AS171: Secular Parent Panel, Part 3

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:30 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to episode 171 of Atheistically Speaking. I'm your host, Thomas Smith. All right, today we go to part three of the parent panel. Very fun, very good stuff, very informative. I know that there are people who had even more questions that they wish we would have gotten to, but we just didn't have time. We took already almost two hours unedited. It was like over two hours. So very fun, and I really want to do this again sometime. Quick announcement before we get to that, though. The debate that I am hosting, atheistically speaking, first ever live debate moderated by me. I'm very excited. It has an official date now. It's Justin Schieber, it's Robert Johnson.

0:01:17 Thomas: The debate will focus on the problem of suffering, and the official date and time set in stone is the 26th of this month, so September 26th at 12 p.m. Pacific time. Now, this is going to be a live event, so set your calendars and make sure you can listen because it's going to be live broadcast on Google Hangouts, and it will be very important to get some live questions for you guys. That's something from you guys, rather. That is something I want to try to do, and And it's the kind of thing where if I can do it and get some good representation from my listeners and some good questions, it will propel further when I want to do the next event. Whereas if I get zero participation, it's going to be, you know, a little harder to sell another debate between people.

0:02:08 Thomas: So I would really appreciate it if you guys mark that in your calendars. I will give you a Google Hangouts link that already is set up that has the date and all that. So look for that very soon. Again, really excited to do this first time for the show, and hopefully we can have success. And if you can't listen live, it'll be broadcast that week as the episodes. So if you can listen live then you're getting the episodes early. It's going to be definitely lengthy, so it'll take the place of the episodes for that week. If you can listen, you're getting it early. If can't, then listen. I'll probably edit and, you know, make it, clean it up a little bit for the podcast. So there you go. So, and without further ado, let's get to part three with that really fun, really important, I think, parent panel.

0:03:10 Thomas: I don't know if I'm gonna sit any of my kids down for a talk, you know? And I don't know, it may be. Gerald, what do you guys think, Angie and Allison, does Gerald right that that might be kind of an artifact?

0:03:22 Panel: Well, I mean, at some point you have to have a checkpoint of what do, what do you know, and then you have to figure out do they know what's accurate or what's inaccurate. So are they not getting sex had then at school?

0:03:35 Thomas: So are they not getting sex ed then at school?

0:03:38 Panel: Well, when I talked to my child, it was mainly because he was, like I said, about to step up into a larger school that I felt like he was about to get a lot of peer information. So I told him, you're about to get, you know, a lot of peer information, and mostly the people who talk about it in sixth, seventh and eighth grade are not actually people who know a damn thing about it. So why don't you talk to somebody who knows something about it? And so I wanted him him to have the correct information before he went into that environment.

Now, here in our district, we have uh puberty stuff happening in fourth and fifth grade, um, but that is not sex ed at all, it's just body parts and how puberty happens, uh, and then seventh grade they actually get real sex ed, um, but without any contraceptive information, and then in the end of eighth grade, yeah, oh, I'm telling you, we had to fight for that shit, fight for it, and at the end of the eighth grade, that's when they get the contraceptive information, if the parents approve it, because

0:03:51 Thomas: Sure. Oh My god.

0:04:43 Panel: In ninth grade, you know, the girls, what happens is the pregnancy rate goes up tremendously because the girls are with the senior boys, that you know, in the ninth grade. So, but my kid, had, then he just finished up the eighth grade this year, he's a ninth grader now, and so going into the curriculum, I helped, you know, I was involved in choosing it, which, that's not the one that we initially chose, but that's a whole other story that could be through another three-hour podcast, but I knew what the it was going to cover, and it's not great, but it is medically accurate, it is evidence-based and peer-reviewed, but it's nicht engaging in any way, and that's exactly how the parents wanted it, they did not want it to be engaging, they want dry facts just presented to their kids because they want, they don't want it to be interesting and fun because then they'll think sex is interesting and fun and they'll go do it, which is the mentality around here.

0:05:35 Panel: So I sat him down before he went to the program and he was trying to laugh it off. And I said, no, this is actually very important information. You need to listen to all of it because this is probably the most influential thing that you can know in your life is how to protect yourself from diseases and protect protect uh women from pregnancy, because controlling the amount of children that you have is the most important factor in your quality of life, as I'm speaking for, as a woman's point of view. So I just told him, you're freaking paying attention, and we're going over all the worksheets that they send home too, so, and they, so they send them a thing every single night, you go over it, so, so they create that opportunity.

0:06:23 Panel: But yeah, I mean, at some point, you know, my kids are older and I remember when they were young and they were, yeah, I didn't know what they knew and didn't know. And if you sit down and make a conversation happen, that's how you get information from them. And my older son's not talkative. See, my younger son's more informative. He'll tell me things. So things could probably happen in a more organic way with him. But my older son is not very verbal. He doesn't just have a lot of wordy conversations. So you have to kind of poke and prod at him to figure out what's going on in his head. Yeah, I'm kind of somewhere in the middle, I think. You know, I love the idea of having small, very organic conversations that just he mentions something or asks a question.

0:07:11 Panel: And it leads to, you know, me directing information that I want him to have about this particular topic, you know, but I do definitely agree with you, Allison, that like at some point, you know, the information that he is going to be receiving from peers or like from even just like cultural exposure, TV, movies, you know, because like sex doesn't really work like those, you know, college frat movies, you know, where everybody's having, you know, wild orgy parties and there's no consequences and it's all fun, and you know, like, so I mean, even like those types of influences, like, you know, you kind of need to know what they know, um, and so I do think, you know, at some point, if those conversations don't happen in an organic manner, um, if it doesn't come up just in the course of your everyday life, stopping and taking a time out to say, okay, hey, like, let's just, like you said, check in.

0:08:11 Panel: And, you know, what do you guys know? You know, what do not know? Oh, that is super, super wrong. You know? Like, let me, you know, direct your attention to these facts.

0:08:24 Panel: You know, I do think that that is an important part of this process because this is not something as a parent that you can ignore, like whether you have the talk with them or not, whether you give them any information or not, you know, they're gonna have these urges, they may or may not act on them, you know, but I'm gonna guess that they are, um, you're, I think the way I've always viewed it, you know, even before we approached the age where it was relevant, was it's gonna happen whether or not I stick my head in the sand about it, like, I gotta get in front of this and make sure that I'm at least like sort of controlling the type of like the flow of information that he is going to have available to him is just going to be astronomical, and I am not going to control it all, and I wouldn't want to, I think an important part of sexual development is exploring and learning yourself and your tastes and what you like and what you don't like and which you're attracted to.

And so, you know, I do think that I don't want to control ultimately, but I do want to make sure that my voice is also heard in the den, you know, like that he does receive at least the minimal amount of information that I think is the bare minimum that he must have about this topic.

0:09:47 Panel: Yeah, if I can just re reiterate, I, what I wasn't saying was it'll just happen and stuff, but what I really was saying was, um, taking the time, um, uh, ahead of time to force, um, more conversations earlier, um, so that there's not a sudden gap of information, um, so, you know, when me and my seven-year-old last year talked about tree sex, it was an okay conversation to have, and it was okay for me to use the word sex because he knew that sex was, in some way, making babies. There's a boy and a girl in the reproductive sense, at least.

0:09:47 Thomas: Go ahead, Gerald.

0:10:37 Panel: And, you know, that was an incremental part that I forced, not necessarily, you know, it, yeah, what I didn't want to imply was that you shouldn't, you should avoid having, talk, the talk, or any talk, because it does take something from a parent, like we've all identified, it doesn't feel natural to want to talk about sexual things with your child, um, and so my my only main point was to try and force yourself more often so that those conversations can hopefully eventually come from the child rather than from the parent, so that, like you've both said before, you know, let me know if you have any questions or if you want to talk about anything, you know, have they so far, and and hopefully they will, and I hope that my son will as well, but I don't imagine that that's going to happen anytime soon, but, um, you know, that has a lot to do with environment and other people's impressions of sex and sexual activity and the naughtiness and acceptance of that, it's definitely a, it's a continual conversation, it's not, it's certainly not one talk and you're done and we never shall speak of this again, yeah.

0:11:46 Panel: And I wonder, continuous conversation, I

0:11:46 Thomas: Yeah, and I wonder, Gerald, if maybe some part of that, I totally agree with what you're saying, I wonder if any part of that is the discomfort and the, I guess, maybe the kind of shame and the ick factor that maybe really religious parents feel with anything involving sex, if that's a product of that. If the stereotypical way of dealing with it, and you see Even in pop culture, you see it. I remember there was a commercial I saw somewhat recently where some, I don't know how old the kid would have been, but maybe the kid was five, six, seven, something like that. And they asked, where do babies come from? And the comedy of it was the parents freaking out, going crazy, not knowing how to answer. And I thought, well, that's idiotic. I don't know why that would be such a problem.

0:12:36 Thomas: But maybe it comes from there's such a discomfort and then for one hour, for however long it takes, the parents are like, okay, we finally, we're going to do this once. We're going knock this out of the way. We're kind of maybe just talk about sex one time and then I never, I get to be uncomfortable and avoid it the rest of the, you know, other 365 days of the year, whatever. But I wonder if that's part of it. And I also want to say, now that I thought of that, what would you guys say or what did you guys say if your kids asked you at a certain age, where do babies come from? Because I do think that happens quite often. Maybe not that exact phrasing, of course, but is that something, because I viewed that freak out portrayed in the commercial I saw as absolutely ridiculous.

0:13:24 Panel: Yeah, well, um, you know, I think that we've, we've talked about how much it depends on the personality, and, uh, sure, Development of the child, but also, um, just as much it depending on the parent. Um, my wife isn't here so I have to speak for her. Um, but she doesn't do well with improvisation.

Um, when when she and I are talking about things that are important as adults, just the two of us, we've been married for almost 13 years, she's like, all right, I'm gonna try, and she'll try and express her thoughts, no that wasn't it, let me try again, so she has to iteratively express herself until it is actually what she really means, so she is not inclined to have impromptu conversations, um, about comfortable things, let alone uncomfortable things.

Um, so yeah, maybe maybe you're right, absolutely, if if you know you see the band-aid edge starting to come up and you think, well, fuck, I might as well rip the damn thing off, um, and that's the way to get it, get it over and done with, then, yeah, it depends as much, I think, on the parent, because, um, truly parenting

0:13:32 Thomas: Sure. Oh,

0:14:30 Panel: I was speaking disparagingly at that Oh, no, I know, I don't know, I I don't

0:14:30 Thomas: I was speaking Speaking disparagingly of that, I don't know. I think, well, I was going for more. Here, we've circled around each other, Gerald, but I was trying to say that I think your approach of early and often kind of, that strikes me as a better approach, or just being open and honest about it. Whereas maybe the one-time, get-it-over-with sex talk is a product of not being able to be sort of free of that discomfort and just weirdness talking about sex often.

0:15:06 Panel: Yeah, I think both can be true. Both can be, cause it depends. You know, I, I came out of religion when my son was an infant. Um, but if I had come out of religion, when he was a teenager, teenager, my personal situation would have been very different, and the the the history I had with my son would have then therefore also been very difficult. Um, so I think that that it depends on everything, um, that that plays into it, all of the many factors, but I'm trying, since I have the opportunity, to start from the beginning with my son, um, thinking critically, um, trying to to be be rational, and let that inform the thing that I do on purpose. And that's my personal mission as a parent, to try and parent those things out in my mind first and see if I lived up to my own expectations. Yeah, what I think you were saying, the reactive, caught off guard, that's a naive and stupid parental move in any situation.

0:16:05 Thomas: Amateurs.

0:16:06 Panel: Yeah, come on. It's the first time you've had kids, do, but yeah, well, and kids are different level, have different levels of inquisitiveness, because obviously, Gerald, your son, would, he was looking for information, he was curious, he wanted to know, my kid at eight, you know, both of my children at eight, um, weren't, um, as far as I know, that inquisitive about that particular topic, um, if they were, they were not, you know, I really don't think they were, I think, um, but anyway, I'm sorry, that's okay, so you never face the situation, children are asking you, first you have to figure out what is this kid really asking, what are they wanting to know, and then you answer that question, because, you know, they'll ask for what they're, they're ready to know, you have to figure out what they're asking for. But like, it's not just, it's not just the talk.

It's not an information dump, you know, at age 12 or whatever, because the information that we're also trying, that you have impart is, especially to boys, you know, there's a legal, it's not just, you know, the penis goes in the vagina and all this and that. It's also, there are legal ramifications, implications, there's consent implications, you have to talk about all those things, and those don't happen right up front, that happens, like, that's what we're talking about now, whenever we talk about it, is consent,

0:16:45 Thomas: That's okay. So you never face the situation. Yeah.

0:17:38 Panel: Know, you see what I'm saying, yeah, yeah, and like, see, you know, that's an interesting, because like, I almost feel like, like, the technical part of the conversation, the, like, you know, the mechanics of it and the, you know, this is how you protect yourself and this is how you prevent pregnancy and that kind of stuff.

Like that, I feel like is an, at least for me, for the type of parent that I am and the type of person that I'm, like, that's an easier conversation to have.

But like, for me, the thing that I, the most worried about making sure that I drive home with him, is like more of the interpersonal parts of it, and, like, you know, like you were saying, like, consent and stuff like that, like, that's obviously very important, especially, you know, like you said, having a boy, but from, you know, even like to a lesser degree, like, you know, I think that there's like a lot of like cultural information and like societal information that, like, I can, like, I can distinctly remember in high school, like, I, I have a very vivid memory of going to high school and, like, everyone, like, this one particular girl walking across, like, the common area of our school, and everybody stopped talking and just kind of, like, looked at her, and then they all started laughing. And I found out later that it was because the rumor was going around that she had sex with a boy, and everyone, like, ostracized her.

But of course they were slapping him on the back and, like, good job, you know, and it's like, I feel like that kind of stuff, like, like, it's very important for me to, that my child understands that, like, that's not cool, like you don't, like, if you're friends with this girl and then you

0:19:23 Panel: Find out she has sex with some guy, you don't stop talking to her, she's no different today because she had sex than she was yesterday when y'all were still friends, so, like, that's the kind of stuff that, you know, I feel like for me and, like, for my child, you know, is a more important conversation, and I also feel like, I guess, and maybe again, like I said, I a lot of my views are very reactionary to the way I grew up, but like another part of it is that he understands that he doesn't need to be ashamed of any of his private thoughts and feelings as he's developing, you, like, it's very very important too for me to impart that, like, there is a difference between fantasy and reality. Like, it is a hundred percent normal and okay to fantasize about things and think that they are arousing in your brain.

0:20:10 Panel: And they kind of, if they happened in real life, would probably not be cool and not be okay, you know, and not be a healthy thing for a relationship and for, you know, for you to engage in, but it's okay to think about those things and be aroused by those things, that doesn't necessarily mean you have to go out and do them in real life, and, you know, so, like, those are the kinds of conversations that, you know, that I think

0:20:35 Thomas: Yeah. Is that a talk you've had or one you're planning to have?

0:20:35 Panel: Yeah. I definitely am planning to, oh, it's, you guys, you just opened up a can of worms, I, we have not done any specific, like, we've, we've kind of skirted around the edges of those talks with my son, but my husband and I are not a hundred percent on the same page as far as morality, and just throwing it all out there, he is still religious and very actively religious. And my better judgment, I allow my child to attend religious education, vocation, and stuff like that, you know, cause I figured, you know, I went through all that crap, and my parents paid for, I actually went to, like, a religious college, um, you know, that it wasn't like an actual, like, college, college, where I got a degree.

0:21:28 Panel: Like it was literally just theology classes, college level. They would have counted for college credit. Had I like transferred to like us, like a state school or something, but it was just theology. Like, and I did that during the summers, all four years of high school. Oh, it was ridiculous. You know, and I still came out of it okay, you know, with rational thought and thinking.

So I feel like, you know, just because he's exposed to religion doesn't necessarily mean he's going to be religious, but we are nearing the age where, you know, the, well, that's actually a topic that my husband and I, we've tabled it because we're not, it's not an appropriate time with our, you know, life situation right now. But, we're getting to the age where the religious education curriculum is focused on sexual morality and it's like I absolutely 100 will not allow him to receive his information on sexual immorality From A religious Perspective, that is something that like I will pack my bags and walk out of our home before I allow that to happen because I will not let what happened to me happen to my child, so that is something I feel very, very strongly about.

So anyway, I do want to have the talk with him and I do wanna give him good information and I do, but you know, I feel like first my husband and I kind of have to get on the same page or at least come to an agreement about how we want to approach the subject before we really move forward. Because I do feel like that's a topic that you can't have two parents that tell you different things. Yeah.

Yeah, I like what you you said about how things that you may think in your own mind and the role of fantasy, I think that that kind of comes full circle to the impetus of this conversation with porn.

0:22:25 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Well,

0:23:19 Panel: You know, there are things which are fantasy. And the truth is that, you know, when you're watching pornography, you're not watching a loving, healthy relationship. You're watching a staged sexual act. And that is is something that truly is played out fantasy for visual consumption. Whoa, whoa, whoa. What do you mean stage?

0:23:39 Thomas: What do you mean stage? Wait

0:23:41 Panel: Wait a minute. Someone needed to have this talk with me.

0:23:41 Thomas: A minute. This is someone needed to have this talk with me.

0:23:43 Panel: That's not really the pool. You're telling me that's not actually real. Nope. And so there is a place, time, and a way in which that is entirely individually appropriate, appropriate, but not, definitely not, and undefensively not in other ways, in other times, in other places, and I think that's probably the harder conversation to have is, well, I don't know, maybe not, only watch porn by yourself until you're sexually active, but then when should you be, and yeah, It's a rabbit hole, you can, one question leads to another, leads to a, Yeah. You know, I think, and again, I know I keep going back to like, you know, my own experiences in my own upbringing, but like, that was a very important realization for me that like, there was nothing wrong with me just because things that like I thought

0:23:44 Thomas: You're telling me that's not actually real.

0:24:36 Panel: Were arousing in a fantasy setting, you knows, like, like there is nothing wrong with me for being turned on by a particular thing that like in real life, I would in no way want like you know things that you know that I consume for my own you know fantasy purposes when I watch pornography or when I watched you I watch porn sometimes but I more likely to like read porn like I don't know I read a lot of erotica and stuff and you know like the the type of stories that I like you no enjoy like if a guy did that to me in real life I'd punch him in in the face, but you know, like in a book, it's hot, you know?

And it's like, and it's only hot because I understand that it's fantasy. But when, you know, like growing up, you know, I guess for a lot of religious people, like there is no separation between fantasy and reality and not on this subject. Yeah. Yeah, you know, like what you like, because literally thinking about sex is like the thought crime, I mean you, that's a sin, thinking about sex as a sin, it's a thought crime, so literally what you, I mean what's that line from the Bible that I was

0:25:13 Thomas: I was

0:25:49 Panel: Just going to say yeah well

0:25:49 Thomas: Just going to say, I just read that. Well I was thinking the one that, yeah, if you're a, if your, what is it? If your right hand would offend you, then cut off your hand. If your eye would, you know, if your eye wood, uh, it's essentially saying kind of what you're saying where, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Pluck it out. Yeah. It's that you, your own body is in a war against you with these things and that you need to actually cut off your, your arms and legs and gouge out your eyes just because you're having these thoughts. Like it's insane. It's absolutely insanity.

0:26:22 Panel: Absolutely and like I mean that was drilled into my head for so long and with like even though like I never it's so weird how like grew up in a religious home but like I I, I probably was always an atheist. I don't know if I ever like really, like, I don't know how to explain it. Like, I didn't believe the stuff that they were telling me.

I was like, I always kind of knew it was bullshit, but like, I thought it was like—and it's—it never occurred to me like that it wasn't true. Like because I was trusting the adults in my life that were telling me like that this thing is a true thing.

But like I always—like I always thought it was my fault like I just didn't believe hard enough like I just had to pray harder and like I would become a true believer and you know and so like I mean that was like a real like I wanted to believe this I just never did but like even though like none of that other stuff ever took hold like I never believed like the little wafer became Jesus and all that like none of that like ever took hold for me but the sexual stuff did like that really and even now I mean that I've been like out of religion and very open about the fact that I'm out of religion for years like I still have like some very instinctual like shame and discomfort in regards to sex that is a byproduct of my upbringing and so it's like you know but I mean it was a very important realization for me that like Like, there was nothing wrong with me that thinking in a fantasy setting, like, a really aggressive, like possessive man was hot.

0:27:57 Panel: You know, whereas, like in real life, I wouldn't want anything to do with that because you're a freak and that's unhealthy. Because that's called rape. Yeah, like – you know what I'm saying? But, you know, or like a super controlling guy or whatever because, like bro, like step off. Off I can do my own shit and I don't need you to tell like I don't need you to tell me what to do, but like in a fantasy setting, super hot, it works for me, you know, so like I don't know, I guess like it's, it was a really important realization for me to understand that like that there's nothing wrong with me, like I'm not bad, I'm not messed up in the head and I want to make sure I can

0:28:39 Thomas: I can certainly relate to that. I CAN CERTAINLY RELATE TO THAT. And I think just, um, I, I unfortunately, I need to try to bring this to a close, but I really could talk to you guys forever. It''s, it''s been really interesting for me, especially not being a parent yet. But I will say that I think, hopefully, Angie, and maybe this will help, maybe it won't, but I would suspect that just raising your kids not to be religious helps with a lot of that. Because I think that there's a big danger, one of the big dangers of religion, whether or not it is in every religious case workplace or not, I think one of the big dangers is setting up a false idea of perfection that everybody's supposed to adhere to. And I think that's very dangerous because like you said, as a kid, you can turn on yourself.

0:29:28 Thomas: You can say, wait a minute, I'm having weird thoughts like every kid does at a certain age, especially boys or I guess boys and girls. I'm having weird, you know, kind of maybe thoughts that I don't think people would approve of what's wrong with me? You know, like, what's happening to me with this? Why am I doing... When you have that unrealistic paradigm of reality, where everybody's supposed to be perfect, and, you we're all children of God and all that, that can really cause you to turn in on yourself. Whereas if you're just raised with the idea that, yeah, we are, it turns out, we re all animals, you You know, we're, humans are all roughly the same, you know, like we're on rough terms. We're very similar. So that, that I know in my life that caused me to say, well, if I'm having thoughts like this, like I'm guessing everybody else is too.

0:30:18 Thomas: And we're just not talking about it, you know, because if you're, if you're a hardcore Christian or if you're raised with, or, or hardcore any religion, usually you could start to think like, Ooh, people aren't talking about this because they're not having these thoughts. I'm the only one who having them, you know, like. Because I'm, I'm bad or something, you know? And I think there's, I think just merely raising your kids not to be insanely religious, um, it will go a long way to, to help that. I would, I would hope, but, uh, it, I, I've going to have to say, um, if anyone wants to give a few closing thoughts, if all of you want to give it a few, closing thoughts, go ahead. But, uh,, unfortunately we are, we've gone so much time. I don't know how I'm going to squeeze this all in, but we'll see what we can do. I'll go in reverse order. Gerald, you start. Any closing thoughts?

0:31:05 Panel: Oh, well actually it was just really nice to hear other people's perspectives. Um, I think that, uh, perspective is valid and because it comes from a whole lifetime of experience. And, you know, I think that discussions like this are something that, you Know, the medium of podcasting is something that can be so intimate and personal with people you've never literally never met before. And, and it's a way to communicate things, maybe in a way that you don't have the ability with family and friends and others around you. You know, it's just a really, really great opportunity for me to talk through some things, and sounding board, you know, am I crazy for, you know, this idea or that idea? But yeah, it was really nice. It was good to talk with everybody about it.

0:31:52 Thomas: Excellent. I totally agree. How about you, Allison? Any closing thoughts?

0:31:55 Panel: I really enjoyed this. Thank you for inviting me. And And, yeah, it's been eye-opening. I think we're all on the same page that shame and guilt are not useful and very damaging. And we're always trying to stay away from that.

0:32:13 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. How about you Angie?

0:32:15 Panel: For making me laugh so that I sound like I'm just copying off of everybody else. You know, really. If you give me a decent bribe, I can edit you in first so that you sound like a genius. You know, I was going to say, you said you were going to go in reverse order, and you actually mixed me and Allison up. Oh, did I?

0:32:21 Thomas: If you, if you give me a decent bribe, I can edit you in first so that you sound like a genius.

0:32:36 Panel: Oh, you sexist bastards. You're going to get pedantic emails from somebody going, well, you weren't technically going in reverse. Oh, man.

0:32:35 Thomas: Oh, did I? Oh, yeah. Oh man.

0:32:46 Panel: I lost track of what I was doing halfway through.

0:32:46 Thomas: I lost track of what I was doing halfway through. Awesome.

0:32:49 Panel: I'm just messing with you. I don't care. No. I mean, I guess just to kind of echo, know, their thoughts, it's been really nice to have very frank and open discussions about what other parents are doing and to kind kind of get some different perspectives and to kind of maybe take some of their really good ideas and mold them into, you know, thoughts and, and things that I had, planned for my own, you know, child. So, um, you know, this has been really fun and I do appreciate you inviting me. It's been a good time. Tech issues and all.

0:33:27 Thomas: Thank you guys all. I totally agree with what everybody, the consensus, if we reach one consensus, it was that we all had a good time. And thank you guys so much for coming on, on sharing. I know we all shared some interesting stories that hopefully no one, any of us knows will ever listen to this, but if other people do and they get something out of it, then that'll be great. So thank you so much for joining me and I will talk to you guys another time.

0:33:58 Panel: Thank you. Thanks. Thanks.