AS170: Parenting as an Atheist: Sex and Porn Part 2

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:30 Thomas: Hello and welcome to Atheistically Speaking. This is episode 170 and I'm your host Thomas Smith and today we are going to get back to our parent panel for part two. Even more goodness and TMI and interesting questions about parenting. Really cool stuff. So let's get right back into that.

0:01:03 Thomas: I was, see, I was in a weird kind of position with my parents because I I had very strict parents who, who were, who wanted to control, I wouldn't say they want, it's hard to put the exact word. There were certain things that they wanted full control over, but they weren't like very micromanaging in every aspect of my life or anything, because I think that would have been very bad, but они не хотели, чтобы я делал что-то вроде пьет, или даже просто just driving with friends because they had heard and seen, actually, my mom is a teacher and she had seen, excuse me, she had seen I think two of her students died in a car accident. And I think from that, that made her very sensitive to like any sort of, you know, high school, typical stereotypical, like, oh, high School party, fun kind of stuff.

0:01:56 Thomas: So my parents were very controlling about that, but my parents are also a little bit older than your average parent. So by the time I I was in the critical age of when, right about when I was, you know, the age that would have wanted to get into porn, that was right about when Internet porn was happening. So, and them being them, them being older, like, they didn't really have a good grasp on that. And don't, I didn't, there wasn't the kind of access, I mean, just the unbelievable porn access that there is just worse every single day. I mean, or maybe worse isn't the right word. Maybe some people are really happy about it, but it's certainly more prevalent every day. Back then, it was certainly not that.

0:02:41 Thomas: But I don't know how much that factored into how I feel about it. You know, like that's the thing I think maybe Allison is scared about in particular, but who knows, as maybe we all would be, I certainly plan on having kids soon. And I would be a little bit scared about unlimited access at any time, at any age, you know, that, that would make me scared. But if someone could assure me somehow that just as a thought experiment, okay, your kid will never be addicted to it. They'll be able to look at it from time to time, but they will never be addicted to It. I would almost say, okay, go ahead. I don't even want to know about it. That's fine, whatever they want, you know, but, but I think the worry that they're going to, you know, trip into some sort of weird addiction, I think that's what would hold me up a little bit. Do you, do you guys worry about that at all?

0:03:29 Panel: Well, I watched a, an intelligence square debate on YouTube. Um, and one of the British ones where they talked about is pornography good. Um. And there were two pornographers, one former pornographer who was against it and one one who was I think still in the business or currently somehow tied to the business and had been um both of those were females and then there was another male pro and con on the panel um they had a really good discussion about um all of these things about you know the possible harm the um unequal um status of women in porn um and the stigma of being in pornography or of consuming pornography or the potential to become addicted um I know that, you know, my history is biased towards Mormonism because that's what I'm I'm growing out of.

0:04:16 Panel: And, you know, that I see all of these idiot women and men on Facebook posting all these links to is your spouse addicted to porn? And they And I'm not exaggerating, they think that any single viewing of porn is like the 1980s Reagan war on drugs sort of crack once and you're addicted kind of bullshit and it's just not true. Um, I don't know that there is something like addicted to pornness out there, of course anyone can have unhealthy behaviors in any aspect of their life. You know, my thing is the more open that a person can be with the support group that they have, the less potential there is for any sort of unhealthy development or for something like that to persist if it does develop.

0:04:38 Thomas: Yeah, I think, you know, and sorry, sorry to interrupt again, but I'll, I'll get back to Elsa and Angie, but before I forget, Gerald, I wanted to mention that I really liked what you said when you talked about sort of shaping your child's character one way or the other, hopefully by example, and maybe a certain amount by teaching, but, and then trusting that that is going to pervade kind of every aspect of their life. I think, hopefully I'm not putting words in your mouth, but I really liked that part because when I think about it, I suppose what can really stop addiction of that kind, if, if you know, whether or not exists, I think it does exist. I certainly know people who have been, had a very unhealthy relationship with, with online. I don't know if you want to get technical. I don't know if addiction, you know, what, what, how it breaks out.

0:05:55 Thomas: But I will say that building what, just trying, doing your best to raise your child with good character and goals and life and, and you know, healthy outlook on stuff like that. Maybe that's enough to where if they have those things, then they're not going to want to spend just an inordinate amount of time with this stuff. So I really liked what you said there, Gerald. I just wanted to mention that.

0:06:20 Panel: Yeah, I don't think you mischaracterized what I said, so Yeah, okay, good.

0:06:22 Thomas: Okay, good.

0:06:23 Panel: Well that's the new, uh, you Christian culture thing is I'm addicted to porn, and I think the reason that they are so into that is that relieves them of any responsibility. Yeah.

0:06:37 Thomas: Yeah, good point.

0:06:38 Panel: Yeah. Like Josh. Duggar. Or Whatever. Yeah, as soon as I saw Addicted to Porn, I was like, that's part of the script now. And then they don't have to take responsibility.

0:06:39 Thomas: Like Josh Duggar or whatever.

0:06:49 Panel: Well,

0:06:49 Thomas: Well, I think we really can differentiate between cartoon-esque, addicted to porn, like the character. But I think it's very real in some people's minds, especially Christians and Mormons, like you say. I think there is a cartoon-esque version of that where you look at it once and there's so much shame there. But there could be a very real version where, like I said, I'm not going to mention any names of any kind. But I did know someone who was up very late, like most nights working, you know, when he had to get up for work the next morning, kind of almost addicted to these webcams. And that borders on, okay, that's a problem in your life, you know, When you're staying up till two or three in the morning every night, just sort of unable to peel yourself away.

0:07:39 Thomas: That's a form of addiction that I think is worth considering, whereas the cartoon character Christian, like you say, I think that was a very good comment that, like, Josh Duggar and the like, they can just say, ah, it was an addiction. I just need some treatment. And then that kind of takes the responsibility off of them. But when in reality, I honestly don't think they should have that kind of guilt in the first place for it. So it's kind of a weird situation.

0:08:05 Panel: Yeah, we're certainly trying to avoid shame and guilt, you know, regarding sexuality, but I mean every household is going to have different rules and different limits for their children. Um, I think that we can contrast just right away the idea that I know that most of the people that I grew up with, they feel that consuming porn is literally infidelity. I know of marriages that have dissolved from the first moment that someone discovered browsing history that wasn't wiped. You know, the marriage was over at that point. There was no salvaging it because infidelity had taken place. I'm the husband just just a very I mean maybe not probably every case yeah yeah I've

0:08:41 Thomas: I'm going to take a very risky guess and say that that the wife discovered the husband, just, just a very, I mean, maybe not. I've And this is the thing, I think I started to tell the story and I, I want to try to have someone else talk, but there's too much silence. I'm gonna have to try and talk again.

0:09:03 Thomas: My, my mom did catch me one time, but you know, it's so embarrassing to think about now, but back in the day of, of, uh, you know, when computers could barely handle the porn that you're trying to pull up, the computer froze and I couldn't get it off the screen. And it was bad. And no, it was all loaded.

0:09:21 Panel: With the pixels loading line by line. No, it was all loaded.

0:09:26 Thomas: That wasn't the issue.

0:09:26 Panel: That wasn't the issue.

0:09:27 Thomas: It could not be unloaded fast enough.

0:09:27 Panel: It could not be unloaded fast enough. That

0:09:29 Thomas: That was is the problem. Um, the web page that is uh not me um uh but but it is. I just the the difference in reaction just

0:09:30 Panel: Was the problem. The web page, that is. Not me. Oh, shit. Nice. Uh but but it is I again, as a male, between and I'm I know I'm only one person, but I I do think there is a big gender

0:09:53 Thomas: Gender gap in this, even if it's of course not every single person of each sex, but but I do think there's a big difference when a mom catches a son looking at porn than when a dad does in general. And who knows if it has something to do with the ways that we treat, you know, our sons and daughters differently with sex. I don't know, maybe women, because as I think all of you have alluded to in one way or the other, the way you were taught about sex as a woman or as a girl, as a young girl might be a lot different and more restrictive than you are as a guy. Um, and maybe that somehow colors it. And I, I don't know one way or the other. I just know that it was, it was a big reaction on my mom's part. And I don't think my dad even addressed it. It was not even, it Was like, okay, she'll handle that.

0:10:40 Panel: Addressed it. It was like, okay, she' ll handle that, I

0:10:44 Thomas: I think was probably his, His point of view. I don't think he wanted to get too involved. And, and I don't know, maybe that's, hopefully that will trend differently now that I think society on the whole is just becoming so much more aware in general of these things. But definitely not in every community. I mean, especially among religious communities. I just think, I worry, is there a big chasm between the reaction of what a mother is going to think versus what a father is going to think? I don't know. Maybe Angie can speak to this.

0:10:44 Panel: Think, was probably his point Well, I mean. I was kind of thinking as you were talking, like, I think too, part of it is I think I would like, if I had a daughter, I obviously don't, um, but you know, I think I would probably react a little differently just instinctively to catching a daughter watching porn versus catching a son. And I think some of it is just because we are the opposite gender. I think, like, just being a woman and having a, you know, a male child, there's just some weird, like, evolution, like, even though they're your child and, you know, biologically there's no know, like, attraction, I do think that males and females are sort of built in that, even from people who you're not, like, there's no attraction to, like, you still treat them differently because you do recognize that that is, I, I don't know if I'm making sense, but like, you know, you do, like.

0:12:11 Panel: Like, for example, you know, for women, like, if you receive a compliment, you know, you could be wearing a particular shirt that looks very lovely on you. And you can have five women tell you that, oh, your shot, your top is cute. You got one guy tell you, you look nice today. And it means way more than the five women do it. You know, it's just, and it's not even, it could be your father, you know, or it could be your, or it could be your child or something. And it's not about like, oh, I view them as a potential sex. It's just something about opposite genders. I think there's something like built in to the brain that like we are built to like recognize gender differently and and categorize, I think the human brain just divides everything into, we're just, it's built to categorize and.

0:12:55 Thomas: Yeah.

0:12:55 Panel: Yeah, so I think like I just think, I, that's part of like the reactive, you know, just an instinctual different reaction that you would have to catching a child of an an opposite gender involved in something sexual versus a child of the same gender. And, you know, at the same, I think too, part of it is like, I'm not a boy. Like I don't have boy parts, you know what I'm saying? I mean, obviously I understand how they work, but like, you know, I like, I don't know what it's like to explore a male body, you know, like at that age. And so the conversation that I would have about like, like, you know, it's okay. And like things like that would be so different from a female where, you know, I could kind of, because I remember going through the same experiences and, you know, I understand like what their body is doing from a personal perspective.

0:13:49 Panel: And so I think that's for me, I like, that's kind of one of the challenges that I'm, you haven't experienced yet, but I'm sort of like in my brain tooling over. Cause I know it's coming, like how we're We're going to address some of this stuff.

0:14:01 Thomas: Well, by that logic, do you guys think that, is there any merit to saying, okay, if the the talk needs to be had with the son, maybe have the father do it. Just in general, as a rule, is that something you consider as parents? Like, I don't know if you're a father and your daughter, I know all of you have sons, but if you have a daughter that was doing something like that, would you think, hey, honey, maybe you as the mother, maybe you should talk to her because you know what's going on more and you could relate more. Is that that something that in general you guys like to do as parents or, or is that, I mean, it sounds like that might've happened with Gerald. I don't know. Were you delegated that role for that reason, Gerald?

0:14:47 Panel: Oh, well, that was my wife's reason, um, and. So I. Can't, I can. Speak. For.

0:14:50 Thomas: Right. Yeah. That's what I'm saying.

0:14:51 Panel: Her or for anyone else, but, but it definitely seemed to me as though it was just something that she didn't even feel like she should, unless she were a single parent, which she's not, um, you know, but there's... there's just an inability, and I'm guessing because I don't have a daughter, and I think that the other panelists can guess the other direction too, I, there's just an inability to, um, empathize it with the other gender going through puberty where you, you have gone through it with your own gendered child, and therefore it's going to be intuitive, even if their experience is vastly different from yours. Centuries of difference between your experience. And theirs. How old are you? Thirty.

0:15:28 Thomas: How old are you? No, I'm just kidding. Centuries.

0:15:32 Panel: Centuries. I mean, there was no Internet, so it's a whole new world.

0:15:33 Thomas: Wow. That's true.

0:15:35 Panel: That's true. True. But, you know, I just want one of the things that I am imagining in my mind, if I were to have had a daughter instead of a son, what would I think my impression would be? And this is just a guess, but I think that I would feel like rather than try and protect my son from porn, I would probably want to try and protect my daughter from changing her impression of what is expected of her in sexual acts. And I think that that probably is misinformed from my own current morality because of my history, you know, because I don't feel that in a true, truly healthy relationship that males and females in sexual acts are unequal because it's it's a partnership.

0:15:36 Thomas: I

0:16:25 Panel: Partnership, um, and so I don't necessarily think that it's the man's job to, you know, avert his eyes, and it's a woman's job too, you know, overt cleavage so that she doesn't tempt him into, you know, you know, violating her because it's her fault. But I think that I have, would have that impotence anyways to try and protect her from allowing herself to become victimized like the women on the screen, even though I don't feel that about the women on the screen.

I think I'd still feel that that about my daughter, but that's just a guess. What does, what does anyone else think? Funny, because I think I would freak out less if I caught a daughter, or if I found out a daughter, maybe you're exactly right, maybe, because I would feel like I would kind of more know what she was thinking. Maybe, you know, I kind of think about it too from my child's perspective. Of course, you have to understand my particular child, he's very neurotic and everything, is you know, like a, he, I mean, he gets embarrassed very easily.

And so I think about it from, I mean, you guys think about it like, if the parent of the opposite gender tried to have the talk with you, wouldn't you be way more horrified than a parent of this saint? Like, I'm imagining my father trying to have this sex talk with me, and I'm like, dear Jesus, no. So, I mean, I think, you know, if I tried to have the sex talk with my son, like you said, unless you were a single parent and you had to because there was no one else, like, I think my son would rather hear it from his father than from me. Well, that's just the impression that I get. We gave my son the choice. He had, well, he, yeah, because we talked to him already. Well,

0:17:59 Panel: Yeah, and I would have talked to my younger son, but he opted out. You can opt out, and for the moment, or you can, um, have me talk to you, or just your dad, or both of us together.

0:18:10 Thomas: Like that experiment. So how did that go?

0:18:12 Panel: Well, my older son, uh, he opted straight in because he likes to be in the know. He, he doesn't want to be ignorant. He wants to know everything. Even, I said, you cannot know, or you can know and be embarrassed.

0:18:24 Thomas: Just to clarify, was this for the sex talk in general or how

0:18:28 Panel: Talk in general? This was for, yeah, the sex Talk. Like, what is sex? What does it entail? How

0:18:32 Thomas: Did you decide when you presented this, uh, Sophie's choice?

0:18:36 Panel: Selfish choice? That's actually interesting.

0:18:37 Thomas: And

0:18:37 Panel: Because we decided to go ahead and tell him before he went into a public middle school, because I figured he would just find out anyway at school. School, uh, they have, uh, sex ed at the beginning of seventh grade, and the middle school starts in sixth. So we gave them the option right before school started in sixth grade. And I said, I can tell you everything and you can be embarrassed, or you can not know and just find out later. I mean, we can tell you later, not, you can find out on your own, but, or you kan find out and be embarrassed and have the knowledge. And he said, well, I want to know. So I said, you want me, your dad, or both of us together? We let him choose.

0:19:15 Thomas: He and what, what he chose was, yeah, he being political

0:19:17 Panel: Of us together. Well, let me just share with you a guess, was he being political yeah Yeah, um, no, I'll bet you a hundred dollars he already knew how, sex is, we're born. I'm just saying, I was, he told me no, and I was surprised, but honestly, I, I would have said no too. I would've said no at 12. Yeah. And I would know at 15 to my parents if they would have believed me.

0:19:23 Thomas: Yeah

0:19:47 Panel: Yeah. But to be honest, I mean, they do. We're way out here in the suburbs. They do live a pretty sheltered life. Now, if he was lying to me, that's fine. You know, and that's totally fine if he wants to. And I don't care either way. I was actually surprised. He said he acted surprised. He acted like he didn't know when we told him. Hmm. If he didn't know, he was a pretty good actor.

Now, I'm sure he had most of it figured out, but a couple of times, you know, we, we did the puberty stuff in fourth and fifth grade, and they don't make the boys do the girl puberty film and everything, but here it's online, you can just watch it. So I asked him if he wanted to watch the girl purity film, and he said sure, and, uh, we sat there and watched it. He likes to know, of course, to know. And there was a Yeah, well, there was a point when I thought, he's putting two and two together, he's been to the store with me, like, he knows what's going on. And, um, then he looked at me and he asked me some stupid question, I thought, she's not putting two in two together at all, he doesn't know anything. So I don't know, but, um, anyway, he did, he chose both of us together.

And while he could have been being political, we give him, we give them options like that a lot, and there are a lot of times when they say, you know, I'd rather just have dad. So I don't, I don't feel like he was pressured. But on the other hand, we're, my husband and I are both registered nurses, okay, we talk about health and uncomfortable stuff all the time, we're very kind of pragmatic about pretty much everything.

0:21:23 Thomas: But it, that's, it seems like such a contrast with your reaction to porn, though, that you had I don't know, doesn't it well

0:21:28 Panel: Well, the porn thing's not actually it's not a, it's not a morality thing, it's a rule for the house, it's more like a respect for the house, um, and again, that we could chalk that up to just everyone has different house rules, but it's non-morality thing, it is not, well, if you look at that, you're wrong, it's just, I felt like his time could be better spent, you know, doing other things than going down into the a rabbit hole, and he's the kind of kid who is a little bit, he would go right into that rabbit hole and stay there forever because he'd want to know what's the next thing up. The thing is, if he chooses to look at it on his own and private in a way that I cannot track it, um, then, you know, good on him, and I'm not policing him, he has his own phone, and he has a, you know, I look at it every now and then, but he's not policed.

0:22:19 Panel: He's definitely not heavily policed, I know a lot of kids that are much more heavily policed than him, and evidently, we're in this little bubble over here.

0:22:25 Thomas: Then that sounds like well, that sounds kind of what I was saying, where you're, you're giving them the boundary, or like you kind of rephrased me saying, you're giving them to push back on, which maybe that is the best way to go. I mean, the way you first presented it, maybe I misinterpreted it, but it sounded like you reacted a lot more negatively than I might have thought an atheist parent would just in general. But if you're saying that it's more a rule of the house of what you don't want done, at least around you or in a way that you're going to be knowledgeable of, that's a little different. And maybe that is the healthy thing to where it's like, okay, he's going to do what he's going to on his own and that sort of thing. So maybe I misinterpreted your initial comments.

0:22:38 Panel: Which Well, and I can be kind of conflicted or I don't want to say inconsistent. Well, I might be inconsistent because I'm kind of lax about some things, but strict about others. But we are fairly, overall, I would say we are fairly strict parents. But in the little suburban bubble that we are in, we actually aren't really. Comparative to my peer group here, these kids are running wild and free.

0:23:51 Panel: So I think it just depends on your area. Because I know people that are just policing the hell out of their children. No,

0:24:00 Thomas: But have that have an impact on what you're doing to some some extent, because there's probably the great equalizer of, well, they're all going to go to school together. And then, you know, oh, Timmy's parents are going to find out how we treat our kid. And that's going to be that, you Know, a topic of conversation among the other parents and that sort of thing. I can imagine that that's might have some impact impact on how you raise your kids.

0:24:19 Panel: Yeah, that's might we have kids here whose parents still walk them to to the bus stop and they're in the seventh grade. Oh, Jesus. Yeah, I was horrified when, you know, when we moved to the new place, when my son started school, his first day at the new school, they had, you know, kids catching the junior high and high school bus, and their parent, like, you know, we're in an apartment complex, and they have to go out to the end of the driveway, like, by the highway, and they, I mean, they had parents of, you know, junior high in high school kids, like, sitting in their cars waiting for the kids to get on the bus. And I was like, are you, so, you know, blocking the driveway, people coming in and out of the apartment complex trying to leave for work in the morning, and these fools are sitting, and it's like, what are you doing? They're probably going to give them to school in that much time.

0:25:09 Panel: Then you have to sit in that line. Nobody wants that. Oh, yeah. And I have to say, if it came up now, he's almost 15.

0:25:19 Panel: Now, it's a different conversation than when you're 12. I was gonna say, I kind of want to go back to something that you touched on a little bit, and it sparked a thought, you know, you said, um, you know, my son is the type, and it kind of, you know, it's like, this is, I think that's an interesting take on it too because you as a parent know your child best, and like, you know, with you having two boys, like they probably have very different different personalities. And so, and yeah, so like if you caught one doing it versus the other, it may have been a completely different reaction and how you handled it because the child is different. And so I think that's why it's very interesting as a parent, like to say like, well, we have this house rule and this is what works for our family and our children.

0:26:06 Panel: But you know, you over there, you have a completely different. And he's going to react completely different and and think different thoughts and have different experiences. So it's perfectly acceptable for you guys to have a different rule that works for your family. And I think that's the interesting thing about religious morality versus a more humanist, atheistic reality. Morality, not reality. Well, yeah, it is based in reality, but morality based In real. Yeah. But because, you know, because religious morality is so static, it's black and white, there is no gray, every situation is the exact same no matter what the circumstances surrounding it are, like it's a blanket yes or no every time, whereas, you know, and that just doesn't work, you know, you know, and so, like, for a humanist secular atheist, whatever you are, parent, you know, you can evaluate the gray areas in these situations. You can put factors in like age, personality, you know, even so far, like the type of material, you know, like this particular type of, you Now, these videos, that's no, you can't watch those.

0:26:34 Thomas: Kind of both. Yeah.

0:27:22 Panel: But like, you now, this would I would be okay, you Knew, if you caught him watching something a little different, you Maybe the the conversation would have gone differently. So I think, you know, I think that's an interesting part of that and an interesting twist that, you Know, we atheist parents have to really like evaluate each part of the situation and come up with the best solution versus, you know, a religious parent who just no matter what the situation is, no matter, you know, which child, what age, what they catch them doing. It's just no, that is no until till marriage. No, you know, like, so I don't know. I thought that was an interesting little side note, footnote.

0:28:02 Thomas: Yeah, and wonder, though, how much of this is dependent on what you happen to catch your kid doing because it's It's Almost Like based On What You Were Saying, um, it's like once you get some idea that, going back to the porn topic, uh, if that happens, it's like, oh, I almost feel like based on what you said, I'd need to lay this all out now, like, because I don't, when you thought, when you said, oh, what, what you caught them watching in, in particular, like, this is fine. This isn't like, I was thinking, well, am I going to be catching my kid that many times? Or, oh, that one was good.

0:28:09 Panel: It's almost like based on what You were saying,

0:28:37 Thomas: Good job on that one.

0:28:37 Panel: Good Job On That One like

0:28:38 Thomas: I like that one, but this film, no, you've picked better.

0:28:38 Panel: That One but With this This film no You Picked Better Um

0:28:42 Thomas: And that was just the stupid thought that ran through my mind.

0:28:42 Panel: And That Was Just the Stupid thought That Ran Through My Mind but

0:28:45 Thomas: But I wonder, is it almost something that you kind of arbitrarily, because maybe your kid is, or anyone's kid happens to be some sort of ninja with a computer and you never catch them, but doesn't mean they're not doing something. So do you almost have to pick a time or an age when you think, or maybe like I believe Angie said, based on what you perceive as your kid's personality and development and all that, pick a Time when you say, maybe I should just say, apropos of nothing, here's what I think about porn.

0:29:17 Panel: Here's What I Think About Porn and

0:29:20 Thomas: And kind of lay it out. Because if you don't, I mean, I mean, they're, it's almost like out of sight, out of mind, but I wonder, I mean it could be that you would never catch your kid, but they, who knows, maybe they're into all kinds of weird stuff that you wouldn't want them to be in. So do you, do you have to take that proactive kind of time to, to, lay out all these thoughts at once?

0:29:35 Panel: Do You Have To take That Proactive kind Well,

0:29:41 Thomas: How did, yeah, go ahead.

0:29:42 Panel: I think in contrast To the previous, I guess, two questions ago where you said, how did you have the talk? I think that's a cultural artifact that we've gotten into our minds is the way it's done. Done, um, and I, I think that sort of without thinking about it, the thing that I've done with my son thus far, and I plan to do it now that I thought about it, in the future, um, is force these small conversations because of, like you said, apropos of nothing, let's just talk about tree sex, um, and then also when something specifically spurs, uh, you know, a specific discussion, you, I think it would be terrible and strange and much, much harder to process if suddenly you're like, girls have a vagina, boys have a penis, and they're like – what?

0:30:32 Panel: I did not know. Because honestly, let's go back to TMI. I did not know what nocturnal emissions are until I woke up one night and thought I'd pissed the bed. I did not know anything about such things. And it was very strange. And I was humiliated to just myself and I cleaned my bed up because my parents obviously didn't think that that talk was was of, you know, it was ready to be had yet. And I think that the talk is is sort of an artifact, like I said, whereas many, many talks where you just simply are more honest. And that's one thing that I've tried to force myself, even especially actually when it's uncomfortable.

0:31:19 Panel: I don't want to talk about it because it feels weird. Rather, just no, let's just talk about it. Let's just, let's just be honest with ourselves in front of our children, because the truth is each of them is as much a human as I am. Each of them is an important individual and is unique, just like I am or any other adult. And so there's no, when it comes to knowledge, perhaps, yes, appropriateness, this, but, but that doesn't mean that, you know, they need to have their blinders on and then suddenly, you ready, you ready now, you can see this, um, I don't know, well.

0:31:54 Thomas: Well, that's why I brought it up with respect to, uh, porn. I actually, just in case anyone's interested in my opinion, well, first I'll preface this by saying I think it greatly depends on what the state of sex ed at your public school or whatever school you're sending your kid to is. I think that should make a huge difference. I think if you, because it sounds like, Gerald, you had mentioned likely no sex ed in the Mormon state of Utah.

0:32:24 Thomas: That makes a huge different. Yeah, that makes a huge difference because I would, I never, no, none of, neither, I've said none of my parents, none OF my five parents, no.

0:32:23 Panel: State that makes A Huge I've Said None Of My Parents None Of

0:32:33 Thomas: Neither of my parents ever had any the talk with me and I don't think they needed to because there was plenty of sex ed. I think my first in, now I'm in California, but my first sex ed was in fifth grade, I believe. So I don't know how that relates relates to you guys or your schools, but from that age, and then I think it was almost once a year they would do a unit on, on sex ed. And so honestly, there was really no need for my parents to have a, the talk with me, but I do think that there, it's possible there could be a need for a, the porn talk if, if you're really worried about that kind of thing. But I, I'm honestly, my takeaway, and perhaps this will be a different takeaway than someone else might have, but but my takeaway from this experience and this parent panel is I might just not, I mean, I'm going to honestly discuss stuff and I like Gerald's approach a lot, but I don't know if I'm gonna sit any of my kids down for a talk, you know?

0:33:32 Thomas: And I don't know, it may be. Gerald, what do you guys think, Angie and Allison, does Gerald right that that might be kind of an artifact?

0:33:57 Thomas: Well, unfortunately, we're going to have to wait until next week for the answer to that question. Yeah, that's right. I don't do it often. I almost never do it. I think there's only been a couple. But we're gonna go to part three. Yeah. I actually don't like to do it, I like to get everything done in two parts. But this, I edited down as much as I could. Everything you heard was like really tightly, pretty much tightly edited for the most part. Part. Um, I, I there's just was so much good stuff. And the thing I'm thinking is we got three guests in one. So it kind of makes sense that we do three episodes. And again, I like to get stuff done in, in max of two parts, but Hey, this was just too good. I really liked this. And actually this is no, no nonsense. We turned off the mics, uh, or, I mean, that's just a dumb way of phrasing We turned off the Skype.

0:34:47 Thomas: We turned up the recording and we kept talking for like, I want to say at least a half hour. And then finally we're like, wait, we we all had to go. So this was really fun. I really liked these panelists. And it's really important info, important discussion. I mean, I'm curious to hear people's comments and their input. But yeah, we're going to go to round three. Sorry, guys, but I promise no more than round three, that's that's as far as I can go. Far as we'll go with this one. And thank you so much for listening. And of course, if you want to support the show, you could go to patreon.com/atheist and do so. I'd really appreciate that. It makes a very big difference. And yeah, just sign up for low pledge. You won't even notice.

0:35:33 Thomas: It's like a cup of coffee a month. It is nothing. You will not notice it. And I of course would love to thank my current patrons who are simply the best. Got a new patron by the name of Keith Smith. Thank you so much for signing on there. And then of course I need to thank my all-time greats, and they would be of course Zemu Zinu Jr., Adrian Borschoff, Michael, Jonathan Moyet, Jay Aldenwalt, Bangs Naughty Bits, Sean Zipperer, Peter Skelton, Brian Garefort, Dale, Matt Garrett, and Samantha. Thank You guys for patronizing me. I feel very patronized, and of course if you'd like to hear some bonus content, you can do so now. Now, I already published the one for this week, and then there will be one over the weekend for next week. And that's something you can get if you're a patron.

0:36:19 Thomas: So nice bonus content with the lovely Jake Farr-Wharton. Great guy. Okay, so thanks again for listening, and I will see you guys next week!