AS172: Tommentary On Ahmed; Sam Harris; Maajid Nawaz

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:30 Thomas: Hello and welcome to episode 172 of Atheistically Speaking. I am your host, Thomas Smith. Alright, well it has been a while. I think this is a perfect day of the podcast to do a bit of commentary, a bit maybe some listener comments if I can find some good ones. There's a ton of stuff to talk about. And I've got a great two-parter coming up, so rather than start that today and Monday, I thought, well let's do a nice opinion show, lots of things I have opinions on that I hope you will find interesting, and then next week we can do that wonderful two-parter, I have good two-part interview. So I suppose if that's the case, then we might as well play that Tom and Terry music.

0:01:21 Thomas: Well, currently happening as I'm recording this is the Republican debate. Well, both of them, I guess. And that's certainly something I could theoretically have talked about. But I'll be honest, I find it so absurd that I think I'm going to save that for my comedy podcast, which is, of course, Comedy Shoeshine. So you can check out that absurd podcast, where we will be able to give you some expert and hopefully funny, barely funny, funny, barely intelligible commentary on the Republican debate. I don't really think it's worth talking about on this show, except for the fact, I guess maybe I'll just say briefly, it is really horrifying to imagine that Ben Carson could possibly be president.

0:02:07 Thomas: The only thing maybe more horrifying than that is imagining that Trump could be president, and then the only thing after that is whoever the next guy is. So obviously I'm displaying a bit of of a liberal bent, of course. And I know that not all my listeners are liberals. I know many are. But despite that, I do want to say, like, I have a lot of conservative feelings, several. And if there were a worthwhile conservative candidate, it's possible that I could support that candidate. It's certainly possible. I am open to good candidates on either their side.

But just the fact that every single one of these clowns has to talk about how they fully support abortion and in the case of, you know, incest and everything, like virtually all of them have just outlandish views like that. And some people have argued, well, they can never get abortion overturned. They're never going to do anything. Yeah, I don't know. I still, I cannot not in good conscience, vote for somebody who expresses insane ideas about, uh, that sort of thing. So that's just brief thoughts, but I, that's not going to be what I'm going to talk about.

0:03:17 Thomas: Um, just wanted to let you guys know if you are looking for that, I think it's more suitable for a sort of a comedy show. So it'll be on comedy. She shined probably next week. So, what am I talking about? Well, Ahmed Mohamed. I'm sure you've heard about this by now. A 14-year-old who brought a clock to school, according to him, to impress his teacher and was arrested. Now, obviously, when I saw this, and I'm sure when all of you saw this I was just outraged. I mean, it seems ridiculous. I don't know how you You couldn't, I don't know where the communication could have broken down. Like that's what, I mean, I think on a surface level, if anyone brings something to a school that could be a bomb, there ought to at least be, you know, questions.

0:04:10 Thomas: First off, I make sure you just chat. I mean who knows? People, kids do try to do things at schools. Kids of any, actually predominantly white kids. So I'd almost be profiling the other way if we're talking about profiling. But anyway, kids have been known at times to bring things to school and cause horrible violence and killings. I mean, it's happened. So that's why I say you should at least ask some questions and communicate and figure out what's going on. That's the part I don't get. I don't get why it couldn't be established that, oh, this is just a clock. No, it's not a bomb. I'm just, it's a clock, here's how it works or something. I mean, is the fear so high that you can't even, the teacher couldn't even do that?

0:04:56 Thomas: I mean I, anyway, it seemed absurd. It seemed, it just, uh, the kid is, I saw the interview with the kid. He's, he's really bright. Uh, got a great future ahead of him. Um, but here's what I want to say. I think this would be not very valuable commentary if I came on here and just said, oh, how dumb of all these teachers to do this and, and how, how great of us to, to realize it. I think there's, there's a few things I want to say here. First off, I, I do think that there is definitely a risk of some racial profiling going on. And I think it's really unfortunate. People have pointed out comparisons to, uh, here's some white children who brought clocks to school. Here's some, you know, here's some white children who built a fake bomb for a science project or something.

0:05:43 Thomas: Uh, that one, it turns out the teacher already knew what was like, they planned it together, kind of, the teacher knew. So, I mean, the context matters a little bit. I think there's quite a bit of just gotcha stuff where it's like, you just look at the headline, oh, this white kid built a bomb and it was totally fine. Well, okay, there's a little more to the story than that. I want to get after what there is to the history. But I definitely think when you look at the weight of the evidence, it seems likely that Ahmed's race and, I guess, religion played a part in this and that's very unfortunate. And it's sad, you know, it's sad that, you know, the teacher couldn't treat him like the teacher might treat any other kid who's looked very bright, very curious, very promising.

0:06:33 Thomas: But I do want to say I looked specifically for the police, for their point of view, because I'm always going to look for every point of view. It is too easy to just jump on to the easy, the bandwagon of, oh, I can't believe these people. They're horrible. They are all racist. The cops are all racist. They ought to be shot or fired or something. Maybe, maybe, but let's see what they say. So, I found this statement by the officer and let's keep an open mind to it and see what it says.

0:07:07 Clip: The student showed the device to a teacher who was concerned that it was possibly the infrastructure for a bomb. School resource officers questioned the student about his intentions and the reason why he brought the device to the school. The student would only say that it is a clock and was not forthcoming at that time about any other details. Having no other information to go on and taking into consideration the device's suspicious appearance and the safety of the students and the staff at MacArthur High School, the student was taken into custody for possession of a hoax bomb.

0:07:44 Clip: Under Texas law, a person is guilty of possessing a hoax bomb if he possesses a device that is intended to cause anyone to be alarmed or a reaction of any type by law enforcement officers. Following the standard procedures that we have, the students was handcuffed for his safety and for the safety of the officers and was transported to a juvenile processing processing center here at the police station, recognizing additional facts were required. The student was released to his parents, so further investigation could be completed. Our reaction, and you've seen the image, our reaction would have been the same either way. That's a very suspicious device. We live in an age where you can't take things like that to schools. Of course, we've seen across our country horrific things happen. We have to err on the side of caution.

0:08:30 Clip: The reaction would've been the sam regardless if a device like that is found under under the circumstances that it was found in this school.

0:08:37 Thomas: I think it's very important to look at the image that's in this picture. Now, I can link this article. It's a New York Times article. The picture that, now, when I heard, you know, built a clock, I thought, well, a clock. It'd be pretty hard to mistake that for a bomb. Well, I don't know. Look at the picture. And I know I'm not just playing devil's advocate. I really do want to consider what you would do as a teacher. It is part of a suitcase, case. It's a lot of wires. It is a circuit board. It isn't really clear what it is. I mean, look, I still think, I still stand by my statement before listening to that, that I think that communication could have solved this.

0:09:22 Thomas: I think they could have bypassed the whole police part. I bet the teacher could have said, hey, what is this? What's going on? Explain to me how this works? What's, you know, make sure that you can see there's probably not explosives attached. I mean, that much, I'm sure that much you can make that determination. But to say outright that it is impossible that it has something to do with a bomb, I don't know. I mean, look at the picture. It's, I could see being alarmed by that. I really could. And then combine that with possibly some some amount of, I don't know if I'd say bigotry, but I would say mistrust of someone who looks Muslim. That's certainly a factor.

0:10:09 Thomas: And it could be a factor in that. That would, of course, be wrong. And, and it would be something that I think, but honestly, like I said, I mean, I would be more paranoid of a white kid with like long hair and I don't know, a dress like, similar in style to the Columbine shooters or something. I don't know. Trenchcoat kind of thing. I mean, that would make me far more nervous. I actually would be a lot less nervous about Ahmed. He looks like a very nice kid. But seriously, I want to know if that affected how you guys view the situation. Now, once the cops are called and they see that device, the part where they have to handcuff him for his safety.

0:10:55 Thomas: Does that? I looked that up and it doesn't look like that's a requirement. I mean, maybe they will say that that's their police procedure for their particular office or whatever, or jurisdiction, but that really, I mean a 14 year old kid handcuffing him for his safety, he said, and then for the officer's safety. How does it protect him? I don't get that part. I'm not, I'm still not sure on that logic. Like, well, we're handcuff you, but it's for your protection. Well, in case of what? In case I I punch myself or something? What is, how is this protecting me? Is it in case I'm going to fight you and then you're going to shoot me? Isn't that how it protects me? Either way, it's a bit of a stretch. So I think that's BS. I think they didn't say that he was being rowdy or fighting back.

0:11:43 Thomas: I mean, it'd be one thing if they wanted to say that or if that happened. It doesn't seem like anyone's saying that. No one's saying, well, he tried to fight us. He tried to run. Like, okay, okay, I could see a case being made if he, I don't know, but if he tried to run or something, but it doesn't seem like that happened at all. No one's saying that happened. So the fact that you have a, just a, this, this innocent looking kid, um, and he's, he's skinny, couldn't weigh, probably doesn't even weigh a hundred pounds. Uh, the fact that you have to handcuff him, definitely overdoing it. Uh. I think that was definitely a mistake there and, and not very reasonable. But I think the thing that I find so odd, there's a weird juxtaposition happening here, and let me know if I'm crazy. But isn't it odd to simultaneously see tweet after tweet, now I understand the people I follow are going to skew way liberal, I follow a lot of people, but on the whole, they're probably going to see liberal.

0:12:40 Thomas: I probably follow a few conservatives, but I have not heard anyone supporting this arrest. I have not seen the tweet. What I've just said, even the fact that I'm listening to the police statement, that's probably the most support of the police I've even heard. I've not seen anyone. Now, correct me if I'm wrong. Send me any links that you find where anyone besides, I don't know, just Joe Citizen or anybody with a blog, anybody with A Voice, anybody who has a following. Find me someone who's supporting the arrest, because here's the strange juxtaposition I see. I see tweet after tweet of, I can't, this is absurd.

0:13:28 Thomas: This is outrageous. This is outrageous, this outrageous. We're so racist. We are so racist." I see the president of our country invite the kid to the White House, Ahmed. I see what could be the next president. I see Hillary Clinton tweet in support. I see NASA tweet in support. I see all kinds of the biggest companies in the country, the biggest tech companies, schools, everybody. I see an outpouring of support just for what's really a very minor thing in the big picture. I mean, on the scheme of it, we don't care every time a kid gets arrested at a school and then is let off with no charges.

0:14:15 Thomas: I mean, that's not news. However, I understand these are special circumstances. But still, what I think is so interesting is the huge disproportionate reaction of support and then simultaneously talking about how backward everybody in the country is and how racist everybody in the country is. It's really weird. And some people tweeting like, well, you just might not, might as well not even try if you're a Muslim kid. You're not allowed to be curious. Well, I don't know. I mean, I would think if you are trying to gauge being a Muslim kid in the U.S., here we have one very bad example of treatment. Granted, very bad. Bad example. Kid brings a clock to school, gets arrested. That's bad.

0:15:00 Thomas: Okay. Mark that in the bad category. I'm sure we could find other bad examples. I'm, I'm sure we could. But we have to also factor in the president of the United States, the leader of the country, with a ton of support. I didn't find anyone, again, I don't find everyone who is supporting the arrest. I mean, everyone is just like, oh, Obama just did the best tweeting ever by inviting this kid. So, essentially, everyone, every sane person in the country tweeting support, maybe that should count for something is all I'm saying. I just find it, does anyone else find it odd that there's simultaneously beating ourselves up over the treatment of this kid while also just witnessing this vast outpouring of support?

0:15:51 Thomas: Maybe it's just overcompensation or maybe it's not overcompensation. Maybe it's the appropriate amount of compensation. That could certainly be true. And don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that Obama shouldn't have tweeted or anything. I think it's great what they did. I think that what they said is fantastic. I think I'm really I think it's really cool that this this this Ahmed fellow will get to go visit the White House. And I also he seems really smart. Like, I think he's he's in for his great things ahead of him. I'm not at all saying that any of these tweets of support were wrong at all. I'm saying I think maybe the ones tweeting very negatively about the entire country and the treatment of Muslims in the country, maybe those are a little overblown.

0:16:40 Thomas: Maybe. Am I crazy? I mean, is there any other persecuted minority? Let's say Christians are a very persecuted minority in a lot of countries. Countries, is there any case where one is briefly detained and then the leader of that country is fully supporting that minority group, whatever it is? I mean, really, I don't want to get carried away in saying the U.S. is perfect. We certainly aren't. But can we give ourselves a tiny bit of credit? That's my thesis here. That's My Thesis Statement. Can we give ourselves the slightest amount of credit for the fact that just 100% of the coverage was positive that I saw? I mean, every news article, every blog, it's all positive.

0:17:28 Thomas: So look, there's going to be assholes. There will always be assholes. It's important to know how many assholes there are. We need an asshole count. We need to know how many people are going to perhaps overreact, which, again, look at the picture of the clock and honestly ask yourself what you would think if a kid brought that to a school. And maybe you'll honestly answer yourself and say, I would know that's a clock. That's fine. Here's what I would do. If I were the teacher, I would say, what is this? Can you please explain everything about this? Now, the police say that Ahmed didn't say what it was. I mean, that he just said it's a clock.

0:18:15 Thomas: Um, I don't know how much, that could have been the fault of the teacher, really could have. I want to emphasize that. I'm not saying Ahmed did anything wrong. I don't know. That could have entirely been the teacher not allowing him to answer, the teacher could have been. We don't have that information. We don't have access to that. But I will just say that if it were me, I believe, I would have been very suspicious if it was any kid. I would be wondering, well, I'd like to think I'd be suspicious if it were any kid, who knows? Maybe there is some level of racism that we can't get away from or that I can't get away for. I don't, certainly some people believe that humans are just so racist by nature that it would be impossible to be completely unbiased as regards race.

0:19:00 Thomas: Maybe that's true. That's depressing. I hope it's not true. And I will mention a third time, if anything, I think what I would be looking for just based on the past experience of who has gone and done violence at schools. I would be looking for, to be honest, loser white males. That's who I would be looking for. Unpopular white. Does that not cover just about every single school shooting? I mean, it seems like. So again, I would like to think that's where my kind of profiling sense would be if I would indeed wanted to profile. But look at the picture. Look at the one in that video that I think is the official one that the police are releasing. I think it's, there was another picture that I don't think ended up being accurate. Look at that one.

0:19:46 Thomas: Tell me that you wouldn't be a little alarmed, a little alarmed. But I will say that I think, I believe, maybe I have a high opinion of myself. I believe I would have been able to converse with Ahmed in a way that would have led to an okay solution. Also, it sounds, I think Ahmed said his other teacher, this wasn't the teacher that he built it for. His other teacher knew about it and would know. Know, I would have called that teacher over and said, hey, do you know anything about this? What's going on? I don't know why that didn't happen. I don't know why all that didn't happen. So, uh, again, as usual, Thomas way, I think I found the flaws in it and everyone's thinking maybe in this, I don't know, maybe I haven't feel free to let me know your opinions. I'm going to move on to another topic, but that's what I think about that. I want to say, I think Ahmed's a great kid.

0:20:32 Thomas: Uh, I'm really excited for his future and I'm, I'm very sad that he was arrested for for his curiosity, but I do think there are a few nuances to consider.

0:21:03 Thomas: Well, and speaking of nuance, time to talk about Sam Harris. Now, I think you guys know that I'm a pretty decently big fan of Sam Harris, I enjoy reading his writing and I enjoy especially his debates. I think he's a very calm debater. He doesn't seem to be doing too much of that anymore. But what I'm not is a diehard right or wrong, or their way right or wrong supporter of anybody. I'm not a dogmatic supporter of anyone. I think I've pointed out a lot of things that I don't like about, say, Richard Dawkins or, well, not so much Hitchens. I'm pretty into deifying Hitchens now.

0:21:48 Thomas: Well, I do think that Hitchens was very rude sometimes and didn't always debate in what would be the most productive way. It certainly was probably, unarguably, the most entertaining way, but maybe not the most productive way. Anyway, I digress. I want to say that there are some things that Sam Harris has said recently that I don't agree with, and specifically to do with profiling. I don't think that his view on profiling is particularly interesting. His view essentially boils down to, he claims that he doesn't want there to be racial profiling per se at the airport, but in airport security, we should rule out, obviously, not targets.

0:22:40 Thomas: So I guess reverse profiling, which I think still ends up being profiling. He thinks that we ought to rule out Jerry Seinfeld or Betty White or anyone who looks like Betty White. Now, importantly, he didn't say anyone who looks like Jerry Seisfeld, and that was a distortion by people who don't like Sam. And that often happens. I think we need to ask what's going on with Sam Harris, because I think it's a little easy. It certainly would be be easy for me. And I think it's, it's easy for a lot of people to say, Sam Harris is just a guy who is giving great opinions. And then someone is turning around and distorting them, uh, all the time, because that's the battle he has. If you follow him at all, the pattern is he says something or actually he says nothing years ago.

0:23:30 Thomas: Uh, people allegedly misquote it and they, they essentially paint him as a racist, as a bigot, as an idiot, as, yeah, a lot of things. Now, I think for the most part, that is kind of what's happening. Now I think, I Think what has happened is some statement early on that he made was either misinterpreted or perhaps read uncharitably. And that has changed how certain people perceive him, Sam Harris. I said ham, ham, Ham Saris, Ham Sandwich, Sam Harris, specifically, you know, Reza Aslan and, and, uh, and Glenn Greenwald and et cetera. So something has soured Sam in their image very early on a long time ago.

0:24:16 Thomas: And as a result, they're, they, they really don't give him any charity in reading. And I think that has a snowball effect because once someone gives you no charity in their reading, it's pretty easy to find flaws in anything. I mean, just look at Republicans and Democrats every day. Every day, roughly 50% of the country can take something one person says, make it out to be amazing, and then take something someone on the opposite side says, make it up to be idiotic. This is every day, this can happen. Now, granted, I think it is a little little too easy. Going back to what I was saying a second ago, it's a little too easy to stop there and say, well, that's what's happening to Sam Harris.

0:25:02 Thomas: Maybe there's something he said. He has at some point not made himself clear or said some things that possibly were a little bit too easy to make into racist statements. In some cases that's not true. Certain quotes it's not true. But the profiling, I think, is one where it may be a little little bit on him to have either not held this opinion or made it known differently or explained it differently. Because I'll be honest, I just don't find it that compelling. And as much as I dislike PZ Myers, I think that he essentially was right. I'm pretty sure he misquoted Sam initially and then doubled down. Well, maybe I misquoted him, but even what he meant makes no no sense.

0:25:49 Thomas: But given all that, those are all warnings in my head that someone's going to be full of shit when someone misquotes and then corrects that, but still stays with their message. Usually that means they're going to be full shit. However, um, and, and I think this is what I try to do. I try to stick with people. I will read anyone. I don't like PZ Myers. I think the thing he said about Robin Williams, that really soured his image in my mind, but I read what he wrote wrote about Sam Harris recently and about the profiling. And oh, by the way, this was having to do with an interview Sam Harris did with someone named Dave Rubin, I believe, where Dave Rubin wanted, he seemed like a big Sam Harris fan and wanted to help him kind of explain all these things, explain these mischaracterizations.

0:26:38 Thomas: And a lot of them were mischaracterizations, and Reza Aslan pointed out one that was idiotic, that he was still misinterpreting him, gladly. Uh, so that definitely happens. But when it comes to this racial profiling thing, I think PZ might be right that Sam Harris's opinion is either a little bit racist or not meaningful. I mean, it just, when you, when you try to look at what practically you would do, and PZ does this, he says, what are you going to do? Are you gonna have a list of celebrities who are famous enough to where the airport security doesn't have to pay attention to them? Are they they going to be of all celebrities of all races? Are they going to be, you know, like practically, I don't think, I think Sam is making a fair observation that resources are wasted on people who we ought not to be paying attention to at airports.

0:27:32 Thomas: Elderly women in wheelchairs. There are people that we are likely wasting resources on. However, I think what Sam is possibly wrong about, I'm not a security expert, of course, but it seems that he might be wrong in that I don't know that there's a real practical alternative. I don'T know that we can keep a list of celebrities that we can ignore, that we set the parameters in a way that'll make it not racist when we ignore certain people. I think we kind of have to live with it. Maybe there are other ways. Now, I know, but Sam Harris did a long time ago have a debate with a security expert about about profiling, and that's the thing I like about Sam Harris. Now, this is where I think this is why I still am a fan of Sam Harris, and I'm not so much a fan or Glenn Greenwald, because what Sam does when he disagrees with someone is he wants to talk to them about it, and he wants to let each person have their opinion known.

0:28:29 Thomas: He invited a security expert who disagreed with him, still disagreed of them. It's not like he convinced him, and He published a debate on his blog. That's what I like. Now, Sam might be wrong, but I don't, it's not the kind of wrong that I think is dangerous. It's not a dogmatic wrong where you're going to silence your opponents. It's a wrong where he's willing to talk about it. That's what I like about him. When I say I like Sam Harris, when I say, I'm a fan of Sam Harris. That does not mean I am, I agree a hundred percent with every single thing he says. I like people who conduct themselves in a academically, or maybe, maybe that's not the right word, in an intellectually vigorous manner. In an intellectually honest manner. That's what I like. That is why I don't like C.J.

0:29:14 Thomas: Wurliman. That is what I don't think I can interact with him. That was actually something I was going to talk to you guys about. Well, I may get into this more later. I don't think I'm going to have the time. It's a completely different subject. Yeah, let me get into that later. We'll see. Let me me finish the Sam Harris thing. I always have so much I want to say. Um, yeah, that's why I like Sam Harris. Now, now we go to this, uh, dialogue with Maajid Nawaz. I don't know that Sam is saying everything perfectly in this. I think it's an interesting effort. I Think that he is trying to, he has said, Sam has claimed that his dialogue with Maajid Nawaz changed his mind more than it did Maajid's mind. And, and I, that is all commendable.

0:29:59 Thomas: I, I think he's doing a good job. I do not think he's solving the world's problems necessarily. I don't think he's solving the problem of Islam or Islamism or Islamic fundamentalism, whatever you want to say. But I don't think that, I think the counter-reaction to his efforts are very misplaced. And Maajid here, I'm going to play a clip in which Maajid says very eloquently, and just, honestly, this seems like an open and shut case to me, if there ever was one. Maajid talks about the opposition they have faced. Let me play that for you right here.

0:30:37 Clip: So, on the same question, but I want to touch on something Sam said earlier about this notion that any Muslim engaging in dialogue with a critic of Islam, with an atheist, with somebody like Sam or Ayaan, is necessarily either a sellout, an Uncle Tom, a native informant, or any of the above. Yesterday, by a non-Muslim, left-wing, white, and particularly silver-spooned critic. I was called an Islamophobe. I want to address this head on before we proceed, if I may, because I think it's disgusting to delegitimize my voice in that way. And what I would like to say to them, and I hope they're listening, is the day that you have had to dodge neo-Nazi hammer attacks on the streets of Essex, as I have, The day that you've been arrested at gunpoint and profiled by police at the age of 15, as I have, the day that you've forcibly had your DNA taken from you and profiled at airports as I have, and the day that you face the grip of a torturer in Egypt's dungeons because of your Islamist political views, as I have, is the day you get to talk to me about Islamophobia.

0:31:51 Clip: The day you were born to Muslim parents, are a Muslim yourself, and have a Muslim child is the day you got to talk about anti-Muslim bigotry. Until that day, being a non-Muslim, and particularly being a white male, to speak to me and to police my conversation about my own religion and its future in this world, and to choose for me who I'm allowed to speak to, is a form of colonial patronage that I could do without. It's a reverse form of racism, it's a policing of the conversation, it's born of a racism of low expectations, because it assumes, it's the true good Muslim, bad Muslim game, by the way, because it assumes the only good Muslim is the angry Muslim, and there happens to be a bit of a brain malfunction in the heads of these people who assume that despite the fact I've been through all of that, I'm not sitting here in front of you ranting and raving and spitting and frothing at the mouth. Therefore, because I'm not angry, somehow I'm the good Muslim.

0:32:52 Clip: It's patronizing in the extreme, and in particular, as I said, the two people who who have named, Sam's I think mentioned one of them, the two people who have called me a native informant or an Uncle Tom or an Islamophobe, both happen to be non-Muslim, white, middle-class American males who haven't seen any of what I've just described. And I think they need to just stop and check their privilege, first of all.

0:33:15 Thomas: Well, if I were to split hairs, I'd say that I'm, I'm not a huge fan of the phrase, check your privilege, but I mean, if there ever is an appropriate use, maybe it's that, but maybe not. I, again, I, I. Not a huge fan of it. Um, I would maybe say you're just wrong. I would say to those, uh, you know, people who are calling Maajid a native informant and all that, you're just doing it wrong. That's it. I don't know if privilege factors in, I don't know what checking privilege does. Because I have probably all the same privileges. I haven't checked any of them, but I believe that Maajid is right. So do I need to check my privilege? Anyway, sorry, I'm getting off on a tangent, a privilege tangent. I don't want to go down that rabbit hole.

0:34:00 Thomas: But I will say that that was so well said by Maajid. Sorry, that was kind of a long clip. But I didn't know where to stop it because it was just so good.

0:34:10 Thomas: That's what I can't stand. Do you ever hear Sam or Maajid or anyone go after the, I mean, it's not exactly a personal attack, but it's sort of, does he go to Reza Aslan and say, well, Reza is just, he's just this kind of person, and that's why what he's saying? No, he goes after what Reza's saying. He says, here's what Rezo's saying. Reza saying that all religion is the equal, it's completely equal, here's then, this is, and Reza would agree, he explains Reza's point of view.

And maybe Maajid does this, I don't know, I don't know as much about how Maajid feels, except for that clip that I played, I've seen other clips with him, but, but anyway, as regards arguing against other people, Sam does not say, well, uh, you know, you're this kind of person, that's why you feel that way. He says, well, here's what you think, Reza, and he summarizes it in a way that Reza, that would probably agree with, which is critical. That's Rappaport's rules. According to Dan Dennett, it's a very high bar. I think that we all fail it a lot. But I think Sam is pretty good at it, pretty decently good.

If you can summarize your opponent's views in a way that they themselves say, yeah, that's a great way of putting it, that is the best way to argue. If you could rephrase what they are saying, and when you think about it, that should be the only way to argument. But it really isn't. That is, that is not done in this day and age. It really isn't. It's, it's what is done. And maybe that's why I'm such a Sam Harris fan.

0:35:46 Thomas: I think he does a decent job at it. What people do is instead just find strawman arguments or, you know, mischaracterizations, easy rhetorical points, blah blah blah, it's so boring to me. And it really, when you think about it logically, it makes no sense. It shouldn't be how we argue. It's like people's jobs are to just say things, misrepresent the other person, and then the other person says something kind of misrepresents them. What is even happening? What is being accomplished by that. Nothing.

I mean, it's crazy, and nobody's perfect. Again, I'm not getting into hero worship of Sam Harris. I think he's wrong sometimes, and I've pointed out a few times, but I would guess that you would be hard-pressed to find any, I'll say, but even if maybe you can find one or two, but the ratio of times you could find Sam Harris simply strawmanning or or misrepresenting other people, are going to be tiny compared to his critics, by and large. And that's what matters to me. I don't know what matters to you guys. That matters to me because that's at least a thinker who I can value, who I can look at what they're saying, judge it on its merits, and reliably think, okay, Sam is giving me an honest appraisal of what he thinks and what he thinks other people think. That's so much we could do.

Maybe he's not wrong or sorry, maybe he's no right 100% of the time, but I find value in that and that's what I wanted to say. There's, of course, a million more things I wanted say. I wanted get to some of your comments, but honestly, since all the comments are on other stuff, it wouldn't really apply so maybe I'll save comments for another day.

0:37:32 Thomas: Man, I really could do a million shows a week. I think two is already more than most other podcasts, I think, so we'll stick to two. Oh, I had a listener send an email in asking, now I really enjoyed the panel. I've gotten a lot of positive feedback. If you didn't enjoy it, I apologize, but I haven't heard from you. So I'm going to go ahead and assume that everyone enjoyed it. But whatever. I promise I'm I'm going to try not to do three-parters. I don't like doing three-parters. It's too much of one thing on my show. But I really just didn't know how else to do it last time because that recording was so fun. I say that because I want to say that I want a call for another panel.

0:38:17 Thomas: I think this would be good. Now, it's not going to be right now. I just had a panel. I don'T need to record right away. But I think I want put out a call, and this is a good episode to do because it's been just me talking, for a panel of people, if there's anyone out there, I'm going to put out a call, maybe it'll take a while to collect the right panel, and that's why I'm doing it early. Is there anyone out THERE who is in a relationship, marriage preferably, I suppose, because it's just has the most consequences, but maybe not necessarily marriage, a very committed relationship where your atheism is a point of contention and possibly even secret. I got this idea, sort of, from listener Keith, so thanks Keith for your emails, I appreciate them, and an email made me think of this.

0:39:07 Thomas: I think it would be really interesting, is there anyone out there, any listeners who are, like I said, in a marriage relationship where your partner doesn't know you're an atheist, possibly, or knows and it's a great point of contention, I think that would be an interesting topic to broach. Which maybe you're worried about them finding out or how How to tell them. Anything like that. So if that's you and you'd like to come on the show, have a great time talking with others who, well, it also provides a bit of support. Talk with others in your situation and all that. Email atheisticallyspeaking at gmail.com, please. So like I said, this will be a while off. I'm not going to do this right away, but I'm going to start calling for it because I think that's an interesting topic. I like it.

0:39:53 Thomas: Also, I announced last episode, I believe, the the first ever, Atheistically Speaking, debate, live debate. I can't wait. It's going to be September 26th. I'm announcing it again in case you didn't hear it the first time. September 26, 12 p.m. PST. Save the date because it's a live event. So I really want you to come on and view it and ask questions. Very important to get a lot of questions from you guys so that it doesn't look look like a total failure, and then I can do it again when it's a success, and I can get other people to come debate on the show. So very important, the link will be in the show notes. Thank you guys so much for everything. Uh, oh, I better thank my patrons. No new patrons to thank this week, but that's okay.

0:40:38 Thomas: Maybe next week someone will want to jump on patreon.com/atheist and support what I'm doing here if you like what you hear. Thank you so much for considering, but, that doesn't mean I don't have a plenty of people to thank. I would like to thank Zemu Zinu Jr., Adrian Borschoff, Michael, Jonathan Moyet, Jay Aldenwalt, Bangs Naughty Bits, Peter Skelton, Brian Garefort, Dale, Matt Garrett, Samantha, and And that's it. Oh, thank you guys so much for your support. It's much appreciated. You are the absolute best. I mean it. I really do. And anything I can do for you, be sure to patron message me or comment or anything at all on the Patreon and I can talk to you. I can interact with you there. So thank you, guys.

0:41:24 Thomas: And more bonus content with Jake coming up, of course, every week, hopefully, now that I've settled my house moving stuff, stuff, so that'll be a benefit to patrons as well. So thank you for listening, and I appreciate your comments and feedback if you would like to give it on this opinionated show, and I will see you guys next week.