DOD73: You're Not Allowed To Hit Your Kids Here

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's not being invited back. I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:32 Thomas: Ha ha!

0:00:37 Eli: Hello! So many reasons that I would not be invited back to any particular place. You could use that as a universal intro, Thomas. If Tom's ever sick and you need to intro the show, just go ahead and clip that one.

0:00:44 Thomas: Ha ha. Yeah. Ha ha ha. Yeah, Eli, why'd you just DM me on the site? Is this something I did? What am I, what is he talking about? Ha ha, ha ha, ha ha ha!

0:00:56 Tom: Okay.

0:00:56 Eli: To be fair, I set up Zapier to just send you that every day at noon, so...

0:01:02 Thomas: Oh, no. This was a, this was a doozy. This was one of those immediately messaging the dads, you know, like what the fuck is happening?! So here's what happened to me, and um, went to 1800 000 birthday parties last weekend, because as I joked on Facebook, if you're a math nerd, the birthday paradox is every single day you're going to a kid's birthday party, because you have kids. That's the birthday paradox, uh, and it's probability thing, it's a counterintuitive, every fucking day is someone's birthday, and then you go to a birthday party and it's 111 degrees too. So, so that's also fun. Anyway, this was one of those dads, parents of kids that really went all out. Had two, not one, but two, like water, you know, it is not a bounce house. It was like a bounce and water house, you know, like it was a combination bounce house plus water flowing through it. It was, it was amazing.

0:01:54 Eli: Nice. We love it. We love it...

0:01:55 Thomas: Yeah. And so, and also catered catered food, including, um, tacos with a whole taco bar from a, like a food truck catering.

0:02:02 Tom: This is way better than the party. I was at a kid's party the same day you messaged us and they had fucking Domino's pizza, they didn't have a goddamn taco truck or whatever, fuck, my kids got to get higher class friends, that's what I've just learned, higher class friend.

0:02:07 Thomas: Yeah. With a with a meatless auction. Uh, it was great. It I, was fantastic. And like a full, like food of everything. And so it was great. It was, however, a literal 110. So that made it, even though, cause I'm not going to go splash in the water with the fucking kids, with the toddlers. So I was just sitting there dying. But anyway, it was Great. It Was, It Was Really Cool. And I got to talking to a man, he seems like cool enough. You know, we're, we'RE talking about, uh, I try not, I find a way to not talk about what I do for a living, which always sucks. I just, I hate fucking having to tell anybody because a, Hey, yeah, I'm a podcaster. Your first thing is they probably think, oh, this, uh, this wife, guy's wife makes the money in this guy. It is a loser podcast

0:02:17 Eli: What, what?

0:02:55 Eli: Yep, that's

0:02:56 Thomas: In his basement. And I just try to eat that. You know, I just take it now. I'm just like, yeah, that probably is what they think. Um, or the next step of hell of the conversation is, well, what's the podcast? Well, you know, how did you get started? Well it had to do with fucking Trump and you know politics really got, and then I have to risk that, you know, and I have, this guy did literally mention Joe Rogan, but he, but it did in a context that it made it like, oh, I'm still not sure. You know, like I'm still gauging. Is he just a normie who because everyone every dude.

0:02:56 Eli: The big one. Mm -hmm. Yep.

0:03:19 Eli: Knows Joe Rogan is a podcaster. That's just what they say, yeah.

0:03:28 Tom: Right. Right.

0:03:27 Thomas: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's like there's plenty of non -problematic dudes who just don't know and they're just like, oh, yeah, I've listened to Joe Rogan a few times, you know, he talked about some scientist or some bullshit, that so anyway, there's that hell, but I just was like, yeah, yeah.

I try to be non -specific about it, but I'm like, yeah, you know, really took off during 2016 when that happened, and he seems mostly cool, he seems to be like gauging that, you know, not to get either, that's the thing, either moderating himself by gauging that I'm liberal because I signal it right away, so that somebody doesn't start being racist toward me or talk about Trump or something because I don't want that to happen, um, maybe lot of times like guys in sales, I think I mentioned this before, he sounded like he was a sales guy, they'll just do that, anyway, you know, they don't, they don't want to ruffle any feathers, you know, so they'll kind of be like, oh, oh yeah, I'm kind of on the middle, you know, that kind of thing they'll say. And so, but he did mention like Joe Rogan because he was talking about doing mushrooms or what, he was like, oh, I'm on a little bit of psilocybin all the time.

0:04:00 Eli: Right.

0:04:24 Thomas: And I was, yeah, yeah he did. He did. And it'll, it'll become important later. So that's happening. I'm having this conversation, getting on fine, you know? And then at a certain point, his kid, he starts yelling at his kid because his kid, I think he has two kids, think one of them is in Arlo's class. I believe this was a party, birthday party for Arlo, his friend who was in his daycare class. One of this guy's kids, he's not the kid dad of the birthday kid. This is just another dad.

One of the kids is in our list class. The other one, I think, is younger. I'm not a hundred percent sure, cause I didn't catch it, but I think that's the situation. And his kid is either being me mean to his sibling or to another kid, I didn't, I'm not sure.

And he starts yelling at his kid and I was like, oh man, okay, well, I've kind of been there, you know, like I've a hard time with these kids lately because, you know, they hit each other and you're tired of that, you're like, ah, yeah, I've been, I've essentially thinking in my mind like, yeah, man, here it comes, like, how do you, how do you stop your kid when they're hitting your sibling or whatever, and so I'm like, all right,

0:04:24 Eli: For him. Right.

0:04:25 Tom: The Dad said this, he's just constantly microdosing. Thomas, was like getting ready to take notes,

0:05:23 Thomas: Yeah, yeah,

0:05:23 Tom: He's taking out like a little like like detective pad and a pen, like, oh, let's see, like a fucking dad gumshoe, so all right, I mean, I'm sure he had a very well uh, thought out method here

0:05:24 Eli: You

0:05:28 Thomas: I well I'm thinking like oh, that's, I've been there, you know, and so that happens like maybe two times, and on the third time he just goes over, yanks his kid out of the water, like, the you know, the thing had like a foot of water in it or whatever, you know, the like play thing, picks up his kid, drags him over near us, I'm like, what is, okay, well, I mean, I've, yeah, I'm not like, gosh, I guess I've had to pick up my kid when they're being really bad, after like, you know, if they're having a screaming fit or something, I've entertained, picks up up his kid, takes him over and just fucking smacks him in the butt really hard, like really hard, just, and it was just like, what, what is that, uh, what's happening, he just hits his kid and he's like yelling, like, tell him, like, you, you know, you can't do that or whatever, you know, he's just really upset with the kid, obviously, you of bullying another kid or his brother, one or the other, just acting out, and he just hit him like a couple, two, three, three times.

I'm just like, oh, now my mind is just gone. Like fucking static fuzz of a TV. I don't know what to do. Like, I can't fathom that. Like I can't even, I can't even think about ever hitting my kid. Like a kid, not even, I get emotional even talking about it. That's how, like, I don't understand how people could do that. I really, really don't.

And I, and I, and I wanted to emphasize all through how much I'm like, I'm totally identifying with like, like, fuck, it's hard. You know, your kid's doing something wrong. You got to kind of, you know, sometimes you got to yell at them a little bit.

Cause they're not, you know, they're, I'm the whole way, I'm like, man, yeah, I, I'm not saying this, but I'm in my mind thinking it like, yeah, I've been there, you Now, like any, any moment, you, it could be Phoebe is hitting Arlo. And then I get like, come on, stop doing that. You know, like try to find a way.

0:05:33 Tom: Yeah,

0:07:14 Eli: Over to him, huh, oh, look, mine's doing it too, huh. We should hang out it's

0:07:16 Tom: Yeah,

0:07:17 Thomas: And the up and, and I'm, I emphasize that to say, I am identifying with that struggle, that like how frustrated you get with your kids, how angry, how sad, how everything you can be with your kids, and then he hits the kid, and I'm like, fuck you, there's not like, there's no part of me that's like, oh, well, I get that, you know, you got, sometimes you got to just, you know, physically abuse your kid because that's the only way they'll know what the fuck, I forget, you know, I think we've cited the fact on this show, or maybe it was SIO, that like an alarmingly high percentage of people are cool with spanking their kids or hitting their kids in some way, it's, yeah,

0:07:55 Eli: The, it's the only strong stance aside from circumcision that we have on Dear Old Dads is that you can't hit your kids, it's the only fact based claim we'll make, yeah.

0:07:55 Tom: A crazy high number

0:08:01 Thomas: And it's, but like, yeah, And I think it could be a majority, actually, I think it might be over 50% of people still think that's okay in this country, I'm pretty sure.

0:08:11 Eli: It depends on how you ask the question, but, but it's like, should parents be allowed to do corporal punishment at home? Usually you can get more than half the country to be like, well, you know, if you're on your land and.

0:08:12 Thomas: Yeah, sure, uh, okay, yeah, yeah, I don't want the government coming over and holding my hand away from my kid's ass, you can't do that, yeah, um, so yeah, that's maybe, that's the optimistic take, I haven't dug into it too much, maybe that is the optimistic take, maybe if you worded a certain way to be lower, and I will say, yes, I am in liberal California or whatever, and I, this is the first time I've ever witnessed anything like this, so yeah, maybe it is, hopefully a smaller number, just to be optimistic, um, than I would think, go

0:08:26 Tom: You can have a spanking tax, next in this country you gotta pay a little extra for every goddamn everything.

0:08:54 Eli: Well, there's a lot of people who are sort of walking this weird line of physically punishing their kids, right? Right. Like there's not a lot of people doing the like, go out and get the torture device that we'll use on this day. But like, Hey man, if you can't control your emotions and your body, when you're frustrated with your kids, you hit your kids. Right. And a lot people are like, no, you just got to sometimes in an emergent, right. They start like narrating an action movie.

0:09:01 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

0:09:13 Tom: Yep

0:09:22 Eli: Well, well, what if the house was on for rakes?

0:09:21 Thomas: Well, there's a bank heist yeah, and the only

0:09:25 Eli: My kid has a gun. He's robbing a bank. And he's killed all his fellow burglars so far, but then he backs a bus over the last one.

0:09:25 Thomas: The fire

0:09:30 Tom: And I've got one chance to sneak up behind him and spank him right on the ass and fix the what yeah, I

0:09:43 Eli: Is.

0:09:41 Thomas: He also has a fetish, so it will distract him, no. Yes.

0:09:48 Tom: Astonishing. Astonishing how, like, the response to emotionally deregulated kids is to be like, well, I'm going to teach them better emotional regulation by myself becoming emotionally dereglated like that.

0:09:56 Thomas: Yes, Yes. And that's, and here's the thing. That's the amazing thing. It doesn't even fucking work, dude. It does. It, I saw his kid. I saw what his kid did. His kid was seething. So his kid now is so fucking pissed off. His kids are like, I don't know. I don't know. God, I felt so bad.

0:10:14 Tom: Well, sure. He got hit and he got shamed and he Got publicly embarrassed. Right. So, like like it's not even like two things happen and they're both important. I mean, interrupt you, but like both Things are important. The hitting of the kid is absolutely important, right? That is an important thing that should not be done. But also this was done in front of everybody, right? So this kid was, because even if all that dad did was drag the kid out of the water and publicly shame that kid, that would be an ineffective and emotionally shitty thing to do to somebody, right? But he did both, like he managed to fuck this up in two equally important directions and they're like, like, so this kit, what do you expect from

0:10:16 Thomas: Yes. Yes, in front of everybody. No, no.

0:10:39 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah,

0:10:55 Tom: Him, like, is he really gonna be like, well, you know, actually, I really should reconsider consider, uh, my own childlike ability to manage my emotions in the mind. Like, he's not gonna do that, literally nothing is going, yeah right

0:10:55 Thomas: Yeah. Should I grow an entire part of my brain? I don't have yet. Well, father, I suppose I shall.

0:11:08 Tom: Uh you know what I'm gonna do? I'm going to have a stern talk with my limbic system, limbic sistem, how dare you, it's ridiculous it's a fucking absurdity, like there was no hope and all that, was all the all the reasoning behind there is the dad got mad and he lost control of himself that's it, because when your kids are being shitheads, they're being shithheads because they're in an emotional place that, like, we need to recognize and be emotionally non-responsive to, but like so many parents give themselves, um, of like an out to be like, well, when you treat me with disrespect, it makes me angry. It's like, no, man, like, you don't get to be be angry, like

0:11:13 Eli: Yep.

0:11:16 Thomas: Yeah, it is.

0:11:27 Thomas: Yep. 100%. Yeah.

0:11:50 Thomas: Think you can.

0:11:51 Tom: You don't get to visibly and like outwardly be angry. That's like, now you, you got to go fucking take a walk and calm your shit down before you interact with your kids. If you can't, if you kan't be emotionally regulated yourself, you can teach them emotional regulation.

0:11:51 Thomas: Yeah.

0:12:07 Thomas: Yeah, I think that I would make more allowances than that. I Think I think That you can be angry around your kid when when appropriate, but you do have to be very careful with that. I think you have to, one thing I think You Can Do is you can literally be communicative. And I think this might've been from the same book I mentioned last episode in the, by the way, make sure you listen to the after hours bonus story, because it was a parenting tip from a book I read that really, really helped me. So that's, you know, patrons.

0:12:08 Eli: Yeah.

0:12:35 Eli: Thomas lied about how often he picks up his kids on time and then we caught him in it. And so listen to it for that.

0:12:39 Thomas: Yeah, patrons, in addition in addition to not hearing auto ads that are, we'll say those aren't quite as bad as hitting your kid. We'll say, those are a little bit better than hitting your kid and list. In addition to not hearing those patreon.com/ Dear Old Dads, you can hear that bonus story. And I think from this same book, it emphasized like, look, sometimes your kid, cause God damn, sometimes they're shitheads. I mean, the other day we gave, we gave our kids a magical, unbelievable day of fun. Saw a movie, got them like a comic book, bought them a like fucking icy, just all this this shit. And then they're kids. So they're still like the minute something they don't like happens.

They're like, I hate this and you don't get me anything. And we're just like, dude, come on, man. Like, no, you know? And I think it, one thing that I found I think is okay and is acceptable is to show like when they've made us sad and we'll say, wow, that, you know, we worked really hard to try to give you a good day. And that's, that made us really sad, you knows, that you didn't appreciate it in that moment. And I I think that's appropriate. I think showing some amount of that emotion is okay. In my, in my book, I don't know. I could be wrong,

0:12:48 Eli: Yeah.

0:13:43 Tom: Yeah.

0:13:43 Thomas: But I, I think, I think I think that's useful.

0:13:43 Tom: But But I want to separate that. Because I think that that's, I think it's important, I want, want to separate that. I think a lot of parental anger comes from feeling like the kids should feel differently than those kids are capable of feeling. And so parents get angry because their kids are, in your example, like the are feeling a sense of like, and expressing a sense of ingratitude. Right.

0:13:45 Thomas: Yeah. Hmm. Yeah.

0:14:04 Tom: And we feel like they should be feeling differently, but like that's ours too. But yeah, but they, no, no. We can't know that I disagree with you completely. They should not. Should and feelings are two things that you need to be able to divorce, right? We have feelings and we don't get to control those feelings. We get to control how we respond to those feelings Kids don't have that ability yet. They have not learned That's a lifelong process of learning

0:14:08 Thomas: Well, they should be. Yeah. Yeah.

0:14:29 Thomas: And would argue though that they shouldn't, and it's fine to say they shouldn'T. And this is part of that process. Part of that processes Giving them the feedback of, well, when you allow yourself to react in this incredibly ungrateful way, when you've gotten nothing but a bounty of fucking gifts in a day, that's not a good thing. I think this, I think that's part of this process is showing them that feedback is all I'm saying, yeah.

0:14:35 Tom: Yeah, right, but I again, I'm just trying to draw a hard distinction that there's a distinction between saying like, like, hey, when you express these things to me, like, hurts my feelings, then telling somebody how they should or shouldn't feel. We should not try it. You can't police a kid's feelings and tell them they should feel differently.

You can tell them to behave differently around their feelings or teach them skills to help them behave differently around their feelings, but you can't ask someone to feel something that they don't feel or ask them not to feel they do feel because they've already felt it. They have already felt that we don't get to control our emotions. We get to control how we respond to our emotions, and like that's a lifelong process that kids literally cannot do at young ages.

So when parents get, and expressing sadness is not the same as anger. Anger is a different thing that should not be expressed toward kids. Like, I don't, I really strongly believe that like your kids should not see you being angry with them. That means you've lost control. Anger toward kids is like, that's just a never, like, go take a walk.

0:15:55 Thomas: I think we're largely saying the same thing, except I think that part of the feeling differently thing, I think there are feelings that we would recognize you shouldn't be feeling, and I think part of that process is, I'm not saying stop the thought crime of feeling those feelings per se, it's, hey, get some perspective on this.

Like, what, what we, what I want to engage in my kids' brains and what I want them to develop over time is, okay, when this happens, instead of thinking, well, I didn't get thing number 87 that I wanted, think, okay, can you please focus on the 86 things you did get, you know, which is kind of in line with something you just said about the labor thing in the last episode. I, that's what I mean, like, they shouldn't be feeling that feeling, honestly, because it's stupid.

It's, it's their inability to put perspective on what they're feeling. And I'm just saying, I think it's OK to be like, hey, here's what you really should be considering. And should mean that you're not feeling this horrible sense of injustice at not getting the 87 thing when you got the first 86 thing. That's all I mean. I have to imagine we're kind of saying the same thing in different ways, but I'm not sure.

0:17:00 Thomas: I don't know.

0:17:00 Tom: Yeah, I think so. I think that like I just come at it like from a little bit more of like a, like a cognitive behavioral therapy kind of angle, that like we should be nonjudgmental and hold space for feelings that are shitty and unfair and unkind, but we should not hold space for actions and expressions of those feelings that are shitty and unfair and unkind. And I think it takes a lot of work, even for adults, I'll raise my hand, there are times I have feelings that I'll recognize, like, that's a shit feeling, and I have to do the work of reframing my thoughts in order for me to sort of let that feeling pass, in a way that's like, all right, I, I just gotta wait that feeling out, there's a mindfulness technique to feelings that is important for people to learn. Like, that's a lot, that's a lot different, I think, than telling someone that they're feeling a bad feeling or they shouldn't feel a certain way. Is to me.

0:17:54 Thomas: Yeah, I think so. I think agree. And I think we do that with other things. I think if you saw these examples, they're cartoonishly stupid and silly. I think when it reaches that level, it's sort of like, all right, man, like Phoebe will do, you they'll do a routine that's kind of like this is obviously absurd. Like, I don't even know if she believes it kind of thing. And I think that's maybe what I'm thinking of more where it's like, I don't know if this is a real thing. But but on the anger thing, that's where I I got to, I don't know. I think that, yes, the goal is always to not get angry, of course. But I, you know, like it's these kids will make you angry. And I thinkthat making sure you don't don't express that toward them or do your best to not show that or whatever.

But I also think that in in a pinch, if especially let's say you're a single parent or something and you don' have the option of just leaving your kid. I think in a pinch you can. One thing that I believe in and I kind of also read in this book is that I do think you can communicate with your kids on an adult human level more than you think. I think you can say like, I need a minute, like I need I need space.

0:18:04 Tom: Right. Sure. Yeah.

0:19:12 Thomas: You know, I, and you've taken a second and you have collected yourself and now you have either made amends if you happen to yell or do anything wrong or you have figured out the problem and have gotten better, I think displaying that process is helpful.

0:19:30 Eli: I think it's about the behavior you're modeling, right? Right, I wouldn't, and I don't think Thomas saying this, like, don't feel anger, I think it's about, like, your kids watch you feel anger and then yell about it, is that the behavior your modeling, or do they do the example you just gave, Thomas, which is like, oh yeah, when I feel angry, like take some time to yourself or take a deep breath or do that stuff. I actually think it is really important our kids see us deal with emotions in healthy ways.

0:19:57 Tom: Yeah.

0:19:57 Eli: But I think, and Tom, feel free to correct me, but I think what Tom was talking about is this. There's a lot of parents who put on a show of unhealthy emotion for their kids and then like come back into parenting, right? Like, oh, I am just, oh. You know what? I am so sorry. I am, I'm just so mad right now.

0:19:55 Thomas: Yeah, right

0:20:16 Eli: You go on, Right. I don't know. I don't know if you've actually seen this. I have seen it quite a bit. This whole, like, I am, I'm holding on by a thread act

0:20:14 Thomas: Like they are the Hulk or something oh yeah, I know what you mean for sure Sure. No, that sucks.

0:20:25 Tom: Yeah,

0:20:26 Eli: Yeah right and then they and then they send it to their kids like, well, you see all that emotions you just made me feel, and I'm like, well, maybe you should go fucking talk to a therapist and put that on your fucking six -year-old because they waved a wobble worm Too loud or whatever the fuck they did.

0:20:37 Thomas: Yeah, that's fair. Yeah. A hundred percent. I, yeah, it's just,

0:20:43 Eli: Right

0:20:44 Tom: I think that that is that's very similar. Like I think I think like it's so it's absolutely you're going to get angry. Like kids are frustrating like they they are. And they behave in ways that if any other person behaved that way, it would be like wildly disrespectful. And so like, that can be really tough. I agree with that completely, but I do think that like, it's totally fine to be like, you know what? Dad needs a minute. Why don't we just, why don't we just come back to this in five minutes? Like there are very, very few things that cannot wait a little while that if you're, if you'RE that angry, Like if you're angry, there's like kind of nothing unless someone's running into the street that can't wait for your anger to pass for you to address.

0:21:26 Eli: And we're we're of course, putting emergency situations aside it's funny as you guys were talking about, I was thinking about my own dad who really dealt with pretty bad anger issues, right? But never at us. So one of the things that I watched him do is like, I was aware my dad was an angry person. I was aware that his danger was like, that his anger was real and dangerous, but it was never real and dangerous for us, right. Cause he would just go for a walk or go lift a bunch of heavy weights to Melissa Etheridge.

And like, it's funny. I, I am to a certain extent, also an an angry person. I I definitely have some unhealthy anger issues that I've worked on over the years, but I I truly think it was watching my dad model like being better than what he was raised, that allows me to in many ways be even better than him, right? Like, I I really see the benefits that my dad passed on to me and that I hopefully pass on to Max, because Max never gets angry. He doesn't give I'm giving a shit about anything.

0:21:30 Tom: Yeah, that's. Yeah.

0:22:28 Tom: Yeah, and I think like one of the worries that I have is that, and specifically for dads, is that I think a lot of people, and very specifically men, feel very entitled to their anger. And they they feel like that's a reasonable, that being angry means that it, that something has to be addressed and addressed now. And it almost certainly doesn't. Almost everything when you're angry can wait, and almost everything if you wait will be handled better if you address it later. But like, we have like anger kind of like fools us into thinking that there's an urgency in the a situation that very often has no real significant urgency. And that's something that we all, I think it's specifically as men, like we need to be very careful of our relationship with anger and and very, very much keep it at a distance yeah

0:22:41 Thomas: Yeah,

0:23:16 Eli: And anger works, right? That is another thing that we don't talk about enough is that like, look, so often the angriest person in a situation gets their way because everyone else is like, this person's a fucking psychopath and I would like to not be bitten on the neck here at this fucking ice cream stand. So you know what, sir? You were first in line. Go on ahead.

0:23:29 Tom: Yeah yeah Yeah.

0:23:40 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah yeah.

0:23:41 Eli: And so it is really about learning to control that stuff. But But to the subject of hitting kids, so you watch this guy hit his kid, your brain fills with static, you

0:23:49 Thomas: And, will say that he kind of did it. I'm not sure how many people saw this, you know, and it was, he kind, it was weird. It was right. Kind of in the middle of things, but not, you wonder how many were like, I'm just going to pretend this this didn't happen. You know, like I, I didn't, I did not know how to react. I didn'T know what to do. I was like, I can't, how, how could you possibly do that to your kid? I don't understand. I didnT know what to do, and I was, like, how do I get, can I leave? I, unfortunately, I have just spent the length of this party talking to one exact person, and it's this guy.

0:24:23 Eli: Should have started a conversation with him. Dude, you will not believe what I just saw. This guy just starts fucking wailing on his kid.

0:24:24 Thomas: Oh man. Yeah.

0:24:32 Eli: Oh my, I'm so glad you're here and you're on a little bit of mushrooms because fuck, man, that would have freaked me out so bad.

0:24:34 Thomas: Yeah, well, and then that's, oh my God, and fuck,

0:24:39 Tom: Do you hit your wife too, or just your kids? Is it just, like, do you hit your co -workers, or is it just you just beat up kids? Are you just exclusively hit children?

0:24:41 Thomas: Yeah, hit your wife with that mouth. Yeah we, we, I know, but we're in that, that, I did not know how to handle, I'll be honest, I didn't know how to the handle that. First off, I'm glad, I checked immediately if my, either of my kids saw it and they didn't Phoebe or Arlo was like inside. Cause he didn't want to wear his swimsuit, a whole other thing. Uh, Phoebe would happen to be in the other play thing.

So I mean, like if they would have seen it, that I would have had to, I think I literally would have taken them away and just had to talk with them. Cause like, I can't, I'm, that is a thing I didn't even think of. I look, I never dream. I know that no one's is going to hit my kids or, you know, they'll be dead. But like, yeah, we will see it on the news. But what I didn't think about is, oh shit. Now I have this whole new horror.

I haven't considered what if we didn't know this and we had just set Arlo up for a play date at this person's house. And what if they witnessed like their friend just getting fucking beaten? What, what is that going to do to them? I didn'T even think about that. And what did the, how are they going to to process that, I almost want, like, then I was wondering, do wonder if I should talk to them, like I wonder, if I could actively say, like you know, some, like some parents hit their kid, you know I, don't, because I want them to be prepared,

0:25:22 Eli: Or we'll see it on the news, baby. Baby.

0:25:56 Eli: Do it when they're being bitches

0:25:58 Thomas: Oh

0:25:58 Eli: Though. Do it when there being bad. Just not, I'm not saying you threat. I'm just saying you're like, Hey kids, uh, you know, I, I haven't mentioned this lately, but some parents, um, they, they hit their kids. So maybe you, uh maybe you just play with the frozen tassel when, uh when you're at the fucking ladybugs.

0:25:59 Tom: Yeah.

0:26:02 Thomas: Man, yeah, yeah exactly,

0:26:13 Tom: And you know what else? Santa doesn't go to the houses of kids who've been hit, so, you know, it's kind of a double whammy. Just,

0:26:18 Eli: Yeah. Certain, certain

0:26:18 Thomas: Yeah. And Then I That then I thought, oh, well, he's never going to this house. And I was like, boy, that sucks too. So that's a whole nother can of worms, because I think he likes this friend. I'm pretty sure, I, I, I can't remember, it's the kid who was hit, or that person's brother, one or the other. You way I'm sure you know, if he hits that one, he'll hit the other one too and have them go over. But what am I going to say if that comes up? Am I going to be like, oh, well, that guy's a fucking evil psychopath, so you can't go to their fucking house. You know, there's a it just in an instant opened up 700 issues I was not prepared for. I just did not even think about.

0:26:20 Eli: Jews.

0:26:42 Tom: Yeah.

0:26:53 Tom: Can help with the last one a little bit. So with the last one, we had Aislinn had a friend, she went over to her house once, and then we learned a whole bunch of really fucking disturbing shit about what was kind of going on in that house. And it's just, it's a nightmare for the poor little girl that has to live there. It's just a total mess.

0:27:10 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:27:14 Tom: So you we learned all this stuff and we're like all right well Well, you can't go to her house, but she can come to ours. And so every time they went to set up like a play date or whatever, we were always just like, yeah, absolutely. That sounds great. We'll pick her up. We'll put your daughter up at three o'clock and bring her back at seven and make sure to feed her a nice dinner. Does she like pizza? And you just you go out of your way to be.

0:27:33 Thomas: Yeah. And that's the good thing about those deadbeats is they're like, fine. Yeah, sure. You can parent my kid.

0:27:35 Tom: Yeah.

0:27:37 Eli: Yeah. They love It, don't like their kids that you can tell because they hit them all

0:27:38 Tom: Right.

0:27:40 Thomas: Yeah, exactly. Hundred percent. This would have worked for my parents.

0:27:42 Tom: Yeah. Yeah. They can still have some kind of a friendship or relationship with each other. But you're just going to have to make sure that like that relationship is mediated through you all the time and that all of the activity is at your house. And if somebody ever asked about it, like if if Arlo or Phoebe ever ask about it is be like, you know what? We just we run our house a little different. We just feel like everybody would be happier playing here. Only really need to know at that age.

0:27:48 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:28:08 Eli: Tom and I want to put this as gently as possible. Do you worry about your kid, like, catching grossness? Because That would be my worry, is like, if a kid, if a child has a bad situation at home, they're gonna grow up bad. And so it's better to just, you know, cut it at the root, you know what I'm saying. Cut it. At the root. All right. Never mind. Mm-

0:28:17 Tom: Well, actually, actually. Actually, yes. The situation got volatile enough. No, no, for real. The situation got volatil enough that we were like, you know what? Actually, we're going to put a stop to this friendship because the home situation had gotten volatile enough, and the behavior that this little girl was exhibiting began to be responsive to that volatility.

0:28:37 Thomas: Wow. Uh, Yeah, yeah.

0:28:47 Tom: And so and she was still she's a sweet, well mannered little girl in a terrible situation. But unfortunately, my my obligation is to my family first.

0:28:47 Eli: -hmm.

0:28:52 Thomas: For sure, Eli.

0:28:57 Eli: Only so much room on the helicopter.

0:28:58 Tom: And yeah, for real. I mean, no, it's shit. I know that it's shit. Um, and Haley and I talked about it, but, but I, at the end of the day, it wasn't a hard choice because it was like, yeah, this, this kid, there's some things going on and like, I can't intervene. Like I don't have the power or authority to, to do anything meaningful. We called CPS and that was the most we could do. So, but yeah, I think at some point, like you, you can say, look, this relationship is over. This friendship is over strikes me though that, you do you guys ask and we did not do this. Curious if you have a stance on it. Do you ask if people have guns in the house? Because if you do

0:29:03 Thomas: Means a literal helicopter. Yes. Though is the thing, he wasn't even doing a saying yeah. Wow.

0:29:19 Thomas: Oh,

0:29:26 Eli: Yep. Uh,

0:29:35 Thomas: Shit.

0:29:35 Tom: Asking about their stance on corporal punishment before you have a play date, be like, hey, yeah, we'd love to have Arlo hang out with Joey there We just want to double check a couple of quick things.

0:29:45 Tom: Do guys have like firearms in the house and you guys do corporal punishment because we just want to make sure we're kind of on the same page.

0:29:44 Thomas: I didn't even think of that. That's it, that's interesting.

0:29:52 Eli: That has not been necessary, um, for us yet, because when I say my wife befriends the crunchiest of hippies, I think if I said the word gun, most of the the child friends that my Anna has made us would start crying. They would just be like, I can't believe you would say the word gun near me, let alone imply I have one. No, it hasn't come up. Just felt like I've been on the same page enough with everybody. I'm the opposite of Thomas, which is that someone's like, so what do you do? And I'm like, well, I tell Christians to fuck themselves because they destroyed our country starting in 2016. What do you doing? So I really, I feel like I've got a pretty good gauge.

0:30:10 Tom: Yeah.

0:30:28 Thomas: I Might start doing that. I'll be honest, that might be a good idea, yeah.

0:30:34 Eli: Um. That's a pretty good idea. No. I w- that's, that's what I was going to say, is like, but that is a fucking awesome idea. Here's the problem, Tom. Here's a problem. There is no way I could ask that question in a reasonable and civil manner because I would be like, so, um, the exact, you beat me to it. Exactly, I would have been like, so are you literally the worst kind of human? Are you like the right? Should you really not exist? Like, when we do the math on it, should, should you just maybe be ground up into some kind of paste that feeds the starving? I mean, sorry, sorry. Do you use corporal punishment at home is what I mean. I know, Thomas, you know what to do in that scenario. And got some great advice for you. I've given this advice a couple of times on the show, but I can't emphasize it enough. Enough, have you tried being married to Anna Bosnick?

0:30:37 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Hey, are you a piece of shit, that's good Oh, Man,

0:31:27 Eli: Because because At this point, if someone hits or even talks about hitting a kid within 10 miles of my wife, I'm like, you know that scene in an action movie where they like steal the retired hero's girlfriend or kill John Wick's dog and you're like, oh, you done fucked up now? That's how I feel when someone gets hitting adjacent near a child within 10 miles of my wife, is I'm like, oh, you're, you're weak, sucks man, you're my, you'll remember this as a, you're gonna put a big frowny face on your calendar based on

0:31:28 Thomas: I don't know, I don't know, yeah.

0:31:48 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:32:03 Eli: How quickly my wife gets to you. Yes.

0:32:06 Thomas: And I don't, I have two thoughts. One is, um, said a moment ago, anger works. I DON'T know what the right response is in that moment. I actually don't. You this is a guy who's a tough guy and this is a guy, who I could imagine an altercation. And so I'm doing the moment, I'm I'm doing the quick math of like, do I tell this guy how much he fucking sucks? And then, then I'm at a fight at a kid's birthday party. Like, is that better? Is that a better, you know, like, I don't know. So then, and then when you said about Anna, I don't, I know how Anna is with men who actually seem threatening. I Um, dunno if she just still has no chill. Um, maybe that would give her a license. Like being a woman would kind of give her a little bit of leeway there. Like he's not gonna, he's not gonna fight a woman. I don't think not until he's at home.

0:32:31 Tom: Right.

0:32:47 Tom: At a public birthday party.

0:32:48 Thomas: Yeah, so yeah, so maybe that would make it a little easier to like just fucking yell at the guy, because I genuinely was just sitting wondering what the fuck to do. Like, I don't know, I don't know that it would have been best to get into some sort of fucking conflict with this guy, like, I, I don't think I, you know I yeah

0:33:03 Tom: No, no, no. It wouldn't have. It wouldn't. It would have accomplished anything. What would what would doing that accomplish? I think the it's not like he's going to like have a sober moment of reflection, like, oh, that guy just met a minute ago, you of my parenting choices. People are defensive as fuck about their parenting choices to start with. So like, no, wouldn't accomplish shit. I think, think the only thing that like you could have done is been like, okay, I'm out, and you just grabbed Your kids and left you know, and and I don't know that that accomplishes anything, to be honest, either, except for to kind of punish your kids, right

0:33:06 Thomas: Yeah nothing yeah yeah

0:33:19 Eli: So

0:33:20 Thomas: Exactly. Yeah yeah well it's and the kid's party, birthday who it was, you know, like that, that's

0:33:40 Tom: Right

0:33:40 Thomas: Not, it wasn't his, so I, yeah, I all that went through my mind, and in real time you're just like, fuck, man, we're like what do you, and there's so much social, the pressure of having everybody there and kids there, is like, I don't, you know, like, I, I don't want to just spout off, I don't want to just like let it go and just be like, what the fuck is, you know, because I will be the bad guy very quickly in their eyes, like pretty quick, you know, as much as people don't agree with hitting their kids in general, there's also a lot of like yes I made the scene, and don't tell other people how to parent their kids is also something that will grab a few more tens

0:33:43 Tom: Yeah yeah yeah right

0:33:48 Eli: You made this scene, it's a big thing yes and

0:34:13 Tom: It's a big deal that's a big fucking

0:34:19 Thomas: Of percent so yeah, I just, I honestly froze, I didn't know what to do, I kind of, you just got out of the situation eventually. But yeah, I don't know.

0:34:19 Eli: There's so

0:34:19 Tom: Deal well part of the reason you don't know what to do too is that that there's no goal to accomplish here, right? And that's what makes the problem solving so difficult is that you know something just went down. You know that it was wrong. You know, that you feel like there should be some reaction to it. But the problem-solving part of your brain is like, well, there's actually no goal to accomplish. So there's not a problem-solving part to it, there's just no way for you to sit, at least that's how I feel. There's no way from me to be like, all right, I want this outcome.

0:34:31 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:34:53 Tom: What is the thing I need to do to get the outcome? Because that's why we're always trained to solve problems, right? Like, okay, there's a problem. I know what the outcome is. All of the activity now needs to work toward that, that outcome. What's the fucking outcome. You're going to change this fucking stranger's mind. You're going to have like a fucking hearts and minds moments with them where he has a Saul to Paul moment. Like that's nonsense. That's not going to happen. Like, so I don't know what the goal is and absent a goal, I have no clue how to to fucking solve a problem.

0:35:04 Thomas: Yeah exactly.

0:35:22 Eli: I have been witness to this thrice, twice with where Anna took the lead and once where Anna was not there, and so I took the lid, and the best that I came up with was, this is dad and this kid, and he was like, "You're gonna get spanked, you're gonna get spank right here on the train," and I was like, "Well, I'm not gonna watch a kid get hit," right? That was my main thing is I was like, I'm not gonna sit here and watch this play out, so I was like, "Hey, man, you're not allowed to hit your kid on here," and I don't know why, I was just, the authority, authority-based language, the guy was like, "Oh, there's no hitting kids on the subway," and just, just didn't it, I like, whatever, fucking lizard brain thing connected and

0:35:26 Thomas: Wow.

0:36:01 Thomas: That's awesome. The master of these kinds of hacks. Like somehow you just find the social fabric that's like, oh, I can't. Oh yeah. That like makes a weird kind of sense. Yeah you you must not be allowed to hit your kids on the subway. Okay.

0:36:12 Eli: Exactly he He was just, oh yeah, no, they said,

0:36:16 Thomas: That ordinance.

0:36:17 Eli: They said, And then the two times Anna's intervened, I can't tell the stories of, explicitly, I have been forbidden because they're too good, is why I'm not allowed to tell those fucking stories. But I will say this, I will say this. One of those instances, right, the gentleman in question decided that he was gonna like, maybe, perhaps you and I shall have some violence, young lady. And the absolute psychotic stuff I started yelling at that juncture eliminated any question of whether there would be conflict because I was like, I am on the Jungle Book, I will dance upon the bones of the dead as the sons sing the last songs of the forespoken people, and everyone was just like, all right, well, I think we can all agree that guy overreacted.

0:36:17 Thomas: Yeah.

0:36:44 Tom: All right.

0:37:05 Tom: So I figured it out. Here's the thing you got to do. As soon as that kid gets hit, you got a pull down your pants and underpants, stick your ass at the guy and ask him to go next, just defuse me next me, next, you know, shake your ass at him, you know,

0:37:15 Thomas: Yeah. At a kid's party, that'll solve it. Yeah, you're

0:37:18 Eli: What's what's your safe word, daddy? He turns around, you're wearing a ball gag. Nice, nice, yeah man, you don't- look, it's, it's a really tough situation, and I know we, like, all of our listeners don't hit their kids, because if you hit your kids, you're actually legally not allowed to listen to our show. So yeah, we do this is not

0:37:38 Tom: That's it, you

0:37:37 Thomas: Not allowed to. You can't hit your kids on our show, it doesn't, you're

0:37:39 Eli: Yeah,

0:37:40 Tom: Have to un- -download it, if you've already done you have to un-download it, yeah yeah

0:37:41 Thomas: Not allowed, yeah well

0:37:41 Eli: You can't, it re -downloads it every 26 seconds. Most of our listeners are hitting their kids while they listen. But I think a lot of us have been in that scenarios. A lot of listeners are in family scenarios, right? Where they may have siblings or family who hit their kids, and, like, intervening is a big deal. So I'm really glad that you brought this topic up, this discomfort up, um, even if there are no easy answers, you know, like, I, I wish that I could be like, well, here's my pizza pie of perfect response, if your sister hits your kids and you don't, but like, I, I think sometimes as parents just hearing, hey, none of us like this and it's okay that you want to intervene and it's okay that you froze and didn't know what to do in that moment, um, is enough, and and will empower the next person to to speak up or do whatever it is they need to do to just

0:38:11 Tom: Yeah

0:38:38 Thomas: I still don't know what, like, if I could think of what, as Tom was saying, if I can think of what I'm trying to get out of it, then I, like, I'm not, I would speak up if it made sense, but I don't know that it made sent, you know, like, I, I can't, I still don't know what the right answer, I, I guess the the

0:38:48 Tom: You know

0:38:54 Eli: Get a cup of bleach, drink this quick. So

0:38:56 Thomas: Goal, the goal, I guess, if I articulate the goal, would be I would really like to put out there that it's not okay to hit your fucking kids, and maybe I could have just said something, I don't know, maybe I should, it's, yeah, it's a one of those weird situations, you know, yeah.

0:39:11 Tom: I know you were just joking a second ago, but like, it's like it's different if it's family, right? If it's like your sister or something, I conversation, because there's... there's like love, there's respect, there's, you know, history and family there. I think you can, like, you, Thomas, like, you could, you could get that point across. Some stranger you just met at a party, though, I, only way to express that to that person would be to visibly be like, well, I'm out, and then just go get your kids, and that would be, that would be obviously disapproval in a way that's non-confrontational, but the problem is you got got to make your kids pay the price for that, they got to get out of the pool and stop having fun because some other jackass, so you're like proving a point to a stranger that they may not appreciate at the expense of your kid's day, yeah.

0:39:16 Eli: Different, yeah

0:39:36 Thomas: And that's the other thing yeah and

0:39:46 Eli: I

0:39:56 Thomas: Not only that, once I had taken the, you know, however long that pause of what the fuck is happening, then it was like things had moved on. I'm like, fuck, I don't know what, okay, and then I just had to find a way out. It's like, I gotta be ready for these things, I gotta figure out, like, next time what do I do? So I do kind of wonder, like, what do you think is the best thing to do? Do you think it's worth trying to at least make some sort of, you know, statement of values in a way, or something, in some way, in leaving, and whatever? I did get out of there, but yeah, at

0:40:27 Eli: Stand by I stand buy, you're not allowed to hit your kids in here, because you are in fact not allowed to hit kids anywhere. Just Just throw it up for authority. Oh, I'm so sorry, you're actually not- no, I'd hate your kids in here because it's a place and that's a kid.

0:40:35 Thomas: All. Yeah, there you go. Yeah.

0:40:41 Tom: Because I love that, now we don't do that, places, uh, not where people are so no, well

0:40:49 Thomas: And, and anyway, then it really, I don't remember the order of the conversation, but then it was like, oh yeah, that is, he, he would been talking about, I think the host had been someone who liked, you know, whiskeys or something. And he was like, yeah, I don't, I shouldn't, I don't drink cause you know, a little, a little volatile. I was like. Oh, you don't say. And, uh, and he's like, Yeah, the psilocybin that one, uh, you know, that helps. I was, like, Yeah, fucking you should have a lot of that all the time, the time would double, triple it. Yeah.

0:41:09 Tom: Really Really?

0:41:16 Eli: You should have. You should. Hey, have you tried meth? Some heroin. What about some fentanyl? Huh? Let's just let's just have you rub a bunch of random dollar bills.

0:41:21 Thomas: Yeah. I hear that. I

0:41:22 Tom: Jesus Christ. Lots and lots of fentanyl. To have that amount of self-awareness about your anger and volatility, and then that little amount of self-awareness about your anger and volatility all in the same moment is like astonishing.

0:41:37 Thomas: I think he still thinks it's okay. I think there are a lot of people who still just think this is okay. Like they don't, I don't think he thinks he's being a bad guy. I think, I think you think he's finding the way to stop his kid from disrupting other kids. That was the other thing that happened. I, this happened before the hitting. Um, this was another thing that would put have it been a weird situation. Phoebe was the one in the pool thingy or whatever the, bullshit, whatever you of water um, Arlo was inside playing with what god knows what and she was crying at a certain point and he goes over, he's like, "Did he do that?" Like the dad is like, "Did you do that? Did he," you know, like whatever the kid's name was, you know, and this was before the hitting, but fortunately Phoebe, I, I think it ended up being something else, you know, like it was, she like fell on her own or something, but that was

0:41:46 Tom: Right? No, of course not.

0:42:13 Tom: Yeah,

0:42:22 Thomas: A fuck

0:42:23 Eli: She's crying about the season finale of Transparent. So.

0:42:24 Thomas: That was the thing where it's like, god, now it's, it's like, do you, do you name names? Do you risk, you know, like if that comes up,

0:42:26 Tom: Yeah, no, that's dude. That's a good point. Like when, when you see a parent behave like that, that all of a sudden, all other interactions, you're trying to run interference for that kid, right? That kid starts to behave like a dick, and you're like, I'm going to fucking hide that. He takes a fucking soda. You're like that's my soda. I pissed my pants. Like whatever. Like anything you can.

0:42:32 Thomas: God, Yeah. Yep. Exactly.

0:42:50 Eli: I'm sorry. I pissed your kids pants, man. Don't be weird about it.

0:43:01 Eli: All right, gentlemen, before we go, I was one so broke I couldn't afford to pay my electricity bill. Those were some dark times, um,

0:43:16 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

0:43:56 Tom: Think you'd love your kids unconditionally well I think they're young enough that that's that's a right, that's a right place. I if they're 25, you still think you're gonna love yeah you're not gonna it'll be insane if they were 25 and you love them unconditionally, that would be insane, yeah.

0:43:57 Thomas: Yeah, I do. Yeah. So on condition that they don't get older. Yeah we'll, we'll talk about that. I don't know. We'll see.