DOD36: What is Genuine Friendship?

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:28 Tom: To Dear Old Dads, the podcast that is absolutely propping its eyelids open with toothpicks and declaring everything is just fine. I'm Tom Curry. I'm joined as always by Thomas Smith and Eli Bosnick. Hello, gentlemen.

0:00:41 Thomas: Everyone, shut up. I've had a terrible week. I get up this morning and the coffee is not ready on time. I mean, I don't even know. Just.

0:00:44 Tom: Ha ha ha ha.

0:00:51 Eli: I may have teased This is the problem with our show having a delay, not that I expect any empathy from our audience, because when they tore my ball sack open, our audience was like, "Well, that's on you, man. You're the one with the balls in the first place." But I'm just saying, it's my time to vent. And I'm going to call this vent, I title this vent, if you will, "Well, single parents definitely don't exist." Because

0:01:04 Tom: Ha ha ho ho ho. Ooh. Ha Ha

0:01:15 Thomas: Yeah, that's been my bit from fucking day one of parenting. It's impossible. There's no way.

0:01:16 Tom: Ha he he he.

0:01:20 Eli: I, I, you, we shouldn't like talk about listener feedback because then it becomes a cycle of like, "Oh, I'll get on the show if I say something dumb." But one of the dumbest pieces of feedback that we have gotten for this show was someone who wrote us an email being like, "Single parents do exist." And I was like, "I know, that's the joke." And they were like, "It makes it seem like you don't the End.

0:01:20 Tom: Ha. And also exists." It's a, oh my god

0:01:43 Eli: Of that conversation was like, "I don't think you should listen to any podcast. I think you should break your iPhone in half and just walk into a deep body of water." I don't know what to tell you, man, this piece of feedback is not doing it for either of us. No, I want to talk about my week, because, as some people will know, again, I know we're on a delay, this is two weeks ago when you're hearing it, whatever, and I got surgery this week. She got a breast reduction, uh, and she asked me not to say it on the podcast, but I'm doing it anyways. Um, I just, I'm just kidding, imagine, imagine if I was just giving her surgical history away explicitly against her wishes. No, she's fine with me telling people. Um, it means that she cannot lift anything or move or stretch her arms at all for at least two weeks.

0:02:09 Tom: Shit Yeah.

0:02:25 Thomas: I just want this story to be you finding out that she actually lifts stuff for you 300 times a day. Like you just constantly you're like, shit, I'm stuck, hon. I'm I'm stuck in the room. I can't even get out. I'm stung in here. I just opened the door. That's too heavy.

0:02:32 Eli: So wish you got two left

0:02:31 Tom: Wait, a minute, wait a minute, a a, like who's gonna open the biscuit cans without you getting afraid braid.

0:02:42 Eli: Exactly, there's no biscuit cans There's no, and my wife has been medically, I realized this week, my wife was medically sentenced to being a shitty guy, and it's just for a couple of weeks, and she really hates that, she wants to help out, but my wife is medically unable to be anything other than most men this week's now.

0:03:03 Thomas: Jeez, I'm sorry.

0:03:03 Tom: Jesus.

0:03:04 Eli: I know what you're thinking, "Oh, Eli, smallest violin." I had to do a little lecture, no, no, no, because this also happens to be the busiest recording week of the year, because we decided to do a live show, which we need to get ahead for, right before Christmas, which we needed to get it ahead for, which means here in podcast land, I am doing seven records in the last four days. So I, I am a blur, I've just said mean things and roasts, and I, I don't know the difference between reality.

I know what you think, "Oh, Eli, I'm sorry, did you have to do your podcasting job and a little extra parenting? You got a babysitter, don't you?" No, I don't have a babysitter, because on November 28th our babysitter got COVID, and she has had COVID this entire time, there has been, yeah, no nanny, no babysitter, I don't know what you're thinking, "Eli, doesn't your mom live close by? Wouldn't she come and help you?" Yes, she did, because she's a saint, she's such a wonderful, amazing mother, she offered to come and help out, except she also has surgery, literally today, Monday,

0:03:26 Thomas: Oh, wow. Yeah.

0:03:47 Tom: Oh, no. Oh no.

0:04:04 Eli: While we're recording this, and there was a snowstorm, so she had to leave a day early, so we got one day of mom help, and I, I don't, again, single parents don't exist, or if they are, they would just be, they'd be like in a a jester's costume, constantly screaming, like a fucking Bioshock, that's what it is, every villain in Bioshok, every monster you fight is just a single parent who also, who has a job

0:04:29 Thomas: For like three days, by the way, they just, just became a single parent. And they're like, nevermind. I'm already in a clown suit. There's no way I.

0:04:31 Tom: I don't

0:04:30 Eli: Yeah exactly yeah yep I'm in a giant scuba suit, and I want to drill through this little girl's head. I get it, you did a long weekend of single parenting, so, yeah, if you hear me start to doze off during the course of this week's podcast, that's why

0:04:38 Tom: Want to do it.

0:04:49 Thomas: Well, that's the thing.

0:04:50 Eli: Nope.

0:04:50 Thomas: Think so. Oh man. I have these same guilty feelings where I'm like, oh, I don't do anything. I'm just guy who sits on a computer. I could do whatever. But then like, way of putting it is your job cannot be done with a child anywhere near you. It just can't like, you can't have, and like, yes, it's a, you know, we have a cush job. Like it's not, we're not fucking in the mines or whatever, but like, it also can't be done without a guy. I just can't. I don't know. I go through the same thought cycle where I'm like, what a piece of shit I am where I can't, I'm just sitting here.

0:05:04 Tom: No, right.

0:05:18 Eli: And then, and let me throw this out there, right? A miner's never sitting in his wooden shack and like a piece of the coal comes up to him and tugs on his pant leg, right? He's got to be in the mine, right. I'm not saying we have it harder than miners. I'm saying that when the miners leave the mine, the mining stops. I am always in some way, shape, or form mining.

0:05:39 Thomas: Oh yeah. No, that's real. I actually think the minors had it easier. I'm telling you. Back in the day when men were not required to do a single ounce of emotional labor. You could just be like, sorry, I mean, the mind's like, yeah, okay. Physically you're dying. I get it. Yeah. That's kind of hard.

0:05:56 Eli: Thinking about how much I would prefer to hit rocks with a stick eight hours a day.

0:06:01 Thomas: Yes. Because then you're done. You clock out of that mine, like you say, and the mine isn't waking you up in the middle of the night being like, Hey, um, can you think about the rocks that you were hitting? I don't know. And maybe, and,

0:06:09 Eli: Nope. Nope. We need more coal, more coal. No, no, you, you've been mining, darling. I'm going to mine this mine. I'll just get up and I'll mine the mine and then I'll wake up in the morning and I'll mind the mind some more.

0:06:26 Thomas: And you had, and he trumped everything like back in the day when men, the expectations in terms of family stuff with men were so low, let alone when you show up, when you used to get home from work and you were covered in coal, are you really, you know, your, your Your partner had no recourse. You couldn't be like, oh, hon, did you get the groceries? Look at me. My face is blind. Are you kidding me?

0:06:38 Eli: Yeah. Nothing. No. I can't.

0:06:48 Thomas: No, I'm.

0:06:48 Eli: Those Are we're at a company, store credits? Also, oh, now I'm thinking about you'd get trapped down there sometimes. How awesome that Oh, just, just trapped with your buddies, uh, a little thirsty sure, but maybe one of them goes crazy, you can drink his blood, right? What I'm saying is, yes

0:06:55 Thomas: Oh, that'd be great. Oh, that'd be fantastic. That's the tragedy of when those soccer players got stuck in that cave. They were too young to appreciate it. The Remember that story? I saw somebody.

0:07:07 Tom: They did Yeah.

0:07:13 Thomas: What's his name? Made a movie of it, and I was like, oh, this is weird, I watched it, I was like, oh, that was fucking the one where Elon called the guy a pedo, remember that, that story just kind of came and went, but that thing was nuts, that

0:07:11 Eli: That's that's what I, yeah yeah Of Of course. Yeah.

0:07:21 Tom: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a party, that's like trapped in a cave, sounds kind of nice, like you're just like, really trapped, like somebody's gonna, like, you're gonna bring food to the cave, you're gonna, like, some, some nice rescuers gonna be like, hey, we can't get you up, but, uh, we'll, we'll bring in some food and water, you're like, so it's dark and I've got food and water and nobody expects me to do much, right?

0:07:25 Eli: Oh, yeah.

0:07:43 Thomas: Just imagining the scenario where there's the cave and it's a group of people and they're like, all right, we can't take everyone right now, someone's got on me, I'll stay, I'll say, I mean, uh, if I have to.

0:07:52 Tom: It's All the single parents like raising their hand, they're like, we're good. Yeah. We're just we're living our best life.

0:07:57 Thomas: No, I was picturing just Tom, actually. Like, literally just Tom.

0:08:00 Thomas: Like, everyone else is like, please, please take me. I can't take it anymore. Tom's, like, lounging around, like at the.

0:08:07 Eli: Did you carve a hammock? It's awesome. This is my rock hammock.

0:08:07 Tom: This is All right, guys. You know, there's some big rocks over here, we could lift and work out.

0:08:15 Thomas: He's Yeah, if I sit on the rock, I can put my feet up on this other one. Yeah, they're bloody jagged messes, but, you know, like my feet are up.

0:08:21 Eli: Guys, I found this rock. I can stare at it. It's the same as TikTok. It is.

0:08:21 Tom: What are you not pulling a lot of, a lot of hours of sleep at the moment? Is that, that's, that's hurts your sleep is good.

0:08:35 Eli: It is good. Max sleeps

0:08:36 Tom: Okay, that's good.

0:08:37 Eli: Through the night. So I, I am getting the sleep.

0:08:37 Thomas: Yeah, that's cool.

0:08:39 Tom: That's Huge. That's huge, yeah.

0:08:40 Eli: Yeah.

0:08:39 Thomas: Look, if you think single parents don't exist and they don't, when you have a kid that sleeps, imagine if you had a kid that didn't sleep. That is not possible. I can't, I can'T, oh, mm

0:08:46 Eli: Oh yeah. It's not sometimes Thomas will like casually mention it. And it's like him saying like, and you know, my arm popped off again. Like, I don't even know. Just reaffixed it.

0:08:57 Tom: Well Yeah, Aisling I mean before Haley and I, I got together, but Aisling didn't sleep through. I mean, she, she just doesn't sleep. She just doesn't asleep. So when, when Haley and I were dating, when she was in New York, we're on the phone, it's three, four o'clock in the morning. You know, Haley, and I are still talking. We're in that like real excited, you know, getting to know you just stay it up all night talking thing, you And like, there's Aisling six years old, just awake, just absolutely like bright bright eyed and bushy tailed and just awake for like the first six years of her life.

She just was like, no, I'll sleep when I'm a teenager. Like I'll get around to it. Just not going to do it. Like that phase was not a phase for Haley at all. Like and Haley went to school full time. She finished her her double major, raising two kids. And like one of them just didn't sleep. So Haley just like didn't asleep when we were when we were dating and she would fly into Chicago. Chicago, sometimes she'd be like, yeah, I'm just not going to sleep tonight. There's just no time. You know, I'll just not sleep. And I'm like, Yeah, I would like we kind of bonded over like, yeah, just we just won't. We just want

0:09:17 Thomas: -hmm. Oh, man, that was the best.

0:09:36 Eli: Oh,

0:10:05 Thomas: Yeah,

0:10:05 Tom: Sleep. I

0:10:06 Thomas: But, okay, I think there are people who genetically somehow can do that, and then there's me. Is it, Eli, are you like this?

0:10:10 Tom: Yeah. Well, you just need some hours.

0:10:12 Thomas: I wonder if it's, like, related to mental health stuff in general, because I can' t, that's the other thing that makes me feel like shit as a parent because I, I, I've said my depression's better and all that lately. And then wouldn't, you know, and I'm starting to right when I said that on this show, I'm sorry to feel shitty again, but I think it's seasonal.

0:10:28 Eli: I shouldn't have sent you all those clips from various Disney movies to try and figure out which Which one made you sad, man? That's on me. I put that playlist on that billboard outside of your house, but I was just really curious.

0:10:33 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. No, that is, that isn't you. Prank war. Yeah, so, but one thing that for sure, I think It might be seasonal stuff.

0:10:42 Eli: Yeah. It's Hi -Ho from Snow White, in case people are wondering.

0:10:48 Tom: Oh, yeah.

0:10:49 Thomas: One thing that, for sure like will ruin my mental health. Like I will, I, it's sort of how Eli was saying the other episode that you have those depression thoughts and you don't know their depression thoughts. Eliana points out my, I have that too. My version of that is when I haven't been sleeping like, and, and for me it would be, Oh yeah. It would be embarrassing though. If I told Tom how little miss sleep that takes for me, it was like, it wasn't like, it's like 15 minutes. Like it's nothing.

0:11:04 Tom: Ruins your ruins your emotional health.

0:11:15 Eli: 10 .45 instead of 11. He just wakes up sobbing and shaking.

0:11:17 Tom: Oh. Well. Well I'll I'll I'll, I'll tell you something.

0:11:16 Thomas: Yeah. It's absolutely nothing. And they

0:11:21 Tom: I, but like, how do I, I am, I'm curious because I just did a sleep study a few weeks ago for, for an issue that I was having. And I did this sleep study and I was texting with Haley. So I like you go in, if you've ever done one of these things, if listeners have ever done with these things it's a truly bizarre experience because you go In and they hook you up to, and I'm not exaggerating. There's like at least 10 or 12 leads on your head. And then there's leads on, on your arms. There leads on on your legs. There is leads by your eyes to measure eye eye movement. There's leads by your mouth.

0:11:48 Thomas: Tell you, go to sleep in

0:11:51 Eli: Yep.

0:11:51 Tom: Yeah, no, then there's leads by your month. Then there's a tube in your nose or right under your nose to measure. Yeah. Right. Yeah there's an anal probe that when you pay extra for, but it's, you know, it's I'm worth it. And so you, you, you are hooked up.

0:11:55 Thomas: Your asshole. Yeah.

0:12:03 Eli: He had that one when he came in.

0:12:04 Tom: You've got a chest strap monitor.

0:12:07 Thomas: There's already a tube in his ass. No, that's part of it. You guys did that, didn't you? Shut up. You did that.

0:12:10 Tom: Yeah. That's, that's normal. What like, is this not a bring your own? I thought this was a BYO T experience, but so they hook you up to all this this crazy shit. And you're in a, you're in a strange location, you know, it's a, so it's like, oh man. And so I'm, I'm texting with Haley and I send her pictures. Cause I look just insane. And she's like why she's Like, there's no way I would ever fall asleep. And I was like, yeah, it might be kind of, kind of tough to fall asleep like this.

0:12:34 Thomas: The sleep study would be, wow, it appears Thomas doesn't sleep. Because I would never.

0:12:38 Tom: So I fell asleep. I, I got my results. I fell asleep in six minutes and

0:12:45 Thomas: It's the mine. It's mine all over again.

0:12:47 Tom: I thought it was terrible. I was like, I could not fall asleep, I was, Like, tossing and turning. And it was six minutes. That is because I'm at this point, I have, I have, I have just trained myself that it's like, it's the body is like, hey, he's going to slow down. The minute he slows down, we turn off, we just turn off all the switches at the same time.

0:12:51 Eli: Oh. It's the word He's Horizontal. Yeah.

0:13:08 Thomas: That's Lydia.

0:13:08 Tom: So I just immediately asleep, immediately asleep, sleep

0:13:09 Thomas: It's the, it's the best.

0:13:10 Eli: Yeah. It's It's me too. You

0:13:13 Thomas: Can I think Phoebe might be like this too. Well, so I've had some funny, uh, falling asleep moments. Now we have the like, you know, kid falls asleep in the car. Now we haven't really talked much about that. That's a whole, do you guys have that? So the kids will both fall asleep inthe car constantly. And we're at this awkward time where Arlo needs to nap.

Still Phoebe's old enough where it's like, all right, she's not technically like required to nap, I think, and so we don't, we've kind of stopped doing nap time because during the weekend Arlo just hates it and he's mad at us and he wants to play and Phoebe doesn't need to so we're like, all right, I guess no nap time. But if we ever go out, they'll pass out in the car, like if it's around nap time, they'll totally pass out.

And then we're like, okay, if we can get these freaking kids to stay asleep, then we can have some, you know, peace for a few hours. And so it's a, it's a fucking, talk about the cave rescue mission, it's Mission Impossible, is there a better to reference nowadays that feels kind of dated. Well, I guess there's like seven of those, so it's a Mission Impossible seven.

0:14:07 Thomas: Oh.

0:14:06 Tom: Oh,

0:14:07 Eli: Mean, a quiet place, it's literally a quiet place

0:14:09 Thomas: I haven't seen that, okay, yeah, is it that yeah

0:14:10 Eli: Yeah. I am. I guarantee you, A Quiet Space was based on parents sitting in a car with a baby in the back seat and someone reaching for a handle and the other person going, oh, you

0:14:21 Tom: Yeah.

0:14:22 Thomas: You have to, but the problem is they're strapped into a fucking, you know, parachute or whatever, in the in the car seat, so like, you can't just lift them out, you've got to undo seven layers of straps. Well

0:14:35 Tom: Yeah

0:14:34 Eli: Just stay, you just stay, you fool, you just stay, you live in the car now. That's where you are. Yep.

0:14:37 Thomas: No that's

0:14:39 Tom: No I forwarded my mail to the car for the first several years that I was with kids, I was just like, no, this is, this is it now, that's it, you're it's like if a cat falls asleep on your lap, you just can't move, that's that's

0:14:42 Eli: Mm -hmm. Right.

0:14:44 Thomas: Yeah oh that doesn't do anything for me, see, here's because here's what I need to do I need to like get editing done and or have a little time to like do something that I want to do, like, you know, play, play a game or something. If I'm just sitting in the car, that's not doing anything for me, I'm can't sleep in a car, I can't sleep anywhere, it's impossible, I'm not Tom, so for me, that, that's not really, that wouldn't do anything. So I try to do the lift them out perfectly, specifically the Indiana Jones, you know, I have a bag that's roughly the weight of my kid that I put in after for some reason. And, always get like almost there. And the other thing they'll do that's really funny is I'll think I've pulled it off, and then I'll go to put one of them in bed and they're, they've been awake, they're just, they're just enjoying

0:14:51 Tom: Yeah by law you're not allowed to move right

0:15:18 Eli: Yeah. Impossible Yeah, yep.

0:15:19 Tom: Oh

0:15:33 Eli: Mm.

0:15:33 Thomas: The ride. They'll like, all right, well, I want to go downstairs now. Like right when I put them in the bed, I'm like, like, fuck, I thought you tricked me, I had you, I did it all so carefully, it was, but

0:15:33 Tom: Oh,

0:15:35 Eli: Yep mm I did a slow -motion cartwheel with you in my arms. Why would you think, God damn it, oh.

0:15:44 Tom: On,

0:15:47 Thomas: There's a funny thing that's happened with Phoebe the last, like, has been falling asleep, on um, the couch at night, early, like it's, again, I think it's because my kid's schedules are so weird, I think Arlo's waking her up way early in the morning, so she's kind of tired at night, but anyway, there have been a couple times where I've picked her up, I've, I, one time, okay, the first time this happened, she fell asleep downstairs and I was like, I don't know what to, I guess I'll, do we not brush teeth, by the way, what is your protocol on that, other parents, because

0:16:12 Eli: I don't I there

0:16:12 Tom: Wait on what? Brushing teeth.

0:16:14 Thomas: When she falls asleep on the couch, we're like, I guess he doesn't need to brush her teeth tonight, and, and that's like, we never do that, they have to brush every night, but like if they're already asleep, I'm not gonna wake her up to brush your teeth

0:16:21 Tom: Oh yeah.

0:16:24 Eli: Are you wake your child up to brush their teeth, these are practice teeth they're not even their real fucking teeth that's

0:16:25 Tom: No, no, I'm not doing that. Yeah. Yes.

0:16:28 Thomas: Yeah that's true they don't even count they're not their real dad, they're real dude, so okay, so I'm glad I don't have to be guilted about that, we'll just be like, like, yeah, I guess she doesn't want to drink it tonight.

0:16:31 Tom: Yes. No, if, if the kid falls asleep on the couch, I go upstairs and bring their dresser down to the living room and that's their new bedroom. That's it. That's you live here.

0:16:43 Eli: Their house, yep. That's their bedroom yeah

0:16:45 Tom: Now you live wherever you slept.

0:16:47 Thomas: Tom's house is like the end of the labyrinth where all the fucking stairs are bad. He's just, the car is his bedroom. The living room. It's Escher painting.

0:16:55 Eli: Right

0:16:54 Tom: That's it whatever you're asleep like I'm like fuck it me too buddy we're both asleep

0:16:58 Thomas: You have to tell your kids, these stairs go sideways. Now, actually, you can't use them up and down, which is it's fucking weird. So I picked her the first time this happened. I was like, all right, I'm going to do my dad thing of picking her up silently, like a ninja doing everything. And I get halfway up the stairs and she goes, dad, dada, hold on, wait. Like she just jumps up in my own data. Wait. I was like, Oh, okay. So I put her down and I was just like waiting there.

I just thought, Oh she must be awake. And she wants, you know, they always have, they're like, oh, I got to get my stuffy or I, you know they always Have some fucking bullshit. So it's like, okay, so I stay on the stairs and maybe she's a getting a bite of dinner that they didn't finish. Cause they never finished their fucking day or something, you Know? And so I'm waiting, I'm and I'm like, what the fuck is that? A Phoebe? And I don't hear anything. I go, know, I walked back downstairs and she's passed out on the couch again.

0:17:04 Tom: Yeah

0:17:25 Eli: Yeah.

0:17:42 Eli: Fell

0:17:43 Thomas: And she's, she literally just said, dad, I'll wait. And then just went to the couch and passed out. She like, wasn't really awake. She just had like, you know, when you're kind of not sleepwalking, but when you have that, like little bit of like, Oh no, I'm awake. And Then you just weren't at all. God, it was so funny. Cause she just went back down, passed out On the couch. I was like, no, what? And so I picked picked her up, took her back up. She'd wait. And I was like, no, I'm just putting you in bed. And then she fell asleep in bed, but it's so cute though. The kids' sleeping stories are my favorite.

0:17:48 Eli: Back Asleep Yep The first road trips we ever took with Max, um, know I was very nervous because he has this very, very strict sleep schedule, always had since he was a really, really little kid. Um, so this was the first time we were fucking it up. And so we drive, him like, "Look, we're gonna start driving," gives him about a half an hour, hour to get settled into the car. And then he's gonna fall asleep. Sure enough, that's what happens.

He falls asleep at his nap time while we're driving. And I'm like, yes. And so Anna and I do a little bit of finger spelling right when we need to be silent. So I think your brother, like, "Hey, he's asleep." She's like, "Awesome." Right? And then we, we drive for like 45 minutes, an hour or something. And I'm like, hey, I got to pee, let's pull over. And she just finger spells back to me, no. And I was like, I was like, yeah, no, that's cool, I get it. And so there was just an additional hour or so where I was just like, I remember he woke up. He was like, you know, he like made some noise. He's like, whatever it is that he said. And I was like, we have to pull over so I can urine. I would be, have you ever had to pee so bad that you get to the

0:19:17 Eli: Toilet And your body's like, no, we forgot, now we've Forgotten Now, yeah.

0:19:17 Thomas: Oh God. Yeah. It's, it goes into like, no, it's a plugged, like it'S like the fucking, Chernobyl that they just poured concrete in there. They're like, nah, this is a disaster.

0:19:27 Eli: Yeah. It's The elephant's foot of your urethra, yeah. You You Just have to lie horizontally across the toilet, just wait until you slowly deflate

0:19:31 Thomas: Your Bladder is solid now Oh

0:19:40 Tom: Had this crazy job, uh, left it almost 10 years ago. I had his crazy job that like I had, I literally had two phones on my desk because a lot of times one would be ringing and I needed to still have an open line. It was just fine. It was like boiler room. Like the fucking job was like fucking boiler room. And so I had this crazy job, and so I realized that there wasn't going to be time, just you realize it over the course of working, you're like, there was not going to be time to pee. So you just live, I don't know if you guys have ever had to do this. You just live in this state of constant dehydration to avoid having to go. So you're just like, yeah, I just, if I don't drink anything, I won't have to go pee. So then I would come home and right.

0:20:08 Thomas: God. That's Horrible. Capitalism Is Great. It's the best system.

0:20:16 Eli: It's Really Good.

0:20:17 Tom: I would be like, I would Come Home and be like I don't think I peed today.

0:20:17 Eli: Yeah. Yeah.

0:20:20 Thomas: Efficient. Marketplace, it Allows Tom To completely compromise his health in order to answer a meaningless fucking boiler room phone Call. That probably was Nothing

0:20:22 Tom: Right? Yeah, right. Oh God, I

0:20:23 Eli: Yeah. Tom Was the first Amazon warehouse worker when it was just books. They were like, "Hey, man, you can take bathroom breaks." He was like, "No, I see the future of this company."

0:20:36 Thomas: No.

0:20:36 Eli: Trust me.

0:20:37 Thomas: It was like Bezos walked by and saw Tom and was like, "Hmm, wait a minute." It

0:20:41 Eli: Excellent.

0:20:41 Tom: That's the way to do it at that same job. I had gotten a cough and I had that cough variant asthma and then I ended up getting walking pneumonia, but I couldn't afford to take the time off of work. And so I'm at work and one of the attorneys that I worked with that I was friendly with, her husband was a doctor and she's like, you shouldn't be here. And I'm like, I have to be here and so she's He's like, oh, OK, well, let me get my husband who's to come in on his day off and like examine you. So like I actually had the only the first and only house call from a doctor I ever had was my attorney friend's husband, who's also named Tom, came in and he shut the door to my office and he did a whole exam and wrote me prescriptions. And he's like to you, you got pneumonia. He's Like, you kind of need to go home. And I was like, I just I just

0:20:41 Thomas: Oh God.

0:20:43 Eli: You Said

0:21:28 Tom: Need the prescription is what I actually need.

0:21:28 Eli: Walking Pneumonia. Come on.

0:21:30 Tom: Yep. Yep, so

0:21:30 Eli: If It's Not Walking. No, I did the exact, I was, um, because we, we both have the cough asthma, uh, and the Cough plasma turns to bronchitis, which turns pneumonia if You don't get it treated. If you don't have an inhaler. And so the first time this happened for me really badly, I was in college and I was working as a barista at this, uh, chocolate Bar called Max Brenner's in New York. And so what I realized is, um, the cough suppressant powers of Nyquil, um, alcohol and Nyqual were stronger, but it made me sleepy, but not if I mixed half a dose of Nyquil, half a dose of Dayquil, and Diet Coke together And did It as a

0:21:32 Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Oh. God. Oh. God. The

0:22:09 Eli: Shooter and I remember

0:22:10 Tom: Flavor Of that my

0:22:11 Eli: Yeah. No, The flavor

0:22:12 Tom: God. Right.

0:22:12 Thomas: You Don't Do You still have a stomach lining or is that all Gone?

0:22:15 Eli: No, It's, it, food just directly, to redistribute throughout my body like a silt table at this point. But I remember I was doing that, and I was, I was still coughing so terribly while preparing people's food. Now, keep in mind, this was pre-COVID. But It was still

0:22:30 Thomas: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. That was just fine back then, it was just like

0:22:31 Eli: Right. It Was Still so gross. It was so gross that in the pre-COVID times people were like, "Hey, man, are you okay?" And I'd be like, "Yeah, I just..." I constantly said to people, "I watered down the wrong tube," because I didn't Yeah.

0:22:44 Tom: I Actually

0:22:33 Thomas: Ah, Yeah. Yeah, just Constantly drinking water down the wrong pipe. You

0:22:47 Eli: Yeah.

0:22:47 Tom: Poured a gallon of water into my lungs this morning, and it's just, it's gonna take the whole day, it's gonna take the whole day

0:22:48 Eli: Water Doesn't Go down the right tube multiple

0:22:51 Thomas: Have One of Those Yeah, I only have the one wrong tube.

0:22:56 Eli: Again, this wasn't right, but like, I remember multiple customers would take their drink or their food for me and just throw it right in the garbage. They'd just be like, "Oh, yeah, thanks, man, this is great. No, I'm definitely gonna consume this thing that I saw you fucking put a straw from your nose directly into it." And just Expect And

0:23:02 Tom: Yeah.

0:23:11 Thomas: How

0:23:11 Tom: I'll have a coffee and a cheese danish and some Flemin viruses if I can have the Flemin viruses.

0:23:15 Eli: Whatever he Has Yeah. And whatever

0:23:17 Tom: Yeah. Fucking

0:23:17 Eli: Illness he has. Yep. Oh.

0:23:19 Thomas: Are we recording right now? Where is your, where's your son? How is this even happening? I don't understand. Okay.

0:23:24 Eli: Asleep. So in case anyone's wondering what's happening right now is he's asleep. I put him down for his nap 24 seconds before I came down here, and then when he's done napping and is going to call me, and you're not going to hear this, podcast listener, but Tom will be in the middle of the story about how his mom hit him with a train, or Thomas will be like, "I remember one time my dad sold us all for some Big Mags and I'm just going to be like, "Sorry, guys, one second, I'm going to lift my son out of the crib, change his diaper, put his feet on the floor," at which point his mother is able to take over his care, holding

0:23:45 Thomas: Yikes.

0:23:56 Thomas: Well, That reminds me of the topic that, oh,

0:23:56 Tom: That's brutal. It's brutal, buddy. Yep.

0:24:01 Eli: Well, no, I actually think this is actually a pretty good intro to our topic, which is about holding other men accountable, because it's yet another reminder about how shitty and terrible it is for most women. Right? Like for most woman throughout most of history, they just lived this week that I'm bitching about, like, "I'm at the bottom of a well." Right? Like, I am the star of Lewis Sacker's Holes. Right? So, uh, you wanted to talk about, like, holding other men accountable. Yeah.

0:24:29 Tom: Yeah, remember where this idea originated to have this for a topic, but it's something that I think about all the time. I've been thinking about this for many, many years.

And one thing that I think we're not always quick to do, and we don't necessarily do a real good job of unless we do it real intentionally, is looking at our friendships and looking at the people in our life and thinking about how we need to hold those people accountable and in turn, how we want to be held accountable to our friends. And so I have two questions that have always guided me, and I'm curious what you guys think of this.

So I have two questions that have always guided me for 15 plus years. And I think about my friends very specifically with these questions at least once a year. I always think to myself, is my life better because this person is in my life? And then I also think, is their life better because I'm in their life?

If I can't answer yes to both of those questions, that's a relationship that I need to reconsider the value of, or reconsider how I respond to that relationship, or whether I want to continue that relationship, or whether I'm failing in that relationship. We don't do a great job, I think, of looking at the people in our lives and saying, that person is good for me, or am I good for this person?

And building our friendships around that as the sort of driving ideal for like what makes a real friendship. And I think if we do more of that, we get to hold ourselves to a higher standard. We're elevated as a result. And then, you know, we can elevate those around us in turn. I think when we fail to do that, we end up sort of collecting trolls and collecting these fucking energy vampires. And none of that has any real value.

And I think all of that shit is problematic. And the men, because we tend to have less relationships and because we have tend to have less close relationships, I think we are much more reluctant to do what I think of there is really essential work.

0:26:30 Eli: And of also speaks to the trope too of, like, male frame, female friendships, they're like, "Oh my gosh, how are you feeling?" And male friendships, it's like the sports, the sports. And I think that's a part of it too, is like so many men don't trust themselves to have real friendship, don't want to have real relationship, and are afraid of like what comes with that, like they just, they just think it's not for them, they just want to tap out of it, as though it's not an important social experience. I mean, I don't know about you guys, Thomas, I, I am taking a guess, but I'm guessing your dad didn't have a lot of, if any, friends.

0:26:40 Tom: Yeah.

0:27:07 Thomas: Boy.

0:27:07 Tom: Well, at his funeral, I mean, was it hard to count them all? Was there a ticket system or, I don't know, they put a turnstile in?

0:27:08 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. The invisible man I guess maybe that's the only one I can think of. Yeah, no, I that had very few friends. Here's into this, I think I had a different maybe idea of what you meant. Um, I thought we were talking about like holding men accountable for being shitty men, but this sounds more like a general, you being a good, being a, and I, I think that

0:27:31 Tom: I was thinking about specifically our friends, like holding our friends accountable to a standard.

0:27:31 Thomas: Yeah. No. I mean, but in what way

0:27:33 Eli: Yeah.

0:27:35 Tom: Yeah, I

0:27:35 Thomas: I guess Like, in what way are we holding them accountable and for what?

0:27:39 Eli: Like, it, because it's about holding our friends accountable to the friendship, right? It's like, "Hey, like is this friendship actually working for me?" And it's interesting, I also didn't know that angle, but it's also something I've really struggled with because I've been a mentor for so long and now my mentees are grown up and doing fine, and that's not the relationship anymore, and I've had to learn to let that transform. Like the joke I was going to make when you said like "is a person's life better because of me and is my life better, better because that person," I was like, okay, what, what if one of those answers is definitely true and you're not so sure about the other answer?

0:28:12 Thomas: Well, don't, I was going to say, I don't think we can possibly be sure of the other. We cannot answer if someone else's life is better because of us. That's impossible. I think you can ask somebody, but that's a hard thing even for them to answer. I just don't think that's how people work. I

0:28:25 Eli: Going to say the exact opposite, because I know there are friends in my life whose lives lives are measurably better because of me. I find it tricky for some of them to know if my life is better because of them.

0:28:38 Tom: I think maybe knowing it is not like in this sort of like really hard and fast scientifically objective way, but I think we can have a pretty strong inclination that yeah, my, like I think about the people in my life and I think that, you know, most of the people that I've been close with have been pretty open and demonstrative that, you know, that they're, they're very grateful for having me in their life and really specific moments in their lives where you've shown up for them.

You've been there for them, you know, they feel like really gratified by the friendship and the give and take back and forth. So I think you can know that. I think it requires you to have a real openness with the people in your life. I think about, you know, I'll, I'm out there. Like I think about Cecil, like, like a lot of listeners to this, the show will know of Cecil.

And I think I can answer pretty unequivocally that Cecil's life is better because I've been in his life. I know for certain that my life is better because he's in mine, but I am confident that he would say the same. I am just absolutely confident that he would stay the same, and I can point back to many moments throughout the course of our, our friendship where that has reciprocated and been demonstrable. And so I do think that's something you can know.

I think that one of the problems with male friendships is we tend to build our friendships based on shared activities rather than, and there's nothing necessarily wrong with this on its face, but we tend to build our friendships based on shared activities. We have people we do things with, but not necessarily in the same way that I think we don't necessarily have people we connect with on a, on a real deep level. And we really have the same kind of like longstanding trust and openness and vulnerability with.

0:30:27 Tom: And I, as a result of that, I think we have fishing buddies and drinking buddies and, you that's not in my view, that's, that'S good, but it's not enough. It's not the same. We should be driving to something more substantive, I think.

0:30:27 Eli: Yeah, absolutely.

0:30:39 Eli: Yeah. And it's not real friendship, right? It is it is a completely different relationship, right. Right. It is it is almost acquaintanceship as replacement for friendship. And, You know, part of the goals for the show, at least for me, is like to talk about men's issues in a way that's useful and non -toxic. And I think that's a huge men's issue. I thinkthat a lot of the toxic masculinity we see springs from that as well is like the fact that men don't have support networks and therefore things get out of control, be it mental health issues or their own shitty behavior or whatever it is. Like, I think, I part of that reciprocal, that nature of that friendship that you're talking about, Tom, also is like, has this person called me out when I needed calling out, has this person

0:30:49 Tom: Yes. Yeah. A

0:31:22 Eli: Helped me grow, um, uh, yeah, I mean, that's that's definitely definitely the case with the people who I think of as my best friends, right?

0:31:23 Tom: Hundred percent. 100%. Because drinking buddies won't do that. Your fishing buddy won't call you out when you're being a shithead, right? When you've got a bad idea, when you've performed some bad action or bad behavior, your drinking buddy is not going to help build and expand your moral compass. They are not going act as a good on your shoulder, for lack of a better term, Or like an expanded conscience, for lack of a better term. But real friends will do that work with you. What I see a lot in male friendships, and I lament this as I see it, is people have what they consider friends, but those friends are built around these sort of shared activities frequently work. And I'll tell you a story about my boss's boss in a minute, because I think it's apropos and hopefully he never listens to any of my shows. But, you those events.

0:31:33 Eli: Yeah.

0:31:58 Eli: Turns out He's our number one patron, single tear runs down his cheek.

0:32:23 Thomas: He

0:32:22 Tom: Right. Well, I don't think so. When Those events in their lives change, they lose their friends. Friends, so they have friends at work, and then they change their job, and then they don't have those friends anymore. And I would say those weren't friends, those were acquaintances. You guys got along because you were in the same cage. You were rats in a cage. You were all eating from the same trough, you were all drinking from the some, you know, water dish, but were you really friends? I would say no. Like, if it doesn't survive a change of venue, you probably didn't have a friend, you had an acquaintance. And I don't know that people necessarily, necessarily introspect enough on the depth and meaning and quality of those relationships to build them.

And if you don't introspect, you can't evaluate and validate that. That, work my several years, as maybe six, seven years ago, I went to an event hosted by my boss's boss, and it was for this like senior management thing, and so there was maybe like 10 or 12 of us, and we got together down in Jacksonville, Florida, of all places. And we went to my boss, boss's new condo, because he, he had just relocated to Jacksonville, where our headquarters was.

And he had this big, beautiful condo overlooking the St. John River. And I mean, it was spacious, and they had, you know, waiters and black tie and all that stuff, you know, walking around. And I thought, well, this is all very nice. It's a nice gesture of him to do. But one of the things he said stood out for me and will never leave me is he said, you know, you guys are the first friends that I've had. I've been here for six months, and you're my first friends that have come to visit me. And

0:32:36 Eli: Yikes. Yeah.

0:33:55 Tom: I thought, but I'm not your friend, man. I'm like two levels under you in a corporate structure. I care about you because I care about people, but like, I don't know your wife's name. You don't know my children's names. We aren't friends. I don't know your fucking birthday, man. But this is a guy whose entire life had been subsumed by his work to the point where his ability to differentiate between friendship and other people engaged in the same day-to-day activity as him, that, that was all blended together, it's all the same thing. And that moment struck me as so deeply lonely and so deeply unselfaware. And if he fucking hears this, I'm fired. But like, so deeply unself aware that it made me like real Sad, it really did. Like it Like, I put my fucking drink crankdown in that moment. Now I was like, God damn. Because when I look at the people in my life, right.

0:34:38 Eli: Yeah. Okay.

0:34:52 Thomas: Takes out his ear pods, wearing his homemade dear old dad shirt is like, but I guess we weren't very good friends. I support all your stuff

0:34:58 Eli: But the Christmas cards. That's

0:35:03 Tom: But you know what I mean? Like there's a, there is a real distinction there. There is a really, really, real distinction. There, and I think it's, I think this kind of deliberative introspection around our friendships and why we value them and what we value in a friend and how we ask them to hold us accountable and be better versions of ourselves, like that shit is fucking essential work that I don't think do enough of.

0:35:04 Eli: Cool.

0:35:28 Eli: Yeah, think I, I've told this story, maybe I haven't, have I told you, being on the opposite side of that conversation, my story with the toy company. So So I was like six years into the toy company and we were renegotiating my salary and it didn't go through and I was like, oh, it looks like I have to leave. And me and the best boss I've ever fucking had, except for the one I have now, obviously, um, was this absolute madman. And we were talking and I was like, you know, man, it's been so wonderful. And I start to get a little emotion, emotional, and he goes, Eli, Eli, Eli, you must stop, you must stop, we don't know each other, you just work here, relax, it's a salary negotiation appreciation. But I remember trying to have this moment of like, you know, you gave me a job when I most needed it.

0:35:35 Tom: Tell me.

0:36:09 Thomas: Yeah.

0:36:10 Eli: And he was like, yuck, cut it the fuck out.

0:36:15 Tom: Well and Workplaces will leverage that and I know this isn't, this is a, this is another tangent, but I will say that I have had the the direct experience, I know so many other people have had the same, workplaces we'll leverage that inability to understand and appreciate and draw that line and the difference between friendship and meaningful work acquaintances. And they will leverage that to create a sense of loyalty that only works in one direction.

0:36:15 Thomas: Oh

0:36:41 Eli: Yep.

0:36:41 Tom: And that's super fucking dangerous. It's super fuckin' dangerous. And again, it's so dangerous for men specifically because men aren't as good about building and maintaining off -site relationships. And so when you lose your job, when you retire, when you change jobs, these can be deeply unsettling events for men because all of a sudden, not only do they change and have a transition of work, but they've lost their entire social element. They've lost the entirety of their social circle and infrastructure that undergirds and supports them emotionally. And what they don't understand is that was always unsustainable. That was never really a solid foundation to build on. And I think, like I said, I think about that moment regularly in my life. And, I never want to find myself in that place. What am I doing always to maintain these friendships? What am I doing always, to add value to people's lives?

And, then I also look at the friends in my, life and I'm like, hey look, if you're just somebody I have a shared history with, but I don't think you're making me a better person. I don't think that you're helping me grow. I don't think that that's a relationship I'm going to invest a lot less of my time and energy in.

0:37:10 Eli: Right. Exactly.

0:37:55 Thomas: Is stressing me out. This feels really high stakes. Yeah.

0:37:57 Tom: Is Is it really?

0:37:58 Thomas: No, felt like I need a do what the justices don't do anymore, which is recuse myself from this conversation, because I don't really, I, I don't know, I think probably because of my dad or whatever, my like mental health, like there's several components of this where I'm like, I don't, I, I can't even, I don't have thoughts on it because it's just so different from any way that I look at the world, I guess. I don't know.

Like I, I, when it comes to like, if I make anyone else's life better, my self-esteem issues mean that I can't even think about that quite like, I, it's, I don't even think about that. Like there's no, I always assume that I just make everyone's life worse than they put up with me. And so also like I also don't have any like, or maybe because like I'm very introverted, I, I tend to have far fewer friends, so and there's not a lot, like I think of like my friends in quotes and know, like I have friends I like, but don't, there's, know if I have anybody beyond Lydia who I would consider on this like, I know, this level of friendship you're talking about, Tom, I'm, I'm really not sure. I, I, maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it

0:38:36 Tom: What?

0:38:59 Thomas: Just feels so like intense to me.

0:39:00 Tom: No.

0:38:58 Eli: No, I think, I think that's a really common problem, Thomas. And I think you're, you're not hearing it wrong, right? You're, you're talking about an experience that a lot, a lot a lot of men share, right?

0:39:09 Tom: Right.

0:39:11 Thomas: It's not. I don't think it's that. I just don't like, one, I, I've don't, never historically, besides like literally besides you guys, I don't really like men. I don't have a lot of male friends. So like I have female friends that I'm pretty close to. It's

0:39:22 Tom: That counts. Counts just fine. They don't have to be male friends.

0:39:25 Thomas: What I'm saying is I don't have the thing where I have, like, okay, here's what I do, and my hockey teams, I'm kind of like famous for this, I just can't care about those guys. Like I don't, I, you know, there's a few that I like, there's, you know, whatever, but like they'll always be like, ah, come to have the beers after the game, and I'm like, I just, anything feels more like fun to do than that. I don't know what it is, so I don't have a lot of the like, oh yeah, those are my buds, those are like, I just have no interest in that level of relationship, so I put it this, this way. Maybe I will put in the voice in case there's a lot of people like me listening, that I'm just a pretty solitary person. And I don't really, like, I don'T think I have the kinds of relationships maybe, except for a few, like a few key ones maybe, but I don't have the kind of interactions maybe that Tom's talking about. I don't know.

0:39:46 Eli: Yeah.

0:40:10 Eli: I I think that's super, I will say as a collector of people, I force people like that to be, including you, Thomas, to be my friend all the time, right? There are several people who I'm just like, you're my friend now, right?

You know, my, my buddy Matt tells the story, and this is the story he tell told, when I, uh, gave a speech at his wedding, setting is, my buddy Matt has severe social anxiety, uh, so he had just gotten into magic, and he showed up to this, uh, magic meeting that we do on a weekly basis because he had heard about it, and he sat at the end of the table and he was literally too afraid to talk to anybody the entire time, so he just sort of sat there quietly having a panic attack while everyone else was talking, doing card tricks and all this shit, right?

And I just came down to the end of the table, and I was like, hey man, how you doing, we talked a little bit, I could tell he was nervous, and I was like, so, like, do you have any friends in magic, and he was like, I don't really have any friends, period, and I said, well, you're my

0:40:59 Eli: Friend now.

0:40:59 Thomas: That's why you're doing magic. No, I'm kidding.

0:41:01 Eli: Yeah, but I said to him, I said, look, you're my friend, and literally since then he has been my friend, I just was like, you're mine, you're fine, and so I, I think a lot of the times, if that is your predisposition, you need someone who grabs you and says, no, this is, this is what we are doing now, we are friends, and I'm not gonna, I, this is not a test, right? Because I think, think a lot of men also are like, no, come get a beer, but then if you don't, they're like, that asshole, right? Because it's a weird fucking test of like, you have to do the thing I want you to do when you do it. And what's a lot harder is that vulnerability of like, hey, I'm gonna be here, man, you

0:41:09 Thomas: Yeah.

0:41:19 Tom: Yeah.

0:41:37 Thomas: It's interesting. I don't, I also, I have no social anxiety. I don't. I just don't, it's weird. Honestly, if I'm, if being honest, it comes from a pretty toxic place. I think, I think that growing up with my dad, that I'm just, I'm, I can be way too harshly judgmental. And so, and I think it's a combination of two things. It, the, it's, we talked about toxic of self-reliance, I think that revealed a lot of this stuff too, where it's like, oh, I just don't like interacting much because of, you like, know, the trauma of my dad and all that, but also because of his constant like negative just voice about everything, I very quickly just don't like people, or, or I just, you, him fine. I just don't really, I'm not interested in like a meaningful deep bond with this person.

0:42:17 Eli: You didn't ever get the experience of that being a positive thing, right, that would be like if every time someone baked cookies, you got spanked, right? You would, would not have the same reaction to, I made cookies, you'd be like, oh fuck, ah, here we go, like, I think, I think that's very similar, and I also think that we model, I mean, Tom, I'm interested in your thoughts on this, I think we model a lot of our friendships on our relationships with our dads, um, I know I do, right, like my dad was a mentor, and my dad was Roasty, and my dad sort of considered himself a leader, and so, like, I have never had another

0:42:22 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

0:42:23 Tom: Yeah.

0:42:48 Thomas: Well, Tom hasn't physically put me in a wastebasket yet, so I feel like.

0:42:50 Eli: No but

0:42:51 Tom: I'm not done reading you yet.

0:42:54 Thomas: Yeah.

0:42:55 Eli: Like, here's the thing though, here's, of all the, the people on this podcast, right, we can imagine going to visit Tom and waking up and there being a chores list for us, and us just being like, all right, we gotta fucking do these, I don't do you want to find out what happens, I'm tiling shit, I, I may be a fucking piece of shit, but I'm good, I'm on TikTok, okay, I spread the white shit on the, and then I put the, mm

0:43:04 Tom: You guys would do it Yeah.

0:43:06 Thomas: Oh, we would do it. Yeah.

0:43:18 Tom: Yeah. My, give my dad credit, I don't know that my relationships with my friends, and I, and I'm gonna, I'm absolutely acknowledge an incredible amount of privilege. And I'll sidetrack and say, I know people who have not had, the friendships that I'm talking about are not friendships that, like, if you don't have them, that's your fault. There are many people who find themselves in middle adulthood and people I'm deeply close to find out, well, my God, all this time I thought these people were my friends and these were really bad friendships.

0:43:38 Eli: -hmm,

0:43:53 Thomas: Yeah.

0:43:53 Tom: These were really one-sided. These were really problematic. I was doing all of the emotional heavy lifting. And one of the things that really catalyzes that for a lot of people is discovering one real friend, one real deep connection. It's like, you know, we've talked about this on the show before. It's like when you think you've got feelings for someone romantically. And so you have this history of, yeah, that's what, that's what this feels like. And then you actually fall in love with somebody and you're like, that was all nothing. That was all, nothing, this is What that real connection feels like. Friendship, like real friendship, can feel very much the same. But so many people, men and women, so many people will find throughout the course of their lives that maybe they're in their 30s or 40s, and then they finally find a real friendship connection with somebody, and they look back and that helps them take stock of other relationships, and it catalyzes their thoughts on other relationships, and they see the importance of it.

But if that's not something that you have, I don't want listeners to feel like I'm calling them out or calling out them for having bad friendships. I'm just sort of throwing out kind of like the platonic ideal of friendships that I happen to be deeply privileged, I think, to have had for a long time in my life. I've also, like, I prune that fucking tree.

I will tell you that I, I absolutely prune that tree and, and I will also acknowledge that unlike you, Thomas, I tend to be more extroverted in general. And so I, I would rather spend time with people than spend time without people. So there's also that element too, that I want to kind of acknowledge. Yeah,

0:44:23 Eli: Mm, sure,

0:45:28 Thomas: It changes it so much. Like it really changes how you look at things because I, you know, I'm just obviously a fucking basket case of bullshit. Shit. But like, I, you know, there's parts of me that because of, you know, my dad having zero fucking interactions and not only to mention that my mom being the fucking weirdest human being in the history of time. So I have, I have no examples of like how to be a good friend to anyone, like literally no example. I'm, I'm working off of fucking just from the eighties. Like that's up on a shelf. That's like how to have a friend. And I'm like, Oh my God, this can't be right.

0:45:29 Tom: Yeah,

0:45:30 Eli: Yeah.

0:45:46 Tom: It

0:46:00 Eli: Supposed

0:46:00 Thomas: None of of this.

0:46:00 Eli: To spatchcock my fellow hockey players? What?

0:46:04 Thomas: Yeah. And so, but like, also that's Lydia, like I'm Lydia, that guy who's like, well, Lydia is my best friend, but it's actually true because I, I don't like, I don't need many more best friends. Like I have, I have some good friends, but I also just, I think to be a particularly good friend, it takes actually a lot of effort. And I think for me my brain is just not there, like, I don't, it's not out of any ill will or like I don't like somebody, or it's just like I don't think of the things that other people, I guess, do, like they just don't occur to me where I'm like, oh, I should call this person, be like, hey, why don't I cut, I have nothing, I have none of that, like fucking faking it from just a, just a dog-eared thing, and it does actually make it hard when I'm like, oh, I really like this person, I want to be their friend, I'm like, oh, I don't know how I got out of the, do I give them a kidney or do I not even call them? I like literally

0:46:24 Tom: Does.

0:47:00 Eli: So

0:47:00 Thomas: Tell me whatever it is. I don'T fucking know. And but also again, it's, it'S a little low stakes for me. Cause I just don't feel like I need to, like, the opposite of you, Tom. I would love to just be my, myself. Like it's not all the time. Like I have to have Lydia. I have one really solid, good friendship and good relationship. But like, if weren't here, it'd be a whole different picture, but I don't need a bunch of different interaction all the time. It's weird.

0:47:23 Eli: If you're in the Twilight Zone episode, you drop Lydia and she shatters at the end and you're like, no, just when I had the time.

0:47:31 Tom: Yeah.

0:47:29 Thomas: Oh my God. Yeah. Oh yeah. Think you'd get, start getting a lot more messages from me if I, yeah,

0:47:35 Tom: You know I've I've read a lot on this topic actually, and Thomas, that is a super common, most men their most important, and mine too, their most important friendship is their romantic partner, and that I think is that I, I think is very healthy, but, but what is unhealthy, I think, you know, from a psychological, like from, from what I've read, um, most, most men, that's kind of their only touchstone. That's kindof their only emotional touch point.

0:47:36 Eli: Time can

0:48:00 Thomas: Yeah. Think it comes from an inability to have any sort of emotional vulnerability. Like you're, you're most men feel like they're not allowed to. That's not my problem. I'll, I'll talk to someone for like five minutes and I can open up a hundred percent. Cause I don't like, I actually enjoy opening up. So it's not, it's Not that for me, but I see what you mean. Like a lot of men, I think they just only feel like they're allowed to, as men, open up to specifically their wives and that's it. Yeah.

0:48:08 Tom: Yeah. Right. Right, yeah. The And, problem with that. Well, there's a lot of problems and I'll tell you, I'll tell you a story about my dad through a friend of his. So, um during COVID, my, one of my dad's longest standing friends, 25, 30 years long friendship. Lost his wife to COVID. My dad's friend lost his life to COVID someone I knew growing up, like my whole life. She was kind of like a surrogate mom, kind of an ant figure in my life.

So she was an important figure when I was growing up and unfortunately COVID got her. And so she passed and this guy and my dad, because they they have this longstanding friendship. They get together once a week and have lunch. He hasn't lost his entire social world. He lost the most important part of his social world, but he hasn't lost everything. I think it's important too, to, to remember like that we have to have other people who can process with us, who can work with us.

Like there's a lot of, and it sounds like a backup. It's not a backup. I think putting all of your eggs in the basket of one person can be a really emotionally dangerous place for everybody to be.

0:49:37 Eli: Confirm, do not put all your emotional eggs in the basket of one bird, even if they're super cool, by the way, they, uh, yeah.

0:49:45 Tom: Mean that my wife isn't absolutely by large. She is the most important emotional and otherwise connection in my life. No, no hesitation, no question. But, I would be crushed if something were to happen, but I also know I have a lot of other supports and I think men don't build lives that have those other supports. Women do. Women build lives typically, and this is just broadly demographically speaking, that have a broader base of these kinds of emotional supports. And I think that's, that's That's one of the reasons why, you weather things like divorce better than men tend to weather things like divorce.

0:50:20 Eli: I was gonna say, have you seen a widow versus a widower? Right, a widow, she starts to fuck, as she goes to this class, and then all of a sudden she's mentoring. And widowers are just like, I'm thinking of sitting in this chair until I decay, until I just physically soak into the fabric. It's my plan now that Sheila's not around, maybe.

0:50:25 Tom: Yeah, man. Wildly different.

0:50:44 Thomas: I, I, again, again, I don't think that works because, like, imagine what the, it's a give and take, imagine what the give would have to be for me to have another friend anywhere as close as Lydia. I don't have the ability to give that just to have them as a backup, you know, like, I just don't have you know

0:51:00 Tom: It's not. That's Why I was saying I don't want you shouldn't think of it as a backup. It's just, it's one of those things where I think having more than one meaningful friendship and emotionally disproportionately significant relationship in your life is just like, it makes your life necessarily richer, but only if you have the bandwidth for it. Like, I'm not trying to sell you on having bandwidth you don't have.

0:51:18 Thomas: Yeah yeah

0:51:21 Eli: You take your kids to Disney World together, just saying this is a good way to start

0:51:24 Thomas: Oh, you guys are my two best friends like I'm the, I'm Tom's boss's boss, where I'm like, wait, but, but you guys, you guys are both like, oh, no, I have a hundred meaningful relationships. And I'm like, no, this is, this is it for me. It's, it's YouTube, pretty much. It's pretty much it.

0:51:40 Eli: That's why you got to come to Disley World.

0:51:42 Thomas: I will. Let's go.

0:51:43 Tom: Do your friends hold you accountable? Like, to bring it back to the, do you have a friend who's like, I don't know, your friends, hold you. Accountable in ways that you appreciate.

0:51:51 Eli: It's it's tough it's tough, honestly. I was thinking about that as you were saying it, because all my son, all my friends' sons, all my sons, hey, there it is, all my friends are so much younger than me, they rely so much on me, that that

0:52:07 Thomas: So they're like, Eli, your TikToks are just shit. You know, we got, they hold you accountable on that.

0:52:07 Eli: Yeah yeah it's very, very rare I have to really fuck up, and they always band to get, I can always tell, because they have to do a mini intervention, because they're not brave enough to do it one on one, so they'll, they'll always gang up on me, and they'll be like, so the other day you wrote something in the chat thread, and we've all talked, and I'm like, I'm so, okay, I'm sorry, what did I do, um, but yeah, like, as far hold accountable in the way that, like, my friends, like you, Tom, hold me accountable, no, I, I would say I have two friends in the world who call me up to be like, you fucked up, and one of them is you, the other one is my super Jewish friend David Schwartz, um, and he's not always right, sometimes he just calls me to be like, stop being an atheist, I'm like, shut up, David, you know what you're talking about, you

0:52:40 Tom: Yeah yeah

0:52:58 Thomas: You give us an example? Can you give me an example, Tom? Like of what you're talking about, I guess. Like, what do you mean? Of what's a time you were held accountable for something in a way, like, this, I just don't, maybe I don't yeah

0:53:04 Tom: I people accountable, so

0:53:11 Eli: Can you can use me if you want, Tom, if you wanna use me as an example, you can be right

0:53:12 Thomas: Yeah

0:53:15 Tom: So there was, there was a time where I was concerned, like, for, like, Eli and I have a lot of points of connection, and there was a time I was concerned that some of Eli's behavior was hurting other people accidentally. I knew that from some of the people that I was connected to. And so I was very comfortable picking up the phone and saying, hey, I'm going to tell you something because I love you. And I know this isn't intentional.

And I know this is not how you mean to do this, but this is the effect that it's having. And so if you don't know about it, you're going to alienate people you don't want to alienated, and think that kind of connection with people is really important, to be able to do, and to be able to do in a way that, like, requires everybody to understand, like, yeah, like, this person loves me and they have my best interest at heart, and this is not a point of criticism, this is a point of like, hey, I know your heart, and this isn't where this comes from, and this is how, like, job in this relationship is to see this and to help you be better, and

0:54:13 Tom: And

0:54:13 Eli: Uh

0:54:13 Thomas: I wish people were more direct in general, like, I know we've, we talked, talked about, like, the radical honesty is, is basically being a fucking piece of shit, and I agree with that, but, like, there's also a radical hypothetical, nobody ever fucking just says what they're actually thinking, ever yeah and it's, and I think it's, I think that's something I struggle with, if I'm being honest, I think I struggle with that a little bit, because that's a reason why I don't, like, if I get to a point with somebody where I, where I'm like, becoming better and better friends, if I feel like they are still doing that, like, fake thing with me, then I'm, okay, we've reached the peak, of that doesn't mean I hate, I'm just like, oh, well, that's as far as we get, because I can't be friends with someone like that in a deeper way, because I don't feel like I can rely on them to give me the, you, maybe it is that very thing, I'm like, I need to be able to feel like they, giving me the feedback of interacting with them, not some fake thing, and then, like, later on just being like, that, actually, I hated that the whole time, and I'm like, okay

0:54:26 Eli: There's also just honesty, yeah right

0:55:13 Thomas: Well, then why were you there, just leave, I don't know, don't, what, who are you doing that for, it's everybody is largely, people are very hesitant, I think it's good, people don't want to, like, hurt people's feelings, but I think if borders on, like, I, of as a culture, we're almost toxically passive -aggressive, I feel like.

0:55:29 Eli: We're we're toxicly uh averse um, and it's, it's, it's something that, especially, I mean, there's a great comedian on TikTok who does this. She has a bunch of TikToks called "Women Talking to Other Women." And it's just like, oh, hey, oh my God, I'm so sorry to bother you, but, like, you did leave the dishes in this thing. Oh my, I am the worst, I'm going to kill myself. No, no, it's me, honestly, I would love to do the dishes, I love doing that, I love the dishes, no, you are, I love you so much, like that toxic fear of conflict. And, hey, I will say, I am numero uno when it comes to that, baby. Like, you will never find a person who is toxically afraid of conflict with anybody but strangers than me. Right? No one is more willing to be like, hey. Why don't we all just sit down and have some hot cocoa?

0:55:31 Tom: Yes. Yeah.

0:55:56 Thomas: God. Yeah.

0:56:15 Thomas: Until one poor soul in Target blocks off your son.

0:56:19 Eli: That's the thing. I have a switch that goes off where I'm just like, Hey, man. Kill yourself. Have a good one.

0:56:22 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah,

0:56:26 Tom: And to call myself out, like I'm kind of the I'm very comfortable picking up the phone or talking to somebody, but I will absolutely I enormously about the best way to communicate something to somebody, so it's maximally well heard, and doesn't do any damage because, like, I do care about these, so, like, when I, when I called Eli, I wasn't like, hey, man, I think you're being a dick. I didn't do that.

0:56:37 Thomas: Yeah. Oh, same.

0:56:50 Tom: Right, I, I, I thought and thought and fought and thought about, like, because this relationship matters to me and because I think I want to be heard and I wantto make sure that that he understands it comes from the right place. And I'm sorry to single you out, Eli, but like you're here

0:56:50 Thomas: Yeah no. Oh yeah.

0:57:03 Eli: No, no. Know, I I I volunteered it, and I, I think it's a good example. Right, it's because, because it's one, relatively harmless, but two, it's, it's like a thing that was going on that I think is good.

0:57:05 Tom: Right Right. Yeah. So so I will do the opposite. I will stress and stress and stress rather than just being like, hey, here's this thing you're doing, you should stop, because I'm, I am very concerned about making sure that they understand that this comes from a place where I really care, and that's why I'm bringing this to you. And so sometimes it'll sound, I think, to a lot of people like I'm hedging or I'm being overly cautious with my language, and that's a struggle that I have. And I don't think it's because I'm conflict averse. It's because I'm, like, really, in my head, at least, I'm really, it's really important to me that it be heard in the spirit that I'm trying to give it in, rather than create

0:57:17 Thomas: You Yeah, totally.

0:57:48 Tom: Conflict where I don't want conflict to occur.

0:57:50 Thomas: And here's what's funny, here's, what I'm realizing is I feel all those same things basically, Tom. And I'm realizing like, well, what am I talking about? Well, I realized that because I'm an introvert and I have these things that I'm talking about, what I do is if someone's behavior is like, me, bad, and I'm not close friends with them. If someone is like acting in a way that I find, you and I don't want to be around, I just don't be around them. But like what other, but I feel like what most people do in our society is for some reason, they still keep all like relationships with people that they hate.

And so I'll have whole friend groups where it's like one friend just hates another friend, but they still are in the same place all the time, and still, and you're just like, why, who is this for? Like, I would just either tell the person or just stop hanging out with them. Why do, but maybe that's just because I have that easy ripcord of, like, oh, I don't really, I can easily just go be by myself. I don't really care, you know? So maybe it's just 'cause I think of it differently, differently. Yes.

0:58:20 Tom: Yeah, yeah, but when we don't, you know, I will say, like, when we don't speak up, we don't, we, we deprive the other person of the opportunity to improve, and that sucks, like,

0:58:49 Thomas: Yeah, but then what people do is they, they get more resentful about, they're like, oh, this person still, despite me never saying anything, hasn't stopped annoying me, and you're like, well, how would they, they don't you haven't ever told them yeah, but

0:59:00 Eli: Right,

0:59:01 Tom: Right, they have no idea right, they have no idea, deal, you're you're going around blithely thinking that you are, like, doing right by someone, and if they don't raise their hand and say, actually, that sucks, and you could be better, and here's how we could, yeah, like

0:59:14 Thomas: I secretly think, I think that secretly people just, like, being in that dynamic, because they like to have someone to shit on, that makes them feel better about themselves, and so I think people don't talk on purpose, like, people like don't I, you don't have those friends where you're like, you just enjoy being above everybody and talking, you know what I mean, like, they like having that person to talk shit about, so they wouldn't want to end that relationship because then they wouldn't have a punching bag. This

0:59:25 Tom: Wow, some people for sure, yeah, Eli,

0:59:39 Eli: Interesting, interesting.

0:59:40 Tom: I don't know if you want to talk about this on this show, but, like, you've got a buddy, and

0:59:42 Eli: I know that's, I was gonna say, I feel very I didn't feel attacked by the no, I do

0:59:44 Tom: I, I don' t, no, I don't want to, no, that's why I said, like, this doesn't have to be main shows, this doesn't have to be on the show, right?

0:59:48 Eli: No because because I know Thomas is describing it exactly to a T, because I have exactly this friend with exactly this dynamic, who I'm like, oh, no, no. And Thomas, I'm sure you've heard me do this bit, because I've got, like, a fucking tight five on it, where I'm, no, no, my friend Gweeblebum is the worst in the world. And you got to.

1:00:07 Thomas: You've done it on this show, I

1:00:08 Eli: Yeah, I just.

1:00:09 Tom: Right,

1:00:09 Thomas: Wasn't even talking about you. Now, but now that I think about it, yeah, no, I, I also don't think you're doing that on purpose, I think you, you just, like, you're the collector of people, so you're, like, as another person, I guess you don't, I don't exactly think that's what I'm talking about, although you also, like, a good roast, I don't know, maybe, maybe you just need a good prime roast target out at all times, yeah, you two are, like, I'm not even joking, like, I think of view is, like, some of my best friends, but I feel so awkward word saying that because we don't get to actually spend time together, but Because my, well, but because my, my brain relationships are based on who I like talking to, and they're not based on, like, oh, I need to be around people.

So, like, for me, I can have the internet friend, I know Tom, I feel like we're just very different on this, I can have the internet friend where I'm like, no, that's, like, my best friend, like, I just, even though we're not physically in proximity, because I don't mind being alone, but I only want, one of the struggles I have is, I get to go on the puzzle vacation, hang out with you and all those guys, I have, like, a good couple of weeks where I come back, I'm like, ah, nobody I know is that fun.

And I'm just like, ah, it's like, I feel a little spoiled, I am, like, well, I get talk to some of the funniest, like, most interesting people, I don't need too many friends, that's where my priority is. So, so actually, I feel like you guys are, like, my favorite friends to talk to, because you're just so fun to talk, you, I mean? It's kind of a weird, awkward position,

1:00:18 Eli: Yeah. That's a that's a generous.

1:00:27 Tom: Yeah,

1:00:29 Eli: It's a generous way to put it. Yeah, that is a generous way to Put it. That's

1:00:40 Tom: Doesn't make it less

1:00:47 Eli: Mm -hmm.

1:01:32 Eli: Have the exact same thing and it's it's funny. It's it must have gotten cut from the show because we actually made a joke about it after this most recent Matreon. There was sort of like a weird pause in the record and he just goes, I miss Thomas. Also, I just, uh, want to say this, because again, it really is not a big deal, but I don't want people to, like, be worried or anything. The thing that Tom had to talk to me about, just because I don't want people worried that it was, like, some horrible toxic thing, is I hit Anna when I get mad, um, so that's, that's all that it was, and we've worked it, well, she, she's worked it through.

1:01:44 Thomas: But yeah, maybe

1:01:59 Tom: I my god,

1:02:02 Thomas: No, stop joking. It's that you keep waking people up with ice cubes, dripping ice cubes into their mouths and I, I I didn't have the guts to tell you, I had to have Tom talk to you, like, Tom, can you just tell him please?

1:02:07 Eli: Ice cubes into their mouths and damn it, I won't stop, you had to you had to

1:02:14 Thomas: He keeps

1:02:15 Eli: Phrase, you had to set up a fake movie starring Vanilla It, cost you, like, 17 cameos in a row to get them.

1:02:17 Thomas: Yeah, in fairness, it only cost you, like, 30 bucks to get all the

1:02:25 Eli: Yeah, get that much time with Iced Tea

1:02:28 Thomas: Iced Tea, Vanilla Ice.

1:02:30 Tom: I I'm I'm curious if this happens to you guys, because this happens to me a lot. Do you have friends that will have conflict and they'll reach out to you to help resolve it? Are you the mediator for other people's... This used to happen to me online a lot more. My friends, I would get these side messages. This used to happen more in the past than it does now, but I would get these messages from my friends and be like, I need some help. I'm in this argument with this person, and just jump in? Here's a link to what's going on and I'd be like yeah well let me see what's gone oh yeah I understand and I'll just pop in and be like, hey, alright, you guys are talking past each other, here's what's gonna, then just kind of help mediate the difference between it. I used to do that for people all the time, much less so in the last several years, but it used to be, like, a role I filled, a

1:02:30 Thomas: Oh,

1:02:41 Eli: Constantly, always.

1:02:44 Thomas: Man, oh, wow, so Here's

1:03:14 Tom: Lot

1:03:14 Thomas: What I have, that, I'm not sure if it's precisely the same thing. I have always been the person because of my personality who people don't try their bullshit on. So I'll be the person where someone will come talk to me and be like, yeah, you know, this person, they said this, this, and I'm like, wow, they don't say anything like that to me. Now I'm in a disbelieving way, but like people who try, especially men, like I've had, God, God, do you ever have a female friend complain to you about a dude that, you know, and you're like, wow, that's a different person than I know.

1:03:31 Tom: Yeah,

1:03:44 Thomas: And that's slightly a different issue. That's because men are fucking bullshit artists when it comes to dealing with women often, you know? But like I have that, but with like everybody where I think because I'm so not receptive to certain methods don't know what it is. Like there's certain ways people act that's fake that I just don't, that I don't respond to.

1:03:43 Eli: Absolute, the that you instantly call You instantly call out in a way I've never seen in a human being before, because I've seen it happen at conventions. People will come up and they'll be like, "Hey Thomas, I don't know what you're doing, are you doing a thing, you're doing like a weird, I don't like it, I don't think you like it either, and my body's turning, look at my body turn up, I'm not in control of this."

1:04:22 Thomas: I don't know about that but oh man yeah that's weird anyway

1:04:26 Eli: All That's a story for another Day. All Right, gentlemen, before we go, important update. The other day someone told me it's impossible to make a pun about vegetables. I said, "Not necessary." All right.

1:04:28 Thomas: Let's

1:04:48 Tom: Oh, we

1:04:50 Thomas: Always, there is an extended story time for patrons, but I am coming in to tell you, all right, here's the thing. We just got done recording our monthly patron-only bonus, which is a Q&A this time. And I'm so sorry to do this to you non-patrons, but you have to listen to it.

Like it just, you gotta get on the... this was a Tom story that I am still shook, I'm just shaken from, like, I can't even, I don't even know what to say, we heard a Tom story toward the end of this one that has changed my life, and there's no way to like redo it for you guys on the normal thing, you just should become a patron, I'm sorry, just do it, sorry, patreon.com/dearolddads, you can even just sign on, get the special, you know, and then sign off.

It's going to be out in a few days, by the way. It's I'm telling you, you got to be a patron for this. This has changed my life. I can't even believe it. All right. But anyway, happy holidays, Merry Christmas, and other assorted things because anyway, love you folks so much, thank you so much for listening, please tell a friend about the show and have happy holidays loved ones or without them if they suck, you know because that's the other theme of this show. Take care.

1:06:08 Clip: Want to meet sexy DILFs in your area? Email the dads at DearOldDads.com or, better yet, send us a message on Patreon. You can follow us on all social media by checking the links in the show notes. And if you need more podcasts in your life, you can find Tom on Cognitive Dissonance, Thomas on Serious Inquiries Only, and Eli on Godawful Movies and all the Puzzle in the Thunderstorm shows. Dear Old Dads is edited and produced by my favorite DILF, Tom Smith, who also wrote and recorded the intro music, which is used with his permission. This podcast is a production of Daddy Issues LLC. Copyright 2022. All rights reserved.

1:06:46 Tom: This is the hardest part of the show for Me

1:06:48 Thomas: Is The hardest part for me because I could do a story every time and I'm like I don's know how to communicate that I could doing a story and I love doing stories but I also don't want to be the guy who does the stories every time.