DOD74: Conditional vs Unconditional Love

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Tom: Welcome to Dear Old Dads, the podcast that loves you just for who you are, provided, of course, that you aren't a complete shithead. I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined, as always, by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:40 Thomas: Hello. I mean, I love Eli despite him being a shithead. It's not an either -or.

0:00:42 Eli: I was gonna say love me because of my faults, not in spite of them, about my soundboard Hey, podcast listener, podcast listener, I have a soundboard now.

0:00:49 Tom: It's the brand of shithead

0:00:54 Thomas: Is this where I should put in the entire conversation we just had about the thing? I'll just enter it in right now. Eli, you can transition us in with a sound.

0:01:07 Eli: So I I know that I was already ziggy in the scoot for 99.98 percent of you, and I just, I just picked, picked up that last .02. There you go, everybody. I have found... And hey, this is just the four-button soundboard. As I was telling the boys before the record, the moment I realized the fucking universal power a soundboard gave me, I ordered the nicest soundboard money can buy, a nine-buttons soundboard, so in the weeks to come, get ready for some real foley work on these podcasts.

0:01:02 Tom: Into evidence. Oh, god.

0:01:39 Tom: Jesus Christ, it's, it's just gonna hit the fart button. Yeah.

0:01:42 Thomas: You hit the let's do a good episode button?

0:01:49 Eli: See?

0:01:49 Thomas: It's over. It's the death of podcast now.

0:01:49 Eli: It works. It's always there. It's Always There. It's

0:01:53 Thomas: You just killed it.

0:01:53 Eli: The death

0:01:53 Tom: Thomas Smith. Can we just drop off this call and have a private call called Dear Old Dads too, just that's, you have to make some adjustments.

0:01:56 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, you

0:01:54 Eli: Of all the podcasts I'm on oh you guys are gonna fire me there, they are, oh, they love it, they love the soundboard, oh please, no, you, you audience, this is the whole episode.

0:02:04 Thomas: Can at least grab a laugh track so that it like kind of helps, you know, I love

0:02:20 Eli: This is that

0:02:14 Tom: Oh god, oh, this is Is

0:02:20 Thomas: Welcome to the year 2011. Eli, you finally caught up to do that. We all most other people already went through this phase like 20 years ago of like you can put sounds on it. It's like, yeah, man, technology is pretty old.

0:02:23 Tom: Nobody tell

0:02:29 Eli: That's true, yeah, I

0:02:33 Tom: Eli, that you can set a ringtone for people on their phone. It's he's going to.

0:02:35 Eli: Was gonna say 2040, Charlie Bit My Finger, get ready, everybody, it's gonna be my new new obsession. But you know the only thing worse than Eli Bosnick with a soundboard on your podcast? Why? It's the auto ads. Yes, these dynamically inserted, logarithmically planned ads don't have anything to do with you, so you kind of wonder who they're for. But they're on your podcast anyway, and if you'd like them to not be on your podcast, head on over to patreon.com/dearolddads. You'll get a commercial-free version of every show, but also every single episode except for that one that Tom didn't come to is extended with a special parenting story, so you get a parenting story at the end of the show. Uh, we currently offering a patron level where we take away my soundboard, no, no, we are not. Um, but you know what let's let's see.

0:02:42 Thomas: Uh,

0:03:16 Tom: No, no.

0:03:28 Tom: I feel like this is this.

0:03:25 Thomas: No, but Eli already broke it. So what are the odds of his being able to keep this hooked up properly?

0:03:33 Tom: This is his Charlton Heston moment. This is it this

0:03:39 Thomas: Look, we'll put listeners put up with it for, you know, maybe half an episode. I'm sure he'll break it before then.

0:03:30 Eli: Exactly. Thank

0:03:44 Tom: Is A cold dead hands moment for Eli Bosnick, and I fucking feel you right now, Eli.

0:03:49 Eli: You Tom, speaking of cold and dead, Tom, tell us how you feel about unconditional love.

0:03:59 Tom: Well, so I was advised ahead of time that this was going to be another episode where Tom sounds like a crazy person, which is it just makes me just that that alone makes me so happy that I'm doing this show, so I can get out to more and more people, I guess, the depth of my fucking uh insanity and and idiosyncrasy. But yeah, I don't believe that there is such a thing as unconditional love. And I think that if there were such a things as unconditional of, it would be an inherently bad thing. I don't think that it could possibly be justifiably good or decent to feel that way. I think it's maybe a little different. Not maybe. I think it's different for sure when your kids are very, very little, because they don't have any agency at all. So absent agency, they can't make decisions that really have any kind of like moral place in the world.

0:04:50 Thomas: That's slightly make you not Like them anymore. More I would just like to point out logically speaking, uh, think that if you were to say unconditional love could arise at any moment, then therefore it would have to be permanent, right? Because, like, if it changed, that would be a condition that changed. You know what I mean? Like, if you

0:04:52 Eli: Oh,

0:04:53 Tom: Yeah, that they don't think.

0:05:06 Tom: Yeah, no, that's that's fair. So then so then even more, I don't believe in unconditional love because that's it. That's insane. I think I think it would be absolutely patently insane to love anyone, whether it's a kid or a spouse or a parent unconditionally. The

0:05:09 Thomas: Coming in

0:05:10 Eli: No,

0:05:19 Thomas: Strong yeah What if your baby sucks? Yeah, yeah.

0:05:23 Tom: Like the idea that you can't imagine a conditon where your child could behave in ways that would cause you not to love them, I don't understand that at all.

0:05:33 Thomas: This actually came up because I, so I used to sort of, I wouldn't say agree with Tom, because I don't want to, you know, go that far on this, no, but it's, uh, that I came across, you, years and years ago, the idea of, like, hey, actually, conditional love is the better one that you would want, especially talking about in, like, a, you know, a partner situation. And I think that's certainly true. Like, I think it makes sense that you want, on both sides of it, like, you want to feel like your partner, I would think you'd want to feels, like your partner loves you for some reason, you like, oh, you, you act the way you are toward them, what you do, what you

0:05:40 Eli: Yeah, be careful, come on, your soundboard

0:06:11 Thomas: All, all condition of not having a fucking soundboard that one was okay

0:06:11 Eli: I There it is. That was Tom. That one was Tom That one Was Tom. I'm getting a different Snare drum so that he can't fucking frame Me for moments

0:06:19 Thomas: Yeah yeah I'll see oh my God, we've, the show's over, but anyway, uh, yeah, so I think that that makes sense in a partner context, like you would want unconditional love. I don't think that two adults who meet each other as adults should, or really do, end up in unconditional, unconditional love, that, you know, if your partner, you wake up and your partner is a serial killer, like, yeah, I mean, I think you're probably going to fall out of love, or if they get a soundboard, one of the, you know, either, either of those things, but,

0:06:55 Tom: Which is worse, can you tell me which is worst because I don't t know

0:06:57 Eli: Equally bad Things that a person could do In a relationship. I would love if my wife had a soundboard, honestly, and I think it would be a real tension vent in our relationship. If she could do sad trombone the 97th time I start to depression monologue while she's trying to fall asleep, I really, I think it would be great for our marriage.

0:07:18 Thomas: But Oh man. I

0:07:18 Tom: That would be even better in bed, you know, like just, like, uh, you know, particularly good performance gets the clappy guys, you know, maybe a sad trombone once in a while, you know, as we age, it happens, right?

0:07:25 Eli: Yeah sure

0:07:28 Thomas: Think You know, like how musicians nowadays, everything's all kind of fucking, you go to a big show, there's backing tracks, there's all that stuff, maybe in the, in the bedroom situation, maybe you add a little backing track to help you out, you know, all of a sudden you're like, what is there someone else here? No, we're just, we're just enjoying ourselves that much, baby, I know it sounds like

0:07:28 Eli: Oh yeah yeah

0:07:40 Tom: Yeah going on it's just every time my pants come off, like the, the first opening beats of Eye of the Tiger start playing that's, uh, I

0:07:51 Eli: Or you get like a, I was

0:07:54 Thomas: I was first, you play like a, like, it, uh anyway, so, no, the very serious topic, um, brought this up at the, I think in the, I probably, it, I edited it out so people didn't hear it, uh, because it was just me mentioning we should talk about this in the last episode. I, I realized it was because of my interactions with Phoebe that I realized, like, oh wait, I do love these kids unconditionally.

And I think that maybe Tom's, you know, difference is that I, and, and I do agree, there's obviously there's different kind of peaks of emotion you feel with with small children, like, totally, totally grant that, and it may be that that I feel, you know, differently or something when they're older. But I just think there's a difference between, like, loving someone and being super happy with everything they do. Like, those don't necessarily have to be the same thing.

You know, like someone could certainly do something where you're like, boy, that fucking, don't like that. But like, nevertheless, of course, I still love this person. And what, guess, the point I want to make with the kids, Tom, is it's kind of of like the classic free will determinism argument, because I realized with Phoebe, I was thinking about kind of the issues that she's having, some of the issue she's having.

And I just was thinking about, like, I being able to bear witness to someone growing up, like going from nothing, no consciousness, to a person. I mean, it really is, that the stuff we talk about with with free, free will debates, it really is, either I fucked her over with my genetics or something I did, or Lydia, something she did, or someone else might fuck her over at some point, and like, if she turns out in a way that I just, you know, didn't like or something, and being on the other end of that and being like, well, yeah, none of those things would be her fault, and I just love this child forever and ever in my heart for all time, so like, I can't see ever, it's like with other, other people, it's hard.

It's hard to do that where we're like, well, this person fucking sucked and they did a shitty thing, or all constantly shitty things, but, you know, determinism, so fucking can't really blame them. Like, I do that to some degree, honestly, but it doesn't, you don't really internalize it that much in everyday life. You know what I mean? Like, but with my kids, it's like, oh no, I basically a hundred percent take that on. I love them forever, no matter what. And if something happens and they turn out shitty, I will still love them. It's just like, damn, either I fucked up or they got unlucky, you

0:10:19 Tom: I guess, like, I don't take that same hard deterministic stance, so maybe that's just kind of because determinism for me might be true, but it doesn't have a whole lot of, to me, like, utility, it doesn't function in a way that that that interests me over much. So, for example, it's very easy for me not to love Donald Trump, right? All the same things are true about Phoebe.

0:10:39 Thomas: Well you never did to begin with though

0:10:43 Tom: Yeah, but I don't like discontinuation of love is not like, why would I, why Would I hold Trump accountable and not hold Finn accountable? I'm going to hold somebody accountable, I have to take, I, like

0:10:52 Thomas: Let's indict thin damn it fuck hold on, let's do you have any of those records, does he have any secret documents well

0:10:58 Eli: Gonna say he

0:11:00 Tom: And that's, that's my problem with determinism, is I have, have to decide, like, okay, it's probably true, but it has no functional moral utility that interests me, so, because it basically means like, all right, well then nobody's really ultimately to be held accountable, or I have to set this aside But

0:11:15 Thomas: Let's not get into that whole debate, I'll just signpost that I don't think it believes nobody should be held accountable, I disagree with that, but I do agree that it changes the view of yeah, good, I

0:11:23 Tom: But You're, you're Yeah but you're, you're com, you're, you're thing with Phoebe is that if Phoebee turned out in some way that was disenchanting to you, to say the least, that you would have to say, all right, that was either genetics or experience, and so, like, like, why would that make me stop feeling this way for her? And so you are kind of addressing that. Setting aside accountability.

0:11:46 Thomas: She killed somebody, I would still be, be like, I will love you while you're in prison, and once someone goes to prison, you don't love the sooner

0:11:51 Tom: Okay, so that's where we disagree. Yeah, I think if my kids turn out, yeah,

0:11:55 Eli: Would be totally fine with his kids killing someone so

0:11:56 Tom: No. Yeah, yeah. I think that there are things you can do. Yeah, 100%. If my kids turned out to be bad people, then I would not love them. I'll just say that. Like, if they turn out to me, now I think that they're unlikely to turn out to be bad people, fingers fucking crossed, but like, it's possible, right? Like, it's, it's impossible, and if they turn outto be just people that I don't like, then I, I can, I can imagine a world where I'd be like, yeah, I don't love that person, and I would feel comfortable with that, like, I would feels very comfortable with them

0:11:59 Thomas: The better if he hid those documents, yeah, yeah

0:12:29 Eli: That is an interesting differentiation for me, right, that happens in this conversation. And I think the the question that's at the core of it, from which the sort of branches can grow that I'm interested in both your guys's answer on, is like, what do we mean when we say love, right? Do we means, like, having a fondness for someone, wanting someone to be well?

Do we mean a specific, right, emotion that we feel, that like, that recognition of the other, um, that so often gets you equated with love? Like, I, I guess the core definition of what it means to love someone would be important for me to answer this question. And the differentiation you just made, Tom, that I'm really interested in is the difference between if my kids turned out to be bad people, right?

Like serial rapists, I wouldn't love them, versus what if your kids just turn out to be people that you don't particularly care for, right? Like, nothing against them. They're just like people who you don't have a lot in common with, and they're not particularly interesting to you. Like, would you consider that to be falling out of love with them? And is that similarly acceptable?

0:13:35 Tom: Is interesting. We'll set that aside. Like, my definition, I know not everybody listened to it, but in February, I did a series, readings from the blog. I focused a lot on romantic love. One of the things that I addressed in there is that I think love is a feeling second, and it's a series of actions first. I think love is a verb, right? I don't think it's different for our kids than it is our romantic partners.

I think what changes are the actions that associate and the verbs that are sort of like concomitant with that feeling. So I think the feeling of love is, again, like, I don't think it's much without the actions associated with love. So when I think about my, my kids, if they turned out to be like the first example, if they turned to be just genuinely bad people, I would stop behaving in loving ways. I would stop being supportive. I would stop communicative.

I stop being all of those loving things, for sure. If they turned, like, if they turn out to be a fucking serial rapist, I'm not going to visit you in jail. I'm supporting you. I'm hiding the evidence for you. I'm putting you up on my blog. I taking your pictures down in my house, right? Like, you're a fucking shithead.

And like, my, my moral stance against serial rapists doesn't change because I loved someone once, whether they're my kid or my best friend or a coworker or a stranger. I would be very, very comfortable in that space. The second question is a little different. 2nd question is, what if they turn out to be be people I just didn't particularly like? It's really hard to stay in love with people you don't like.

And I wouldn't blame somebody for distance becoming just part of their world with someone if they just didn't like one another. My brother is somebody that, like, he's not a bad guy. My brother is a perfectly decent person. Like, his, his family, he's not of bad moral judgment, I just don't like him. I just don't. If I met him tomorrow and he wasn't my brother, yeah, that, because I don't, I'm not, I'm not a romantic about my brother. If I met him tommorrow and he wasn't my brother, he would not be somebody I called back. He just isn't. And I, I don't

0:15:43 Thomas: No.

0:15:44 Tom: Think there's anything wrong with that. That's just true.

0:15:45 Thomas: But I so yeah, but that also is important, the fact that you know, like, if you, if, okay, I think parental love, in my, my opinion, is a different story than this other stuff. I really think it is. And I, I agnostic as to whether it always stays that way. Like, it might absolutely change.

Maybe it changes when they're older, maybe it changes into a different kind of love, but there's something about the fact that like, I, uh, I'm not quite putting it into words, but when you see the daily struggle of a kid trying to go about the world and basically wanting certain things, wanting to essentially do the right thing, but being limited by brain, their growth, things talked about last week, I mean, parts of their brain that haven't developed yet, you know, different things like that.

Like, to the kids are like my, my responsibility. You know what I mean? And maybe you get to an age where it's like, okay, you don't feel that anymore. I'm entirely open to that possibly being the case. But I also think there's an interesting component of this, to, is how do you define what a person is? By the time we're done with this, we're not going to know what anything is. We'll only know Soundboard. There'll be one, you know, it's like Descartes, he said, I Soundboard, therefore, and that'll be the only philosophical truth we have will be Soundboard.

But, for example, let me bring this up. If your partner, both of you and me, if your partner were to get fucking Alzheimer's or something and becomes effectively not your partner anymore, you know, because that's fucking depressing, but that happens. I mean, they essentially lose their mind. And that's a long time process, maybe, or it can be shorter. But, like, let's say it's a gradual process. To me, it's not like, oh, well, now I don't love them anymore.

It's more like, no, they're not really, that's do love Lydia forever. It's just, you person is kind of gone more, you know? And I think that you, possible that, could you look at things the same way for your children? I mean, if something happens, you know, to change your child significant, maybe they have a traumatic brain injury, by the way, like the reasons people people commit

0:15:46 Tom: Mhm. Yeah right.

0:17:46 Thomas: Awful crimes are hard for us to confront, the fact that, like, it's usually something that either fucking society fucked him over or they were born with some horrible thing going on, or, you know, like, It mean, I love people who I don't know who committed crimes. It means, if I started with, this is my precious baby, who's my responsibility, who I brought into the world, who I've seen all the fucking inputs of, to their brain up to this point, basically, I love them forever.

And if something happened, or whatever they did, if they did something terrible, I would still love them while fully wanting them to make whatever, to have whatever responsibility and consequences they should have for whatever they did. Relationship to them, for me, really allows me to like, actually feel like I truly believe that classical, that philosophical thing of like, oh, nothing's really anybody's fault. Yeah, I agree with you, Tom, that we don't really feel that way day to day, and we shouldn't.

Like, like, when it comes to my kids, I just, the other day I was like, oh yeah, if something happens, cause look, we have, you know, mental, mental health challenges in my family, I can sort of like, least relate to the idea of like someone having, you some severe problems and turning into someone that maybe I don't like. And it wouldn't be their fault, you now?

0:17:46 Tom: Yeah.

0:18:59 Eli: It's really want to come back to that idea of responsibility, because I think that might be um, really good explanation. I do, I am very interested though, Tom, in your answer to that Alzheimer's question, because I imagine, knowing you as I do, that your answer is not the same as mine and Thomas's. I, in my head, if Hailey became demented, you would be like, I will love you until the moon is no longer in the sky.

0:19:02 Tom: Me too I

0:19:24 Eli: You wouldn't just be like, oh, this one's broken.

0:19:24 Tom: I do like that, that's, that's how I sound. I, what I appreciate most about this is, is the uh, pitch perfect impressions that

0:19:31 Thomas: He was just playing you from the soundboard. That was, yeah.

0:19:34 Eli: That just, yeah, that was a clip of oop, this one is broken. It's one of my many sounds

0:19:34 Thomas: He just played a clip, Tom.

0:19:36 Tom: It was it was excellent It was excellent, yeah. I will say this, I would hope that I would, um, to be behave and again, going back to how I think it's important, you know, to go back to how we define what love, what is right. So if Haley had Alzheimer's, I hope that I would continue to perform all of the same verbs of love that I perform now, right?

Hope that I could have the character to do that and think that if I didn't do that, then shame on me for not doing that, for a real shame on me. I would be, very I would feel a deep sense of of failure as a person for not doing that. And I think responsibility is super fucking important, right?

So I, I wrote down the same thing, I think responsibility, like when we're adults and we stand in front of somebody and we make a commitment to somebody, we sort of old tried and true vows, which are trite as fuck, but they're, they're not terrible, actually, like is in sickness and in health for a reason. Would hope that that's something, at least in the back of our minds, that that my wife and I have committed to, even though we didn't use that terminology.

I will say this, though, doesn't work for me in the reverse. And I've thought about this quite a bit, if I got Alzheimer's, I would help that my life would continue to take care of me. I certainly continue to take care of her. If she started to feel differently about me and just took care of me, and then my mind is gone and she went off and fell in love with someone else, I wouldn't blame her for it, I absolutely would not blame her for

0:21:05 Thomas: Yeah.

0:21:06 Tom: All the reasons that you guys are imagining, I would hope she wouldn't of me, though.

0:21:07 Thomas: But I was making there, just to make sure I'm understood, is I think the sentence of "but she always loves Tom" would still be true, it's just Tom is not the same, you know, like Tom would be significantly different, you know, in the same way, like if I were to die tomorrow, it's like, yeah, I would hope Lydia would essentially always love me in she felt this way about me as I am now, you know, you know what I mean, like you, you're not like, oh, well, now that he's a corpse, like, I don't, I'll be honest, I'm not as big a fan, don't love him as I still try, but it just, you know, not the same, so I know that's kind of what the sense I meant, that like that if you changed to a certain point I feel like that still counts as you love, you know, you love Hayley or Hayley loves you, it's just that something, you know, took your mind away essentially, but there are gradations to that that I think are interesting, you know, and and there, I could imagine, you forbid, my kids were ever to do something awful, I will always love them, but love doesn't mean you support everything they do, even if it's wrong.

Like, love, I think it's quite the opposite. I think love involves not supporting people doing shitty things, you know what I mean? And, like, supporting them actually having consequences that are, are appropriate, and making, you know, recompense or whatever. And but I could imagine if it's something significantly bad, like there's the classic case in this discussion that gets brought up a lot about that Texas sniper guy. Remember that?

And believe he wrote down or wanted people to, like, look at his brain after he died because he was like, I think something's fucking going on, like this doesn't make any sense.

0:21:43 Tom: Right. Right. Right,

0:22:43 Thomas: He was a normal guy. And then he killed a bunch of people and sure Sure enough, they did. And he had some fucking, I don't know what it was, a tumor or whatever, something growing in a part of his brain that like much explained the rapid change and just taking a situation, I dunno, something like that, or, or something sort of equivalent to that, which is, I know maybe a major psychiatric break from reality or something where it's like, essentially this happened because of something happening to the brain. Train, I could see saying like, well, I don't, it's not that I love the person, including the murder tumor. You know, it sounds like I'm like, yes, that murder tumor is now part of you. And I love it. It's like, no, I love The Person You Would Have Been, Should Have Been or Were. And this is something that I can't ultimately, I Don't Like Blame You For It Because It Was Out of Your Control kind of thing. Does that make sense?

0:22:44 Tom: Right.

0:23:33 Tom: It does. I guess, like, there, I, are situations where I can see, and I don't even have to, like, I guess maybe I am the monster here, here, but I my kids.

0:23:40 Thomas: I Don'T Think You're The Monster. The soundboard is the monster. Let's all be.

0:23:45 Eli: The soundboard is the monster that

0:23:49 Tom: Kids were little and I had vastly more responsibility for them, no act, they had no agency, there was nothing I could eat. I couldn't even imagine how I could not love these little people. Absolutely. I'm in a different place as my kids have gotten older, and I think about myself and I think about my dad, and I don't have, like, I loved my dad unconditionally when I was a little kid, or at least I felt like I did, and I loved, I'll give you an example, I loved my mom when I was a little kid, right?

0:24:19 Thomas: Now you're just fucking making shit up. No, I'm just kidding.

0:24:21 Eli: No,

0:24:22 Tom: No, No, I did, I love my mom so much, but I've come to understand things about her that have made me say, like, I don't think this is a good person. I don't like her, and I can't square loving loving someone I don't like. There's no one else in my life, no one that I love that I don't like, no. And then I think, like, there has to be, even for your kids, at least for me, there is a, why that we love them in the beginning. That why is deeply rooted in the amount of responsibility we have for them.

But as they get older, we have less and less and less and less, and those responsibilities sort of threads become more Tenuous, and they don't hold the same way. It would be horrifying to conditionally love a seven-year-old. That would be a disgusting place to find yourself in. But I can absolutely say, like, yeah, I can imagine a world where I can, and I don't want to sound like an asshole, but I don't think this would ever, ever happen, right? I don't think this would happen to me and my kids, but could I imagine being kind of emotionally indifferent? Yeah, I can.

Like, if my kids grew up and just became people that, like, I just couldn't find a way to connect with, I wouldn't try to pretend that I had this great deep well of unfucking alloyed love for them, despite who they were. I just don't know that I would. And I, and if I didn't, I'll be okay with that. I don't want to fake it, even for my kids, you know what I mean? That I don't think that's a good thing to do. And I don't think you're suggesting that either.

0:24:59 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:25:57 Eli: I Am out for clarity, I, if my kid becomes a model train guy, I'm gonna be like, fuck yes, son, model, there's no, and then it's interesting because I, I love, again, as always, we often represent a spectrum, which is that Tom has this sort of very hard sort of, you know, about the connections with the people in the moment, love is a verb approach, and then Thomas is somewhere in the middle with this, like, you know, it's, it's not about avoiding responsibility, but you can sort of see a larger picture and still have love for people, that I hope you speak on more, and then I'm just like, no, I mean, look, if he serial killed people with his soundboard, they Probably did something to deserve it, so I'm on team soundboard, the soundboard killer of the late Missoula, like, let's Figure Out what Max's story is, and before we go blaming him for killing all those people with a soundboard. Interesting.

0:25:57 Tom: Yeah.

0:26:32 Thomas: Yeah.

0:26:38 Tom: No, that's

0:26:48 Thomas: Curious how would you feel, just, I know these hypotheticals are maybe somewhat distressing, but if you Are the parent of that sniper guy Like You think about that, like, let's say that happens one day, and pretend, you know, before that happens that you have a great relationship, you love them to death, they're amazing, and then this, this kind of happens. They distance and you're like, I don't know what's going on. And then it turns out that, and they do something horrible, and there is an explanation, which is they had a massive fucking growth on their brain impinging on the part of it, they would need to not, you know, mass kill people, uh, to just speak loosely. How would you feel about that?

0:26:55 Tom: Okay. Yeah, if, had a brain tumor or something, just like in that, in that circumstance, I would not hold, I just like, I don't know that Should I hold that person morally accountable? I wouldn't hold my kid morally accountable.

0:27:26 Thomas: Yeah. Like, how would you think about that yet?

0:27:35 Thomas: No, I'm talking about the love component. Like, do you, would you be like, well, I could never love them. They killed people. Or would you be like, I love the person that they were before this happened, essentially?

0:27:40 Tom: No, of course not. Yeah, I yeah, I would still love them. Yeah, that doesn't strike me as difficult. I would still love them because they didn't do anything that, though they killed people, like this circumstance where that's the sniper. They had the fucking brain tumor that did it, like I would be like, oh shit, like I wouldn't hold my kid accountable, wouldn't change my, I'd be like that sucks that he had a brain tumor and that that's why people died but like I don't think that that, now if there was no discernible brain, like if there's no brain tumor, it's different if

0:28:06 Eli: Invisible

0:28:10 Thomas: Well, think that there's almost no such thing as no brain tumor. Like, I don't see what what the difference like I can't really fathom, in the same setting, everything equally, you, to where like this, you, you have this good relationship and, and, you, you know, you basically imagine the best possible relationship absent something incredibly catastrophic happening. I just don't really think that means people just kill people all of a sudden. And the reason I say that is, I, that's important because there are a lot of circumstances in life, a lot of genetics, a lot of environmental circumstances.

They're essentially that same brain tumor, but like a slower process or a harder to pin down process, process. Yeah. And it's like, for me, I realized the other day, just, just with my kids, and this is specific again to parental love. I, if anything like that ever happened, I feel like I would be, I to them every day, like let's say, and they were still alive or whatever, something, something like that happened.

We won't go the brain tumor route, cause I feel like we kind of agree on that one, but something sort of like that, but less apparent, you know, a break from reality, something, you know, whatever it is, I feel like I would transition into a, yeah, I'm going to talk to you in prison as much as I can. And I want to understand what the fuck happened. And it feels like they are my responsibility in a way that's like, not going to not love them.

Something happened and I would like to know what it is. But know what I mean? I don't know if that makes sense, but it's just, just a different thing than any other kind of love I've really experienced

0:28:16 Tom: See and that's where we disagree, yeah well Yeah.

0:29:48 Thomas: No.

0:29:48 Tom: And I say my kid became ideologically radicalized, um, went down, you know, an ideological rabbit hole of, you know, escalating right wing ideologies and then became, you, or, or I don't even have to go to all the way to violence. I'll just be honest. I don'T have to Go like, let's say, let'S say they, let'S Say they went down an ideological right wing rabbit hole and they became a person who espoused views that I find immorally abhorrent.

0:30:05 Thomas: Yeah. That's already enough Yeah. Yeah.

0:30:19 Tom: I would have an impossible time loving that person.

0:30:19 Thomas: Well, Here's what that means to me. Here's, without me, and, and I, I want to fully take on board, Tom, it's possible that like you're totally right and as they grow old, it might be that this, this kind of feeling does go away. I'm fully open to that possibility, um, for the, the time being, assuming it, it of doesn't, my, my definition of how that love would work is if this were anyone on the street or anyone that, you know, Eli and I have debated on the fucking podcast that we, you have people we hate, I just would not give a shit. Like I, I'm not giving them the time of day. I'm hanging up on them. I's not doing a thing.

If it's my kid and they fell into that thing, I would fucking debate, me, bro. Every day. I'd be like, as much energy as I had for it, I'd be like, why is this happening, like I would try forever to try to change them. I doesn't, I think the key distinction is with Eli, I'm not, I think Eli, and it might be just jokes, but Eli tends to be like, you be at the next January 20th with his kid if that happens or whatever, you know, but it's like for me that's not like, love doesn't mean unconditionally supporting everything they do and every idea they have, even if it's terrible, it means truly caring enough to never give up on them. That's what it means to me.

0:30:49 Eli: See perfect timing

0:31:12 Tom: Yeah. Yeah.

0:31:35 Tom: And I, I guess I want to discount my own harder heart than yours, right? I, I'll just say like I probably just have a harder, meaner heart than you because I can, I, and maybe that's just that, maybe that's the distinction right, and like if that's just the distinction then I just want to own it and label it, because yeah, don't feel like I have a, and I guess this is probably another distinction between us, I don't feel a sense of lifelong obligation to my kids. If they turn out to be assholes, period.

0:31:35 Eli: Yeah. Yeah.

0:32:08 Thomas: Yeah, I don't know. And maybe that'll change for me when, when my kids are assholes and they're older. I don'T know, but

0:32:13 Eli: Grow to see them as people more, does that change right Because now they're such extensions of us, because our kids are so young, as they truly become sort of themselves, does that, that feeling not fade, but does that feeling transform into, this is a separate person and I have very separate, very different feelings from myself, um, this person, now I'm interested, and not to psychoanalyze you, Tom.

0:32:16 Thomas: Mm -hmm. Yeah.

0:32:36 Tom: Yeah.

0:32:36 Eli: Um, what else is this podcast for if not to, if not to give Tom the psychoanalyst I mean

0:32:42 Thomas: Yeah .

0:32:41 Tom: I do like what I find myself on the opposite side from both of you. Cause then it's like deflecting from both sides, you know, it's exciting. So yeah.

0:32:44 Thomas: .

0:32:50 Eli: Tom, if you'll look at the calendar, every four episodes I'm the crazy one, every two episodes you're the crazy one

0:32:54 Thomas: . Yeah. I've

0:32:55 Tom: That still leaves three out of four for me.

0:32:56 Eli: Yeah. Well, no, every 10 episodes Thomas takes one, yeah, there it is Right. There.

0:33:03 Thomas: Taken a few.

0:33:03 Eli: Yeah. What do we got him up in September he's gonna, I don't need to remember anyone's birthday is the subject we've got there

0:33:10 Tom: Yeah.

0:33:03 Thomas: Yeah uh, yeah, I can do that now if you want. Yeah.

0:33:12 Eli: Uh no, not to, but I, I often wonder, because, you know, we talk around your mom quite a bit on the show, or we talk about your mom quite a a bit on the show, but I wonder if part of the basis for that, like I don't necessarily feel that locked in commitment, is the fact that, like, in the point of your life when you are supposed to have that foundational unconditional love, you didn't get it for whatever reason, your mom was going through, right, her illness, her addiction, right, seems like she had a lot going on, but whatever it is, she did not fill in that slot for baby Tom of unconditional love. And so I, I think that may be, again, not to sort of play doctor here, but I think maybe that's a part of why that doesn't necessarily clicked for you, is because it wasn't the conditions you grew up in, right, there just wasn't unconditional, unconditional love was not being handed out, so why would you grow up to think that that was something people are entitled to.

0:34:13 Tom: Yikes. Yeah, maybe, maybe that is. I mean, I've never thought about that in that sense before. I just said yikes because I don't like the idea of feeling entitled to someone else's feelings. Like, I don't think we're entitled to SOMEONE'S love. Like I don't I don't Wake up feeling like I'm entitled to anyone's love and affection or support at all. I, I do believe, we talked about this on the show, I do believe that, like, and you can laugh and that's fine, but I do believe that, like, love is something you earn from people.

0:34:26 Thomas: Yeah, I agree with that.

0:34:44 Eli: Sure.

0:34:45 Tom: It's not something you earn from your parents when you're a little kid, but think that, like, I think about my relationship with my dad, I have a great relationship with my dad, I call my dad regularly, we we talk we seem you know I love my dad I love him very much I I know for a certainty that that he loves and appreciates me but I also like if my dad went down some right-wing youtube rabbit hole and he was just became a different person I wouldn't love him anymore

0:35:15 Eli: See, now that's really, and I was going to bring that up, but I wanted to give you guys the chance to speak. Something that I've been thinking about while we've been having this conversation is what a lot of our listeners are going through, have gone through, maybe even will go through, which is this sort of Banshees of Inishman situation, right? Which is when parents go down these right-wing rabbit holes, when parents change as they get older.

One of the really common symptoms of Alzheimer's is like meanness, and almost nobody knows that until their parents are way too old and relationships are way to damaged. But like, uh, it's, it's something that stroke victims deal with a lot, is they get like super quote unquote grumpy because the brain has fundamentally changed after that situation. And so, one of the things that I'm sort of thinking about as we examine this is like the, the other side of that coin, right?

Which is, and you know, uh, of Innishman, for those who haven't seen his movie, Martin McDonough wrote, came out last year, uh, really, really good movie, very well acted, but it has a very dark view of that philosophy, right, which isthat the Colin Farrell character, um, this sort of idealized optimistic, you love the people you love no matter what, no no matter what they do, no matter who they are, even when it hurts you, even when it hurts them, and we sort of watch him go through this sort of magical realism expression of this, you know, to the point where, like, at one point, he won't leave the friend alone.

It's about him trying to love his best friend, even though his best friend doesn't love him anymore, and at one moment, he wants to leave him alone, so the friend threatens to start cutting off fingers and throwing them at his door, and then, of course, you know—not to spoil the movie—but then ends up doing major damage to Colin, and I think McDonagh's, he's also talking about Ireland in a lot of ways, but I also think he's talking about the parent-child relationship, and I, I think McDonough's very pessimistic philosophy that we're supposed to take away from that film is that you do need to let go, in that, that this optimistic idealized version that we can always, always love or save the people we care about, um, is just a way for us to get hurt, um, I, but I

0:36:06 Thomas: Oh yeah. Oh,

0:36:55 Tom: Yeah

0:37:27 Eli: Also think it's an incredibly

0:37:27 Thomas: I have so many thoughts on that.

0:37:28 Eli: Yeah

0:37:29 Tom: I believe that 100 I'm right on that train

0:37:29 Eli: Go speak speak on that don't I'm

0:37:31 Thomas: Well, so I, I think this really comes, Oh no, go ahead. Sorry, Eli.

0:37:32 Eli: Just gonna talk more about a fucking no I said, I speak on the, I'm just gonna talk about the McDonough movie, I'm just gonna read the

0:37:38 Thomas: He's just gonna, so act one, we see, uh, it just starts going through. Um, so, So I think that the key – oh, is it A24? Oh, okay.

0:37:46 Eli: A24 book not, but they, they uh

0:37:50 Thomas: I got you. I think the key distinction there that I really want to drive home is what loving actually means is a different thing. Top things I would want to say in response to that are I think this relationship goes one way. I do not believe you have anything like the same obligation toward your parents. Like you were plopped into the existence and you didn't choose them in any way. Your parents or, you know, or me, I'll just speak for me. We chose to have these kids.

We take on board. We chose the love them. They're our responsibility there. You know, like I think this is a very specific to for me, in my mind, this is very specifically a parent child thing. I And also think that the kind of love that's being depicted in that movie, I do think is is a codependence that's not healthy. I think that, again, I would just love to drive home. Home, they often, you know, there'll be a, you'll see things online or whatever.

People joke that like, who's that friend that you'd help them bury a body because you love them so much. And it's like, well, nobody, I wouldn't do, you Know, like, why would I help bury a body that doesn't, why is that something I would ever do now? I mean, I'm listening to Matt. Tell me who it is. Eli, like who did you kill? I'll

0:37:50 Eli: Thank

0:39:00 Thomas: Listen. I'll hear, I'll, I 'LL hear it. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, you know, like 99% probably not helping you, but like Like I'll, I'll at least hear your side, but no, the point is, I don't think loving someone means that I think loving Someone means, um, you can love someone consistent with not only your fucking ethical responsibilities as a human, but with what's best for them and you like, you can still like, and it may be that if, if, you have any sort of psychological issues as a result of this, or you have damage or you have trauma, it may be that you can't be around the person, um, because it's just too unhealthy.

And, you know, I could see that, believe me, I can definitely relate to that. I get how that works, but I think specifically with my, talking about a parent child relationship, I think that's, that's probably less likely in that direction that like, I, you know, if, if a, if I felt like a child was so like bad for my mental health to be around, I think the odds are lower that the relationship would go that way. I think it goes the other way.

You know what I mean? So the point is, I think, it's about still doing what's best for them. And what's for them is not, you supporting the things they do, if that makes sense.

0:39:01 Eli: You and

0:40:10 Tom: But then you're just really talking about managing your internal sense of feelings right

0:40:16 Thomas: No, I'm also still talking about trying to help them in a way that makes sense. Like, like the analogy of, I would debate the right winger forever if it's my kid, I would try every day, but like I'm not gonna fucking do any, like, I don't give a shit about the people Eli and I debated, I would not, it's not worth it to even try once anymore on those people, you know

0:40:26 Tom: Yeah yeah

0:40:36 Eli: Well tell me about it so

0:40:36 Tom: But but but it makes but but I but I just want to I just wanted to draw a distinction because I think you're you've got a distinction that I don't hold right and that it's the real This is the this is the place where we differ is that I would try with my kids probably more than I would try with you. Right. Like if you as my friend, if you started going down some crazy like so throw strangers out like we never loved strangers. They don't matter. But like, let's say, you know, like let's say it's my wife, you Know, who I love deeply. Let's say Haley starts going down some right wing rabbit hole and becoming a person. I don't like it. I would fight. I I would fight very hard to pull her back from the brink of that. And if I lost that fight, we would have to part ways.

0:41:21 Tom: I think the same thing is true of my kids. Would not just keep fighting a fight just to my own detriment, right? At some point, the only one eating shit is you. You're not making any progress, and you're just hurting yourself, and there's really kind of no reason to do it. It. So at that point, what love is, is no longer a series of actions. It's an internal feeling.

0:41:20 Thomas: Yeah, yeah I I think that last part is not quite, uh, I wouldn't agree with that last part, but well

0:41:48 Tom: I distanced myself? So if I go through the whole process, right? Like I go Through the process, I fight like hell. The difference between you and I is you would just keep fighting forever. That's what you're saying is you just keep Fighting forever.

0:41:56 Thomas: I, I I put in there that you have to fight consistent with what you know, like your, your mental health, and what, either limits, it's not like I don't sleep or something, like, you know, like there are limits to what you can, you can do. And I guess you're saying if you get, yeah, if you Get to the point where you're like, literally, this nothing will happen. And it's not, then I would put that in the category of, okay, I guess the brain tumor's too big.

You know, like, I guess they got to the point where instead I would, and you're right, there is that moment, I'm not saying, you know, like it sounds like maybe we have a different fucking boiling point or whatever, but like there is that moment of like, okay, this brain tumor is, you can't fight a brain tumor, it's just, they, they're gonna fucking, they're going to agree with Tucker Garlson, and it's like, I've spent so many hours, and it would then, it would transition to, boy, I sure love the kid I used to have, and this isn't them anymore, you know, like, if it's truly that bad, if we're talking about that, let, that level of like, they've lost their mind kind of thing.

0:42:05 Tom: Yeah. But at some point, if you're just like, fuck it, this is not working. I'm not doing this us anymore

0:42:53 Eli: Here's the contrast that I'm interested in, and it's weird that we're getting so, um, so like therapy e on this episode, but Thomas, one of the things that you've talked about quite a bit on this show is the transformation of your relationship with your dad. I'm really interested to hear sort of how your thoughts on, on that parent-child relationship and protecting yourself, uh, you view the relationship with your dad and how that transformed based on that. Do you know, do you sort of get what I'm driving at, or is that too vague?

0:43:07 Thomas: Um, I don't think I, I ever had anything like this kind of love for my dad at all. I think that I had, I don't even know what the, fucking verb or whatever it is, is in that sentence. Like, I don't, I didn't hate my dad. I didn't, I maybe I love my dad, at one time, but it's, I think, that going the other way is a, is a tough thing.

And one part of this actually, seeing how much my dad didn't feel this way about us, at all, like, to, like, to the, to a comical degree, like it wasn't even, it was like if we fucking, uh, a movie he didn't like, he's already like, Tom's level, well, never mind, didn't work out, it's like, all right, well, try again with some other kids or something. And so, like, seeing that also informed my feelings about him, where it's, yeah, he just didn't quite, he, have what mentally he needed, you know, he just didn't. And I don't, it is hard, like, I don't, I still, I don't hate him, like, I actually, I'm not sure, when, in to talk about it, but my mom actually recently, she wants me to digitize home videos, and she brought one.

And then I was like, yeah, I can do that, fucking whenever, it's fine. And then ADHD took hold, and then I just sat there forever. And then she came over the other, yesterday, for my birthday, and was like, oh, you're here, so this thing matters here, I'll do this for you now. And so I digitized it, and it's, it's really a trip seeing my dad at the same, like, kind of age, you know, know, at the same, like, phase

0:43:56 Tom: Right.

0:43:58 Eli: At

0:44:44 Thomas: That I'm in.

0:44:45 Eli: Your age Yeah.

0:44:45 Thomas: Yeah. It's really, it's really fascinating. Like, I don't know how much of it I can kind of do, but it's, it's interesting to see. Cause it's so revealing. It's like, oh, I feel this way about my kids right now. And he, and it's pretty much what I suspected. Like, he's perfectly fine. My dad was not, like, every day was horrible. Mean, he got, you know, he got definitely got grumpier as he got older. It's more just, it's more about a kind of an emptiness, you know, it's more, like, like, he's perfectly, he was, he was super fun to interact with at times, and and especially the younger he was, you know, before, like, kind of the mental illness took hold more or whatever, he gave, or maybe he gave up trying, I don't know what it is, but it's interesting to see, and I, I like, I'm not sure how much that changed, I'm trying answering your question, but like,

0:44:47 Tom: Right.

0:45:10 Eli: No.

0:45:30 Eli: You're, you're smack dab totally answering it, because that, that is also a very interesting dynamic to me, right, are such a uber mega, back the truck up of love, Dad, and so your examination of him at your age is such an interesting thing to me, because it is you, as an adult, realizing how, how easy it is to love your kids, reflecting on an adult who did not, right?

0:45:50 Thomas: Yeah. Can I give you an example? If you don't mind, it's not, it's pretty short. So in this video, well, no, of the video, I mean, it might be, you know, sorry if it's branching off too much or whatever, but

0:45:54 Eli: Please, no, there you go. No, nobody, this is what we're talking about. If it gets boring, I'll do a drum shot. Don't worry. There you go, hey,

0:46:02 Thomas: Yes, in the video and it's fucking wild, man. I don't know. I know, Eli, you said you had like an uncle or something who kept every record of everything. It is pretty crazy that my family somehow had, like, they got a a fucking video camera thingy that not too many people had in like 1990 or something, or 1989, and it's weird. It's wild, like, it's so interesting that, because I have so little record of anything else, like, I don't, you know, I don't have much.

Maybe my mom does somewhere and I just haven't seen it, but I'm not, you know, I don't, they didn't keep track of a whole lot in that way, but we do have these home videos. And it was so fucking funny. Let me tell you this interaction. So the video at this particular point, the other major revelation about this, that I truly cannot tell you how crazy it is, is I'm just Arlo. Like I'm literally, it's watching Arlo on a screen.

And every, every single time I say, I just, I want to make this very clear. Every single time I say say Arlo's like kind of a weird kid, I'm describing myself too. I mean that in a, in

0:47:08 Thomas: A way that's exactly me. It's fucking, it's crazy. Like, and I say that with love too. I love how weird the guy is. He's just bizarre. I enjoy it every day. He is not predictable. Like you can't, you're never going to know what he's going to do. And then sometimes you're going to know exactly what he is going to every time. But anyway, I was in this particular video, I was four. I hadn't even turned five yet. I was I think turning five.

So it was, yeah, it was just before my fifth birthday in this video. And so, I mean, my dad, like I've told you, was older. So that means he was 45. So he's quite a bit older than I would have been at this, you know, same thing because I'm only just turned 37. But anyway, I realized when I watched that, I kind of already knew this about myself. I knew I've always liked being the person who puts stuff together.

You know, we buy a new whatever and I'm like, oh, I want to put it it together. I didn't realize that when I was still fucking four, I was doing that. Like I saw on the thing, they got me like a new bed and I was like, Ikea didn't exist, but it was sort of Ikea like, and I wasn't doing it. And it was fucking weird. I was like, okay, I don't remember doing that when I was that small, you know?

And I was like putting it together, I was really mad if anyone helped me, which is a total Arlo thing, like I was just like, I just want to figure it out, you know? The video is super cute because I'm putting it it together. I finally got it together, but I still need help from, you know, Sam and my other siblings.

And so we all, at a certain point, it was like, all right, I got the little frame together, which was like kind of in the living room for some reason. And then it was like, alright, all the kids are going to carry it to the room. And it was this super cute procession of four kids. And my little sister, by the way, at this time is like three even turned two, but she's still trying to help. It's like truly the cutest thing you could imagine.

Like it's four little kids marching a big bed frame, like trying to cooperate and figure out how to do it and not, you know, not have the one -year -old get hurt. Cutest thing you can imagine. And at a certain point I said to my mom, I was like, why I are you the one filming this? I said to my mom, I was like, there's no, like I w I that's crazy to me. She's filming it. My dad's nowhere to be found.

And what I love so much is that my mom's answer was like well, you know, he was letting me do the camera. He wasn't going to take the camera from me. And I was, like no, no, sorry. I meant what I meant was, he's not there. Like I didn't mean, like, literally,

0:47:07 Eli: Where is

0:47:09 Tom: Right

0:49:17 Thomas: Like yeah, why, are you the one pressing the button? That's not what I mean. I mean, he's, not even there like the The minute I told her yesterday, minute my kids all were marching a bed frame together, like to go put it in the room that, you know, one of them just put together, I would be dying. I would be watching the whole time. I would be laughing at every step of the way or helping them if they needed.

But like that is a level of cuteness that my heart would explode. Like I'd be, I can't believe I'm witnessing my kids, my little babies cooperate in this way and they're funny and theyre like joyful. Wonderful and my dad you know he wasn't out of the house but you know he's just kind of watching the Dodgers game you know and it's like It's a lot of that. Like, it's nothing is like he's not Hitler, it's just like it's a bunch of like, "Wow, this really meaningful moment, like say the birth of my child or a graduation or whatever." Ah, it's just, he's home, he's watching the game. It's a lot of that, you know.

And it's interesting to see because I do think AS as people, we do need to feel like someone's either wholly evil or not, you know, and especially with parents, the amount of, you know, the number of damage you can do by just being cold or not being there in a certain way at key times is pretty, pretty huge, unfortunately.

And it, and it's hard because it's not like it would be reasonable to even be that fucking pissed at my dad for any one time of that, you, it's just sum the of it kind of thing. Yeah.

0:49:17 Eli: He? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:50:41 Tom: Yeah.

0:50:41 Eli: And well, and you're also grappling with the fact that like when you grow up, right, you reflect on your parents' actions and you go, "That wasn't so great, or this wasn't so good," or you know, what "I think they really did a good job with this," but then when you become a parent, and that's why I, I love that we chose to make this show, when you become a parrot, there's a very interesting transformation that happens to those judgments, because you feel how you feel about the decisions they had to make, right, how easy they were, how hard they were, um, so that indifference then becomes a lot harder to bear because you realize how much fun it is to follow your kids around while they play with the bed frame, and so the fact that he couldn't be bothered as a specific and extra kind of sting to it.

0:51:03 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:51:28 Thomas: Yeah, and it's also, but there's another component, yet another component, to bring to a close, there's also the feeling of like, if he didn't want to do that, just wasn't what, know, like he's just, I couldn't not do that, like unless I physically was, you know, the fucking the epitome of work emergency or something, and then I even then I'd be like, oh I want to see, oh I'll try to fucking, I'd be trying to be included in some way or witness in some way. And he just, there's like the opposite of that. Like there's no, it would be an emergency to get him to even be involved in anything like that, really. And just also the feeling of like, well, if that's how he felt, like there's just something wrong, you, even less mad in a way. It still doesn't mean, mean it wasn't harmful and it doesn't mean I like him, but it's like, yeah, it just, there's something missing, man, there's just something not there, uh.

0:52:19 Tom: This is interesting, I know the show is going long, but it's kind of, it's interesting. So I feel like the reverse is true too, is that, you know, when you grow up with an idea about what parenting is going to to be like, and then you are confronted with the reality of parenting, and it's like, well, that, I thought these moments would be more fun than they are.

And then there are moments, and maybe you guys just aren't there, and, there well, maybe you'll never be there, but like I will raise my hand and say like there's stuff I thought would be fun that just isn't, it just isn't. And I'm like, I thought this would be MORE fun, I thought I would enjoy this more, I thought I would feel a greater sense of, I thought it'd be easier. Like, I'll give you, I'll give you an example.

There's just a small thing, but like, over the 4th of July we decided to take the little kids, the big kids didn't want to go. The little kids expressed an interest in going to see fireworks.

And so, you know, like we, we gathered up some, you know, drinks and stuff, and we got a blanket, and we, you know, put everybody in the car, and we drove over to, you Now, set up our blanket, and we were going to, you know, sit on this blanket as a family and watch the fireworks, and it was fucking horrible. It wasn't fun, it

0:53:29 Eli: Hmm.

0:53:29 Tom: Should have been fun. I guess, but it wasn't fun because the kids were, like, by the time we got there, and there was mosquitoes or whatever, and it was hot and humid, and everyone's in a kind of a shit mood, you know, well Hayley and I weren't, we were actually in a great mood, and, like, but the kids started to get like in a shit mode and they complained the whole time, and you're just like, you know what, a lot of of these moments of parenting are less palatable than in reality, than they kind of are, I don't know, sold or romanticized as being.

There's a lot of moments of drudgery and monotony and just unpleasantness around parenting that I think is like, it's not really kind of like made clear that it's okay that you feel that stuff. And I think it is. And I've tried to bring that point home for our listeners because I felt a lot of guilt at, like, not feeling the right things at the right time. Think that that's just true, too.

It's like, you can, you can be like, you know what, I thought I was going to be a better parent than I am. Wanted to bea better parent that I am. I, I have written down, is how important is it you feel as long as you do the right thing? Things.

0:53:30 Eli: Yeah.

0:53:31 Thomas: Well, I think that makes you an even better parent, I really do. We're playing basketball and every time I shoot the ball goes in, because naturally I just was like, fuck, I, this is easy, this is about fucking, yeah, I'm amazing. And you're out there like, boy, this is not coming easily to me in certain times, but I'm dedicated to still doing a good job, I, that really reflects well on you as a parent. That's, that's not being a bad parent. That's being an incredible parent.

0:54:57 Thomas: And I think that a lot of these things, and look, age of the kids, again, that's the variable. I don't know. It might be that I changed how I feel, but I say this in a way that I don't relate at all to what you're saying just there. And I don't know why. And it could be a kid age thing, or it could could be just a difference in in our constitution in some way, and, like, the important thing is you're not bad for that at all, and you are making such better choices than my dad would ever make with that same challenge, you know, and it's, that's what's important, it really is. Yeah.

0:54:57 Tom: Yeah, but Cause I, I, I don't think, to answer my own question, I don't think it's that important what we feel as long as we do the right thing with our kids. I really don't, you know, as long As they don't know, I don't think it makes that big of a difference. I, you now I'm going through and I, I hope he never listens to it, but whatever, Amen is at an age where it is very difficult for me to spend time with him. I don't think it's an age thing because I didn't have this with Finn. He is in a state, a place, whatever, where spending time with him is hard. It is something I have to make myself do to spend quality time with them. It is not something I am enjoying doing. And there's a bunch of reasons for that that are too much to go in on the show. But it's just really hard. It's really

0:55:36 Thomas: To Some degree. Yeah. Yeah.

0:55:37 Eli: Oh.

0:56:11 Tom: Hard to spend time with him in a one-on-one setting right now. It's all that he wants in the world, and it is so, and I do it, I set aside time every weekend that I have, my wake up early every Sunday, he and I sit and we watch a movie together of his choice, and it's just bro time, just me and Him.

0:56:30 Thomas: That's Amazing. Yeah.

0:56:30 Tom: I set it aside for him, but like I don't like it, I actively dislike doing it, it's hard, and I think, like, I'm just a harder hearted person than the two of of you guys, I

0:56:39 Thomas: Yeah.

0:56:44 Eli: God, if I tuned into a podcast and my dad who was my hero, who I wanted to spend all my time with, was being like, "I just fucking hated hanging out with Eli," I would kill myself on the spot, like Like

0:56:59 Tom: Maybe, maybe I don't know, maybe I shouldn't have said that, maybe I shouldn't have said that.

0:57:02 Eli: The M. Night Shamalan Movie, The Happening, like I would, would find the nearest lawnmower blade and just fucking die for it. No, I think it's real. Don't get me wrong, I think it's real. I think it's a thing that parents experience. I just think it is a deep secret we must all keep. Except for those few fools among us who choose to have a podcast. Anyone listening to this can never, never tell your children.

0:57:28 Thomas: Yeah.

0:57:29 Tom: Well, I strongly suspect Amen will age out of this developmental Moment.

0:57:32 Thomas: Yeah. I was going to say that, too. You know, especially with Boys, like, kids are fucking weird, man. Like, there are, there, I can anticipate there's going to be some times where it's like, God, it is hard to be around this particular, like, moment in their personality, you know, and that, God, that applied to me for sure. Like, awkward years where you're just trying to figure out, like, what's happening? What is a personality, you know, like, what is, what is anything? Like, yeah, it's not going to be easy. That doesn't mean you don't love them. That doesn't mean you're not, you know, you're I

0:57:33 Tom: Right, I I Yeah.

0:57:33 Eli: Of course, yeah. And that's obviously the case.

0:57:59 Tom: But You know, if I extend that, if I extend that, like, right now, Amen is nine, but he's really nine going on seven, right? Because, because he's got some developmental delays. So he's nine going on seven. I have a tremendous amount of responsibility to him. That keeps me tied and tethered to him in a way that ensures that I have these loving feelings for him. But I was just thinking, like, if he were an adult and I was an adult. And it was that difficult to spend time with him. And I don't have any more responsibility for him, would I feel? And the moment where I could say, like, yeah, I think that there's a world where I can say, like, yeah, you didn't even kill anybody, but I just don't enjoy you I

0:58:40 Eli: I'm just picturing Tom at the water cooler at work and some guy comes up, he's like, Tom, I'm meaning to ask you, um, if Sonic and Knuckles were in a fight, how would that how would that go, how would that go? Real quick, just, uh, what'd you do over the weekend, cool, what who would win in a fight between Sonic and

0:58:55 Thomas: Oh, man, we

0:58:48 Tom: Fucking swear to God swear to God and I'll speak to that, like, so I don't sound like a total psychopath, it's, Eamon's will not talk, will not, not that he doesn't, he just does this to the, he will not talk about anything other than this stuff right now. It's, and it's not, he's not autistic. He does, it's, it's just that, this is, and I've said, like, Hayley said to him the other day, she's like, can we just have a normal conversation? And he's like, no.

0:59:09 Thomas: That's hard I

0:59:20 Tom: I don't want to basically and

0:59:22 Thomas: Decline

0:59:20 Eli: You know who do you think would win in a fucking fight between Sonic and fucking Sonic.

0:59:25 Tom: And and And it's, or like, and I just, it's just so much it's so much and and so I just think, Frank, what feel that same sense of, fuck, I got to watch a movie with him when he's an adult I and don't have those tethers of responsibility? And I think in that circumstance, I could raise my hand and say, yeah, I can imagine a world where I don't have strong, loving feelings for my kid. I hope that that's not the case. I don't want to come across like I'm saying like, yeah, I'm just fucking indifferent to my kids. I'm so not. But, like, I also can say I could raise my hand and say I can imagine my kids growing up into people where I would be

0:59:31 Thomas: Yeah, no yeah that dude that would be hard for anyone, there's literally, you know, like, there's no fucking way Yeah, Yeah,

1:00:09 Tom: Like, fuck, I don't want to spend time with you, because I've met so many people that I'm like, fuck, I don't wanna spend time, and why would I feel love

1:00:16 Thomas: I could I could imagine that too, yeah. Play

1:00:17 Tom: Yeah, I and I don't know that I would still have that well, to go back to that well, to me, like, as my kids have aged, that well is like less and less deep. When it's, when they're really little, that well feels infinite. It really does. And I think that key is that responsibility piece, that responsibility plus that lack of agency, it's supposed to make us feel like there is a limitless well of deep, deep love for this person.

And that's right, and it's appropriate, and anything else would be monstrous. But I, I personally feel like that well is less deep as the kids become people, and it then becomes based on who they are. And, and it does, in that sense, still feel more, it's not as conditional as, like, the love I feel for my friends. Right?

Like, it's nowhere near that conditional, but I can see a world where I'd be like, yeah, man, if you need to borrow money, I'm here, if you needed me to help you with something, I got you, I'll never not take your call, you'll never know it, I'm not, but I probably didn't think about you today, no, but, like, I probably didn't think, like, when we're both adults, and I, like, I don't know if my dad, I don't know if I cross my dad's mind every day, do you know what I mean, my dad doesn't cross my mind every way, so I can see a world where that could happen, I

1:01:17 Eli: But, ooh, Monday isn't great for me.

1:01:40 Thomas: Something from the soundboard so it can move on

1:01:42 Eli: No,

1:01:42 Tom: Know, that was dark, I'm sorry. I don't mean for it to be dark, I just wanted to be honest, yeah,

1:01:43 Thomas: Yeah,

1:01:44 Eli: It's good. Oh, wait, no, I got a perfect one. There you go. We found it. Gentlemen, before we go, kind of a bummer for you this week. Did you hear about the depressed Swedish guy? Yeah, he wished he was never Bjorn. Born

1:01:49 Thomas: That's

1:02:11 Tom: A

1:02:11 Thomas: A great one, oh

1:02:16 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

1:02:55 Eli: Minute I saw this I was like, oh, I need a soundboard in my life, so I immediately bought a nine button soundboard which is going to go into my second input, so that I can get fucking wet and wild up in this bitch, do one I bought can take 128 gigs of audio, that's an entire audiobook, and so I will, when I'm on someone's shitty podcast and they don't cut out my coughs, just occasionally use my sound port to play all of Gulliver's Travels if they're not kind, Thomas, think about how much better it would have been if when we were talking to the trolls I could, could have done this, hello.

1:03:03 Tom: Oh God fucking

1:03:09 Thomas: Oh, that's awesome. If we just killed ourselves, yeah. Oh, no, that. Yeah, sorry.

1:03:34 Tom: I am