DOD37: Clothing Ourselves and Our Kids

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:27 Tom: To Dear Old Dads, the podcast that's not sure if it's going for natty, dapper, disheveled. I'm Tom Curry, and I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:37 Thomas: Heyo!

0:00:39 Eli: I've worn my top hat and my cravat and my shirt that fits me.

0:00:44 Thomas: If the world could see what likely Eli and I are dressed as, as we talk about this, you know, if we do a clothing related thing, if they could just see, we'd be total frauds, it'd be over. It'd be like, no one would ever take us seriously again, because I assume Eli is in a pug shirt that's a giant, way like too big pug face Shirt. Yeah.

0:00:52 Eli: Yeah. I disagree.

0:01:04 Tom: Like A Size 7XL, even though he doesn't need it. Yeah.

0:01:08 Eli: Themed. It's a pumpkin and it says hollow inside.

0:01:10 Tom: It's Actually awesome, and

0:01:13 Eli: Thank you.

0:01:11 Thomas: And Then some sort of like penguin pajamas.

0:01:16 Eli: Penguin pants. It is literally the penguin pants, of course. Yep.

0:01:19 Tom: And Thomas,

0:01:17 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. I don't look that bad, but Right, I don't dress as bad as you, I don't get me wrong, but I just, I'm, you know, work from home, man, nothing is better. I'm sorry, COVID was actually worth it. I'm gonna come out with a controversial take.

0:01:22 Tom: Oh, fuck.

0:01:33 Thomas: The millions of lives Lost were Worth it, because whenever I dress like shit now, everyone I'm sure is like, oh, well, people working from home nowadays ever Since COVID.

0:01:34 Eli: Working

0:01:35 Tom: Oh,

0:01:42 Eli: From Home.

0:01:43 Thomas: Yeah. And So I just wear, You know, because I always worked from home, so I'd always just wear, yeah, well, I'm talking about like kid pick up and drop off in the middle of the fucking morning, or whenever, the middle, middle Of dawn.

0:01:43 Eli: Yeah. Uh,

0:01:44 Tom: Yeah.

0:01:54 Eli: See, I dress up, I dress up for drop off and pick up because I, I'm like, not my son, not my boy, he doesn't, they Don't need to know about his papa, they don't need to, like, one of those weird Eugene O'Neill plays that nobody's read where the oh dad, papa puts his cane away before guests come over, that's how I, I change into fucking a half zip and I've got really nice jeans that fit. And I, you would think I am a put together person for the 14 seconds I put Max in. And then, and I'm literally, I will tell you, cause this exactly happened to me today. Today I had to drop them off and pick them up. So I dropped them off. I'm in my half zip, in my jeans, and I'll be like, oh, how's it going? Alana. So good to see you. Can't wait for Hanukkah. Right. And because the thing is, like, that could be bad For him. I don't want this to visit

0:02:02 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. That's

0:02:42 Eli: Upon a Hit. I've Made These choices And Then I dropped Max off, and then I sat in the car and ate three 7-Eleven pies in a row, just, just, Just

0:02:43 Thomas: Fair. That's fair. I Do that Too. You

0:02:53 Tom: 7

0:02:54 Thomas: Go To telephone Booth, and unlike you, do the opposite of Superman, you got a Telephone booth, you Come out And you're Just like baggy fucking, well,

0:02:54 Tom: -Eleven pies.

0:02:58 Eli: Yes. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I just go in there and I jerk off, exactly, I just, like, a just a monster, and I know, I know, it was horrifying because I'm doing it in the parking lot, like a fucking car that I am, and a child walked by and I watched him be like, ah, the man's Pastries. Why, yes.

0:03:21 Tom: Yeah,

0:03:20 Thomas: I'm Just so lucky, because what has also happened is, is now a lot of clothing that used to be looked at as, I don't know, fucking pajamas, is now just clothing. Did you, you know this? You can just wear, yeah, leisure. I just wear that shit. That's, it's the best thing that ever happened to me. Cause people are like, yeah. I have to, I still, to this day, I think I'm doing a crime. Like I'll ask Lydia. It's been, it's been years of this where I'll put on these, you now, like whatever these fucking pants that they call them are now, what do they even call them? They're like pajama pants, but they're tighter now. So athletic wear.

0:03:36 Eli: Leisure Wear Baby. Yeah.

0:03:37 Tom: Well, yeah, that's.

0:03:56 Eli: Athletic Wear. Lulu Lemons.

0:03:59 Thomas: Yeah, I'll put that on and I'll be like, can I can I just wear this? Like, do I get to is that weird? Because part of my mind still thinks I'm committing like a sex crime. Like I'm like I'm going out and I'm a I'm a flasher, you know, like that's what I feel like because I'm wearing pajama pants like because that's obviously what they are. But no, society has decided this is fine. And frankly, that's great. Like what a fucking whatever society decides. All right. Cool with me. That means I get To wear the easiest to to put on comfortable, not a pain in the ass clothing. I love it. It's great. So I don't look, you know, maybe that disheveled because society changed for me.

0:04:00 Eli: Obviously.

0:04:09 Eli: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:04:34 Tom: Society. Oh yeah. That's what all the kids, when I dropped my, uh, steps on off at high school, like high school kids are walking to school and they're, they're straight up in sweatpants and pajama pants. And like, that's it. They're just like, fuck it. Like none of this is worth it. We're not zero effort involved in this, in this outfit.

0:04:41 Thomas: Yeah, it's like sweatpants.

0:04:53 Thomas: I think it's cool now. I think that that's actually they, you know, I think I bet you it's a ton of effort. I bet that, you know, no matter what it is for teenagers. Oh, OK.

0:04:59 Eli: They're ironing and ruffling the sweatpants you know

0:05:05 Tom: That'S it. You know

0:05:05 Thomas: Look, well, Here's all I'm saying. I bet there's a lot of thought put into it for most of these teenage kids, because you're not going to take away from teenagers that feeling of like, fuck, what do I wear? That's going to impress the that the I'm interested in. Like, what do I do? How do I do that? You know, like, that's most of that's most of teenagers.

0:05:19 Eli: Thomas Here's my question to completely derail us but still on the topic, are you gonna let Phoebe wear those sweatpants that say juicy on the tush, because I'm not a prude, I'm non-approved, and I want Max to feel sexually liberated in all the ways that he is but honestly, if he wanted to wear the juicy ones, I'd be like, like, hey, buddy, nope, that was daddy's line, we found it.

0:05:24 Thomas: Mm hmm. Sure. Oh, man. So he can wear those. Yeah.

0:05:46 Thomas: So we have we talked about this on the show? I actually this is one where I actually think maybe it'll be a bonus, But I would like to include the missuses or something, because I genuinely don't know the between, OK, what's appropriate to say Phoebe's body, Phoebe choice. And, well, this is going to be like, let's say it's like a fucking 13 year old Phoebe really sexualizing herself in a way. Is that OK? And I genuinely do not know. And I am kind of just my feeling is I am not in charge and Lydia is fucking in charge. I don't know. I have no idea.

0:05:46 Eli: No.

0:05:47 Tom: Yeah.

0:06:12 Eli: Yeah.

0:06:19 Tom: Would be a great topic to bring the ladies in on cause

0:06:21 Eli: Went

0:06:20 Thomas: Yeah, we should do that.

0:06:21 Tom: Yeah

0:06:22 Eli: Through this with my sister, because my sister started going to Forever 21, I don't know if you've been to a fuck, because I, there was a 12 year period where I didn't go into a clothing store and then I went into a closing store and it's just like, it's and then the section for like tweens, they'll have t-shirts that say like slut or like daddy's girl. And I'm if if you're wearing a shirt that, if a stranger came up and called you that thing, I'd beat them to death with a shovel, I don't think you should

0:06:22 Tom: 12

0:06:29 Thomas: No, I haven't.

0:06:34 Tom: Years fucking Christ

0:06:43 Thomas: Oh boy. Yeah. Yep.

0:06:51 Tom: Yeah I don't

0:06:53 Eli: Wear I feel

0:06:53 Thomas: That's, I feel like that's a good rule. I feel like that that's

0:06:55 Eli: I feel

0:06:56 Tom: Feel like that's

0:06:57 Eli: Like those parents you know, those crazy people who stand outside drag shows and they're like, yeah, corrupting, arch, that's me, but it's American Eagle and I'm by myself, I'm just like, okay, this is inappropriate and

0:06:57 Thomas: Why

0:06:57 Tom: Yeah yeah yeah no

0:07:05 Thomas: It's so sensitive of a thing is, because I know that the three of us, don't, like, the last thing I want to be is a dad telling his daughter, not, you know, like, I don't want to be that, but there is some stuff where you're like, I don't know, am I crazy? That, that doesn't seem good yeesh

0:07:21 Tom: I I my stepdaughter is uh 11 going on 17, and like, she is, she's real interested, she's getting real interested in clothes and like buying her own clothes, and like, dressing is like a real important part of her life right now, she's in that middle school space where she's learning to develop her own style, and like, we're, we push back, like, she, she, she bought a skirt that was a little short, it was kind of like a tartan plaid kind of, like, you know, could, like, go kind of schoolgirl-esque, she actually dresses more kind of goth, I guess would be the way she would describe it, it's a little different than goth from when we were kids in the 90s, but not much.

And then she wants to put on these tights, and I'm like, no, you're not wearing a short skirt and tights, you are 11, that's not, and her mom is just like, nope, that is not, you got to figure something else out, you wear leggings under that, but you're not walking around in a skirt and like thigh high tights, that's not, you're 11 years old, like, you're gonna attract attention, you can't handle attracting

0:08:22 Tom: Right now

0:08:19 Thomas: Yeah

0:08:22 Eli: That's even tougher with goth kids, because we haven't talked about this in the air, but you have two goth kids, right? There are two. Two of your kids are goth, which is an entirely different kind of wear, which I have a lot of questions about, right? So like some of it is S&M gear, right, it's just like straight up S&M gear is part of, is part of goth outfits, and so if your kid

0:08:27 Tom: Yeah yeah yeah

0:08:38 Thomas: That's fair

0:08:42 Tom: My stepson goes to school in a full gimp mask and like I think that's a little with pajama pants, you would think that'd be a little off but

0:08:45 Eli: Yeah,

0:08:44 Thomas: Yeah yeah dress up for your gimping, you know, dress for the gimp job you want, not the boy

0:08:50 Eli: But some Some of them, seriously, they're wearing like, I'm

0:08:48 Tom: Yeah the gimp job, you have, well

0:08:56 Eli: Telling you, if turns out to be a goth, which his babysitter is desperately trying to turn him into, I've got to be very, I mean, I don't know. I'm going to be worried.

0:09:01 Thomas: Well we've already decided our sons are gonna fuck each other, so, hmm which ones that, yeah, we got into the leather daddy look, we'll see, figure it out

0:09:08 Eli: That's right. Yeah, exactly.

0:09:13 Tom: Guys, we have no world with this person, because you, there's nothing you can do as a guy, you're a male body is this entirely functional thing, like, it's just like, it, it's made to haul in groceries, that's it, like, like, there's nothing I can wear that's going to be like, well, that's that's

0:09:16 Thomas: Yeah yeah but but God damn it, I can haul in so many. Have you seen how many groceries I can all in, though? Fucking.

0:09:29 Tom: Like my my body's value is entirely functional. It's like it doesn't look good, but it can it can haul a lot of groceries. That's what it does. It doesn't.

0:09:31 Eli: Grocery hauling machine.

0:09:32 Thomas: Yeah. Grocery based. Yeah.

0:09:40 Tom: It's very unattractive

0:09:40 Eli: See, that's why I don'T haul groceries is because I look too good.

0:09:41 Tom: To see.

0:09:45 Eli: I'm

0:09:44 Thomas: Yeah. Well, and that's the thing is like there's very legitimate concerns of like, well, you don't police boys clothing like this. And it's like, yeah, but it doesn't the same thing doesn't happen, though. I don't you know what I mean? Like, what do you what would if there was a boy's equivalent? Equivalent, I would like, I would do the same thing with Arlo if he was wearing, like you say, I don't know, some fucking S and M gear at the age of 10. I don'T know what it would be, but yeah, like I would, I WOULD probably have concerns.

0:09:56 Tom: Right. Yeah, but yeah, but boys, boys based on their clothes won't communicate the same message inadvertently to fucking creeps, because girls are objectified by creeps yeah in in ways that you have to be vigilant for

0:10:20 Eli: Adults I

0:10:15 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, and so that's the line. I can't, I shouldn't have even mentioned this topic because I do really want to talk about it with with the missuses because I just, I DON'T, that's my feelings. Like, I Don'T think I'M the decision maker here. Like ,I'M, oh

0:10:27 Tom: Yep

0:10:31 Eli: I don't want to involve the missuses, and I'll tell you why. I don't, one, I don't care for them very much, two, two, this is Dear Old Dads, this is about our opinions, and we can, we can't, here's the thing.

0:10:39 Tom: You liar.

0:10:48 Eli: We can never draw a line about what we know, what we don't know, because that would would be implying that we ever knew anything

0:10:48 Tom: Yeah that's

0:10:53 Thomas: Yeah, that'S true. We could never do a show. We We could never do a show again because every episode would be like, well, we should have had. That's true. Yeah, that's a good point.

0:10:55 Eli: Right

0:10:54 Tom: True that three minutes long and be like welcome to Dear Old Dads, we're shrugging and that's the show

0:11:02 Thomas: Yeah. All right. Well, but then, okay, I will at least caveat it with I don't want to be the main decision maker, but this is Dear Old Dads. So I'm not going to be a decision maker. We can talk about how we process these feelings as dads. How about that? What do you think?

0:11:04 Tom: Right,

0:11:16 Eli: Also you don't want to be sad sack dad whose kid is wearing something that they're very obviously uncomfortable with, and they're just like, okay honey, make sure don't forget to bro, I'll carry you, oh, I'll curry your KKK hood with you honey, just, you know, whatever the kids are wearing these days, because we all knew that dad too, right? Right? We all knew that dad growing up, right?

0:11:36 Thomas: Yeah, there's such a thing as being too supportive as a parent. I feel like.

0:11:39 Eli: Yes.

0:11:40 Tom: Yeah, yes You've got to draw a line, they don't know how to draw fucking lines, they don't know where their safety starts and stops, that's kind of our job, you know, is to step in and be like, you know what, I want you to be comfortable, I want you to self-express, it's important, but not, not like that, you're 11.

0:11:40 Thomas: Yeah.

0:11:57 Tom: You're Eleven.

0:11:57 Eli: And the problem is I think that the outside world often takes a meta narrative and they insert it into your parent child relationship, right? They'll be like, you don't tell women how to dress. And I'm like, no, I don't. Tell women how address. I tell my child who's poopy tushy. I was wiping three years ago, how to address like, this is not, I get, Hey, I'm all On your side. If you want to come over here into the Twitterverse and talk about us as adults, adults can wear whatever the fuck they want and my child is included in that when my child is a full grown adult, he can walk out

0:12:08 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, that's fair.

0:12:18 Tom: No.

0:12:25 Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm not going to tell someone else's child, by the way. Like, I'm going to be over here being like, hey, your daughter looks a little too slutty. Like, the fucking busybody parent. Don't you find that so fucking creepy? There is nothing creepier as a tell. And this is happened to probably all three of us. I'm sure if even if we haven't heard the story, no, several women, you know, who were then girls that this has happened to where they were fucking innocently wearing something in fucking seventh grade. And then their male math teacher like like, that's too provocative. So you're announcing that you are finding this seventh grader too hot. That's what you are now.

0:12:32 Eli: Right exactly never never ever

0:12:33 Tom: Yeah or a pine on that yeah no yeah right yeah

0:13:07 Eli: Yes absolutely

0:13:08 Thomas: That's which you are announcing. Do

0:13:08 Eli: Or or you could have full grown women be like, she's distracting the boys. And it's like, like, Jesus, could you betray your sex any harder, ma'am? Yeah, no, those dress, I don't know about you guys, we had a dress code and we like, this is fucking insane to describe, I'm, I can't believe the words that are coming out of my mouth, we had a teacher who would stand by the door of our middle school and make the girls put their arms by their sides and make sure their skirt was long enough If I'm just now realizing, if I saw that today, like if I was walking and I saw some guy being like, let me make sure your skirt is long enough, I'd be like, hey, I'm gonna kill this guy, does he work here, I'm still killing him, I just need to know who, the cops you're calling side will be on super

0:13:34 Thomas: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

0:13:50 Thomas: Well, but at the same time, so we had that and it was because our specific age in the 90s, girls started wearing shorts that were thongs like they start the, you know, the a little shorts that, like where the legs are so not existent that it's not even shorts. That was at my school. And so they're like, well, it's got to at least be a little bit shorts, you know, and I was in a very conservative area, and still it wasn't that bad. Like, I think weirdly in my conservative area, the schools were like, they had a lot of liberal teachers, so it wasn't as bad as you might think. But I don't know how I feel about that, because like, I don't know, man, what is the line? Like, if you're, if you have these, I don't know, adolescent girls and they're wearing shorts that effectively become thongs, is that cool? Or should somebody at the school be like, hey, don't, I don't know. I actually don't

0:14:00 Eli: Shorts yeah I don't think

0:14:37 Thomas: Know.

0:14:37 Eli: Someone. I don't think anyone at the school should, I think parents at home, again, this is, is the thing, is like, it's got to be your kid, it's gotta, I can't imagine a situation where it's appropriate for anyone to tell another person's kid what to wear unless it's like a t -shirt with hate speech on it, because I will, I will tell you as someone who is in high schools on a regular basis, and I teach at performing arts high schools where the kids are very liberated, I have seen my students in some outfits that I'm just like, you are wearing a burka as far as I'm concerned I am, am not here to comment no

0:15:10 Thomas: But they're, yeah,

0:14:59 Tom: Right right yeah I will chime in with a separate sort of aside, because I also see, I see parents sort of like throwing up their hands, like, yeah, I don't feel comfortable, you know, like, they, you buy their clothes, you have more like you have, these, are these kids don't have fucking financial autonomy, you purchase their clothes, you can just buy clothes for them, that they should have input, put on that, and they should have some, but we don't allow kids perfect autonomy in any of the rest of their decision making, and you control the, your fucking Congress, you control the purse strings, just don't buy them shit.

0:15:25 Thomas: Yeah, that's true.

0:15:50 Thomas: Wait, so we never get to make a decision? Dang, we're not Congress.

0:15:52 Tom: Yeah. Right. Everything's a filibuster. Everything has been filibustered, but

0:15:53 Eli: I knew I shouldn't have married Kyrsten cinema

0:15:55 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Damn it. Daughter's going to be like, Hey, I have an executive action here. And that's the only way anything gets done anymore. And I'm like, fuck, I can't beat that. Damn it.

0:16:05 Tom: I I just, I have have no patience for that like fucking throw your hands up you're like ah what are you gonna do like it's how they want it's like you bought it you fucking is your credit card

0:16:09 Thomas: Yeah, that's true. That's true, Tom. Well, I was just going to say, Tom, when, when when somebody said there, there shouldn't be another person enforcing this, I was going to bring up the way kids work is once one of them has worn something, then they all want to go to whatever that thing is. If it's the most kind of, I don't know, for lack of a better word, extreme or like, you thing, then that kind of becomes something that a lot of the other kids look at as like, well, that's the baseline here. That's what we need to get to. And so like it becomes this arms race. But I think you're right that a lot of parents, I guess that must mean they just can't tell their kids no or something. Cause like,

0:16:15 Tom: Yeah

0:16:49 Eli: It's it's that they're not involved the the throw of their hands parents are always the ones who are like, look, I'm already going through it with her father, okay I don't need to do and And you're just like, oh, my God. Wow. So you bleached your skin, huh? You bleached the actual skin? Okay.

0:16:49 Thomas: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah,

0:16:57 Tom: Well it's it's also true that it is the job of adolescents to find boundaries by pushing on them. That's the job of growing up and it is the job of adults to help them find boundaries that are healthy and that that keep them safe and that make sense and that like communicate the right things and that act the right ways socially. So like their job is to push boundaries. And our job is to allow the right amount of flexibility to those boundaries and then push, when it's appropriate to do it. I see, I see a lot of like hand-wringing around like, well, you know, I don't want to tell my kid. No, I, you know, they, they want to buy this. Then it's like, well, you know, the word no exists for a fucking reason.

0:17:11 Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Yeah exactly.

0:17:41 Thomas: Yeah I'll have no problem telling my kid no. At least, yeah I'm glad like that level of my toxic upbringing is It's like, oh, I'll just be like, no, that's fine. I don't. That's not hard for me.

0:17:45 Tom: Yeah. Yeah, Like, I'm sorry, you know, you don't have money. So that's kind of a good thing. You don't have it. It kind of goes back to that autonomy responsibility thing. It's like, yeah, you're not fully responsible for this. You do not have like as long as I'm shouldering the entirety of that financial burden to buy your clothes, you don't know. You have like full autonomy. And then as kids get older and they start to have more of their own resources, I think naturally that boundary, it's OK for them to begin pushing on it and for there to be a that sort of back and forth conversation on that like that's that shit's fine where it becomes a problem is where it's like oh you know uh my uh nine-year-old wants to wear thongs in a midriff and you know I gotta buy it because uh the neighbor kid has it it's if you're not comfortable with it you don't have to do it

0:17:59 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

0:18:34 Eli: Yeah. I was going to say, if the neighbor kid has it, that's when I open up the dad's suitcase and I pull out the tried and true, if everyone jumped off a bridge, would you do it, too? I'm putting that on a stone. Bop, bop, bop, bap.

0:18:45 Tom: Yeah

0:18:41 Thomas: Yeah. Yep. There's some of those cliches where like, no, that works. That's good for God.

0:18:52 Eli: No, that cliche.

0:18:53 Tom: Yeah.

0:18:53 Thomas: You know, the one that I never, here's the thing that I didn't know I was going to be uttering. And I don't want to change topic. We can get back to it, but this is what I didn' know I would be saying 400 fucking times a day. It's, what did I just say? 400 times a day. Cause you can't help it. Cause when your kid does the exact thing where you're like, Hey, Arlo, don't, you know, stop throwing the Legos on the floor. And then he looks you in the eyes and throws the LegOS on the four. It's involuntary. I can't not be like, what Did I just said?

0:18:54 Eli: That's a...

0:19:08 Tom: Yeah.

0:19:24 Eli: Yeah. Yep.

0:19:26 Thomas: It's so hard. I've caught myself the other day. I was like, wow, I really, I say that like every five seconds, but I don't know what else to do because I did just fucking say it, yeah.

0:19:34 Tom: What?

0:19:34 Eli: What else do you do? Cause I literally had this conversation with Max the other day. Cause he's got a new thing. Whenever I put him on his shoulder, whenever I put them on my shoulders, he wants to pull my hair. Right. But sometimes I need to put him up. I need him on my shoulder for his safety or for your expediency. Right. So it's very easy to just be like, well, if he pulls your hair, take him off your shoulders. Yeah. But I got to get out of target. Right. So now I've got him in a fucking fireman's carry, pulling him out of Target because I'm trying to be a good parent. So the other thing, and it's so funny, this is so my problems as a dad. The other day he's pulling my hair. I was like, hey buddy, you gotta stop. And I took his hands and put them away from my head, and I was holding his hands. He was like, let go, let go of his hands.

Started to pull my hair again, and I brought him down, and I sort of sat him down. I was, okay buddy, I want you to understand that like I know that the other alternative for this is for me to hurt you so that like, you know what it feels like, and I don't want to do that. I'm

0:19:36 Tom: No.

0:19:55 Thomas: Yep. Wow. Yeah.

0:20:25 Eli: Never ever going to be okay with like hurting you back to make you understand this, so I need you to understand me. And my son might as well have been like, hey man, I have no fucking idea what you're talking about. I'm two, all right? Can you just what are you doing, are you using eye messages with me? Graham cracker, how's that? Graham crackers? He literally, he looked at me and he went, Five Little Chicks, which is the song he wants to hear on repeat because it was just, he just, I, there are times where my son is just like, oh, you're doing the thing where you communicate too much. Five little cheeks.

0:20:35 Tom: Yeah. I was going to say.

0:20:35 Thomas: Exactly. Yeah. Yep. Yep.

0:20:54 Eli: I would like to hear the song Five Little Shakes, and then he pulled my hair all the way to the car. I don't know what to say. I was just like, ow, ow. I guess

0:20:57 Tom: So,

0:20:54 Thomas: Yep. I I don't get to have hair. Yeah, I don't know, god.

0:21:03 Eli: I don't get to have, hey, jokes on him more and more by the second. Little kid's gonna be scrabbling at nothing in two and a half, another week, like the one I just had, and he's got nothing to hold on to, so

0:21:14 Thomas: You know, and just because we're on the topic, this is a random dad thing, or just parent thing, that I've wanted to just mention that I find so funny, okay, all three of you have been parents, what is the thing, and I, I want, I feel like this is universal, I'm just testing this, picture this, you've got a two, three-year-old in your hands right now, and you go to put them, you're carrying them, and you go to put them down on the ground, what happens, okay?

0:21:35 Eli: They crumple, they crumble to the ground, their legs give out from underneath them, they fall and their chin is drawn magnetically to the sharpest hardest surface possible.

0:21:48 Thomas: Dang, maybe it's just my kids. What are you, Tom, do you have any feeling of what happens when you do that? Yeah.

0:21:52 Tom: You sit down a little guy, I'm trying to remember.

0:21:54 Thomas: Let's say you're caring, yeah, you're sharing a toddler, a little kid, little four or five -year old, whatever, and you go to set them, them down on the ground. Okay. I guess it was just, I just, I was curious cause this happens every, this happens ever. Every single time. So that it's like a muscle, like I can feel the back pain when this happens, when I just mention it. So I was just curious that maybe it's just my kids every time I go to sit. So like picture, I'm carrying them. Like, I don't know, like a baby kind of, not like a piggyback or not, but like, I'm just kind of carrying a kid and they're a little bigger and I Go to put them, to place them on, you know, know, the things they use for standing and walking, their legs, their feet, and that every fucking time, they do a thing where they're like, "No, my feet can't touch the ground." Your kids don't do this to you? Yeah.

0:22:01 Tom: Remember I been so long I don't remember, there being, nothing sticks in my head oh yeah

0:22:13 Eli: Sure. Yeah. Side. Saddle. Yeah, no.

0:22:39 Tom: And they yeah they

0:22:40 Thomas: They They Monkey Onto You Yeah.

0:22:40 Tom: Got mad fucking like ab strength that is like pulled

0:22:42 Thomas: Because They're like Every No matter what the situation is, they go into a game that nobody taught them. They just both independently do the same thing. We're like, "Oh, you know what'd be fun right now?" Is As my dad is leaning over and all the tension is is on his lower back, like, know, because of the fulcrum or whatever the fuck the mechanics is. So his spine is just barely hanging on. Here's what I'll do. I'll not touch the ground where he's expecting me to touch the ground. I will pull my feet into my asshole so that there's no actual feet there and it wrecks my back every time. But it's really cute, but they do it every time I'm curious if any listeners have the same experience. I felt pretty universal to me because it, It started happening automatically and forever every 100% of the time. But maybe not. Maybe that's not universal. I don't know.

0:22:40 Eli: I

0:22:42 Tom: Yep yeah uh -huh no

0:23:29 Eli: Think

0:23:29 Tom: I remember I remember the same thing amon did that more than more than Finn did Finn was okay with being set down but Eamon would absolutely like you go to set him down and he would be like what if I cling to you with a muscle strength that belies my size and you're like what the fuck what is what is happening

0:23:34 Thomas: So funny. Yeah. And it's just for fun. They're not. Yeah. Like, it's a game. It's just a game for my kids. It wasn't like a.

0:23:48 Eli: Sounds.

0:23:48 Thomas: Yeah. You'll see, Eli. You might get there.

0:23:49 Eli: So. Nice. Nope.

0:23:50 Thomas: You might Get there.

0:23:45 Tom: Yeah

0:23:51 Eli: He just collapses to the floor like I've set down a pan of jello on its side and

0:23:54 Thomas: He's still a little young.

0:23:56 Tom: Passive resistance passive resistance go limp go limp

0:23:57 Eli: Uh, Yes. Literally. Literally.

0:24:00 Thomas: He's still a little young, he might need another year.

0:24:03 Eli: I'm bringing him to the next like training meeting I do for like social justice, like protests will be like, now you'll notice how my son has gone limp here. That's what you're going to want to do when the cops get there.

0:24:14 Thomas: Oh.

0:24:15 Tom: So neither one of you guys laments the of things to dress up for like you're like you'RE both you're bold happy with that this is yeah this is I

0:24:21 Thomas: No. This is you oh, this is all you. Oh,

0:24:24 Eli: I mean, I look, I will say I not only do I love dressing up, but also as a magician, I had to have a nice suit and know how to look good in a suit significantly before my personality caught up to that, right? I just had, there was an adult, literally my friend Matt, who was like 10, 15 years older than me, just took me suit shopping and he was like, you gotta, you look like an idiot. Because the first thing I did is I went to Goodwill and I bought tuxedo tails that I found there. And I was like I'm going to wear this and a t-shirt and he was like, I'll kill you with my bare hands, come on, nope. And so we went, we got like a real suit and we got it fitted at a tailor, he showed me how to wear it and all that stuff, I

0:24:24 Tom: OOF I miss it. And

0:24:32 Thomas: Yeah. Oh. Nice.

0:24:53 Tom: Oh, my God.

0:25:03 Eli: Love dressing up, I love dressy.

0:25:03 Thomas: Really? Because You're You've done a rant on the show about how you can't wear normal clothes for too long or you feel like you're losing your personality or whatever, uh,

0:25:06 Eli: No, so here's the thing, I can wear a suit, well, first of all, the best part about wearing a suit, and I, I don't want to be the guy who talks at a turn, best part of wearing a suite is that, um, my wife enjoys me in a suit, and So all of a sudden I am prime real estate, I get many of the smooch when I'm looking good. It, cause keep in mind that like, I'm not saying she's ever getting a prize winning. She's never winning a prize, but there's a difference between the penguin pants and the hollow inside t-shirt and like a pretty nice suit that I got at an actual store that fits my body. So I often feel so good from doing that. The other thing is whenever I'm wearing a suite, it almost always date night of some kind. So, I don't like the already in such a good mood. Cause I'm getting to go out on date night, right? Where

0:25:24 Thomas: -huh, there you go. Yes. Yep. Yep.

0:25:25 Tom: Yeah, I'll

0:25:39 Thomas: Yep. Yeah. Yep. Ah.

0:25:55 Eli: I don't like normal people clothes is like the drop-off pickup clothes, right, the thing that I'm wearing to drop Max off, that's, that, I mean, a terror about right because I'm just like, oh God, if I have to button buttons, I'm gonna be them, I'm the every button buttons away my personality ever further

0:26:01 Thomas: Gotcha.

0:26:13 Tom: Tell you a story when I really started to, it's not that I think I dressed badly before, but I really starting to put a lot more effort into dressing nicely when one time Haley and I were in Las Vegas and we were doing some people watching, we were at this place called Egg Slut, which is outstanding by the way, great sandwiches, we're at this Egg Slut is outstanding, so we're in this, in this Egg Slut.

0:26:30 Eli: Eggslut's great. It's called Eggslot.

0:26:32 Thomas: Egg Slut. Huh.

0:26:35 Tom: It's it's fucking great, I forgot what hotel it's in, um, forgot which of the hotels it's, but it's a hotel where the people watching is just, it's just an absolute delight, and I'll tell stories about that another time, but there's... there's just some awesome people watching that you can do there, so we're sitting there and we're, we're watching people walk by, and there's just this like sea of all kinds of different parts of humanity on display throughout this, this hotel in Las Vegas.

And we're eating our sandwiches and we're kind of chit chatting about the people that are walking by. And she made this observation that stuck with me. And I thought about that, like, watch the ladies walk by, ladies and their, and their guys walk by. And the ladies to a one with few exceptions had put so much more energy and so much more effort into looking nice than the guys did. And she felt like that was a really unfair standard that women are held to, this standard where, you know, they go out, they're just in the world in general. And the expectation is that they need to kind of look nice to go out and do damn near anything in the world, other than, you don't know, maybe go to the 7-Eleven to pick something up, you know?

And men, even when we're sort of like out in the world and we're with partner, our on our arm, the standard is so low. The standard is just so low, and I remember thinking, like, yeah, that is kind of fucked up. That is kind of fucked up to not put in the effort for your partner to look attractive, you know, like that effort is being put in on the other side of the coin, you, I, appreciate I the effort. I genuinely appreciate the effect.

That when, when she puts in the effort to do her hair and to like make herself look nice, I should absolutely learn. I thought to myself, like, I'm never going to, I'd never want to hear that said about me ever when I'm walking arm and arm with my wife, I never want her to think, wow, he does not put in the effect effort. Like he doesn't really care to impress me today. And I thought about that, and I've put a lot more effort into

0:26:35 Eli: Yeah.

0:26:38 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:28:32 Tom: Buying clothes that fit, clothes that are stylish, clothes. And there was a time in my life where I didn't care at all. There was a Time in my Life where my joke was like, I don't know, as long as it covers my genitals, I'm happy. I would get clothes, and I wouldn't even try them on. I'd go, and if it's too big, it'll be fine. I'll cinch a belt over it. And I didn't care at all because there a time in my life where I didn't feel like there was any benefit looking nice professionally or personally. And I will say it is a big benefit to you in your professional life, in your relational life to go out in the world. And I've really come along, uh, come across the other direction. Like I, I think it's important to look nice. I wake up, I work from home, but I wake up, put on a nice pair of jeans. I put on an ice shirt,

0:28:32 Thomas: Yeah. We've talked about this Yeah.

0:29:21 Thomas: Okay.

0:29:21 Tom: Like that, like a tuck in shirt, but I try to look, I shower every day. I do my hair every day, all of it because I want to look nice for my wife.

0:29:21 Thomas: Well now you're going too far this is too, you're working from home and you're getting dressed for what, oh my god Eli, let's quit the show you and I

0:29:30 Eli: Yeah. Uh, Tom, me and Thomas are gonna step off for a side podcast, we called uh, the two sloppy dads, but you go ahead and finish this as sort of a monologue solo project

0:29:36 Thomas: Yeah. No,

0:29:40 Tom: Oh, I think it, I think it is nice. I enjoy doing it for her.

0:29:41 Eli: Yeah

0:29:42 Thomas: No. I, it's funny, Tom, there's, I have have so much in common with your journey. I, if you remember, I did a, one of the bonus stories I did was like how unattractive I used to make myself by buying just bags of shirts from Target and then having that be my shirt. Um, I couldn't agree more. I, there's, there's a couple things going on, for one, there's like the, the double standards in terms of men and women. And you know, that's an interesting issue.

Like there's the whole thing where the, you know know, the newscasters, the the man wore the same suit every day for a year and nobody noticed, and then like there was woman has to wear change a dress every single day, the man wears the same thing, and some of that stuff is of two minds about it because there's certain, there's a lot of things about it where I'm like, well I don't care about, like there's no way most men care about a lot of the ways that women feel pressured to look, they just don't, like it's actually other women and doing it most of the time, doing the pressuring.

But at the same time, I think you're coming at it from a great direction, Tom, which is, well, we can also, on our end as men, put in a little more fucking effort, you know, and

0:29:53 Tom: Yeah. Yeah.

0:30:45 Thomas: To kind of like make up that gap of like, all right, it's never going to be the same because like men and women are just not looked at the same by society. They just aren't. But speak

0:30:52 Eli: Until someone waxes our assholes, we'll never know the pain women have been through and isn't

0:30:57 Thomas: For yourself. No, I'm just kidding.

0:30:57 Tom: Yeah. And I can't, but yeah, I, I I think of that way. And so I I've come to the place where I really kind of enjoy. I I actually bought clothes yesterday. I went, I went online and was like, Oh, you know what? I should freshen up some of my wardrobe for the season. And then I went online yesterday and I bought a handful of things. I've probably got 30 pairs of shoes in my closet. I, yeah ,I, I love, I like to dress nice now. I like too, like, cause I've got, I've I've got a reason in my, in my life.

0:31:17 Thomas: Holy fucking shit. Wow. That's cool.

0:31:24 Tom: I've got a raison where it matters to me to look nice, you know?

0:31:19 Eli: And

0:31:25 Thomas: Cool.

0:31:27 Eli: And... Isn' it weird the toxicity that's grown up around that, like, I'm not gonna lie. When you were like, "Oh, I did some clothes shopping for myself," I was like, gay. That was literally the unbidden, horrible thought. And look, I know that's wrong, but that was the thought in my head. My brain went, gay, that's what a man who loves other men would do. I am 35.

0:31:28 Tom: Ha ha ha ha!

0:31:47 Tom: What? Ha ha!

0:31:49 Eli: I've attended two gay weddings and officiated one of them. And my first instinct when you were, like, I bought new shirts the other day and they made me feel handsome was to be like, that is for homosexuals, the shirt, having...

0:32:00 Thomas: Well, but isn't it funny because that's also, it's true? Like, who has a lot of gay friends, it did start to make me feel like, oh, what am I doing? Like, I didn't know. It's like someone else has the same fucking, but that looks way better and cleaner than you're like, you have the same model making model and year of car, and you pull up next to someone and you look at theirs and you're like, oh, what the, the fuck? That looks great. How did you, how do you get that? Cause he's like, gay men, the gay men in my life, I'm like, how do you get this canvas to look like that?

Like, that seems like you, you just make it look better. I don't know how to do that. Like, cause like, we're not, we're socialized for the most part, straight men to, to put that thought and effort. So what I was going to ask Tom is I get the, I think it's cool that you have that drive now. And I have some of of that too. I do like dressing up. And as I shared in that last episode, the number one reason I think similar to you, Tom, is I don't have any fucking self -esteem, but I don't want my wife to be like, Oh, I'm walking around with this fucking schlub. Like, I don't want to feel, I don't want her to

0:32:32 Tom: Yeah. Yeah.

0:32:35 Eli: And...

0:33:01 Thomas: Feel bad. Like I want her to be like this. I don't want her feeling bad. I want her to like, okay, maybe I can look good so that she'll feel good that she's with somebody that looks good. That's the best I can do. And so, but here's what I want to ask you, Tom. Where's that part where you instantly figured out how to do that? Because you've

0:33:08 Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, Lord. No, it took, it took a long time.

0:33:16 Thomas: 30 pairs of shoes. What the fuck? I have one pair that I like and everything else is like, I don't know. I'll get a pair and I'm like, this pair sucks and it's uncomfortable. I don't like it.

0:33:22 Tom: Dude, I was exactly the same. I, like, I never understood the idea of having more than two pairs of shoes. One to mow the lawn and one to not mow the lawn that was what I had for like

0:33:31 Thomas: Yeah, one pair of Crocs to mow the lawn and one pair Crocs to pick up the kids in. That's what I have.

0:33:33 Tom: Yeah for the, and I remember asking my buddy who's a really good dresser. I've got, I've gotta, my buddy, uh, Circle, is a really great dresser, remember? He's always got like, he's got these great shoes, and I was like, I wouldn't even know how to buy, it's like, it's, it's, I, I didn't even understand where to start. And I think that that's entirely fair. I'll tell you some things that help me is with my wife, because, because she would give me feedback. She'd put, I put something on, she'd be like, "That looks nice on you." You know, that felt good to have that positive reinforcement.

0:34:01 Thomas: God, it's so fun. I love doing that because they are seeing a world that I'm not seeing. You know, like I'll put two things together and she'll be like, those don't go together. I'll be like, that's magic. Whatever you just said, I don't understand, but I believe you. Cool. Cool. You're seeing, you have a different like range of perceptions than I do.

0:34:02 Tom: Right. Yeah. And, real, it's, it's like, it's, it's like you with your music. Like you hear things I don't hear. Right? And I, and For a long time fashion and like trying to look nice was kind of the same way, but also I recognize like kind of, but sort of like, I remember it It wasn't like I looked like a schlub and then like Haley like fixed it.

0:34:38 Thomas: Hmm.

0:34:38 Tom: Like I think back to like, you know, when we were dating, I put an effort and I don't want to stop putting an effort. I want to increase my effort as we continue our relationship. Right. I want it because I want to continue to be like, hey, as we get older, I'm going to look worse. I better I'm gonna get older and like shittier. I'm I'm to try to like do other things to make myself continue to show you that I care. Care. So I went to sites like men's fashion advice on Reddit to check out and look at pictures and be like, One I did is I bought clothes from somebody who comes out.

Now, this is a super privileged thing to do. But if you can do it, I had a friend of mine whose mom had a business where she'd come out and measure you And then you buy clothes for your body. So I've got a body type that is very difficult to go to a store and buy clothes. If I go to a regular store, I can't, for the most part, find literally anything that doesn't look insane on me. So it's going to, it's gonna be like way too tight in like my shoulders

0:34:49 Thomas: Yeah. Yes. Interesting.

0:35:21 Thomas: Hmm? Yeah. Yep.

0:35:40 Tom: Or whatever it's, or it's Going to be, there's an enormous blouse of a fucking thing. That's like a tent that I can can't super hard to.

0:35:40 Thomas: Yep there. Same. God, I've long had two options when it comes to shirts. I can have a shirt that fits my shoulders comfortably and therefore goes down to my knees like a dress. Or I could have a shirt that is the right length and roughly size and then that means the shoulders are so cramped that my armpits eventually eat the fabric that of the shirt and they just go like and over time I don't have the the sleeves go away because my armpitz have actually consumed them over time. It's the worst. Oh,

0:35:47 Tom: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

0:36:16 Tom: I had some clothes made for me that were that fit perfectly.

0:36:20 Thomas: You're gone again. Oh, I was wondering, I was just thinking, like, man, Eli's been kind of quiet. Dang.

0:36:21 Tom: Oh, no. Oh, I didn't know you were gone. I'm sorry.

0:36:26 Thomas: Oh, like say a podcasting buddy who uh, oh, I

0:36:26 Eli: I was I oh,

0:36:26 Tom: Thing that I think you can do if you got a buddy that dresses nice, go shopping with your buddy. I know that might sound like a little yeah, if you're a gay friend that dresses like you were just talking about, like come

0:36:37 Thomas: Thought that was Tom just trying to get Tom was trying to get us to like, yeah, if you have a buddy who just has some fucking fashion sense and could tell you as your friend, and you record with him every week, he could definitely help you if you have anybody, if anybody's like that, we

0:36:40 Tom: Shopping with me, come on. You know

0:36:44 Eli: I would I'm gonna add a Patreon goal, one dollar for Tom to take me shopping. He will he'll He will tear his credit card in half and walk into the sea. Four minutes I'll be humping a mannequin and he'll be like, nope, never mind, not all ships can be saved. Ain't

0:36:53 Tom: Would fucking love to do it.

0:37:06 Thomas: Do need to do, we've talked about these joke Patreon goals that should be real, but we should do like one thing for each of us, like I'm going gonna teach you guys how to throw a ball. Tom can teach me how to get dressed, what, what, Eli can teach me some fucking magic. I don't know what,

0:37:16 Tom: God. Oh. I

0:37:22 Eli: Analingus. I Don't wonder what the fuck, why does, where, this weird, that setup was always going to result in me not knowing a thing, not fair. I

0:37:22 Tom: Don't learn a magic trick.

0:37:32 Tom: You joke about the mannequin thing, though, but that is actually something that I did a few times.

0:37:37 Thomas: Yeah, Patreon goal, how to eat ass, yeah,

0:37:38 Eli: Had to eat ass master class, no,

0:37:43 Tom: So is it the alphabet again, do you do the alphabet for ass is it

0:37:46 Thomas: The Greek the

0:37:47 Eli: See Tom you fool, you Fool, you, the end of this, this, I end up eating poop, Tom, this is why it's why

0:37:47 Tom: Oh, there you go. Nice, nice.

0:37:47 Thomas: Greek alphabet, the Greke alphabet, yeah, Tom who's just trying to toast out of my clothes, yeah, yeah,

0:37:59 Tom: That's okay.

0:38:01 Eli: All sharing our skills here, oh, I'm sorry, sorry, I interrupted Tom's bespoke t-shirts for one of the most pleasurable sexual acts you can dip someone into a pool of white hot sex, but no, Tom, by all means, tell us about buying a medium rather than a large.

0:38:19 Tom: To get back, I did, did absolutely go to department stores though and just buy shit off the mannequin, I just walk up to a mannequin that I like to be, like, I don't know anything, and I go find a salesperson and be like, I kind of like what that mannequin looks like, can I buy that mannequin's clothes and

0:38:31 Thomas: Can I fuck it? I mean, yeah, I'd have as close.

0:38:32 Tom: Yeah, can I, and they would say no every time. It's fine, those places.

0:38:36 Thomas: Yeah.

0:38:35 Eli: Every time, yeah, is crazy because they guarantee that you're gonna like it there and then they start to walk it back and they're like, oh, we meant the suits.

0:38:42 Tom: So started that way, you, that was helpful, yeah.

0:38:45 Eli: Other mistake that people make is they get a bespoke, I don't know if we've talked about this, but like, don't buy a a bespoke suit as your first suit. This is what I did, and of course there's the famous story of me filling it with shit, um, you start to dress nice, you don't want to go from zero dollars to all your dollars as far as budget is concerned.

0:38:52 Thomas: Ooh.

0:39:03 Tom: We'll

0:39:04 Thomas: And we were really ill-served by growing up in the 90s because all of fashion in the 90s was looseness-based. Isn't that weird? Have you guys had, I know we're slightly different ages, but like, have you had to go through that process? And I think I'm through it now. I'm better now.

But every style in the nineties, everything about the style that I was told as a kid was cool, cool, the opposite is now cool, and and you know what now is actually correct, I at least have the presence of mind and the emotional intelligence to realize, oh, we were just wrong back then, because everything in the 90s was looseness based, was like the whole thing where in the 90's basketball, you guys didn't play basketball, but basketball shorts had to be fucking pants, because, and honestly, I think there might have been, at least for my school, my redneck school, there's a lot of homophobia involved, because anything short, then you were gay or whatever. Like there's, a lot, a, that's a, a. A lot of what men, at least in my experience, a lot. My thoughts about clothing and Eli articulated it, is based on like gay bashing. Honestly. It's like, that.

0:39:12 Tom: Yes.

0:39:29 Eli: Yeah, so much

0:40:07 Thomas: Men enforce.

0:40:08 Eli: Of it. So much of the clothing as a straight man is just like, how do I not look gay, which is a crazy thing to say, right?

0:40:10 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, it's sad. Yeah?

0:40:15 Eli: The way you not look gay is you don't actively have sex with other men in public, that is the only way to, but then you're like, which one's the gay ear, remember the gay year, so be like, don't get an earring in the wrong ear.

0:40:15 Tom: Yeah, it is.

0:40:28 Eli: Right if you get an hearing in the left ear, that means you get, that's how they signal each other.

0:40:20 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, what? Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's so sad.

0:40:27 Tom: Oh, earring in the right ear. Yeah. Yeah that's

0:40:34 Thomas: I hope that's gone. That's got to be gone, right?

0:40:36 Tom: Totally gone.

0:40:37 Eli: I hope it's gone, they're z are all gay. It

0:40:37 Tom: That's totally gone. I, I

0:40:42 Thomas: I'm actually sad remembering. I haven't thought about this in a while. Yeah, you're right. Like fucking every comment among straight men in that age was just, or straight boys was just like, how do you not look gay? Or you look gay. God ,that is so sad, oh

0:40:55 Tom: Fucking hated shopping when I was a kid. My, when I was a kid, I was a heavy kid and my, uh, lack of a better term, step-mom, I don't know, like she was in my life, she she would she was the one that would take us clothes shopping, my brother and I, when we were young people, and then into our early teens, um, she would be the one who would take us close shopping, and she was like, she's kind of harsh about the whole thing, and I was a bigger kid, and she would buy clothes for my brother, like, go through the regular clothes section, and then she would always be like, for you we have to go to the husky section.

0:41:05 Eli: Dad's casual acquaintance

0:41:29 Tom: And I would

0:41:30 Thomas: No, geez.

0:41:29 Eli: Husky section, this is something I thank God will never have to explain to my children, oh, yeah, no, they used to have a fat shaming section of the store with entirely different clothes, many of which referenced the fact that I was heavier.

0:41:33 Tom: Yep, yep, Yep. Well, and she would always make comment like I would I would go and she'd be like, you're a lot bigger than you were last year. I hope we can find something or, you know, she'd you know. We'd go through and she

0:41:44 Thomas: Wow. Jeez. Ouch. Wait, who is this asshole? What?

0:41:50 Eli: Yeah, this Is the dad's causal acquaintance, yeah.

0:41:55 Tom: Yeah.

0:41:56 Thomas: No, really? You're still, oh, the one that would turn over?

0:41:56 Tom: And I yeah, she she was pretty rough. She was pretty tough. And I hated by and that was part of why I hated buying clothes for such a long time. I hated it.

0:42:00 Thomas: Oh, man. That's awful. Yeah.

0:42:05 Tom: And she would say things, you Know, be like me. You know, if you don't lose that weight, you are not going to be able to make any friends. You know, people aren't going to like you. And so you'd go through and I'd buy clothes. It would be this like low grade kind of traumatic, shitty experience that really made me disinterested because the 90s fat shaming was normalized.

0:42:09 Thomas: Holy Holy shit, Tom.

0:42:20 Thomas: Did your dad expose you to someone who was fat shaming you constantly? Is that okay? OK, or OK,

0:42:27 Eli: Yeah.

0:42:27 Tom: Fat shaming Was like super in

0:42:27 Eli: It was Just part Of it.

0:42:29 Thomas: I'm I'm the only one who wasn't really ever a fat kid. But like, are you telling me that's a normal behavior for a child to Jesus

0:42:30 Tom: The 80s and 90s. Like, yeah, Why do you think there was a Yeah, 100%.

0:42:36 Eli: So normal.

0:42:37 Thomas: Christ? All right.

0:42:38 Tom: Yeah.

0:42:39 Eli: Dude, the husky section itself shamed you. Like, cause like my mom never fat shamed me. She was very good about it, but like, it was obvious that I was fat. The other kids told me I was flat. And Tom, tell me if this was your experience, the fat shaming, the clothes in the husky session often had fat shamy catchphrases on them. Like I'm just big boned or wait for my, here's my heart attack.

0:42:58 Thomas: Oh, yeah.

0:42:58 Tom: Yeah. I'm here for the pizza or whatever. Yeah, like, yeah.

0:43:01 Eli: And you'd be like, Jesus, I'm seven, please, please.

0:43:03 Thomas: Oh my God. Wow.

0:43:06 Eli: I just want a Michael Jordan. I remember so clearly, I don't know when, though, because I never liked sports, but I remember so clearly fixating on wanting a jersey.

0:43:06 Thomas: All right,

0:43:15 Eli: I wanted a jersey. And they didn't have one in my size except for like fucking, you know, Olympian bronze medal runner-up Greg Louganis or whatever the fuck it was, and I came to school and everyone was like, "Who's that?" And I was like, "I don't know." They were, were like, "Then why are you wearing it?" I was like, "Because I desperately want people to like me."

0:43:14 Thomas: Yeah, yeah

0:43:31 Tom: Ha ha ha, yeah.

0:43:37 Thomas: To Detlef Schrempf jersey.

0:43:39 Eli: Yeah, exactly. Oh, it was fucking horrible. And they they also when you were a kid. I don't, this was also part of the husky thing, Tom, tell me if this was true, of you, you didn't get regular jeans, you got jeans with elastic waistband. Oh,

0:43:38 Tom: And The Yeah. Oh,

0:43:40 Thomas: Oh, that's going to be funny for four of our listeners. Listeners.

0:43:57 Tom: No, I got, I got regular jeans that I would have to cinch with a belt, so she'd be like, "We should buy this, an extra size up, and you just cinch them with a belt, so that way if you get bigger we don't have to buy more clothes," is what is what her, her take on it was, you know, and then if I didn't like something she'd, "Beggars can't be choosers," in the husky section, and I'm just like, cool.

0:44:16 Thomas: Jesus.

0:44:17 Tom: No, this is great, I love this.

0:44:08 Eli: That I can't yes oh

0:44:17 Thomas: Okay. Here's the thing. On one hand, Tom, I wasn't ever considered a fat kid. So I D I don't want to be like telling you how things are about that. Cause on, on the other hand, I Eli feel like Tom maybe minimizes things that have happened in his life. Do you have a parental figure be that fucking ruthless with you?

0:44:33 Thomas: I feel Like is not, that's not normal. That that's not like oh this was the 90s, like that's pretty extreme for the 90's.

0:44:33 Tom: Yeah

0:44:33 Eli: Yeah no, that's that's no bueno. That's the no, yeah, let me be very clear, the husky section was rough, but my mom wasn't like, "Here he comes." Now, to be fair, maybe she hadn't gotten her sex from your dad that month, you know, maybe she couldn't afford it, and that can making out cranky when

0:44:39 Thomas: Yeah, her

0:44:40 Tom: Yeah, right,

0:44:55 Thomas: Handshake, you're jonesing for a handshake, you know, you just, you'll say crazy things, but

0:44:59 Eli: You're chosen for a nice, firm handshake and you haven't gotten it, yeah.

0:45:03 Thomas: That's, oh, but that was, gonna say the, um, everything being the 90's, everything being looseness based, it took a while to realize, like, oh no, that looks like shit, God, when I watch documentaries about the 90s, especially like the, you know, sports ones, where that basketball influence, I don't know, know why that was the thing and we were all reacting to, like, we'd see pictures of basketball shorts from the 70s, now that was the opposite extreme, or those were like the ones where we wouldn't let our daughters yeah we wouldn't Let Our Daughters Wear Them, and how, yeah, practically speaking, where did the balls go, did they go in your own asshole?

0:45:12 Tom: All

0:45:12 Eli: Oh,

0:45:26 Tom: The shorty shorts, yeah, outside on

0:45:27 Eli: Where the balls are just hanging out yeah yeah,

0:45:34 Tom: The outside, they go entirely on the inside

0:45:34 Thomas: I yeah, I just, no, way, those shorts could contain balls, I don't understand, so not that, but like the 90s overreaction to all that, that was definitely an overreaction, and suits were baggy as fuck, why did we think baggy was cool? We thought baggy.

0:45:36 Tom: Yeah, oh, my god yeah they were I have, yep.

0:45:49 Thomas: Was like, you didn't care or you, you know, was it kind of grunge influenced sort of?

0:45:52 Tom: Yeah,

0:45:52 Eli: It was like rapper -y, right, it was like it was a racist mom's impersonation of like rapper clothes is like a racist door sign at a nightclub with the clothes are cool, you'd be like, "Well, that racist sign says that's how black people are dressing, so I guess that's what I'm gonna dress now."

0:45:55 Thomas: Yeah.

0:45:56 Tom: On that skater shit, that well, now, whole skater punk thing, that whole skater punk kind of thing was in like back when I was in school too, and that was enormously oversized stuff, and like, and I will say too, just as a tip for listeners, like, if you are bigger, by, and I didn't understand this for many, many years, like into my 30s, and like buying, buying clothes that are bigger than you are makes you look even bigger than you are. You can't like buying clothes. And I help, I help my son Finn with this because Finn's a little bit bigger and he's just kind of got a bigger overall build.

He's not fat, but he's got a big, bigger overall building. He's self-conscious about it. And for a long time, he was buying clothes way too big for him because he was super self-conscious about his body. And so I went out and I took him shopping and we spent hours just walking through and finding clothes and putting stuff on. I'm like, just trust me, if it fits, you'll look slimmer, if it fits your body you will look slimmer, but his inclination was to hide, and so was mine, my inclination was to hide

0:46:22 Thomas: But Yeah. Yeah. Right.

0:47:09 Tom: Behind these layers and layers of clothes, or like these huge oversized things, I was like, well, if the shirt's huge, you won't see how big I am, and it's like that actually doesn't work, it works in the opposite direction, it

0:47:10 Thomas: Right. Right.

0:47:11 Eli: Right, yeah, go before we go, important update, what were the buffalo's dying words to his children? Bye, son. Yeah.

0:47:35 Tom: I like that one.

0:47:38 Thomas: Should We right. Uh, patrons, we love you so much but uh, because that last episode you may recognize went like, I don't know, an hour and a half or something, we ran out of recording time, so we Tom has a hard out, we have to go, uh, sorry about that. So no story for this week, but uh, hope you enjoyed that kind of long episode, the previous one, uh, that's, that's how it goes around here. We have to get it all recorded when we can because the three of us have impossible schedules and there's like a one minute time when when we all have the same amount of time, I

0:47:38 Tom: Yeah,

0:48:06 Eli: Sorry, Thomas, I can't let you lie for me, I actually did 16 minutes on analingus, and then at the end, and Tom and Thomas were like, "Hey, no, that's not a pro." Yeah, I mean,

0:48:09 Tom: Was

0:48:18 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

0:48:57 Eli: Much of that monologue that I just did that I thought was met with stony and absolute silence did you guys hear?