DOD60: What If You Hate Playing With Your Kids

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Tom: To Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's just playing around. I'm Tom Curry, I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen. God damn it.

0:00:37 Eli: Right, Thomas, what do we do to make that seem bad? Because that's our new game, right? What do we talk

0:00:42 Thomas: Just playing around.

0:00:43 Eli: About today to really wreck this for Tom?

0:00:48 Tom: How can you distort my beautiful intros?

0:00:50 Thomas: I was going to say, I feel like he got a pretty ironclad one there.

0:00:53 Eli: You got a good idea. You locked it in this week. Racism.

0:00:59 Tom: God

0:00:56 Thomas: Yeah. Racism. Wanted to tell you guys something, this, this, don't know how to feel about this, but it was just a thing, it was an interesting thing that happened. I've mentioned I think before that Arlo, uh, well any of our boys, because of Lydia's dad, um, a 50/50 shot at being colorblind, essentially 50/50 chance because genetics, what the fucking weird is that? I had to try to explain that to Phoebe, by the way, and it was like, how in the world do you put that in words that a kid will understand, like, said like genetics and then just hoped that would work, like that would explain it. But anyway, um, Arlo was born, I, I'd always be curious, like, oh, Arlo, what color is that, you know, like I just be very curious to to see like what, when I could tell, because it's very fascinating.

0:01:35 Tom: Sure, yeah. Constantly testing him, he's just like, are you gaslighting me as fucking, what I just, you ask me all the time, what is going on, dad, don't you know what color that is, uh,

0:01:42 Thomas: A little bit. Yeah. Well, but it's, but it's actually pretty important because Lydia's dad has a pretty sad story about like, and you also of course this was the fucking fifties or whatever, when they just, beat you people who are different or whatever. But, but he has a story about how he, you you know, cause you don't know, like if you, you're just fucking born the way you're born and then you would never know that you're seeing color differently until, you know until something really tips it off. And apparently when he was in, you Know, like kindergarten or something, he colored a tree red instead of green or something and just like got made fun of and the teacher was shitty. And so like you did want to know just to be ahead of it, you know, just to Be like sort of in the same way that he has to know about his allergies. And I always am afraid of that because, you are pretty imperfect in their ability to recount truthful information.

0:02:32 Tom: Yeah.

0:02:33 Thomas: But he, at least he has an idea that he eggs, can't eat eggs, you know, and it's nice because it's like, okay, so at least in that little way, he might be protected against some situation where I'm not there. You know what I mean? Like just trying to know it as soon as I can for to help him as much as we can.

And so talking about playing with kids all through his, I keep wanting to say his childhood, but he's fucking four, all through his babyhood, through his whatever. Like in the, in the bath, we had these different rubber ducks that were different colors, you know, just all the basic fucking red, green, blue, whatever colors. And I would constantly ask him, I'd be like, which color is this? Which color is this? Just to figure, and they like that anyway, they actually fucking love it, you know?

And whenever I'd asked him, I'd have to stop Phoebe from answering every time, you know, because she has to fucking like answer any question asked. And so they loved it, but I, I got pretty confident that he wasn't colorblind because he nailed all those, you, time he'd know exactly which color each one was.

And I did it enough times, I was like, OK, maybe there's something about the rubber ducky that he, you know, is able to like memorize or something, you know, maybe some other thing I'm not seeing. So I do it with different toys, you know, and I did it enough times that I stopped doing it because I just was like, oh, he's not colorblind, nice, we got lucky. And

0:03:44 Tom: Right.

0:03:44 Thomas: Then if you remember when I was doing telling the soccer story, I think I might have mentioned this, um, was the first clue that that maybe something was a little off, but the complicating factor is Arlo's the weirdest fucking guy at all, you know, he's so weird, like he's just Weird, man, he just does weird shit. And so you don't know, what happened was the, and coach told them to go to the green cone or whatever, it was the green flag or something, run over everybody, run, and literally the entire soccer class runs to the green one and he runs to the red one, or vice versa, I don't, it was one of them, and then that, Lydia And I both looked at each other like, uh, okay, that's very, very concerning.

But like, he's also a fucking weirdo, he just does whatever he wants all the time, so I was like, I donno, I tested him pretty hard and like, even that day I asked him like, hey, is that red, that green, he gets it, you know, but, and I was, it was enough that I was like, I don't know, that's, that's pretty concerning.

So, so what I did, for some reason, what we did, Lydia and I together, was like, well, we'll ask his doctor next appointment. I don't know why, that was like, we could have just tested him ourselves, but we just were like, there's so much going on. For some reason both of us were just like, yeah, that's what we'll do about it. And and we asked and she's like, well, yeah, I don't know, have you just tested him? Or we're

0:03:59 Tom: Right. Right. Yeah.

0:04:53 Thomas: Like, Oh yeah, no, yeah. We should have done that. We're just,

0:04:53 Tom: Have You Tried not being a lazy Piece of shit dad, have you tired That one You Just

0:04:58 Eli: You don't understand. We're very busy. We're so busy. Go

0:05:02 Thomas: And Can You do anything with a baby screaming in your face? Like you really can't, like, I want to see you guys take a fucking SAT test with Remy screaming at your face, which

0:05:11 Eli: Don't be ridiculous, Tom doesn't believe in the SATs, yeah.

0:05:16 Thomas: Yeah, he's like, I still was able to answer C for every answer is pretty easy.

0:05:19 Eli: It's Great.

0:05:19 Tom: That Was Very easy.

0:05:20 Eli: Yeah. I just Took A single marker and scratched a big line down on the thing, right?

0:05:20 Tom: I don't Know you Guys are much About nothing, actually. Just you

0:05:26 Thomas: But Had happened was the reason I had never had them tested is they don't test them until three or four because they need to be able to identify letters and numbers, you know, stuff that makes

0:05:35 Tom: Yeah.

0:05:35 Eli: They need To be able to do the dots puzzle.

0:05:36 Tom: Right.

0:05:36 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, and There are ones you can kind of fake, that are kid ones that have them identify animals. Like it'll be a shape of an animal, but it's kind of tough. Cause like the way the test needs to be, it's pretty hard. Like even one of them, I was like, I don't even know what the fuck that is. Like, I know that that's, this is a hard test.

So that's kind of why in my brain I had gone down in, you know, when you sort of label things as like, all right, I'm done with that issue, you know, I had just thought, ah, I can't do anything until we get a real like eye exam going. But, but once the doctor said that, I was like, oh yeah, he knows all his fucking letters and numbers. Now I could just do that fucking test.

Like it'll tell you, you know, it'll be a green two, number two in a red circle or whatever. And so I was like, oh yeah, duh, I can do that. So once she said that, I was finally like, oh yeah. And, and, and it's even still, I got distracted and didn't do it for a while.

0:05:38 Tom: Yeah. Right.

0:06:26 Thomas: Um, and so I tested positive for ADHD several times in this process, just in life. But the other day, Saturday, I remembered and I was like, oh shit, I want to have them do this. Cause I just, I don't know, I just thought of it. And so I jumped on the fucking internet and tried to find the good tests and there's a bunch of played for bullshit and all this, like sign up till you see your results.

I was like, god fucking damn, I found a good one. And I just, just weird, I wonder if anybody's had an experience like this, where we're doing the test, you chug along fine, you know, I was looking, okay, you know, he's got this. And then there's one particular color combination where I was, was like, buddy, what shape is that? This one is shapes. I was like, what shape is that? And he's like, circle.

And I was like, it was a circle, but the way he answered, you know, when you're really dialed into your kids, the way he answered I was like, the whole picture is a circle, you know, so like it's a circle and then a shape inside the circle. And so because I, a little concerned, but the test had a bunch more examples. So I was like, all right, I'll kind of keep an eye on that. And then sure enough, enough when, when that same combo came up again, that same color combo, and it was a triangle, I was like, buddy, what, what shape is that? And he's like, circle. I was like, oh man, I knew it. I, like, I kind of just knew, you know, like you you're

0:07:11 Tom: And

0:07:37 Thomas: So dialed in.

0:07:37 Tom: Then You're Like you're full of Shit, you're Fully shit.

0:07:38 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, no, It's like you're kind of, I a way it's, comforting. Like to know I'm so dialing into how he answers stuff that I just, I like, I knew there was something wrong with that answer, even though know it was the right answer. And so when he, when he said circle, when it was triangle, that was like, oh fuck. And I asked him, I'm like, hey, is that all one color to you? Like, is that, is thing one color? And he's, like yeah. And and so it was just this really, I don't know know what word to use but I wouldn't say sad exactly but it was just really weird to like you're sitting with your kid and there's a thing they just can't do you was right there and I had to stop her from being like what you can't see what that you know like really roasting him or anything because kids can't understand but

0:07:40 Eli: Liar.

0:08:17 Tom: Right, so

0:08:18 Thomas: It's when there's a light ish red on a gray background, like it has to be a really light red, that was the interesting thing. When it's the darker red, he nails it, he's like, oh yeah, triangle, totally fine. But when it's like a super light, faint red against a gray ish background, he literally can't see it. And it's just so weird to sit there and it's, you know, it's a little heartbreaking to see him. Like could you see him kind of struggling a bit to be like, I don't understand. Cause the test had the different answers that he liked touching, you knows, touching the triangle or touching the thing. And then that slide comes up and he's just like, you know, just like kind of, just of squirmy, like just can't understand what's happening, you know? And was really sad. So it turns out, you Know, it's not a big deal or anything. It just was a, it Was just an interesting emotional experience with, with my kid. And I wanted to share it.

0:08:55 Eli: Yep. Red.

0:09:03 Tom: No, do they do something next at all, or just do you report that to his eye doctor? You just kind of have that info in the back of your head, okay?

0:09:10 Thomas: Yeah. So, um, the website that had the test advertised after for like, here's these glasses you can buy him where he could see this color. And it's like, well, that's interesting, but I'm not going to do that now. Um, now this was just an us trying to know, and it's actually really helpful to know just we didn't make an eye appointment. Um, but again, it's, there's not really much you can do. It's just being aware. And sure enough, what was funny is day, which was, uh, which was the day before Mother's Day, that day Phoebe worked really hard on her card, she you colored, I had them pick out cards, I kind of told the story a little bit already on the bonus, but I had them pick out cars, which I always do, and then I have them like draw or write their name, and Arlo is just, again, am telling him, buddy, you want some crayons, you can color, draw, whatever. He takes a card. He writes A-R-L-O. He's like, okay, I'm done.

0:09:35 Eli: And gray day at school uh

0:09:38 Tom: I love That kid.

0:10:03 Thomas: Yep.

0:10:03 Tom: Right there.

0:10:03 Thomas: Yep, and I was like, you don't want to, you know, write like a heart, anything, you know, something. No, I wrote A-R. It'd be like, look, A-r. I'm like, all right, buddy, but Phoebe, of course, is the opposite. She works. She turns her card into a canvas, you know, and just draws all the stuff, and her card happened to be a pink envelope and she wrote, um, mama on the front in like a reddish color. I can't Remember like a Reddish crayon and coincidental. Um, was asking like, Hey buddy, do you like my card?

And he was being an asshole and he was not saying anything. And I'm like, no man, she worked really hard on this card. So I, I kind of got into it with him. I was like, like, Hey buddy, PB worked really hard on that. And she was asking you what you thought. And he was like, I don't like it. And I was like fucking dude, come on, man. Like I'm trying to do these life lessons of like, can you not be a fucking asshole?

Like that's basically, I'm just trying to do that life lesson. Like, Hey, she worked, you know, really hard. And now she's crying. Cause you said you didn't like her card. It just seems like kind of rude. And he's been going into this defiant thing where he just like starts going and he makes like a mad face, you you know, he's like,

0:10:03 Tom: Like, Yeah, fucking You know, What drawings Boring, I don't do anymore.

0:11:06 Thomas: Yeah.

0:11:06 Eli: It's The worst, so, like, and they're, you know, that they're putting on an emotion and it's not genuine, but You also know that you need to validate even non-genuine emotions, right? Because kids don't have the fucking buckets and screws to be like, hey, you're doing a bit, you're getting a You Don't have to say that.

0:11:12 Thomas: Yep. Yeah. Yep, yep. And totally right, Eli. And what he also does is then he looks for reasons. They look for reasons to justify it. That's the funny thing about kids. Adults do this too, actually, but we're just not as aware of it. We have a feeling or an emotion and then we kind of look for rational reasons for it, you know? And they're not always real, but kids really do that. Kids really do that because they're like, I'm mad and they'll and but they're bad at it. So, they'll pick like, I'm mad because that pillow over there is not in the right and you're like okay, that has nothing to do with anything. So the reason I'm telling this is he did that. He goes in an angry face and I'm like, buddy, come on, man.

You just she's crying because you said and he goes, yeah, well, I don't like green cards and And Phoebe and I were like, it's what? Oh, it is. And this has never happened except for that one soccer story. And it was so funny that it happened right after the colorblind test because I was like, oh. And I wanted to just be super gentle and, like, clear about it. I was, like. Oh, do you see that as a green card? And he is, like., yeah, I don't like green cards with green writing on them. And

0:11:42 Eli: Why we have jobs.

0:12:28 Tom: Like, yeah, I don't blame you, actually, that's kind of a shit combination.

0:12:30 Thomas: Yeah, before I hade time to intervene, Phoebe was, I was like, although not green, it's pink, you know, just like roasting him for it. And then I had to have the conversation with Phoebe, um, tried to have a heart to heart. And I was Like, Hey, Phoebe. He, just can't see. And, and I pulled out the slide that he couldn't see that I sent you guys to just for fun. Um, and, um. And so I was just like, Hey Phoebe he's, he has something called color, colorblind.

This is what I was trying to explain to her, the genetics thing. And that was impossible, but I was Yeah, he just, he cannot see this color. So I'm going to need you to like, to, Like try try to support him, you know, cause, cause in life he's not, you know, there may be times when, you know, he could get made fun of or other kids. I didn't say was, you know, like how you did just now. And I was like trying to phrase it.

There could be times when, you know kids won't understand that he just can't say it's not his fault. Like it's just how he was born. There's something different about his eye, the

0:12:31 Tom: Yeah.

0:13:14 Eli: Such a sucky situation because he's being a piece of shit and

0:13:18 Thomas: Yeah.

0:13:18 Eli: Then she, there's a meta piece of shit outside of it, and you kind of have to have a conversation about disability with a Fucking six year old. And so you've got, and all the time, just all their emotions and everything they feel is invalid and shitty and stupid, But You can't say any of that or they'll do heroin, so you've gotta be like, okay, well, HERE'S THE MR. PUPPET PAL, THIS IS WHY OUR GRANDPARENTS HIT, AND MR. PUPPET PAL SAYS THAT SOMETIMES, Oh,

0:13:26 Thomas: Yeah. Oh God.

0:13:39 Tom: We

0:13:48 Thomas: Oh, there is no cleaner window into how shitty humans can be than children, like, like, there's also no Clear window into how pure they can be, like, sometimes they're pure and great, but other times doesn't matter the kid, because I'm telling you, Phoebe is kind as it gets, there's a natural human reaction to where if someone's different, even in any way, if someone is different in a way they don't understand, they're like mad about it, they're like, no, I don't understand why, and you're mad about, they're just kind of different, but you realize that

0:13:55 Eli: Absolutely.

0:14:16 Tom: Need To single her out and exclude Them from The tribe, banish Them, let them die in the wilderness, I

0:14:18 Eli: Right, yeah.

0:14:16 Thomas: Yeah, Totally. That's, I, I swear that's like the default human impulse, that We have to raise them Out of. And, uh, but, I, as much as you're completely right on, I, it was nice, I think Phoebe, I'm really proud of her, because I was able to kind of frame it as like, oh, so maybe that's why he didn't like her, I just went for his bullshit excuse, which honestly was completely bullshit, but I was like, oh, maybe that's why he didn't like your card. His eye doesn't see that color the same. And so I wouldn't, you know, don't, think don't anything about it.

Uh, her credit, she was really good about it, it was great. I, um, felt proud of that conversation, cause I wanted to have, tell her to have her brothers back, you know, if they're ever playing with other kids and you they just do do that. Kids will just do, you think that's great. You know, they'll just go fucking nuts because they don't understand, you know?

And so I hope I've enlisted her a little bit as his defender, you know, if they're in a playground situation or something where, where there's other kids. And, I think I did, because right after that, she incorporated it into her imaginary play. She was like saying, oh, and there's this thing called colorblindness. It's like, that's how, you know, they've

0:14:25 Tom: Yeah, Just Right,

0:15:20 Thomas: Taken It on Yeah, She Always Does, That's Great.

0:15:20 Tom: Away, just Like Boom, All right, Now that's Part Of her Lexicon, huh, that's great.

0:15:25 Eli: Guys wanna play House? I wanna play Colorblind and Stuck in a Macy's! Alright. Ah, dammit.

0:15:29 Tom: Oh,

0:15:28 Thomas: Pretty Much. That's Phoebe for you. Hey, You know we haven't told people about in a while is, um, auto ads, unless

0:15:34 Eli: Uh, Sent me colorblind with rage, I'm Still just getting the Saint Jude's Hospital ads by the way on my normie feed, that is all I get, so, uh,

0:15:42 Tom: I I got a Spanish ad today, just an exclusive Spanish add, uh, it was actually this morning, I was listening to the normie feed this morning while I was packing up the house, and it just popped into the rotation, I was like, oh, I've already listened to it, but I'll just, I'll listen to it again, and yeah, it's fucking all the auto, auto ads are Spanish. I haven't spoken Spanish since high school, so that auto ad fell on literally deaf ears.

0:15:50 Eli: But

0:16:10 Tom: I was thinking it was nothing live.

0:16:09 Thomas: It's An Ad For The New Bibliotheca, I Won't be knowing what the fuck you're talking About.

0:16:14 Eli: Yeah, If you want to avoid those auto horrors that we've inserted into this podcast to feed our babies, even though they're jerks sometimes and sometimes they're broken, and you can get over to patreon.com/dearolddads, all one word, you get a bonus story about our kids at the end of every episode. And this month's bonus, we just recorded it, we're doing a brand spanking new Q&A, we talk About Mother's Day, we talk about wife swapping, it's a good time, check it out, patreon.com/dearolddads.

0:16:40 Thomas: Yep, Really should just hook everybody in by pretending, oh, yeah, and we did the wife swap on On air, it Was You You Don't Want to Miss it, like it was Fun, You Know, and

0:16:55 Eli: And we did the wife's. And then videos are on there. What Tom doesn't think my wife exists anymore. It's sad. It's a little sad.

0:17:04 Tom: Who I never, never heard of her,

0:17:04 Eli: Yeah.

0:17:05 Thomas: Did The colorblind test with Tom, and it was just Anna against a gray background, He's Like it's Just One, it's One Color.

0:17:09 Eli: He couldn't see Anna anymore. Yeah, no, it's true.

0:17:11 Thomas: I don't understand, patreon.com, all right.

0:17:16 Tom: There's an interesting, uh, that popped up on the Dear Old Dads Facebook fan page, and it really got me to thinking about what you guys would think about this. I've got, I got, as you will be unsurprised here, pretty strong opinions on this, um, but there

0:17:30 Thomas: Your kids never do it, no. I Think

0:17:31 Eli: Never do it

0:17:32 Tom: It Never Hug Him about Whether or not you should feel obligated to be your kid's playmate, um, and, and whether or not playing with your kids is something like that you really should feel strongly that you need to do, or whether or not you can still be like a really good parent without feeling so obligated to just get in there and play with your kids. So I'm real curious where you guys land on that, what your thoughts are. And I really want to know, too, if your dad's played with you, like when you were kids, like played with you.

0:17:32 Eli: Right. Yep.

0:17:33 Thomas: You Already know the answer to that question.

0:18:04 Tom: I do know the answer from.

0:18:05 Eli: Honestly, this one's a layup. I think we all know the answers for all of us.

0:18:11 Tom: Let's, let's run through the exercise anyway, but I, I'm, I'm curious, Obviously Eli You're

0:18:13 Eli: Yep. We do have to podcast anyways.

0:18:16 Thomas: Yeah, You're Right, The show Must Go On.

0:18:17 Eli: That's true, we do. This show would eventually devolve into,

0:18:17 Tom: Yeah, Right, Yeah, Just Thanks, Yeah, Welcome

0:18:21 Eli: Well, you know how it is. Yeah, no, I know how I know it is and you know, how it is. Oh, I don't know this

0:18:23 Tom: To Dear Old Dads And That's The show

0:18:26 Thomas: That's Every show, Every episode when we're Like 70 is gonna be, and you know, yeah, no, I know.

0:18:31 Eli: Thing.

0:18:31 Thomas: And that's the show, and see you later, everybody.

0:18:34 Eli: Not going to be 70 silly

0:18:35 Thomas: Is

0:18:36 Tom: Eli, obviously your dad did play with you, right, like He Played, like you'd get down On the ground and play Legos or build forts or Whatever the fuck

0:18:41 Eli: The time. Constantly wrestle. He's beat me up with this, this, I had this red stuffed elephant, and I wanted to fight that elephant all the time, and I mean literally hours, my poor father would just whack me around with this, red, it was like one of those squishy ones, this red squishy elephant, and I would just, I thought it was so funny, right, we're doing on the bed or where the carpet was or the couch, and you know, I'd just get my ass kicked by a red elephant for hours and hours at a time. Oh, it was fun, playful.

0:19:15 Thomas: Good, I don't know what to make of that. Is

0:19:18 Eli: Fighting the elephant, not actually fighting the, I was super psyched for this activity, it's not like I would be miss panning, maybe like, oh, who's here, Mr. Elephant, and I'd be like, oh god no, you're

0:19:23 Thomas: Okay, well,

0:19:29 Tom: So, pachyderm of discipline enters the room. Oh god.

0:19:30 Thomas: I gotta remember that it's an Eli story, you know, because maybe my brain was primed for the Tom story, like oh, and you know, how delightful,

0:19:38 Eli: A problem. For a time, right, yes,

0:19:38 Tom: Right, there you thought there would be like a twist

0:19:39 Thomas: It is when your dad just beats the fucking shit out of you with an elephant, you know, just totally fucking just tells you, don't come out of your room till you best the elephant in single combat, and then you're stuck in your room for like a month, you know, like, it was so fun.

0:19:41 Eli: The punishment, elephant, yeah, in single combat, yeah, obviously, but the elephant's your brother, the but yeah, no, he played with me all the time, although I will say, the person who played with me the most, right, and truly, like, I will never hear the end of this, was my mom, so I, I loved to play pretend when I was really little, and I wanted to play, pretend constantly, I'm the prince, and you're the princess, I'M THE CAT, AND YOU'RE THE OWNER OF THE CAT BUT I'M ALSO SMART AND I GO TO COLLEGE AND and good at all the... I just wanted to play pretend constantly. And like, that's hard on any parent, which I think we're going to talk about

0:19:56 Thomas: I thought wow, yeah, yeah,

0:20:31 Tom: Yeah,

0:20:31 Eli: A little bit. Like even a parent in peak physical health, fucking Olympians come home and their kids are like, let's play pretend. And they're like, daddy's tired. Ronald, can I, can I run an ultra marathon instead? But you also remember that my mom was bedridden with depression through a ton of my childhood. So my mom was playing pretend while violently depressed from bed, so,

0:20:39 Tom: Yeah,

0:20:53 Thomas: Yeah, I was actually gonna, I was trying to figure out the tactful way of asking, like, how the fuck did she pull that off, I'm sleepy, yeah, exactly, that

0:21:07 Tom: No,

0:21:00 Eli: Genuinely, what she would do, she would be like, and I am the cat owner, but my legs don't work, so, I need to right, I need stay here, or like, something that she, I think, if she, yeah,

0:21:11 Thomas: Works though, that absolutely, were like, pro tip, seriously, incorporate playing with your kids by just, Tom, I'm surprised you haven't done this because I know your take is gonna be, never play with your kids, don't look at them, they shouldn't, not be seen, but um, but you can find ways to be like, like, okay, I'll be this character, and coincidentally, I'm sitting down at my computer doing work the entire time. It doesn't work infinitely, but you can get away with a little bit of it.

0:21:22 Tom: It's not at all, no, no, no, you'll yeah, I think you'll be surprised

0:21:33 Eli: Yeah, but made adjustments here and there, but truly, like, for I years afterwards, she would be like, because it got to the point where I would say, so when I was little, I didn't know what to call, like, imagination play, so I'd call it a game, and she got so terrified of hearing, do you want to play a game, that then I would just say, do you wanna play a girl, and she'd be like, oh, yes, yes, literally, it was her version of saw, exactly, but emotionally, emotionally, exhausting, yeah, quite literally, yeah, so uh, yeah, so she uh, she toughed it out through, yeah, and again, like, I'm gonna say, too, way older than other kids, I think, my most kids are like seven, eight, nine, they're not still wanting to do like, I'm the cat and you're the penguin, uh,

0:21:54 Thomas: Like from Saw or whatever. What is that?

0:21:56 Tom: Right, fucking theme, music from Saw starts playing, up, as Eli enters the room, no, no, mom's hugging her knees and rocking, back and forth, I don't

0:22:26 Eli: But that's like all I wanted to Do.

0:22:26 Tom: Know, man, yeah,

0:22:26 Thomas: Yeah, it lasts longer than you would think. It actually lasts longer Than You Would Think.

0:22:29 Tom: Yeah,

0:22:29 Eli: Alright. Well, there's the one way I wasn't weird.

0:22:31 Thomas: Okay, maybe not the cat and the penguin. Maybe it starts getting to, like, X -Men or something. But, yeah, Eli was still, nope, I am a cat and you're a penguin, man. That's my two characters forever.

0:22:35 Tom: Will say, Amon is eight, uh, he'll be nine in like an hour, um, he wants to play I I think,

0:22:46 Eli: It's his birthday today.

0:22:48 Thomas: Working all day, not gonna see him, but yeah, he'll be uh, it'll be fun,

0:22:49 Eli: Don't know. Yeah, not important. I

0:22:50 Tom: Don't, I'm not keeping track of that, but liked it, that was the important part

0:22:52 Eli: Harley a necklace to celebrate. A little card that said, sorry, it's Eamon's birthday. I had him carry it in. It was a good time. It is a good time

0:23:04 Tom: Likes, he wants to play what he calls the Sonic game, and so the Sonic game for Amon is a game where we each choose between one and five video game characters, so I already want to kill myself, I already am fucking just dying, just absolutely dying, so we got to pick between one and five video game characters. Typically he picks characters that I think are from the Smash Brothers game, um, which I have never played that, that explains a lot.

0:23:31 Thomas: Well, And that's everything, because that has, like, all characters from other games and stuff. So

0:23:35 Eli: As all the characters. Yeah.

0:23:36 Tom: So, and then he

0:23:36 Eli: Sure.

0:23:36 Thomas: Yeah. Poor Tom, was so confused. Wait, you're telling me Link is in fuck, what, no. He's not What the hell, yep.

0:23:41 Eli: Mario and Sonic. That doesn't Making. Okay.

0:23:43 Tom: Just, I just tell him to help me pick my characters, right? I'm like, Oh, that's a tough choice, buddy. You got to help me pick. Like I, what I find myself doing guys is a lot like the, like, I don't know, sports thing where I'm just like, oh yeah, it sounds sounds like a lot of fun, what do you think will fucking happen next?

0:23:54 Eli: Solid. Out the coaching that

0:23:46 Thomas: Yep. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Well, If we can keep Samus healthy. Oh,

0:24:01 Eli: Is

0:23:59 Tom: Yeah, the game is that then we pick these characters and then we narrate together in a turn-based way, a battle of these characters and it is an imagination game. And

0:24:09 Thomas: My God. All Right. Tom, I'm actually entirely on your side already, that sucks, I'm I'm sorry, I thought it was gonna be

0:24:15 Tom: I, I want to tell you how long this game lasts this This game lasts literally forever and never stops and is still going on all the time.

0:24:17 Thomas: Oh God. Jesus. Christ. Yeah.

0:24:27 Tom: Eamon would play this game, and I'm not exaggerating. He would play the game in some form, format, or variation all day. Four hours? No problem. Six hours? Happily. A time he doesn't want right now, for whatever reason, to play this fucking game. And I will play this games with him. I will play while we drive, that's typically what I'll offer to him, like I'll be like, oh, I can play while we ride because I can pay attention, I don't have other chores to do or whatever, but like he'll follow me around the house while I'm like doing stuff around the house and make me play this game while I, it is like he fucking wants to play this goddamn imagination game, it's the actual worst, it it is. It is horrible, and I will say that I do play games with the kids, I feel intensely guilty when I don't play games with the kits, but I also, like, Haley doesn't play games with her kids. She's not going to get down on the ground. Gonna do it.

She'll do lots of other engagement activities with the kits, but she and I were talking about, she's like, oh, you're, you'll play with the kids, she's a guy, it's just not something I've ever, I won't, just not gonna do it, she does lots of other engagement stuff but like there, and there's some stuff I won't, I won't play video games with them, I just won't do it, I can't stand video games, they make me fucking crazy, it's like pulling, it's a sandpaper on my teeth, I can't do it, so like I feel intensely guilty when I don't play games with the kid, even though I know it's, it's totally unnecessary to be their playmate in order to have a good, healthy, engaged relationship.

Because, like, here's Haley. She's got good, unhealthy, engaged, wonderful relationships with her kids. Her kids are, you, 12 and 16, so that experiment's been pretty well run. She never was the get on the ground and play Legos with you sort of parent.

0:24:53 Thomas: Yeah.

0:25:10 Thomas: No.

0:26:17 Eli: Crepes, so, you know, let's not let's

0:26:19 Tom: Well, their food shit is their food ship, but yeah.

0:26:21 Eli: Talk that thread away. Right away, there's only so many times you can be like, and she's like, no, and you're like, all right, well, I'm never gonna eat anything, then. How do you like that? So,

0:26:30 Thomas: He's

0:26:32 Tom: But that's the thing. It's like, I really don't think, I really think that that, that to be your kid's playmate is really misplaced. I really think it's really misplanced. I think there are many, many ways to be engaged and interested and do other activities, lots of other activities without having to be a kid's playmate. And um, I'm curious where you guys land on this. And I, and again, it's different if you just like, yeah, I just love playing with my kids, I don't know, but I think there's a lot of people from the thread that really struggle because it can be really difficult and fucking boring to play kid games, especially kid games that last fucking forever, so I'm curious where you guys land with it.

0:27:14 Eli: I feel like I'm probably the farthest away on the spectrum, uh, as far as like playing with your kids go, which is that I think it's like super duper important to play, but I often think that that, that position gets mistaken for, I love playing games with my kids. Uh, I will give an example, again, Max, pre -speech delayed, uh, so the game that Max wants to play is called Blanket Fort. Um, that is where he gets to come into our room and he gets on the bed, we have two down comforters, thank you, patrons, we have to down comforter, and um we've got a green one and a gray one and he will either say, Max, blanket four, or

0:27:42 Tom: Oh

0:27:48 Thomas: Like they're the same fucking color, oh God damn it, that's my son, never mind.

0:27:49 Eli: No are you kidding, I would have him put down, uh, no, he was, uh, have a no-co in my house, absolutely not, so slow, I just didn't know if you guys want to I'm

0:28:01 Thomas: Yeah, that was pretty good, that was pretty good, I don't like it's not look, I don't want to derail you, not as easy as you might think, whenever you see one of those dystopian sci-fis and they're all like, oh yeah, he's one of the, you're like, that's not, I don't believe that's a slur, I'm sorry, I don't, actually, I know I'm supposed to be in your fictional world, that's not a slur, you gotta no code.

0:28:05 Eli: Really good at inventing slurs, that was on a lot of my report cards yeah

0:28:24 Thomas: Not bad, not bad.

0:28:17 Eli: Exactly yep thank you, I would've way outdone mudblood, I'm just saying, I would have gotten something. I would've quieted a room with what I came up with. Anyways, he wants my blanket fort. He says, Max blanket fort, daddy blanket fort gray blanket, green blanket, and all the game is, is I go one, two, three, and then I throw the blanket over his head and then he fights his way out from under the blanket and then he requests it again. And I will tell you, because we did this yesterday, my son played this game yesterday for 67 minutes in a row without stopping

0:28:30 Tom: My god, dude, I feel you right now

0:28:29 Thomas: Yeah Yeah. Oh, my God. Isn't he like sweating his ass off? These are down comforters, aren't you? Like, I know.

0:28:59 Eli: Oh got that kid energy, are you kidding? I've

0:29:04 Thomas: But my kids still sweat like it's worse because they're not aware of how much they're overheating themselves. Have you not had that? I mean, it is California might be.

0:28:59 Tom: Yeah I was gonna say they don't care how much, like, kids will sweat until every ounce of their body is on the outside. Yeah.

0:29:16 Thomas: There's a reason we. OK, unfortunately, I I don't Want To Critique. I can't critique because I wasn't the one in charge, so I have no room to complain at all. But Phoebe's, I think it was her fourth birthday, I want to say.

0:29:29 Eli: Is the pirate costume, isn't it, Thomas? Speak, speak your true, Thomas, I think you've only told me this story but I think, I think we deserve your truth.

0:29:33 Thomas: That or you just know about it? Okay. No,

0:29:38 Eli: I think deserve your true Lydia

0:29:38 Thomas: And I cannot emphasize enough how much I have No Room to Complain because I didn't make the plans. Like, genuinely, I Didn't make the planes, but, um, my, my child, my beautiful Phoebe child, was born in August, and if you are in California, like I am, that means humans can't live in August, that actually, you just, we all die for, like, six months actually, like, we just, we, it's actually about now, you know, it went from 70 the other day to, it's now 95, like, instantly, like, it just, and that'll be for the whole summer, and well, not even than that, it's not even summer yet, from May through, like, October, it's just fucking 90, 100, 105, 100, I hate it's the worst. Anyway, um, somebody, sorry, I won't say who, somebody arranged an outdoor birthday party at a playground that had a little bit of shade, and it was a pirate, she wanted a pirate, uh, party, which I thought was super cute, uh, found her an amazing pirate costume. I couldn't even believe how good it was. Um, it's so cute. I'll treasure this picture

0:29:44 Eli: Bad mom. Nope.

0:29:57 Eli: No surfaces apologize

0:30:36 Thomas: Forever.

0:30:37 Eli: For your abuser, Thomas, don't apologize, this is a safe place to

0:30:39 Thomas: And, but so Phoebe, Just assumed it would be like completely covered or shady, and we get there and it's like, there's no shade. Um, is gets there and she's like, "Okay, I want to put on my pirate costume," which is, it's got layers, you know, there are layers to it. It's not, there's not a cheap ass like t -shirt this is, this had fucking billowy like layers of fabric.

And I'm like trying to talk her out of, like, Phoebee, I think it's, it's a little probably too warm, plus parts of it were black, you know, and she was like no, and she insisted. I was like, all right, so she puts on the pirate costume, and I'm glad she did because in the seconds that she had it on before, you know, she died and I had to get myself a new child.

She, got the cutest picture in the world, which is her doing this little funny pose that I, she just came up with in a pirate costume. And then immediately after that, she goes and starts playing. And the heartbreaking thing is kids, like I said, they don't know that they're killing themselves with heat stroke. Like they just don't know, you know, it's like until a certain age, they can't process it or something. And so I see this poor child pouring sweat red.

And I'm just like, Phoebe, no, I let her play for for a little bit. And then I was insistent. I was like, no, you can't. I'm sorry. You can't and she's like, No, I still want to play and she like pouring sweat or pirate costumes soaked, you know, and so that's the pirate costume story. It still turned out. Okay. We just had them not wear any costumes and sprayed them. I think we found there's some water or something that we found there that we you know just use that to not die. So that was

0:32:00 Thomas: That Jesus Christ.

0:32:00 Eli: Make up for For Lydia's negligence. Wow, Lydia. Wow. We thought we loved your kids, but we learned something new today.

0:32:10 Eli: Anyways, my son played this game for 67 minutes straight yesterday. I think the longest we've ever gone was 90. I know it was 90 -something minutes, and then something happened. I had to change direction. But yeah, my side will do that, or a rotation of that, and a couple other games straight. And I really believe in it. I really think it's important. I think it's a reinforcement of our connection and his safety and the fact that he's exploring whatever he's exploring in the world. There's a, my weird thoughts about my son and what's going on in his brain is probably its own episode. But whatever it is, I'm sticking to it. And I will tell you what helps me in these moments, I didn't see the Facebook thread because I and no longer participating in that part of the internet. But what my meditation experience, because let me tell you, there is no, no more difficult meditation than 62 minutes of blanket fart.

0:33:01 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, Yeah.

0:33:02 Eli: When you throw a blanket over your child's head for what you are sure is the 150th time, you're either getting to Nirvana or you're not. And let me tell you, I am well on my way. I think, because Tom, I think you bring up a really valid point in one way, right? Which is not that we shouldn't play with our kids, which is not the claim you're making.

0:33:02 Thomas: Jesus.

0:33:24 Eli: It's that the guilt about playing with our kids, that if you are not at every second coming up with some new, you know, mantra -sowing, yeah, fucking do this, Dad!

0:33:24 Tom: No, no,

0:33:32 Thomas: Fucking Bluey's dad, baby. Fucking Bluey. His dad.

0:33:36 Eli: Right, exactly, because he's a cartoon dog, he's not real, and that cartoon dog lives in Australia where he has free healthcare. Like, that cartoon dog already has, but if you're not coming up in these bluey games constantly, you're failing, and Something that Anna reminds me of all the time, and we literally had this situation the other day because I was like, what?

0:33:51 Thomas: Yeah. Is look at Thomas's dad and he's still alive.

0:34:01 Eli: She points out, and I think this is true, is that children need boredom, children need part of them playing and learning emotional regulation is to be bored and get over it and learn to self -entertain And one of the problems that I have is that I will literally wake Max up, feed him breakfast, be playing music at him the entire time and singing songs with him over breakfast. Then he gets out of breakfast. We have a whole wash your face and hands game. Then I get him dressed. Then I take him in the car. We sing songs in the call. We go to Target. Then will spend from 7 25 in the morning when he wakes up until 1 30 when he is napping. And then he wakes up from his nap and he wants to have like 20 minutes of screen time. And I'm like, I'm just really worried that like this is where his focus is being, and Anna's like, you need to relax, man, because the other thing is they need to build up the skill of not constantly being

0:34:07 Thomas: Yes. Yes, you Yeah, okay.

0:34:57 Eli: Entertained, right? One of the things is you, the one-man performance troupe, for your kids and that's not good because they're going to be in lots of situations where they need self-entertain. That's a, that's a skill and a muscle you need to let them work and build.

0:34:58 Tom: Yeah. Well,

0:35:02 Thomas: Yeah Yeah.

0:35:10 Tom: A hundred percent.

0:35:11 Thomas: So So what's the thing that being bored all the time develops as a kid? Because whatever that is, I should be in the Olympics for it, whatever it is. Like, tell me what that skill is.

0:35:19 Eli: I mean, I don't to tell you this, but it's supposed to be executive function, Thomas, and I know it's, you

0:35:21 Thomas: Oh, no, No, I was nothing but bored. But I actually, I firmly agree with that. I think that the boredom, I've actually worried independently of all this. I was thinking about, you know, reflecting about just the hot board. It's heat and boredom, god damn the hot boredom, that's such a bad combination, the sweaty hot fucking boredom uh yeah but but like of living in the country and the reason I associate with heat is because you know summer was when most, you know, because most time you're in school you don't have that much time to be bored as a kid, yeah, you still have time, but you know it's, you got school, at least summer's, oh my

0:35:43 Eli: It's the name of our porno. Hot boredom. Too busy being unhappy during the school year.

0:36:01 Thomas: Yeah oh no, I mean just bored though, like at least you have happening around you in the summer, it was like fuck, it was just hot and nothing, and you know, I think there's a certain amount of that that wasn't that bad, because me and my sister, she was the one I was closest to because of just the ages, um, even though we fought all the time, we came up with so much bullshit, you know, like we came up with so many games and things, things all the time, because we were just, we had nothing, talk about the spectrum of playing with your kids, we didn't even bother answering the question because it was already answered, my dad never played with us, I might, I've even expressed, like the one time he played a board game with us, kind of, I'll never forget, because I was like, it was the greatest day of my life, I couldn't even believe it, it was like a celebrity came down and played a board game with me, um, so that sucks, so and my mom, again, she was just exhausted because she had to do fucking everything, and she, she wasn't good at playing.

You know, that's interesting. I hope this isn't offensive to Haley or anything, but I'm realizing my mom now, thinking about the ADHD frame, she's never been good at paying attention to me. She's never played with us in any way. And I wonder if there's any commonality there. Not that Haley is my mom or anything. But if there is any commonity between like, yeah, I just don't really play well

0:36:05 Eli: Yeah. Yeah! Oh, end of podcast

0:37:15 Tom: Yeah no, like, and let me make sure I don't paint the picture wrong, like Hayley does lots of engagement stuff with the kids like lots of engagement stuff, she'll sit down and do a craft project with the kids, when the kids were real little she'd sing and narrate, she'll cook with the kids, so like she does tons of engagement activities with the kids, it's just like that, hey, I'm a kid and I've decided, like, building legos, you want to sit down and build a lego kit, she'll sit down and build a lego kit, but when the lego kid is built, like, let's now sit and like play with those lego toys and some imaginative

0:37:15 Eli: Uh

0:37:16 Thomas: With you. No, Yeah.

0:37:32 Thomas: Exactly.

0:37:50 Thomas: Interesting.

0:37:50 Tom: Hellscape that the kid dreams up that never ends, like, that's not her jam like she's just not so

0:37:54 Thomas: Interesting, okay. Yeah, sounds like different thing going on, probably.

0:37:57 Tom: Know, lots of engagement, I just don't want to pretend I don't wanna like give an audience, like, the idea that like she doesn't do lots of stuff, like lots of my dad, like my

0:37:57 Thomas: Yeah Yeah sure, sure.

0:38:05 Eli: You said Haley's a bad mom on Cape, I get it, um a

0:38:07 Thomas: Totally, yeah, yeah. No, I, I was just curious if there is any common there with the ADHD issue, but it sounds, like, probably not as much. Although, I don't know, there's a little bit, because my mom, she just sucked at playing with us, because she couldn't keep track of everything and she wanted to go do something else, you know, like she was just like, she needed to be working, she needed be busy, and a lot of that was what I think is her undiagnosed ADHD, it also was, again, I joke about my dad all you want, but like, my mom did fucking everything, like, I know there are a lot ways she, she wasn't great, but I, there's almost like, I almost feel offended on, like, my mum's behalf sometimes, times, or at least on the expectations we put on women, because she had to do so much, god, she had to work, she made all the money, she worked full time, she was a teacher, a thankless job, she had to plan stuff, unpaid time planning all the lessons, doing all the shit, she took, she fucking made us breakfast in the morning, took us to school, made dinner, did all the fucking shit, all of that, so like, I, I hope you know, I just want to be made clear that I don't think my mom was a shitty mom, mom at all. I really don't.

0:39:11 Thomas: No, your dad sucked. Sorry. Your dad actually sucked though. Is the difference?

0:39:08 Tom: Dad did every single thing that your mom did right. Right.

0:39:16 Thomas: Yeah.

0:39:16 Eli: And again if I could just chime in from a third point of view, they're both bad, they're both bad, um, Thomas, you just had a worse example and so you've settled on your mom Tom, same deal, no monkey attacks, I get it, I'm up here with the two good parents can

0:39:17 Tom: Yeah.

0:39:21 Thomas: Yeah.

0:39:35 Tom: In what you're describing is like, like your mom was in many ways functionally operating as a single parent. Right. So like, she didn't have the amount of help she had parenting was minimal. So she wasn't fully a single parents, but the amount amount of parenting help she had was minimal and so it's like yeah right like you know the expectations for single parents they should be different like like you can't ask a human being to be more than human it's not fair

0:39:41 Thomas: I Oh yeah. God. Yes. Yes, yeah.

0:40:01 Thomas: It's just not enough hours in the day and energy. Like, and she, I'll tell you, my mom, lucky that she had such high energy, she's always been very high energy, I don't think she would have been able to do all this shit otherwise, um, but I just want to say, I want to announce my lawsuit against Tom, because I, when you mention this topic, I, I was just ready, I was like, oh yes, Eli, we're gonna gang up on him for being a piece of shit, not playing with his kids, what an asshole, look at this guy, he doesn't even like his kids, he went, and then Tom, you on to describe an game that I listening to you describe it, I was like, I fucking hate this so much, I can't believe I didn't think that you would win me over, but you described that game and I'm like, no, I'm not doing that, that's not an option, I will not play that game, but I, but I, so now I'm lost, like I don't know what to think, am I, am I, uh, like Tom, are we the same, I can't handle that

0:40:03 Tom: Right yeah it's the worst oh

0:40:48 Eli: I tell you guys an amazing prank, and really, you should think about this because you're entertainers and you're capable of it, and it's the worst thing you'll ever do to a person, but have you ever taught a child count to a thousand, here's what you do, you're just like, do you want to play count to 1000, and you start to count with them, you're like, one, two, and you just doing silly voices and playing along, and they're laughing, and then you, you leave that space with 900 numbers left to count, and a parent to take over that role, I thought, like, my cousin's a lovely person, I thought she was gonna punch me to death with her bare hands, um, yeah, on that thing of like, uh, Hayley thing, where Tom is calling her a failure, but like, she can do other things, uh, Anna and I actually balance out really well in this way because Anna is incredibly imaginative and does all those engagement activities, she writes songs for Max, she takes in place, she does this, she does that, but does not particularly enjoy boring BS, whereas I have no imagination when it comes to playing with my son, so I'm like, do

0:40:59 Thomas: But

0:41:01 Tom: My God, that's so mean.

0:41:26 Tom: Christ.

0:41:28 Thomas: Sorry oh

0:41:54 Eli: You, yeah so here's the problem I'm so afraid all the time that like truly, my son walks around around our living room table, and every single time my son walks around the living table, I go, careful with your body, buddy. Every time.

0:41:54 Thomas: Wow I would not have thought that uh

0:42:13 Eli: Every times. He cannot walk around our dining room. Why?

0:42:14 Tom: Oh my God.

0:42:16 Eli: Because he fell once.

0:42:12 Thomas: Yeah yeah yeah Yeah. God, you you would have a heart attack if you saw my kids because I'm I'm I'm not like that Eli, but but my kids are so here's here's the combination. They're really rough with each other. We have some hard services around. I've tried, you know, I try to kid proof stuff, but you can't kid proof everything. Well, Eli probably can't, but I'm going to kid prove it. And here's the other problem with not only all kids, but my kids particularly. They are really fucking top heavy. They got giant fucking craniums, giant upper bodies and no legs.

So they just look like these little bobble toys that are going to fall at any minute. They just, they just looked like they're teetering all the time and they're, and they'RE bumping each other. They have no regard for each other's safety whatsoever. And I'll see them. I think is about to paralyze each other 40 times a day. And I'm like, ah, don't be safe. Ah, be careful, be care. And then I realized like how many times of me saying, be carefully is going to do anything. The answer is zero does anything

0:42:48 Eli: We're leaders. Yeah.

0:43:09 Tom: Zero.

0:43:09 Thomas: Because like I'm now just atmospheric noise that they've they're like, OK, he's that that's that fucking fucking that just says, be careful, be careful, because all the time. So it doesn't do anything. So I think, Eli, you would probably die if you saw my kids interact for any length of time.

0:43:09 Tom: Yeah. Right.

0:43:20 Tom: No.

0:43:24 Eli: I'm panicking just at the thought of you stopping saying be careful. I mean, why would you give up?

0:43:28 Thomas: No, I still say it. It just doesn't doing anything.

0:43:30 Eli: Okay. You just got to get louder. Get creative, man, I don't know, which side, I can't help you here, red light, green light. Oh, wait, Armo can't do that because he's a fucking no-co. You thought I was gonna let you get away with it, never, never dropping it, color pride, uh.

0:43:48 Eli: The thing is, Anna and I balance each other super well in this because we are good at tagging in and out, like because she'll do some amazing bubble gun based musical game with him, right, and it's just, a man, I can see his brain cells forming, they're oozing out of his, his ears, and then he'll be like, and he wants to just stack his monkeys in a tower and knock them over for 45 minutes, and I'm like, it's daddy's turn, cop, time to think about some Twitter fights from 2014, stack a window, because let me tell you, here's the great thing about intrusive thoughts, they're always at work, right, you don't have to, that's a nice thing, they always say, oh, I think depressed thoughts all the time, yeah, but you're not bored, are you, no, you are not, count.

0:43:54 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:44:32 Tom: What I want to say is that I think you have to spend time engaged with your kids. I think you, but but you do not have to spend time to be a good parent playing kid games with kids, like

0:44:46 Thomas: Think it really depends on the age. And I really wonder if someone had asked you this question, Tom, when your kids were like five or whatever, one kid, I guess you had at that point was five. I wonder if you even would have answered different because I think they just change so much. You know, when when they're when they'RE five, their whole day, everything is a is a game. Well, OK, sorry, I shouldn't generalize my kids.

0:45:05 Tom: Yeah. No, that's a good point. Yeah, no.

0:45:07 Thomas: Everything's a game all day. And literally any interaction I have with them almost de facto has to be imaginary play because that's and again, I guess I won't universalize it. Maybe my Phoebe is very, very imaginative and she's just constantly the whole day. And I think that's most kids, but I don't know. And any interaction I have with them at all has to be pretty much in those terms. I don't know. Maybe when they're, you know, 10, maybe I would answer a little differently. I' m not sure.

0:45:35 Tom: I think way younger than that. I, because I'm thinking back to when my kids were little, and like I would have days that were very much like Eli's days. So like when, when I just had Finn, for example, you, I would wake up in the morning on a Saturday and would take him with me to, like, we'd, we'd get in the car and we'd like drive to Starbucks and we'd go, I'd get coffee and he'd get like, you know, whatever kid thing he got.

I don't remember what he got, you know, like we'd get like little sandwiches, and maybe like three, four, five, somewhere around that age, right. So little kid, you know, little kid, um, like in the car we would maybe play an imagination game in the car or tell like a silly story together in the car, so that's a kind of play, absolutely, and then like in the weekends in the summertime I might drive him around and, like, we'd go garage sale, so we just drive around and bullshit with each other in the cars, and then we'd stop at garage sales in the summer and I'd let him pick out some like, you know, dollar toy or something from this garage sale or that garage sale, and like when, when he got home and he, he had is like toys, or like I'd sit and play Legos, like build the Lego with him, but when it was time for him to play Legos, like played Legos when he was time from to play with his toy, he played with

0:46:44 Thomas: Yeah.

0:46:44 Tom: His toys, and and it wasn't like I didn't feel, and I don't feel like a strong sense of like obligation to get in there and like get on my hands and knees and also grab a GI Joe, and, you know, fucking have, I just don't think you have to do that part, right?

0:46:46 Thomas: Yeah. I think it's going to be hard to have this meaningful conversation. And I noticed this on the Facebook thread, too, because I don't t know, there are so many variables here, and I don't know that everybody is actually on the same page in what they're discussing, you know, like, because if you were to ask me just generically, like, should you play with your kids, I'd be like, oh fuck yeah, all the time, play with my kids, all the, but if you, if you sketch out the scenario, it's like, okay, are you on your hands and knees doing the fucking play dolls thing with them five hours of the day, I'd be like, fuck no, I'm not doing that, but it's like, I, so it's kind of unclear, you know, I think that what I try to do is I feel constant guilt because I just don't, I feel, feel like I have no time right now.

I'm still, I'm, I, I think that's going to change, but I'm, you know, I've been going through it a little bit in life right now, and I'm constantly, don't know about you guys. Well, I won't speak for Tom.

Okay, Eli, I don't know about you, but, I have been so busy with the work I have to do that I'm basically all day, my kids are asking me stuff, and then I'm like, well, as I'm pondering, uh, I'm kind of bit, I hear you're, cats in the cradle, and I'm like, just over, and I just, all day, I'm like,

0:47:10 Tom: No.

0:47:25 Tom: No.

0:48:03 Tom: You

0:48:03 Thomas: Start to answer like, Oh, I really got cats in the cradle and this. God damn it. Okay, fine. Yeah, we got to play because

0:48:08 Eli: Single time, every single time, and it's always, I don't know how my son does this, but my son waits until it's bullshit, right? I wish, I wish I was like putting the perfect twist on a headline for skating, oh no, I'm afraid I'm composing this email to secure funds for the Britain time. What has happened is I have taken a four second break to watch a YouTube video of a guy getting hit in the nuts by a robot he built, and my son will come over and be like, what? And I'll be like, oh right, I could have been playing with you, but now you've just brought my awareness out of this YouTube video, so I really do have to get back to work.

0:48:46 Thomas: Yeah.

0:48:47 Eli: And he just, like, backs away slowly and I turn into an old man on a deathbed explaining to a nurse why no one's there but her. Yep.

0:48:53 Thomas: Yes. Yes, every time.

0:48:55 Eli: The

0:48:56 Thomas: God, I feel so bad. And, and Phoebe it's, it's even harder again with Phoebe because she's so fucking talk about Bluey's dad she's like the dad fucking created a kid with himself that's the kid version of Blue she comes up with all this shit all day she the other the other yesterday she um oh no okay it was it was heartbreaking it was Saturday night she she makes these things she just makes stuff and make stuff she she took a bunch of objects in the room and some like some of the pet items we had like you know a cat bed or a cat toy or dog toy and she just arranged this whole storefront and was like oh I'm trying to do this thing I am arranged and and we kind of weren't noticing but it was bedtime so we're like okay time for bed and we didn't know she'd been tinkering away at this fucking storefront she's making and she melts down she's like but I didn't get to play my pet store.

I was like, oh, we didn't, we didn't know, but it's, I'm sorry. You have to go to bed. Tell you what, we'll preserve the pet store for you, you know, but it stuff like that all the time. And then the, happy ending to that was we did preserve the pet store four, even though one of them was a fucking thing I needed. I was like just leave it there. Whatever. I don't need to open that package right now.

And so I left it there and then the next day she, found it again. You know, they forget. So I could have gotten away with dismantling it, but you know you never know. You don't want to, that's a gamble.

0:48:56 Tom: Oh, my God.

0:50:14 Eli: Minute you dismantle it is when they, Oh, I'm going to break! That's the problem, right? Is that nothing's real, but you have to pretend. You cannot break the bit, right. It would be so much easier if they were just like, ah, yeah, no, sorry, that's bullshit. Right, but they're, oh, you're just injecting heroin into their teenage veins every time you're like, hey, this isn't valid. Which is insane because it's true, right, the contention there and if you're not a parent is that like constantly someone comes to you and is like the princess and you have to be like wow what a valid and real thing to experience real emotions about please don't fuck a guy with a lip ring am

0:50:15 Thomas: Yep yep yep yeah yeah yep yep oh not

0:50:58 Eli: I doing this

0:50:58 Thomas: Only that when you have two kids they stab each other over that so like they've killed I see Arlo's impaled on the wall just hanging just guts hanging out and then I'm like what the fuck he wanted Woody to have his hat was back and you're just like fucking seriously you did a murder over that like you actually Actually, Woody, the doll from Toy Story's hat was backwards. So you've now committed murder. Okay, cool. Yeah, that fit. That's good. Appropriate. Good use of murder there.

And, the happy ending to this was she did remember the next day and was a time where, yes, I was working as always, but I was like, oh no, I'm going to fucking make time for this because this was a big deal. She was putting it together. And so she said, you need to go to my pet store. It's called Pet-tastic. And I was, like, that's so fucking great. She makes up these things because the place where they do gymnastics is called Fliptastic.

So she has made, she's, I guess, like out that language construction and that flip is a word and tastic came after it. And she's now made Petastic, the pet store, which I fucking love. And so she's she's making signage, you know, she's got social media going.

She's got she's hired some SEO guy to do it um she's got this whole store and it's so fucking elaborate so she was really proud she got all set up and she was like okay you guys need to go to the pet store and Lydia was already kind of doing it so I did was it's to how you incorporate the play time but when you know your mom was depressed and needed to lie down or whatever. I did try to get away with one of those.

And what I do is, I make sure I, do I a good job pretending. So, I was like, okay, um, hun, we really need to go to the pet store, but, um. I'm working. Do you think you could go to pet store for me and get me? And so, like, I tried to make it specific so that it

0:50:59 Eli: Right right yep

0:52:36 Thomas: Was still part of the game, you know? Like, we really need a cat bed for a cat. But I, but like, it didn't work. Phoebe was like. No, you need to. Sometimes it does.

0:52:35 Eli: Of course not yeah no you're both coming yeah so

0:52:46 Thomas: And then I, like, you know what? Fuck it. Yeah, don't totally. I have, I have time. I can do this. And so I was like, yeah, I need to go to the pet store. And I I just want to tell you guys, it's one of those delightful experiences I have that I don't know how much you guys get to have. Cause you didn't have a shitty dad as I did where the whole time I get to just feel that beaming feeling of, oh yeah, I'm doing the thing that my dad didn't fucking do. It's nice. It'S actually, I'm sad that you don't get that Eli. You don't gets that feeling of accomplishment of like the The whole time I'm like, oh, and not only that, I'm going to, it inspires me to do better. I'm, like, yeah, I'M GOING TO FUCK IN. I'M GONNA CREATE A CHARACTER. I'MGONNA FUCK, WHAT'S MY MOTIVATION? YOU KNOW, IMGONNARELYGETINTHER. I'MGOINGTOBUYAPETTHING. AND I ALSO LIKETO NOT DO THE, LIKE, CONDESCENDING ATTITUDE ABOUT IT WHERE I'M LIKE, OH, IS THIS A LITTLE PET STORE? OH, YOU KNOW? LIKE, THAT KIND OF THING.

0:53:32 Eli: In character you're fully committed you're

0:53:34 Thomas: Yeah no I want to I want to actually treat her

0:53:35 Eli: Arguing with her about prices you're leaving her one star love reviews you're like excuse me I saw you have a fucking no co-working here at the back and that's no deal for me.

0:53:39 Thomas: Yeah I threw a rock in the window on the way out I I did I was like oh okay I need this and I just overcommitted I was like yeah I've seen the pets I have at home and then I asked her what's funny is I realized I didn't know like what to get because she is of course taking these items and then they're never what they are they're always some other thing you know so I was like oh can you um why I you know I need your expertise as the the pet store owner, owner of the fabulous Petastic pet store. Can you tell me what these are? And she had all the cat beds like in a pile and she was like, okay, this is a dog bed. This is a cat bed. This is for a chameleon. This is a chmeleon bed. And this is whatever. And so Yeah. And yeah.

0:54:26 Tom: But you can't see it. Ha, ha, ha.

0:54:28 Eli: Was great, Tom. Hey, Tom, Tom? That fucking rocked, just so you know.

0:54:33 Thomas: And and so I was like, oh, okay, well thinking, you know, well we have fucking cats. I was like, Oh, I think I need a new cat bed. And she's like, um, no. Are you sure? I think you need a chameleon bed, I was like, fucking what?

Okay, does my character have a chame, what the fuck, you, I was like, oh, uh, okay, I guess, and I was trying to play with her, I waslike I guess we're getting a chameleeon, she's like, no, and she points and over at my desk that I had just been working, unbeknownst to me she had gotten a chmeleon toy and put it there, like that was my pet chamelean, and I had no fucking idea, and so she points, she'slike you know, kind of like, uh, faux pas, you know, like look over there man, and she points, and I was like, oh yeah, my chameleon, I definitely need a bed for that chameleeon over there for sure, it was so fucking delightful, god I loved it, she's, I love it, anyway, time, you're a bad parent, no I'm just kidding, I know, I don't think that, because if she tried to get me to play this video game character game, I think I would kill myself, like I actually don't think I could do that.

0:55:30 Thomas: It's

0:55:30 Tom: Well, Two Points that like I want to make reference like to this though is like I really don't think the kids need you to be their playmate, like I really think that for the most part, like if you want to be their playmate, be their play mate I think that's great, like I've been my kids' playmates on and off, more rather than less, through the years, like I'm, I'm a giant sucker for it, but I also, like, I I want to acknowledge for those parents that hate it and struggle with it and like really feel a sense of like guilt over their difficulty or inability to like be the one who plays that imagination game for an hour when it's fucking horrible. Like it's okay. It's horrible. Like it is horrible. Somebody should say it to you. Those games are fucking boring.

0:56:10 Tom: Kids games are fucking, but Candyland is fucking boring that shit.

0:56:10 Thomas: Okay, to hate your kid, it's fine. Oh, Yeah, that's boring. But

0:56:14 Tom: It's okay to hear from somebody that like that stuff is boring, and it's for, you know, that it's boring, and even when you're doing it to be itchy inside and ready for it to stop, like that's okay, and if you do it, even though it fucking sucks, like that's kind of like a moment in your mind that you should give yourself some credit, but I don't think you have to do that stuff all the time.

What the kids need to know is that you love them and they can have your attention when it's important, what they need to know. They can go play on their own. They could find brothers and sisters to be playmates. They came to your point earlier, they can get bored and they can go find other things in that boredom to spark their imagination. We don't have to be at their beck and call all the time in order to raise healthy kids.

I think, think there's this like real problem when we don't give parents kind of the okay to say, god, you know what, I fucking hate playing tea party, it's okay to hate playing tea party, if you still play it, like fucking kudos to you, you're a fucking hero, but like it's okay to be like, and I fucking hate playing tea party with my kids, there's just like idea that we're supposed to cherish every moment, but some of these moments are tedious, you know what I mean, like some of

0:57:24 Tom: These moments are like difficult to do. Those things that are supposed to be joyful can sometimes be just really difficult to do, and

0:57:24 Thomas: Are

0:57:32 Eli: On, Tom, because, and the shame that comes with that, right? I come to a different conclusion, but the shame that comes with that is so unhealthy, healthy, and also creates resentment between you and your kid, right? One of the things that's really, really hard to learn as a parent is don't do the things you can't do, right, and don't feel bad for the thingsthat you can provide.

I mean, I know, like, again, just to take this in a slightly different direction, my dad felt like a failure his whole life because he wasn't rich, right, matter how good a dad he was, no matterhow much I adored him, no materhow much of a hero he was, you know, he had set in his mind that what he was supposed to do was make us rich and buy my mom a house by the water, which is what the expression he used all the time, and like the fact that he didn't provide that made him a failure, and I think exactly what you're talking about, Tom, is in that same vein, it's like sometimes we're limited in what we can do, sometimes we don't even want to do those things, and we need to forgive ourselves and have patience with ourselves, and we want to make sure that when we talk about being able to do those things or the joy that we have in those things, we're not accidentally shaming our peers, right? We're not accidently shaming other parents. We

0:58:43 Thomas: Sure, we can't shame Tom for it, okay?

0:58:45 Eli: Can shame Tom because Tom's like, and that's why you don't fucking do it, right, Tom is one sentence away from the truth because Tom is like, yeah, man, nobody should feel bad, which is why fuck your kids, right. Fuck them. Who gives a shit?

0:58:46 Tom: I You shame me for it. It's fine.

0:58:59 Eli: They're just come walking around.

0:58:45 Thomas: Fine. Yeah. Well, Well,

0:58:58 Tom: I think I really do. The kids will turn out just fine. The stakes are not that high as long as those other two conditions are met, that the kids know you love them and they can have your attention when it's important, right? If they can't have your intention when it is important, and it is not super clear that you love them, then, like, yeah, you fucking, you have got some work to do, you know what I mean? But I said you don't have to play mate all the time in order for your kids to know those two important things you

0:59:27 Thomas: I think you can get so much out of a strategic use of your time, like, I really do. I, that's why I'm surprised, I guess, I'm not sure I agree or disagree, because it's one of those things where I imagine if I saw it in practice, Tom, I imagine it would be the same as what I'm talking about, where you don't have to be on your hands and knees doing the game for 24 fucking hours of the day, but I really do think you should, I don't know about feeling bad or whatever, but, like, you should find the times where you're like, oh, okay, I'll pop in here, I'll play a quick imaginary whatever for a certain amount of time, the kids get a huge thrill out of it, and then, you know, I can be like, all right, well, back to work for a little bit, and, like, if you, if you take that time and just do it, you know, here and there, put in a 10 minutes, put in 15 minutes in whatever their imaginary pet-tastic pet store is, you get so much bang for the buck for just tuning in for a little bit.

Like, I don't care how much you hate whatever. Like, you could do that for 10 fucking minutes, right? I mean, people could do... And so I imagine you'd agree, Tom, but I guess I don't know for

1:00:26 Thomas: Sure.

1:00:26 Tom: Yeah, yeah, I guess, you know, the advice, advice I would have is find, find ways that don't make you fucking itchy to engage your kids, like, if your kids are, you know, if, if you, as a parent, if it makes you fucking itchy inside to sit and play Candyland, for example, or whatever, and you just can't bear to do it, then, like, do a craft project instead, you know what I mean? You can you can play with the kids in ways that is, all that are also satisfying and fun and interesting to you, even if it's not the same kind of play, you You know what I mean?

You can find other ways to show that they have your attention and your love and your engagement, like, does. Bring them into the kitchen and cook with them, or do a craft project, or build the Legos, even if you don't play with the Legos. There's a hundred different things you can do, because at the end of the day, all of that shit is mostly just a bid for your attention. And so, as long as you're able to give them attention when they're asking for that bid, then I think it mostly satisfies, and, like, they grow up happy and healthy and don't have, like, weird resentments, or

1:00:26 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Mm -hmm. Yeah. Mm -hm. Mm

1:01:31 Tom: You know, my dad never played, no one's ever going to say like, oh, man, like, my dad ever played with me

1:01:31 Thomas: -Mm-mm. I wanted to play Tea Party. My dad only played fucking fill-out-your-taxes game with it. Like yeah like you're playing with them so it'll be fine yeah

1:01:39 Tom: Right

1:01:43 Eli: Absolutely Well, now that Tom's busy trashing Hayley for an entire episode, yikes, I've got a question for you guys. Why is dark spelled with a K and not a C? Because everyone knows you can't see in the dark. Now I'm gonna do heroin, I think.

1:02:07 Thomas: Sucked oh

1:02:18 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.