AS159: Tommentary; Interview with Ishmael

Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors — the audio is the record.

0:00:31 Thomas: Hello, and welcome to Atheistically Speaking. This is episode 159, and I'm your host, Thomas Smith. Now, I don't know if I sound any different. I'm in a different location. I am temporarily homeless, and this isn't the sound of me being out on the streets, because with the privilege that I have in my life, homeless means I just don't currently have a permanent physical address. But I am staying somewhere. So we'll hope that all gets resolved and the house we're trying to buy goes through and everything. But it's a bit weird, to be honest with you. But if the audio sounds any different right now, that is why. Okay, you know, let's hit that Tom and Terry music because I got opinions. I got opinions and then I have a cool interview. So you're going to get both those things.

0:01:29 Thomas: All right, Cecil the Lion. There, I said it. That's my entire opinion. Now, I tweeted exactly one thing about this, and if you follow me, I tweeted this one at T and the B, so follow me if you don't mind. And also, I have at speak atheism for this show. That Twitter I save for show-related stuff or atheism-related staff. At T and B, I tend to, though it is officially for for Thomas and the Bible. I tend to use it for any just random jokes or whatever. And I did tweet about the guy who murdered this lion. What kind of person wants to do this? And it's a thought I think a lot of people had. And then later, I think Jimmy Kimmel said that exact thing.

0:02:15 Thomas: And so I sound like I ripped him off probably, but that's a pretty basic thought. I think a whole lot of, what is it about? Why? Why would you do that? Why is it fun? And why does that is that your hobby to murder a lion? But at the same time, you may have heard on the episode with Cognitive Dissonance about Tim Hunt, which is something I reference in this interview coming up, that I think that Twitter shaming goes too far. And I think it does, because while I did tweet that thing that I tweeted, I don't think I didn't call out the guy by name and I didn't harass him. And I think that's kind of an important distinction, because what should the punishment be?

0:03:06 Thomas: I think that's the important thing to look at. Look, you and I, all of us, I think pretty much we'll see. Maybe people disagree, but we all think this guy is an asshole. I mean, we all do. Everybody that I've talked to and any, I'm sure they're probably dissenting opinions. I know there are probably fans of hunting in this country and maybe some listeners of the show. That's fine. I don't have that much against hunting, to be honest, but I don't think there's anything good about hunting a possibly endangered species and luring that endangered species out of the park where they are living, all that kind of stuff. And I also, while I admit I'm cool with hunting existing and obviously within protections of different species that we're trying to keep and all that, I still don't, I don't.

0:03:59 Thomas: That doesn't mean that I like people who do it necessarily. I almost never do because they tend to be people who are really into guns. I honest, I'll be honest with you guys, straight just me personally, I don't really like people who are into guns, not really into it. Um, that doesn't mean I, says nothing about the legality, says nothing about it. Um, there are all kinds of things that are legal. Uh, it's legal to be an asshole YouTube commenter, totally legal, it's totally legal to comment on YouTube videos with really inane BS that no one cares about and be kind of annoying about it. I don't like it. But anyway, what I'm trying to say is I just don't, I'm not into guns.

0:04:46 Thomas: I really am not. And I don't mind that they exist. I don't mind if someone's like, yeah, I have a gun for protection. I think I need it to protect myself in this country. If someone says that, okay, fine. I mean, I'm not really into it. I wouldn't do it, whatever, but there's a difference between that and then hunter guy who's like all into these different giant guns and killing things with it and like, which gun's gonna, you know, kill, kill the lion best, you know, all that kind of stuff. I'm just, I'm not into it, I'm, now I don't like that quality of a person, the same quality that can kind of kill an animal with a gun. I, I just don't like it that much. But anyway, I recognize that there are differing opinions.

0:05:31 Thomas: But for the most part, everyone I see online and in my personal interaction is universally saying this guy is an asshole, I hate him, all that stuff. And I really do think that, again, despite the fact that everyone is against this guy, I am too. I think he's an asshole, I don't know, I don't like him. I still think we've gone too far with this Twitter shaming. I think it already, very quickly, with the guy has to close his business, who knows where he is right now, who knows what his family feels like, people are tweeting his address, people are doing all kinds of stuff, that's too far. It doesn't, there, this is the thing that I don't get with people, I mean, I guess people just can't be controlled.

0:06:17 Thomas: And this may be the future, but it's a grim future that whenever we decide someone, we don't like someone. And how, how accidental is this? I mean, yes, this guy, again, acknowledging that this guy's an asshole. How many assholes are there in the world? There's like most people are assholes, approximately everyone. And, and maybe not as many to this degree. How How many assholes are there to this degree? Well, a lot. Like, there's a lot of them. And it's just a matter of chance which ones we get directed toward. And as soon as everybody gets directed toward one particular asshole, then everyone goes nuts on that guy. And to use a schoolyard term, I guess, it's unfair.

0:07:04 Thomas: It's not what this country should be about. This country and any free society should not be about witch hunting and finding someone to just ruin their lives based on, you know, one thing they did. No matter what it is. I mean, if it's murder, then they go on trial for murder and that's how that goes. It needs to be within the course of law. So, going back to what I said, what should the punishment be? The dude killed a lion. What should the punishments be? What do we decide, or maybe Zimbabwe, I don't know, depending on how the legality works, what does this country decide is the punishment? Okay, let's do that. Let's say it's a giant fine. Let's Say we find this guy, maybe somehow related to the fact that he has a giant income.

0:07:54 Thomas: Maybe we fine him a million dollars or something, or maybe we fine X percent of his income. Okay, well, that's his punishment. Let's use that money, raise awareness about endangered species, whatever you want to do with it. That's his punishment. The part where we ruin his business, we end his ability to be a productive member of society now because he can't get a job or he can't continue his practice because everyone is so outraged at him, I don't know who that benefits. You know, who does that benefit? I mean, I think society has gotten the message that we don't like trophy hunting, hopefully. And that's a good message, actually. I mean, I think it's a good message.

0:08:39 Thomas: It's up to, I guess, everyone to decide that. But where does it help to ruin the guy's business of dentistry, which doesn't have anything to do with hunting? Like, that's not, I mean, sure, if he sells guns, maybe it'd be a different story. He sells hunting rifles, maybe. But he's a dentist. Like, That's a service that people need. And he pays taxes on his income. So that this overall, that's all good for society. Everything, everything he's doing, thatS not hunting, or I shouldn't say everything, but his living and all that, that's very good for society. So how is it a good thing? Again, the realist in me, the consequentialist in me. I get the part where we're a bit outraged and we say, oh, how dare you? Everyone should say, come on, man.

0:09:27 Thomas: But the part where you're threatening him with death, we're tweeting his address, closing his business, nonstop. What does that do? It really is just more harm than good. And I don't think it's what... But we wouldn't want that for our society because, you know, I know not all anyone, any of us probably are going to go kill an endangered lion. But I don't know. I mean, what if we do something that we think is fine, but then society for some reason thinks isn't? You know, there are lots of things like that. Do we want this machinery turning on us like that? I don't think so. So, you know, what if the next moral breakthrough is something that society doesn't agree with?

0:10:14 Thomas: Then do we want this machinery of ridicule, ruining your livelihood, you know, witch hunting, all that? Do we want that to be what happens to anyone who does something we don't like? I just, it's too much. It's too many other people, murderers and rapists, thieves. There's too Many other people who are doing things that are just as bad, if not worse, who we aren't focusing on, and that's what we all need to realize. So that's the end of my commentary, and let me know what you think. But without any more of that, let's go ahead and get to the interview, which I very much enjoyed. So we'll go to that now. With me today is Ishmael, how are you doing, Ishmael?

0:11:11 Ishmael: Doing pretty good, how are you, Thomas?

0:11:12 Thomas: I'm doing well, myself, and, this is going to be fun, I'm really excited to talk to you, now, Ishmael had sent me an email, because of the episode with Rondale, right? And it sounds like you've been a bit inspired to finally go and start a podcast, and why don't you tell us a bit about that?,

0:11:25 Ishmael: Yeah, Rondale, Okay, so, yeah, well, podcast is what, I essentially started a website, and that website came from listening to podcasts, I started, I found podcasts around, like, six months ago, some girl at my job, who I later found out wasn't even an atheist, put me on to Cognitive Dissonance. Yeah.

0:11:55 Thomas: Really? That's funny.

0:11:57 Ishmael: She just found it funny and I just was, I was just addicted to it, I, I didn't know about podcasts, and so I just went through everything, I think, I don't know, there was like a hundred and something episodes, and I listened to Yeah.

0:11:57 Thomas: Huh. Nice. Of Cog Dis Or Yeah.

0:12:15 Ishmael: Of Cognitive so

0:12:15 Thomas: I think they're so, back then, wow, because I know they're on like 250 something now, so yeah.

0:12:21 Ishmael: So maybe, maybe there was 200 at the time.

0:12:22 Thomas: You're Right, yeah.

0:12:24 Ishmael: Yeah. It had to be actually more than six months because she left around probably a year ago. So I guess it was like a year before. A year ago, yeah, yeah. I'm bad with time.

0:12:24 Thomas: Okay.

0:12:34 Thomas: That's All right, I was gonna say, they did, I know, I know, Cog Dis, they haven't done that, that many episodes in six months.

0:12:40 Ishmael: Yeah. Well, they did start doubling up, adding an extra. But yeah, it had to have been at least a year, actually.

0:12:40 Thomas: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Gotcha.

0:12:49 Ishmael: And six months just sounds good, I think. I just go to that whenever. Um, and I, I mean, I listened to it all the way through, loved it. And I just, I mean, I started using glory hole, like texting people, you know, like, like exactly.

0:13:04 Thomas: And They're Like what? Is this crazy person talking about, I

0:13:08 Ishmael: I started texting a girl, a girl I was talking to. I literally would say, okay, we're not saying I love you or anything like that. We're saying glory hole now. So if I text you glory hole that's the thing. Like she did, she did.

0:13:16 Thomas: Hope She took that in the spirit in which it was intended. Okay. Good.

0:13:24 Ishmael: And she knew she better, because then I'll be like, I gotta find a cool girl then, like, no, but it was cool. So, and then I found myself going back through, like, I, I guess I listened to a couple episodes that they interviewed people, and I said, oh, let me check out their website, and I mean, let me check out their podcast, because they interviewed other podcasters, and I didn't like it, I don't remember the one that I listened to that I didn't like, so I was like, okay, I'll stick with them, they're clearly the only ones that I like, so, and when I started going back through their catalog, I said maybe I should check out a few more, like just listening to the same episode, so I found yours, and so, and then I just found a bunch of podcasts, and, and I found myself, when I was listening to your podcast, especially yours, um, I found myself talking to myself, like when you would just initially say what the story is about, like let's say when you talked about the Charlie Hebdo shooting, um, and I found myself going on these kind of rants while I'm, like, on my way to work, and like, I would literally pause the podcast and just start talking, and I'm, I'm like, and my roommate started telling me, because I'd come home and start ranting to him about, you know, what I listen to and all these stories and news and blah, blah, blah, and he was like, you probably need to record this, or you need to write it down, we're both writers, I'm writing a novel, I've written a couple of novels now, but one novel I'm working on, and he's like, why don't you create a website and just, you know, write that down?

He's like, what you're saying has interesting points, why don't you get it out there, and it was new to me because I'm used to writing fiction, and it was like, okay, I'm just gonna write this blog, that's just

0:14:24 Thomas: Yeah,

0:15:10 Ishmael: About me sharing my feelings, my point of views, and it's been so therapeutic being able to just say how I feel, and, and one of the most gratifying things, and maybe you have gotten this too by starting a podcast, you find so many like-minded people that'll, that agree with you, that are like, oh wow, I, I was feeling that way too. And like, especially you, because you try not to go, you try to stay open-minded, and you try not to go too heavy to one side, just like, oh, I'm going to get on a bandwagon and hate this and hate that, or I'm gonna defend this, you're kind of like, well, let's see both sides of the issue and let's

0:15:15 Thomas: So

0:15:47 Ishmael: See.

0:15:47 Thomas: I don't usually get the satisfaction of getting people who violently agree with me, because I'm usually too, yeah, I'm too far in the middle, I guess, but I can imagine. I can image that might be cool.

0:16:00 Ishmael: Yeah. Especially like, like I was talking to you a few minutes ago about how I, I did, I wrote my take on Martin Luther King. And as a black person saying, I'm not really a fan of Martin Luther king. Um, you know, I get a lot of negative feedback, but I also get a lot of people like, Hey, I felt that way too. It's good to see someone feel.

0:16:23 Thomas: Interesting. We're That'll be a good teaser, we're going to talk about, I, I'm definitely going to see if I can get you to talk about that post later, so that'll Be a cool teaser for that. Yeah, but That's, I see what you mean, sometimes I have, I do go out on a limb with an opinion that is maybe not going to be the popular opinion, um, but uh, you know, if that's what I think then that's what I'm going to to say and uh, and of course I, you know, I just emphasize being open to new evidence or open to new different points of view, of course I just don't like being, I don't know, I get, I get a little bored with agreement, I think that's my my problem.

0:16:29 Ishmael: Okay, cool. Okay. Okay yeah same here exactly

0:17:00 Thomas: I want to, I want to find the people who disagree and talk to them, you know? So, sorry. I'm gonna, I'm gonna have to cut you off here. This is, we're too much agreeing. No. I'm just kidding. I'm sure we could disagree on stuff, but that's not why we're here. So, yeah, so you started your website and I, I don't think you gave out the uh the URL yet, so feel free to go ahead and do that. Yeah.

0:17:04 Ishmael: Yeah yeah okay yeah The website's called angryblackrant.com, or, or that's, yeah, that's the URL, angryblackrent.com. And yeah, a lot of people, even people at work, and I think this is, it shows I have a good face at work, because when a couple of them found out the name, they're like, "Angry black rent? You know, that's so not you." And I'm like, but I am, but I'm very passionate about things. You Know, I'm Very aggressive in my beliefs. And like, in the thing that jumped out that actually made me write you was because the guy you had on what what was his name? Rondell?

0:17:40 Thomas: You sound very pleasant. You don't sound too Rondale? Rondale, huh?

0:18:01 Ishmael: Rondo. He talked about, and I hear this a lot, being an African American or being black actually probably fits more than just being African American. And not being religious, he talked about being very wary of the woman he's dating's parents and things like that. And just being within a community that must be 90-something percent religious and having to kind of tiptoe. Well, I'm the opposite. I don't tiptoed. I'm so aggressive in my atheism. Like my family, I grew up Pentecostal and I mean, speaking in tongues, it was all about, I mean I grew in like, they didn't teach about Jesus' love. They teached about the devil's going to get you kind of thing. Yeah.

0:18:22 Thomas: Right. Oh. Yeah. Right.

0:18:47 Ishmael: So I grew feeling like terrified my whole life. And it wasn't until I was about 27 until I became an atheist. And the reason why was a friend said, you know, you're so, he didn't use the word skeptic. He may have used the word cynical, actually, which I think gets confused a lot. He's like, you don't believe anything. Like you challenge teachers, like you challenge, you knows, he's like except for your belief, you just kind of go with it. And I never thought about it. I'm like, hey, that makes sense. Like why don't I question, this one thing in my life that's, yeah. And then I immediately just started to look at it and I started reading and I was like, this is crap. This is more crap than all the other stuff I don't believe in.

0:19:08 Thomas: Right. Right, yeah. Oh. Man. That's so funny.

0:19:28 Thomas: Yeah. It's great, all it had to do was kind of set your motor against religion, you know. It was like, wait a minute. And then I'm sure you just were able to pick apart all the things that don't make sense about it.

0:19:32 Ishmael: Yeah, exactly. And the thing was, he was kind of a new friend. I moved out to LA and he was this Jewish guy and he wasn't an atheist. And he just assumed I was by how I felt about things. And then when he said, wait, you're religious. And I was like, yeah, why? And he was like, that doesn't make any sense. Like, even though that's, that's like, I've learned now that doesn'T, it's not that clear, you know?

0:19:52 Thomas: That's funny. I have a couple people at work where I feel the same way, like, "Oh, based on how you talk, you seem like a skeptical person, like, I wonder if you're an atheist." But I haven't found out yet. I don't really pry too much at work, you know, but I want, there's some people where it's like, they're not, you can tell they're Not Skeptical at all. Who knows? Maybe you'll be wrong. Maybe those are the atheists somehow just by chance of, I don't know, being born in a certain family, but usually it corresponds pretty well, you Know, correlates to people who are just unskeptical about claims you make or, you Now, and sometimes it's, like, this person, oh, they' are a little skeptical of stuff. I get, oh yeah, they are not, they Are a little sceptical of, like, you know, alternative medicine, that sort of thing. I'm kind of rooting for him to be atheist, but maybe that's how your friend felt about you.

0:20:17 Ishmael: Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah. It's funny, because you learn, I learned quickly that that sounds good. And you wish it was that way. But but it's not. Two people in the media that I'm amazed aren't atheists. It's Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert. I mean, come on. You know, they talk about Stephen.

0:21:06 Thomas: Oh, right. Yeah. Colbert is really Catholic, right?

0:21:10 Ishmael: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, Colbert, they say he teaches Sunday school, and it's like, you're so cynical. I shouldn't say cynical, but you're so aware of bull and people fooling themselves.

0:21:11 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's a good way to describe it. He's really aware of just crap arguments, but yeah.

0:21:25 Ishmael: Yeah, but then he just is like, well, I believe in some ancient things And, you know, that if you were in that time, the person you are now, you'd be calling bullshit on it, you know? So that's kind of where it came from. And I, and so listening to your podcast with you talking to him and I realized I haven't heard many African-Americans say like, who come from my point of view, who are like, like I have family who won't talk to me because I'm, because not only because because I'm an atheist, but because I will talk about it, essentially. And I just hear stories the opposite way, where black atheists seem like they just want to get along. And it's like, well, I don't want to offend anyone. I'm like, I want to offend my entire family.

0:21:30 Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm.

0:22:11 Ishmael: And maybe because I feel like the way they taught me religion was child abuse, 100%. I mean, they used to give us these books, I late, I recently learned they were Chick tracks. Have you heard of what Chick tracks are? They're like these little comics where there's this guy named Jack, I think his name's Jack Chick or something like that, where it's just like these comics and it's about like, oh, this guy, he loves his wife and everything like that, and then he cheats on his wife in Armageddon comes and he's in hell burning and that's how it ends. And I grew up as a kid reading these, I was so terrified of hell. Like, it was all about, you're gonna burn forever, you know, and I had this huge weight on me, I didn't realize I had until I became an atheist, and I'm like, oh my god, like, I, I feel like there was this impending doom that just followed me, that I didn't even, it was all subconscious, you know, I didn't like look at it, but

0:22:26 Thomas: No, I don't know what that is.

0:22:49 Thomas: Oh, man. Yeah.

0:23:11 Ishmael: It was this feeling, yeah.

0:23:12 Thomas: Well, absolutely. I mean, this is branching off a bit, but if you have an opinion on it, I'd be happy to hear it. But there are people who, there are a lot of people who think that Dawkins went too far the one time he wrote about, oh, religion is child abuse. And I think it can be worse than, or not all religion, but certain, you know, like you're, you're describing where there's a horrible belief in hell and just reinforcement of, of punishment and fear and all that. And he said that he thought that was worse than like some sexual abuse that he suffered and people went nuts on him for that. That. And I think it, I mean, perhaps he could have handled it differently, but I mean I didn't go nuts on him for that because he was talking about his experience. Like, you know, his experience of this was it wasn't a big deal for him, what happened to him, but religion can be a big deal when you're raised with that scary belief in hell. And I think on some levels it can be child abuse.

I mean I mean, I think it can be, I wouldn't, it would be ridiculous to say that all religion is child abuse. I don't think anyone would make that claim. But certain ones, like what you're describing, I mean I know people who grew up just in awful fear and anxiety because of hell and that's bordering on abuse, you know.

0:23:50 Ishmael: Yeah.

0:24:32 Ishmael: No, and in my family, it I mean, my family, they believe in devil possession, I mean demon possession and all these other things, and and it was, it was child abuse. I still have very vivid dreams of Armageddon. Um, and I wake up with this feeling, I Actually,

0:24:44 Thomas: Oh wow, that the terrible movie with, yeah. It is child abuse if they make you watch the Bruce Willis, uh, movie. Over, no, it was good at the time, I kind of liked it at the same time. Yeah.

0:24:58 Ishmael: Yeah, When he says bye to Live Tyler, you know, and he's like, You know, I know.

0:25:03 Thomas: Yeah. Vivid dreams Of that, yeah. Oh.

0:25:06 Ishmael: I don't know. Um, but yeah, no, it, it really is. And the interesting thing is my dreams, which says so much about the way I was taught religion. It's about being honored, because in the religion I grew up in, and I think it's the, it's, it's the left behind people, actually. It's, I have dreams of when I'm left behind, like Jesus came and went and now it's hell on earth and it's like torture And my dreams are always, I have to get from point A to point B.

0:25:28 Thomas: I see. Oh. Yeah, yeah.

0:25:36 Ishmael: And there's just like, just, you know, actually there shouldn't, well, who knows how they take, maybe there is a lot of traffic because Christians are so unique and not the majority in this country, at least in their eyes. But yeah, but it's always great though, because I wake up with this feeling and then I remember where the feeling comes from. And I'm like, oh, and I laugh like, ah, that was stupid.

0:25:36 Thomas: So much traffic, yeah, right.

0:26:00 Thomas: Right. Yeah, I can, I can really relate to that, not, not for that same reason, but I, I know, know what you mean, when you have a dream where it's like you're still stressed out about it for a minute and then you're like, wait a minute, that doesn't, that's not real, but I Can imagine it's got to be worse for you, just because of the, you know, the reinforcement that you had over your life, be, uh, because mine will be some random crap, like, I dreamed that I, you know, committed a crime or something, and I'm like, oh, thank god, I'm not, it's not true, it's

0:26:12 Ishmael: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I've had those too. I've got those too, and then I'm like, wait. Wait, I didn't commit a crime, I don't have any. Yeah, no, I've heard that.

0:26:30 Thomas: Just like I'm just like So, yeah, and then the other funny thing about that is, if all the Christians got raptured, as many online comics have shown, it would actually be, you know, pretty cool for us, because finally, it would just be all the cool people. People. No, not really, but it would be, actually, it would be most prisoners, most inmates, you know, they would be, if all the Christians just got raptured, we'd be left with, exactly, we would be left with all the scientists, basically, like most of the scientists.

0:26:49 Ishmael: Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Everyone on death row. Yeah. No, pilots, for some reason planes always crash when the rapture comes, in movies. So, all pilots are Christian.

0:27:08 Thomas: And yeah, yeah, but I, yeah. I bet, I bet pilots aren't that religious. I don't know, but who knows?

0:27:18 Ishmael: Aren't they alcoholics, like, isn't that the thing, like, that's

0:27:22 Thomas: Well, then maybe they are religious religious, because if they're in Al-Anon, you know, then it's, But yeah, so it would be actually be pretty cool, so that's, maybe if I could have gotten a hold of like a younger you, you know, I've been like, hey, just the rapture is going to be awesome, you just, you better hope you get left behind, because it's going to be scientists, it's gonna be Ricky Gervais, it's gonna be, you know, just a bunch of cool people.

0:27:24 Ishmael: True. Uh, I probably would have beaten you up. I would that, that, that's another thing, when I was Christian, I was such a terrible person, like, like I just, I was full of like anger. Well, I, I think that has to do with life, like with my upbringing, that may be not religious, but in a way I feel like, like it was related to religious because the men in my family were, quote unquote, religious, and whatever they did was OK. So they were very physically abusive, abusive to their wives, abusive like their children.

0:27:44 Thomas: Oh, wow. Oh, oh, geez, oh, man.

0:28:16 Ishmael: But they were men of God, you know, so they got a pass.

0:28:16 Thomas: Oh. Yeah, That's not, a I wish that wasn't the first time I've heard that, you know, because that really I mean, that's, let's face it, isn't that the entire purpose of religion, I mean, hasn't it been that men write these things and then it usually just happens to skew toward men, you know, like men can do whatever they want to their wives, men can't do this, men could do that, like, unfortunately, that, you know, not all religious people are that way, but that's kind of where the roots of it are, and it's and it sad that it still plays out that way, hmm.

0:28:25 Ishmael: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. And yeah. Yeah, and because of that, I was very sexist and super homophobic. My family's from Costa Rica and Trinidad, and we have Panama, where there were Panamanians and Jamaicans.

0:28:56 Thomas: Did you did, you grow up on the East Coast, you kind of sound like you have, okay.

0:29:06 Ishmael: Yeah, I grew up, I Was born in New York, but I grew Up in Rhode Island, Providence, Rhode Island. But yeah, so I grew up around West Indians, and not to denigrate West Indians, but it's a very homophobic culture, sure, so as a kid you have to obey your, your, um, the adults in the family, but if anyone's gay, like, a gay person was the only person, even at the age of nine, you could just like treat like shit. You see a gay guy walking down the street, like, in front of your parents, you can say, ah, you little faggot, you little this, you little that.

So I had such hatred for gay, I don't even know if it was hatred, but it was okay to make fun of them, because I didn't really have hatred. Yeah, but when I went to college, it was, while I was still religious, just going to college, and, and I think you recently talked about this, getting out of your small town, you said once you met some gay people you were like, oh, oh, actually, you didn't recently talk about this, this was one of the older episodes that I was listening to, um,

0:29:07 Thomas: Yeah, okay. Yeah. Oh, man, wow, yeah, learn behavior yeah.

0:30:12 Thomas: I've talked to I have talked about a few times though, actually, yeah, uh-huh.

0:30:12 Ishmael: It was yeah. But you were actually talking about it relating to how atheists, um, should be friendly, you were talking with No Illusions, and, uh, and uh, you were saying, you, you kind of said, like, yeah, it's as simple as getting to know more gay people made you say, oh, okay, like, they're not bad, you know, like, I don't know, you know, and that's essentially what happened to me, I went to college, met gay people, and, like, oh, they're normal people, like, and then immediately the homophobia just went away, just and I'm actually kind of happy for that, because, because a lot of the other stuff, like sexism, that didn't go away completely until I lost religion and became more of a free thinker. And just seeing people outside of that kind of religious, you know, Adam and Eve and stuff like that, because that was so vital in the way I saw people, Adam and Eve and the man.

0:30:23 Thomas: Right. Yep. Yeah. Right.

0:31:03 Thomas: So did Yeah, did they, does your, did your family come from the background of, like, Eve kind of screwed the whole thing up? Yeah.

0:31:14 Ishmael: Yeah, and just from seeing it, men can treat women like shit. Women were never good enough and and that was okay you know like and so men out like men in my family I I don't have a thing for marriage and I can clearly see it has to do it I don'T KNOW ANY HEALTHY MARRIAGES IN MY ENTIRE family. I don't think I know anyone who's happily married. They're either divorced, separated, or he's just a piece of crap and treating her like nothing. So yeah

0:31:15 Thomas: Oh, man, that's horrible. Right.

0:31:35 Thomas: Right. Yeah, yeah, geez. I don't know why people don't make the connection to, like, that there's so many, that almost happens more in religion, like, you're saying, I mean, what why don't people, it's, it's like conservatives in this country, it drives me crazy that they have the image of like religion and, and being conservative, is the family values way to be.

0:32:05 Thomas: But it's like, I don't know. The divorce rate is so bad. And the way that women are treated in those situations are so bad, I mean, I don't, I like it.

0:31:46 Ishmael: Yeah yeah it's it's interesting too I recently read probably I was about to say six months ago it was probably over a year ago I read a godfather the book godfather and and it's it's not really written that well but it's a good story and at the end they talk about how how Michael's wife, Al Pacino's wife starts to go to church with Al Pacano's mother. And I related it so much to my family because I realized most of the men in my family don't go to church. It's all the women that go and the men stay home and drink and hang out. But they're in some ways still considered religious while it's all women going to church and praying for the family. And I, and that just, I related to that because that's what my family is. A bunch bunch of guys that we for some reason still saw as very religious, but they never really went, they went every once in a while, so I

0:32:22 Thomas: Oh, really? Yeah. Huh. Right.

0:33:08 Thomas: Yeah, the game is really stacked for the men. I mean it's pretty, it's a cush gig as they say. That's crazy. Well, plus there's usually football going on on Sunday. So yeah, crazy. Well, yeah. So we got off on a bit of a tangent, but so you've got angryblackrant.com and you heard Rondale and we were, when I was talking to Rondale about starting podcasts. Right. And so I think that's where we he left off.

0:33:09 Ishmael: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Uh. Yeah. Yeah.

0:33:38 Ishmael: I heard him and and yeah, I heard his story and I heard you saying like, man, that you said it multiple times, like, man, maybe. Maybe there needs to be one like, uh, Oh, and another podcast I found inspiring was the gay theist manifesto, um, which I found out from Jake far war and imaginary friend show.

0:33:48 Thomas: Yeah. Uh-huh. Jake, yeah. Yeah, I know that's a good friend of Jake's, yeah,

0:34:00 Ishmael: Yeah, exactly. Um, so, and I was like, cause initially when I, when I got into the atheist movement, um or just the atheist community, I should say, I just want, I didn't want like, it almost felt like when I started writing. I didn't want to write black, quote unquote, black literature. I just wanted to write literature. I don't want, you know, I don'T, I didn'T want to kind of marginalize myself and say, well, I need to talk about black issues and stuff like that. But I found I write a lot about black issues, just then I try to shoehorn it into something else. And I talk a lot. Oh, I shouldn'T to say, right, I, I talk about black issues and then, but I'm so, I was so afraid to write a book that kind of focused on that or write a story, but I would try and shoehorn it in. And with the atheist movement, I came in and it's been, it's, it was interesting because I, I learned, or my community, my community was essentially podcasts and, and I would call, I called, uh, oh, it, it So, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it is.

0:34:22 Thomas: Hmm. Oh, yeah yeah yeah, atheists on air. Is it not called that anymore? Or, oh, okay, yeah.

0:35:14 Ishmael: It is. But Cash isn't as involved as he used to be. And I called a few times and it was great. And it was really close to Cash. And we talked, we wrote each other a few time outside and I still am. He's like a really great guy. But then when I went to my meetup, I joined a meetup San Fernando Valley in California meetup. I was like, and just off the emails, I started to come into contact with like racist guys, like who was like who wanted to call me a Negro. Like I literally had a conversation about why he shouldn't call me Negro.

0:35:17 Thomas: Oh I see, okay.

0:35:44 Thomas: Really? For

0:35:50 Ishmael: Grow and I'm like what am I? Yes, I was like blown away. I was like, and I was like, wait, wait, wait, I, I joined this, I had to step back and say, why am I, like, I came here to feel like a part of a family, and that's how I felt with, like, cash and even cognitive dissonance, I wrote them a couple emails, and, and, and, not to, like, I don't want to say it's their entire group, but a lot of the, and a couple Facebook groups I had, like, there was a faith versus versus atheism or something like

0:35:51 Thomas: An atheist meetup group? Oh man, that's depressing. Yeah Yeah.

0:36:05 Thomas: Oh man.

0:36:22 Thomas: Oh

0:36:22 Ishmael: That, and, and the religious guy who was on there, he, he was a kook, he was a black guy, and he was talking about all this nonsense, but then the way people were responding to him, and I was responding to him too, calling him an idiot, but then it got a little racist, and I'm like, wait, what's going on here? You know, like, why are you guys say, like, we're the reason guys, we're the logic, and, and, and in both scenarios the people who were doing it were libertarians, and not to say that whole movement is that way, because it isn't. But so I, so then I kind of said to myself, like, okay, you, you in, in, In a bad way, I kind said, well, you are black. Like it's great to try and pretend you're not, or not that I was pretending, but like to not focus on it, but you have to be aware of it. And it kind of gave me a wake up call to the world. We still live in

0:36:37 Thomas: Man.

0:36:48 Thomas: Huh? Yeah.

0:37:14 Ishmael: Almost. It's almost like when Obama became president, so many people were like, yeah, yeah. And then all the racists came out of the woodworks and they're like, oh, man, like, really? Like there are people in Congress who are sending images of Obama like a monkey, you know, like so I kind of was like, OK, so maybe I should not not kind of go away from the atheist movement as a whole. But I should also try and find other groups that share my same kind of, that I have similar things with, especially race. It's almost like a gay person being in the atheist movement. But it's also good, like the Gaytheist Manifesto and transgender people as well, to, you know, hey, maybe I should meet with transgender atheists and just see how that is as well.

0:38:03 Ishmael: You know, it's not like to section yourself for from the atheist movement in general, but also find like minded people who share certain things with with you. You know. It's

0:38:13 Thomas: Yeah.

0:38:30 Thomas: Alright, well that's as good a place as I could find to pause the interview. We'll come back with part two on Thursday. So, again, thank you for listening, and thank you for supporting me, everyone who has, at patreon.com/atheist. I really appreciate that support. It means a lot, keeps the show going, so please go there to pledge if you don't mind. And also, if you have any opinions on anything I've said or we covered in this episode, there's lots of ways to contact me, you know, know, Twitter at At Speak Atheism, you can email me atheisticallyspeaking at gmail.com. For some reason, no one can ever find that email. I don't know why. Maybe I haven't listed it properly. Facebook.com slash atheistically speaking. You've got all kinds of options.

0:39:16 Thomas: Patreon, if you message me on Patreon. If you're a patron, that's probably one of the best ways. If you have any opinions, and then also atheisticallyspeaking.com, you comment on whatever episode you have an opinion on. So those are all the ways you can contact me. And I try to reply to all of them. So it gets a little exhausting sometimes, but I do my best, especially if it's a good comment. I at least read every single one of them, I may not have time to comment on everything, but it will be seen. And sometimes it'll be brought up on the show. So there you go. All Alright, thank you for listening and I will see you with part two of Ishmael's interview on Thursday.