay, all right.

0:21:43 Thomas: Nipples were thrown through the shirt.

0:21:43 Tom: I got it. All right.

0:21:47 Thomas: So the one I had seen and I, okay, I want to be very careful. Cause yeah, that first one that does lend a different color to it. I hear you. Uh,

0:21:53 Eli: Man, Well, Here's the crazy thing, Thomas. Live in my lived reality for a second where you were like, yeah, and I mean, like some people are so afraid of physical affection and I'm in my head, I'm like, yes, absolutely, such a great idea, and you're like, you know what, actually, just Google it so you guys can see what we're talking about, and I don't need to Google it, like physical affection between men and their sons is so good, and then you show me the first three frames of something that usually has hub in the title of the website, and I've, I have to take a hard right into Nopesville ever

0:22:13 Thomas: Yep.

0:22:27 Thomas: Yep. Do

0:22:28 Tom: All right, look, let's back off of Tom Brady, just say like, I think it's okay to kiss your kids, but not an on the mouth

0:22:33 Thomas: Yeah. Do. Okay. That's what I want to ask you. When do you age out of the kissing them on the mouth thing?

0:22:36 Tom: No, I don't do that immediately, when they're born, I'm

0:22:40 Thomas: What?

0:22:40 Tom: I'm not kissing baby's mouths now.

0:22:41 Thomas: Oh, I, I kiss the kids on the mouse all the time, what, you don't kiss your little babies on their little mouths, what just a little, I'm not saying make out with them, you just go nothing baby

0:22:42 Eli: There's No, baby mouth kisses nope that's, that's not where we kiss, nope nope

0:22:55 Tom: I I'll be like, I, not because I have like a weird issue with it. Like, I just think baby mouths are gross.

0:22:55 Eli: Nope have a weird issue with it, cheeks

0:23:00 Tom: Like baby mouths Are full of spittle and spit up and schmutz, you know, like I'm Not into, yeah, it's just kind of gnarly. I'm like, I'll kiss your forehead. I'll Kiss your cheek.

0:23:02 Thomas: Mouths are maybe this is like a one -year-old thing, yeah no, that's true that's truth oh

0:23:10 Tom: You know?

0:23:10 Eli: I'm all about those sweet little cheeks because I don't want to fuck my kid is the thing kiss

0:23:11 Thomas: Yeah, I ate those little cheeks that's

0:23:12 Tom: Yeah, no problem. Like I'll, I'll give you some raspberries on the belly, but like, I'm not, I'm not smushing up in your nasty old

0:23:19 Thomas: A good point, you bring it, we bring up a good point yeah

0:23:21 Eli: Here maybe there's a cultural difference, and I'm sure an anthropologist in the comments is going to be like, actually guys, this is from, and I'll be like, oh, okay, cool, but the mouth kisses are for romance, that's what those are, mouth

0:23:24 Thomas: Wow no there's no age, no age at which, which, well, you guys also had boys when, okay, is there a girl difference? Because I know, I feel like Phoebe, I feel Like We Did Little Pics. I don't remember now. Now weirding me out. Is that weird? I don't know.

0:23:48 Eli: I you know, you're, are weirding me out because you were the one that was like, hey man, check out Tom Brady just fucking tonguing his 11 -year -old.

0:23:54 Thomas: No, that's weird. No. I hadn't seen that one. That one is weird. I agree.

0:23:56 Tom: All right, Google Tom Brady eats his son's ass, that's the next one we're gonna

0:24:00 Thomas: Oh, God. Is this a children's program? No, it's not. It's really not.

0:24:06 Thomas: Okay. Okay, I think it's a little bit too far to say no kisses on the lips at any age of any kid ever. That little too far for me. Am I crazy? Little pecks, little peck.

0:24:17 Tom: It's it's not appealing to me to kid like it's not, that's not where I'm, I

0:24:20 Thomas: Okay, that's fine. Not saying you have to. I'm saying, is it a weird thing if someone...

0:24:26 Eli: Yeah, for sure it's a weird thing. Hey, for surer it's weird. Hey, you want to know the best guide for if a thing is weird? If I think it's weird, super weird. Super weird.

0:24:28 Tom: Yeah,

0:24:28 Thomas: Okay. You think being poor is weird, so...

0:24:38 Eli: Because here's

0:24:38 Tom: I will amen

0:24:38 Eli: The thing, I think a bunch of weird stuff is not weird.

0:24:41 Thomas: Yeah.

0:24:42 Tom: Amen is very, very, very affectionate, which I love. Like, we'll sit on the couch, like I said before, like every Sunday morning he and I have bro time. So I wake up before everybody else in the house, that kid never sleeps and like, yeah, we're just sweet as fuck you know, but we'll

0:24:51 Thomas: Where you just hardcore make out. It's like Tom Brady, his son, some bro time.

0:24:57 Tom: Seat on the couch and we watch a movie or something. It's just the two of us, like, while everyone else is asleep. And like, we absolutely cuddle. Like, he'll lay his head in my, my lap, he'll like put his arm around me, he'll like scooch up right next to me, so like we're, like, in very close contact. Absolutely he wants hugs. Absolutely, he does try to kiss me on the mouth. I suspect he probably kisses his mom on the month. I'm guessing that's why he does that. I fucking move every time. I'm like, nitpick, have a cheek.

0:25:14 Eli: Nope. Karate yeah

0:25:21 Thomas: Tom means he moves to a different house. Actually. That's how, no,

0:25:24 Eli: Yeah

0:25:25 Tom: I'm like, you get the cheek, buddy, and I've told him, I'm like, hey, dude, not on the mouth, like, we don't, I'm not, we're not kissing on the mountain, and

0:25:30 Eli: Go to Thomas's house if you want to fucking kiss on the mouth, if you wanna kiss an adult on the month

0:25:34 Thomas: That's too old. That's way too. I'm, I'm saying Arlo's already too old for this. I'm when they're little babies or whatever, like they're like one.

0:25:37 Eli: He

0:25:36 Tom: Yeah but I tell him it germs, I'm like, it's a germs thing. Dude, yeah yeah I just tell him so he doesn't have his feelings hurt. I want, people to think I'm trying to hurt my kid's feelings, like, so it doesn't, his feelings, I'm gonna, do, we don't do that because of germs, and like, he gets that kind of a little bit, you know? So yeah, I don't know, man, like, I'm not, I'm not a mouth kissing, you know, I'm with Eli, like that's a romantic gesture you know

0:25:43 Thomas: Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah, I don't honestly remember. I I feel like that's not out of bounds, but I DON'T remember now that you're challenging me on it. I DONT do it now. They're too old now. Every once Once in a while they'll do it it's and like, oh, that was weird. You know, when you're a kid, like you're going in for the little smooches on the cheeks and your kid ever snuck in a lips kiss and you're like, that's no, that'S, you're too, you'RE too big for this. You'RE not a baby.

0:26:10 Eli: No no not not my kid, do not an issue, uh, of the chism can I recommend it

0:26:21 Tom: Know, I, I

0:26:23 Thomas: That happens. Phoebe does that sometimes. Yeah.

0:26:25 Eli: Yeah yeah uh

0:26:26 Tom: Do you remember, though, the first girlfriend that I had? I went over to her house, and was her, it was two girls and a boy, and I went to her, and I went over their house, and like, the mom would snuggle with her teenage daughters. Like the daughters would occasionally, like, they'd sit on the couch, the daughters would like lay down and put like their hair, or put their head on their mom's lap, and their mom would like just casually, like, pet their hair while they would like watch TV or whatever. I remember being like, what the, what, like you are a late teen person but it was also like perfectly sweet. Like, it was actually a perfectly sweet thing, but I, I will note that I've seen that or something similar many, many, many times, but never with boys, and we withdraw physical, physical affection from boys at a way earlier age, and I think that's fucked up.

0:26:38 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. That would have freaked me out. Yeah.

0:26:53 Eli: Yeah

0:27:05 Thomas: Yeah. And so that's what I want to ask. Yeah.

0:27:13 Tom: Like, I think that's like really fucked up, but I think like one of the things that happens for boys is they grow up into young men and men in general, that like the only time that there's real physical touch is when they're having sex with someone or when they'RE in a sexualized relationship.

0:27:26 Eli: Yeah

0:27:27 Thomas: Yeah. When they're like Tom Brady's kid having sex with him. I get it. Yeah, totally.

0:27:32 Eli: Absolutely.

0:27:31 Tom: And I do, do genuinely, I DO wonder, and it's just a speculation and an out loud musing, perhaps. I don't have anything behind this, but I do wonder if like of the like pushiness around sex, some, pushiness around sex is like, this is the only acceptable way I'm getting touched, you know?

0:27:49 Thomas: Hmm.

0:27:49 Eli: It's a huge contributor to the problems with consent. Yeah, yeah.

0:27:51 Thomas: Not not only that, Tom, maybe the, this absolute dearth of physical affection means if you know, the whole thing that the these, problem that a lot of men have is, a you waitress is nice to a man and they think like, oh, you want to marry me? And so they, whatever, like maybe Some of that's true too. Like if you get any sort of affection in any way, you it as like this interest in you because you have this unhealthy lack of affection of any kind. Yeah.

0:28:05 Tom: Right. Yeah.

0:28:15 Tom: We don't have any other context for it. Yeah, you have no other contextualization for affection or physical touch except for like romantic touch and romantic affection Because like, it's not something men have one -to -one with each other typically, right? Like maybe you'll do like a quick bro hug. No, no homo, you know, like that bullshit. Maybe he'll do that sort of stuff. But even that probably not.

0:28:15 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:28:17 Eli: Well,

0:28:38 Tom: I remember, and

0:28:37 Thomas: If someone ever says that to me, I'm gonna be like, "No, I no," "I very much homo." What do you mean, "No homo"? I want, yeah,

0:28:42 Eli: Much home On, I'm in love with you now.

0:28:44 Thomas: I would one homo, please. So.

0:28:46 Tom: It's seven homo units. I will, will admit to you too, that like I had long, long periods in my life where I had no physical affection or no physical touch. And it made me fucking weird.

0:28:56 Thomas: The caress of, of a snapping turtle,

0:28:57 Tom: It, it like, it made me fucking weird, like a long time, I would not hug my friends that were girls goodbye. I would stand and awkwardly be like, bye. You know, they would Like give a hug goodbye, but I'd be like, I don't, I was unsure if that was an appropriate thing to do like into my like mid to late 20s. I was unsure if that was an inappropriate thing to like hug someone that I wasn't romantically connected to. There was no touch at all. I remember like going to get my haircut because someone would wash my hair and it was like, oh my God, I just like it feels It feels fucking amazing to be touched by someone because months

0:28:57 Eli: It Does it Does Yeah,

0:28:58 Thomas: The loving. Yeah.

0:29:10 Thomas: Yeah.

0:29:36 Eli: Well, Yeah.

0:29:37 Tom: And months and months and moments would go by where like there was no physical affection or no physical touch. So it's, it makes you fucking weird. Like I will say, like it makes me feel like a weird person.

0:29:45 Eli: Yeah.

0:29:45 Thomas: Can I say, Tom, yes, you are weird. No, I'm just kidding.

0:29:49 Eli: Well, two things. First of all, I'm glad Tom doesn't still feel that way because that he did, right? There was this 14 % chance he was going to be like, and no hugs except for your wife on your wedding night. Right,

0:29:56 Thomas: Yeah, you haven't haven't earned your affection for the yeah, of course.

0:30:02 Eli: Right, exactly. But two, yeah, you to shut that part of yourself down, right, not to validate anything about the incel movement, obviously, but something something very interesting because right of all these terrible ideas do have a grain of truth to them, and one of them is that like alone and being lonely makes you fucking crazy, right? It's really, really psychologically bad for you, right? You know, all, all those science experiments which evo psych is mostly bullshit, but like all those experiments about like the cloth monkey versus the wire monkey and all, all that kind of stuff, like there is something deep down ingrained in us about needing physical affection. Um, come from a family where men are physically affectionate to each other, like I, I snuggled my dad until he was, uh, I still snuggle with my mom. Right, um, of the most hurtful moments I can remember, um, my poor friend, probably, probably even remember this, but like I was in college, and the picture I had of me and my dad is like we're sitting on like not even a bench together, but we're sitting

0:30:10 Thomas: Yeah, he

0:30:12 Tom: No.

0:30:58 Thomas: Was getting

0:30:58 Eli: On this seating platform. Well, it's actually kind of like that because he, he has his arm around me. Um, we're on a trip together, and I was like, yeah, this is one of my favorite pictures of my dad, and he was like, "Ha, looks like you're dating." And I remember just being so fucking hurt by that, right, and putting that picture away and finding other pictures of that and sort of realizing that that was not okay among the mainstream, the way that I was brought up to be physically affectionate. I will say, um, has just started snuggling. He now wants snuggles during

0:30:58 Thomas: A massage and yeah oh I'm

0:31:31 Eli: Stories and stuff. Usually like he used to sit on my lap when he was a baby, baby, and let me read to him, but it was never snuggling, right? He was just like, this is, is the best place to see the book father, I have chosen this one, and

0:31:40 Thomas: So sorry my Eli you've missed out on so much. Oh,

0:31:45 Eli: I sure have. Um, and so he has just started now, uh, to snuggle during bedtime and during stories, and so it's, it's really he wants to give hugs too, and so that, that has been really, really excellent to start that, but yeah, I'm, I'm all about the physical affection for him. You know, kisses on the head, kisses on, on the cheeks, but not kisses on the mouth.

0:31:51 Thomas: I'm SO GLAD TO HEAR THAT.

0:32:03 Eli: Maybe that's me, you.

0:32:02 Thomas: Okay, so we'll Set that aside, I want to set that side, uh, yes. Okay, No, I, I'm, I, I don't, I, it is weird the couple times it accidentally happens when they're this old. I'm, yeah, I was just talking, talking about when their babies are like one. Um, so setting that aside, I actually am, do really want to ask this because I feel like, have I, this thought constantly, where I'm like, man, I'm going to be so crushed when I can't snuggle with my little kiddos anymore. And I, yeah.

0:32:06 Eli: And Tom Brady. I can't Think about it, I literally sometimes I think about it and I start to It is, it is one of my biggest cry triggers because I know for a fact, I was thinking this in the mall the other day, because he was like, "Hold hands," and I was like, "Yes," absolutely, buddy, I was holding his hands, and I started to think, someday, this kid's not going to want to hold my fucking hand anymore, and I'm still going to be me me who loves him the most.

0:32:28 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, I know the whole thing. Yeah, yep. Yep. Do this every day. I think this. Yep.

0:32:46 Eli: And he's going to be like, let go of my hand. And I'm going to be like sure. And the fucking Donnie Darko music is going to play.

0:32:51 Thomas: Can you call the ambulance? Yeah. Yeah. How

0:32:54 Eli: And can you

0:32:54 Thomas: Are you gonna You're gonna have to tell them. I will let go of your hand, but can you call the ambience and have them pick me up, cause I'm not, there's no way.

0:33:00 Eli: Just daddy's going to pop a couple extra antidepressants today for, and look, let's be clear. Like that separation that happens around, you teen years where They, they, do that separation from your physicality, like it's a good, natural healthy thing to do I

0:33:15 Thomas: Yeah yeah that's the hardest part about it.

0:33:18 Eli: Cannot imagine recovering from it. I worry, right, because you've got to have a healthy reaction, right? What you don't want to do is like stop in the middle of the mall and grab your kid around the legs and be like, "Please don't stop loving daddy," right? That's how you end up, you know, kissing your 11 year old on the mouth while you get a massage.

0:33:20 Thomas: Yep. Yep.

0:33:35 Thomas: Literally just just going to be like, okay. And then I'll just kneel down and I'll go into the fetal position in the mall. Like here's a hundred bucks, go buy stuff or something. I don't know.

0:33:35 Eli: Yep. That's What you got, it, you got to be like, hey, what's, is, are they giving away free three hot pretzels over there? And then they'll be like, I thought I heard you screaming while we were over at the hot pretzel. And I was like, no, um, that was another guy.

0:33:53 Thomas: Must've been the pretzels. That's how they make them. Yeah. I

0:33:55 Eli: He came and he cried all over my face. Um, and then he ran away.

0:33:55 Thomas: Don't want to know. No, it's pee. I swear. I dunno. I genuinely struggle with that, But I also wonder, so here's the other thing we've talked about this a long time ago, actually, with some of the kind of that like atheism stuff where I the line between I want my kid to get along in society. We live in a fucking society versus no, but I'm not going to have them believe in a religion just to get by. You know, like there's lines, you know, and, and with the affection, it's like my, I may be overdrawing conclusions, but hypothetically, my little Arlo guy, he just seems like a sweetie. And what if he stays like this kind of affectionate sweetie who wants to snuggle me when he's like, I don't know, fucking 10 or whatever, you know, like, is it?

0:34:01 Eli: Yeah, sure.

0:34:36 Tom: That's fine but yeah finn snuggled

0:34:38 Thomas: I hope.

0:34:38 Tom: Into yeah yeah no I mean I like was snuggly when he was 10 was Like very, very, very snuggly when he was 10, 11. I would say that around maybe like middle school is when he started to pull away from me a little bit. And, the thing is that like that, pulling away is both a physical separation as well as other separations.

0:34:58 Thomas: Mm-hmm.

0:34:58 Tom: Like it just becomes, you know, less, I don't know. They, their peers become more important than their parents. And it's, it's the right thing developmentally, but like, like I will say it fucking blows and it makes you worry. And I think like for me personally, because I was at that point in his life, I was not a full -time fixture in his day-to-day house. It made me worry tenfold more, right? Like, oh my God, like, did I ruin my relationship with Finn? You know, like I had like, I had a whole fucking thing about it. You know? I was really worried about it and I, I have noticed that as he's entered his late teen years, that he's come back around that he's sort

0:35:03 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's

0:35:34 Tom: Of He like moved out of that, and I, and I, I kind of noticed the same thing with Donovan too, that when Donovan was going through that, like, early puberty, early teen-tween space, he did kind of pull away a little bit and he had kind of his own world that he was dealing with.

And now that he's like a little older, senior, junior senior in high school, same as Finn, like, started, started to come back around because he's sort of seeing himself more as a grown-up and he's relaying to us back as grownups. And so, yeah, like that cuddling is gone. But like, I think it lays a groundwork.

Truly, I think it lays a groundwork for a kind of like relationship and affection and closeness that like when they come back around, like I can give them hugs, like, I could give, like, Donovan's not my biological son. And like, if I give that kid a hug, if like he needs a hug, he's having a bad day, I'll be like, hey man, do you need a hug?

He's like, yep, up, and like I'll wrap that kid up and he'll hug me for 10 seconds if he needs to, like, he's got no problem, like, hanging on to get that feeling. So I think, like, laying that, like, foundation of physical affection and and really, like, letting them lead when it starts to dissipate

0:35:35 Thomas: Nice. Yeah.

0:36:44 Tom: Is really helpful and I don't think it's weird to snuggle him at 10 to hug him at 10 not at all

0:36:48 Thomas: That's nice, I

0:36:49 Eli: No, I think, I'm going to be weird. And again, speak for my family. I think you should never stop snuggling your kids, right?

0:36:58 Thomas: Agree. Agree.

0:36:59 Eli: I think, think, like, physical affection, right, isn't Tom Brady is, um, right

0:37:04 Thomas: So I shouldn't post it on Instagram.

0:37:05 Eli: Yeah, no, no, don't, um, I think it's cool that you and Arlo kissed over the Hogwarts castle, like that's a great way to crack The champagne bottle uh but yeah, I think there should never be a point at which physical affection ceases or diminishes, um personal comfort, right? Obviously your kids will ebb and flow as to how much affection they want and you should respect that and respect their bodily autonomy, which is a whole other aspect that I'm dealing with right, because like you gotta, you know, let your kids say no to hugs, right? Like, I just, for the record, for the record, I would like to keep a journal of all the times my son has said no to a hug so that when he's an adult who understands what that means, when he has a kid, right, want to be like, hey, you love him, don't you? Yeah, so wonderful, such a magical feeling, on September 1st

0:37:13 Thomas: It's a great picture. Sure I shouldn't post it, no okay, man yep

0:37:54 Eli: 2021, you were being especially cute while playing with your Legos and I said, can Dirty have a hug? You said, no, do you have anything you want to say to dad right now? Anything you don't want to tell me, anything?

0:38:04 Thomas: It's so hard it's so hard. And know, this might be a little kid thing still, but I've also, along those lines, I have a firm rule that I tell the kids, like, you can have a hug anytime, and I mean like anytime, if you're in the trouble, even, like, that's what. And Phoebe, I think Arlo, you know, he can't quite keep that all on his head, so I don't think he gets it yet, but Phoebe utilized this, this hug one time.

Like, she was having one of those really emotional days, that's, God, it's really hard to deal with, and she was getting in trouble a little bit for other behaviors, and she, a time where we just doing the kind of like, we, we need some space for a minute, 'cause truly there's no other way. Like, she's so relentless sometimes, it's like, hey, can we please have some space? You know? And so she went to, she pulled her free hug card.

She's like, like, but not even the hug, can I have a hug? And I was like, yes, you absolutely can have a hug. Even though I was, like, you need it, we need space, like, she was, you know, she was being pretty tough. It

0:38:09 Eli: Right

0:39:02 Thomas: Was a tough, tough evening. And I said, absolutely, you can always have a tug anytime. Because knows if it'll have this effect, Tom, but I still think about your story about your brother, where it was, like, don't call me if you're fucking in jail. Like I'm almost, like... No, I want the very opposite of that, like, literally no matter how much trouble you think you're in with me or anything like that, you can always have a hug at any time, anytime. And don't know if this will work, but I just want to build in that, that of, like, I, I don't want them to be too scared to tell me something, or to, like, I always want them to feel like love and affection I have for you is permanent, any other trouble we're having is temporary, you know?

0:39:02 Tom: Yeah yeah yeah

0:39:39 Eli: Unconditional, no.

0:39:40 Thomas: Yeah

0:39:41 Tom: I moved in with my dad, one of the very first things, I did not want to move in with my dad, like moving in with my dad was like kind of a traumatic event, right? Like, I, I think I told the story before, but like I came home from school and I was expecting to continue living with my mom, and my mom was like, she had two suitcases by the door, and she's, he's like, we're going to the airport, you're going live with your dad today. And that was the notice that I got. And it was, so it was not like a good, it was ultimately a wonderful thing that probably saved my life, like, like without exaggeration, yeah, yeah.

0:39:47 Thomas: Yeah man, we know we believe you yeah the

0:40:11 Eli: No one disagrees with you, Tom, not a single person on this podcast, not anyone who's listened to it, good

0:40:16 Thomas: Snapping turtle is on list it has the earbuds in right now, snapping turtle's like, yeah that's fair, to be honest that's true, I'm

0:40:18 Tom: But, but yeah I was

0:40:22 Eli: For him good for him I was absolutely gonna get you that second time, just for the record, nice of him to be a patron, though, by the way, big shout out to snapping turtle one on Patreon

0:40:23 Thomas: I might have killed him, yeah yeah yeah snappy seven

0:40:22 Tom: Going to eat that fucking guy, but is, you You wouldn't think you wouldn't think. But when I moved in with my dad, we were very upset. We were crying. We're distraught. Like we just left our mom, you know, like we didn't know what the fuck was going on. We flew on an airplane by ourselves. We're six. It's like a whole thing, you know. And like one of the very first things my dad said and he meant it. And like I took him up on it many, many, many, many times is like if you ever want to hug, I will always give you a hug. Yeah.

0:40:33 Eli: Right

0:40:33 Thomas: Yeah oh yeah oh really I wouldn't have thought that, yeah, man

0:40:56 Tom: Yeah. My dad was not like world, world's biggest initiator of hugs, I don't say he never did, but he's like, uh, like my dad will give me a hug when I'm leaving, like if I go for a visit I'll give him a hug goodbye, but like he was, he, I don't think he would just like initiate a hug, like come over here buddy, let me just give you a hug, but like my dad made it very clear from the minute we landed and got off that airplane that if we ever wanted a hug, we got a hug, and like there were many times I needed that hug, what

0:41:21 Eli: Right

0:41:24 Thomas: Of the tragedies, you know, there is a little tragedy of my dad obviously, but I will say one of the more sympathetic things in that story is I do have this feeling of, like, you know, when I, I kind of figured my stuff out a little more and was actually totally okay with physical affection, and had, I had to go through that like awkward period in college where it was like, I was probably hugging too much, you know, I like learn a, like, oh, you also have to make sure that, you know, other people want to hug.

I, when had I had that figured out and I was more affectionate, I still didn't know, like, like what my dad wanted, you know, in the time, a few years that I was still talking to him there, you know, and I just have this, I actually have this kind of memory seared into my mind of one of the times when I was leaving, you from a visit, and like, I just remember, you know, you can read that body language of like, I think he doesn't know if it's okay to try to hug me or not, you

0:42:14 Thomas: Know, and I just, it's just kind of like tragic feeling, you know, I'll never kind of forget it, but he, we we did hug toward the end there a little little bit, like, it was, you know, it's just one of those things where I could very much feel that he was completely uncertain and just was kind of letting me dictate that, but not in a way that feels, you know, because obviously you should, you your kid kind of dictate that. But not in a way that was at all inviting. It was more of a like, you know, I could almost seem kind of like, oh, do I just, this awkward kind of of like, you know, it just, it's tragic. I don't think he had any example of that at all in his life as a kid, so it's, you know, kind of sucks. Hmm.

0:42:14 Eli: Yeah I Think so much of the time that you're, I'm glad you pointed that out, because I do think so much of time it rare that someone didn't actually want that affection. Right. They just didn't know how to ask for it. Right. And so, you know, one of the things that's so important about setting this example with our kids is that they will have the tools to ask for it, they will have the tools of bodily autonomy to say yes or no. And we'll also draw that firm line so that we never kiss them on the mouth like Tom Brady. Is the That's the most important part. That's the lesson to take away.

0:43:18 Thomas: That's

0:43:32 Eli: Of crying, what happens if you don't pay your exorcism bill? You get repossessed let

0:43:37 Tom: Oh. No. No.

0:43:41 Thomas: A good one. You

0:43:45 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

0:44:24 Eli: Hey, hey, why don't actually, why don't instead of you doing that, hey in, hey fucker, instead of doing that, how about instead you Google Tom Brady kissing son and see what we saw, and