DOD72: Division of Labor

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Tom: Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's both pushing and pulling its own weight. I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined, as always, by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:38 Eli: I'm just trying to lift my weight, Tom. I don't know about this push and pull business you got going on. If I could just carry it from one room to the next, I've done my best.

0:00:49 Thomas: Too am here right on Time. Punctual as always.

0:00:52 Tom: Right on top, fresh as a daisy, here's Thomas Smith.

0:00:55 Thomas: Yeah. Old Reliable Thomas.

0:00:59 Tom: Yeah, I, I did the same. Thomas, Thomas is a little late to the record this morning, he had a little, little bit of a lie-in, as they say across the pond. Um, I did that the other day, I had a meeting, I had an 8 a.m. phone call for work that, uh, thankfully one of my managers was on and he took it for me, because I did not take that call, I just, just didn't, and I'm up all the time by seven, I'm never awake later than seven, and I was just, I just missed it, I just fucking straight up up miss that call, so whatever, man. It happens.

0:01:27 Eli: Snoozed through.

0:01:17 Thomas: Oh yeah. Oh, see, I'm never up at that hour.

0:01:30 Eli: Mm-hmm.

0:01:28 Tom: Um, and, know, speaking of pushing and pulling your own weight, I sent you guys a message about this, but I want to gripe about it on air, so, um, because I can, haha, but know, we talked about this, is a particular toxicity, um, male-dominated online spaces that shocks nobody, right? Like it's It's just horrible. I know.

0:01:46 Thomas: No. Oh, yeah.

0:01:48 Eli: Mm -mm.

0:01:49 Tom: Like the gym community is, I think, particularly bad for this stuff because it's a bunch of fucking bro dudes.

0:01:54 Thomas: Coming in with this 2003 fresh news.

0:01:55 Tom: Right. What?

0:01:57 Thomas: Yeah. This Just in, everyone.

0:01:57 Eli: Hey, hey, hey.

0:02:00 Tom: Focused gym community as toxic as guys gather around.

0:02:03 Thomas: Tom. Now, when you go on these internet things, does it make the sound of Yeah?

0:02:10 Tom: It fucking should. I it. I built a gym in my basement. And I had questions about some of the equipment I wanted to buy. So I joined at the suggestion of a guy that I actually bought stuff from Marketplace on. He's like, oh, there's like this great Facebook group. You could join it. And like, there was like people buying and selling. And I'm like, all right, cool. It's the worst. It's like the worst group ever. It's because like, and it's the worse in part because sometimes it's not. So it's so bad that you just leave it, because occasionally you actually do see something like that's actually a great idea.

That's good advice. Or I had a question and somebody answered it. But the other day I posted a question because, like, in the basement, I have these big rubber horse stall mats. And the ones that I bought are four foot by six foot and they weigh 110 pounds each. And they're all fucking floppy and fucking unwieldy and obnoxious. And they deliver them not to your basement, but to the outside of your house. So I grab them and I got a lot of them. I bought 20 of them, right, in total, total, so

0:02:11 Eli: Right.

0:02:37 Thomas: Yeah,

0:03:10 Tom: Like, it's not like I have one and I just have to figure this out, I've got a lot of these things, I have four left that I have to move and I don't have any help right now to move these things, so it's just the Tom show, and so I've got 440 pounds of fucking floppy dick rubber things to like, bring into the house and

0:03:25 Thomas: And That's Just Tom. Then you have to carry this stuff. Too.

0:03:28 Eli: Ha,

0:03:28 Tom: That's Just me. Right? Then I gotta carry something, like, and if you want on floppy dick rubber things, you can head over to Etna, so, but but I've got these I gotta manage and I don't want to like drag them through my house because I'll scuff up the fucking floor and walls, I gotta, I gotta figure some way to maneuver these things. So I asked, I'm like, oh, I bet the guys in the fucking home gym page have had to move these things around and not everybody has help, so I bet someone's got a good idea. So I post the question, I'm, okay, any suggestions? And I post was this question, I thought it was a perfectly reasonable question in this group, god.

0:03:28 Eli: Ha, ha.

0:03:36 Thomas: And You Just get a 20 comments of, well, do you listen on Joe Rogan? Oh, on Joe Rogan. Do you, Joe Rogin?

0:04:03 Eli: Ha, he,

0:04:04 Tom: Joe Rogan had a fucking six hour episode on exactly how to not be him. I got like three people who were really nice, and they're like, you know what, I had the same problem, use ratchet straps, it gives you something to hold on to and it keeps it from moving around. I went out today, I bought ratchet straps, I intend to move them with no difficulty, right, it's a great idea, just didn't occur to me. Then I got 12 people, like, maybe join a gym and get stronger so you can build your home home jim, you pussy. I was like, I got, all I got trolled so hard that I deleted, I fucking went in and dirty deleted the post because I was like, I just, I don't want to see another notification with some fucking dude bro, all of which by the way are half my size, telling me to stop being a pussy. It made me so grouchy, right?

0:04:29 Eli: He.

0:04:06 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'll keep being a pussy, goddammit. Don't tell me what, what, anatomy to be.

0:04:52 Tom: Right?

0:04:50 Eli: Yeah. I that you'd experienced a microcosm of the internet itself, right, which is like, man, this thing fucking sucks and it's just full of shit, but yeah, I guess occasionally there's a good answer in there, so maybe, maybe this will be the time that I get treated with decency, and respond, oh, no, the thing that happens 99% of the time happened, which

0:05:10 Tom: I know. You are not right. It absolutely validates my disgust and distance from the internet, right? Because every time I try, I'm like, well, maybe if I dip my toe in a little, and it's like, what if we bite your toe? I'm just not putting my toe here. This is, is not where I put my toes, this is the worst, yes.

0:05:32 Eli: Again, is double doubly true, and metaphorical for the internet, because if anyone's ever gone to a gym regularly, with, I can say, microcosmic exception, everyone at the gym is so fucking nice. You go to a gem and you're like, hey, I wonder what pre -workout I should buy, and everyone appears like some kind of cherub in a Looney Tune to be like, well, pal, this is the, the one that I, but the minute you put us all behind computers, it's just like, my hands are typing a slur and I don't know why.

0:05:54 Thomas: Yeah, always used to say, well, it's an anonymity that does it, but I don't really think that's it because it was this Facebook. Did you say?

0:06:14 Tom: Was Facebook.

0:06:14 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it'S, you're not really anonymous. I mean I guess you don't. Know each other per se, but II think eventually people always used to it was that, and I think eventually we realized like, oh, it isn't exactly that.

0:06:14 Tom: Yeah. No. Yeah.

0:06:27 Thomas: I like you're protected from any physical consequences from anything, especially with man stuff, you know, and it's more of that, you could find these people, you find them, track them down, no, to their houses, yeah,

0:06:38 Eli: Yep.

0:06:38 Tom: Well, other fitness groups that I'm in that are more co-ed, like this one is a very heavily dude focus group, right? Like I you look it's like, it's not even nine out of ten, it's nine and a half out of 10 are like men, men for sure. Like you, but in other fitness groups that I'm in that are much more balanced and co-ed, people are generally really cool. Like, I'm in a bunch of cycling groups, I'm in other types of fit, that we, it's just like, we put all these guys together, and it's like, and I'm like, who are you doing this for? Who is your audience?

0:06:45 Thomas: I would never be there in a million years, yeah.

0:07:10 Tom: Like what is they look around, man? You're just on your phone.

0:07:07 Eli: Touch

0:07:09 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, I know, I I guess, at least if, like, I don't know, if they were gay or something, maybe they're performing for the other men, but it's not, that would, like, be nice, I would be like, oh, okay, you're trying to, trying to perform for me or something, but they're just doing some weird performance for nothing?

0:07:15 Eli: Grass, touch, my new head canon is, every troll on the internet is gay and thinks this is what men like, and another thing about the Barbie movie, dudes are so hard at this, so I'm on Letterboxd, speaking of the internet being a terrible place, I'm on Letterboxd, and I cannot recommend, if you want to see how much work our podcast has yet to do, how far we have to climb, read the Letterboxed reviews for Barbie, because here's the thing, Rotten Tomatoes, anybody can get on, hi, I'm going through a psychotic episode, Ben Shapiro said the name of your thing, and so now I'm gonna write a death threat on the internet because the health support system in this country is bad, but Letterboxd is for movie nerds who want to talk about movies.

0:07:31 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, God.

0:07:37 Tom: You're oh, okay.

0:08:19 Eli: And if you've never seen a guy who's read Roger Ebert's book six times try to explain why the Barbie movie made him feel bad in his tum-tum, you are missing out. But gentlemen, there's only one worse thing than the internet's reaction to the Barbie movies, and you know what that is, auto ads, and if you'd like to get rid of them, if you're enjoying our podcast and would like to not be interrupted by, say, a Verizon commercial in a language you don't speak, or a weird ad very obviously bought by a local lady for her hair dye that she is not going to sell on your podcast, you can head over to patreon.com/dearolddads all spelled out, give us as little as a dollar a show, you'll get an ad free version of every episode, but, but you also get behind the scenes bonus stuff. We got an extra child story at the end of every single episode and you get all of it over at patreon.com/dearolddads.

0:08:38 Tom: All right,

0:08:55 Thomas: It

0:09:19 Tom: So this week I wanted to talk, uh, speaking of the internet, I ran across a, I don't know, it's a, like a fucking reel or some like little internet video. I don't remember what it was, I don't remember what it was, it's, it, it was a small moving picture show, I, look,

0:09:25 Thomas: Was a motion picture and it was somehow on the the screen. I

0:09:26 Eli: You're so old, Tom. This was on tick tock six years ago. Oh, There's this song about a fish coming up on Instagram. You are all, you're going to love it.

0:09:36 Thomas: Don't know what that is, but I bet that's a really funny joke.

0:09:42 Tom: I'm a sucker, like, I will click on the, like the, the old people saying, like here is how I made my marriage last, I' m a sucker for that shit, I'll click on it, like whatever,

0:09:48 Thomas: Yeah. Well, do you click on it just because it's nine times out of 10, it's going to be the stupidest fucking thing ever. Or do you actually think there's going be wisdom there?

0:09:56 Eli: And I guarantee Tom loves that shit.

0:09:58 Thomas: Yeah.

0:09:56 Tom: You know, it it's, it's 20 % useful, 80 % fucking nothing.

0:09:58 Thomas: Okay. Is Well so what we do is we don't talk on even -numbered days. And that way, yeah,

0:10:02 Tom: Right.

0:10:08 Eli: Yeah.

0:10:09 Tom: Actually 20 % peaceful, 50 % useless. And like 10 % like alarming. Actually, sometimes you'll be like, you don't know what I do. Like whenever she gets out out of line and give her a good wackadoo. And you're like, Whoa, Whoa. Whoa. How are you making this video? What is the fuck is happening?

0:10:16 Thomas: Yeah. Exactly.

0:10:16 Eli: Yeah. Yeah. There's nothing better than wandering across bullshit TikTok or Instagram because the internet just occasionally offers it to you, right? The internet will just be like, 9/11 trutherism, and you're like, no, internet, not interested in 9-11 trutherism. And they're like, okay, I'll tell you some anti-vax stuff a little bit later. You let me know what you want to do. I

0:10:44 Tom: I run across this one and I sent I sent It over to you Guys because I, I actually had a lot of thoughts about this little video. It's one of those things that like on the surface, It's like, yeah, you know, you're whenever your partner does some for you, you got skills you don't have, consider that a blessing, you know, and it's it's I thought it was very sweet and very bland. And really, there wasn't a whole lot there. But I thought about and I have thought Yeah, it's very sweet and very blend, just like the rice pudding we'll all be forced to eat after our teeth fall out. Get me to thinking about division of labor in a household. And it's something we've talked about in the sense that I think we've admonished people to pull their weight, right? I think in, in a general sense, we've said like, hey, you know, you should be aware of the amount of labor you're doing and you're not doing. But I think a broader conversation about division of labor would be really interesting.

Cause I think actually, that the most sort of like recent generational focus that I've I've seen kind of just in online spaces about making sure that everything is fair is no good. I think that's like generally like kind of actually bad advice, like a hyper fixation or focus on fairness. And

0:11:05 Eli: Like old people, exactly.

0:11:11 Thomas: Is

0:11:53 Eli: Yeah.

0:11:53 Tom: I wanted to get your thoughts on division of labor. I'm also curious how labor was divided in your homes growing up, maybe as a starting point.

0:12:01 Eli: I mean, it's it's so fascinating because I feel like in modernity, instead of there being one flavor of bad advice, which was like, daddy works from nine to five and mama's kissing the babies, right, which is what we grew up with. Now

0:12:16 Thomas: That the new Try That in a Small Town song? Song. It's

0:12:19 Eli: Try that in a small town, yeah. Know if you try that in a small town, you'll get shot, apparently. I don't know if you know that, yeah.

0:12:22 Thomas: Come here to hate crime well yeah, division of labor on hate crimes, though, like, who's supposed to do that? Is it just it's just the men yeah okay that's right that's right, but it so and but because hate crimes are kind of extracurricular, you better make sure as a a wife that you've got a pot of stew going for when he gets home.

0:12:28 Eli: I say, well, the husband does the hate crimes right right right

0:12:28 Tom: Depending on your geography, it's a family event. Actually so yeah

0:12:41 Thomas: From a a hard day's racism you know

0:12:41 Eli: Is for when you get back from your hard days hate crime, and yeah, absolutely. And then the and then the son eventually has to take over the hate criming. And the daughters get to help with the stew. Yeah, right. So there used to be that bad division of labor, but now there's like 10,000 flavors of bad divisional flavor, and none of them are good, right? They're either, they're either the like post-woke boys who are like, well, you know, in our family it's so important that we check, and you just see the woman in the background being like, "Wash a fucking dish, you piece of shit," and he's just like, "Which is why, you know, every night when we do our touch check-in, I'm just like, please, I had a seventh kid, I am so aware of," like, emotionally, you know, what we do.

And then of course you've got the like opposite thing, because now there's work from home culture, um, and so this is what my buddy David calls the work from home trap, right, which is that a lot of spouses who used to work in office, now work from whom, are like, oh, awesome, I can help out with the kids now, right? We can equal out this division of labor. And it doesn't matter gender, right?

If you were the person and working, and now you're working from home, you're like, "Oh my gosh, I'm so excited to help out with my kids." But now they just do

0:12:43 Thomas: Yeah yeah yeah

0:12:56 Tom: Yes

0:13:53 Eli: Two jobs, right? Now they just try to do their work from home job while also co -raising their kids. And the best example that David gives of this, because he definitely fell into this trap when his boys, he's got twin boys, when his twin boys were growing up, is he's he works for a very prestigious marketing firm, like a really, really big, really fancy marketing firm, and he's being a good dad, right? Oh my gosh, I'm picking up the labor and, like, I'm helping out. And he is just on this Zoom call, and someone goes, "Dave, do you have a bottle warmer in your shot?" And he was like, "Yeah," and they were like, "Do you mind moving your bottle warmer full of slightly warmed milk out of the shot for this pitch call that we're about to do with fucking Coca-Cola?" And he was like, right, yeah, no, still at work, they're not exactly on the whole like double duty train, uh.

0:13:53 Thomas: Well

0:14:02 Tom: Right, you know when you were a kid, Eli, how was labor divided? Because both your parents worked, right? Right.

0:15:00 Eli: No, my mom worked from home, she was a writer and a teacher occasionally, but she wasn't a full-time teacher the way she is now, she was teaching one or two semesters a year, but she usually only taught like one or two class, so it was a pretty classic, you know, uh, worked nine to, well, in his case, dad worked 9 to 9:30, um, the next morning, and and mom stayed home and took care of me, and then there were babysitters. Sort of making up the slack.

0:15:21 Tom: Gotcha and Thomas, your dad didn't do much of anything. Anything. So, your mom just your mom just put it all on her shoulders and ran. Right.

0:15:29 Thomas: I mean, he well, be fair, I mean, he was the stay-at-home dad, so he did, he, the child care for the day, um, the most part. And it was more, um, as time went by, he just got worse and worse, you know, so I I think, I'm not sure, um, of your angle on this, because mine, I think I've already expressed my, like, I think a lot of my brain space on this particular point is just taken up with the make sure you're not taking a bunch of labor for granted that your your wife is doing. Like, that's where my main insight is on this. And so I don't want to like rehash that because I feel like I've covered it. Think I want to hear what your what critique was of this thing. Cause, know, it's that kind of thing where, like, I'm so consumed with that battle every day of

0:15:43 Tom: Gotcha.

0:16:15 Tom: Right.

0:16:15 Thomas: Like, I need to make sure I am not taking Lydia for granted and I'm probably still failing. Like, it's so hard to, especially when Lydia and I fall into, in a few ways, kind of the stereotypes in terms of what we pay attention to, you what resonates us. Since we fall into those typical gender roles, it makes it that much harder to not just into that rut and take it for granted.

Like I can't, you know, like she is keeps track of all the people things and I like the birthday stuff and the whatever. And I'm way more geared toward any other like house task stuff. And I just worry so much about like, well, shit, it is actually quite a lot of emotional labor to be tracking all that stuff, to be doing all that stuff. And I think I've already said my piece on that on this show.

So at least for now, I'll let suffice to say that, you my dad, he did some stuff, you know, but he did, he didn't like we talked about last time he did that kind of physical work that, yeah, sure. It seems really pretty difficult on the day that you do it. And then that's like, you know three, four or five days

0:17:18 Thomas: A year.

0:17:18 Tom: That's task based.

0:17:19 Thomas: Yeah. And, then it's like well that, but the other stuff is every day, all day, every day. Like, you, know, The kids' stuff, the emotional labor, the lunches, the all that, that's every fucking day.

0:17:19 Tom: Yeah, right. Right. Think I see, you your point earlier, Eli, like the bad advice kind of comes around sometimes full circle where I think there's a really heavy emphasis on sort of division a of labor that that is sort of added up and qualified and then divided out and then, you know, task -based. So it's like, okay, well, when we divide labor in our house, you do the dishes and I do the laundry and you do this.

And I've seen, I've seen a ton of this stuff in like relationship advice forums and posts and things where it's like, ah, you know, in our house, the division of labor is this and it's this very defined sort of structure. And and I got to thinking about how like desire for there to be parity or equity creates like, all right, well, I'm doing exactly 50% % and you're doing exactly 50%. And it's like, alright, so now we've, we've got that done and dusted.

And then what if somebody like misses 1% % or 5% % or forgets the laundry or sleeps in or gets sick or has a bad bad day. Like those divisions of labor in a household that seek to like sort of like enforce

0:18:37 Tom: Fairness. I think they breed resentment. I think they're really problematic. I think a way better way to look at labor in a household is there is a work that needs to be done. And then we all do it. And some days I'm going to do more and some days you're going to do more. And what we're never going to to do is keep score. And what we're never going to do is have a fucking ledger book that makes sure that I've accumulated 12 work units and you've accumulated 12 work units because that's what we decide fair is. I think that's actually really unfair.

0:18:40 Eli: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:19:07 Tom: I think fairness is based on your constitution for labor. That's what fairness is. And I think about it in the same way that you see if you look again in a lot of like sort of relationship forum spaces where one person makes a lot more money than another person. They move in together. They don't split the rent 50-50. They split the rent based on income. So if somebody makes a lot more money, they pay 70 percent of the rate rent. Right. If somebody has a much higher constitution for work, I think that that's something you should know about your partner going into a relationship.

You should know what their constitution for labor is. And I think you should be that should be like as important as finding out like stance on like, you equality, you know, like it should be that urgent to know and to understand because when you get in a relationship with somebody dividing up labor 50-50 if you both don't share the same Constitution for work is just going to cause problems and resentments and I think it's it's a really fucked way to kind of look at how a team operates and like a family or a partnership should operate to get the work done as a team. Does that make makes

0:19:44 Eli: Absolutely.

0:20:16 Tom: Sense.

0:20:16 Eli: And I think often that comes from good intentions, right? I Think that our generation ish is aware that uh imbalance was a huge thing, especially between men and women, and you know, I've said before about like, I think that the marriages of today are vastly different than the marriages of yesterday and sort of how we view our partners, how close we are, what love means, what a marriage means are all vastly different in definition. So I think generally our generation is trying to do better, right? Especially when it comes To men. But I think this is true of everybody, right. I think regardless of your gender, same sex, gender, couples, like couples who have one person working in the household, two people working in a household, right, all of that is sort of of being in flux as we make healthier choices and are no longer held by these stereotypes. But that often, like I was saying earlier, leads us down the wrong road, right?

And one of the major ways that I see that imbalance take place is people taking on work they shouldn't take on, just like you were saying earlier Tom. Thomas probably isn't good at birthday stuff, I right, don't mean that in the sort of manufactured helplessness that we've talked about before on other episodes on this show is like, there is a real problem of the, I have to do it because it's my job thing.

And that mentality, um, because you can put your partner in a place where they are not getting the help they need or not getting the services they need, or just not getting things done nearly as quickly as they might otherwise be able to get them done in the name of quote unquote fairness. Right. And to use a great example from my own life is like Anna has pretty pretty bad phone anxiety, right? It's not medical condition. It's not super serious.

She just really doesn't like to call on the phone. And if it's something official, like talking to someone about a bill or clarifying something, receiving information, correcting someone, she feels really, really bad doing all of that. I don't give a shit at all. I put on Vampire Survivors on my games and I just wait on hold and I to jam out to the smooth jazz, right?

0:20:20 Tom: Yeah. Right. Right?

0:22:24 Eli: It requires no emotional labor for me to fill that gap, right, but in the beginning of our relationship, and I mean until a few years ago, Anna made all her own phone calls because I was making mine phone calls, so why wouldn't she be making hers, perfectly right. Innocent method of her trying to keep the workload equal that resulted in a bunch of pain and suffering that she actually hadn't needed To go through at all.

0:22:49 Tom: Yeah. Also kind of important to sort of negotiate and understand and make sure that everybody's on the same page on what the work even is that needs to be done. And this is a point that I see also, like that I, like I am, and I'll give you an example from my life. I am a bit of a neat neck. Like I like things to be pretty tidy, like just that's who I am, it's where I grew up in a house that was very tidy, I am by nature fairly tidy, Hayley is not tidy, so like in my mind there's work to do to Tidy up the house right in her mind there is not work to due to tidy up the house and and the Thing is that We're both Right But here's the Thing we're both Right No No she's not because It

0:23:19 Thomas: Oh. I Feel This No You're Right She's Wrong Might I beg to differ I Don't Know Tom Is There fucking food out, is there goddamn dishes with shit On them?

0:23:34 Eli: How

0:23:33 Tom: Literally Doesn't It matter No That's Not tidying, that's not tidied, that's cleaning There's a difference, I would, I would say there's A difference in cleaning and tidying Like Tidying Is making sure that things are put away, cleaning is making sure that the things are hygienic and sanitary, right Like, so food and dishes are unhygienic or unsanitary, so but like yeah You're You're Both Eli

0:23:56 Eli: Old's The How Old is the food

0:23:41 Thomas: Okay. Okay. I guess so. Hmm. Yeah. Well, Eli for a sec so we can have a human conversation about how a house should be.

0:24:02 Tom: Like Guess like my point is like if we don't have an initial agreement on what we value in terms of the work that needs to be done. We can't even begin the process of dividing up that labor in a way that feels fair to everybody and is equitable, right? So like if, if Haley were to clean up the house to her standard and be happy and satisfied, and I were to walk in and let's say it was her job to tidy up.

And I were to walk in and be like, this is half done. Cause it's not to the same standard that I hold. It's not that she didn't do the work, right? It's that we haven't agreed on a shared value around what that work outcome needs to be. And we might never agree on that, right. So that's there's emotional work there that has to be done. And I think if you're the person who, like in my case, is like, yeah, I prefer things to be tidier.

That's a value I hold that you don't hold, that de facto becomes my job. I don't think it's fair to say here are my values, you don't hold this value personally, but I will hand you this work to meet my standard right and I

0:25:08 Tom: I see that all the time. I see that, like, bridge that doesn't get crossed, and then people are resentful. Like, well, they didn't put away their fucking socks. And it's like, I don't care that the socks are out, a difference there. And that that's agreement on what labor is required to run a home is really important conversation that it's like elemental, like foundational work before that work can be divvied up that I don't see people doing and talking about.

0:25:08 Eli: Yeah Yeah.

0:25:33 Eli: It's funny, uh, Thomas mentioned my house, which is an absolute pigsty, and maybe I've told this story on air before, but if I haven't, it's it's one of my favorite about sort of me and Anna as a relationship. So we moved in together in New York, in my old apartment, um, we had been been together for like three or four months. Now, I will say, Anna, despite her objections, is not a neat person, okay, but she's neater than me, because she's not fucking disgusting, right, she is. She has some sense of humanity and decency, right? She doesn't need there to be like an organism growing out of food before she'll wash a dish, right? And in the first few months, again, this is back when, when we were younger, I had a nine to five, very intense sales job. And so she was not working, she was working as an actress. So her acting work was a little bit more fluctuating. And so in the first, like, I would say month or two, she was just doing all the cleaning, right? And I wasn't really noticing it, right? It was like that sketch

0:26:01 Tom: You

0:26:32 Thomas: Yeah.

0:26:32 Eli: About the laundry fairy, right? I was just sort of getting the laundry ferry. And then, you know, about a month or two into the relationship, she brought it up, and she was like, hey, you know, I'm doing all all the cleaning here, and this is really not okay, and I I really need you to be chipping in for the work. And, I genius that I am, was like, okay, wait, hear me out, what if neither of us do this, does the cleaning, and she was like, yeah, but then our our house will be just an absolute pigsty, and I was like, yes, and that is the agreement we have had moving forward, which is why everyone gasps masks ever so slightly when they walk into our house for the first time, exactly.

0:27:01 Tom: Know,

0:27:11 Thomas: Yeah, there's no, you you can't, you can divide by zero, I guess. Division of, no, zero is the numerator. Yeah, no, yeah, it's good. Anything, yeah. Zero divided by anything is zero. So that's good, just no labor.

0:27:15 Eli: Oh,

0:27:14 Tom: It's the imaginary, imaginary you. To call myself out differently, like, you, our household, Hayley has standards for the laundry that far exceed my standards for the laundry. Like, I'll get the laundry washed, dried, folded, and put away, but like, I'm not separating shit by colors, like, I don't care. I literally do not care you know and like I am not going to fold like shirts that go under other clothes. I'm not going to fold them. You know, like, I have a standard that is much, much lower.

0:27:37 Eli: Get out of here with that get out here what is it 1911. come on. Yeah.

0:27:38 Thomas: Yeah. No, you don't need to.

0:27:50 Thomas: That's a solid policy.

0:27:50 Tom: Why

0:27:51 Thomas: Actually, I, that's a tough question. Cause I, I took that policy on too, where I was like, well, this shit, like underwear and stuff that no one sees, why would you fold it? But I don't know. There's also, There's also a mental component of like, yeah, but then it's all fucking wrinkly. I don't know. So I used to do that. And then I was like, no, I'm going to fold it.

0:27:59 Tom: Am I going to hold that? Yeah. Yeah. My nice stuff gets hung up. Everything else just gets kind of, you know, when I, but was that my standard. Right. So in our house, like Haley takes on the laundry, she does the laundry because she has a standard for now. I've been doing it since she's been sick, but like generally she does a lot of laundry because she does it. She does the laundry because he has a higher standard for how she wants that task accomplished.

And that's part of that division of labor that I think is, how points in the column is that worth? Because it's like, yeah, I'll do my laundry, but I'm going to do it. I'll do all the household laundry, But I'm gonna do it the way I want it done. And that's at a four compared to your 10. And so I think that that's a piece of the dividing up of labor that is, I think, really often overlooked and is a really fair and foundational and fundamental piece of having that conversation before you can even start meaningfully getting to it.

I also think, and this is just from personal experience recently, when divide up labor, if you in your head have an idea about how labor should be divided up and you want it to be fair and everything should be fair, and fair in your mind is equal, and equal is the same number of units of work performed by partner A and partner B, that system will be a problem if somebody gets sick. And I'll tell you what, like that is born out.

If you look at like what happens to women when they get sick, and I think we may have talked about this on the show, when women get sick like deeply sick, they are counseled by doctors and nurses to be on the lookout for the the fact that their partner may leave. Like when women get sick, like deathbed sick, cancer sick, big sick, their partners fucking

0:28:43 Eli: And Right.

0:29:49 Tom: Leave. And they leave in numbers that dwarf the gender opposite. Right, when men get sick, their wives don't leave. When women gets sick, their husbands fucking peace out. They divorce. What happens, what happens with such alarming regularity that doctors and nurses routinely counsel women who get severe diagnosis that, hey, this might be something that you have to to deal with.

0:30:09 Tom: And there's a lot of reasons for that. But I think that part of how we avoid these kind of things is by avoiding resentments. And part of the way you avoid resentments is being like, hey, we're just a team. How this works. And team, everybody pitches in and that's how the work gets done. And sometimes I carry a heavier load and sometimes you carry a heavier load. And that's actually fair. That an eye toward achieving the ultimate goal and knowing what that goal is and agreeing on it as a household, I think that's way more fair than being like, well, I got to make sure my work units this week were accomplished. And I'm, by the way, looking to make you are

0:30:09 Thomas: Boy, that sucks.

0:30:46 Tom: Too, right?

0:30:46 Thomas: Well, no. My wife and I have time cards and we punch in. Our household motto is work will set you free. So we make

0:30:54 Eli: Yeah.

0:30:55 Tom: Oh, fuck.

0:30:55 Thomas: Sure.

0:30:57 Eli: And I think a lot of that comes from the fact that men, even modern men, right, I'm really not talking about the archaic, like, come home to the Mrs. pipe and slippers. I think a lot of men, and you see this a lot in manosphere, think of, they're like, I'm looking for a partner, right, got my back and I've got hers, and, you know, he's a little bit crazy but he's the best grandpa, and that, this weird sort of like, we're two powers, forces, and we must swing equal weights as we gently fight off the world, or whatever the fuck that mentality is. And that means that the minute, again, the minute someone needs support, that thing that you actually got into the relationship for, right, that balancing act, that partner, that benefit, that other half is no longer there. And so it's very easy for you to sacrifice the other parts of it, like the relationship itself, right? Because you weren't actually in that relationship because you cared about your partner. You were in that relationships for what you could get out of it.

0:31:06 Tom: Right. Yes.

0:31:58 Tom: Yeah. Yeah. And that's, that's that very, that that's exactly right. Cause it, I think it creates a very transactional kind of partner space and that transactional space. Like if I'm involved in anything that's transactional and I am, I'll raise my hand. Like when I employ other people, if as soon as something feels transactional, I'm always watching to make sure I get my value, right. Make sure I get my sort of quote unquote money's worth. And I think that if people get into a relationship And they're like, all right, well, she's going to do all the things I'm not good at and I'll do all the things she's not good At. And that's how we parse it out. And it's like, all right. Well, what happens if all the Things that you're not good At she can't do or vice Versa because somebody gets sick. Do You know how to do those things? Like do you Like actually have The skills like dividing up labor Strictly like that also Makes us less competent Because we don't ever dip our Toe in the other person's water to do those tasks, to become competent at those things.

0:32:39 Eli: Yes.

0:32:40 Thomas: Well, I also.

0:32:59 Thomas: Yeah, that's what I was going to say to you. I mean, I already said where I'm coming from on this. I think the biggest struggle for our current era is way more that men just don't do enough and take women's labor for granted. I think that's the biggest problem. And from where I'm coming from, and I know that's not you, Tom, because you pull 10 fucking horse cart loads worth of labor in your personal household because you're just that guy.

And you had that example from your dad. But I think you're a bit of an anomaly. I think it's most men. In. I think we're still like, take your Eli's comment from earlier, how much work our show still has to do. Like, I think if we're talking to the average marriage, hetero marriage, the wife is probably doing all kinds of unseen labor that the husband is not pulling their weight on. And that's my main concern. I just worry about a couple concepts.

You know, when you talk about capacity for labor, I don't know how you define that, like, I think I think it exists, I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I'm saying that I think a lot of that is defined by circumstances, a lot of that as defined by, well, how much capacity for this labor do you have, well, are you a mother who's going to be shamed to death if this thing isn't done, well then shit, then maybe you do have more capacity for that, or are you a father who no one gives a shit if you don't pull your weight because you have no expectations on you, well you might have magically less you for labor, I don't think that concept does anything.

I think there is a real thing there. And I think in a good, balanced, communicative relationship, I think that can certainly be a factor. But I think I would worry about it just being an opportunity for more feet dragging and not pulling of weight. Same with the, and I don't think this was the point. I think you were making the opposite point here to make sure I have you right. Good way to avoid that is not the of division labor thing that you just said. I

0:33:45 Tom: Yeah, exactly.

0:34:41 Thomas: Think that agreeing with what you just said, because I think the thing is also loose. That's also not, you know, competence is defined by like, well, are you the one who's had to fucking do it because you'll get shamed if it's not done or not? All of a sudden you can get real competent and stuff. Stuff. Uh, I say that knowing that that's probably my biggest weakness.

Like I got, I always have to look out for things that it's like, fuck, I bet I could be doing more here, even though it's super unnatural for me, just constitutionally, you know, I got it. And I do, I find those things. I don't have any idea if I'm doing anywhere near enough, but I find those things that are uncomfortable for me.

And I'm like, you know, this is something I never in a million years, if I was still in my, I'm my dad mentality from, you mid 2000s or whatever, like I would never do. And I'd just be like, oh, let's just not do it. That would be my answer for like Eli's messy thing. That answer would have been that, but for like everything, you Know, like why don't, well, should we have friends over? Oh, but here's the thing. What if we just never, and

0:34:41 Eli: Yeah, that's just

0:34:42 Tom: Yeah. Yeah right.

0:35:40 Eli: Never did anything. Well,

0:35:42 Thomas: That's like, well that sucks. So like I've, I've have to, I have to find those things that feel uncomfortable and make sure I try to to do them as much as I can.

0:35:51 Eli: You bring up a really important point that I wanted to bring up as well, which is that looking from the external in at your relationship is a great way to fuck up your work balance, Right? You and your partner know what works for you. But one of the things that we see all the time is mom shaming or dad shaming, or sort of this postmodern, "Well, are you doing the right thing? Are you doing enough?" As opposed to knowing what works for you and your partner, right? And what makes the both of you happy, instead of sort of imagining these external forces and their judgments and what they think you should be doing.

And I will say, and again, Thomas, you touched on this, but this applies especially to women, right? I cannot tell you how many women I know in my life who have pushed themselves significantly past their own limits and abilities because, "Well, gosh, dad sure has brought the kids to school an awful lot this week. Like, well, what's mom, is mom getting a thing, are you babysitting?" Right?

Like, all all of that sort of imagined external judgment transforming the workload, as opposed to just saying, "This is what I can do," right, and knowing, knowing what your abilities are.

0:36:02 Thomas: Hmm.

0:37:05 Tom: Sort of like well-intentioned new generation of men have been sort of trained, I, or conditioned or taught to try to make things Equal, and I, I guess that was kind of my point, right, is that, but like, I think there's a hyper literalism to what is equal, which is really troubling. Right. Which is really problematic. And it's because, because it, it encourages scorekeeping and

0:37:13 Eli: Yeah. Absolutely. Yes.

0:37:24 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, it's like any corrective, you know, I think that's often what happens in, in these different, uh, yeah. Anything in society like this where you're like, well, shit, here's the problem. So something is wrong here. There's an inequity. Here's the corrective. Everybody let's make sure we're accounting for this. Let's make sure we don't fall into this. And then I think you're absolutely right, Tom, that then that can become a, all right, let's keep rigid track, make sure. And, and the reason is good. The reason is is because, well, there was an inequity here and someone wasn't carrying their weight. So yes, you would need to really account for what's happening. You would need try to make sure you're getting to 50 -50. That is what you would mean to do. But there does come a time like there could be relationships where if that's not really the issue, but you're still applying that kind of corrective and that those kind of solutions to a problem that's not there in your particular relationship, then yeah, that can go awry for sure.

0:38:20 Tom: Last thing I wanted to just touch on with the subject of division of labor is what I think is like the most important thing in any division of labour. And this includes labor that you involve your kids in around the house. And that is, the and they touch on this in the little video, that is the role of gratitude in dividing up labor. And I think way too often we are trained to see what people aren't doing, what they forget to do, what they don't do.

And what we respond to with people is all of the things that they thought, didn't take out the garbage, you know, oh, Donovan forgot to feed the cats, you know, whatever the, whatever things are. And we focus on all the things that aren't being done. But the reality is that, like, if you live alone, you do all, there's no division of labor, all those tasks are your tasks, so every time somebody does something in your household, you should be fucking grateful, expressly, And like positively reinforcing and seeing all the work that everybody in the household is doing and being genuinely and like openly day-to-day appreciative of that, and any miss on that is a fucking mistake, it's a missed, missed opportunity to love the people that are working to make things in your home better and to take a load off your plate. And I think when we divide up labor, we're sort of like, well, that's your work and you have to do it, and it's taken for granted. And the only time I'll ever see it is when you don't do it. And that is

0:39:20 Eli: Yeah.

0:39:53 Tom: So fucking common. It's common with kids get that shit all the time. I got that shit when I was a kid, I had a million chores to do. I never once got a thank you, but I'll tell you what, if I didn't do them, I got a fucking earful for not doing them

0:40:05 Eli: And Yes. Absolutely. And there's also the opposite side of that stick, which is the, like, I did a thing and now I demand fealty, that Group Thing Right. You Know, uh, Talking as dads, so, like, especially men, right? Sorry, I didn't hear a thank, thank you, dad. And it's just like, oh my God, like teaching, teaching gratitude. You know, when you see it, you know, you also see it a lot with really little kids, right? Can you say thank you? And, right, like, I know teaching kids they're pleased and thank yous is good, but sometimes it turns into this just fucking weird bow unto the emperor moment. And you're just like, oh, your kid's never going to want to do anything nice ever again. Oh my God, I can feel your kid turning into an asshole because of

0:40:06 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah

0:40:14 Tom: Oh yeah right yeah yeah right that's oh

0:40:50 Eli: Your weird mind game you're playing with a four-year-old. All gentlemen. I gotta tell you before we go. Sometimes, when Anna's mad, she hits me with her instruments. I just wish I'd known about her history of violins.

0:41:12 Tom: My god no

0:41:13 Thomas: That's a viola actually no

0:41:19 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Law'd Awful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

0:41:59 Eli: I'm about to say what I think you're thinking so you say what you think you'RE thinking it's even better absolutely

0:42:02 Thomas: Yeah